Ephesians 5:32 – λέγω εἰς and καὶ εἰς

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Bill Ross
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Ephesians 5:32 – λέγω εἰς and καὶ εἰς

Post by Bill Ross » April 14th, 2019, 2:39 pm

Eph 5:32
τὸ μυστήριον τοῦτο μέγα ἐστίν
ἐγὼ δὲ λέγω εἰς Χριστὸν καὶ εἰς τὴν ἐκκλησίαν

λέγω εἰς is normally understood as "I speak concerning..." but it seems non-standard to me (and does not seem to be otherwise attested in the NT). I would expect a different preposition.

Also, does the repeated καὶ suggest that Paul is NOT speaking:

"toward Christ and the Assembly"

But rather:

"toward Christ" and "toward the Assembly"

?

In other words is he alerting us that his subject is the union or that he has something to say about Christ and something to say about the Assembly?
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Bill Ross
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Re: Ephesians 5:32 — λέγω εἰς and καὶ εἰς

Post by Bill Ross » April 14th, 2019, 5:12 pm

I didn't mean second καὶ but rather the second εἰς.
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Daniel Semler
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Re: Ephesians 5:32 — λέγω εἰς and καὶ εἰς

Post by Daniel Semler » April 14th, 2019, 5:37 pm

Hi Bill,

I see five cases of λεγω εις in the NT, though Jn 8:26 is not the same sense. And some might consider Lk 22:65 to be "against" rather than "concerning". So three maybe four "speaking concerning".

Luke 22:65 καὶ ἕτερα πολλὰ βλασφημοῦντες ἔλεγον εἰς αὐτόν.
John 8:26 πολλὰ ἔχω περὶ ὑμῶν λαλεῖν καὶ κρίνειν· ἀλ ὁ πέμψας με ἀληθής ἐστι, κἀγὼ ἃ ἤκουσα παῤ αὐτοῦ, ταῦτα λέγω εἰς τὸν κόσμον.
Acts 2:25 Δαυῒδ γὰρ λέγει εἰς αὐτόν· προωρώμην τὸν Κύριον ἐνώπιόν μου διὰ παντός, ὅτι ἐκ δεξιῶν μου ἐστιν ἵνα μὴ σαλευθῶ.
Acts 19:4 εἶπε δὲ Παῦλος· Ἰωάννης μὲν ἐβάπτισε βάπτισμα μετανοίας, τῷ λαῷ λέγων εἰς τὸν ἐρχόμενον με αὐτὸν ἵνα πιστεύσωσι, τοῦ ἔστιν εἰς τὸν Ἰησοῦν Χριστόν.
Eph. 5:32 τὸ μυστήριον τοῦτο μέγα ἐστίν, ἐγὼ δὲ λέγω εἰς Χριστὸν καὶ εἰς τὴν

Which preposition were you expecting ? περί ?

Thx
D
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Bill Ross
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Re: Ephesians 5:32 — λέγω εἰς and καὶ εἰς

Post by Bill Ross » April 14th, 2019, 6:23 pm

Thanks, yes, peri or hupo/huper/epi, I guess - anything but eis!

Any opinion about the second eis?
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Re: Ephesians 5:32 — λέγω εἰς and καὶ εἰς

Post by Bill Ross » April 14th, 2019, 7:03 pm

I could be persuaded to read it as: "I am applying this to Christ and I'm applying it to the Assembly".
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MAubrey
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Re: Ephesians 5:32 — λέγω εἰς and καὶ εἰς

Post by MAubrey » April 14th, 2019, 7:23 pm

We have a similar construction in English: "I can speak to this issue," though it has a very narrow distribution.

Josephus, Antiquities 5.209 has:
καὶ οὕτως μὲν ἡ νίκη αὕτη περιέστη κατὰ τὰ ὑπὸ Δαβώρας εἰρημένα εἰς γυναῖκα
And thus this victory stands according to what was spoken by Deborah about a woman.

