Errors In Revelation?

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MAubrey
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Re: Errors In Revelation?

Post by MAubrey » November 10th, 2017, 4:45 pm

I step out for a just a few days and we're already at three (and now four) pages???
Mike Aubrey, Linguist
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RandallButh
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Re: Errors In Revelation?

Post by RandallButh » November 10th, 2017, 5:55 pm

it's taken time to approach agreement on facts.

Barry Hofstetter
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Re: Errors In Revelation?

Post by Barry Hofstetter » November 12th, 2017, 10:02 am

Peter Streitenberger wrote:
November 10th, 2017, 7:15 am
Randall,
>The same is true for τὴν κιβωτὸν ἀντίμιμον. Fully feminine.
Are you sure on that one? Could be but I`m not, have to check the class of this adjective, but which book I can consult, at first glance - is it irregular - and in reality feminine? Not sure, at least I. Why this? P.

After a first check: a two ender - but "fully feminine" ? No, as the mas. has the same ending, right? So spurious - 50:50. I included it as example, tagged (of course correctly :-), as masculine), BibleWorks rules!
No, it's not spurious, and it's not 50:50. The word is feminine. You are looking for something to clarify? Then look the word up in any lexicon. Examine how it's treated throughout Greek literature. Remember also that you are dealing with adjectives which use the same set of endings for masculine and feminine.

ἠχὴ ἀντίμιμος but ποταμὸς ἀντίμιμος.

You are essentially trying to defend an indefensible position.
N.E. Barry Hofstetter
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
ἐγὼ δὲ διδάσκω τε καὶ γράφω ἵνα τὰ ἀξιώτερα μανθάνω

Peter Streitenberger
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Re: Errors In Revelation?

Post by Peter Streitenberger » November 15th, 2017, 6:19 pm

Good to see you back, Barry!
>Then look the word up in any lexicon
I did, but I found in the LS, that it is a two ender (do not know how you English speaking folks name it), that means: the feminine and the masculine form is one and the same. So not to determine. If I am wrong, what is correct? Errare humanum est, but as you could, one or I have to learn where the error is, in this case I am not able to decide as the morphology says feminine=masculine. Yours Peter

Barry Hofstetter
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Re: Errors In Revelation?

Post by Barry Hofstetter » November 15th, 2017, 10:24 pm

Peter Streitenberger wrote:
November 15th, 2017, 6:19 pm
Good to see you back, Barry!
>Then look the word up in any lexicon
I did, but I found in the LS, that it is a two ender (do not know how you English speaking folks name it), that means: the feminine and the masculine form is one and the same. So not to determine. If I am wrong, what is correct? Errare humanum est, but as you could, one or I have to learn where the error is, in this case I am not able to decide as the morphology says feminine=masculine. Yours Peter
If the word is consistently treated as feminine throughout Greek literature, then it should be a no-brainer that it should be read as a feminine even when modified by a two termination ( :D ) adjective.
N.E. Barry Hofstetter
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Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
ἐγὼ δὲ διδάσκω τε καὶ γράφω ἵνα τὰ ἀξιώτερα μανθάνω

Peter Streitenberger
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Re: Errors In Revelation?

Post by Peter Streitenberger » November 16th, 2017, 5:45 am

Let us come to the crucial point:
if the accusative ἀντίμιμον in the phrase κιβωτὸν ἀντίμιμον is, as you and Randall claim, 100% feminine and 100% no masculine, then how would the masculine form be: I say it is one and the same, namely ἀντίμιμον. So not to decide, which gender.
So I see no reason to change my view, only if, as you could, if possible, another masculine form can be named, but it would be ἀντίμιμον, or I have to go back to seminary, could be necessary maybe, in case you can rule out the objection, I raise, Randall is invited as well.
By that a good morning from Germany! Yours Peter

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Re: Errors In Revelation?

Post by Jason Hare » November 16th, 2017, 10:57 am

Peter Streitenberger wrote:
November 16th, 2017, 5:45 am
if the accusative ἀντίμιμον in the phrase κιβωτὸν ἀντίμιμον is, as you and Randall claim, 100% feminine and 100% no masculine, then how would the masculine form be: I say it is one and the same, namely ἀντίμιμον. So not to decide, which gender.
What we're looking for is a mismatch in gender, in order to compare with that verse in the Revelation that was brought up. There is no mismatch in the phrase that you're now trying to say is unclear. It is feminine - period - because the headnoun is feminine and the adjectives are in the proper form to agree with the headnoun, even if they are forms that could also be used with masculine nouns. This is not an ambiguous example. The gender of the noun phrase (as per its headnoun) is FEMININE. No ambiguity. No question.

Jason
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Peter Streitenberger
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Re: Errors In Revelation?

Post by Peter Streitenberger » November 16th, 2017, 5:40 pm

How then, if clear, would the masculine form be? If you can tell me that, I would believe. In my thinking it is one and the same form. To the other clear examples of distinct masculine adjectives please see some examples printed above. I don`t count that as proof at all, but as there are clear masculine examples, I would like to have a different morphological masculine form of it. And that would be? P.

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Re: Errors In Revelation?

Post by Barry Hofstetter » November 16th, 2017, 7:14 pm

Peter, I have to concur with Jason on this. You are literally a minority of one if you hold to this position, as anyone who has studied the language knows. You have already been corrected and had it explained to you. I would expect any beginning student now to have grasped what his error is and to have corrected it. One more time: the nouns in question are feminine and consistently take feminine modifiers. A small minority of adjectives in Greek are called two termination -- they have one set of endings for both the feminine and the masculine. When such an adjective modifies a second declension feminine noun, one cannot by looking at the form automatically tell if it is in fact masculine or feminine, but anyone who knows the language knows that it's feminine. Here is an example with κιβωτός:

ὥσπερ γὰρ ὁ Σιμωνίδης ἔλεγε παίζων τὴν τοῦ ἀργυρίου κιβωτὸν εὑρίσκειν ἀεὶ πλήρη τὴν δὲ τῶν χαρίτων κενήν...

Notice that it's modified by πλήρη which can be either masculine or feminine, but that the rest of its modifiers are morphologically only feminine.

Plutarch. (1891). Moralia. (G. N. Bernardakis, Ed.) (Vol. 3, p. 436). Medford, MA: Teubner.
N.E. Barry Hofstetter
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
ἐγὼ δὲ διδάσκω τε καὶ γράφω ἵνα τὰ ἀξιώτερα μανθάνω

Jonathan Robie
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Re: Errors In Revelation?

Post by Jonathan Robie » November 16th, 2017, 7:29 pm

Barry Hofstetter wrote:
November 16th, 2017, 7:14 pm
One more time: the nouns in question are feminine and consistently take feminine modifiers. A small minority of adjectives in Greek are called two termination -- they have one set of endings for both the feminine and the masculine. When such an adjective modifies a second declension feminine noun, one cannot by looking at the form automatically tell if it is in fact masculine or feminine, but anyone who knows the language knows that it's feminine. Here is an example with κιβωτός:

ὥσπερ γὰρ ὁ Σιμωνίδης ἔλεγε παίζων τὴν τοῦ ἀργυρίου κιβωτὸν εὑρίσκειν ἀεὶ πλήρη τὴν δὲ τῶν χαρίτων κενήν...

Notice that it's modified by πλήρη which can be either masculine or feminine, but that the rest of it's modifiers are morphologically only feminine.
I think this is a very clear formulation of what most people are trying to say in this thread.

Peter - is this clear to you now? If not, may I suggest that we take it offline? I don't feel like much new is being said now.
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