τὸ δὲ σῶμα τοῦ Χριστοῦ at Colossians 2:17

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Brendon Henshaw
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τὸ δὲ σῶμα τοῦ Χριστοῦ at Colossians 2:17

Post by Brendon Henshaw » July 17th, 2018, 2:06 am

What is the Meaning of the Phrase τὸ δὲ σῶμα τοῦ Χριστοῦ at Colossians 2:17

Below are English translations of this text: each one seems to give a different meaning:
the reality, however, is found in Christ - New International Version
but the substance belongs to Christ - English Standard Version
but the body that casts it belongs to Christ - Berean Study Bible
But the body is of Christ - Berean Literal Bible
the substance is Christ - Christian Standard Bible
But Christ is real - Contemporary English Version
but the body is Christ's - New Heart English Bible
but the body [that casts the shadow] belongs to Christ - GOD'S WORD Translation
but the body is of the Christ - Jubilee Bible 2000

My very crude word for word translation is (without grammartising):
Τὸ δὲ σῶμα τοῦ Χριστοῦ
that/the moreover/but/and body (of)the Christ

Putting this greek phrase into online translators gave this:
the soul of Christ - Google Translator
but the body of Christ - Microsoft Translator
the ' body of Christ - Yandex Translate

Searching through the NT, I found these slightly similar scriptures with similar greek:
Colossians 2:17 τὸ δὲ σῶμα τοῦ Χριστοῦ - But the body is of Christ - Berean Literal Bible
1 Corinthians 12:27 δέ ἐστε σῶμα Χριστοῦ - are the body of Christ - Berean Literal Bible
Ephesians 4:12 τοῦ σώματος τοῦ Χριστοῦ - of the body of Christ - Berean Literal Bible
1 Corinthians 10:16 τοῦ σώματος τοῦ Χριστοῦ - in the body of Christ - Berean Literal Bible
Romans 7:4 διὰ τοῦ σώματος τοῦ Χριστοῦ - through the body of Christ - Berean Literal Bible
Hebrews 10:10 τοῦ σώματος Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ - of the body of Jesus Christ - Berean Literal Bible

My very limited understanding of Greek, using other these similar scriptures renders:
Colossians 2:17 τὸ δὲ σῶμα τοῦ Χριστοῦ = and of/in the body of Christ

But this is against all Bible Translations. So what is the proper Greek to English translation of this phrase?
Or which English translation has the most proper interpretation of this phrase?
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Re: τὸ δὲ σῶμα τοῦ Χριστοῦ at Colossians 2:17

Post by Jonathan Robie » July 17th, 2018, 9:31 am

Hi Brendon,

First off, you really need to translate entire sentences to get any feel at all, and the syntax of the sentence is essential. Google Translate does not understand New Testament Greek and will give you silly answers.

So let's start with a complete sentence:
Colossians 2:16-17 wrote:Μὴ οὖν τις ὑμᾶς κρινέτω ἐν βρώσει ἢ ἐν πόσει ἢ ἐν μέρει ἑορτῆς ἢ νουμηνίας ἢ σαββάτων, ἅ ἐστιν σκιὰ τῶν μελλόντων, τὸ δὲ σῶμα τοῦ Χριστοῦ.
That's probably not an easy sentence for a beginner, and most people learn best by reading easy Greek at first, but let me see if I can explain the basics here.

First it's important to understand the general topic:

Μὴ οὖν τις ὑμᾶς κρινέτω - do not let someone judge you
ἐν βρώσει ἢ ἐν πόσει ἢ ἐν μέρει ἑορτῆς ἢ νουμηνίας ἢ σαββάτων - the KJV rendering "in" is good here, "in food or in drink or in participating in a feast ..."

The clause before the one you pointed to talks about the things in this list, the clause you were looking at talks about what really counts. Two critical little words here: ἅ is the pronoun that refers to the things in the list, δὲ tells you that the clause that contains it is in contrast to the clause that starts with ἅ:

ἐστιν σκιὰ τῶν μελλόντων, τὸ δὲ σῶμα τοῦ Χριστοῦ.

The first clause is clear enough: These are a shadow of the things to come.

The second clause is tricky in a couple of ways. First point of confusion: like many Greek clauses, this clause does not have a verb. In this case, I think the verb ἐστιν is implied from the previous clause. Let's add it just to be very explicit, even though it is clear without it:

ἅ ἐστιν σκιὰ τῶν μελλόντων, τὸ δὲ σῶμα τοῦ Χριστοῦ ἐστιν.

