at all comparable to what's done frequently in, say, Spanish which uses the definite article with an infinitive; this, in turn, being translated as a present participle; to wit, "the being equal with God"? Though I use the NASB and ESV, it seems to me the KJV's more economical and direct translation (which is supported by Dr. Alfred Marshall's literal translation in my Greek-English interlinear and John Calvin's translation in his commentary on the passage) is stronger.to einai isa thew
Use of definite article with infinitive
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Use of definite article with infinitive
I'm a relative newbie to Greek; I know enough to recognize words and, sometimes tenses and case endings. My question is regarding Philippians 2:6: Is the structure
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Re: Use of definite article with infinitive
Hi, George.
It's a courtesy on B-Greek that we post the Greek for the verse in question, so I'll provide that here:
In this case, the verb ἡγήσατο takes two objects in the accusative, the one being held or regarded as something else. For example, you might say ἡγήσατο αὐτὸν βασιλέα, meaning that "he held him to be king."
The question is what he ("Jesus Christ" from the previous verse) thought of being equal with God. Some people might think that equality with God is something to be grasped and sought after, but the text is saying that Jesus didn't think of it that way - and instead humbled himself, κτλ.*
Hope this helps.
* By the way, κτλ. is the Greek way of writing etc. It's short for καὶ τὰ λοιπά ("and the rest"), which corresponds to Latin et cetera ("and other things").
It's a courtesy on B-Greek that we post the Greek for the verse in question, so I'll provide that here:
ὃς ἐν μορφῇ θεοῦ ὑπάρχων οὐχ ἁρπαγμὸν ἡγήσατο τὸ εἶναι ἴσα θεῷ.
Of course, the phrase in question is the last one: τὸ εἶναι ἴσα θεῷ. It's common for the neuter article to attach to an infinitive. It functions like a gerund in English, allowing the verb to behave like a noun (that is, serve as the subject of a verb, object of a verb, object of a preposition, etc.).In this case, the verb ἡγήσατο takes two objects in the accusative, the one being held or regarded as something else. For example, you might say ἡγήσατο αὐτὸν βασιλέα, meaning that "he held him to be king."
"He did not consider (οὐχ... ἡγήσατο) being equal to God (τὸ εἶναι ἴσα θεῷ) robbery (ἁρπαγμόν)."
Some moralist might say: "I don't consider all lying a sin." A proud mother might say: "I consider my son a genius."The question is what he ("Jesus Christ" from the previous verse) thought of being equal with God. Some people might think that equality with God is something to be grasped and sought after, but the text is saying that Jesus didn't think of it that way - and instead humbled himself, κτλ.*
Hope this helps.
* By the way, κτλ. is the Greek way of writing etc. It's short for καὶ τὰ λοιπά ("and the rest"), which corresponds to Latin et cetera ("and other things").
Jason A. Hare
The Hebrew Café
Tel Aviv, Israel
The Hebrew Café
Tel Aviv, Israel
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Re: Use of definite article with infinitive
Jason's response is great. I'll just add that in these constructions the topic (the logical subject) tends to get the article and focus (the logical predicate) tends to lack the article. Thus, "he did not consider being-equal-to-God to be robbery," not "he did not consider robbery to be being-equal-to-God." So the KJV, though nicely worded, seems to reverse the logical subject and predicate.
Stephen C. Carlson, Ph.D.
Melbourne, Australia
Melbourne, Australia
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Re: Use of definite article with infinitive
Oh, indeed. I haven't read the King James Version in so long (any English Bible, really) that I forgot how it dealt with it. I just looked it up, and I absolutely agree. That's why I translated it like I did above. Thanks for pointing this out!Stephen Carlson wrote:Jason's response is great. I'll just add that in these constructions the topic (the logical subject) tends to get the article and focus (the logical predicate) tends to lack the article. Thus, "he did not consider being-equal-to-God to be robbery," not "he did not consider robbery to be being-equal-to-God." So the KJV, though nicely worded, seems to reverse the logical subject and predicate.