You should also perhaps look up the various references in BDAG's 5th sense for εἰς.
BDAG, 291 wrote:⑤ marker of a specific point of reference, for, to, with respect to, with reference to (Arrian, Anab. 6, 26, 3 τοῦτο τὸ ἔργον εἰς καρτερίαν ἐπαινῶ Ἀλεξάνδρου=I praise this deed with regard to Alexander’s endurance; Ath. 31, 1 οὐδὲν χείρους εἰς ἀρετῆς λόγον ‘none the worse in respect to excellence’) εὔθετος εἴς τι fit, suitable for someth. Lk 14:35; also εὔχρηστος 2 Ti 4:11. ἡτοιμασμένος ready for 2:21. εὐκαιρέω εἴς τι Ac 17:21. ἱκανόω Col 1:12. ἰσχύω Mt 5:13. περισσεύω 2 Cor 9:8. συνεργέω Ro 8:28. τοῦτο οὐκ εἰς ταύτας τ. ἡμέρας λέγω I say this not with reference to these days Hs 9, 26, 6.—After the verbs ἀπορέομαι, διακρίνομαι, καυχάομαι, παρρησίαν ἔχω, s. these entries. After the adj. ἄκαρπος, ἀκέραιος, βραδύς, σοφός, συνεργός, ὑπήκοος, φρόνιμος, s. these entries. W. acc. of pers. ἀσθενεῖν εἴς τινα be weak toward someone 2 Cor 13:3. εὐδοκεῖν 2 Pt 1:17. λέγειν εἴς τινα say w. reference to someone (Diod S 11, 50, 4; Just., D. 77, 1 εἰς Χριστὸν … εἰρῆσθαι) Ac 2:25.—On Ro 6:17 s. παραδίδωμι 1b end. δέχομαί τινα εἰς ὄνομά τινος Mt 10:41f; s. ὄνομα 1dγא.
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Bill Ross
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Re: Ephesians 5:32 — λέγω εἰς and καὶ εἰς

Post by Bill Ross » April 14th, 2019, 7:53 pm

Okay, thanks. It still sounds weird to me but as long as it sounds okay to you I'm on board.

Any opinion on the second εἰς suggesting two objects instead of one dual object?
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Daniel Semler
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Re: Ephesians 5:32 — λέγω εἰς and καὶ εἰς

Post by Daniel Semler » April 14th, 2019, 8:47 pm

Not sure about the second είς. But while checking BDAG for any refs to Eph 5:32 I found this in the entry for λεγω:

b. w. indication of the pers. or thing about which someth. is said, or that is meant by someth.
α. by a prep. περί τινος (Soph., Thu. et al.) οἱ Φαρισαῖοι ἔγνωσαν ὅτι περὶ αὐτῶν λέγει the Pharisees perceived that he was talking about them Mt 21:45. λέγει περὶ αὐτοῦ he said concerning him J 1:47; cp. 2:21; 11:13; 13:18, 22. εἴς τινα (Eur., Med. 453; X., Mem. 1, 5, 1) Ac 2:25; Eph 5:32. ἐπί τινα Hb 7:13. πρός τινα Lk 12:41; Hb 1:7.

Robertson comments on repeated prepositions noting it occurs but not coming to any hard and fast rule concerning interpretation:

(b) REPETITION WITH SEVERAL NOUNS. When several nouns are used with the same preposition the preposition is repeated rather more frequently than in the earlier Greek.1 Winer2 thinks that the repetition occurs only when the two or more substantives do not come easily under the same category. Within limits this is true (cf. repetition of the article), but there is rather more freedom in the later Greek on this point. In Jo. 4:23 we do have a similar idea in the phrase ἐν πνέματι καὶ ἀληθείᾳ as in ἀπὸ φόβου καὶ προσδοκίας in Lu. 21:26 Cf. ἐν Λύστροις καὶ Ἰκονίῳ (Ac. 16:2), but in verse 1 observe καὶ εἰς Δέρβην καὶ εἰς Λύστραν, where perhaps the double conjunction plays some part. Indeed with καὶ — καί or τε — καί the preposition is commonly repeated. Thus καὶ ἐν ὀλίγῳ καὶ ἐν μεγάλῳ (Ac. 26:29), ἔν τε τοῖς δεσμοῖς μου καὶ ἐν τῇ ἀπολογίᾳ (Ph. 1:7). With disjunctive conjunctions the repetition is usual also, as ἀπὸ ἀκανθῶν ἢ ἀπὸ τριβόλων (Mt. 7:16). With antithesis the repetition is the rule, as μὴ ἐν σοφίᾳ ἀλλ᾿ ἐν δυνάμει (1 Cor. 2:5. Cf. also verse 4). But one cannot properly insist on any ironclad rule when he considers a case like ἀπὸ Μωυσέως καὶ ἀπὸ πάντων τῶν προφητῶν (Lu. 24:27), πρὸς Σίμωνα Πέτρον καὶ πρὸς τὸν ἄλλον (Jo. 20:2), ἐν δυνάμει καὶ ἐν πνεύματι ἁγίῳ καὶ ἐν πληροφορίᾳ (1 Th. 1:5). In a comparison again the preposition is repeated, as ἐπ᾿ αὐτοὺς —ὥσπερ καὶ ἐφ᾿ ἡμᾶς (Ac. 11:15). But even with disjunctive conjunctions the preposition is not always repeated, as ἐπὶ δυσὶν ἢ τρισίν (Heb. 10:28). In Ac. 26:18 ἀπό is not repeated, though εἰς occurs in one member of the sentence and ἐπί in the other. In Jo. 16:8 περί is repeated for rhetorical reasons, περί ἁμαρτίας καὶ περί δικαιοσύης καὶ περί κρίσεως. Cf. Eph. 6:12 where the repetition occurs without a conjunction, πρὸς τὰς ἀρχάς, πρὸς τὰς ἐξουσίας, πρὸς τοὺς κοσμοκράτορας, etc. Cf. also Jo. 17:9.

