KOINE PHRASEBOOK

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Re: KOINE PHRASEBOOK

Postby David Lim » January 13th, 2013, 12:18 pm

Paul-Nitz wrote:
David Lim wrote: but why "τα περι σου"? Shouldn't it be "περι σεαυτου" (John 1:22)?

I took εἴπε ἡμᾶς τὰ περι σου from Eph 6:22, but περι σεαυτοῦ is simpler.

Eph 6:22 seems to me to be referring to "the things that are concerning us" / "what's going on here with us" rather than having to do with a (broader) self-introduction. But I'm not sure whether my impression is accurate, so please tell me if you know of contrary examples. :)
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Re: KOINE PHRASEBOOK-Why? Because.

Postby Paul-Nitz » January 26th, 2013, 7:37 am

Here's the sort of question we ask when trying to communicate with Ancient Greek, but the sort of question a grammar does not answer in one place. What would you change or add?

How to answer “why?”(the cause) in Ancient Greek:

When the answer to “why?” is a sentence (clause), use:

    ὅτι (διοτι, καθοτι) - because (literally “that”)
    James 4:3 αἰτεῖτε καὶ οὐ λαμβάνετε διότι κακῶς αἰτεῖσθε… You ask and do not have because you ask badly.
    ἐπεί (ἐπειδη, επειδηπερ) – since, seeing that (literally? “on that”)
    John 13:29 τινὲς γὰρ ἐδόκουν, ἐπεὶ τὸ γλωσσόκομον εἶχεν Ἰούδας, ὅτι λέγει αὐτῷ [ὁ] Ἰησοῦς… Some were thinking, seeing that Judas had the purse, that he Jesus said to him…
    γαρ – for (In the sense of “I hit him for he hit me first,” not “I did it for him”).
    Colossians 3:20 Τὰ τέκνα, ὑπακούετε τοῖς γονεῦσιν κατὰ πάντα, τοῦτο γὰρ εὐάρεστόν ἐστιν ἐν κυρίῳ. Children, obey parents in everything, for this is pleasing to the Lord.
When the answer to “why?” is a single thing (such as a noun), use:
    διά – because (literally “through”)
    Matthew 6:25 Διὰ τοῦτο λέγω ὑμῖν• μὴ μεριμνᾶτε Because of this I tell you, do not worry…
    ἐπί – because (literally “on”)
    Matthew 7:28 ἐξεπλήσσοντο οἱ ὄχλοι ἐπὶ τῇ διδαχῇ αὐτοῦ• The crowds, being amazed because of his teaching.
    ἀπό – because (literally “from”)
    Matthew 10:28 καὶ μὴ φοβεῖσθε ἀπὸ τῶν ἀποκτεννόντων τὸ σῶμα… Do not be afraid because of those who kill the body..
    ἕνεκεν – because (literally? “in that”)
    Matthew 10:39 ὁ ἀπολέσας τὴν ψυχὴν αὐτοῦ ἕνεκεν ἐμοῦ εὑρήσει αὐτήν. The one who loses his life because of me will find it.
    κατὰ - according to (literaly “down”)
    Matthew 19:3 εἰ ἔξεστιν ἀνθρώπῳ ἀπολῦσαι τὴν γυναῖκα αὐτοῦ κατὰ πᾶσαν αἰτίαν; [they asked] if it is permitted for a man to let loose his wife because of every reason (for any reason).
    ὑπὲρ – because (literally “over”)
    Acts 21:13 ἀποθανεῖν εἰς Ἰερουσαλὴμ ἑτοίμως ἔχω ὑπὲρ τοῦ ὀνόματος τοῦ κυρίου Ἰησοῦ. I am ready to die in Jerusalem because of the name of the Lord Jesus.
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Re: KOINE PHRASEBOOK

Postby RandallButh » January 27th, 2013, 4:07 am

Ναί, ὦ Παῦλε, τούτου χάριν.
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Re: KOINE PHRASEBOOK-Why? Because.

Postby David Lim » January 28th, 2013, 12:24 am

Paul-Nitz wrote:
    γαρ – for (In the sense of “I hit him for he hit me first,” not “I did it for him”).
    Colossians 3:20 Τὰ τέκνα, ὑπακούετε τοῖς γονεῦσιν κατὰ πάντα, τοῦτο γὰρ εὐάρεστόν ἐστιν ἐν κυρίῳ. Children, obey parents in everything, for this is pleasing to the Lord.

I would have thought that "γαρ" is more vague like "for the reason that" and would not usually be used in places with a direct attribution of cause like "I hit him because he hit me first" but rather "It was fair that I hit him, for he hit me first."
Paul-Nitz wrote:When the answer to “why?” is a single thing (such as a noun), use:
    [...]
    ἀπό – because (literally “from”)
    Matthew 10:28 καὶ μὴ φοβεῖσθε ἀπὸ τῶν ἀποκτεννόντων τὸ σῶμα… Do not be afraid because of those who kill the body..

