[compost_tea] Jeff Lowenfels's Best Practices

From: chris reid <reidchris_at_earthlink.net>
Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2003 09:16:23 -0400

Jeff,

Thanks for your valuable input on how to get the best tea. You are making
great, clear suggestions that I value very much.

Not to make you sorry you posted, but...could you answer some questions? I
would like to be clear on how to implement what you have offered. On some
points, others may have input - please feel free to comment.


2. Start with activated compost. There seems to little question that
starting the fungi growing using a handful of oatmeal flakes of one sort of
another increases the fungi available to be extracted into the tea.
Activation in a container with a loose lid for three to five days at 80 in
the dark is ideal.

QUESTION: could you please further describe? You once mentioned baby
oatmeal. Specifically, are you activating all the compost that will be used
in your next batch of tea? How much oatmeal would you add per cup or other
unit of compost? Do you moisten? How much? Do you consider the fungi
activated once you see strands -- are you going for a certain amount of
stranding to consider the compost well activated? Detail: I am assuming
chlorinated water is not recommended for this process!

3. Make sure your machine is spotless. It doesn't take much slime to do in a
good tea.

QUESTION: What materials and techniques do you use to get your machine
spotless? For example, I poured some peroxide into the clear tube carrying
air from pump to tea and swished it around. A toothbrush would probably
work on the threaded screws. I use dish detergent on the trash can, rinsed
well. (NOTE: This is not an insignificant process time-wise. Thus,
brewers that are easy to clean translate into money savers for people who
make tea and use it as part of their business. Inventors, take note!)

I use a sponge so I don't create scratches on the plastic and create
crevices for organisms to lodge.

4. If you have an air machine, throw in a handful of bark (orchid bark?) or
large sticks to help break up compost while you brew.

QUESTION: What do you mean, break it up? Do you mean, dislodge
microorganisms? The compost I use is not lumpy, for example. Just want to
understand.

5. Use only Kelp and Humic Acids as your ingredients to start.

QUESTION: Do you have a recipe recommendation? For example, how much kelp
and humic acid per 5 gallons of tea, with how much compost? Also, kelp
comes as kelp meal, kelp extract, and I think liquid foods with a percentage
as kelp. Specifics will help people new to these ingredients.

6. If the test has low fungal numbers, next add some rock phosphate.

QUESTION: You mean rock phosphate, not colloidal (soft rock) phosphate,
right? How much is some, and per how many gallons of ? Is this
recommendation for air pumped brewers only? I think some people have
commented that rock phosphate has damaged their pumps when tea goes through
the actual pump.

I will add your response to the best practices info I am collecting.
Thanks, Jeff.

Chris Reid


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Message: 11
   Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 09:12:08 -0700
   From: "Mike Bosko" <mjbosko_at_jmtsystems.com>
Subject: RE: ACT Test

Hold up just a few steps though. What is the purpose of this test? Is it
to find a better brewer? Or is it to find the better method (eg: Test1:
air, water, air/water pumping, Test2: Container size/shape, etc etc etc)?

I don't think we are looking to find the better brewer this soon, are we? I
think if we get the technology figured out first, it will help to not
exclude a given mfg from business. We're here to help them make better
brewers, not put them out of business by hitting them with bad publicity due
to potentially poor results; I'd rather work with a mfg who is willing to
continually improve their brewers - not one that has the best brewer NOW.
The tech is new, the idea is new - I don't expect anyone to be the best in
this field yet. This way too, the mfg's have a chance to use the
information from the tests to enhance or better improve their brewers. We
all win that way.

It personally think we should be testing for best containers size/shape,
pumping method waaay before testing a given manufacturer. That's my two
cents though. Others?

Following the tests, a round robin discussion would be neat to hear what the
brewers think of the results, what the consumers thought, ways to better
test the next time, and better, for all to discuss ideas for improvement of
the machines, technology, etc.

Thanks for taking this thought seriously folks, its great!

