Keith:
You must have mulched these leaves along with lawn
clippings eh?
Usually takes years to get stand alone leaves in a
pile to do anything except
become wet and a forage for worms along the bottom
or merely a component
for a good composting mix.
If your outside temp is 0 and you can see steam
eminating from your pile turn,
turn, turn the pile. This will cook it and break it
down, cook any weed seed and
give you a wonderful medium when done. Donna and I
are great believers in
compost tea. I line my compost pit with a double
layer of 6 mil plastic set on
top of concrete pads and tipped at a pitch towards
the front to one corner.
I dig a hole and put a gal milk jug into the hole
to reclaim the solution and then
store it up in a big covered barrel on hand when
needed and use this as a
fertilizer throughout the season.
I might add kitchen waste to the "hot pile" now as
well. Egg shells, coffee grinds
etc as you've got a very valuable situation in that
it's cooking and able to
consume almost anything added, keep turning every
few days or so....
Happy Holidays!
Gianni
----- Original Message -----From: R. Keith EtheridgeSent: Tuesday, December 19, 2000 8:36 PMSubject: [nafex] compostingThis is my first year composting.I have a compacted pile
of leaves four feet high,fifteen feet in diameter held in by plastic snow
fence.The weather now is close to zero.
the interior is hot.Should I stir it now or wait for warmer weather?
Thanks in advance.
Keith Etheridge
Central Illinois,pawpaws,persimons, northern pecans
----- Original Message -----
From: <nafex@egroups.com>
To: <nafex@egroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2000 2:15 AM
Subject: [nafex] Digest Number 573
There are 23 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Re: Plant shipping costs
From: john bunker <jbunker@palermo.org>
2. Re: Tanglefoot
From: LONGDISTSHTR <longdistshtr@shtc.net>
3. Re: Plant shipping costs
From: "David A. Consolvo" <fruitopia@FIRSTVA.COM>
4. Re: Re: prunus tormentosa and robins
From: "del stubbs" <pinewoodel@hotmail.com>
5. medlar & Ashmead's K apple
From: "dwalsh/wchase" <wchase@interchange.ubc.ca>
6. Re: Re: NAFEX Handbook
From: PermacultureNo1@aol.com
7. Re: Hardy Apricots
From: john bunker <jbunker@palermo.org>
8. Re: Hardy Apricots
From: Claude Jolicoeur <cjoli@gmc.ulaval.ca>
9. Re: Plant shipping costs
From: PermacultureNo1@aol.com
10. Re: Hardy Plums
From: Claude Jolicoeur <cjoli@gmc.ulaval.ca>
11. Ashmead's K apple
From: john bunker <jbunker@palermo.org>
12. Re: NAFEX Handbook
From: rick valley <bamboogrove@cmug.com>
13. Re: Re: NAFEX Handbook
From: Claude Sweet <sweetent@home.com>
14. Re: Plant shipping costs
From: Ginda Fisher <ginda@concentric.net>
15. Re: Plant shipping costs
From: jim <jmc1@epix.net>
16. Re: Re: NAFEX Handbook
From: rick valley <bamboogrove@cmug.com>
17. Re: Plant shipping costs
From: applehilorchard@webtv.net
18. flat scarlet mite
From: Adrian.Barta@datcp.state.wi.us
19. Re: Ashmead's K apple
From: jnfischer@aol.com
20. Re: Plant shipping costs
From: john bunker <jbunker@palermo.org>
21. Re: Hardy Plums
From: john bunker <jbunker@palermo.org>
22. Re: Plum Testing
From: john bunker <jbunker@palermo.org>
23. Re: Re: Hardy Apricots & Cherries
From: Claude Jolicoeur <cjoli@gmc.ulaval.ca>
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 1
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 08:40:54 -0800
From: john bunker <jbunker@palermo.org>
Subject: Re: Plant shipping costs
Some time ago there were a number of emails posted discussing shipping
charges of nursery stock. There was some suggestion that shipping and
handling charges were excessive and may be used as a way of simply
making more money for the nurseries.
As someone who owns (cooperatively with a number of other people) a
mail-order nursery, I thought I might attempt to shed a little light on
the problems of shipping trees and why it might seem so expensive.
What you may not know is that it is hugely expensive to ship trees by
UPS. If it were simply a matter of weight, it would be pretty straight
forward, like most other products you might receive via mail-order. But
this is not the case. UPS in essense does not want our business. They
want to send out small-medium sized regularly-shaped packages that are
easy to process at the shipping centers, fit easily in their trucks and
are are easy for the delivery men to carry.
What this means for nursery owners:
Bags v Boxes. We used to ship our trees in big bags, or wrapped in brown
paper. The bags/paper are inexpensive and easy to use. As of several
years ago, UPS now adds a surcharge of $5.00 per package if the package
is not a box. That alone forces nurseries to buy boxes or pay an
additional $5 for every order. We were paying about $1.00 per bag. Now
we pay $2.50-5.00 per box depending on size.
Addtional handling. UPS adds a $5.00 surcharge for every package over
60" in length. That includes virtually any order we might send.
Residential v Commericial destination. UPS adds another $1.00 surcharge
for any package sent to a "residential" address. That's most customers,
since it's those folk who tend to buy nursery stock.
