Article: 225794 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Frank Alforo" Subject: rf burn Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2006 21:59:11 -0700 Message-ID: <129s61p92po1l17@corp.supernews.com> If I touch the coil in my tuner while transmitting I get a painful rf burn. But a bird can perch on my antenna wire while I transmit 100 watts and it stays there seemingly without a care in the world. How come? Article: 225795 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "SeeingEyeDogg" Subject: Re: OT: Outsourcing Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 00:00:12 -0500 Message-ID: <129s6amo0lvsl84@corp.supernews.com> References: <1149441418.531073.162560@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <9937b$44969457$d06640f9$14348@FUSE.NET> <44969559.30D72920@milestones.com> <44995516$0$11193$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> <1aOdnQMcX-kk9gTZnZ2dnUVZ_qadnZ2d@comcast.com> <129lvnf4h9st2d3@corp.supernews.com> "David" wrote > > The purpose of business is to keep people busy. > Find a job yet, Dr. DaviD? Obviously, you have no use for business. Welfare checks just too damn easy. Article: 225796 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "SeeingEyeDogg" Subject: Re: OT: Outsourcing Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 00:01:35 -0500 Message-ID: <129s6d9cim1pda5@corp.supernews.com> References: <9937b$44969457$d06640f9$14348@FUSE.NET> <44969559.30D72920@milestones.com> <44995516$0$11193$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> <1aOdnQMcX-kk9gTZnZ2dnUVZ_qadnZ2d@comcast.com> <129lvnf4h9st2d3@corp.supernews.com> <129m9ijcnshm47f@corp.supernews.com> "David" puked > > Those gated communities won't protect you from the thundering hordes > of hungry people. > Mao TseDong would be extremely proud of you. Article: 225797 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "SeeingEyeDogg" Subject: Re: OT: Outsourcing Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 00:03:23 -0500 Message-ID: <129s6glrfgfb9cb@corp.supernews.com> References: <44969559.30D72920@milestones.com> <44995516$0$11193$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> <1aOdnQMcX-kk9gTZnZ2dnUVZ_qadnZ2d@comcast.com> <129lvnf4h9st2d3@corp.supernews.com> <129m9ijcnshm47f@corp.supernews.com> <3v6o92lpq71dibjr1qlmljih4lkqvjprfb@4ax.com> "David" wrote > > When a company moves offshore they do not reduce prices to the end > users. They increase their profits. Most big companies don't even > pay income taxes because they are legally running out of a drawer in > some Carribean island. > > Eventually the middle class will be gone due to outsourcing. That > will be the end of the USA. > Thank Impeached Clintoon. Besides, what do you care, Dr. DaviD? Your welfare checks will still arrive, no? Article: 225798 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "SeeingEyeDogg" Subject: Re: OT: Outsourcing Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 00:07:07 -0500 Message-ID: <129s6nllmvmaa23@corp.supernews.com> References: <44969559.30D72920@milestones.com> <44995516$0$11193$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> <1aOdnQMcX-kk9gTZnZ2dnUVZ_qadnZ2d@comcast.com> <129lvnf4h9st2d3@corp.supernews.com> <129m9ijcnshm47f@corp.supernews.com> <129ofcclvejs22f@corp.supernews.com> <0bjo92p0h2dfqcum243lc3u1mqv49nu10h@4ax.com> "David" wrote > > During a more civilised time a company went into business to provide > jobs and make profits and to be part of a community. Nowadays > corporations are extranational, have no local ties and just milk > markets dry and move on. How would you describe your welfare stipend? Will you move on when it runs dry? > Corporations pay way less than half th cost of running governments, > even though they are the major beneficieries of what governments > provide. This is because we let them write their own rules. > What "provider benefits" may those be, Dr. David? Article: 225799 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: rf burn From: Ed References: <129s61p92po1l17@corp.supernews.com> Message-ID: Date: 25 Jun 2006 05:23:42 GMT > If I touch the coil in my tuner while transmitting I get a painful rf > burn. But a bird can perch on my antenna wire while I transmit 100 > watts and it stays there seemingly without a care in the world. How > come? although an over-simplification, the bird is not touching anything else, (grounded)... but you are. Article: 225800 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 09:34:19 -0400 From: "J. D. B." Subject: Mobile - On Glass Antenna Message-ID: <582fa$449e90df$d06640f9$18225@FUSE.NET> Anyone know of a VHF/UHF antenna that can mount on the glass and then actually stay attached to the glass? I used one several years ago and on a hot summer day, it came off. It used that sticky tape which was worthless. Duffy www.wb8nut.com Article: 225801 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Yuri Blanarovich" References: <129s61p92po1l17@corp.supernews.com> Subject: Re: rf burn Message-ID: <%Dwng.1304$Ym7.135@fe12.lga> Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 09:57:36 -0400 Two major things involved: 1. Depends where you (bird) is touching, you are prone to get more pronounced burn at the high voltage part of circuit (coil, antenna). Higher impedance point - higher voltage - easier, more burn or draw the arc. We used to light up cigarettes by keying the transmitter, touching with pencil the "hot" end of the tank coil and drawing the arc, while puffing. W8JI might argue that current/voltage is ALWAYS THE SAME along the coil, so stand by for more scientwific 'splanation :-) Anyone trying above experiment can easily see that it is easier to draw the arc at high voltage (low current) end of coil than vice versa. 2. Depends on the area/mass (capacitance) of what is touching the RF hot part of the circuit. Fat person vs. small bird would make a big difference. If one end of the person is (capacitively) grounded, the more pronounced effect. 