τουτου in Athenasius Against Pagans & Incarnation

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Stirling Bartholomew
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τουτου in Athenasius Against Pagans & Incarnation

Post by Stirling Bartholomew » November 16th, 2018, 5:04 pm

Been spending a lot of time reading Athenasius. Gradually became aware of τουτου appearing in contexts where it wasn't obvious why it was chosen. Decided to look at statistics comparing τουτου to αυτου. This isn't science. Just a rough way of testing my suspicion, nothing more than a hunch really, that something unusual is going on in the text I am reading.

The ratio of τουτου to αυτου in NA27 is roughly 1:20

In Cyril of Alexandria it is roughly 1:11

In Athanasius Contra Gentes & Incarnation it is roughly 1:2.4

In Athanasius corpus including all the spurious texts it is roughly 1:5.6

These numbers are not bomb proof. I used the best methods at my disposal.
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C. Stirling Bartholomew

Barry Hofstetter
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Re: τουτου in Athenasius Against Pagans & Incarnation

Post by Barry Hofstetter » November 17th, 2018, 7:36 am

And...? What's the payoff here? How does this better help us understand Athanasius' use of the word?
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N.E. Barry Hofstetter
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Stirling Bartholomew
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Re: τουτου in Athenasius Against Pagans & Incarnation

Post by Stirling Bartholomew » November 17th, 2018, 3:32 pm

What triggered this question was τούτου used in reference to ὁ χριστὸς or ὁ λόγος τοῦ θεοῦ or ὁ θεός. Following examples from Incarnation.
§ 11.7 Καὶ ὅλως πάντα ἦν ἀσεβείας καὶ παρα νομίας μεστά, καὶ μόνος ὁ Θεὸς οὐδὲ ὁ τούτου Λόγος ἐπεγινώσκετο, καίτοι οὐκ ἀφανῆ ἑαυτὸν τοῖς ἀνθρώποις ἐπικρύψας, οὐδὲ ἁπλῆν τὴν περὶ ἑαυτοῦ γνῶσιν αὐτοῖς δε δωκώς, ἀλλὰ καὶ ποικίλως καὶ διὰ πολλῶν αὐτὴν αὐτοῖς ἐφαπλώσας.

§ 11.7. And, in a word, everything was full of irreligion and lawlessness, and God alone, and His Word, was unknown, albeit He had not hidden Himself out of men’s sight, nor given the knowledge of Himself in one way only; but had, on the contrary, unfolded it to them in many forms and by many ways.

§ 17.1 Οὐ γὰρ δὴ περικεκλεισμένος ἦν ἐν τῷ σώματι· οὐδὲ ἐν σώματι μὲν ἦν, ἀλλαχόσε δὲ οὐκ ἦν. Οὐδὲ ἐκεῖνο μὲν ἐκίνει, τὰ ὅλα δὲ τῆς τούτου ἐνεργείας καὶ προνοίας κεκένωτο·

§ 17.1 For He was not, as might be imagined, circumscribed in the body, nor, while present in the body, was He absent elsewhere; nor, while He moved the body, was the universe left void of His working and Providence;

§ 19.3 Ταῦτα δὲ τὸν μὲν ἐν τῷ σταυρῷ Χριστὸν Θεὸν ἐδείκνυον, τὴν δὲ κτίσιν πᾶσαν τούτου δούλην εἶναι, καὶ μαρτυροῦσαν τῷ φόβῳ τὴν τοῦ δεσπότου παρουσίαν.

§ 19.3 Now these things showed that Christ on the Cross was God, while all creation was His slave, and was witnessing by its fear to its Master's presence.

trans. Archibald Robertson, 1891.
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C. Stirling Bartholomew

Stirling Bartholomew
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Re: τουτου in Athenasius Against Pagans & Incarnation

Post by Stirling Bartholomew » November 17th, 2018, 5:17 pm

More samples, the last of which compared to the gospels:
§ 23.1 Τῆς δὲ ἀναστάσεως προηγεῖσθαι δεῖ θάνατον, ἐπεὶ οὐκ ἂν εἴη ἀνάστασις μὴ προηγουμένου θανάτου· ὅθεν εἰ κρύφα που ἐγεγόνει τοῦ σώματος ὁ θάνατος, οὐ φαινομένου τοῦ θανάτου, οὐδὲ ἐπὶ μαρτύρων γενομένου, ἀφανὴς ἦν καὶ ἀμάρτυρος καὶ ἡ τούτου ἀνάστασις·

§ 23.1Now, death must precede resurrection, as it would be no resurrection did not death precede; so that if the death of His body had taken place anywhere in secret, the death not being apparent nor taking place before witnesses, His Resurrection too had been hidden and without evidence.