Oversize 1. If the combined lengths and widths (ie "girth") of a
package is more than 84" and less than 108" and less than 30lbs, then
the package is charged at 30 lbs, regardless of weight. This means that
for most nurseries, even very light packages of one or two tree are
routinely being charged the 30 lb rate.
Oversize 2. If the combined lengths and widths (ie "girth") of a
package is greater than 108" and less than 70 lbs, then the package is
charged at 70 lbs, regardless of weight. This means that for most
nurseries, larger boxes -even those that are not heavy- are charged at
the 70 lb rate.
Combining the automatic bump up to higher rates with the forced expense
of using boxes and the unavoidable surcharges of $5.00-6.00 per pacakge,
you might be able to see why it looks as though you're being ripped off
when you buy a tree. It is quite possible that if you buy one tree, the
actual costs of the packaging combined with the shipping costs and
surcharges might easily exceed the cost of the tree itself, not even
including anything for the labor of processing the order and packing it
up.
And, not only that, but these charges go up and up every year. As I
said, it appears that UPS is doing a lot to discourage nursery business.
But, even so, why not just figure each person's shipping charges on an
individual basis and charge them accordingly? It sounds equitable, but
to do this for evey customer, with all the variables, would add even
more expense to every order. Someone has to figure this out, and do the
paperwork involved in the billing. And, it's incredibly complicated. We
do everything we can to give our customers a simple -and fair- way of
figuring charges while at the same time not overcharging them. In the
process, we know some customers get charged slightly more than the
actual shipping expense and some, less. However, every year we analyse
our figures and it always comes out about even. We're not making money
on shipping trees to our customers, and we're trying to be fair.
Perhaps this just sounds like a rationale for gouging customers with
excessive shipping/handling charges. If so, so be it. Perhaps there
are some companies who engage in such pratices. But my guess is that
not many companies are getting rich on shipping. It's particularly
complicated and expensive for anyone who ships trees. I know of at
least two mail-order nurseries who called it quits this year. This is
not an easy business.
Sorry to be so long-winded, but perhaps this might help in the
discussion.
John Bunker, Coordinator, Fedco Trees Box 520 Waterville Me 04903
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 2
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 08:58:55 -0500
From: LONGDISTSHTR <longdistshtr@shtc.net>
Subject: Re: Tanglefoot
Thanks Derry for answering Jack's question. You are right about latex
with Thiram being easier to apply. Wish latex would work on Gypsy Moth
catepillars. Tanglefoot is similiar to grafting wax except it doesn't
harden when it cools. I purchased mine in a garden shop in New Jersey.
It can be used to prevent starlings from perching on un-wanted places.
It would be cruel to allow it to get on smaller song birds or kitty
cats. Happy Holidays! Doc Lisenby
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 3
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 08:46:11 -0500
From: "David A. Consolvo" <fruitopia@FIRSTVA.COM>
Subject: Re: Plant shipping costs
I might add that it's almost just as much work to ship a $20 order as it is
a $200 order. Any order, no matter the size, involves packaging, sealing,
labeling, recording, processing the check, and frequently correspondence
about questions, problems, etc. I don't blame any business for putting a
high flat fee for any size order. Lots of nurseries sell ONLY wholesale; I
appreciate those which are willing to sell me only a few plants at a time.
David Consolvo
Hungrytown, Virginia
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 4
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 14:32:17 -0000
From: "del stubbs" <pinewoodel@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Re: prunus tormentosa and robins
a local oldtimer , when he'd learned id planted nanking cherries and was
delighted with their growth in their 3rd year( they were 75 cents i recall,
conservation grade grom the soils and water people) he said "unless you can
keep the robins off of them when the berries are just tiny little green
specks youll never have a crop..... we watched with bated breath......alas!
Fair Robin Redbreast likes baby nankings as well as the first worm! the
question is what ELSE do they devour before one even realizes there is the
first hope of a crop? so now we'll net cover the cherries, just after petal
fall, to force the little beauties to keep to their beautiful carnivorous
selves and maybe keep out the legions of hungry chipmunks as well
minnesota del
>From: dwoodard@becon.org
>Reply-To: nafex@egroups.com
>To: nafex@egroups.com
>Subject: [nafex] Re: Hardy Cherries
>Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 07:24:03 -0000
>
>--- In nafex@egroups.com, Claude Jolicoeur <cjoli@g...> wrote:
>
> > My soil is mainly sandy with about a foot of organic topsoil,
>drainage is
> > good, not much clay. ...5 ft snow cover... Also, the site is well
>protected against cold North winds.
> >
> > My cherry trees are not vigorous, but they survive - I have a 15
>year old
> > Montmorency and a Meteor. They are affected by this gumming
>sickness, but I
> > don't know if it is the lack of vigour that render them susceptible
>to the
> > sickness or vice-versa. I also planted an Evans last year - it is
>too soon
> > to know how it will do. Wild P.virginiana and P.pensylvanica strive
> > everywhere around the orchard.
>
>If you have the space and money I suggest that you try Michurin sour
>cherry, available from Ken Taylor and possibly from other nurseries
>in Quebec. I imagine that it originated with Michurin at Michurinsk
>(now again Kozlov) which I think has a climate similar to Ottawa.
