Richard Rhodes on Definiteness

Stephen Carlson
Posts: 2900
Joined: May 11th, 2011, 10:51 am
Location: Melbourne
Contact:

Re: Richard Rhodes on Definiteness

Post by Stephen Carlson » February 22nd, 2020, 5:29 pm

Michael W Abernathy wrote:
February 22nd, 2020, 5:23 pm
I wasn't implying that the same rules applied to Greek. I meant Matthew may have copied his use from the Septuagint.
No, he's actually copying Mark. And there's nothing particularly Septuagintal about the usage. It's good Greek.
0 x


Stephen C. Carlson, Ph.D.
Melbourne, Australia

Peng Huiguo
Posts: 93
Joined: April 28th, 2019, 2:02 am

Re: Richard Rhodes on Definiteness

Post by Peng Huiguo » February 23rd, 2020, 2:37 am

Michael W Abernathy wrote:
February 22nd, 2020, 1:13 pm
using the dative where you might expect the genitive. Matthew does the same in Matthew 5:40 καὶ τῷ θέλοντί σοι κριθῆναι καὶ τὸν χιτῶνά σου λαβεῖν, ἄφες αὐτῷ καὶ τὸ ἱμάτιον
Where would be the expected genitive in that verse?
0 x

Michael W Abernathy
Posts: 16
Joined: June 11th, 2015, 3:43 pm

Re: Richard Rhodes on Definiteness

Post by Michael W Abernathy » February 23rd, 2020, 3:37 pm

My error. I must have miscopied when I made notes on Matthew and I didn't read the passage very carefully before posting.
0 x

Stephen Carlson
Posts: 2900
Joined: May 11th, 2011, 10:51 am
Location: Melbourne
Contact:

Re: Richard Rhodes on Definiteness

Post by Stephen Carlson » March 9th, 2020, 12:01 am

Can anyone tell me how the mountain in Matt 5:1 is identifiable?
Matt 5:1 wrote:Matt 5:1 ¶ Ἰδὼν δὲ τοὺς ὄχλους ἀνέβη εἰς τὸ ὄρος, καὶ καθίσαντος αὐτοῦ προσῆλθαν αὐτῷ οἱ μαθηταὶ αὐτοῦ.
0 x
Stephen C. Carlson, Ph.D.
Melbourne, Australia

RandallButh
Posts: 1048
Joined: May 13th, 2011, 4:01 am

Re: Richard Rhodes on Definiteness

Post by RandallButh » March 9th, 2020, 5:20 am

τὸ ὄρος:

This would come from general background, encyclopedic knowledge.
Previously, in chapter 4, Jesus took up residency in Kefar-NaHum, on the North/Northwest shore of Kinneret Lake (Sea of Kinneret in Hebrew). Jesus would walk along the shore preaching and he called some fishermen. We need to know that the good fishing areas were from the corner of the Lake at ῾Επτὰ-πηγαί (just east of Tel Kinneret in the NW corner of the Lake) along to the outlet of the Jordan at Bet-Saida ("house of the fisherman", about 2km below Geshur, the current tel labelled "Bet-Saida" for tourists. [El-Araj on the lakeshore and east-edge of the Jordan is currently being excavated and should be universally recognized as BetSaida within the coming decade.])
KefarNaHum is along that short shoreline, about equidistant from ῾Επτὰ Παγαί and Βεθσαιδα.

However, there is a general statement about preaching all over the Galilee in 4:23. Without a definite placement, the reader can only return to KefarNaHum and general knowledge of the area.
There is a nice hill, with a decent flat spot over a gentle slope to the sea that is over EptaPegai. (The hill right over KefarNaHum is out because Korazin is there. Likewise Geshur/Julius overlooks BetSaida, and further east we have the formidable cliffs of Gamla.) In Mt 5:1 Jesus "saw the crowds," presumably nearby, so The Hill becomes pretty obvious and there is now a church building there with nice gardens and teaching nooks with the hill being called in modern Hebrew Har-ha-Osher "mountain of beatitudes."

FWIW.