§ 23.3 Πῶς δὲ καὶ οἱ τούτου μαθηταὶ παρρησίαν εἶχον περὶ τοῦ τῆς ἀναστάσεως λόγου, οὐκ ἔχοντες εἰπεῖν ὅτι πρῶτον ἀπέθανεν;

§ 23.3 Or how were His disciples to have boldness in speaking of the Resurrection, were they not able to say that He first died?

§ 24.1 Τάχα γὰρ ἄν τις εἴποι καὶ τοῦτο· Εἰ ἐπ' ὄψει πάντων καὶ ἐμμάρτυρον ἔδει γενέσθαι τὸν τούτου θάνατον, ἵνα καὶ ὁ τῆς ἀναστάσεως πιστευθῇ λόγος, ἔδει κἂν αὐτὸν ἑαυτῷ ἔνδοξον ἐπινοῆσαι θάνατον, ἵνα μόνον τὴν ἀτιμίαν τοῦ σταυροῦ φύγῃ.

§ 24.1 If it was necessary for His death to take place before all, and with witnesses, that the story of His Resurrection also might be believed, it would have been better at any rate for Him to have devised for Himself a glorious death, if only to escape the ignominy of the Cross.

§ 25.3 Ἔπειτα, εἰ ὁ θάνατος τοῦ Κυρίου λύτρον ἐστὶ πάντων, καὶ τῷ θανάτῳ τούτου τὸ μεσότοιχον τοῦ φραγμοῦ λύεται, καὶ γίνεται τῶν ἐθνῶν ἡ κλῆσις, πῶς ἂν ἡμᾶς προσεκαλέσατο, εἰ μὴ ἐσταύρωτο;

§ 25.3 Again, if the Lord's death is the ransom of all, and by His death "the middle Ephesians 2:14 wall of partition" is broken down, and the calling of the nations is brought about, how would He have called us to Him, had He not been crucified?
Compare § 24.1 and § 25.3 with:

John 11:13 εἰρήκει δὲ ὁ Ἰησοῦς περὶ τοῦ θανάτου αὐτοῦ, ἐκεῖνοι δὲ ἔδοξαν ὅτι περὶ τῆς κοιμήσεως τοῦ ὕπνου λέγει.

Rom. 5:10 εἰ γὰρ ἐχθροὶ ὄντες κατηλλάγημεν τῷ θεῷ διὰ τοῦ θανάτου τοῦ υἱοῦ αὐτοῦ, πολλῷ μᾶλλον καταλλαγέντες σωθησόμεθα ἐν τῇ ζωῇ αὐτοῦ·

Rom. 6:3 ἢ ἀγνοεῖτε ὅτι, ὅσοι ἐβαπτίσθημεν εἰς Χριστὸν Ἰησοῦν, εἰς τὸν θάνατον αὐτοῦ ἐβαπτίσθημεν;

Rom. 6:5 εἰ γὰρ σύμφυτοι γεγόναμεν τῷ ὁμοιώματι τοῦ θανάτου αὐτοῦ, ἀλλὰ καὶ τῆς ἀναστάσεως ἐσόμεθα·

Phil. 3:10 τοῦ γνῶναι αὐτὸν καὶ τὴν δύναμιν τῆς ἀναστάσεως αὐτοῦ καὶ [τὴν] κοινωνίαν [τῶν] παθημάτων αὐτοῦ, συμμορφιζόμενος τῷ θανάτῳ αὐτοῦ,
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Re: τουτου in Athenasius Against Pagans & Incarnation

Post by Barry Hofstetter » November 18th, 2018, 4:24 pm

Thanks, Stirling, that's helpful. Using the the demonstrative as a simple third person is fairly common in Greek in general, but usually has a bit of a deictic focus, i.e., this particular person or thing in context as opposed to someone else or thing in the context. In some writers, however, it can become practically indistinguishable from αὐτός as the third person pronoun. I expect that's the case here, although one would have to look at context to make sure.
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Re: τουτου in Athanasius Against Pagans & Incarnation

Post by Stirling Bartholomew » November 21st, 2018, 1:18 pm

I found some more examples from On The Incarnation. This seems to be something Athanasius does regularly, perhaps more often than others. I will show a few samples from other fathers in the next post.
§ 28.5 ... οὕτως καὶ ὁ ἀπιστῶν περὶ τῆς τοῦ θανάτου νίκης λαμβανέτω τὴν πίστιν τοῦ Χριστοῦ, καὶ εἰς τὴν τούτου διδασκαλίαν παρερχέσθω ...