The second thing that is a little confusing is that the word σῶμα normally means body, but it is being translated in many ways. To understand that, I think you have to look at the relationship between a shadow (σκιὰ) and a body (σῶμα). The body is the real thing, the shadow is an ephemeral side effect of the body that casts the shadow. So this clause is telling that in contrast to the shadow, the body is something real and substantial and able to cast a shadow.

But what is it saying the body is? That's the third thing that is confusing, the phrase τοῦ Χριστοῦ can mean several things, even in this context, and it has been interpreted in different ways. To narrow our interpretive options, I'd like to suggest that this clause tells us the difference between ἡ σκιὰ τῶν μελλόντων and τὸ σῶμα τῶν μελλόντων, and the difference between them is this:

τὸ σῶμα τῶν μελλόντων τοῦ Χριστοῦ ἐστιν.

So this is telling us about the "body" of that which is to come, and saying that it is τοῦ Χριστοῦ. I'm afraid that still leaves us more than one reasonable interpretation, but is this helpful so far?
2 x
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
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Stirling Bartholomew
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Re: τὸ δὲ σῶμα τοῦ Χριστοῦ at Colossians 2:17

Post by Stirling Bartholomew » July 17th, 2018, 11:34 am

This has been discussed several times in the last decade. I find Iver Larsen's contribution helpful.

https://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/b-g ... 52600.html

http://ibiblio.org/bgreek/forum/viewtop ... t=10#p9061
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C. Stirling Bartholomew

Brendon Henshaw
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Re: τὸ δὲ σῶμα τοῦ Χριστοῦ at Colossians 2:17

Post by Brendon Henshaw » July 18th, 2018, 12:49 am

Jonathan Robie wrote:
July 17th, 2018, 9:31 am
Hi Brendon,

First off, you really need to translate entire sentences to get any feel at all, and the syntax of the sentence is essential. Google Translate does not understand New Testament Greek and will give you silly answers.

So let's start with a complete sentence:
Colossians 2:16-17 wrote:Μὴ οὖν τις ὑμᾶς κρινέτω ἐν βρώσει ἢ ἐν πόσει ἢ ἐν μέρει ἑορτῆς ἢ νουμηνίας ἢ σαββάτων, ἅ ἐστιν σκιὰ τῶν μελλόντων, τὸ δὲ σῶμα τοῦ Χριστοῦ.
That's probably not an easy sentence for a beginner, and most people learn best by reading easy Greek at first, but let me see if I can explain the basics here.

First it's important to understand the general topic:

Μὴ οὖν τις ὑμᾶς κρινέτω - do not let someone judge you
ἐν βρώσει ἢ ἐν πόσει ἢ ἐν μέρει ἑορτῆς ἢ νουμηνίας ἢ σαββάτων - the KJV rendering "in" is good here, "in food or in drink or in participating in a feast ..."

The clause before the one you pointed to talks about the things in this list, the clause you were looking at talks about what really counts. Two critical little words here: ἅ is the pronoun that refers to the things in the list, δὲ tells you that the clause that contains it is in contrast to the clause that starts with ἅ:

ἐστιν σκιὰ τῶν μελλόντων, τὸ δὲ σῶμα τοῦ Χριστοῦ.

The first clause is clear enough: These are a shadow of the things to come.

The second clause is tricky in a couple of ways. First point of confusion: like many Greek clauses, this clause does not have a verb. In this case, I think the verb ἐστιν is implied from the previous clause. Let's add it just to be very explicit, even though it is clear without it:

ἅ ἐστιν σκιὰ τῶν μελλόντων, τὸ δὲ σῶμα τοῦ Χριστοῦ ἐστιν.

The second thing that is a little confusing is that the word σῶμα normally means body, but it is being translated in many ways. To understand that, I think you have to look at the relationship between a shadow (σκιὰ) and a body (σῶμα). The body is the real thing, the shadow is an ephemeral side effect of the body that casts the shadow. So this clause is telling that in contrast to the shadow, the body is something real and substantial and able to cast a shadow.

But what is it saying the body is? That's the third thing that is confusing, the phrase τοῦ Χριστοῦ can mean several things, even in this context, and it has been interpreted in different ways. To narrow our interpretive options, I'd like to suggest that this clause tells us the difference between ἡ σκιὰ τῶν μελλόντων and τὸ σῶμα τῶν μελλόντων, and the difference between them is this:

τὸ σῶμα τῶν μελλόντων τοῦ Χριστοῦ ἐστιν.

