From: Carl W. Conrad (cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu)
Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 - 08:21:41 EST
<x-flowed>At 11:42 PM +1100 12/9/98, Ward Powers wrote:
> At 08:11 98/12/08 -0600, you wrote:
>>At 8:00 AM -0500 12/8/98, Paul F. Evans wrote:
>>> Carl,
>>>
>>> You wrote:
>>>
>>>>but you shouldn't ever see hO AGAQOS hO ANHR.
>>>
>>>
>>> I am not in my office right now so I can't check, but I am almost certain,
>>> other than the substitution of ANQRWPOS, that Machen actually gives this
>>> exact
>>> construction as an example for an attributive set up. I have always been
>>> confused when I read the GNT when I come across anarthrous nouns and
>>> articular adjectives trying figure out how to understand them. As basic as
>>> it is, maybe we (I am too embraced by my ignorance to say "I") could use an
>>> expert summary of the rules, if such a "summary" is possible! This would
>>> explain why I do not find many constructions like the one I learned from.
>>> Of course, I may have nodded off in this class and those strange
>>> double-visions that dance in your head after a heavy lunch may have
>>> multiplied the definite articles in the examples I was studying!
>>
>>I've just had a look at Machen's account of attributive and predicate
>>positions of the article (pp. 35-37, ##68-74), and I have to say that
>>I think it's one of the better-written sections of a
>>less-than-remarkable beginning NT Greek grammar. Here's what he has
>>in ##72:
>>
>>"The matter can be summarized as follows:
>>
>>Attributive Position /hO AGAQOS LOGOS \ = the good word
>>of the Adjective \hO LOGOS hO AGAQOS/
>>
>>Predicate Position /hO LOGOS AGAQOS \ = the word is good
>>of the Adjective \AGAQOS hO LOGOS /
>>
>>He then adds very sensible notes:
>>"#73. The student should fix this distinction in his mind by
>>thoughtful reading aloud of the above and similar phrases, until
>>AGAQOS hO LOGOS, for example, comes to mean to him, even without
>>conscious translation, 'good (is) the word, and comes to be
>>dissociated entirely from the idea 'the good word.' If this advice be
>>heeded, a solid foundation will have been laid for the mastery of a
>>large part of Greek syntax.
>>"#74. It should be observed that the distinction between the
>>attributive and the predicate position of the adjective can be made
>>in Greek only when the noun has the article. AGAQOS LOGOS or LOGOS
>>AGAQOS (the noun here not having the article) may mean either 'a good
>>word' (attributive) or 'a word is good' (predicate)."
>>
>>I could go check BDF and other beginning NT Greek textbooks which in
>>many respects are far superior to Machen, but I doubt if I could find
>>a clearer and more precise statement on this item of standard ancient
>>Greek grammar, for that matter an item of grammar that bears equally
>>upon classical Attic and upon Hellenistic Koine Greek.
> Dear Carl,
>
> This is an off-list response. I was interested in your comments about
> Machen. For myself, in the practical business of teaching, I have found the
> kind of very condensed approach which Machen takes is much too compact for
> most students to easily understand. Hence in my "Learning To Read the GNT"
> I cover the topic in more detail, giving GNT examples of each kind of
> situation, and spelling out the distinction between the attributive and
> predicative uses.
>
> If you have the necessary few minutes to spare to look at it, I would be
> most interested in your comment on pages 92 to 94 of my grammar.
Thanks for the note, Ward. Yes, I will check your book. I really
dislike Machen, and I only referred to it because Paul said it was
what he'd learned out of and didn't remember learning the business
about attributive and predicate positions. At least Machen realizes
how important the matter is, and what he offers is a much clearer
statement than one finds in some of the older classical Attic primers.
More after I look at your book, which is at home--while I have only
just arrived in my office for the day.
Regards, Carl
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics/Washington University
One Brookings Drive/St. Louis, MO, USA 63130/(314) 935-4018
Home: 7222 Colgate Ave./St. Louis, MO 63130/(314) 726-5649
cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu OR cconrad@yancey.main.nc.us
WWW: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/
</x-flowed>
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.4 : Sat Apr 20 2002 - 15:40:10 EDT