Hoping for real reading proficiency

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Shirley Rollinson
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Re: Hoping for real reading proficiency

Post by Shirley Rollinson » August 6th, 2018, 9:44 pm

seanmcguire wrote:
August 6th, 2018, 1:55 pm
I at least have found reading three times really, really powerful.
- - - snip snip - - -

As for finding words below 10x, I've yet to find an easy way to do this. I have Accordance, but I'm not sure how to search specifically. My Google searches haven't turned up any good advice. I also have a reader's lexicon, but that is time consuming to type out for each book. Any ideas how to get the word data quickly?
I use Zerwick and Grosvenor "Grammatical Analysis of the Greek New Testament" (Biblical Institute Press, Rome) for help with unfamiliar words/constructions - there are often some insightful comments and etymology which are helpful.
What I find works for me is to read a passage straight through, aloud, even if I don't understand it completely. Then I go back and read it aloud again, but slowly, and make notes of words or grammar that I need to check out. Then I check the words etc - and write them out in a notebook keyed to Book, chapter, verse. Then I mentally (silently) read the passage and see how things fit together, and when I've got that worked out I read it again aloud at normal speed and think about what the passage is saying.
Hope this helps
Shirley Rollinson
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Sam Parkinson
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Re: Hoping for real reading proficiency

Post by Sam Parkinson » August 8th, 2018, 6:24 am

seanmcguire wrote:
August 6th, 2018, 1:55 pm
As for finding words below 10x, I've yet to find an easy way to do this. I have Accordance, but I'm not sure how to search specifically. My Google searches haven't turned up any good advice. I also have a reader's lexicon, but that is time consuming to type out for each book. Any ideas how to get the word data quickly?
Not from accordance, sorry - I'm sure it's possible! Logos lets you list all words in a book with a certain frequency, and then subtract other lists from that, but I've never used Accordance. I'm sure someone else can help?
If you are willing to spend money on it, I think Daryl Burling's https://masterntgreek.com/ gives you premade lists by book.
Sam.
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seanmcguire
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Re: Hoping for real reading proficiency

Post by seanmcguire » August 13th, 2018, 8:57 am

What I find works for me is to read a passage straight through, aloud, even if I don't understand it completely. Then I go back and read it aloud again, but slowly, and make notes of words or grammar that I need to check out. Then I check the words etc - and write them out in a notebook keyed to Book, chapter, verse. Then I mentally (silently) read the passage and see how things fit together, and when I've got that worked out I read it again aloud at normal speed and think about what the passage is saying.
Thanks for this advice! This seems like a really good approach.
If you are willing to spend money on it, I think Daryl Burling's https://masterntgreek.com/ gives you premade lists by book.
I think you might be right. I've looked into purchasing his material in the past for that very reason. It may be helpful. Thanks for the tip.
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Barry Hofstetter
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Re: Hoping for real reading proficiency

Post by Barry Hofstetter » August 13th, 2018, 11:36 am

seanmcguire wrote:
August 13th, 2018, 8:57 am
What I find works for me is to read a passage straight through, aloud, even if I don't understand it completely. Then I go back and read it aloud again, but slowly, and make notes of words or grammar that I need to check out. Then I check the words etc - and write them out in a notebook keyed to Book, chapter, verse. Then I mentally (silently) read the passage and see how things fit together, and when I've got that worked out I read it again aloud at normal speed and think about what the passage is saying.
Thanks for this advice! This seems like a really good approach.
If you are willing to spend money on it, I think Daryl Burling's https://masterntgreek.com/ gives you premade lists by book.
I think you might be right. I've looked into purchasing his material in the past for that very reason. It may be helpful. Thanks for the tip.
The precise way of doing these sorts of things can vary, and will change as the student gains proficiency. The principle, however, is to engage in as many ways as possible with the language. That includes reading, writing, arithmetic (oops, not that one so much, sorry), speaking out loud, listening to the text if a decent recording exists, etc. πρίν σε γινώσκειν, τὴν γλῶσσαν Ἑλληνικήν ποιεῖς!
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N.E. Barry Hofstetter
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
Χαίρετε ἐν κυρίῳ πάντοτε· πάλιν ἐρῶ, χαίρετε

Jonathan Robie
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Re: Hoping for real reading proficiency

Post by Jonathan Robie » August 13th, 2018, 12:11 pm

Barry Hofstetter wrote:
August 13th, 2018, 11:36 am
The precise way of doing these sorts of things can vary, and will change as the student gains proficiency. The principle, however, is to engage in as many ways as possible with the language. That includes reading, writing, arithmetic (oops, not that one so much, sorry) ...
Maybe a little arithmetic, certainly a little Geometry if that's what interests you ...
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ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

RandallButh
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Re: Hoping for real reading proficiency

Post by RandallButh » August 14th, 2018, 4:32 am

First--Euclid is available in Greek. It is an old classic.
For math, go for it.

Secondly, posts on this site often fail to appreciate the difference between 'canned sound', like reading outloud, and actually using the language for thinking, praying, talking to oneself and to others. There is a world of difference and reading outloud will NOT lead to true reading proficiency or internalization of a language. Sorry, humans arn't programed that way.
Real language use for communication is VITAL.
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Jacob Rhoden
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Re: Hoping for real reading proficiency

Post by Jacob Rhoden » August 18th, 2018, 1:42 am

RandallButh wrote:
August 14th, 2018, 4:32 am
There is a world of difference and reading outloud will NOT lead to true reading proficiency or internalization of a language. Sorry, humans arn't programed that way.
Real language use for communication is VITAL.
Which is why I am sad there is not enough demand for online/live koine/reconstructed classes such that someone can afford at some point to run classes in a time that is convenient for Australian time 😄 (Unless there are some that I am unaware of)
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Paul-Nitz
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Re: Hoping for real reading proficiency

Post by Paul-Nitz » August 19th, 2018, 12:47 pm

Seanmcguire wrote:
I am fascinated by the approach of those with a background in classics. I would love some advice on achieving greater reading proficiency. I know the key to this is reading lots of Greek, but I have some questions about that.
You’ve received some good advice here. I wonder what is “the approach by those with a background of classics.”