>I believe it was propagated from the Vineland collection (the sour
>cherries have since been moved) where it was known as Fruchtbare von
>Michurin; I believe it came via the USA and Germany.
>
>Ken Taylor told me that his Michurin had cropped heavily every year
>for more than ten years including 1994 after the famous test winter,
>on his high exposed ridge (admittedly on sand). His Meteor and North
>Star, growing in a more sheltered location, low near the lakeshore,
>not only were severely damaged and did not crop that year but had not
>recovered from damage suffered in an earlier and milder winter. The
>classical Montmorency did not survive test winters with Ken. He says
>that Michurin is a small dwarf tree growing to about 3 metres
>unpruned if I recall rightly, a morello like North Star and I
>understand Evans/Bala (dark juice, as opposed to Montmorency and
>Meteor which are amarelles with light coloured juice). Bala is the
>name under which Bill MacKently of St. Lawrence Nurseries, New York
>State sold Evans in the past.
>
>A lady cherry researcher at a Michigan university reported that
>Michurin bloomed nine days after Montmorency. The late Henri Bernard
>reported that Michurin seemed to him somewhat more disease resistant
>than Montmorency. Ken and Henri said that Michurin was markedly
>sweeter than Montmorency and could be eaten fresh with pleasure
>(although I also enjoy Montmorency fresh when they are dead ripe).
>
>I would like to see several people in cold areas grow both Evans/Bala
>and Michurin and report on their relative merits and weaknesses.
>Also, it is not beyond the bounds of possibility that they are the
>same, and this ought to be checked out.
>
>For comparison, there used to be a commercial sour cherry planting,
>mostly Montmorency with a few English Morello, with a grower
>(Rutter's) at Bloomfield in Prince Edward County, the large peninsula
>projecting from the north shore of Lake Ontario, zone 6a, which was
>wiped out in the severe winter of 1980-81. As far as I know it was
>not replanted.
>
>Ken had or has a hardy sweet cherry which he calls Quebec Bigarreau
>or Biga, which originated from a Bing seed near the shore below
>Quebec City. He told me that Biga seemed to have a degree of self-
>fertility, although Ken has quite a number of Prunus species about
>his place. The tree of Biga which Ken showed me in 1997 was then he
>said about 20 years old and was showing some winter injury, probably
>nearing the end of its lifespan.
>
>I note that there are some cultivars of chokecherry (Prunus
>virginiana) and pin cherry (Prunus pennsylvanica) sold by nurseries
>in the Prairie provinces. I think that some experiment station work
>has been done on them, at Beaverlodge, Alberta among others.
>
>Claude, have you grown Nanking cherry (Prunus tomentosa)? I have not,
>but I have been told that the best of them are quite good. There are
>selections which are sold for fruit, by among others Ken Taylor, and
>Beaverlodge Nurseries (if they are still in business). There are also
>unselected plants sold by mass-market nurseries on the P. T. Barnum
>principle ("there's a sucker born every minute"). Ditto for Mongolian
>cherry, Prunus fruticosa.
>
>Douglas Woodard
>
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 5
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 21:03:18 -0800
From: "dwalsh/wchase" <wchase@interchange.ubc.ca>
Subject: medlar & Ashmead's K apple
Gene,
I'm zone 7 PNW at sea level about 65 km from the sea ...lots of rain, mossy
lawns,
acidic sandy soils. It can get down to about -12°C (I think that's about
10°F).
Our highest temps in summer can go to about 88°F. Summers can often be wet.
So
your temps are more extreme.
My medlar, Westerveld, grows very well. Wyman's Gardening Encyclopedia says
it is
hardy to zone 5. The thing to know about medlars is that you DO plant the
union
below soil level. You hope it will scion root. I didn't know this and my
union
is about four inches above soil level. Tree is ten years old, about 12'
high, not
staked and seems to be fine. Lots of fruit each year (medlar is
self-fertile).
I think the fruit are supposed to be left at room temperature for about six
weeks
(bletted), then you squeeze them and this brown thick stuff comes out of the
center and you eat this. It is an 'acquired' taste. Those who has acquired
the
taste rave about them. I wasn't impressed, but there are Iranians who will
drive
for 1.5 hours to get my medlars. This year I gave them (about 11 lbs) to
someone
who is starting a connoisseurs jam-making home business. In return I hope
to get
a jar of jelly.
Again, I don't know the hardiness of Ashmeads Kernel, but I've just made a
couple
of trees. The apples are a connoisseurs apple. They don't look very good
(small
and a bit russeted), but I'm going to grow mine under shelters and this
should
increase the size and reduce the russeting. They are very flavourful and
quickly
sell out at the UBC Apple Festival.
Fruit Varieties Journal March 1964. Robert A Nitschke reported from an apple
tasting event in England: 'When votes for best tasting were counted,
Ashmead's
Kernel, received the largest number of first place votes. The others in
order were
Cox's Orange, Golden Delicious, William Crump, Kidd's Orange Red'
FVJ Oct 1965. Robert A. Nitschke ranked dessert apples in FVJ September 1960
and
now updates his ranking. He grows about 70 varieties in Birmingham,
Michigan. He
rates Ashmead's Kernel as 'in the first rank and a good keeper'.