§ 28.5 ... so too let him who is incredulous about the victory over death receive the faith of Christ, and pass over to His teaching ...

§ 30.6 Ἔνθα γὰρ ὀνομάζεται Χριστὸς καὶ ἡ τούτου πίστις, ἐκεῖθεν πᾶσα μὲν εἰδωλολατρία καθαιρεῖται ...

§ 30.6 For where Christ is named, and His faith, there all idolatry is deposed ...

§ 32.4 ... Εἰ δὲ διώκονται φανερῶς τῇ τούτου ὀνομασίᾳ, δῆλον ἂν εἴη μὴ εἶναι τοῦτον νεκρόν ...

§ 32.4 ... But if they be manifestly expelled by the naming of His name, it must be evident that He is not dead;

§ 34.1 Οὐ σεσιώπηται δὲ οὐδὲ ὁ τούτου θάνατος· ἀλλὰ καὶ λίαν τηλαυγῶς ἐν ταῖς θείαις σημαίνεται γραφαῖς.

§ 34.1 Nor is even His death passed over in silence: on the contrary, it is referred to in the divine Scriptures ...

§ 37.3 ... Οὐ γάρ ἐστιν ὃς δύναται τὸν κατὰ σάρκα πατέρα τούτου λέγειν, οὐκ ὄντος τοῦ σώματος αὐτοῦ ἐξ ἀνδρὸς ἀλλ' ἐκ παρθένου μόνης.

§ 37.3 ... For there is none that can tell His father after the flesh, His body not being of a man, but of a virgin alone;

§ 37.7 ... καὶ τῷ τούτου θανάτῳ ἡ σωτηρία πᾶσι γέγονε,

§ 37.7 ... and by His death has salvation come to all

§ 41.4 Εἰ δὲ ὁμολογοῦσιν εἶναι Λόγον Θεοῦ, καὶ τοῦτον Ἡγεμόνα τοῦ παντός, καὶ ἐν αὐτῷ τὸν Πατέρα δεδημιουρ γηκέναι τὴν κτίσιν, καὶ τῇ τούτου προνοίᾳ τὰ ὅλα φωτίζεσθαι καὶ ζωογονεῖσθαι καὶ εἶναι, καὶ ἐπὶ πάντων αὐτὸν βασιλεύειν, ὡς ἐκ τῶν ἔργων τῆς προνοίας γινώσκεσθαι αὐτὸν ...

§ 41.4 But if they confess that there is a Word of God, and He ruler of the universe, and that in Him the Father has produced the creation, and that by His Providence the whole receives light and life and being, and that He reigns over all, so that from the works of His providence He is known ...

§ 43.5 Ἄνθρωποι γὰρ ὄντες, διὰ τοῦ καταλλήλου σώματος καὶ τῶν δι' αὐτοῦ θείων ἔργων, ταχύτερον καὶ ἐγγύτερον τὸν τούτου Πατέρα γινώσκειν δυνήσονται, συγκρίνοντες ὡς οὐκ ἀνθρώπινα, ἀλλὰ Θεοῦ ἔργα ἐστί, τὰ ὑπ' αὐτοῦ γινόμενα.

§ 43.5 For, men as they are, they will be able to know His Father more quickly and directly by a body of like nature and by the divine works wrought through it, judging by comparison that they are not human, but the works of God, which are done by Him.

§ 44.1 Ἀλλ' ἴσως συγκαταθήσονται μὲν τούτοις αἰσχυνόμενοι, θελήσουσι δὲ λέγειν, ὅτι ἔδει τὸν Θεόν, παιδεῦσαι καὶ σῶσαι θέλοντα τοὺς ἀνθρώπους, νεύματι μόνον ποιῆσαι, καὶ μὴ σώματος ἅψασθαι τὸν τούτου Λόγον, ὥσπερ οὖν καὶ πάλαι πεποίηκεν, ὅτε ἐκ τοῦ μὴ ὄντος αὐτὰ συνίστη.

§ 44.1 But perhaps, shamed into agreeing with this, they will choose to say that God, if He wished to reform and to save mankind, ought to have done so by a mere fiat, without His word taking a body, in just the same way as He did formerly, when He produced them out of nothing.

§ 45.4 Εἰ δὲ καὶ εἰς ᾅδην τις κατέβη, καὶ πρὸς τοὺς ἐκεῖ κατελ θόντας ἥρωας ἐπτόηται ὡς θεούς, ἀλλ' ὁρᾷ τὴν τούτου γενομένην ἀνάστασιν, καὶ τὴν κατὰ τοῦ θανάτου νίκην, καὶ λογίζεται καὶ ἐν ἐκείνοις μόνον εἶναι τὸν Χριστὸν ἀληθινὸν Κύριον καὶ Θεόν.

