τὸ δὲ σῶμα τοῦ Χριστοῦ at Colossians 2:17

How do I work out the meaning of a Greek text? How can I best understand the forms and vocabulary in this particular text?
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This is a beginner's forum - see the Koine Greek forum for more advanced discussion of Greek texts. Please quote the Greek text you are discussing directly in your post if it is reasonably short - do not ask people to look it up.

When answering questions in this forum, keep it simple, and aim your responses to the level of the person asking the question.
Jonathan Robie
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Re: τὸ δὲ σῶμα τοῦ Χριστοῦ at Colossians 2:17

Post by Jonathan Robie » July 20th, 2018, 3:19 pm

Brendon Henshaw wrote:
July 20th, 2018, 9:06 am
That's one way of understanding the genitive predicate here - τοῦ Κυρίου ἐσμέν in Romans means "we are the Lord's". With this interpretation, τὸ σῶμα τοῦ Χριστοῦ means "the body is Christ's", which can be phrased various ways in English. "the body belongs to Christ" is one of these ways.

Thanks for that.
Using this interpretation, could this be another way to interpret:
ἅ ἐστιν σκιὰ τῶν μελλόντων, τὸ δὲ σῶμα τοῦ Χριστοῦ
these are a shadow of the things to come, pertaining to the body that belongs to Christ.
Or
these are a shadow of the things to come, that pertain to the body belonging to Christ.
I don't think so.

subject: τὸ σῶμα
predicate: τοῦ Χριστοῦ
verb (implied): ἐστιν

τὸ σῶμα and τοῦ Χριστοῦ are different constituents, you merged them into one, which is at least a very different interpretation than the one I proposed above. There are several other reasonable interpretations, I don't want to go into them all.

We don't usually focus on English translations here. The right way to ask this kind of question is to ask questions that focus on the syntax of the Greek text rather than translations. If you want to propose a different way of understanding the Greek, talking about the Greek is the way to do it.
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ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

Brendon Henshaw
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Re: τὸ δὲ σῶμα τοῦ Χριστοῦ at Colossians 2:17

Post by Brendon Henshaw » July 20th, 2018, 4:22 pm

Jonathan Robie wrote:
July 20th, 2018, 3:10 pm
Brendon Henshaw wrote:
July 20th, 2018, 5:35 am
Oops, sorry, got the postpositive thingy around the wrong way, mixing it up with prepositive. I think I can recall post as being in relation to the word posted before. Pre is in relation to the word proceeding it. Whew over 30 years since I did this grammar stuff at school. Thanks for pointing that out. I will slow down and thoroughly check before posting in the future. And yes I got out of my depth here and bit off more than I could chew. I am at basic level of Greek. Currently learning Greek here with you on https://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/forum and https://www.duolingo.com/ and using BibleHub and other online resources.
To make progress, you'll need to find an approach that involves lots of reading, in Greek, at a level that is appropriate for you. Perhaps John or 1 John might be a good place to start. And you'll need a Greek grammar. Duolingo is modern Greek, not Hellenistic Greek, there's unfortunately no Rosetta Stone or Duolingo for New Testament Greek.

Biblehub has lots of good resources, including commentaries, but you need something that keeps you focused on the Greek, interlinears and commentaries and such are way too distracting and keep you from thinking in Greek.
Oh dear, I thought that this was okey for me to use:
http://biblehub.com/text/colossians/2-17.htm
I didn't realize that this biblehub greek was not Hellenistic Greek. Sorry I've been looking at this greek on this site of Biblehub: Nestle GNT 1904, Stephanus Textus Receptus 1550, etc
I haven't been using the interlinears and commentaries on Bible Hub
Ok, I'll look for Hellenistic Greek online and go to John 1 and John