Maybe other Nafexers who grow Ashmead's Kernel will let you know how it is
doing
in zone 6.
I don't have anything on Hidden Rose.
Derry
Derry Walsh & Bill Chase email:wchase@interchange.ubc.ca
Aldergrove, B. C., Canada
phone/fax (604) 856-9316
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Home web page http://www.interchange.ubc.ca/wchase/HTML
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
I'd appreciate feedback from any folks with experience with these
: varieties. I'm at 4000' in the southern Appalachians, zone 6 with cool
and
: often wet summers. Soil is naturally acidic - lots of my lawn is grass
: growing through moss.
:
: Apple varieties are Ashmead's Kernel and Hidden Rose
:
: I'm also considering getting the Nottingham medlar, Can anyone explain the
difference between "bletting",
: allowing the fruit to turn brown & soften, and "rotting".
:
: gene
: spears@lmc.edu
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 6
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 10:24:10 EST
From: PermacultureNo1@aol.com
Subject: Re: Re: NAFEX Handbook
In a message dated 12/17/00 1:18:08 PM, prcenter@webtv.net writes:
<< I do not think $1.00 a copy is too much to ask. Mr Fishman however seems
quite personable on the phone and I assume open to negotiation. giving an
estimated $5 for printing expenses... a $15.00 price would give NAFEX $9.00
per copy. If as before 7,500 copies were printed this would amount to about
$67 thousand dollars for NAFEX $7 thousand for the Author and a "budget" of
$37 thousand to recoup production, printing and distribution expenses. >>
I think it would be good to have a revised handbook, and othewise I have no
opinion on the positions other than that some of the parties may lack an
understanding of what is considered reasonable in publishing.
Typical costs of a publication are that the printing cost is multiplied by
10
to get to the retail cost. The author gets another 10 percent, the
publisher
gets 20 percent, the distributor gets 20 percent, and the retailer gets 40
percent. Short run publications can't function this way because the cost
would be out of sight and no one would get anything except the publisher,
who
gets a big printing bill plus overhead and promotion costs.
However one can see that there is lots of wiggle room, here, even if retail
is only 5 times the cost of printing. The author HAS to get a bigger
percentage because s/he has done a certain amount of work, regardless of how
many times it has been repicated. If I were making the arrangements, I
would
say 20 percent would be fair given agreement on the retail cost. AND given
that we are talking about a mostly volunteer organization, I would suggest
that in lieu of advance, the author could be given an agreed upon number of
books to sell privately that are credited against royalty on the basis of
printing cost only. So if the author wants to hustle, those books can bring
in 80 percent of retail. I am NOT saying that this should be or even might
be an arrangement for the Handbook. My purpose is ONLY to illustrate the
considrations and the areas where fair arrangements may be negotiated.
The board has a clear option, as does the author. Either or both can
completely rewrite the handbook so that it no longer resembles the original
in any way except information. Then copyright does not apply--information
is
not subject to copyright, only the work that has gone into organizing and
presenting it. I would recommend to any author, particularly one working
with volunteer organizations, that if the work is not 100 percent gift, s/he
should retain copyright. Copyright is really copyrights, and one can
transfer portions as one sees fit, such as first publication rights, etc.,
without giving away the farm. We assume, in our journal, that all authors
have given us ONLY one time publication rights, and obtain permission before
we reprint material in any other form, including my own courses.
For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since
1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses,
consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and annual correspondence
courses via email. Join our current online course, in progress. Copyright,
2000, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O. Box 52, Sparr FL 32192 USA Internships.
BarkingFrogsPC@aol.com
http://barkingfrogspc.tripod.com/frames.html
or
http://www.permaculture.net/~EPTA/Hemenway.htm
We don't have time to rush.
A list by topic of all Yankee Permaculture titles may be found at
http://csf.colorado.edu/perma/ypc_catalog.html
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 7
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 10:20:24 -0800
From: john bunker <jbunker@palermo.org>
Subject: Re: Hardy Apricots
Claude:
Do you know about Maison de la Prune in Saint Andre? They have an
orchard of Damas Bleu and a yellow Damas plum -I can't recall the name.
Maybe it's the one you can't identify. They have a very nice orchard of
over 1000 trees.
John Bunker
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 8
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 11:14:50 -0500
From: Claude Jolicoeur <cjoli@gmc.ulaval.ca>
Subject: Re: Hardy Apricots
Hello John,
I think I heard about this orchard. This is St-Andre de Kamouraska, isn't
it? On the South shore of St-Lawrence River, by Riviere-du-Loup.
All this area on the South Shore, La Pocatiere, Kamouraska, was a famous
place to grow plums at the turn of the XX century. I have seen books
written in the beginning of the 1900' mentioning dozens of European plums
successfully grown in this area - and this is zone 4... I understand there
is something to do with the soil which is particularely favorable. There
would be quite a bit of old variety seeking to do out there.
I know the yellow Damas, it has the same shape and size than the blue Damas
(like a very small Italian) - my father used to call them "Gosses de
moines". The one I have is really round like a Mirabelle or a Reine-Claude.