73 -- Yuri Blanarovich, K3BU, VE3BMV "Frank Alforo" wrote in message news:129s61p92po1l17@corp.supernews.com... > If I touch the coil in my tuner while transmitting I get a painful rf > burn. > But a bird can perch on my antenna wire while I transmit 100 watts and it > stays there seemingly without a care in the world. How come? > > Article: 225802 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Bob Bob Subject: Re: rf burn References: <129s61p92po1l17@corp.supernews.com> Message-ID: Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 08:38:57 -0500 Hi Frank Although ot answering your question I thought I might relate a recent experience of my own. I remember various RF burns over the years. I never however thought I would have an issue with a 18dBm (<100mW) 11GHz TX I work on in my employment. The fault was low output and I was doing an initial feel around with my fingertips, not actually touching an active citcuit metal but looking for excess heat. I then rested my finger on a small screwhead (maybe M2.5) that held the PCB down neear the output stripline (after the MMIC) and got enough of a burn that it felt like a static discharge spike one gets from a nylon carpet. It was a whoppa and totally unexpected! I never did try to reason why the burn happened. The screw was loose about 2-3 turns so I am thinking a tuned cct of some kind with my finger as part of the dielectric! Oh an tighting the screw solved the low power problem! Cheers Bob VK2YQA Frank Alforo wrote: > If I touch the coil in my tuner while transmitting I get a painful rf burn. > But a bird can perch on my antenna wire while I transmit 100 watts and it > stays there seemingly without a care in the world. How come? > > Article: 225803 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "gravity" References: <1151196343.440223.242020@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: All Band Coax-fed Dipole ?????????? Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 09:08:21 -0500 Message-ID: <449e9959$0$16418$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> the loss is unacceptable in my opinion. the lobes off the antenna are unpredictable. an all band antenna like that is just to get on the air. i have met Mr. Rogers several times. Gravity Article: 225804 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Philo" References: <129s61p92po1l17@corp.supernews.com> Subject: Re: rf burn Message-ID: Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 14:17:25 GMT "Cecil Moore" wrote in message news:O1vng.123149$dW3.77488@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com... > Frank Alforo wrote: >> If I touch the coil in my tuner while transmitting I get a painful rf >> burn. >> But a bird can perch on my antenna wire while I transmit 100 watts and it >> stays there seemingly without a care in the world. How come? > > You could probably hang by one hand from a 20 kV power > line and be OK as long as you didn't complete a current > path to another wire or ground. > -- > 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp Beware of the gradient! Article: 225805 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Mike Subject: Re: Elimination of CW is a loss in the number of ways we can communicatewith other. Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 10:30:54 -0400 Message-ID: References: <9937b$44969457$d06640f9$14348@FUSE.NET> <44969559.30D72920@milestones.com> <129lvmgofeujhbd@corp.supernews.com> <129md8dpa74dk64@corp.supernews.com> <0b-dna0PZNH3XwbZnZ2dnUVZ_t-dnZ2d@comcast.com> <1151079492.943855.93760@b68g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <449c2766$0$79632$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> <1151098783.711872.84350@r2g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <449c765f$0$16281$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> <1151106176.529709.220710@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com> In article <1151106176.529709.220710@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com>, "an old freind" wrote: > gravity wrote: > > > and I can send sos with spark gap off a batery without knowing anymore > > > than that > > > > your engineering skill is formidable. > possibly it is certainly more valueble the the mereknowledge of Morse > code is without the level of engineering skill I have > > BTW I note myone of my double majors was Physics and a phisists can So you majored in Physics but you can't spell Physicist? Right! BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Mike Article: 225806 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "gravity" References: <9937b$44969457$d06640f9$14348@FUSE.NET> <44969559.30D72920@milestones.com> <129lvmgofeujhbd@corp.supernews.com> <129md8dpa74dk64@corp.supernews.com> <0b-dna0PZNH3XwbZnZ2dnUVZ_t-dnZ2d@comcast.com> <1151079492.943855.93760@b68g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <449c2766$0$79632$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> <1151098783.711872.84350@r2g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <449c765f$0$16281$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> <1151106176.529709.220710@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: Elimination of CW is a loss in the number of ways we can communicatewith other. Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 09:34:39 -0500 Message-ID: <449e9f84$0$16347$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> > So you majored in Physics but you can't spell Physicist? Right! > > BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! > > Mike i'd like to know his area of concentration. i was not in Physics, but studied electromagnetism. Gravity Article: 225807 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "gravity" References: <9937b$44969457$d06640f9$14348@FUSE.NET> <44969559.30D72920@milestones.com> <129lvmgofeujhbd@corp.supernews.com> <129md8dpa74dk64@corp.supernews.com> <0b-dna0PZNH3XwbZnZ2dnUVZ_t-dnZ2d@comcast.com> <1151079492.943855.93760@b68g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <449c2766$0$79632$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> <1151098783.711872.84350@r2g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <449c765f$0$16281$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> <1151106176.529709.220710@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: Elimination of CW is a loss in the number of ways we can communicatewith other. Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 09:36:49 -0500 Message-ID: <449ea007$0$16375$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> "Mike" wrote in message news:no-837487.10305425062006@news.supernews.com... > In article <1151106176.529709.220710@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com>, > "an old freind" wrote: > > > gravity wrote: > > > > and I can send sos with spark gap off a batery without knowing anymore > > > > than that > > > > > > your engineering skill is formidable. > > possibly it is certainly more valueble the the mereknowledge of Morse > > code is without the level of engineering skill I have > > > > BTW I note myone of my double majors was Physics and a phisists can > > So you majored in Physics but you can't spell Physicist? Right! > > BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! at a minimum, he would know quantum mechanics, statistical mechanics, special relativity, electromagnetics. if he was theoretical, he studied quantum field theory and general relativity. PC Technician Gravity Article: 225808 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "gravity" References: <9937b$44969457$d06640f9$14348@FUSE.NET> <44969559.30D72920@milestones.com> <129lvmgofeujhbd@corp.supernews.com> <129md8dpa74dk64@corp.supernews.com> <0b-dna0PZNH3XwbZnZ2dnUVZ_t-dnZ2d@comcast.com> <1151079492.943855.93760@b68g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <449c2766$0$79632$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> <1151098783.711872.84350@r2g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <449c765f$0$16281$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> <1151106176.529709.220710@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: Elimination of CW is a loss in the number of ways we can communicatewith other. Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 09:38:55 -0500 Message-ID: <449ea084$0$16012$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> > > BTW I note myone of my double majors was Physics and a phisists can the other major was underwater basketweaving? Gravity Article: 225809 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "gravity" References: <8563-44989859-996@storefull-3254.bay.webtv.net> <5Ubmg.226445$Fs1.191002@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <129lsrmt0sbhba3@corp.supernews.com> Subject: Re: Noise level between two ant types Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 09:58:59 -0500 Message-ID: <449ea538$0$16233$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> "Cecil Moore" wrote in message news:ZTCmg.55534$Lm5.1692@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com... > Roy Lewallen wrote: > > That's been the downfall of many a perpetual motion proponent. A > > permanent magnet produces both a field and a force. So it must be a > > source of energy, right? > > I would assume the *total* amount of energy in the magnet > is e=mc^2. your term ONLY includes nuclear potential energy. at ordinary energies, your expression is the correct approximation! Gravity Article: 225810 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Gene Fuller Subject: Re: Noise level between two ant types References: <8563-44989859-996@storefull-3254.bay.webtv.net> <6Qymg.71233$4L1.62783@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com> <_tYmg.2350$Yk.1437@trnddc06> Message-ID: <3Uxng.250469$Fs1.65982@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 15:23:43 GMT Cecil Moore wrote: > John - KD5YI wrote: >> Tiny points exist everywhere, all the time, whether you wish it or not. > > White cars exist everywhere, all the time, whether one wishes > it or not, yet not all cars are white. To maintain that all > cars are white when at least one is red is not logical. > >> Cecil, I am not going to study logic ... > > You should at least study enough of it to get by in this > world. The truth is, not all cars are white. Early in this thread "conventional accepted physics" said that corona could not exist in fairweather conditions. Now there has been a subtle change to the theme of "prove that corona occurs in more than 99.9% of all cases." Enjoy the banter, John, but don't expect to ever get Cecil to agree on anything. 73, Gene W4SZ Article: 225811 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Frank" References: <1151196343.440223.242020@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <449e9959$0$16418$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> Subject: Re: All Band Coax-fed Dipole ?????????? Message-ID: Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 15:26:13 GMT "gravity" wrote in message news:449e9959$0$16418$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net... > the loss is unacceptable in my opinion. the lobes off the antenna are > unpredictable. > > an all band antenna like that is just to get on the air. > > i have met Mr. Rogers several times. > > Gravity The antenna pattern is highly predictable using modeling software. The transmission line losses are probably not as high as Owen predicts since we do not know the value of the attenuator inside the balun. I have seen at least three antennas that had attenuators in antenna matching networks in order to meet wideband VISOR requirements. These included a 25 ft marine whip, and a military vehicular antenna. All you need is a 3 dB pad for 3:1 VISOR. Giving a power rating to a dipole is suspicious also; although voltage breakdown may be a factor. Note that it is rated at 400 WE "ROMS" -- whatever the heck that is supposed to mean. Regards, Frank Article: 