Dear Carl and b-greekers, MK 6:22 -- EISELQOUSHS THS QUGATROS AUTHS [AUTOU] hHRWiDIADOS KAI ORCHSAMENHS HRESEN TWi hHRWiDHi... [Conrad] I'd say the evidence supports exactly what I would have expected: that AUTOS as an intensive pronoun normally PRECEDES the substantive which it governs, even if it may not uncommonly FOLLOW upon a personal pronoun; there is nothing problematic with AUTHS THS hHRWDIADOS as a genitive phrase meaning "of Herodias herself." I would agree that the Greek is awkward--the long string of genitives dependent upon other genitives--but the Byzantine text you're looking at is nevertheless intelligible and grammatically sound to mean: "and when the daughter of Herodias herself entered ..." [Ghilardi] I agree that the Greek is intelligible and grammatically sound, but I'm still unsure what exactly AUTHS intensifies. Is it THS hHRWDIADOS, or THS QUGATROS or THS QUGATROS THS hHRWDIADOS? It's medial position would seem to indicate the third alternative. [Conrad] I don't quite understand the third alternative; certainly it's conceivable that it's a simple 3rd person pronoun qualifying THS QUGATROS: "her daughter", but then to whom does AUTHS refer? Are we to read it with THS hHRWDIADOS as appositional to the pronoun AUTHS ("of her, Herodias"), that seems to me even more awkward than what we now have, and as the position of an intensive immediately preceding an arthrough proper name is perfectly normal Greek, why are we looking to explain difficile per difficilius? Are you eager to justify the Byzantine text over against the critical text... ? [Ghilardi] To answer your last question first: Simply, no. QEOS hO DIKAIWN! Rom 8:33 I have never given a thought (much less expression) to the notion that AUTHS might be "a simple 3rd person pronoun". I have been maintaining that AUTHS is an intensive pronoun right along. Your splendid break-down of the intensive use does indeed show, in the preponderance of cases, that the pronoun precedes the noun it intensifies. But in some cases, it follows. So I suggest that because AUTHS is found between THS QUGATROS and THS hHRWiDIADOS it does not merely intensify THS hHRWiDIADOS, as you think, but the entire phrase, THS QUGATROS THS hHRWiDIADOS. Why should Herodias ALONE be highlighted in this context? Does not the emphasis rather fall on "the DAUGHTER of Herodias" and at the same time on "the daughter of HERODIAS"? Thus, the medial position of the intensive pronoun AUTHS. I would render it thus: "When the very daughter of Herodias entered..." But this doesn't seem significantly different from your translation: "When the daughter of Herodias herself entered..." Since the simple personal possessive pronoun is out of the question, I don't see any "difficile per difficilius" involved here. I don't know why, Carl, we so often misunderstand each other. I'm not naive enough to think it's wholly due to the nature of the medium. Yours in His grace, Richard Ghilardi -- qodeshlayhvh@juno.com New Haven, CT USA Nibai kaurno hwaiteis gadriusando in airtha gaswiltith, silbo ainata aflifnith: ith jabai gaswiltith, manag akran bairith. --- B-Greek home page: http://metalab.unc.edu/bgreek You are currently subscribed to b-greek as: [jwrobie@mindspring.com] To unsubscribe, forward this message to leave-b-greek-327Q@franklin.oit.unc.edu To subscribe, send a message to subscribe-b-greek@franklin.oit.unc.edu