Jason A. Hare
The Hebrew Café
Tel Aviv, Israel
The Hebrew Café
Tel Aviv, Israel
Re: Use of definite article with infinitive
Actually the KJV didn't reverse the subject and predicate. It says "thought it not robbery to be equal with God", where "it" has to refer to "to be equal with God", and thus conveys the correct subject and predicate. However, it did change "did not consider it X to be Y" to "considered it not X to be Y", which is an interpretative assumption.Jason Hare wrote:Oh, indeed. I haven't read the King James Version in so long (any English Bible, really) that I forgot how it dealt with it. I just looked it up, and I absolutely agree. That's why I translated it like I did above. Thanks for pointing this out!Stephen Carlson wrote:Jason's response is great. I'll just add that in these constructions the topic (the logical subject) tends to get the article and focus (the logical predicate) tends to lack the article. Thus, "he did not consider being-equal-to-God to be robbery," not "he did not consider robbery to be being-equal-to-God." So the KJV, though nicely worded, seems to reverse the logical subject and predicate.
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Re: Use of definite article with infinitive
David is correct regarding the English of the AV [AKA: KJV]. I should know since I have been speaking and reading English all of my nearly 39 years (Wanna buy a bridge?).
george
gfsomsel
… search for truth, hear truth,
learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
defend the truth till death.
- Jan Hus
gfsomsel
… search for truth, hear truth,
learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
defend the truth till death.
- Jan Hus
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Re: Use of definite article with infinitive
I had parsed it as "thought it not: robbery to be equal with God", but your parsing "thought it not robbery: to be equal with God" also seems possible, with a different scope of the negation.David Lim wrote:Actually the KJV didn't reverse the subject and predicate. It says "thought it not robbery to be equal with God", where "it" has to refer to "to be equal with God", and thus conveys the correct subject and predicate. However, it did change "did not consider it X to be Y" to "considered it not X to be Y", which is an interpretative assumption.
Stephen C. Carlson, Ph.D.
Melbourne, Australia
Melbourne, Australia
Re: Use of definite article with infinitive
I see. But I think the verb in the form "thought it ..." needs two parameters in the form "thought it X to be Y". If this was true in the time of the KJV, your first parsing would not be possible. I can't say I am sure though, as I never spoke that ancient an English.Stephen Carlson wrote:I had parsed it as "thought it not: robbery to be equal with God", but your parsing "thought it not robbery: to be equal with God" also seems possible, with a different scope of the negation.David Lim wrote:Actually the KJV didn't reverse the subject and predicate. It says "thought it not robbery to be equal with God", where "it" has to refer to "to be equal with God", and thus conveys the correct subject and predicate. However, it did change "did not consider it X to be Y" to "considered it not X to be Y", which is an interpretative assumption.
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Re: Use of definite article with infinitive
David Lim wrote:
I never thought of this verse in any other way than as understanding the articular infinitive phrase as an apositive to "it." What can I say? But I grew up using the AV so I was used to its style.
Actually, that is modern English. Chaucer is Middle English (and it's still understandable as written).I see. But I think the verb in the form "thought it ..." needs two parameters in the form "thought it X to be Y". If this was true in the time of the KJV, your first parsing would not be possible. I can't say I am sure though, as I never spoke that ancient an English.
I never thought of this verse in any other way than as understanding the articular infinitive phrase as an apositive to "it." What can I say? But I grew up using the AV so I was used to its style.
george
gfsomsel
… search for truth, hear truth,
learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
defend the truth till death.
- Jan Hus
gfsomsel
… search for truth, hear truth,
learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
defend the truth till death.
- Jan Hus
Re: Use of definite article with infinitive
Oh really? Do you recall offhand an example (from the KJV) that has "thought it X" (with only one parameter)? My first Bible version was the KJV too, haha..George F Somsel wrote:David Lim wrote:Actually, that is modern English. Chaucer is Middle English (and it's still understandable as written).I see. But I think the verb in the form "thought it ..." needs two parameters in the form "thought it X to be Y". If this was true in the time of the KJV, your first parsing would not be possible. I can't say I am sure though, as I never spoke that ancient an English.
I never thought of this verse in any other way than as understanding the articular infinitive phrase as an apositive to "it." What can I say? But I grew up using the AV so I was used to its style.
δαυιδ λιμ