It produced a few plums for the first time last year, so I don't know it
much yet. I bought this tree as a sucker under the name White plum (Prunier
blanc). It does winter kill a little bit on test winters, but not much and
comes back with good vigour.
Claude
A 10:20 00.12.18 -0800, vous avez écrit :
>Claude:
>
>Do you know about Maison de la Prune in Saint Andre? They have an
>orchard of Damas Bleu and a yellow Damas plum -I can't recall the name.
>Maybe it's the one you can't identify. They have a very nice orchard of
>over 1000 trees.
>
>John Bunker
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 9
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 11:28:23 EST
From: PermacultureNo1@aol.com
Subject: Re: Plant shipping costs
John:
Why don't you just use the good old US Mail. I've never had the US mail
"lose" a package, deliver it to a vacant house, leave it outdoors exposed to
weather in hurricane season, deliver it to neighbors who may or may not
decide to keep it for themselves, deliver it to places I've long since
ceased
to live at, etc., etc., etc. We have pretty good drivers where we are now,
though no responsible parent would let his/her children outdoors at 5 p.m.
or
so when they come bombing through the area. Mostly they deliver to the
right
people, though things do get left outdoors from time to time and it is hit
or
miss whether they bother to get the "required"signature. FedEx is worse
because they don't want to come out to rural addresses--they only want the
cream of closely packed urban deliveries. They will claim that the road was
impassible on days when three or four vehicles use it, including UPS. From
the customer's point of view, I would like my mail delivered to my post
office box where I can pick it up when I am around and it will be under
cover
otherwise, and air conditioned in warm weather, a very important
consideration if one is expecting live plant material. (Fortunately, the
road is to the east of our buildings, so generally materials are in the
shade
if delivered by UPS--they come in the afternoon and they happen to come when
we are not away for a few days.
We have been shipping permaculture books and publicatons via US mail since
1982, and shipping them all over the world. We have never had a case where
the person didn't get the mail, though in some cases it had been slow.
(Mostly foreign, via surface, which would not be use for live plants,
obviously.) When we lived in Canada, we got a mail box in Niagra Falls
because it was quicker to drive to the USA once a week than to wait for the
Canadian mail, which is slower than many "Third World" countries I've
visited. But the US Mail is OK--way better than any alternatives in my
view.
Dan Hemenway
For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since
1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses,
consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and annual correspondence
courses via email. Join our current online course, in progress. Copyright,
2000, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O. Box 52, Sparr FL 32192 USA Internships.
BarkingFrogsPC@aol.com
http://barkingfrogspc.tripod.com/frames.html
or
http://www.permaculture.net/~EPTA/Hemenway.htm
We don't have time to rush.
A list by topic of all Yankee Permaculture titles may be found at
http://csf.colorado.edu/perma/ypc_catalog.html
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 10
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 11:38:41 -0500
From: Claude Jolicoeur <cjoli@gmc.ulaval.ca>
Subject: Re: Hardy Plums
Sorry list,
John and I should have changed the subject header from Hardy apricots to
Hardy plums in the last 2 messages.
By the way, John, how is the plum group doing these days? I haven't heard
about it for quite a while...
Claude
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Message: 11
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 11:24:04 -0800
From: john bunker <jbunker@palermo.org>
Subject: Ashmead's K apple
Ashmeads Kernal is plenty hardy in Maine (zone 4) and the eating quality
is exceptionally tasty. I love it.
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Message: 12
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 00 11:24:56 -0700
From: rick valley <bamboogrove@cmug.com>
Subject: Re: NAFEX Handbook
I think Dan Hemenway's post on the matter has alot of good ideas on the
subject, from someone who has some experience in the matters involved. I
would like to see the handbook available again, updated, even better.
Certainly NAFEX has the talent among the members to produce a valuable work
using many of us for writers, but when would we see it completed?
-Rick
Rick Valley Northern Groves
PO Box 1236, Philomath, OR 97370
Mobile-(541)602-1315, hm.& msg. (541)456-4364 Bamboo catalog $3 or at
<http://www.teleport.com/~dbrooks/bamboo.html>
"Useful Bamboos and other plants< Permaculture education< Ecological design
&
consultation centering on water,landform and horticultural systems"
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Message: 13
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 10:53:52 -0800
From: Claude Sweet <sweetent@home.com>
Subject: Re: Re: NAFEX Handbook
Over the years of explaining business practices to students, I have
found that the accounting practice of placing revenues above expenses on
an accounting statement misleads many students who lack a full
understanding of potential risks factors, cash flow, and break-even
concepts.
There are costs associated with collecting, verifying, editing, and
proofing articles for either printed or electronic media. These are paid
prior to any revenues being collected unless the author has a contract
with a stipulated cash advance.
There are mechanical setup costs for page layout, design, and artwork
for either print or electronic media. The publisher must pay for these
expenses in advance of advertising discounted advance (pre publication)
sales.
Print and electronic media have basic fees to start the process (a
minimum order of CDs or a minimum press run). After the initial number
ordered, it costs much less to run off additional copies. Students
frequently will base their business decisions on the reduced cost per
item by increasing the number of items ordered. The problem is that
unless the business plan suggests that the extra volume can be quickly
converted into cash, the profit may tied up in unsold inventory that
costs money to store and may actually become outdated so the asset value
quickly decreases. Don't forget there is a cost of borrowing money that
must be considered otherwise it is wiser to leave the money in an
interest bearing investment account.
