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Re: [SANET-MG] MAS and organics



Hi Dale,
First who is RA Fisher? As a person who has been a professional in genetics for fifty years my thought was, would he ask who is Mendel? or Who is God? In fact RA Fisher was one of the three founders of population genetics and a major inventor of statistical techniques. RA Fisher first described quantitative traits (QTL) and theorized that the QTL mainly added minute additive contributions to size,etc. The big discussion in MAS now is about the cost ineffectiveness of MAS when Fisher's rule applies, there a are very many minute contributions. The examples of Fisher's rule was in oil in maize and size in chickens where MAS would kick ass until its legs are stumps and still make very little progress. The problem is minute additive effects not marker density. Regarding Wytze's point about patents, I believe the markers can be patented but the linked loci are separate. Plant patents may be acquired using MAS but those patents are no different from the current plant patents, I think. MAS has power in identifying genes in crops, feral crop weeds and natural populations. If courts were fair and honest MAS would block patents because the QTL are in wild populations. However, it is clear that courts are neither fair nor honest , so all bets are off.
Hope that clears up without obfuscating? sincerely,Joe Cummins
Dale Wilson wrote:
Joe wrote:

Turning to marker assisted selection (MAS) I agree that it is
something that organic agriculture can embrace because the crop genes are selected not altered. Nevertheless,for some important QTL R.A.Fisher will prevail leaving selection in the hands of patient breeders.


I don't know what *you* mean by QTL, but I know what Pioneer and
Monsanto mean by "QTL" and it is not about being patient (although
Fisher and Mendel nevertheless prevail).  When you got high-density
maps and giant robotic assemblies for mass production PCR on
tens-of-thousands of lines, you can kick butt.  You can do in a few
hours what used to take years.  This is where *conventional* breeding
is at now.

Lawrence wrote:

Is that "patent" or "patient"?


Yeah, good question!


Who is R.A. Fisher.


He is practically the father of statistics and conventional breeding. Brilliant guy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronald_Fisher


existing organic plant breeders (often seed vendors who grow their
own or contract grow-out to larget operations) will be able to
access. This sounds like a really exciting development. Would
setting up a MAS lab by an organic heirloom seed vendor be cost
-prohibitive (that includes cost of technician training or hiring
one off-site)?


Why would a seed *vendor* want to do that?  Especially an heirloom seed
vendor.  Doesn't the term "heirloom" imply *no breeding*?

You know, few parties do honest-to-God breeding.  Even what seem like
big regional corn seed companies with "research" departments, don't do
it because it is cheaper to buy genetics from a genetics company. Monsanto is the big player in the genetics supply business because they
purchased Holdens.

The cost is not just laboratory and personnel, but it is infrastructure
and information.  MAS is built on private conventional breeding
infrastructure.  Marker-assisted selection requires a large amount of
information that is generally not publicly available.

Wytze wrote:

This is one of the rare occasions where I disagree with [Joe]. MAS
leads inevitbly to patented hybrids and is impossible in open
pollinating systems. I doubt that that is really helpful for the
development of organic agriculture.


I agree that MAS tends to produce patented or at least PVPed varieties
and hybrids.  But why can't organic farmers use those?  And, of course
crops like wheat, soy, Phaseolus are never open-pollinated, they just
automatically self.  What is the big deal about OP?

As far as I know, the organic rules allow the use of patented
varieties.  I mean, if a variety is really good, it is probably worth
buying commercial seed to get it (you can buy some such seed produced
organically).  There are some darn good varieties developed by these
big companies.
Dale

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