So this is telling us about the "body" of that which is to come, and saying that it is τοῦ Χριστοῦ. I'm afraid that still leaves us more than one reasonable interpretation, but is this helpful so far?
Hi Stirling
Thanks for such a speedy response to this.
Yes I know this is not easy greek and well above me, thus my reason for coming onto this forum.
Yes I agree with you on really needing to translate entire sentences to get any feel at all, and the syntax of the sentence is essential. I also see the need to to look at the context in its entire portion of the sentences proceeding and following this phrase:
Colossians 2:16 Μὴ οὖν τις ὑμᾶς κρινέτω do not let someone judge you ἐν βρώσει καὶ ἐν πόσει ἢ ἐν μέρει ἑορτῆς in food or in drink or in participating in a feast ἢ νεομηνίας ἢ σαββάτων 17 ἅ ἐστιν σκιὰ τῶν μελλόντων These are a shadow of the things to come, τὸ δὲ σῶμα τοῦ Χριστοῦ 18 μηδεὶς no one ὑμᾶς you καταβραβευέτω θέλων ἐν ταπεινοφροσύνῃ καὶ θρησκείᾳ τῶν ἀγγέλων ἃ ἑόρακεν ἐμβατεύων, εἰκῇ φυσιούμενος ὑπὸ τοῦ νοὸς τῆς σαρκὸς αὐτοῦ 19 καὶ οὐ κρατῶν τὴν Κεφαλήν head ἐξ οὗ πᾶν τὸ σῶμα body διὰ τῶν ἁφῶν joints καὶ συνδέσμων ligaments ἐπιχορηγούμενον καὶ συνβιβαζόμενον being knit together αὔξει τὴν αὔξησιν τοῦ Θεοῦ

Also I recognise the need to take into account the other writings of the Apostle Paul, to see how he uses greek in similar phrases:
1 Corinthians 12:12
Καθάπερ γὰρ τὸ σῶμα boby ἕν ἐστιν καὶ μέλη πολλὰ ἔχει, πάντα δὲ τὰ μέλη τοῦ σώματος body πολλὰ ὄντα ἕν ἐστιν σῶμα body, οὕτως καὶ ὁ Χριστός…….20…..ἢ πάλιν ἡ κεφαλὴ head τοῖς…...24…...θεὸς συνεκέρασεν made together τὸ σῶμα…...27 ὑμεῖς δέ ἐστε σῶμα body Χριστοῦ καὶ μέλη ἐκ μέρους
1 Corinthians 12:27 δέ ἐστε σῶμα Χριστοῦ
Ephesians 4:12 τοῦ σώματος τοῦ Χριστοῦ
1 Corinthians 10:16 τοῦ σώματος τοῦ Χριστοῦ
Romans 7:4 διὰ τοῦ σώματος τοῦ Χριστοῦ
Hebrews 10:10 τοῦ σώματος Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ
So I found it interesting here in Colossians 2:17 that the Apostle Paul appears to deviate just this once from his normal use of the greek words: σῶμα Χριστοῦ as the body of Christ to mean something else.
Then in Colossians 2:19 the Apostle Paul is talking of head/body/joints/ligaments/being knit together, but fails to mention the body of Christ like in his other letters:
Ephesians 4:12…...εἰς οἰκοδομὴν τοῦ σώματος body τοῦ Χριστοῦ…….ἐξ οὗ πᾶν τὸ σῶμα body συναρμολογούμενον being joined together καὶ συνβιβαζόμενον διὰ πάσης ἁφῆς joint τῆς ἐπιχορηγίας κατ’ ἐνέργειαν ἐν μέτρῳ ἑνὸς ἑκάστου μέρους τὴν αὔξησιν τοῦ σώματος body ποιεῖται εἰς οἰκοδομὴν ἑαυτοῦ ἐν ἀγάπῃ
1 Corinthians 10:16 οὐχὶ κοινωνία τοῦ σώματος body τοῦ Χριστοῦ ἐστιν 17 ὅτι εἷς ἄρτος, ἓν σῶμα body οἱ πολλοί ἐσμεν· οἱ γὰρ πάντες ἐκ τοῦ ἑνὸς ἄρτου μετέχομεν
Romans 7:4 διὰ τοῦ σώματος body τοῦ Χριστοῦ, εἰς τὸ γενέσθαι ὑμᾶς ἑτέρῳ, τῷ

Yes I know online translators can get it very wrong. Thus my reason for coming onto this forum. Which appears to be very good.