The questions the NAFEX board must consider are numerous and their first
objective is to not jeopardize the focus of the primary goals and
objectives of the organization. Members pay their dues expecting 4
quarterly issues of POMONA and holding of the annual meeting/conference.
What is the audience for the handbook - beginners, novices, experts?
What topics would the handbook contain?
What format would the handbook take - 3 ring binder, magazine 8-11
inches, etc.?
Would the handbook be sold only to NAFEX members?
Would the enterprise be a fund raiser vs a non-profit membership benefit
designed only to recover publication costs?
It is possible to support the concept, but reject the idea because of
the potential risks, costs, and the lack of a team to undertake the
project in a timely fashion.
This is my opinion and along with $4 you can get a cup of coffee at
Starbucks.
Have a happy and safe holiday season.
Claude Sweet
San Diego, CA
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Message: 14
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 14:28:30 -0500
From: Ginda Fisher <ginda@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Plant shipping costs
I have had the US Postal service lose a package, and I've frequently had
my letters left next door. (If I notice that I got all of one
neighbor's mail, I go over to the other neighbor to collect my own.) I
have received parcels for people who long since left my house (including
prescription drug samples for the doctors who used to live here.) They
do leave my packages in a protected spot in the shade.
I wouldn't recommend using USPS without checking with the customer. It
varies a lot by location.
Ginda
PermacultureNo1@aol.com wrote:
>
> John:
> Why don't you just use the good old US Mail. I've never had the US
> "lose" a package, deliver it to a vacant house, leave it outdoors exposed
to
> weather in hurricane season, deliver it to neighbors who may or may not
> decide to keep it for themselves, deliver it to places I've long since
ceased
> to live at, etc., etc., etc. We have pretty good drivers where we are
now,
> though no responsible parent would let his/her children outdoors at 5 p.m.
or
> so when they come bombing through the area. Mostly they deliver to the
right
> people, though things do get left outdoors from time to time and it is hit
or
> miss whether they bother to get the "required"signature. FedEx is worse
> because they don't want to come out to rural addresses--they only want the
> cream of closely packed urban deliveries. They will claim that the road
was
> impassible on days when three or four vehicles use it, including UPS.
From
> the customer's point of view, I would like my mail delivered to my post
> office box where I can pick it up when I am around and it will be under
cover
> otherwise, and air conditioned in warm weather, a very important
> consideration if one is expecting live plant material. (Fortunately, the
> road is to the east of our buildings, so generally materials are in the
shade
> if delivered by UPS--they come in the afternoon and they happen to come
when
> we are not away for a few days.
>
> We have been shipping permaculture books and publicatons via US mail since
> 1982, and shipping them all over the world. We have never had a case
where
> the person didn't get the mail, though in some cases it had been slow.
> (Mostly foreign, via surface, which would not be use for live plants,
> obviously.) When we lived in Canada, we got a mail box in Niagra Falls
> because it was quicker to drive to the USA once a week than to wait for
the
> Canadian mail, which is slower than many "Third World" countries I've
> visited. But the US Mail is OK--way better than any alternatives in my
view.
>
> Dan Hemenway
> For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since
> 1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design
Courses,
> consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and annual
correspondence
> courses via email. Join our current online course, in progress.
Copyright,
> 2000, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O. Box 52, Sparr FL 32192 USA
Internships.
> BarkingFrogsPC@aol.com
> http://barkingfrogspc.tripod.com/frames.html
> or
> http://www.permaculture.net/~EPTA/Hemenway.htm
> We don't have time to rush.
>
> A list by topic of all Yankee Permaculture titles may be found at
> http://csf.colorado.edu/perma/ypc_catalog.html
>
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Message: 15
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 14:54:05 +0000
From: jim <jmc1@epix.net>
Subject: Re: Plant shipping costs
John, you've really hit the nail on the head -- your experience is exactly
the same as ours. We have the impression that UPS really doesn't want our
business. Like you, we are particularly hard-hit on orders for 3 to 10
trees, weighing only 5 to 15 lbs.
Some of their odd quirks you didn't mention:
They make a $2.00/pkg surcharge if delivering to a residence. If a package
is addressed to Hillcrest Farm, and if there is a marked Farm office
separate from the residence, they will deliver there and charge only a
$1.00/pkg surcharge -- but if the office is in the same building as
residence, the full $2.00/pkg applies.
Our boxes (@$4.00!!)) we had custom-made exactly to UPS specs.
Unfortunately, when filled with trees, the ends may bulge half an inch.
UPS now measures boxes electronically, and even 1/8" over their
length+girth nonsense results in all the penalties to which you refer.
We've 5 or 6,000 bags on hand that now are only scrap paper; sure were
mighty handy for shipping rootstocks, brambles, etc. Now useless.
We have usually had good delivery service from UPS, but occasionally (maybe
5 packages out of 100) part of a shipment will get lost and sit in Pierre
for a week.
I wish there were viable alternative. RPS has similar rates but even less
interest in our business. We'll be trying Postal Service this spring for
small packs.
