Pls explain syntax of Luke 24:21

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Daniel Semler
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Re: Pls explain syntax of Luke 24:21

Post by Daniel Semler » May 5th, 2019, 6:29 pm

Hi Dimi,

I guess where I would start on this is looking that ἀλλά γε καἱ and see if there is support for another interpretation in cases like this one (TLG http://stephanus.tlg.uci.edu - I get 28 hits on the free access corpus). I see your point about the 'weakness' of the rendering, if indeed the Greek is intended to convey abject disappointment at having apparently been so wrong about this person in whom one has put so much trust. One has to ask two things : is that in fact what the text is trying to convey ? and secondly, if so, how best to convey that in English ? Getting at the first will be aided by studying the other cases. "but indeed also" or the like sound rather too positive to communicate such a disappointment. But if the text is intended to convey a matter of fact retelling of recent events, to someone thought to be a disinterested third party, then probably not.

Thx
D
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Jonathan Robie
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Re: Pls explain syntax of Luke 24:21

Post by Jonathan Robie » May 5th, 2019, 7:17 pm

This paper has a useful discussion of Luke 24:21:

The Discourse Function of ἀλλά in Non-Negative Contexts (Rick Brannan)
Rick Brannan wrote:BDAG file these instances in sense 3, “before independent clauses, to indicate that the preceding is to be regarded as a settled matter, thus forming a transition to something new” (BDAG, p. 45.). BDAG rightly consider both elements of the conjoined structure but classifies the function of both instances of ἀλλά as simply transitory, moving from old information to new information.

These instances are equally and more consistently explainable if ἀλλά marks contrast and indicates replacement or correction. This is, functionally, a counterpoint (v. 21a) followed by two consecutive points introduced by ἀλλά (v. 21b and v. 22a).

The counterpoint sets the scene by stating the hope that Jesus was the Messiah, the redeemer of Israel. He had prophesied that something would happen on the third day after his death. Yet the initial point (the first ἀλλά) states that it was now the third day after his death, and nothing had happened. This corrects the counterpoint; perhaps Jesus wasn’t the Messiah because nothing had happened.

Into this nascent doubt comes the next point: “But some of the women in our company amazed us ...”. This corrects the previous doubt of Jesus being the Christ. The whole structure is essentially a rhetorical feint followed by a jab: “We’d hoped he was the Messiah, but even now it’s the third day since he was tried and crucified ... but the women among us amazed us!” By casting doubt using the first ἀλλά (Along with the intensifier γε), the content following the second ἀλλά is placed in even more prominence.
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ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
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Barry Hofstetter
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Re: Pls explain syntax of Luke 24:21

Post by Barry Hofstetter » May 5th, 2019, 9:35 pm

Jonathan Robie wrote:
May 4th, 2019, 1:26 pm
dimi wrote:
May 4th, 2019, 7:20 am
ἡμεῖς δὲ ἠλπίζομεν ὅτι αὐτός ἐστιν ὁ μέλλων λυτροῦσθαι τὸν Ἰσραήλ·
ἀλλά γε καὶ σὺν πᾶσιν τούτοις τρίτην ταύτην ἡμέραν ἄγει ἀφ’ οὗ ταῦτα ἐγένετο.
ἀλλὰ καὶ γυναῖκές τινες ἐξ ἡμῶν ἐξέστησαν ἡμᾶς,

ἀλλὰ καὶ γυναῖκές needs some explanation as well, in a way that makes good sense in Cleopas' narrative.
That bolded sentence isn't exactly easy, and it can be understood more than one way.

ἀλλά γε καὶ σὺν πᾶσιν τούτοις = but even on top of all this

τρίτην ταύτην ἡμέραν ἄγει ἀφ’ οὗ ταῦτα ἐγένετο is trickier.

ἄγει can be used in the sense of "spend time" or "occur" - if you take it as impersonal, then "it is three days since these things happened". Some take it as personal, referring to Jesus, something like "he is spending this day as the third since this happened."

τρίτην ταύτην ἡμέραν is the object of ἄγει:

ἀλλά γε καὶ
+ σὺν πᾶσιν τούτοις
o τρίτην ταύτην ἡμέραν
v ἄγει
+ ἀφ’ οὗ ταῦτα ἐγένετο.
I have always read ἄγει as both impersonal and intransitive here, with τρίτην ταύτην ἡμέραν as an accusative of time. I think supplying Ἱησοῦς as subject is contrary to the context. On ἀλλά, there is no doubt at all that both usages are adversative, with both providing a contrast to expectations. The ancient versions read it as ἀλλά.
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N.E. Barry Hofstetter
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Daniel Semler
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Re: Pls explain syntax of Luke 24:21

Post by Daniel Semler » May 6th, 2019, 9:07 am

FYI

I was trying to search Perseus for examples, these three words are in the stop word list to the old interface doesn't search for them. But I was just informed that you can get it to search via the new interface : https://scaife.perseus.org/search/?q=%2 ... orm&p=1&tg

This returns 20 hits.