Mike

JMT SYSTEMS CONSULTING
http://www.jmtsystems.com
info_at_jmtsystems.com / 509 968-9015

-----Original Message-----
From: Judi Stewart [mailto:js_at_olympus.net]
Sent: Sunday, August 31, 2003 6:31 AM
To: compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com
Subject: [compost_tea] ACT Test

Jeff, thanks for that good news. Now we have a standard compost.

What are the next steps?

What will be the standard recipe for the size of the machine, temperature,
etc.?

Should ingredients be determined by SFI?

Should compost amounts be determined by SFI or the manufacturer of the
brewer?

Which one of you will take the lead and put this shebang together? (I
imagine there
would be e-mails off-list in handling this.)

Who out there is willing to participate in testing? Lurkers are needed and
wanted.

How many are participating and which brewers are included?

If the brewer manufacturers are not on this list will they be contacted to
join the test?

Judi

-----Original Message-----
From: Jeff Lowenfels [mailto:jeff_at_gardener.com]
Sent: Saturday, August 30, 2003 7:27 PM
To: compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [compost_tea] Re: ACT

If SFI does the testing, we will throw in the Alaska Humus as the compost to
use......

Cheers,

Jeff
www.alaskahumus.com <http://www.alaskahumus.com>





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Message: 12
   Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 15:30:27 -0500
   From: "Steve Bridges" <kimas_at_texasgrown.com>
Subject: Song with AACT

To hear possibly the world's first song that mentions compost tea, go to
http://www.texasgrown.com/ and click on the band to the left.

It's our new theme song for the nursery! There's also an article about
compost tea on the homepage.

For those of you that don't know Bill Oliver, he is an environmental
troubadour, known as Mr. Habitat, that sings songs for the environment all
over the country. He's the guy on the right. http://www.mrhabitat.net/ If
you ever need live music for an event.......

Steve Bridges


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Message: 13
   Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 13:28:27 -0800
   From: irene bensinger <irene_at_trilliumwoods.com>
Subject: ACT at Western Washington fair?

  Kirk Leonard wrote:

> Let's do more
>local/regional tea meets, introduce ACT to new folks, show and tell,
compete
>some, work with folks on their own teas and composts. Every farm market,
>garden club event,
>county or state fair ought to have an ACT presence, too.


Great idea. Speaking of which, will anyone being demonstrating ACT at
the Puyallup (Western Washington State Fair) next week?

irene in *parched* western WA
irene_at_trilliumwoods.com



________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 14
   Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 11:30:26 -0700
   From: "Mike Bosko" <mjbosko_at_jmtsystems.com>
Subject: RE: ACT Test

Hold up just a few steps though. What is the purpose of this test? Is it
to find a better brewer? Or is it to find the better method (eg: Test1:
air, water, air/water pumping, Test2: Container size/shape, etc etc etc)?

I don't think we are looking to find the better brewer this soon, are we? I
think if we get the technology figured out first, it will help to not
exclude a given mfg from business. We're here to help them make better
brewers, not put them out of business by hitting them with bad publicity due
to potentially poor results; I'd rather work with a mfg who is willing to
continually improve their brewers - not one that has the best brewer NOW.
The tech is new, the idea is new - I don't expect anyone to be the best in
this field yet. This way too, the mfg's have a chance to use the
information from the tests to enhance or better improve their brewers. We
all win that way.

It personally think we should be testing for best containers size/shape,
pumping method waaay before testing a given manufacturer. That's my two
cents though. Others?

Following the tests, a round robin discussion would be neat to hear what the
brewers think of the results, what the consumers thought, ways to better
test the next time, and better, for all to discuss ideas for improvement of
the machines, technology, etc.

Thanks for taking this thought seriously folks, its great!

