From: Bill Ross (wross@farmerstel.com)
Date: Mon Apr 26 1999 - 11:21:50 EDT
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<DIV><SPAN class=190154214-26041999></SPAN>{<SPAN class=190154214-26041999><FONT 
color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><FONT size=3><FONT color=#000000 
face="Times New Roman">Carl</FONT></FONT> }</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV>On the other hand, in the unquestionably authentic letters of Paul I've 
found several good instances of the periphrastic perfect or pluperfect; here are 
a few of them:<BR><BR><U>Rom</U> 13:1, where Paul speaks of authorities to which 
one must be subject. OU GAR ESTIN EXOUSIA EI MH hUPO QEOU, and those that do 
exist (hAI DE OUSAI), he says, hUPO QEOU TETAGMENAI EISIN. This is a 
periphrastic third-plural perfect passive.<SPAN class=190154214-26041999><FONT 
color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2> </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=190154214-26041999></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
class=190154214-26041999>{Bill}</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
class=190154214-26041999>Ironically, this is also an example of ESTIN as a 
"stand-alone" verb! This is exactly how George wants to read this 
construction:</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
class=190154214-26041999></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=190154214-26041999>"Not 
ARE authorities except by God, and those that do exist, by God having been 
established ARE." (or, "Are, having been established by 
God").</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
class=190154214-26041999></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=190154214-26041999>This 
would parallel George's reading: "In Grace you ARE, having been saved by 
faith."</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=190154214-26041999></SPAN><SPAN class=190154214-26041999><FONT 
color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=190154214-26041999><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2>The 
other examples do prove the normalcy of the form.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=190154214-26041999><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial 
size=2> </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=190154214-26041999><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial 
size=2>{Bill}</FONT> </SPAN><BR>>As to George's assertion that ESTE is a 
stand alone verb, in the sense of<SPAN class=190154214-26041999><FONT 
color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2>  </FONT></SPAN>"you exist," that is how I 
first read it, since the context has Paul showing<BR>in this passage that the 
Church is God's new creation:<BR>><BR>>Eph 2:<BR>>10 For we are his 
workmanship, **created** in Christ Jesus unto good works,<SPAN 
class=190154214-26041999><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2>  
</FONT></SPAN>which God hath before ordained that we should walk in 
them.<BR><SPAN class=190154214-26041999><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial 
size=2> </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=190154214-26041999>{Carl} </SPAN><BR>In Eph 2:10 AUTOU GAR 
ESMEN POIHMA. ESMEN is hardly a "stand-alone" verb, it takes a predicate 
nominative, namely POIHMA AUTOU.<SPAN class=190154214-26041999><FONT 
color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2> </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=190154214-26041999></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=190154214-26041999><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial 
size=2>{Bill}</FONT> </SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=190154214-26041999></SPAN><FONT size=2><FONT 
color=#0000ff><FONT face=Arial><SPAN class=190154214-26041999> I was 
not citing 2:10 to show ESMEN as a "stand-alone" verb, but to show that the 
context of the passage was that the Church was a miracle by God, 
not an accomplishment of men.  The word I was calling attention 
to was KTISQENTES.</SPAN><BR><SPAN 
class=190154214-26041999> </SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT face=Arial><SPAN 
class=190154214-26041999>{Carl} </SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT><BR>I hope that 
I have shown that. <FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
class=190154214-26041999> </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
class=190154214-26041999> </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=190154214-26041999><FONT 
color=#000000 face="Times New Roman" size=3>{Bill}</FONT></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=190154214-26041999>Thank you for your ever diligent, patient 
instruction. I don't believe that you have proven that ESTE must of necessity be 
linked to SESWiSMENOI, since it can stand alone, and you have proved that ESTE 
can serve as a "stand-alone" verb as George holds. Further, it does appear less 
frequent to put ESTE before the verb than after. Hence, I don't see how the 
grammar, which supports both readings, can preclude either one.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=190154214-26041999></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=190154214-26041999>And both are true:</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=190154214-26041999></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=190154214-26041999>"By/In grace you have been saved through 
faith"</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=190154214-26041999></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=190154214-26041999>and</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=190154214-26041999></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=190154214-26041999>"By/In grace you are, having been saved 
through faith."</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=190154214-26041999></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=190154214-26041999>Did I 
miss anything that makes one conclusively incorrect??</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
class=190154214-26041999></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=190154214-26041999>By the 
way, one additional reason that I prefer the second reading is that it does not 
have to be read as a parenthesis, and it contributes to the thrust of the 
passage. I find the disjointed approach unnerving. </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
class=190154214-26041999></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=190154214-26041999>Bill 
Ross</SPAN></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>
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