Re: Let's continue a global directory on-line...

[Permacltur@aol.com]

In a message dated 7/27/99 3:10:05 PM, hanzibra@svn.com.br writes:

<<I don't think there is a real conflict here.  I understood that the IPJ is 
not doing
the on-line  directory probably because that is a lot of unpaid work, which is
understandable. There is certainly an argument for a printed directory for 
those who
have no e-mail access, which is rapidly becomeing fewer and fewer, even  here 
in
Brazil.  But a printed directory does not make much sense to those who DO 
have e-mail
access,  as, as I pointed out, they soon become outdated  .  And I agree 
totally with
you -- they are very expensive and time-consuming to put out, and the people 
who go to
the trouble have great difficulty even getting back what they put into it,  
much less
earn money from it.>>

Marsha:
	First, you missed my main point.   It is up to IPJ, who started this, 
not you or I or April, to decide whether they want to continue it or if 
another format works better.

	Second, obviously the feel that the print sales they will lose from 
having a web page will undercut the practically of putting out the print 
edition.   So either someone pirates their work, which is so-called 
permaculturists stealing from real permaculurists, or they duplicate their 
work, which is a violation of permaculture ethics.   I am sure that if people 
want a web page badly enough to pay a royalty to IPJ every time it is used, 
the problem is solved.  I strongly suspect that we have yet another case of 
people trying to dispose of resources they didn't create and aren't willing 
to pay for themselves.   

	Frankly, if we can't get someone from IPJ in on this conversation,  I 
can see where it can produce any ethical results.   We need to know what they 
think about the matter.   And unless we have helped pay for their costs and 
labor, we have no right to any expectations whatsover about how they handle 
their resources.  

	I see this problem over and over again in the "permaculture' 
movement.  People do a great deal of work to create a resource and put it 
out.  It gets ripped off or they decide they can't afford to offer it without 
more compensation.   So they chane how it is available.   Instead of being 
grateful that it was EVER available, people get pissed off because the free 
lunch is over.   If Marsha or April or Dan have resources in excess of need, 
it is our responsibility to decide that they are surplus and to dispose of 
them.   It only our responsibility, no one elses.  Robin Hood is not a 
permaculture concept.   If IPJ has created a resource, it is their and only 
their responsibility to decide how it should be available and under what 
terms.

	Frankly, the difference between an annually updated print directory 
and a randomly updated web page is pretty small.   As one who moved about 
quite a bit for a number of years, it is my problem that people  lost track 
of me and therefore didn't buy my publications.   they don't have a RIGHT to 
know where I am and I don't have a RIGHT for someone else to tell them.   I'd 
RATHER have a print directory that I pay a fair price for than a web site.  
It is a pain in the ass to use web sites and either I have to turn on my 
computer and wait until it fires up or else interrupt what I am doing on the 
computer.  (Obviously, if it is on, I am using it for something else.)  That 
is way more disruptive to my work that reaching over and taking a directory 
from a bookshelf.   

If the ethical argument doesn't work for you, consider that you may kill the 
goose that lays the golden eggs.   If you undercut the IPJ by publishing 
their work on the web, they may well say screw it and then no one will be 
gathering that sort of information systematically.   that is about their 
least reactive option.   Rather than make enemies of them, why not find out 
what they want todo?

For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since 
1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses, 
consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and annual correspondence 
courses via email.  Copyright, 1998, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O. Box 52, 
Sparr FL 32192 USA  Internships. YankeePerm@aol.com  

We don't have time to rush.

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