Thanks for your explanation of δέ , I hadn’t seen it explained in this way before, very nice thanks.

Could you point me to other scriptures to confirm what you have said here ,- So this is telling us about the "body" of that which is to come, and saying that it is τοῦ Χριστοῦ

Sorry I’m still trying to get my head around this.
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Re: τὸ δὲ σῶμα τοῦ Χριστοῦ at Colossians 2:17

Post by Jonathan Robie » July 18th, 2018, 10:50 am

Brendon Henshaw wrote:
July 18th, 2018, 12:49 am
Yes I know this is not easy greek and well above me, thus my reason for coming onto this forum.
Yes I agree with you on really needing to translate entire sentences to get any feel at all, and the syntax of the sentence is essential.
One important thing to keep in mind: in the beginner's forum, the goal is to help you learn to understand the syntax over time so you can read Greek yourself. So we tend to push in that direction over time.
Brendon Henshaw wrote:
July 18th, 2018, 12:49 am
I also see the need to look at the context in its entire portion of the sentences proceeding and following this phrase:
Colossians 2:16 Μὴ οὖν τις ὑμᾶς κρινέτω do not let someone judge you ἐν βρώσει καὶ ἐν πόσει ἢ ἐν μέρει ἑορτῆς in food or in drink or in participating in a feast ἢ νεομηνίας ἢ σαββάτων 17 ἅ ἐστιν σκιὰ τῶν μελλόντων These are a shadow of the things to come, τὸ δὲ σῶμα τοῦ Χριστοῦ 18 μηδεὶς no one ὑμᾶς you καταβραβευέτω θέλων ἐν ταπεινοφροσύνῃ καὶ θρησκείᾳ τῶν ἀγγέλων ἃ ἑόρακεν ἐμβατεύων, εἰκῇ φυσιούμενος ὑπὸ τοῦ νοὸς τῆς σαρκὸς αὐτοῦ 19 καὶ οὐ κρατῶν τὴν Κεφαλήν head ἐξ οὗ πᾶν τὸ σῶμα body διὰ τῶν ἁφῶν joints καὶ συνδέσμων ligaments ἐπιχορηγούμενον καὶ συνβιβαζόμενον being knit together αὔξει τὴν αὔξησιν τοῦ Θεοῦ
I agree - and often context is the most important thing to keep in mind.
Brendon Henshaw wrote:
July 18th, 2018, 12:49 am
Also I recognise the need to take into account the other writings of the Apostle Paul, to see how he uses greek in similar phrases:
To look for similar phrases, it's helpful to start by defining what "similar" means, and that includes syntax, not just words. In Colossians 2:17, τοῦ Χριστοῦ is a predicate that modifies τὸ σῶμα, and that's what we have to understand. Most of your examples have quite different syntax, so I'm more or less ignoring them.
Brendon Henshaw wrote:
July 18th, 2018, 12:49 am
Could you point me to other scriptures to confirm what you have said here ,-
For the basic predicate construction, I would look for sentences where a predicate has two words, an article and a noun in the genitive. But I think you will find that the context significantly affects the interpretation of the noun phrase in each of these.

Like these:
Matt.22.42 λέγουσιν αὐτῷ Τοῦ Δαυείδ.
Whose son is he? He is the son of David. Both "is" and "son" are implied in the context, you can expand this to supply them explicitly: υἱὸς τοῦ Δαυείδ ἐστιν.
Rom.14.8 ἐάν τε οὖν ζῶμεν ἐάν τε ἀποθνήσκωμεν, τοῦ Κυρίου ἐσμέν.
Whether we live or die, we are the Lord's. This construction τοῦ Κυρίου is interesting, and we see it again in the next verse.
1Cor.10.25 1Cor.10.26 Πᾶν τὸ ἐν μακέλλῳ πωλούμενον ἐσθίετε μηδὲν ἀνακρίνοντες διὰ τὴν συνείδησιν· τοῦ Κυρίου γὰρ ἡ γῆ καὶ τὸ πλήρωμα αὐτῆς.
The earth is the Lord's and the fullness thereof. Again, the missing pieces are available in the context - the earth is the Lord's and the fullness of the earth is the Lord's.
2Cor.4.7 Ἔχομεν δὲ τὸν θησαυρὸν τοῦτον ἐν ὀστρακίνοις σκεύεσιν, ἵνα ἡ ὑπερβολὴ τῆς δυνάμεως ᾖ τοῦ Θεοῦ καὶ μὴ ἐξ ἡμῶν·
In this text, τοῦ Θεοῦ might simply mean "God's", similar in meaning to τοῦ Κυρίου in the verses we have been looking at: the surpassing power is God's and is not from us. Or perhaps there is an implied ἐκ here - ἐκ τοῦ Θεοῦ καὶ μὴ ἐξ ἡμῶν - from God and not from us.
Col.2.16 Col.2.17 Μὴ οὖν τις ὑμᾶς κρινέτω ἐν βρώσει καὶ ἐν πόσει ἢ ἐν μέρει ἑορτῆς ἢ νεομηνίας ἢ σαββάτων, ἅ ἐστιν σκιὰ τῶν μελλόντων, τὸ δὲ σῶμα τοῦ Χριστοῦ.
I think there are several possible ways to understand τοῦ Χριστοῦ here too. Again, the context is key.