Presumably UPS interstate rates are under ICC oversight. John, maybe that
could be a chink in the UPS armor!
//Jim
www.cumminsnursery.com
john bunker wrote:
> Some time ago there were a number of emails posted discussing shipping
> charges of nursery stock. There was some suggestion that shipping and
> handling charges were excessive and may be used as a way of simply
> making more money for the nurseries.
>
> As someone who owns (cooperatively with a number of other people) a
> mail-order nursery, I thought I might attempt to shed a little light on
> the problems of shipping trees and why it might seem so expensive.
>
> What you may not know is that it is hugely expensive to ship trees by
> UPS. If it were simply a matter of weight, it would be pretty straight
> forward, like most other products you might receive via mail-order. But
> this is not the case. UPS in essense does not want our business. They
> want to send out small-medium sized regularly-shaped packages that are
> easy to process at the shipping centers, fit easily in their trucks and
> are are easy for the delivery men to carry.
>
> What this means for nursery owners:
>
> Bags v Boxes. We used to ship our trees in big bags, or wrapped in brown
> paper. The bags/paper are inexpensive and easy to use. As of several
> years ago, UPS now adds a surcharge of $5.00 per package if the package
> is not a box. That alone forces nurseries to buy boxes or pay an
> additional $5 for every order. We were paying about $1.00 per bag. Now
> we pay $2.50-5.00 per box depending on size.
>
> Addtional handling. UPS adds a $5.00 surcharge for every package over
> 60" in length. That includes virtually any order we might send.
>
> Residential v Commericial destination. UPS adds another $1.00 surcharge
> for any package sent to a "residential" address. That's most customers,
> since it's those folk who tend to buy nursery stock.
>
> Oversize 1. If the combined lengths and widths (ie "girth") of a
> package is more than 84" and less than 108" and less than 30lbs, then
> the package is charged at 30 lbs, regardless of weight. This means that
> for most nurseries, even very light packages of one or two tree are
> routinely being charged the 30 lb rate.
>
> Oversize 2. If the combined lengths and widths (ie "girth") of a
> package is greater than 108" and less than 70 lbs, then the package is
> charged at 70 lbs, regardless of weight. This means that for most
> nurseries, larger boxes -even those that are not heavy- are charged at
> the 70 lb rate.
>
> Combining the automatic bump up to higher rates with the forced expense
> of using boxes and the unavoidable surcharges of $5.00-6.00 per pacakge,
> you might be able to see why it looks as though you're being ripped off
> when you buy a tree. It is quite possible that if you buy one tree, the
> actual costs of the packaging combined with the shipping costs and
> surcharges might easily exceed the cost of the tree itself, not even
> including anything for the labor of processing the order and packing it
> up.
>
> And, not only that, but these charges go up and up every year. As I
> said, it appears that UPS is doing a lot to discourage nursery business.
>
> But, even so, why not just figure each person's shipping charges on an
> individual basis and charge them accordingly? It sounds equitable, but
> to do this for evey customer, with all the variables, would add even
> more expense to every order. Someone has to figure this out, and do the
> paperwork involved in the billing. And, it's incredibly complicated. We
> do everything we can to give our customers a simple -and fair- way of
> figuring charges while at the same time not overcharging them. In the
> process, we know some customers get charged slightly more than the
> actual shipping expense and some, less. However, every year we analyse
> our figures and it always comes out about even. We're not making money
> on shipping trees to our customers, and we're trying to be fair.
>
> Perhaps this just sounds like a rationale for gouging customers with
> excessive shipping/handling charges. If so, so be it. Perhaps there
> are some companies who engage in such pratices. But my guess is that
> not many companies are getting rich on shipping. It's particularly
> complicated and expensive for anyone who ships trees. I know of at
> least two mail-order nurseries who called it quits this year. This is
> not an easy business.
>
> Sorry to be so long-winded, but perhaps this might help in the
> discussion.
>
> John Bunker, Coordinator, Fedco Trees Box 520 Waterville Me 04903
>
[This message contained attachments]
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Message: 16
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 00 14:05:45 -0700
From: rick valley <bamboogrove@cmug.com>
Subject: Re: Re: NAFEX Handbook
Here's my answers to Claude's Q's. But I'd rather go to a better coffee
place than Starbucks! -Rick
>What is the audience for the handbook - beginners, novices, experts?
entry to mid
>What topics would the handbook contain?
consider the first and add new topics if it seems a good idea. For
instance, as a bamboo grower, I can say it ought to have a section on the
importance of integrating bamboo in a fruit growing situation.
;)
>What format would the handbook take - 3 ring binder, magazine 8-11
>inches, etc.?
a handbook ought to be a handy size
>Would the handbook be sold only to NAFEX members?
The SSE sells their publications to anybody. The book could be
outreach/advertising if it was more generally available.
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Message: 17
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 14:58:56 -0600 (CST)
From: applehilorchard@webtv.net
Subject: Re: Plant shipping costs
This year I decided to charge actual cost of box and UPS charge, this
way, no complaint about shipping charges. LEE ELLIOTT at CIDER HILL
NURSERY. P.S. Iv'e had good luck with the U.S. Postal Service too.