225812 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Frank" References: <1151196343.440223.242020@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <449e9959$0$16418$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> Subject: Re: All Band Coax-fed Dipole ?????????? Message-ID: Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 15:29:30 GMT Sorry I must have clicked spell check for VSWR not "VISOR"! Also "W" for "WE" and "RMS" for "ROMS". Frank "Frank" wrote in message news:pWxng.91970$S61.1023@edtnps90... > "gravity" wrote in message > news:449e9959$0$16418$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net... >> the loss is unacceptable in my opinion. the lobes off the antenna are >> unpredictable. >> >> an all band antenna like that is just to get on the air. >> >> i have met Mr. Rogers several times. >> >> Gravity > > The antenna pattern is highly predictable using modeling software. > The transmission line losses are probably not as high as Owen predicts > since we do not know the value of the attenuator inside the balun. > I have seen at least three antennas that had attenuators in antenna > matching > networks in order to meet wideband VISOR requirements. These included > a 25 ft marine whip, and a military vehicular antenna. All you need is a > 3 dB pad for 3:1 VISOR. > > Giving a power rating to a dipole is suspicious also; although voltage > breakdown may be a factor. Note that it is rated at 400 WE "ROMS" > -- whatever the heck that is supposed to mean. > > Regards, > > Frank > > > Article: 225813 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "gravity" References: <1151196343.440223.242020@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <449e9959$0$16418$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> Subject: Re: All Band Coax-fed Dipole ?????????? Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 10:36:34 -0500 Message-ID: <449eae09$0$79689$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> > The antenna pattern is highly predictable using modeling software. he would have to model the antenna, then figure out what beam headings he desires, then find supports for the antenna. this is IMPOSSIBLE on most sububan lots. > The transmission line losses are probably not as high as Owen predicts > since we do not know the value of the attenuator inside the balun. he might as well use a dummy load. Gravity Article: 225814 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "gravity" References: <1151196343.440223.242020@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <449e9959$0$16418$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> Subject: Re: All Band Coax-fed Dipole ?????????? Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 10:43:31 -0500 Message-ID: <449eafaa$0$16418$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> > The antenna pattern is highly predictable using modeling software. oh it's predictable all right, however it's often USELESS. it's a compromise antenna relative to decent dipoles. Gravity Article: 225815 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "gravity" References: <1151196343.440223.242020@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: All Band Coax-fed Dipole ?????????? Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 10:50:45 -0500 Message-ID: <449eb15c$0$76118$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> PHP! http://www.commparts.com/catalog/images/products/8010ABD.gif i'm too lazy to provide more links. Gravity Article: 225816 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "gravity" References: <1151196343.440223.242020@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <449e9959$0$16418$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> Subject: Re: All Band Coax-fed Dipole ?????????? Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 10:54:57 -0500 Message-ID: <449eb259$0$11193$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> >These included > a 25 ft marine whip, and a military vehicular antenna. All you need is a > 3 dB pad for 3:1 VISOR. you can burn up 6 dB in an antenuator and RG 58. and that's if the SWR is 1 to 1. if someone has interest in 28 mhz, just put up a rotatable dipole too. Gravity Article: 225817 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "gravity" References: <1151196343.440223.242020@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <449e9959$0$16418$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> Subject: Re: All Band Coax-fed Dipole ?????????? Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 10:57:34 -0500 Message-ID: <449eb2f5$0$14626$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> > Giving a power rating to a dipole is suspicious also; although voltage > breakdown may be a factor. Note that it is rated at 400 WE "ROMS" > -- whatever the heck that is supposed to mean. 400 w RMS. 750 w peak. Gravity Article: 225818 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "gravity" References: <1151196343.440223.242020@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <449e9959$0$16418$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> Subject: Re: All Band Coax-fed Dipole ?????????? Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 11:00:14 -0500 Message-ID: <449eb396$0$16468$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> check out their Windom. not bad. http://www.eham.net/reviews/detail/5840 Gravity Article: 225819 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "gravity" References: <1151196343.440223.242020@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <449e9959$0$16418$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> Subject: Re: All Band Coax-fed Dipole ?????????? Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 11:03:01 -0500 Message-ID: <449eb43d$0$79459$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> > The antenna pattern is highly predictable using modeling software. > The transmission line losses are probably not as high as Owen predicts > since we do not know the value of the attenuator inside the balun. > I have seen at least three antennas that had attenuators in antenna matching > networks in order to meet wideband VISOR requirements. These included > a 25 ft marine whip, and a military vehicular antenna. All you need is a > 3 dB pad for 3:1 VISOR. ya know, an auto tuner is a fun toy. mine is a Yaesu, and when i change frequencies it remembers the values and coax. highly recommended but more expensive than using a decent antenna. Gravity Article: 225820 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "gravity" References: <1151196343.440223.242020@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <449e9959$0$16418$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> Subject: Re: All Band Coax-fed Dipole ?????????? Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 11:04:13 -0500 Message-ID: <449eb485$0$16322$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> "Frank" wrote in message news:uZxng.91997$S61.76029@edtnps90... > Sorry I must have clicked spell check for VSWR not "VISOR"! Also > "W" for "WE" and "RMS" for "ROMS". i googled VISOR thinking it was some cool military antenna. Gravity Article: 225821 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "gravity" References: <8563-44989859-996@storefull-3254.bay.webtv.net> <6Qymg.71233$4L1.62783@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com> <_tYmg.2350$Yk.1437@trnddc06> <3Uxng.250469$Fs1.65982@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: Noise level between two ant types Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 11:07:43 -0500 Message-ID: <449eb55a$0$14238$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> > >> Cecil, I am not going to study logic ... most Usenet discussions are very low quality due to informal fallacies. engineers are smart in physics, but can't debate. Gravity Article: 225822 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "gravity" References: <129lvmgofeujhbd@corp.supernews.com> <129md8dpa74dk64@corp.supernews.com> <0b-dna0PZNH3XwbZnZ2dnUVZ_t-dnZ2d@comcast.com> <1151079492.943855.93760@b68g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <449c2766$0$79632$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> <1151098783.711872.84350@r2g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <449c765f$0$16281$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> <1151106176.529709.220710@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com> <449ea084$0$16012$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> <1151249888.431008.162160@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: Elimination of CW is a loss in the number of ways we can communicatewith other. Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 11:11:27 -0500 Message-ID: <449eb637$0$11086$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> > Msater degrees In Geophysics and Byzatine studies, the sadly is the > degree I have found most uslefull over the years working with > sometimes for sometimes just around the Us govt that's quite impressive, must have cost you $100,000. you should not stoop to arguing with uneducated people. --... ...-- Gravity Article: 225823 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "gravity" References: <129lvmgofeujhbd@corp.supernews.com> <129md8dpa74dk64@corp.supernews.com> <0b-dna0PZNH3XwbZnZ2dnUVZ_t-dnZ2d@comcast.com> <1151079492.943855.93760@b68g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <449c2766$0$79632$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> <1151098783.711872.84350@r2g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <449c765f$0$16281$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> <1151106176.529709.220710@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com> <449ea084$0$16012$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> <1151249888.431008.162160@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com> <1151252089.872547.50200@b68g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: Elimination of CW is a loss in the number of ways we can communicatewith other. Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 11:18:42 -0500 Message-ID: <449eb7ea$0$79453$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> > More Markie Bullshit, the only thing you were working as in the > government was a janitor! > janitors at the NSA have clearance. they probably get paid well. Gravity Article: 225824 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "gravity" References: <129lvmgofeujhbd@corp.supernews.com> <129md8dpa74dk64@corp.supernews.com> <0b-dna0PZNH3XwbZnZ2dnUVZ_t-dnZ2d@comcast.com> <1151079492.943855.93760@b68g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <449c2766$0$79632$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> <1151098783.711872.84350@r2g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <449c765f$0$16281$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> <1151106176.529709.220710@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com> <449ea084$0$16012$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> <1151249888.431008.162160@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com> <1151252089.872547.50200@b68g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: Elimination of CW is a loss in the number of ways we can communicatewith other. Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 11:20:10 -0500 Message-ID: <449eb842$0$76118$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> > You can't even spell "Master's", much less have even thought about > completing the coursework requirements it is suspicious since he misspelled Byzantine. i sometimes misspell technical terms, but i can still spell "engineering". Gravity Article: 225825 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: Noise level between two ant types References: <8563-44989859-996@storefull-3254.bay.webtv.net> <6Qymg.71233$4L1.62783@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com> <_tYmg.2350$Yk.1437@trnddc06> <3Uxng.250469$Fs1.65982@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 16:24:56 GMT Gene Fuller wrote: > Early in this thread "conventional accepted physics" said that corona > could not exist in fairweather conditions. Actually, I said my references indicated that, but that's past history. I later fine-tuned that concept to "Corona cannot exist without an extra energy source besides the fairweather current." Remember - moving airplanes, etc? Please try to keep up. When I am wrong, I immediately correct my error. That's the scientific method in action. My assertion is that charged particle noise can exist without corona and that is most probably under fairweather conditions. I suggest that you and others review the logical difference between exclusive statements and inclusive statements. Exclusive statement: Charged particle noise cannot exist without corona. A mostly meaningless statement since it is virtually impossible to prove. Your side has been asserting these types of exclusive statements. Inclusive statement: Charged particle noise can exist without corona. Easy to prove since it only requires one example. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp Article: 225826 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: Noise level between two ant types References: <6Qymg.71233$4L1.62783@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com> <_tYmg.2350$Yk.1437@trnddc06> <3Uxng.250469$Fs1.65982@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <449eb55a$0$14238$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> Message-ID: Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 16:28:54 GMT gravity wrote: >>>> Cecil, I am not going to study logic ... > > most Usenet discussions are very low quality due to informal fallacies. > engineers are smart in physics, but can't debate. Especially when they don't understand the difference between "exclusive" and "inclusive". -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp Article: 225827 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "gravity" References: <129md8dpa74dk64@corp.supernews.com> <0b-dna0PZNH3XwbZnZ2dnUVZ_t-dnZ2d@comcast.com> <1151079492.943855.93760@b68g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <449c2766$0$79632$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> <1151098783.711872.84350@r2g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <449c765f$0$16281$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> <1151106176.529709.220710@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com> <449ea084$0$16012$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> <1151249888.431008.162160@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com> <1151252089.872547.50200@b68g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <449eb7ea$0$79453$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> <1151252829.001670.88470@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: Elimination of CW is a loss in the number of ways we can communicatewith other. Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 11:35:04 -0500 Message-ID: <449ebbc3$0$15765$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> rare photo of the secretive "old friend". http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/images/0628-01.jpg Article: 225828 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "David G. Nagel" Subject: Re: Mobile - On Glass Antenna Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 12:00:57 -0500 Message-ID: <129tgaacqdkpa3f@corp.supernews.com> References: <582fa$449e90df$d06640f9$18225@FUSE.NET> J. D. B. wrote: > Anyone know of a VHF/UHF antenna that can mount on the glass and then > actually stay attached to the glass? I used one several years ago and > on a hot summer day, it came off. It used that sticky tape which was > worthless. > > Duffy > www.wb8nut.com Try super glue. Dave WD9BDZ Article: 225829 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Lloyd the loser" References: <129md8dpa74dk64@corp.supernews.com> <0b-dna0PZNH3XwbZnZ2dnUVZ_t-dnZ2d@comcast.com> <1151079492.943855.93760@b68g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <449c2766$0$79632$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> <1151098783.711872.84350@r2g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <449c765f$0$16281$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> <1151106176.529709.220710@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com> <449ea084$0$16012$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> <1151249888.431008.162160@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com> <1151252089.872547.50200@b68g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <449eb7ea$0$79453$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> <1151252829.001670.88470@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com> <449ebbc3$0$15765$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> Subject: Re: a pic of the tard Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 13:03:50 -0400 Message-ID: <449eb4ac$0$9932$88260bb3@free.teranews.com> A real pic of cock gobbler markie tard right before he swaps his she-male wife with a transvestite...... http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/9794/markmorgan4ha.jpg , "gravity" wrote in message news:449ebbc3$0$15765$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net... > rare photo of the secretive "old friend". > > http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/images/0628-01.jpg > > -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com Article: 225830 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: John - KD5YI Subject: Re: Noise level between two ant types References: <8563-44989859-996@storefull-3254.bay.webtv.net> <6Qymg.71233$4L1.62783@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com> <_tYmg.2350$Yk.1437@trnddc06> <3Uxng.250469$Fs1.65982@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 17:22:22 GMT Gene Fuller wrote: > > Enjoy the banter, John, but don't expect to ever get Cecil to agree on > anything. > > 73, > Gene > W4SZ Well, thanks, Gene, but I don't really enjoy debating. He will believe whatever he wants, whether it is right or wrong. The world will not be moved by it in either case. 73, John Article: 225831 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: Noise level between two ant types References: <6Qymg.71233$4L1.62783@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com> <_tYmg.2350$Yk.1437@trnddc06> <3Uxng.250469$Fs1.65982@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 17:54:35 GMT John - KD5YI wrote: > He will believe > whatever he wants, whether it is right or wrong. I will believe what the technical evidence indicates. But who knows, there may actually be a Corona God up there somewhere in control of all antenna noise. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp Article: 225832 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "J. Kragh" References: <582fa$449e90df$d06640f9$18225@FUSE.NET> Subject: Re: Mobile - On Glass Antenna Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 22:22:16 +0200 Message-ID: <449ef07b$0$90478$edfadb0f@dread11.news.tele.dk> Hi In Europe the outside parts are normally glued to the glass using a silicone adhesive.The sticky tape is only used on the inside. I have succesfully remounted 2 metre antennas using silicone adhesive. Use an adhesive intended for wet environments (e.g. intended for caulking bathrooms or aquariums). vy 73 Joergen, OZ7TA "J. D. B." skrev i en meddelelse news:582fa$449e90df$d06640f9$18225@FUSE.NET... > Anyone know of a VHF/UHF antenna that can mount on the glass and then > actually stay attached to the glass? I used one several years ago and on > a hot summer day, it came off. It used that sticky tape which was > worthless. > > Duffy > www.wb8nut.com Article: 225833 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: Mobile - On Glass Antenna References: <582fa$449e90df$d06640f9$18225@FUSE.NET> <449ef07b$0$90478$edfadb0f@dread11.news.tele.dk> Message-ID: Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 21:29:49 GMT J. Kragh wrote: > Use an adhesive intended for wet environments I'll bet the adhesive used for repairing wetsuits would work well. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp Article: 225834 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: rf burn References: <129s61p92po1l17@corp.supernews.com> <4cmdnSdddae3aAPZRVnyhw@bt.com> Message-ID: Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 21:36:17 GMT Reg Edwards wrote: > It's the current which matters. > > The bird has a capacitance to the rest of the world which depends on > its size. The current which flows up the bird's legs is the voltage on > the antenna divided by the capacitive reactance of the bird's body. > For small birds the capacitance is only a few picofarads and so the > current is extremely small. The bird continues to sing its happy > song. I did surprise an Owl one night sitting astride my Inv-V center insulator. He was apparently touching both dipole wires when I went key down with 100 watts. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp Article: 225835 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Owen Duffy Subject: Re: All Band Coax-fed Dipole ?????????? Message-ID: References: <1151196343.440223.242020@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <449e9959$0$16418$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 22:10:45 GMT On Sun, 25 Jun 2006 15:26:13 GMT, "Frank" wrote: >The antenna pattern is highly predictable using modeling software. >The transmission line losses are probably not as high as Owen predicts >since we do not know the value of the attenuator inside the balun. That implies there is an attenuator inside the balun. I don't believe we actually have any information with which to better understand the balun. Frank, in the absence of information on the balun, I did model it as ideal, and that the load at the load end of the coax was 4200 ohms. That is probably a reasonable assumption. A real balun would not perfectly isolate the transmission line from drive so influencing feed point impedance , and would probably transform the real feed point impedance to something different to 4200 ohms, and so the line losses could be different (better or worse). If the balun was built with substantial loss, it would tend to reduce line losses, and yes, 3dB of loss (which would affect performance on all bands), would improve the performance on 7MHz (though that balun doesn't look like it contains a 200W dissipater). All in all, the configuration, although used widely, can be expected to perform poorly. IMHO tomk3mov@yahoo.com was right in being suspicious of the product claims. Owen -- Article: 225836 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "gravity" References: <1151196343.440223.242020@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <449e9959$0$16418$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> Subject: Re: All Band Coax-fed Dipole ?????????? Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 17:10:02 -0500 Message-ID: <449f0a48$0$64670$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> > Frank, in the absence of information on the balun, I did model it as > ideal, and that the load at the load end of the coax was 4200 ohms. > That is probably a reasonable assumption. i dunno it's a 1:1 Balun. i might email them, cause threads like this are pure profit for them. Gravity Article: 225837 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Butch Magee Subject: Re: rf burn Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 17:50:14 -0500 Message-ID: <129u4p8hqmeok3e@corp.supernews.com> References: <129s61p92po1l17@corp.supernews.com> <84xng.2094$ii.0@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net> Ralph Mowery wrote: > "Cecil Moore" wrote in message > news:O1vng.123149$dW3.77488@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com... > >>Frank