Brendon Henshaw wrote:
July 18th, 2018, 12:49 am
So this is telling us about the "body" of that which is to come, and saying that it is τοῦ Χριστοῦ

Sorry I’m still trying to get my head around this.
Well, what meanings do you think we should consider as possibilities, based on the context? Are there meanings you want us to explore to see how plausible they are? Do these other texts suggest some possibilities? How do reliable translations differ, and how do they relate to the construct τοῦ Χριστοῦ?
1 x
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
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Re: τὸ δὲ σῶμα τοῦ Χριστοῦ at Colossians 2:17

Post by Brendon Henshaw » July 19th, 2018, 5:45 am

Jonathan Robie wrote:
July 18th, 2018, 10:50 am
Brendon Henshaw wrote:
July 18th, 2018, 12:49 am
Yes I know this is not easy greek and well above me, thus my reason for coming onto this forum.
Yes I agree with you on really needing to translate entire sentences to get any feel at all, and the syntax of the sentence is essential.
One important thing to keep in mind: in the beginner's forum, the goal is to help you learn to understand the syntax over time so you can read Greek yourself. So we tend to push in that direction over time.
Brendon Henshaw wrote:
July 18th, 2018, 12:49 am
I also see the need to look at the context in its entire portion of the sentences proceeding and following this phrase:
Colossians 2:16 Μὴ οὖν τις ὑμᾶς κρινέτω do not let someone judge you ἐν βρώσει καὶ ἐν πόσει ἢ ἐν μέρει ἑορτῆς in food or in drink or in participating in a feast ἢ νεομηνίας ἢ σαββάτων 17 ἅ ἐστιν σκιὰ τῶν μελλόντων These are a shadow of the things to come, τὸ δὲ σῶμα τοῦ Χριστοῦ 18 μηδεὶς no one ὑμᾶς you καταβραβευέτω θέλων ἐν ταπεινοφροσύνῃ καὶ θρησκείᾳ τῶν ἀγγέλων ἃ ἑόρακεν ἐμβατεύων, εἰκῇ φυσιούμενος ὑπὸ τοῦ νοὸς τῆς σαρκὸς αὐτοῦ 19 καὶ οὐ κρατῶν τὴν Κεφαλήν head ἐξ οὗ πᾶν τὸ σῶμα body διὰ τῶν ἁφῶν joints καὶ συνδέσμων ligaments ἐπιχορηγούμενον καὶ συνβιβαζόμενον being knit together αὔξει τὴν αὔξησιν τοῦ Θεοῦ
I agree - and often context is the most important thing to keep in mind.
Brendon Henshaw wrote:
July 18th, 2018, 12:49 am
Also I recognise the need to take into account the other writings of the Apostle Paul, to see how he uses greek in similar phrases:
To look for similar phrases, it's helpful to start by defining what "similar" means, and that includes syntax, not just words. In Colossians 2:17, τοῦ Χριστοῦ is a predicate that modifies τὸ σῶμα, and that's what we have to understand. Most of your examples have quite different syntax, so I'm more or less ignoring them.
Brendon Henshaw wrote:
July 18th, 2018, 12:49 am
Could you point me to other scriptures to confirm what you have said here ,-
For the basic predicate construction, I would look for sentences where a predicate has two words, an article and a noun in the genitive. But I think you will find that the context significantly affects the interpretation of the noun phrase in each of these.