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Message: 18
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 21:28:19 -0000
From: Adrian.Barta@datcp.state.wi.us
Subject: flat scarlet mite
The flat scarlet mite (Cenopalpus pulcher) has been detected in the
USDA National Clonal Germplasm Repository in Corvallis, Oregon.
(Actually, the mite was found in 1990, but mis-identified then. It's
hard to identify something you've never seen before.) The flat
scarlet mite is reportedly a minor pest in Europe and the Middle
East. It is a concern for plant protection people here in the U.S.,
because one never knows how an organism will react, freed of its
natural controls. It is a particular concern having been found at
the Germplasm Repository, as the mite may have been shipped
nationwide.
Here in Wisconsin, the state Department of Ag, Trade and Consumer
Protection will be conducting a survey for the mite, and contacting
people who received scionwood from Corvallis in the last ten years.
I suspect some other states may do the same, unless they're
waist-deep in Plum Pox work. I wish I had more information to offer
you all, but right now, we've got very little. I'll keep the group
informed.
Adrian Barta
WI DATCP Pest Survey
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Message: 19
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 17:27:09 EST
From: jnfischer@aol.com
Subject: Re: Ashmead's K apple
I have an Asmead's Kernal here in northern Virginia and it's doing fine,
although a light bearer. I also find them from time to time in Blue Ridge
Mountain farm markets around Harrisonburg, Virginia. It's a great apple for
my taste, one of the very best.
Jack Fischer
Oakton, Virginia
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Message: 20
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 16:54:28 -0800
From: john bunker <jbunker@palermo.org>
Subject: Re: Plant shipping costs
In the past we've not used US Mail for a variety of reasons including
expense and lack of tracking. We do send via US Mail to some customers
who ask for it. Also to Alaska. Maybe it's time to look into it again.
Thanks,
John Bunker, Fedco
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Message: 21
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 16:56:11 -0800
From: john bunker <jbunker@palermo.org>
Subject: Re: Hardy Plums
Yes Claude, that's the place. I went there last fall. They were
extremely nice and very generous with their time. And the plum orchards
are beautiful.
John
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Message: 22
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 16:59:03 -0800
From: john bunker <jbunker@palermo.org>
Subject: Re: Plum Testing
I'm planning to work on the plum presence on the Nafex web site this
winter and attempt to reinvigorate the plum testing group. Anyone with
thoughts on the subject is more that welcome to help out, make
suggestions, etc.
John Bunker
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Message: 23
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 23:38:46 -0500
From: Claude Jolicoeur <cjoli@gmc.ulaval.ca>
Subject: Re: Re: Hardy Apricots & Cherries
Douglas,
Thanks again for your notes on apricots and cherries.
You wrote:
>I don't know what winter thaws and spring weather are like around
>Quebec City, but they are certainly bad enough from the dormancy
>point of view at Montreal. I would surmise that where maple sugar and
>syrup can readily be produced, Prunus mandshurica is not well
>adapted, and P.armeniaca will often be irregular in cropping - but
This is certainly the case. My orchard is in the county of Charlevoix and,
although not as famous as the Beauce region for maple syrup, the maples do
produce very good syrup.
>It's hard to draw conclusions from one tree; there are so many
>variables. I would be very cautious about the rootstock question.
>Nurseries are often quite irresponsible about marginal customers and
>the home-grower market.
I totally agree with you on this. As a list member mentioned recently, when
one has a sample of 100 trees, then it is possible to draw a real
conclusion. However, this requires a lot of space, time and money...
>Claude, have you grown Nanking cherry (Prunus tomentosa)? I have not,
>but I have been told that the best of them are quite good. There are
>selections which are sold for fruit, by among others Ken Taylor, and
>Beaverlodge Nurseries (if they are still in business). There are also
>unselected plants sold by mass-market nurseries on the P. T. Barnum
>principle ("there's a sucker born every minute"). Ditto for Mongolian
>cherry, Prunus fruticosa.
About the cherries, I have some hope that Evans will do better than the
usual Montmorency, Meteor and Northstar. However, I am quite sure it is not
the climate that keep them from being healthy, as I have seen specimens of
the same varieties that are very healthy in the same climate or even colder
(at Murray Bay for example). There is a Montmorency at my father's place in
Quebec City that has produced good crops every year for over 20 years (this
is a bit warmer than my orchard, however). Even after the very cold 1994-95
winter, my cherry trees were not in any worse state than after a milder
winter (and they flowered). There has to be something else they don't like
at my place...
I haven't tried the Nankin nor the Mongolia. From what I understand, the
fruit is only good cooked - and I don't really like to cook pies. Like you,
I really enjoy a well ripe Montmorency eaten off the tree. The only thing
is that my tree produces about 12 cherries a year.
About Ken's bigarreau, if I look at the map, I see that he is in the warmer
part of zone 5, and you say his bigarreau is showing some winter injury. I
am in the colder part of zone 4... I did try a Hedelfingen which lived from
1990 to 1998. It flowered a few times but I didn't get a single cherry. My
feeling is that all bigarreaux are hopeless in zone 4, even the hardiest
like the Gold.
When I planted the Evans, I promised myself this was the last chance I
would give to cherries. You almost convinced me to try this Michurin before
I get positive results out of the Evans. I'll think about it...
Claude
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