[b-greek] Re: BDAG at Rv 3:14 - Christ was the first creation now probable

From: GregStffrd@aol.com
Date: Tue Jan 23 2001 - 23:46:30 EST


In a message dated 01/23/2001 3:38:17 PM Pacific Standard Time,
musicke@ozemail.com.au writes:

<< So Christ is seen as the Creator, not a creation. >>


Dear David:

My post specifically detailed where and why these verses do not refer to
Christ as the creator. Indeed, I thought I showed that the grammar actually
makes this concept impossible in view of the verbs used. Could you please
comment on the grammatical points that I mentioned, and then explain how,
grammatically, you can maintain that Christ is the creator in either John 1:3
or, more specifically, Col. 1:15-18?

If you wish to suggest that the use of "all things" removes Christ from the
category of created beings, that is one thing, but it does not then mean that
he is the creator. He can be an eternal being yet not the creator, and, in
fact, the grammar of the verses would demand such a conclusion *if* you are
in fact going to maintain that Christ is eternal, since it is clear that
someone other than Christ created "in/through him." This other Being is the
creator and Christ is the one "in/through whom" He created.
 
However, "all things" does not always mean each and every single instance of
the kind is in view (either as a whole or as individual parts). Indeed, it
*frequently* does not mean this in biblical Greek. Let me supply a few
relevant and grammatically parallel examples:

Sirach 1:4 says, PROTERA PANTWN EKTISTAI SOFIA. Please note that the same
passive verb is used here, as in Col. 1:16, and, again, it clearly shows that
someone else did the creating, not Wisdom. Yet, more importantly for this
discussion, Wisdom is shown to have been created "before all things." How can
that be if Wisdom is also a creation? Because of the flexibility of PAS in
Greek.

Sirach 49:16, says hUPER PAN ZWON EN THi KTISEI ADAM. But was not Adam also
himself a "living thing in the creation"? Here he is dignified above it but
nonetheless a part of it, too.

Now let's take a look at a biblical example. Psalm 8:6 in the LXX says that
God put "all things" (PANTA) under man's feet. But surely this is
context-specific to all PHYSICAL things, not the heavenly things, too,
namely, the angels.

Other examples can be supplied upon request, but do you see why the point you
are making about "all things" is subject to additional, legitimate
interpretations?

 
 
<< I can never see the relevance of the verse about wisdom in Proverbs, or why
 it featured so much in discussion about Christ. Off the top of my head, I
 can't think of anything messianic in Proverbs. >>


Please see my post to Iver. There is much evidence in support of the view
that Christ is the Wisdom of Prov 8:22ff., and that this portion of Proverbs
is different from the other parts of this book which speak of the attribute
of wisdom, not the preexistent person.

 
<< When I dismissed the meaning "ruler of God's creation" in Rev 3:14, I had
 forgotten Rev 1:5, I am ashamed to say, which does link closely with Rev
 3:14. I now see why the translation "ruler" is found in some versions.
 [Though of course in 1:5 it is ARCWN and in 3:14 it is ARCH]
>>


Precisely, which argues against the meaning of "ruler" for ARCH in 3:14.
Also, as has been pointed out, when ARCH is used with the meaning of "ruler"
in the NT it is always accompanied by other words denoting power and/or
authority. Of course, I am not suggesting that 3:14 could not be an
exception, but I think the burden quite clearly rests with those advocating
such a view, to show its potential.

Best regards,

Greg Stafford

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