Accents and article

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Andrew Chapman
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Accents and article

Post by Andrew Chapman » November 30th, 2017, 1:00 pm

In footnote 'b' to John 15.25 of the so-called 'Passion Translation', ( John:Eternal Love) Brian Simmons says that:

ἐμίσησάν με δωρεάν
can also be translated

"They hated my undeserved gifts".
In explaining why this cannot be so, I would like to give a Greek translation of his English. I am not sure whether it needs an article and am clueless about accents. My best try is:

ἐμίσησάν τὰς δωρεάς μου

I would appreciate whatever corrections it needs. Thanks very much,

Andrew
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timothy_p_mcmahon
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Re: Accents and article

Post by timothy_p_mcmahon » November 30th, 2017, 11:56 pm

Looks good to me except for minor issues with the accents.

ἐμίσησάν should not have an accent on the alpha
the accent on δωρεάς should be acute because μου is a clitic
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Jason Hare
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Re: Accents and article

Post by Jason Hare » December 1st, 2017, 2:48 am

Just to be clear:
The accent on ἐμίσησάν με δωρεάν is correct. The acute on ἐμίσησάν comes from με.

You should show your friend this definition from LSJ:

II. acc. δωρεάν as Adv., as a free gift, freely, Hdt.5.23, prob. in And.1.4; μηδὲν δ. πράττειν Plb. 18.34.7, cf. LXX Jb.1.9; δ. λειτουργεῖν Test.Epict.4.27, cf. Inscr.Prien. 4.17 (iv B.C.); so κατὰ δωρεάν IG7.2711.13, al. (Acraeph., i A. D.); ἐν δωρεᾷ προσνεῖμαι Plb.22.5.4; but γῆν (ἀμπελῶνα, etc.) ἐν δωρεᾷ ἔχειν to hold land by a royal grant, PRev. Laws 36.15 (iii B.C.), cf. 43.11, 44.3. 2. to no purpose, for naught, Ep.Gal.2.21.

Your verse goes along with the last definition, meaning "for no purpose" or "for nothing."
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Jason A. Hare
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timothy_p_mcmahon
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Re: Accents and article

Post by timothy_p_mcmahon » December 1st, 2017, 2:52 am

Thanks, Jason, for the clarification. The second accent on ἐμίσησάν in the text of John is correct; it's that accent in Andrew's translation that's superfluous.
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Barry Hofstetter
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Re: Accents and article

Post by Barry Hofstetter » December 1st, 2017, 6:50 am

With regard to "The Passion Translation" in general, this review (which abundantly confirmed my suspicions from my brief examination):

http://thinktheology.co.uk/blog/article ... ranslation

Simmons responds:

http://thinktheology.co.uk/blog/article ... s_responds

And finally:

http://thinktheology.co.uk/blog/article ... n_simmons1

Also, I think, a good model on how people of faith and good will may respectfully engage in debate.
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N.E. Barry Hofstetter
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Andrew Chapman
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Re: Accents and article

Post by Andrew Chapman » December 1st, 2017, 8:57 am

Thanks a lot.

Whoops, I actually knew that there shouldn't be a second accent on ἐμίσησάν, I must have copied and pasted it and was thinking mainly about δωρεάς. Thanks, Timothy, for explaining why it should be acute (though it doesn't look acute in this font).

I thought Andrew Wilson let Brian Simmons get away with too much. I prefer George Athas's passionate tirade:
This translation of the Song of Songs is truly awful. As a professor of biblical studies who works with the original languages, I can assure you that this translation does not reflect either the words or the meaning of Song of Songs, contrary to what it claims. It’s not that the translation is careless—rather, it’s eisegesis. It is imposing pre-conceived ideas onto the text and then claiming that the change is due to the translation strategy. It’s terrible!

I’m honestly stunned at how off the mark this translation is. It claims to be bringing out the real meaning of Song of Songs, but it’s really just thrusting someone’s own wishful ideas about it onto the readership. If you want to understand Song of Songs, then please, avoid this translation. This will only dupe you into thinking you know the Song of Songs better after reading this “translation,” because it sounds fresh and cogent. But you won’t. You’ll only know the translator’s fanciful ideas about the book—not the book itself. I’m saddened and almost angry that so many have already been duped by this translation already. Please, please, please in God’s name avoid this so-called “translation.” It is a travesty to biblical translation.
Andrew
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Barry Hofstetter
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Re: Accents and article

Post by Barry Hofstetter » December 1st, 2017, 12:13 pm

Andrew Chapman wrote:
December 1st, 2017, 8:57 am

I thought Andrew Wilson let Brian Simmons get away with too much. I prefer George Athas's passionate tirade:
George needs to tell us how he really feels. :lol:
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N.E. Barry Hofstetter
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Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
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Andrew Chapman
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Re: Accents and article

Post by Andrew Chapman » December 1st, 2017, 1:02 pm

George needs to tell us how he really feels. :lol:
I have tried to write this up in a way that might possibly be comprehensible to somebody that doesn't know Greek, here. I have attempted to be temperate.

Andrew
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Barry Hofstetter
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Re: Accents and article

Post by Barry Hofstetter » December 1st, 2017, 6:20 pm

Andrew Chapman wrote:
December 1st, 2017, 1:02 pm

I have tried to write this up in a way that might possibly be comprehensible to somebody that doesn't know Greek, here. I have attempted to be temperate.

Andrew
I think you have succeeded. When I looked these things over, I was giving the benefit of the doubt that we had someone who was simply paraphrasing heavily, but a closer examination does raise serious questions about the competence of the translator.
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N.E. Barry Hofstetter
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Andrew Chapman
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Re: Accents and article

Post by Andrew Chapman » December 4th, 2017, 9:42 am

Thank you, sir, much appreciated. One thing that awakened my interest was noticing that in the 2014 edition of John's Gospel he transliterated ἑώρακα in John 1.34 as ‘ophesthe’. I suggest a possible partial explanation here, based on the occurrence of ὄψεσθε in John 1.39.

Andrew
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