Mike

JMT SYSTEMS CONSULTING
http://www.jmtsystems.com
info_at_jmtsystems.com / 509 968-9015

-----Original Message-----
From: Judi Stewart [mailto:js_at_olympus.net]
Sent: Sunday, August 31, 2003 6:31 AM
To: compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com
Subject: [compost_tea] ACT Test

Jeff, thanks for that good news. Now we have a standard compost.

What are the next steps?

What will be the standard recipe for the size of the machine, temperature,
etc.?

Should ingredients be determined by SFI?

Should compost amounts be determined by SFI or the manufacturer of the
brewer?

Which one of you will take the lead and put this shebang together? (I
imagine there
would be e-mails off-list in handling this.)

Who out there is willing to participate in testing? Lurkers are needed and
wanted.

How many are participating and which brewers are included?

If the brewer manufacturers are not on this list will they be contacted to
join the test?

Judi

-----Original Message-----
From: Jeff Lowenfels [mailto:jeff_at_gardener.com]
Sent: Saturday, August 30, 2003 7:27 PM
To: compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [compost_tea] Re: ACT

If SFI does the testing, we will throw in the Alaska Humus as the compost to
use......

Cheers,

Jeff
www.alaskahumus.com <http://www.alaskahumus.com>





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Message: 15
   Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 19:47:55 EDT
   From: sbrustkern_at_aol.com
Subject: Re: Song with AACT

Great song! Also a great job done on your site!

Steve Brustkern
<A HREF="www.intlctc.org">www.intlctc.org</A>


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Message: 16
   Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 19:28:54 EDT
   From: sbrustkern_at_aol.com
Subject: Re: ACT Test

K.I.S. 55 G.

Steve Brustkern


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Message: 17
   Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 07:51:58 -0700
   From: "Mike Bosko" <mjbosko_at_jmtsystems.com>
Subject: RE: Re: ACT

I’m not sure what your message is in response to exactly.

Do you track batches of you AH? Can you tell what batch came from what
piece of land so it would be uniform for each vender’s machine? If you don’
t track batches, is each bag large enough to accommodate a brew for each
vendor’s machine?

I suppose if its all batched and mixed well into one container for each
vendor to draw from, that could work too. But I wouldn’t suggest using one
bag for each vendor. I’ve always been curious anyway, how do you dredge
your AH, and package it?

Mike

JMT SYSTEMS CONSULTING
http://www.jmtsystems.com
info_at_jmtsystems.com / 509 968-9015

-----Original Message-----
From: Jeff Lowenfels [mailto:jeff_at_gardener.com]
Sent: Saturday, August 30, 2003 7:27 PM
To: compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [compost_tea] Re: ACT

If SFI does the testing, we will throw in the Alaska Humus as the compost to
use......

Cheers,

Jeff
www.alaskahumus.com <http://www.alaskahumus.com>



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Message: 18
   Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2003 00:34:19 -0000
   From: "tomjasz" <tom_at_livesoil.com>
Subject: Re: ACT Test

Tom Jaszewski

702-595-7012



-----Original Message-----
From: Jeff Lowenfels [mailto:jeff_at_gardener.com]
Sent: Sunday, August 31, 2003 1:07 PM
To: compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [compost_tea] ACT Test



Ah, I might have misunderstood! I thought we were going to get SFI
to do the testing for us..meaning all the conditions would be the
same. That is really the only way to make it work...There are simply
too many variables....ranging from the kind of soap people use on
their hands to exactly where they make their tea. For this "test" to
work, it really has to be in one room, at one time, with the same
compost and the same water and the same nutrients.........



TOM WROTE> Which pretty much makes it pointless! We may as well make
a donation to SFI. Even under SFI conditions what do we learn? Noone
builds a machine that brews tea like every other machine?



As I have said before, this will be fun, but, THE REAL TEST IS WHAT
YOUR OWN TEA IS LIKE...and how it impacts your particular soil
foodweb situation. The idea of finding a world champion machine seems
silly if we know that almost all machines out there, with the sad
exception of the Soil Soup machine are capable of making teas that
meet both the fungal and the bacterial ranges SFI has developed. That
is what counts. Not whose makes the best tea with the exact nutrients
we are going to pick. In fact, this sounds like taking plate counts
on a larger scale!