I would exclude "απο" because I think it generally conveys some kind of direction, in this case something like "Do not shrink away from ...". But "εκ" can be used for a logical source of something, such as "εκ των λοιπων φωνων" (Rev 8:13) and "εκ των πονων" (Rev 16:11).
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Re: KOINE PHRASEBOOK

Postby Paul-Nitz » February 12th, 2013, 1:39 pm

τί δʼ ἐστὶ χρῆμα;
what is the matter?
Source: Liddel

ὀρθῶς, πλὴν ὅτι...
correct, except that…
Source: "correct" and "except that" are found in Liddell, but not shown together like this.
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Re: KOINE PHRASEBOOK

Postby Alan Patterson » February 13th, 2013, 7:12 am

Paul,

You wrote:

When the answer to “why?” is a single thing (such as a noun), use:

διά – because (literally “through”)
Matthew 6:25 Διὰ τοῦτο λέγω ὑμῖν• μὴ μεριμνᾶτε Because of this I tell you, do not worry…
ἐπί – because (literally “on”)


I am a little surprised at your designations: literally

Can you explain to me what you mean by "literally" in these definitions? It appears to me that you are saying something like, διά literally means X, but it can also "mean" Y or Z. I am just looking for clarification since in my recent studies I have somewhat come across this issue/debate. Would you say that διά means X, such as it would if found in a vacuum (with no usage/context)? Do cases change their literal meaning? I think these are helpful questions for the composition of this Koine Phrasebook.
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Re: KOINE PHRASEBOOK

Postby Stephen Carlson » February 13th, 2013, 8:07 am

Alan Patterson wrote:Can you explain to me what you mean by "literally" in these definitions? It appears to me that you are saying something like, διά literally means X, but it can also "mean" Y or Z. I am just looking for clarification since in my recent studies I have somewhat come across this issue/debate. Would you say that διά means X, such as it would if found in a vacuum (with no usage/context)? Do cases change their literal meaning? I think these are helpful questions for the composition of this Koine Phrasebook.


Actually, the problem of a "literal" meaning is a tough problem in semantics. I would suggest that this topic be given its own thread, if pursued.
Stephen C. Carlson, Ph.D. (Duke, New Testament)
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Re: KOINE PHRASEBOOK

Postby Paul-Nitz » February 13th, 2013, 10:45 am

Thanks for your comments.

The more scholarly debate might take place in response to the recent post about a new book that studies the history of prepositions. viewtopic.php?f=12&t=1712

For me, and my students, it's helpful to think of the basic meaning of the case of the "object of preposition" (a misnomer) and modify it with the basic (literal) meaning of the preposition. The end result is not the basic (literal) meaning of the preposition, but a nuance of it. That simple concept, which I first learned from AT Robertson, has helped me tremendously in understanding and remembering the prepositions, rather than being told arbitrarily that "in this case, δια means 'because,'" something I could never get my head around.
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Re: KOINE PHRASEBOOK

Postby cwconrad » February 13th, 2013, 11:36 am

Paul-Nitz wrote:Thanks for your comments.

The more scholarly debate might take place in response to the recent post about a new book that studies the history of prepositions. viewtopic.php?f=12&t=1712

For me, and my students, it's helpful to think of the basic meaning of the case of the "object of preposition" (a misnomer) and modify it with the basic (literal) meaning of the preposition. The end result is not the basic (literal) meaning of the preposition, but a nuance of it. That simple concept, which I first learned from AT Robertson, has helped me tremendously in understanding and remembering the prepositions, rather than being told arbitrarily that "in this case, δια means 'because,'" something I could never get my head around.


Well, quite frankly, I think this gets to a core problem with the "Koine Phrasebook" -- that there is a "basic meaning" to any particular element of language. It's akin to the problem of "literal translations" and to the problem of interlinear versions wherein each word or phrase in the original language is glossed below with a single word or phrase in the target language. It is the notion that any whole proposition formulated in one language is equivalent to the sum of the "basic meanings" of all the elements in that whole proposition. To the extent that a phrasebook must be built, to a considerable extent, on the basis of idiomatic expressions, I wonder whether this notion of "basic meaning" is adequate. The fundamental polysemy of expressions and usages in a language as rich as Greek renders the construction of such a phrasebook a rather risky undertaking.
Carl W. Conrad
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Re: KOINE PHRASEBOOK

Postby Paul-Nitz » February 13th, 2013, 12:21 pm

Thanks for your critcism, Carl. I think you are right. It's not worth the effort to compile anything further. I have some good phrases in the Excel file (see link in previous post) and I'm satisfied with it. It contains basic classroom language, greetings, names for days and months, and so forth. There's not much further to go with it.

I may still have a question on how to express a thought in Greek. As one of the moderators, would you feel a question like that is welcome on B-Greek? I would certainly understand if it wasn't. Probably you are being too polite to say it, but this thread doesn't really fit B-Greek at all. After all, the forum was not founded to discuss how to express Greek, or for discussing pedagogy, for that matter. It was founded to discuss the Biblical text.

For the benefit of those who might want to discuss these types of questions further, the Textkit forum has a composition board. There is also the Google group site for discussing communicative approaches to teaching Greek - Ancient Greek Best Practices.
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