Pronouncing passage references (e.g. Κατά Ιωάννην 1:1-2)

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Jonathan Robie
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Pronouncing passage references (e.g. Κατά Ιωάννην 1:1-2)

Post by Jonathan Robie » August 1st, 2018, 12:22 pm

I am recording some audio in Greek, and I have to identify passage references like Κατά Ιωάννην 1:1-2.

How would you say that out loud? Does anyone know how this is said in modern Greek?
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ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

Mark Lightman
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Re: Pronouncing passage references (e.g. Κατά Ιωάννην 1:1-2)

Post by Mark Lightman » August 2nd, 2018, 5:38 pm

Jonathan Robie wrote:
August 1st, 2018, 12:22 pm
...I have to identify passage references like Κατά Ιωάννην 1:1-2.How would you say that out loud?
κεφάλαιον ἕν, στίχος ἓν καὶ στίχος δύο.

ἔρρωσο.
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Jonathan Robie
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Re: Pronouncing passage references (e.g. Κατά Ιωάννην 1:1-2)

Post by Jonathan Robie » August 2nd, 2018, 6:40 pm

Mark Lightman wrote:
August 2nd, 2018, 5:38 pm
Jonathan Robie wrote:
August 1st, 2018, 12:22 pm
...I have to identify passage references like Κατά Ιωάννην 1:1-2.How would you say that out loud?
κεφάλαιον ἕν, στίχος ἓν καὶ στίχος δύο.
Thanks! Let me explore this a little ...

κεφάλαιος for chapter and στίχος for verse match what modern Greek does, and both words are in LSJ, so that's good.

Perhaps ἕως for the end of a range, e.g. στίχοι ἓν ἕως δύο?

What about cardinal vs. ordinal numbers, is it a matter of personal preference? Is this also OK?

Κατά Ιωάννην, κεφάλαιον πρῶτον, στίχοι πρῶτος ἕως δεύτερος
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ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

Seumas Macdonald
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Re: Pronouncing passage references (e.g. Κατά Ιωάννην 1:1-2)

Post by Seumas Macdonald » August 2nd, 2018, 6:43 pm

I have used/heard ἁπὸ and μέχρι for specifying range. Ordinals are preferred but I confess to lapsing to cardinals when my brain can't bring up the right ordinal.
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Jonathan Robie
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Re: Pronouncing passage references (e.g. Κατά Ιωάννην 1:1-2)

Post by Jonathan Robie » August 2nd, 2018, 7:39 pm

Seumas Macdonald wrote:
August 2nd, 2018, 6:43 pm
I have used/heard ἁπὸ and μέχρι for specifying range. Ordinals are preferred but I confess to lapsing to cardinals when my brain can't bring up the right ordinal.
Someone who knows ancient Greek well and speaks modern Greek fluently suggested this in email: ΑΠΟ ΤΟ ΕΝΑ ΕΩΣ (ΜΕΧΡΙ) ΤΟ ΤΕΣΣΑΡΑ, saying also that "in modern you can use them both, in hellenistic only ΕΩΣ but not ΜΕΧΡΙ." I haven't asked if I can cite it as his opinion, so I will leave his name off for now.
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ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

Devenios Doulenios
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Re: Pronouncing passage references (e.g. Κατά Ιωάννην 1:1-2)

Post by Devenios Doulenios » August 3rd, 2018, 9:03 am

The Koine NT recordings available on Bible.is (by the Greek Bible Society) use the ordinals for the chapter numbers. The speaker is a native Greek. However, I don't see why you couldn't use the cardinals.
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"τὴν ζωὴν καὶ τὸν θάνατον δέδωκα πρὸ προσώπου ὑμῶν τὴν εὐλογίαν καὶ τὴν κατάραν ἔκλεξαι τὴν ζωήν ἵνα ζῇς σὺ καὶ τὸ σπέρμα σου"-Δευτερονόμιον 30:19

"Ὁδοὶ δύο εἰσί, μία τῆς ζωῆς καὶ μία τοῦ θανάτου."--Διδαχή Α, α'

Devenios Doulenios
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Re: Pronouncing passage references (e.g. Κατά Ιωάννην 1:1-2)

Post by Devenios Doulenios » August 3rd, 2018, 9:23 am

Our own Louis Sorenson used the cardinals in his recordings of selected Psalms, e.g., Ψαμος εις, Ψαλμοσ εις και εικοσι.
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"τὴν ζωὴν καὶ τὸν θάνατον δέδωκα πρὸ προσώπου ὑμῶν τὴν εὐλογίαν καὶ τὴν κατάραν ἔκλεξαι τὴν ζωήν ἵνα ζῇς σὺ καὶ τὸ σπέρμα σου"-Δευτερονόμιον 30:19

"Ὁδοὶ δύο εἰσί, μία τῆς ζωῆς καὶ μία τοῦ θανάτου."--Διδαχή Α, α'

Jonathan Robie
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Re: Pronouncing passage references (e.g. Κατά Ιωάννην 1:1-2)

Post by Jonathan Robie » August 3rd, 2018, 2:48 pm

Devenios Doulenios wrote:
August 3rd, 2018, 9:23 am
Our own Louis Sorenson used the cardinals in his recordings of selected Psalms, e.g., Ψαμος εις, Ψαλμοσ εις και εικοσι.
What does he say for ranges of verses? I assume και is for when he cites just the two verses, not a range.
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ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

Devenios Doulenios
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Re: Pronouncing passage references (e.g. Κατά Ιωάννην 1:1-2)

Post by Devenios Doulenios » August 3rd, 2018, 3:37 pm

Honestly, I don't know. The recordings he did only cited the chapter number, not a range of verses. They are the ones he had on his site some time back (LetsreadGreek.org; the site is now defunct. He has a .com site now with the same name, but I don't see the Psalm files on it.). I'd be interested to know myself what he uses.
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"τὴν ζωὴν καὶ τὸν θάνατον δέδωκα πρὸ προσώπου ὑμῶν τὴν εὐλογίαν καὶ τὴν κατάραν ἔκλεξαι τὴν ζωήν ἵνα ζῇς σὺ καὶ τὸ σπέρμα σου"-Δευτερονόμιον 30:19

"Ὁδοὶ δύο εἰσί, μία τῆς ζωῆς καὶ μία τοῦ θανάτου."--Διδαχή Α, α'

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