TOM WROTE> There are more dogs than SS…..sadly!



So, again, it will be fun but I don't think it will prove a darn
thing.



TOM WROTE> I agree this sort of testing shows little! Anyone worked
with a brewer that produces great tea regardless of the ingrediants?
It seems pretty clear the recipres are specific to the device?


Having said that, if you want to make better tea, do so with your own
machine--fungal tea is what seems to be the problem. Here are my
suggestions:



1. Buy the Compost tea manual from SFI (WWW.SOILFOODWEB.COM .



2. Start with activated compost. There seems to little question that
starting the fungi growing using a handful of oatmeal flakes of one
sort of another increases the fungi available to be extracted into
the tea. Activation in a container with a loose lid for three to five
days at 80 in the dark is ideal. If your compost fungi don't activate
(no white, Santa beard strands), since it is Sunday --then buy Alaska
Humus (WWW.ALASKAHUMUS.COM).



TOM WROTE> Or tested vermicompost?





3. Make sure your machine is spotless. It doesn't take much slime to
do in a good tea. How many days would you go without brushing your
teeth? One day? Two? Three? The same build-up in those hoses and
cranny's occurs after one, two and three brews.



4. If you have an air machine, throw in a handful of bark (orchid
bark?) or large sticks to help break up compost while you brew.



5. Use only Kelp and Humic Acids as your ingredients to start. Have
the tea tested by SFI. These ingredients usually put tea into the
ranges suggested.



6. If the test has low fungal numbers, next add some rock phosphate.
At the same time, use your 15 minutes with SFI to explore whether you
are making your tea properly. People complain about SFI's price, but
you can get an awful lot of information for that price, so the
complaining isn't really fair. Use your time.



7.If this test has low fungal numbers, contact the brewer
manufacturer. Almost all of them will work with you to get your teas
up to snuff.



8. Consider buying a nutrient mix from those of us that sell 'em.



Some thoughts.









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Message: 19
   Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 17:01:36 -0700 (PDT)
   From: chuck whelan <chazfw_at_yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: ACT Test

MIKE :
I COULDN'T AGREE MORE-- LET US STAY AWAY FROM THE PERSONAL-- LET US EXPLORE
THE POSSIBILITIES--

Mike Bosko <mjbosko_at_jmtsystems.com> wrote:


v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}w\:*
{behavior:url(#default#VML);}.shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
Hold up just a few steps though. What is the purpose of this test? Is it
to find a better brewer? Or is it to find the better method (eg: Test1:
air, water, air/water pumping, Test2: Container size/shape, etc etc etc)?



I don’t think we are looking to find the better brewer this soon, are we? I
think if we get the technology figured out first, it will help to not
exclude a given mfg from business. We’re here to help them make better
brewers, not put them out of business by hitting them with bad publicity due
to potentially poor results; I’d rather work with a mfg who is willing to
continually improve their brewers – not one that has the best brewer NOW.
The tech is new, the idea is new – I don’t expect anyone to be the best in
this field yet. This way too, the mfg’s have a chance to use the
information from the tests to enhance or better improve their brewers. We
all win that way.



It personally think we should be testing for best containers size/shape,
pumping method waaay before testing a given manufacturer. That’s my two
cents though. Others?



Following the tests, a round robin discussion would be neat to hear what the
brewers think of the results, what the consumers thought, ways to better
test the next time, and better, for all to discuss ideas for improvement of
the machines, technology, etc.



Thanks for taking this thought seriously folks, its great!



Mike



JMT SYSTEMS CONSULTING

http://www.jmtsystems.com

info_at_jmtsystems.com / 509 968-9015



-----Original Message-----
From: Judi Stewart [mailto:js_at_olympus.net]
Sent: Sunday, August 31, 2003 6:31 AM
To: compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com
Subject: [compost_tea] ACT Test



Jeff, thanks for that good news. Now we have a standard compost.



