[b-greek] re: Modern Greek, ... a new direction-Peterson

From: Trevor Peterson (spedrson@netzero.net)
Date: Tue Dec 19 2000 - 13:24:35 EST


Randall wrote:

> They themselves may not be aware that they are not composi=
> ng
> in the old language but are reading from fixed texts. They can't say UMEI=
> S
> as a single word answer to 'us or you?'. Koine could.

But apparently they can read it and know what they're reading. That was
most of my point. Just as a Modern English speaker can read "wherefore
art thou?" and understand it (yet not understand it quite well enough to
construct grammatically appropriate sentences using "thee"s and "thou"s, I
presume a Modern Greek speaker can read the old grammar at least in a
similar fashion, pronouncing it with his own modern accent, perhaps not
understanding all its quirks fully, but still able to make sense of it.
And of course, the slightly more studious reader could learn the
differences from his own grammar without too much difficulty.
>
[snipped]
>
> What does 'facility' mean? Are there fluent Erasmian speakers? =

I guess I was thinking in terms of being able to understand and use
Erasmian pronunciation for the sake of scholarly interaction. I don't
know of any fluent speakers either.
>
> So why use Erasmian? It's backwards. They [Erasmians] took
> "modern/lateKoine" fi/theta/chi but mixed them with Attic/earlyKoine
> beta/delta/gamma. Then they bring EI and HTA close together or the same,
> when EI was joined with I in Koine. They join OU with U. And if Luke or
> Paul would not have HEARD the difference between ECWMEN and ECOMEN we can=
>
> feel their ambiguity and their less than felicitous wording. =

Agreed. And I'm not trying to advocate the Erasmian system for its own
sake--only as a tool for interaction with others. Perhaps the
reconstructed early CE Koine approach is similar enough that an Erasmian
devotee could understand snippets, but it's still probably useful, if one
can keep so many pronunciation systems in one's head, to maintain enough
familiarity to move back and forth depending on the setting.
>
> [The most common reason given is that academics use Erasmian so it is
> necessary for conferences and such. BUT Erasmian users at a conference
> can't understand a text when it is read, anyway, at least not when the te=
> xt
> is over a handful of words . Everyone relies on a written text.]

Granted. But the use to which it is often put--to throw out a word or
phrase here and there--still requires enough commonality for the
participants to understand one another.
>
[snipped]
>
> We already have a Living Biblical Hebrew ulpan here in the summer. Howeve=
> r,
> we don't mix any modern into it nor do we invent new words since the
> language has already developed its own choices. Students interested in
> going on in Hebrew find that they can move into modern Hebrew "seemlessly=
> "
> and without the "invisible wall" I mentioned in the last email.

I imagine they probably could. The "wall" is undoubtedly a product more
of moving from a reading-only language to a living language environment
than of moving between Biblical Hebrew and Modern. I wasn't aware that
such a program existed, but it's nice to know that it does.
>
> > Languages like Hebrew, Greek, and Syriac, where
> >modern equivalents do exist, would be a good starting point. =
>
>
> Personally, I think not for Syriac, which is like Greek. My landlord spea=
> ks
> an aramaic dialect (Zacho). =
>
> He can't understand the old targum. =

With the way the dialects of Aramaic have gone, I'm not surprised. But my
point was simply that something like Syriac would provide a channel back
into living Aramaic. Granted, it would take significant adaptation, but
it would provide a living starting point. Probably the way to do it would
be to start with Syriac in its own right, working toward a living language
environment specifically for early Syriac. Then, that could be used as a
jumping-off point for Targum Aramaic, etc. It's certainly nowhere near
the smooth flow you have with Hebrew, but I would think it has to be an
advantage over something like Akkadian.
>
[snipped]
>
> So when do you arrive in Jerusalem?

In a perfect world, I'd already be there. Alas, Paul was right about the
concerns of a married person . . .

Trevor Peterson
CUA/Semitics

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