[b-greek] Re: Aorist never codes an open situation? - To Kimmo

From: Kimmo Huovila (kimmo@kaamas.kielikone.fi)
Date: Thu Dec 21 2000 - 02:08:07 EST


Mark Wilson wrote:
>
> Kimmo:
>
> 1 Peter 1:24
>
> EXHRANQH hO CORTOS KAI TO ANQOS EXEPESEN
>
> (The grass withers and the flower falls away)
>
> Here, I would say that "countable and bounded" are not semantically related
> to THIS use of the Aorist.
>
> You responded to this by saying:
>
> -------
> >Why not? The grass is (in a timeless context) described as
> >'reaching/having reached the
> >conclusion of becoming withered', not just 'engaging in the process of
> >withering'. Similarly flowers will fall away, not just engage in the
> >process of falling away.
> ------
>
> If this views the grass as "having reachED the conclusion..." then are you
> saying that the Aorist inherently describes a PAST EVENT? This of course is
> the traditional understanding, I think. [Some I think attribute the "past
> sense" to the PERFECTIVE Aspect, which would require the event to be
> understood as complete, and therefore over (past?)]
A few dstinctions are in order. Aspect, relative tense and absolute
tense are different concepts, but they are related. Perfective aspect
could be seen, like you say, past from some vantage point. But remember,
anything after which there is future could be as well. Typically with
durative expressions, the point of view determines the aspect, and thus
it approaches in some uses relative tense. Relative tense codes the
event temporally relative to a point, which need not be the deictic
center. This distinguishes it from the absolute tense, which requires
the point to be the now moment (deictic center). Greek aorist codes
aspect over relative or absolute tense. But the concepts are often so
related that I posit a secondary temporal meaning to the aorist
indicative (absolute tense).
>
> The reason I ask is because as I read the non-past referring Aorists by
> Porter, I can understand them as "past" in relation to some deictic event.
> And even in the above Aorist, which Wallace identifies as a "Gnomic" Aorist,
> I can see that the statement can be conceived as occurring at any time, but
> when it is a "fulfilled statement," the event must be past. Or,....
But relative to the deictic center or any other established point of
reference in the discourse it may be anything. For example QELW TOUTO
POIHSAI would typically be future.
>
> In fact, if I may be so bold, I also see a sense in which the Aorist, when
> used of "future" time, is understood as true BASED ON "past" fact or
> occurrence.

I doubt this is the way the KOINH Greeks felt about it. I think the
aspect only wins over temporal meaning in these cases.
>
> Using the above example, we know that grass withers because that is
> HISTORICALLY the case. We know that the scribes and P. sit (aorist) on
> Moses' seat because HISTORY tells us that.
>
> And, looking at the Aorists that Wallace calls "Futuristic," I think I could
> argue something similar.

What do you do with some future referring aorists in conditional
sentence apodoses? Sorry, I cannot give you references, since I do not
even have a Greek NT while writing this, but I guess standard grammars
might help. Or Fanning's study. I might have given some references also
in my study, but I do not remember.
>
> For examples:
>
> When (reference time) you pray, believe that you have already received (God
> grants this before you actually kneel down)
>
> Now (reference time), the Son of Man is glorified (his final days on earth
> have arrived, this statement looks back at his ministry from the standpoint
> of "NOW")
>
> these he also glorified (as Wallace comments, its as good as done)
>
> whenever he is about to sound [the trumpet], then the mystery of God is
> finished (that is, WHEN the trumpet sounds, that lets you know that the
> mystery of God has run its course and is NOW over (past))
>
> Thank you for taking the time to interact in this discussion.
>
> Mark Wilson
>

Kimmo Huovila

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