Like these:
Matt.22.42 λέγουσιν αὐτῷ Τοῦ Δαυείδ.
Whose son is he? He is the son of David. Both "is" and "son" are implied in the context, you can expand this to supply them explicitly: υἱὸς τοῦ Δαυείδ ἐστιν.
Rom.14.8 ἐάν τε οὖν ζῶμεν ἐάν τε ἀποθνήσκωμεν, τοῦ Κυρίου ἐσμέν.
Whether we live or die, we are the Lord's. This construction τοῦ Κυρίου is interesting, and we see it again in the next verse.
1Cor.10.25 1Cor.10.26 Πᾶν τὸ ἐν μακέλλῳ πωλούμενον ἐσθίετε μηδὲν ἀνακρίνοντες διὰ τὴν συνείδησιν· τοῦ Κυρίου γὰρ ἡ γῆ καὶ τὸ πλήρωμα αὐτῆς.
The earth is the Lord's and the fullness thereof. Again, the missing pieces are available in the context - the earth is the Lord's and the fullness of the earth is the Lord's.
2Cor.4.7 Ἔχομεν δὲ τὸν θησαυρὸν τοῦτον ἐν ὀστρακίνοις σκεύεσιν, ἵνα ἡ ὑπερβολὴ τῆς δυνάμεως ᾖ τοῦ Θεοῦ καὶ μὴ ἐξ ἡμῶν·
In this text, τοῦ Θεοῦ might simply mean "God's", similar in meaning to τοῦ Κυρίου in the verses we have been looking at: the surpassing power is God's and is not from us. Or perhaps there is an implied ἐκ here - ἐκ τοῦ Θεοῦ καὶ μὴ ἐξ ἡμῶν - from God and not from us.
Col.2.16 Col.2.17 Μὴ οὖν τις ὑμᾶς κρινέτω ἐν βρώσει καὶ ἐν πόσει ἢ ἐν μέρει ἑορτῆς ἢ νεομηνίας ἢ σαββάτων, ἅ ἐστιν σκιὰ τῶν μελλόντων, τὸ δὲ σῶμα τοῦ Χριστοῦ.
I think there are several possible ways to understand τοῦ Χριστοῦ here too. Again, the context is key.

Brendon Henshaw wrote:
July 18th, 2018, 12:49 am
So this is telling us about the "body" of that which is to come, and saying that it is τοῦ Χριστοῦ

Sorry I’m still trying to get my head around this.
Well, what meanings do you think we should consider as possibilities, based on the context? Are there meanings you want us to explore to see how plausible they are? Do these other texts suggest some possibilities? How do reliable translations differ, and how do they relate to the construct τοῦ Χριστοῦ?
Hi Jonathan

Thanks for this, it’s helping me alot.

Just to confirm your definition:
So this is telling us about the "body" of that which is to come, and saying that it is τοῦ Χριστοῦ
Putting your words into the scripture reads:
do not let someone judge you in food or in drink or in participating in a feast ἢ νεομηνίας ἢ σαββάτων or a new moon or Sabbath, these are a shadow of the things to come, that is the body, that it is the Christ

I was wondering which english Bible translation is closest to this? Sorry I can’t find a translation with: these are a shadow of the things to come, that is the body that it is the Christ. The closest I could find is:
Berean Study Bible - These are a shadow of the things to come, but the body that casts it belongs to Christ.
This appears to be similar to your translation. However your use of the word ‘this’ over ‘but’ ties ‘σῶμα τοῦ Χριστοῦ’ in better with the proceeding phrase ‘ἐστιν σκιὰ τῶν μελλόντων’

Your translation appears to be good syntax of the Greek, thank you for that.
I guess like you say there could be other options, but yours appears to be a good option.

Your option makes good sense to me and explains it in a more understandable format for me, I had questions about these translations:
Christian Standard Bible - These are a shadow of what was to come; the substance is Christ - Kind of gives me a picture of there being an important undisclosed substance, which so happens to be Christ.
NET Bible - these are only the shadow of the things to come, but the reality is Christ!. - Kind of gives me a picture of me living in Christ’s reality.

