[b-greek] Rev3:14

From: virgil newkirk (virgilsalvage1@email.msn.com)
Date: Thu Jan 25 2001 - 06:02:12 EST


To all....

      The part of the text that has been the focus..hH ARCH THS KTISEWS TOU
QEOU...

      On Jan 22..at 12:21 Iver Larsen said in part, " I would note that the
actual "sense" of a word is dependent on the context. The context "chooses"
the sense." The primary and secondary meanings do not choose which sense
applies, the context does. <snip>

     The context will be a tremendous help.. May I suggest first of all,
before we look at the context...that we de-qualify it concerning something?
That is, Rev 3:14-22 is not about the subject of creation...fair enough? It
appears to be absolutely about and concerning The Relationship between the
One who is the Amen...the Faithful and True Witness...The ARCH.....and His
called out ones in Laodicea...and a number of issues to be clearly and
definitely dealt with. It is about relationship between these and this One.
Again..I would sincerely ask...fair enough? OK...

    First there is the church, then some writing to the church and then...."
a nominative " here is the subject at hand..THE WITNESS...the one who knows.
What is this witness like....The Amen..." sure...firm...count on him" The
True..."genuine...real " The Faithful..." content Again, allow me to
suggest context is speaking of one to relate to...We can feel confident in
this one.

   Next "nominative" ...hH ARCH. This is the above mentioned extrapolated.
He is the one who is not just outwardly the Ruler...He is Ruling
itself...content...dominion..ability over, so as to be able to rule and
carry out. " Relationship " We need to look to the Genitive now to find out
the qualities...the characteristics of what this ruling is. I think by now
the context has helped us determine which gloss is the most likely. This is
not something related to the beginning...but to the now..ruling..governing
righteously... But the rest of what is being said here is best explained by
the principle of the Genitive case in the Greek.

    Iver on Jan 24..at 9:58 speaking to grammatical categories concerning
the genitive case said,


   " There is a long tradition in Greek grammar to invent numerous
descriptive names
for such associations. This is dangerous, because many people then wrongly
assume that we somehow have a host of different genitives with each their
own
meaning. The nature of the association is not part of the genitive itself.
Some
of the names are helpful as a shorthand notation for a relationship or
association that one has deduced from the words linked together, but not
more
than that.

     Please bear with me before we look at the Genitive THS KTISEWS TOU
QEOU.... to listen to someone else from the past on this list say....I think
the numerous categories laid out for the adnominal genitive in Greek
grammars ( as opposed to partitive and ablatival functions) are all
interpretive categories developed by translators. The adnominal genitive
itself is simply a structual case, indicating that the substantive in the
genitive is dependent upon another nearby substantive; I don't think " that
any semantic function is inherent at all " in the construction, but that the
sematic relationship of the two substantives must be grasped or determined
from context, " if it is to be grasped at all." While semantic categories in
a grammar may aid an interpreter, I think it is a fundamental mistake to
suppose that they are inherent in the Greek. This also applies in particular
to " subjective" genitives and "objective" genitives, which don't
constitute defined categories in the Greek at all. < Snip>

    One more brief comment please...thanks for your forbearance...The
Genitive describes what the substantive is characterized by and what it's "
genre " is.

    Now..let the Greek genitive of THS KTISEWS TOU QEOU...do its qualifying.
The Ruling that that Lord is here in the relationship with....THS
KTISEWS...that which is characterized as having been
founded..constituted...made...brought to be..( thats us) we are His
creation, his bringing about to be in Christ...how do we know that...Eph
2:10b " created EN Christ Jesus "

    The second qualifying Greek genitive....this will tell us what kind of
creating..founding has been done...TOU QEOU kind. This is the relationship
in Chap. 3...We are those by our standing and relationship with Christ that
we are the Sons of God...not just friends...not just in relationship...but
Sons...He is The ARCH THS KTISEWS TOU QEOU

     He is in ruling relationship with the ones who are characterized by
what they are EN HIM...THS KTISEWS

     This is not a 6 word parenthesis to talk about some doctrinal
category.....the Greek here in context and grammar is describing
relationship.....genre....allow me one reference to affirm this and then I'm
done....John 20:17b...And go to my " brothers ", and tell them, I am
ascending unto my Father...and "YOUR" Father....and to my God...and "YOUR"
God. "THS KTISEWS TOU QEOU"

    He is the Ruling in relationship with ones who are characterized by
having experienced the creating, the founding of God that is characterized
by and includes God Himself. What an amazing principle and rich describer is
the Genitive Case. Marvelous!

    Virgil Newkirk
    Salt Lake City, Utah



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