What are the next steps?



What will be the standard recipe for the size of the machine, temperature,
etc.?



Should ingredients be determined by SFI?



Should compost amounts be determined by SFI or the manufacturer of the
brewer?



Which one of you will take the lead and put this shebang together? (I
imagine there

would be e-mails off-list in handling this.)



Who out there is willing to participate in testing? Lurkers are needed and
wanted.



How many are participating and which brewers are included?



If the brewer manufacturers are not on this list will they be contacted to
join the test?



Judi



-----Original Message-----
From: Jeff Lowenfels [mailto:jeff_at_gardener.com]
Sent: Saturday, August 30, 2003 7:27 PM
To: compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [compost_tea] Re: ACT



If SFI does the testing, we will throw in the Alaska Humus as the compost to
use......



Cheers,



Jeff

www.alaskahumus.com


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Message: 20
   Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 22:42:16 -0800
   From: "Jeff Lowenfels" <jeff_at_gardener.com>
Subject: Re: Re: ACT

AH comes from one piece of land. It is not dredged, but carefully removed.
One Processing lasts for six months or so....so all the stuff for six months
comes from the same area...

Cheers,

Jeff

[This message contained attachments]



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Message: 21
   Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 23:15:08 -0700 (PDT)
   From: Robert Norsen <bnbrew_at_yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: ACT at Western Washington fair?

BobOLator / Bitti will show at the WWSF Puyallup. Show will emphasise ACT
more than B&B. Are there other fairs or other booths at WWST where anyone
needs ACT showing? Bob

irene bensinger <irene_at_trilliumwoods.com> wrote: >county or state fair
ought to have an ACT presence, too.


Great idea. Speaking of which, will anyone being demonstrating ACT at
the Puyallup (Western Washington State Fair) next week?

irene in *parched* western WA
irene_at_trilliumwoods.com


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Message: 22
   Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2003 08:25:47 -0400
   From: chris reid <reidchris_at_earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Tea batch size and active F and B results

Jeff Lowenfels said:
We have clients who make and test tea using different batch sizes ranging
from 30 gallons to over 100 per brew. There doesn't seem to be that much
difference in their tests....This isn't scientific, of course, but our
observation using the same humus and very similar formulas.

Jeff, have you examined this collected data with an eye for comparing the
results on the basis of container size? It occurs to me that without the
data from these tests (or some of them), we are at pains to understand or
evaluate how much "not that much difference" is in results from brew sizes.
It kind of invalidates the observations about the data without presenting
validating data, if you will.

Paul's tests are all quite acceptable, and hence, one could say, there is
not "that much difference" in his results, either. If your customers have
any interest in sharing their data, I think the numbers will provoke a lot
of conversation and observation that the interpretation of the results
without the numbers simply cannot provide.

The data could put us in a position to make observations that will lead us
forward. Without data, we have not come any closer to answering the
question posed about batch size and differences in numbers, or making
observations about what other factors could be at play here, but we have had
a conversation about what we think might be occurring, which can be
misleading. I find that with my land care business, it is possible to go
down the wrong avenue quite easily when caring for a plant without getting a
soil test, or identifying the cause of a problem. I also take photographs
because my memory about what a garden looked like in June or plant condition
was in May just is not accurate. In fact, I find that I tend to color my
observations even several hours or days later. So I take a page from
Sergeant Friday's book here and encourage "just the facts".

Paul Sachs's data does not include the amount of compost he added, and that
would be useful information. Paul, do you have that information recorded
for any or all of your tests? Also, Paul, could you please tell us what
kind of containers you are using and their sizes so that we can consider
container size/shape as a variable when comparing results?

Many thanks.

Chris Reid




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Received on Mon Sep 01 2003 - 15:54:37 EDT

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