Sorry I thought I was doing the right thing coming on this site to this page:
Someone said my english bible version was wrong, there's version was correct, but mine was wrong They said the word 'substance' proved my bible was wrong, I tried another Bible which had the word 'reality'. They said that I have to get rid of my versions and get their version: Complete Jewish Bible, the correct version, they said. So I said that before I do that, I would look at the Greek. Before this I had only did one week of Biblical Greek with a Professor in ancient linguistics over 25 years ago and dabbled in greek over the years.
So now you are saying that I need to go to John or John 1 in the Hellenistic Greek Bible to check to see if my Bible's are okey.
Sorry I thought that I was doing the right thing here coming on this site:
https://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/forum/index.php
Clicking:
Beginners Forum
The forum for those who still struggle with morphology, syntax, and idiom, or who wish to discuss basic questions about the meaning of Greek texts, syntax, or words.
Then clicked:
What does this text mean?
How do I work out the meaning of a Greek text? How can I best understand the forms and vocabulary in this particular text?
This came up with a page saying:
Forum rules
This is a beginner's forum - see the Koine Greek forum for more advanced discussion of Greek texts. Please quote the Greek text you are discussing directly in your post if it is reasonably short - do not ask people to look it up.

When answering questions in this forum, keep it simple, and aim your responses to the level of the person asking the question.

So I made a post, in it stating: 'My very limited understanding of Greek'

Sorry i thought that I was doing the right thing coming here, in the way I did. Quoting the greek text and asking what it meant. I thought as the page said, that it was for beginners, not realizing that I am not at beginners level yet. Sorry this page didn't indicate this to me. It also didn't say that if your level is less than a beginner then to only ask questions from John or 1 John.

So till I can learn greek better maybe I think that I might just get a copy of the Complete Jewish Bible or Berean Study Bible.

However, you have been a tremendous help to me, it seemed to much for me on what this person was going on about on Colossians 2:17, but you showed it to me in a way I could better understand it, thanks for that. I will thus go on a path of finding about learning the Hellenistic Greek you mentioned and look at it in John and 1 John. Thanks for that.
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Brendon Henshaw
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Re: τὸ δὲ σῶμα τοῦ Χριστοῦ at Colossians 2:17

Post by Brendon Henshaw » July 20th, 2018, 4:42 pm

Jonathan Robie wrote:
July 20th, 2018, 3:10 pm
Brendon Henshaw wrote:
July 20th, 2018, 5:35 am
Oops, sorry, got the postpositive thingy around the wrong way, mixing it up with prepositive. I think I can recall post as being in relation to the word posted before. Pre is in relation to the word proceeding it. Whew over 30 years since I did this grammar stuff at school. Thanks for pointing that out. I will slow down and thoroughly check before posting in the future. And yes I got out of my depth here and bit off more than I could chew. I am at basic level of Greek. Currently learning Greek here with you on https://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/forum and https://www.duolingo.com/ and using BibleHub and other online resources.
To make progress, you'll need to find an approach that involves lots of reading, in Greek, at a level that is appropriate for you. Perhaps John or 1 John might be a good place to start. And you'll need a Greek grammar. Duolingo is modern Greek, not Hellenistic Greek, there's unfortunately no Rosetta Stone or Duolingo for New Testament Greek.

Biblehub has lots of good resources, including commentaries, but you need something that keeps you focused on the Greek, interlinears and commentaries and such are way too distracting and keep you from thinking in Greek.
Could you help me out here:
Hellenistic Greece corresponds to the period between the death of Alexander the Great in 323 BC and the annexation of the classical Greek heartlands by the Roman Republic. This culminated at the Battle of Corinth in 146 BC
I couldn’t find an older version than this with Colossians 2:17, the older versions seem to omit this verse for some reason, this version extends 7-37 years beyond the Hellenistic Greek date (wow, I wouldn't have thought greek would have changed so much in just a few decades):
Codex Sinaiticus Date c. 330–360
http://www.codexsinaiticus.org/en/manus ... omSlider=0
α εϲτιν ϲκι α των μελλοντω το δε ϲωμα του χυ
Yes noted this version is different to what I have been using on BibleHub
What is the Version with Hellanistic Greek?
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Barry Hofstetter
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Re: τὸ δὲ σῶμα τοῦ Χριστοῦ at Colossians 2:17