I was just wondering, could it be possible that another way to translate this is for: δὲ to tell us about ‘σῶμα τοῦ Χριστοῦ’ (indicting ‘a unit’ EG a family)
Rather than δὲ telling us about ‘σῶμα’ in relation to ‘τοῦ Χριστοῦ’. (indicating ‘one's own unit’. EG a person's own body)
This may give a meaning something like:
that is the “body of Christ” of which is to come
Is it possible that the Apostle Paul was referring to ‘σῶμα τοῦ Χριστοῦ’ as ‘a unit’ (EG a family) instead of ‘one's own body’ in like manner as he did in:
1 Corinthians 12:27 σῶμα Χριστοῦ
Ephesians 4:12 σώματος τοῦ Χριστοῦ
1 Corinthians 10:16 σώματος τοῦ Χριστο
Romans 7:4 σώματος τοῦ Χριστοῦ
Hebrews 10:10 σώματος Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ
Yes I agree that these are not in syntax with our text, with the only similarity being the use of σῶμα Χριστοῦ.

I’m sorry it seemed to me that Colossians 2:19 was in overall context with Colossians 2:17 in a similar way that Ephesians 4:12 seemed to me to be in overall context with Ephesians 4:16, that overall context aspect refers to the Body of Christ. Yes I agree that none of these are of the same syntax of the phrase at hand.

Thank you for the scripture examples using τοῦ, I found these good.

I found this scripture that almost appears to have a similar kind of syntax by having τὸ δὲ σῶμα, but lacked the association to a person/entity:
1 Corinthians 6:13 καὶ ταύτην καὶ ταῦτα καταργήσει. τὸ δὲ σῶμα οὐ τῇ πορνείᾳ ἀλλὰ τῷ Κυρίῳ, καὶ ὁ Κύριος τῷ σώματι
But the English Bible translations do not appear to use δὲ in relation to σῶμα in this instance.
They translate δὲ as now/however/but/yet/and or omit it altogether.
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Re: τὸ δὲ σῶμα τοῦ Χριστοῦ at Colossians 2:17

Post by Jonathan Robie » July 19th, 2018, 2:51 pm

Brendon Henshaw wrote:
July 19th, 2018, 5:45 am
Just to confirm your definition:
So this is telling us about the "body" of that which is to come, and saying that it is τοῦ Χριστοῦ
Putting your words into the scripture reads:
do not let someone judge you in food or in drink or in participating in a feast ἢ νεομηνίας ἢ σαββάτων or a new moon or Sabbath, these are a shadow of the things to come, that is the body, that it is the Christ
τοῦ Χριστοῦ is genitive. That's important.
Brendon Henshaw wrote:
July 19th, 2018, 5:45 am
I was wondering which english Bible translation is closest to this? Sorry I can’t find a translation with: these are a shadow of the things to come, that is the body that it is the Christ. The closest I could find is:
Berean Study Bible - These are a shadow of the things to come, but the body that casts it belongs to Christ.
That's one way of understanding the genitive predicate here - τοῦ Κυρίου ἐσμέν in Romans means "we are the Lord's". With this interpretation, τὸ σῶμα τοῦ Χριστοῦ means "the body is Christ's", which can be phrased various ways in English. "the body belongs to Christ" is one of these ways.

That's the interpretation that best matches the examples I gave earlier. There are others, but let's not overcomplicate this, just don't be too quick to judge some of the other translations.
Brendon Henshaw wrote:
July 19th, 2018, 5:45 am
But the English Bible translations do not appear to use δὲ in relation to σῶμα in this instance.
They translate δὲ as now/however/but/yet/and or omit it altogether.
δὲ in relation to σῶμα? Do you know what post-positive means? If you have the clause τὸ σῶμα τοῦ Χριστοῦ and you add δὲ to the front, it can't sit in that first position, it has to take the second position, even if it (weirdly) divides the noun phrase τὸ σῶμα, so you get τὸ δὲ σῶμα τοῦ Χριστοῦ.

How much Greek have you learned, and how are you going about it?
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ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

Brendon Henshaw
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Re: τὸ δὲ σῶμα τοῦ Χριστοῦ at Colossians 2:17

Post by Brendon Henshaw » July 20th, 2018, 5:35 am

Jonathan Robie wrote:
July 19th, 2018, 2:51 pm
Brendon Henshaw wrote:
July 19th, 2018, 5:45 am
Just to confirm your definition:
So this is telling us about the "body" of that which is to come, and saying that it is τοῦ Χριστοῦ
Putting your words into the scripture reads:
do not let someone judge you in food or in drink or in participating in a feast ἢ νεομηνίας ἢ σαββάτων or a new moon or Sabbath, these are a shadow of the things to come, that is the body, that it is the Christ
τοῦ Χριστοῦ is genitive. That's important.
Brendon Henshaw wrote:
July 19th, 2018, 5:45 am
I was wondering which english Bible translation is closest to this? Sorry I can’t find a translation with: these are a shadow of the things to come, that is the body that it is the Christ. The closest I could find is:
Berean Study Bible - These are a shadow of the things to come, but the body that casts it belongs to Christ.
That's one way of understanding the genitive predicate here - τοῦ Κυρίου ἐσμέν in Romans means "we are the Lord's". With this interpretation, τὸ σῶμα τοῦ Χριστοῦ means "the body is Christ's", which can be phrased various ways in English. "the body belongs to Christ" is one of these ways.

