[b-greek] Re: roast your own plus questions on 'simple vocab', Carl

From: Randall Buth (ButhFam@compuserve.com)
Date: Thu Dec 28 2000 - 12:25:16 EST


TW KARLW KAI ALLOIS

First, thank you Carl for first responses.
And one thing leads to another.

I don't have access to TLG, and access to "Lampe" or Preisegke requires a
trip across town, so interaction is highly appreciated. I do have
Rengstorf, Concordance to Josephus, to which I've now made recourse on some
questions below.

>>CAIRETE, I would like feedback on choosing well-formed Greek
>>for beginning students of Koine.
...
>>2.
>>'the cup of water' (referring to a cup of water currently full)
>> TO POTHRION TOU UDATOS
>>(the second article seems necessary but I have no exact examples)
>
>This (the second article) really seems strange to me; perhaps I'm thinking
>too formally, but POTHRION hUDATOS PLHRES seems more suitable to me.

Yes, agreed for an indefinite cup.
However, I need the phrase with the article.
So do I put the article with both (on the analogy of 'the cup of the
blessing') or perhaps avoid the problem and just say TO UDATOS POTHRION ?

So what would the the mother say to her son? -- :
e.g. "Do you see EKEINO TO POTHRION TOU UDATOS/OINOU/GALACTOS?
It better be empty in one minute or no honey and apples for you !"

Or what?

>3.
>>'she is tired' AUTH EKLUOMENH ESTIN
>>(a bit strong, 'giving out'/'fainting'/=exhausted but occurs in NT)
>
>I find this questionable; NT instances seem to show the present ptc. as
>middle (Gal 6:9, Heb 12:3). Wouldn't you want a perfect ptc., EKLELUMENH?

Thank you. I also like the perfect, but was afraid of implying total
dissipation and exhaustion.
I've checked some Josephus references and found two perfect participles.
well, they seem pretty tired !

PROS TOUS PONOUS HDH DIA THN TRUFHN EKLELUMENOI Ant 5.134
(already exhausted at the work on account of soft-living...)
[I don't have a text to check this for context of Ant. 5.134 but I do have
the next one]

OI RWMAIOI PANTAS EKTEINAN GUMNOUS TE ONTAS KAI TA FRONHMATA EKLELUMENOUS
Ant 17.263
(the Romans killed all of them, who were naked and beyond sense ['exhausted
of mind'])

I am planning to use this word with a woman who stomps out a winepress
and then sits down when she gets 'tired'. EKLELUMENH ?

If there are no objections I may start using this word
when i'm
eklelumenos
yet still with enough energy to talk to myself in Greek.

>4.
>>kids (10-15years old) O PAIS, H PAIS and NEANISKOS, KORASION
>
>Better get Christopher Hutson's response on this; while the others might
>do, I have the sense that NEANISKOS may well refer to an older fellow
(like
>Latin ADULESCENS, which might well refer to a 30-year old).

Yo'! , Christopher! . . .
Mostly I keep NEANISKOI smiling and trying to be attractive to grown-up
KORASIA.
But how young can I go on the NEANISKOI?

>>5.
>>'full, satisfied' after eating= EMPEPLHSTAI, EMPEPLHSMENOI EISIN
>>(a close call, but perfect [KE]CORTASMENOS doesn't occur in NT)
>
>What of KORENNUMI, used in 1 Cor 4:8 (KEKORESMENOI) metaphorically of the
>Corinthians who have "sated themselves" upon the lore of the gospel
>(although Paul suggests they really haven't been weaned yet)

Good word, too. KORENNUSQAI I overlooked it.

Josephus, again, with a 'perfect' example
WSPER EN ESCATOIS THS ASWTOU TRAPEZHS KEKORESMENOS BJ 4.652
(so finally, having pigged-out on the unrestrained buffet ...) (c'est a
dire=il a vachement bouffe ')

However, in trying to find the most 'common' word that a kid might use when
finished with dinner,
I think EMPLHSQHNAI will be best for didactic Koine purposes since it is c.
60 xx in the LXX against zero for
KORESQHNAI.
Idiosyncratically, the LXX only seems to use the aorist passive and future
passive for these "well-fed"
verses but that is a different problem tied to translation style.

>>6. 'is riding an animal' ELAUVEI IPPON/ONON//arma/k.t.l.
>>(literally 'drives' an animal, chosen for cars in modern)
>
>I've seen this in earlier Greek with hARMA but is it really used in what
>you've read with an animal that is mounted and ridden? I guess the
>fundamental sense is "push forward." It seems more commonly used of
>marching or of being driven by winds or some force.

Agreed. yet ...

>>7.
>>'seated on an animal' EPIBEBH[K]WS EPI IPPON/k.t.l.
>>(this EPIBAINEIN is close to 'riding'
>>but would seem to be used in conjunction with a verb of movement)
>>
>... Yes, I guess it's close to "riding," although really it
>means "mounted upon." (Mt 21:5)

Correct. Agreed.

So if you were describing a picture of
"a boy is riding a horse" (present tense)

would you be happier with

O PAIS ERCETAI EPIBEBHKWS EPI IPPON
(which would parallel some LXX translations of ba roxev 'came riding')

or

O PAIS ELAUNEI IPPON or ?

(on ELAUNEIN see now
Odyssey 5.371 KELHQ' WS IPPON ELAUNWN 'as though riding a horse')

for 1st century I turned to Josephus and find more than one option:
BJ 3.487 TON IPPON HLAUNEN EIS TOUS POLEMIOUS ("riding his horse", or
more emphatic "driving, spurring on"?)
BJ 3.498 EPI TON IPPON ANAPHDA ... ... PROS THN LIMNHN DI' HS ELASAS (='he
jumps on his horse ...
... to the lake through which he rode')
BJ 5.62 HLAUNEN UPER TOUS EREIPOMENOUS TON IPPON ('he was riding/driving
the horse over the slain')

Again, the question is what do we think someone would have said about a kid
riding horseback in the first century?
I'm leaning to ELAUVEI IPPON for its simplicity over ERCETAI EPIBEBHKWS
EPI IPPON

Discovering the correct 'register' or language level for any one concept
for the first century is quite an undertaking and we really don't have all
of the tools at hand that people might expect. Most things are 'inside
out', since people only have to read what was written.

EUCARISTW UMIN
ERRWSQE
 
Randall Buth
Jerusalem

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