Does TOUTO GAR CARIS EI... (1 Pet. 2:19) qualify as an idiom? It is translated "For this is commendable... " Ted Dr. Theodore "Ted" H. Mann thmann@juno.com http://www.homestead.com/ChristianResourcesLinks/index.html On Tue, 26 Dec 2000 22:46:27 -0700 "Wayne Leman" writes: > Phil responded: > > > > > > She has a green thumb. > > > He kicked the bucket. > > > Your eyes are bigger than your stomach. > > > > As you rightly explain, these are more "figures of speech" that > idioms... > > > Sorry, Phil, I didn't communicate clearly enuf: the above 3 English > sentences are precisely examples with English idioms. They are not > some > other figures of speech. My struggle has been trying to determine > whether > some specific example in NT Greek is a true idiom or some other > figure of > speech, such as euphemism, metonymy, etc. > > >but my question/comment > > may head off in another direction. Can you distinguish between a > Figure > of Speech and Euphemistic > > language? > > Euphemism is one class of figures of speech. Figures of speech is > the larger > set of which euphemisms are subset. > > > An example might be the use of "he is asleep" for "he is dead." > It seems > to me that > > these sorts of things cannot be translated as strict literal > phrases. > > Exactly. Very few languages, including English, use that original > Semiticism, which, unfortunately, has been preserved in many English > Bible > versions. It is not an accurate translation of the original meaning > of the > Greek text. Accurate translation calls for preserving the original > meaning > and making sure that if the original text was figurative that that > figurative meaning has been expressed accurately in the translation > language > so that the readers of the translation understand its original > meaning. We > can field test with users of translations to determine if they > understand > "fall asleep" to mean "to die." Of course, I think most of us on > this list > already know what the answer would be before we field test. > > > > > Two situations may arise. There may be some cultures that do not > understand sleep = dead, so their > > own cultural Figure of Speech (idiom) must be used. > > Correct. > > > A second problem is when a literal phrase is > > offensive in a culture and it usually "idiomized," referred to in > a FoS. > > Specifically, a euphemism, which is what "fall asleep" is in NT > Greek > (borrowed from Hebraic usage). > > > The translator has to be > > aware of how the biblical FoS comes across in English, and must > choose to > translate more or less > > literally. > > > Correct, depending on whether users of the translation accurately > understand > the original meaning from the translation wordings we use. We can > determine > their understanding by asking them, the scientific process of field > testing. > > > The Hebrew Bible is especially full of colorful language that is > lost in > translation, > > and rightly so. > > But it is interesting to footnote it because it is so colorful, > often, > earthy, and lively. Figures of speech enliven language all > throughout the > world. We just need to be sure we translate them properly into other > languages so their figurative meaning is understood accurately. A > huge > amount of the NT is written in figurative language and with > rhetorical > devices such as irony and hyperbole, so that we can easily miss the > originally intended message if we simply translate the words. > > Wayne > ---- > Wayne Leman > Bible translation website: > http://www.geocities.com/bible_translation > Bible translation discussion list: > bible-translation-subscribe@kastanet.org > > > > > _____NetZero Free Internet Access and Email______ > http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html > > --- > B-Greek home page: http://metalab.unc.edu/bgreek > You are currently subscribed to b-greek as: [thmann@juno.com] > To unsubscribe, forward this message to > leave-b-greek-327Q@franklin.oit.unc.edu > To subscribe, send a message to > subscribe-b-greek@franklin.oit.unc.edu > > ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. --- B-Greek home page: http://metalab.unc.edu/bgreek You are currently subscribed to b-greek as: [jwrobie@mindspring.com] To unsubscribe, forward this message to leave-b-greek-327Q@franklin.oit.unc.edu To subscribe, send a message to subscribe-b-greek@franklin.oit.unc.edu