PS: none of the above contadicts a nice "new Sinai" typology for Matthew. No need to traipse up far away Mt. Hermon, etc.
0 x

Barry Hofstetter
Posts: 1772
Joined: May 6th, 2011, 1:48 pm

Re: Richard Rhodes on Definiteness

Post by Barry Hofstetter » March 9th, 2020, 4:20 pm

Stephen Carlson wrote:
March 9th, 2020, 12:01 am
Can anyone tell me how the mountain in Matt 5:1 is identifiable?
Matt 5:1 wrote:Matt 5:1 ¶ Ἰδὼν δὲ τοὺς ὄχλους ἀνέβη εἰς τὸ ὄρος, καὶ καθίσαντος αὐτοῦ προσῆλθαν αὐτῷ οἱ μαθηταὶ αὐτοῦ.
The article can be used of things that are generally known or implied from context.
0 x
N.E. Barry Hofstetter
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
Χαίρετε ἐν κυρίῳ πάντοτε· πάλιν ἐρῶ, χαίρετε

Stirling Bartholomew
Posts: 1045
Joined: August 9th, 2012, 4:19 pm

Re: Richard Rhodes on Definiteness

Post by Stirling Bartholomew » March 9th, 2020, 5:20 pm

Barry Hofstetter wrote:
March 9th, 2020, 4:20 pm
Stephen Carlson wrote:
March 9th, 2020, 12:01 am
Can anyone tell me how the mountain in Matt 5:1 is identifiable?
Matt 5:1 wrote:Matt 5:1 ¶ Ἰδὼν δὲ τοὺς ὄχλους ἀνέβη εἰς τὸ ὄρος, καὶ καθίσαντος αὐτοῦ προσῆλθαν αὐτῷ οἱ μαθηταὶ αὐτοῦ.
The article can be used of things that are generally known or implied from context.
Also, an author may choose to present τὸ ὄρος as known even if she has no reason to suspect the implied audience will be able to identify τὸ ὄρος from the active scenario.
1 x
C. Stirling Bartholomew

Stephen Carlson
Posts: 2900
Joined: May 11th, 2011, 10:51 am
Location: Melbourne
Contact:

Re: Richard Rhodes on Definiteness

Post by Stephen Carlson » March 9th, 2020, 6:00 pm

Barry Hofstetter wrote:
March 9th, 2020, 4:20 pm
Stephen Carlson wrote:
March 9th, 2020, 12:01 am
Can anyone tell me how the mountain in Matt 5:1 is identifiable?
Matt 5:1 wrote:Matt 5:1 ¶ Ἰδὼν δὲ τοὺς ὄχλους ἀνέβη εἰς τὸ ὄρος, καὶ καθίσαντος αὐτοῦ προσῆλθαν αὐτῷ οἱ μαθηταὶ αὐτοῦ.
The article can be used of things that are generally known or implied from context.
True, but there is no good reason to think it was, given the existence of several mountains in Galilee. In fact, the identity of the mountain remains obscure to the present day.
0 x
Stephen C. Carlson, Ph.D.
Melbourne, Australia

Stephen Carlson
Posts: 2900
Joined: May 11th, 2011, 10:51 am
Location: Melbourne
Contact:

Re: Richard Rhodes on Definiteness

Post by Stephen Carlson » March 9th, 2020, 6:01 pm

Stirling Bartholomew wrote:
March 9th, 2020, 5:20 pm
Barry Hofstetter wrote:
March 9th, 2020, 4:20 pm
Stephen Carlson wrote:
March 9th, 2020, 12:01 am
Can anyone tell me how the mountain in Matt 5:1 is identifiable?
The article can be used of things that are generally known or implied from context.
Also, an author may choose to present τὸ ὄρος as known even if she has no reason to suspect the implied audience will be able to identify τὸ ὄρος from the active scenario.
That's much better, but there has be a reason for this choice or else anything goes with the article.
0 x
Stephen C. Carlson, Ph.D.
Melbourne, Australia

Stephen Carlson
Posts: 2900
Joined: May 11th, 2011, 10:51 am
Location: Melbourne
Contact:

Re: Richard Rhodes on Definiteness

Post by Stephen Carlson » March 9th, 2020, 6:04 pm

RandallButh wrote:
March 9th, 2020, 5:20 am
τὸ ὄρος:

This would come from general background, encyclopedic knowledge.
This I think presumes quite a bit of specialized geographic knowledge around Capernaum on the part of the reader, all in a text that hardly localizes, if at all, the action in the immediate vicinity of Capernaum.
0 x
Stephen C. Carlson, Ph.D.
Melbourne, Australia

Post Reply

Return to “Pragmatics and Discourse”