I did a quick search of the NT for εἰς noun καί εἰς noun as adjuncts to a single verb and it occurs in a maybe five places in the NT. We can say the same sort of thing in English (from Lk 8:34) "and they reported it in the city and in the countryside". If we said "and they reported it in the city and the countryside" it might seem slightly less prominent I guess. It might just be a stylistic preference or an emphasis but I'm not inclined to read much into it without studying it more.

Thx
D
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Re: Ephesians 5:32 — λέγω εἰς and καὶ εἰς

Post by Barry Hofstetter » April 15th, 2019, 10:26 am

Bill Ross wrote:
April 14th, 2019, 2:39 pm
Eph 5:32
τὸ μυστήριον τοῦτο μέγα ἐστίν
ἐγὼ δὲ λέγω εἰς Χριστὸν καὶ εἰς τὴν ἐκκλησίαν

λέγω εἰς is normally understood as "I speak concerning..." but it seems non-standard to me (and does not seem to be otherwise attested in the NT). I would expect a different preposition.

Also, does the repeated καὶ suggest that Paul is NOT speaking:

"toward Christ and the Assembly"

But rather:

"toward Christ" and "toward the Assembly"

?

In other words is he alerting us that his subject is the union or that he has something to say about Christ and something to say about the Assembly?
What would "toward" Christ and "toward" the assembly mean? λέγω + εἰς, "to speak regarding or concerning" is pretty standard. You've seen the BDAG references above, here's the LSJ:

IV. to express RELATION, towards, in regard to, ἐξαμαρτεῖν εἰς θεούς A.Pr.945, etc.; ἁμάρτημα εἴς τινα, αἰτίαι ἐς ἀλλήλους, Isoc.8.96, Th.1.66; ὄνειδος ὀνειδίζειν εἴς τινα S.Ph.522; ἔχθρη ἔς τινα Hdt.6.65; φιλία ἐς ἀμφοτέρους Th.2.9; λέγειν ἐς .. Hdt.1.86; γνώμη ἀποδεχθεῖσα ἐς τὴν γέφυραν Id.4.98; ἡ ἐς γῆν καὶ θάλασσαν ἀρχή Th.8.46.

Liddell, H. G., Scott, R., Jones, H. S., & McKenzie, R. (1996). A Greek-English lexicon (p. 491). Oxford: Clarendon Press.
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Bill Ross
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Re: In Ephesians 5:32 λέγω εἰς and καὶ εἰς

Post by Bill Ross » April 15th, 2019, 11:03 am

Hi Barry,

I was not proposing "toward" but was just using that as a place holder for my question about the second εἰς.

I did just find this translation that tries to be more formally equivalent that most:

Berean Literal Bible
This mystery is great; but I speak as to Christ and as to the church.

When read that way it seems to say that he is not talking about the union of Christ and the Assembly but rather something like:

"I am referring to Christ but I am also talking about how the Assembly works".

Again, I'm trying to "tease out" any possible additional or more accurate information found in these word choices. There might not be any. But this is usually taken to refer to "Christ and [his relationship to] the Church" and to my ears, that extra εἰς makes that unlikely, so I run it by you guys!

There is also this one that I just saw:

Good News Translation
There is a deep secret truth revealed in this scripture, which I understand as applying to Christ and the church.

Although I would render it:

...There is a deep secret truth revealed in this scripture, which I understand as applying to Christ *and to the church*.

Does that work?


https://biblehub.com/ephesians/5-32.htm
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