Post by Barry Hofstetter » July 20th, 2018, 4:52 pm

Any questions you have about Greek we'll be here. Although normally we don't discuss translations I will say this: The Complete Jewish Bible is at points idiosyncratic and may even be misleading. You are better off with a standard translation such as the ESV or the NIV.
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N.E. Barry Hofstetter
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
Χαίρετε ἐν κυρίῳ πάντοτε· πάλιν ἐρῶ, χαίρετε

Jonathan Robie
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Re: τὸ δὲ σῶμα τοῦ Χριστοῦ at Colossians 2:17

Post by Jonathan Robie » July 20th, 2018, 4:54 pm

Brendon Henshaw wrote:
July 20th, 2018, 4:22 pm
Oh dear, I thought that this was okey for me to use:
http://biblehub.com/text/colossians/2-17.htm
I didn't realize that this biblehub greek was not Hellenistic Greek. Sorry I've been looking at this greek on this site of Biblehub: Nestle GNT 1904, Stephanus Textus Receptus 1550, etc
I haven't been using the interlinears and commentaries on Bible Hub
Ok, I'll look for Hellenistic Greek online and go to John 1 and John
I didn't say Bible Hub isn't Hellenistic Greek. Duolingo is modern Greek. The Biblehub texts are Hellenistic Greek, but it is oriented toward interlinears and commentaries and other things that keep you thinking in English.

You are welcome in the Beginner's Forum, moving to a simpler text is probably a good idea. Our goal in the Beginner's forum is to coach people as they learn Greek. You can certainly ask questions about texts in other books, I felt that we had reached the limits of what is helpful in this particular text. I could make technical arguments for some other interpretations, but that takes time.

You might consider using a reading environment that focuses on the Greek text, perhaps one of these:

https://scaife.perseus.org/reader/urn:c ... -grc2:1.1/

https://www.stepbible.org/?q=version=SB ... ions=NGVHU

https://biblebento.com/index.html?nestle1904&500.1.1

If you have a cell phone, the SBLGNT app is pretty handy.

Do a bunch of reading. Start working through a grammar. Ask questions about what you see in the text you read or in the grammar as you go along.
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ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

Shirley Rollinson
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Re: τὸ δὲ σῶμα τοῦ Χριστοῦ at Colossians 2:17

Post by Shirley Rollinson » July 21st, 2018, 9:22 pm

Jonathan Robie wrote:
July 20th, 2018, 4:54 pm
- - - - - snip snip - - - -
If you have a cell phone, the SBLGNT app is pretty handy.

Do a bunch of reading. Start working through a grammar. Ask questions about what you see in the text you read or in the grammar as you go along.
You're welcome to try the free Online Greek Textbook - it's aimed for self-learners as well as my students, and its main aim is to get people reading and enjoying Greek. There's also a short appendix on the History of the language, which might help clear up some of your questions.
It's at http://www.drshirley.org/greek/textbook02/index.html

Don't let people worry you about "Hellenistic", "koine", etc. or about the various translations (unless they're really way different from the rest). As you get more familiar with foreign languages, you'll realise that words usually do not have a "set-in-concrete" one-to-one equivalent when translating - they have various shades of meaning, and often only a native speaker can tell you when he/she would use one word rather than another. For example, in English, how do we choose between "say", "speak", "tell", "utter", "pronounce", "orate"? or "girl", "lass", "chick", "teen", "young woman" ?
For now, start reading the Greek New Testament - aloud, and slowly enough to be able to think about phrases and what they might mean, rather than trying to nit-pick at little individual pieces.
Hope this helps - Keep reading and enjoying :)
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