επι της θαλασση

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JamesAH
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Joined: May 4th, 2018, 9:44 am

επι της θαλασση

Post by JamesAH » May 4th, 2018, 9:49 am

Revelation 5:13 there is this part επι της θαλασση which translated is "on the sea". I'm wondering why John would use επι instead of εν or εις because it doesn't make sense when it's translated "on the sea" as far as the created things mentioned in the verse. I would think that "in the sea" would make more sense.
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Barry Hofstetter
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Joined: May 6th, 2011, 1:48 pm

Re: επι της θαλασση

Post by Barry Hofstetter » May 5th, 2018, 8:37 am

I thought I saw this question recently somewhere else? Yes, it is a somewhat unusual use of the preposition in an author known for using what even his contemporaries would regard as non-standard Greek. Pretty clear nonetheless what he means, though.
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N.E. Barry Hofstetter
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Jacob Rhoden
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Re: επι της θαλασση

Post by Jacob Rhoden » October 23rd, 2018, 7:28 pm

Interesting question, I have no time to reflect on this more right now, but he is talking about what he can see in a vision, assumedly from the perspective of outside of the water. So my initial reaction is that choice of επι would simply suggest a precise description of what he can see. A careful avoidance to describe what is occurring inside the sea, simply because he cannot see it. What do you think?
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Saboi
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Joined: October 26th, 2018, 6:42 am

Re: επι της θαλασση

Post by Saboi » February 3rd, 2019, 4:52 pm

It should read "By the sea and all that is in them"

ἐπὶ τῆς θαλάσσης ἅ ἐστίν καὶ τὰ ἐν αὐτοῖς πάντα
על־הים־אשר־ובם־כל
על־הים־וכל־אשר־בם
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Lee Magee

Bill Ross
Posts: 94
Joined: August 12th, 2012, 6:26 pm

Re: επι της θαλασση

Post by Bill Ross » March 10th, 2019, 1:09 pm

Saboi wrote:
February 3rd, 2019, 4:52 pm
It should read "By the sea and all that is in them"

ἐπὶ τῆς θαλάσσης ἅ ἐστίν καὶ τὰ ἐν αὐτοῖς πάντα
על־הים־אשר־ובם־כל
על־הים־וכל־אשר־בם
It may or may not be inconsequential but there seems to be a textual issue at work here:
TR 5:13
καὶ πᾶν κτίσμα ὃ ἐστιν ἐν τῷ οὐρανῷ
καὶ ἐν τῇ γῇ
καὶ ὑποκάτω τῆς γῆς
καὶ ἐπὶ τῆς θαλάσσης ἅ ἐστίν
καὶ τὰ ἐν αὐτοῖς πάντα ἤκουσα λέγοντας Τῷ καθημένῳ ἐπὶ τοῦ θρόνοῦ
καὶ τῷ ἀρνίῳ ἡ εὐλογία
καὶ ἡ τιμὴ
καὶ ἡ δόξα
καὶ τὸ κράτος εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων

mGNT 5:13
καὶ πᾶν κτίσμα ὃ ἐν τῷ οὐρανῷ
καὶ ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς
καὶ ὑποκάτω τῆς γῆς
καὶ ἐπὶ τῆς θαλάσσης
καὶ τὰ ἐν αὐτοῖς πάντα ἤκουσα λέγοντας τῷ καθημένῳ ἐπὶ τῷ θρόνῳ
καὶ τῷ ἀρνίῳ ἡ εὐλογία
καὶ ἡ τιμὴ
καὶ ἡ δόξα
καὶ τὸ κράτος εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων
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Bill Ross
Posts: 94
Joined: August 12th, 2012, 6:26 pm

Re: επι της θαλασση

Post by Bill Ross » March 10th, 2019, 2:17 pm

JamesAH wrote:
May 4th, 2018, 9:49 am
Revelation 5:13 there is this part επι της θαλασση which translated is "on the sea". I'm wondering why John would use επι instead of εν or εις because it doesn't make sense when it's translated "on the sea" as far as the created things mentioned in the verse. I would think that "in the sea" would make more sense.
I wonder if it is related to:

107:23 (LXX 106:23) οἱ καταβαίνοντες εἰς τὴν θάλασσαν ἐν πλοίοις ποιοῦντες ἐργασίαν ἐν ὕδασι πολλοῗς

The reference could be to ships that are "upon the sea".
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What I lack in youth I make up for in immaturity.

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