When you say that you want greater reading proficiency, I am assuming you mean this in the normal and natural way we understand “reading.” When we read, we do not stop and analyse each part of a sentence. We do not read words by their letters, but as a whole. We do not need to process morphology, saying internally, “Oh, ἐδέξατο must be an Aorist Middle/Passive form… so now, how does that play out in this sentence?” If you mean to say that you want to analyse, decode, and interpret text faster than you do at the present, that’s a different question and easier to answer.
To gain better reading comprehension we need to work toward an immediate and implicit understanding of what we are reading. I am not suggesting that we can read Greek like we would English. That is unattainable. But we can work toward better and better implicit understanding of the language.

How is that done? In short, that is done by taking language as communication and finding ways to make sense of it. This might seem obvious, but consider the common alternative of taking language as subject matter that we need to learn more about. That’s a very different approach. A very rare learner (over represented among Greek learners) can learn ABOUT language (explicit explanations, lists, and comparisons between languages) and parlay that into an implicit understanding of the language. If that’s you, you probably know what to do.

We in the vast majority simply do not learn language by explicit explanations about language. We need to view the text as communication of meaning and strive to understand it. In order to do that, it’s probably most useful to play around with the language in small bits and intensively.
One way is questioning. Grab the nearest Greek at hand, Hofstetter’s signature: Χαίρετε ἐν κυρίῳ πάντοτε· πάλιν ἐρῶ, χαίρετε. Now play with it. Ask the phrase questions like “who, what, when, to whom, how? Much better, learn to ask them in Greek (Somewhere, Robie has a nice doc on questioning). With practice, you’ll get better and better at it and can really start playing with the language:

τίς λέγει τοῦτο;
ἐν τίνι δεῖ ἡμᾶς χαίρειν;
διὰ τί εἶπεν τὸ ἐρῶ καὶ οὐκ εἶπεν τὸ λέγω;
διὰ τί ἐχαρή ὁ Παῦλος;
διὰ τί τοῦτο τὸ ῥῆμα Hoffstetter ἔχει ἐν τῷ signature αὐτοῦ;


If you want to use reading out loud as a strategy, make sure it is reading with expression (exaggerated, even) and gestures, as if communicating the text to someone. Believe it as you do it.

If you want to use listening, listen as if your next meal depended on understanding it. Consider using some auto-repetition software like Sound Scriber, http://www-personal.umich.edu/~ebreck/code/sscriber/

One of the best pieces of advice came some communicative methods Latin teacher’s blog (can’t remember which). He posed the question, “What should you read next?” His emphatic and convincing answer was, “The last thing you enjoyed.” There is some argument for wide reading, but there is generally better value in intensive reading. But give up on that same text if it’s no longer “real” to you. Whatever you do, as best as you can, make it a matter of communication.

Of course, this is very difficult when sitting in a study on your own. That’s where communities come in. Get someone and study together. Stay in the target language.

Yes, use translations, readers, online tools, pause to look up a word, read a grammatical explanation, whatever. Just let it all serve to make the language that is being communicated to you more comprehensible. Do not treat language as code that you want to more easily and more quickly decipher.
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Paul D. Nitz - Lilongwe Malawi

Barry Hofstetter
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Re: Hoping for real reading proficiency

Post by Barry Hofstetter » August 20th, 2018, 8:38 am

Paul-Nitz wrote:
August 19th, 2018, 12:47 pm
Seanmcguire wrote:
I am fascinated by the approach of those with a background in classics. I would love some advice on achieving greater reading proficiency. I know the key to this is reading lots of Greek, but I have some questions about that.
You’ve received some good advice here. I wonder what is “the approach by those with a background of classics.”
Well, for me, it meant reading a lot of Greek outside of the NT. It can also vary. I started Greek in 1977, and the approach was the fairly standard grammar-translation-reading method. Now, Paul offers excellent advice here, but...
τίς λέγει τοῦτο;
ἐν τίνι δεῖ ἡμᾶς χαίρειν;
διὰ τί εἶπεν τὸ ἐρῶ καὶ οὐκ εἶπεν τὸ λέγω;
διὰ τί ἐχαρή ὁ Παῦλος;
διὰ τί τοῦτο τὸ ῥῆμα Hoffstetter ἔχει ἐν τῷ signature αὐτοῦ;

ὑπογραφή for signature, and who is "Hoffstetter?"
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N.E. Barry Hofstetter
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
Χαίρετε ἐν κυρίῳ πάντοτε· πάλιν ἐρῶ, χαίρετε

Jonathan Robie
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Re: Hoping for real reading proficiency

Post by Jonathan Robie » August 20th, 2018, 10:03 am

Paul-Nitz wrote:
August 19th, 2018, 12:47 pm
Much better, learn to ask them in Greek (Somewhere, Robie has a nice doc on questioning).
Here is the one I think you are talking about:

Asking Questions in Biblical Greek.pdf

You can download it with this link.

Jannaris also has a very useful chapter, which you can download at this link.

Oddly, many textbooks don't really teach this in any depth.
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ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

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