[B-Greek] 1Jn 5:15 - EAN + OIDAMEN

Mark Lightman lightmanmark at yahoo.com
Mon Jun 30 14:53:17 EDT 2008


I agree with Carl that the distinction is weakening in Koine and therefore
not much should be made of it, because the same thing is happening in
English.  Most of us these days would say "If this is treason, let's make 
the most of it" not "If this be treason, let's make the most of it," not
because in the former sentence the treason is seen as less definite, 
but because the subjunctive is fading out in English, and is becoming
optional.
 
I would be curious though to know about Modern Greek.  Has the subjunctive
in these conditions been completely replaced by the indicative, and is
EAN no longer used at all?  Could a modern Greek still use EAN plus
subjunctive if he wanted to sound a little stuffy? 
 
 
Mark L. 

--- On Mon, 6/30/08, Carl Conrad <cwconrad2 at mac.com> wrote:

From: Carl Conrad <cwconrad2 at mac.com>
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] 1Jn 5:15 - EAN + OIDAMEN
To: mitchlarramore at yahoo.com
Cc: "'B-Greek B-Greek'" <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Date: Monday, June 30, 2008, 9:05 AM

On Jun 30, 2008, at 10:48 AM, Mitch Larramore wrote:

> After reading this BDAG entry, I wondered: isn't this saying we  
> don't know what this usage means? I'm not assuming a clear  
> distinction with every use, but I find this comment in BDAG  
> worrisome. Are we suppose to stop there or are we suppose to keep  
> searching for a possible variant with this usage?

Others may think differently about this, but I don't think there's  
anything involved here other than a Koine weakening of a distinction  
that was sharp(er) in the older language. We really ought to take  
seriously the proposition that Koine Greek is a language in flux; I  
know I've said this before, but perhaps it bears repeating: the notion  
that we should understand Koine Greek usage synchronically can be  
valid ONLY if we concede that EAN, although ordinarily used with a  
subjunctive, nevertheless quite frequently is used with an indicative.

>
> --- On Mon, 6/30/08, Carl Conrad <cwconrad2 at mac.com> wrote:
>
>> From: Carl Conrad <cwconrad2 at mac.com>
>> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] 1Jn 5:15 - EAN + OIDAMEN
>> To: "Vasile Stancu" <stancu at mail.dnttm.ro>
>> Cc: "'B-Greek B-Greek'"
<b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
>> Date: Monday, June 30, 2008, 3:46 AM
>> On Jun 29, 2008, at 9:46 PM, Vasile Stancu wrote:
>>
>>> ἐὰν οἴδαμεν EAN OIDAMEN (1Jn 5:15)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I would have expected that EAN be followed by a
>> Subjunctive form.
>>> How to explain that EAN is used here in conjunction
>> with a Present/
>>> Perfect form, i.e. OIDAMEN?
>>
>> See BDAG s.v. EAN, 1.b. for use with indicative, β for use
>> with the
>> present tense, including OIDAMEN (which is a present in
>> usage). One
>> gets the impression that the distinction between EAN and EI
>> became
>> fuzzy in some Koine usage.
>>
>> Carl W. Conrad
>> Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
>>
>>
>>
>> ---
>> B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek
>> B-Greek mailing list
>> B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
>
>
>


Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)



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