§ 45.4 But if a man is gone down even to Hades, and stands in awe of the heroes who have descended there, regarding them as gods, yet he may see the fact of Christ's Resurrection and victory over death, and infer that among them also Christ alone is true God and Lord.

§ 48.6 Εἰ δὲ κατὰ πάσης ἁπλῶς μαγείας καὶ αὐτοῦ τοῦ ὀνόματος αὐτῆς ἤρατο τὴν νίκην ὁ τούτου σταυρός, δῆλον ἂν εἴη μὴ εἶναι μάγον τὸν Σωτῆρα, ὃν καὶ οἱ παρὰ τῶν ἄλλων μάγων ἐπικαλούμενοι δαίμονες ὡς δεσπότην φεύγουσι.

§ 48.6 but if His Cross has won the victory over absolutely all magic, and over the very name of it, it must be plain that the Saviour is not a magician, seeing that even those demons who are invoked by the other magicians fly from Him as their Master.

§ 48.8 ... Εἰ δὲ πᾶσα τῶν δαιμόνων μανία ἐξίσταται τῇ τούτου ὀνομασίᾳ καὶ διώκεται, φανερὸν ἂν εἴη καὶ ἐν τούτῳ πλανᾶσθαι αὐτούς, καὶ μὴ εἶναι ὡς νομίζουσι δαιμονικήν τινα δύναμιν τὸν Κύριον ἡμῶν καὶ Σωτῆρα Χριστόν.

§ 48.8 ... But if, by His Name being named, all madness of the demons is uprooted and chased away, it must be evident that here, too, they are wrong, and that our Lord and Saviour Christ is not, as they think, some demoniacal power.

§ 49.6 Ἢ διὰ τί, εἴπερ ἄνθρωπός ἐστιν ὁ Χριστὸς καὶ οὐ Θεὸς Λόγος κατ' αὐτούς, οὐ κωλύεται ὑπὸ τῶν παρ' αὐτοῖς θεῶν εἰς τὴν αὐτὴν χώραν, ἔνθα εἰσί, τὸ τούτου σέβας διαβῆναι, ἀλλὰ μᾶλλον αὐτὸς ὁ Λόγος ἐπιδημῶν τῇ διδασκαλίᾳ ἑαυτοῦ τὴν ἐκείνων θρησκείαν παύει, καὶ τὴν φαντασίαν αὐτῶν καταισχύνει;

§ 49.6 Or why, if Christ is, as they say, a man, and not God the Word, is not His worship prevented by the gods they have from passing into the same land where they are? Or why on the contrary does the Word Himself, sojourning here, by His teaching stop their worship and put their deception to shame?

§ 55.3 ... οὐκ ἔτι μὲν ἰσχύει τὸ τῶν εἰδώλων σκότος, πάντα δὲ τὰ πανταχοῦ τῆς οἰκουμένης μέρη τῇ τούτου διδασκαλίᾳ καταλάμπεται.

§ 55.3 ... the darkness of the idols prevails no more, and all parts of the world in every direction are illumined by His teaching.
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C. Stirling Bartholomew

Stirling Bartholomew
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Re: τουτου in Athenasius Against Pagans & Incarnation

Post by Stirling Bartholomew » November 21st, 2018, 1:27 pm

A few other authors. Why bother with this project? It is an opportunity to encounter patristic texts from outside my comfort zone. Most patristic texts are outside my comfort zone. Trying to get over that.

Discovered that the NEW ADVENT site allows you to search English patristic texts which is very useful. Thats how I found the citation from Origen Contra Celsum.
http://www.newadvent.org/utility/search ... 2F0416.htm
THEODORETUS, epist. Saint Paul. 1st cor 15