That's the interpretation that best matches the examples I gave earlier. There are others, but let's not overcomplicate this, just don't be too quick to judge some of the other translations.
Brendon Henshaw wrote:
July 19th, 2018, 5:45 am
But the English Bible translations do not appear to use δὲ in relation to σῶμα in this instance.
They translate δὲ as now/however/but/yet/and or omit it altogether.
δὲ in relation to σῶμα? Do you know what post-positive means? If you have the clause τὸ σῶμα τοῦ Χριστοῦ and you add δὲ to the front, it can't sit in that first position, it has to take the second position, even if it (weirdly) divides the noun phrase τὸ σῶμα, so you get τὸ δὲ σῶμα τοῦ Χριστοῦ.

How much Greek have you learned, and how are you going about it?
Hi Jonathan
Oops, sorry, got the postpositive thingy around the wrong way, mixing it up with prepositive. I think I can recall post as being in relation to the word posted before. Pre is in relation to the word proceeding it. Whew over 30 years since I did this grammar stuff at school. Thanks for pointing that out. I will slow down and thoroughly check before posting in the future. And yes I got out of my depth here and bit off more than I could chew. I am at basic level of Greek. Currently learning Greek here with you on https://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/forum and https://www.duolingo.com/ and using BibleHub and other online resources.

So getting back on topic, would you say that there is absolutely no way in shape or form that this could be correct for this phrase:
ἅ ἐστιν σκιὰ τῶν μελλόντων, τὸ δὲ σῶμα τοῦ Χριστοῦ
these are a shadow of the things to come, that is the body of Christ.

And I'm wondering if this picture is somewhat in keeping with your translation:
Colossians 2vs17.png
do not let someone judge you in food or in drink or in participating in a feast or a new moon or Sabbath, these are a shadow of the things to come, that is the body that it is the Christ.
Colossians 2vs17.png (252.88 KiB) Viewed 248 times
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Re: τὸ δὲ σῶμα τοῦ Χριστοῦ at Colossians 2:17

Post by Brendon Henshaw » July 20th, 2018, 9:06 am

That's one way of understanding the genitive predicate here - τοῦ Κυρίου ἐσμέν in Romans means "we are the Lord's". With this interpretation, τὸ σῶμα τοῦ Χριστοῦ means "the body is Christ's", which can be phrased various ways in English. "the body belongs to Christ" is one of these ways.

Thanks for that.
Using this interpretation, could this be another way to interpret:
ἅ ἐστιν σκιὰ τῶν μελλόντων, τὸ δὲ σῶμα τοῦ Χριστοῦ
these are a shadow of the things to come, pertaining to the body that belongs to Christ.
Or
these are a shadow of the things to come, that pertain to the body belonging to Christ.
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Re: τὸ δὲ σῶμα τοῦ Χριστοῦ at Colossians 2:17

Post by Jonathan Robie » July 20th, 2018, 3:10 pm

Brendon Henshaw wrote:
July 20th, 2018, 5:35 am
Oops, sorry, got the postpositive thingy around the wrong way, mixing it up with prepositive. I think I can recall post as being in relation to the word posted before. Pre is in relation to the word proceeding it. Whew over 30 years since I did this grammar stuff at school. Thanks for pointing that out. I will slow down and thoroughly check before posting in the future. And yes I got out of my depth here and bit off more than I could chew. I am at basic level of Greek. Currently learning Greek here with you on https://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/forum and https://www.duolingo.com/ and using BibleHub and other online resources.
To make progress, you'll need to find an approach that involves lots of reading, in Greek, at a level that is appropriate for you. Perhaps John or 1 John might be a good place to start. And you'll need a Greek grammar. Duolingo is modern Greek, not Hellenistic Greek, there's unfortunately no Rosetta Stone or Duolingo for New Testament Greek.

Biblehub has lots of good resources, including commentaries, but you need something that keeps you focused on the Greek, interlinears and commentaries and such are way too distracting and keep you from thinking in Greek.
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ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

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