[b-greek] Re: John 5:18b (revised)

From: Richard Allan Stauch (RStauch@worldnet.att.net)
Date: Tue Jul 03 2001 - 23:40:26 EDT


-----Original Message-----
From: Richard Ghilardi [mailto:qodeshlayhvh@juno.com]
Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2001 3:59 AM

>Dear Richard S. and b-greekers,
>I fear that we are about to stray into the area of theology, so I will
>give you my reply off-list.

Dear Richard G. and all on b-greek,

I tend to agree, in general, since admittedly the whole question arose out
of a theological contention (in another venue). I therefore wished in my
initial post (on b-greek) to restrict my inquiry to the grammatical form,
and all it may imply. I continue to hope for that. Nevertheless, I am sorry
if I seem to have gotten too far towards the out-of-bounds dimension of
interpretation, or application, or caused anyone else to. It seems to me
that context is important, even in translation, since so many words in Greek
depend upon it.

>Here is what John could have written if he had wanted to disavow the
>Jews' statements as his own true beliefs:
>DIA TOUTO OUN MALLON EZHTOUN AUTON hOI IOUDAIOI APOKTEINAI,
><< hWS OU MONON LUONTA TO SABBATON, ALLA KAI PATERA IDION LEGONTA TON
>QEON ISON hEAUTON POIWN TWi QEWi.>>
>according to Smyth 2086
>OR
>... <<hOTI OU MONON LUOI TO SABBATON, ALLA KAI PATERA IDION LEGOI TON
>QEON ISON hEAUTON POIWN TWi QEWi.>>
>according to Smyth 2242 and 2622
[And]
>Apparently the
>optative is always used in implied O. O. when the tense of the verb in
>the main clause is secondary, as it is here.

Well, perhaps we could follow up with an examination of the optative use,

such as you suggest. Where will we find an example of such a use in any of
the Galilean NT writers? I have searched (such as I may), and cannot find
even one among them (Paul and Luke, yes; John, Mark, Peter, James, and Jude,
no). It even appears that John may have never used an optative mode verb in
his life. (There is one appearance at JnG 13:24b, where EIH appears to be
fairly questionable.) One would think, in Revelation, he might be able to
find one use for the mood farthest removed from reality.

>I cannot reply in full to your post at this
>time anyway. Perhaps I can after a full day's work.

I really do appreciate it. I just got off work, myself.

>>I copy the example Smyth gives from 2615...
>Section 2615 is irrelevant precisely because you have confused causal
>hOTI with the conjunction hOTI that introduces oratio obliqua. The hOTI
>of Jn 5:18 is CAUSAL hOTI. The second rewriting of Jn 5:18 above contains
>IMPLIED indirect discourse. But the hOTI is still causal.

I will simply take your word for it, since you are so clear, and Smyth only
seems to be saying that "oratio obliqua" can be introduced by hOTI with the
indicative. He is obviously slightly defective in this, since he does not
attempt to define the use of hOTI, as depicted in section 2615, as causal or
merely as the conjunction. It simply comes under the major heading (which I
paste here): "PART IV: SYNTAX: DEPENDENT SUBSTANTIVE CLAUSES (2574-2635):
SIMPLE SENTENCES IN INDIRECT DISCOURSE." Why, it is as if it didn't make any
difference to him. Yet, I must say that the form of the example I pasted
before is precisely the form under discussion, so I cannot see the reason
for your very strong objection.

But, let us acknowledge for posterity that we do not have the level of
John's knowledge of the logical arts or Greek philosophy. He may indeed have
intended to use the "a minore ad majorem" logical form, or he may not. We
can not really know that, can we? I mean, I would not automatically fault
anyone for assuming it, but it is an assumption, isn't it? Or, do you have
some data on John the fisherman's education that I do not know?

Peace,
Richard Allan Stauch
Long Beach, CA

PS: In broad general terms, and not to cast aspersions, it seems to me that
if one finds oneself driven into a theological defense to support a
translation, it is probably because the translation depends on the
theological position. Not to be taken personally, this is just a statement
of my response to the question of the level of interpretation required for
translation (caused by my frustration in trying to find the "perfect"
English translation). That is to say, I was just sharing.
RAS


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