Thx
D
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dimi
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Re: Pls explain syntax of Luke 24:21

Post by dimi » May 6th, 2019, 10:18 am

Concordance turns up 40+ cases of ἀλλὰ καί but only one of ἀλλά γε καί (in Lk 24:21 of course). All the ἀλλὰ καί cases introduce a more momentous clause over and beyond the previous clause. Thus,

Lk 12:7 — 5 sparrows vs number of hairs
Lk 16:21 — waiting for crumbs vs sores licked by dogs
Jn 5:18 — breaking sabbath vs making himself equal with God
Jn 13:9 — washing feet vs washing feet, hands and head
Acts 19:22 — disreputing trade vs disreputing temple of Artemis
Acts 21:13 — imprisoned vs killed
...

TGL (thank you Daniel!) turns up 20+ cases of ἀλλά γε καί just as Daniel said it would. Ima pick a few samples:

Aelian, On the Nature of Animals
Ἀμύνεσθαι δὲ τὸν προαδικήσαντα ὁ λέων οἶδε, καὶ εἰ μὴ παραχρῆμα αὐτῷ τιμωρήσειεν,
ἀλλά γε καὶ μετόπισθεν ἔχει κότον, ὄφρα τελέσσῃ, ἐν στήθεσσιν ἑοῖσιν.
The lion knows how to ward off one who injures him, and if he doesn't seem to want to take revenge immediately,
[the real deal is] he holds a grudge in his chest until he consummates it.
(and then Aelian goes on to tell a supposedly true story of a lion which waited a full year to exact revenge for an injury it suffered; I got some theological pleasure from reading this)
Athanasius, The Life of Holy Syncletica
(After warning about vexations to the spirit and mind)
Οὐ μόνον γὰρ τῇ τοῦ ἄρτου λιμαγχονίᾳ ἠρκεῖτο, ἀλλά γε καὶ τῇ τοῦ ὕδατος ὀλιγοδεΐᾳ.
Not only is food-fasting good for staving off these vexations, but also (especially) water-fasting. (my note: water-fasting is hard-core; don't try it!)

Quite a few more uses of ἀλλά γε καὶ in the same text express similar ideas.
Chrysostom, Commentary on Psalm 139
Ἀγαπᾶτε τοὺς ἐχθροὺς ὑμῶν, οὐ μόνον οὐκ ἀγαπᾷ τοὺς ἐχθροὺς, ἀλλά γε καὶ τοὺς εὐεργετοῦντας μισεῖ, καὶ τούτους φονεύει
Love your enemies, and not only that, but even be good to the hateful and murderous one.
It looks like an intensified οὐ μόνον... ἀλλά. Kind of the same as ἀλλὰ καί I guess.
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Daniel Semler
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Re: Pls explain syntax of Luke 24:21

Post by Daniel Semler » May 6th, 2019, 10:43 am

TGL (thank you Daniel!) turns up 20+ cases of ἀλλά γε καί just as Daniel said it would. Ima pick a few samples:
Strictly speaking, credit on this one goes to Stirling. He did that search before I did. Apologies for not crediting that initially.

Thx
D
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Stirling Bartholomew
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Re: Pls explain syntax of Luke 24:21

Post by Stirling Bartholomew » May 6th, 2019, 12:40 pm

Daniel Semler wrote:
May 6th, 2019, 10:43 am
TGL (thank you Daniel!) turns up 20+ cases of ἀλλά γε καί just as Daniel said it would. Ima pick a few samples:
Strictly speaking, credit on this one goes to Stirling. He did that search before I did. Apologies for not crediting that initially.

Thx
D
Daniel,

Not a problem. I looked at every sample since I couldn't deal with accents. I wasn't about post 119 samples. :)
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C. Stirling Bartholomew

dimi
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Re: Pls explain syntax of Luke 24:21

Post by dimi » May 6th, 2019, 2:22 pm

Btw I just checked Robertson, and on pg. 1185 (pdf pg. 1263) he discussed ἀλλά and ἄλλα in the same breath, calling it cliacteric (did a double take on this one) and playing down its contradictory aspect. In pg. 1148 (pdf pg. 1226) he mentioned the affirmative instead of adversative use of ἀλλά, highlighting its "ascensive force". He had a short explanation of "ascensive" in pg. 1181 (pdf pg. 1259). This fits well the meanings in the samples above.
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