γʹ. «Παρέδωκα γὰρ ὑμῖν ἐν πρώτοις ὃ καὶ παρ-
έλαβον.» Οὐ γὰρ αὐτὸς εὗρον τὸ κήρυγμα, οὐδὲ ἀνθρω- (15)
πίνοις ἠκολούθησα λογισμοῖς· ἀλλὰ παρὰ τοῦ Δεσπό-
του Χριστοῦ τὴν τούτου διδασκαλίαν παρέλαβον. Τί
δὲ παρέλαβες; «Ὅτι Χριστὸς ἀπέθανεν ὑπὲρ τῶν
ἁμαρτιῶν ἡμῶν, κατὰ τὰς Γραφάς.» Τοῦτο γὰρ καὶ
οἱ προφῆται προεῖπον, καὶ βοᾷ Ἡσαΐας· «Αὐτὸς δὲ (20)
ἐτραυματίσθη διὰ τὰς ἀνομίας ἡμῶν, καὶ μεμαλά-
κισται διὰ τὰς ἁμαρτίας ἡμῶν, παιδεία εἰρήνης
ἡμῶν ἐπ’ αὐτόν.»
JOANNES CHRYSOSTOMUS spurious?
Μὴ οὐκ
ἐποίησε; Καλέσας οὖν αὐτὴν αὐστηρῷ τῷ προσώπῳ,
κριτὴς τοῦ ἐν κοιλίᾳ κριτοῦ ἐκαθέζετο. Λέγε μοι, φησὶ,
μετὰ ἀκριβείας τὸ γέγονός σοι· μὴ κρύψῃς με τὸ συμ- (45)
βάν σοι· οὐδεὶς ὁ παρὼν τῶν λόγων ἀκροατής· οἶδα φυ-
λάττειν μυστήρια· οὐδεὶς μανθάνει τὸ πρᾶγμα, μόνον
με πληροφόρησον. Πόθεν τοῦτο ὑπάρχει τὸ ὁρώμενον ἐν
σοί; τὸν τούτου πατέρα ὑπόδειξόν μοι, καὶ ἐλευθερῶ σε
τοῦ πταίσματος· συγγνώμης γὰρ ἀξιωθήσῃ, ὡς ἐν ἐπι- (50)
θυμίᾳ νικηθεῖσα γυνή. Καὶ ἡ παρθένος πρὸς αὐτὸν ἀπ-
εκρίνατο· Εἰ πατέρα τούτου ζητεῖς, εὑρήσεις οὐδέποτε·
εἰ δὲ καὶ ὀρφανὸν νομίσεις, καὶ τούτου ἀπέτυχες. Καὶ ὁ
Ἰωσήφ· Οὐδὲν ψεύσασθαι, Μαρία, δεδύνησαι· πῶς γὰρ
δύναται ὀρφανὸν μὴ εἶναι καὶ πατέρα μὴ ἔχειν; Καὶ (55)
ἡ παρθένος· Εἰ δὲ ζητεῖς τίς, Ἰωσὴφ (ἀγνοεῖς γὰρ), ἐὰν
εἴπω σοι τὸ ἀληθὲς, οὐ πιστεύομαι. Κοιλίαν βλέπεις, καὶ
τὸν κρυπτόμενον Κύριον οὐχ ὁρᾷς· γαστέρα κατανοεῖς,
καὶ οὐ λογίζῃ τὸν ἐκ γαστρὸς πρὸ ἑωσφόρου ἐκ Πατρὸς
γεννηθέντα, καὶ ἐν ἐμοὶ αὐλιζόμενον. Εἰ εἴπω σοι, ὃ εἶπέ (60)
μοι ὁ ἄγγελος, ἐρεῖς, ὅτι Ἑαυτῇ μαρτυρεῖς, καὶ ἡ μαρ-
τυρία σου οὐκ ἔστιν ἀληθής
Origen gets the prize for the most demonstrative density:
Origen Contra Celsum

Τούτῳ δὲ παραδοξότερος οὗτος ἐκ νεκρῶν ἀναστὰς παρ'
ἐκείνους, ὅτι ἐκείνους μὲν προφῆται ἀνέστησαν Ἠλίας καὶ
Ἐλισσαῖος, τοῦτον δ' οὐδεὶς τῶν προφητῶν ἀλλ' ὁ ἐν τοῖς
οὐρανοῖς πατήρ. Διόπερ καὶ μείζονα εἰργάσατο ἡ τούτου
ἀνάστασις τῆς ἐκείνων ἀναστάσεως. Τί γὰρ τηλικοῦτον τῷ
κόσμῳ ἀπὸ τῶν ἀναστάντων παιδαρίων δι' Ἠλίου καὶ
Ἐλισσαίου γεγένηται, ὁποῖον διὰ τῆς κηρυσσομένης ἀναστά-
σεως Ἰησοῦ, δυνάμει θείᾳ πεπιστευμένης;

And His resurrection is more miraculous than that of the others in this respect, that they were raised by the prophets Elijah and Elisha, while He was raised by none of the prophets, but by His Father in heaven. And therefore His resurrection also produced greater results than theirs. For what great good has accrued to the world from the resurrection of the children through the instrumentality of Elijah and Elisha, such as has resulted from the preaching of the resurrection of Jesus, accepted as an article of belief, and as effected through the agency of divine power?
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