Alforo wrote: >> >>>If I touch the coil in my tuner while transmitting I get a painful rf >>>burn. >>>But a bird can perch on my antenna wire while I transmit 100 watts and it >>>stays there seemingly without a care in the world. How come? >> >>You could probably hang by one hand from a 20 kV power >>line and be OK as long as you didn't complete a current >>path to another wire or ground. >>-- >>73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp > > > You should have seen the TV educational channel where in some countries they > have a basket type trolley that men are put in and hung by helicopter on the > multi megavolt lines. They do wear some kind of suit that is conductive so > the charge will not affect their body so much. > > They ;do that in this country. Mesh suit of some metal, can't remember which metal but not important as long as it's conductive I guess. Great job I bet, big bucks.... Article: 225838 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "gravity" References: <1151277657.955753.186840@y41g2000cwy.googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: Need help on How to test transmission line Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 18:59:08 -0500 Message-ID: <449f23db$0$79453$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> "Dave" wrote in message news:f8qdnZGn9v9SggLZnZ2dnUVZ_oidnZ2d@comcast.com... > sbusono@gmail.com wrote: > > > Hi fellow amateurs, > > I am using 746Pro for 6M with direct coax to my 5 el antenna. I used to > > get 1:1 SWR but recently, the SWR runs a little over 1:2 and my output > > drops to 30W.When stations in FN20 were working EU, I could hear > > nothing. My signal can still be received because I was able to make > > contacts despite 1:2 SWR as far as FM5AA. But I know something is wrong > > with the line or the antenna. I checked all the connections and they > > seemed to be ok. > > > > Can someone help by directing me to a source where I can read about > > troubleshooting transmission line? Or can someone who has experience in > > this give me step by step instruction on how to diagnose the problem, > > e.g., is it the PL 259 at the rig side, or the antenna side, or > > somewhere along the line, or is it the antenna altogether. I have an > > ohm meter and a small swr/pwr meter box. > > Thanks in advance. > > > > 73, steve > > Steve, If you can locate someone who owns an antenna analyzer you should be able > to analyze your problem. I use the MFJ 259B. > > Someone in your local radio club should own one, antenna analyzer, or have > access to one. > > BTW, a 2:1 VSWR is not BAD. It indicates that the antenna is receiving 90% of > the available power. However, ICOMs are designed to power down on low to > moderate VSWR. Note: I run about 30:1 on 75 meters. > what about coax losses at that VSWR? Article: 225839 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Owen Duffy Subject: Re: All Band Coax-fed Dipole ?????????? Message-ID: References: <1151196343.440223.242020@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 00:08:48 GMT On Sat, 24 Jun 2006 22:19:43 -0400, Dave wrote: >I get product not found!! > >Is the URL complete? Googling indicates that several domains are directed to this eCommerce website, including jeanshobbies.com, amateurradio.org, buxomm.com, commparts.com, packetradio.com. Did someone say this guy is an Elmer? Looks like he runs a business with a lot of front doors. Owen -- Article: 225840 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Sal M. Onella" References: <129s61p92po1l17@corp.supernews.com> Subject: Re: rf burn Message-ID: Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 17:37:05 -0700 "Dave" wrote in message news:kJKdnV2QOYIJ_wPZnZ2dnUVZ_qCdnZ2d@crocker.com... > even if you aren't touching something you have a much larger surface area to > act as a capacitive path to ground for the rf. < snip > Yes. One of the standard tools used during RADHAZ inspectiions at RF transmitters sites is an RF Burn Gun. (It's shaped like a gun for convenience of holding and use.) It measures the RF potential on metallic structures near a transmit antenna and the tech is part of the circuit, coupling to ground. Current limiting in the RF Burn Gun keeps the tech from harm while he reads the potential off a meter in the "gun." It strikes me that the measurement accuracy varies with operating frequency and size of the tech (via collective X-sub-C). With my big butt and short legs, I might offer more coupling to ground than you scrawny people. Article: 225841 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Frank's" References: <1151196343.440223.242020@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <449e9959$0$16418$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> Subject: Re: All Band Coax-fed Dipole ?????????? Message-ID: <9aGng.79980$I61.26846@clgrps13> Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 00:49:09 GMT "Owen Duffy" wrote in message news:or0u921vltnpqfm7bpc2m4dif174h9ui1u@4ax.com... > On Sun, 25 Jun 2006 15:26:13 GMT, "Frank" > wrote: > > >>The antenna pattern is highly predictable using modeling software. >>The transmission line losses are probably not as high as Owen predicts >>since we do not know the value of the attenuator inside the balun. > > That implies there is an attenuator inside the balun. I don't believe > we actually have any information with which to better understand the > balun. > > Frank, in the absence of information on the balun, I did model it as > ideal, and that the load at the load end of the coax was 4200 ohms. > That is probably a reasonable assumption. > > A real balun would not perfectly isolate the transmission line from > drive so influencing feed point impedance , and would probably > transform the real feed point impedance to something different to 4200 > ohms, and so the line losses could be different (better or worse). > > If the balun was built with substantial loss, it would tend to reduce > line losses, and yes, 3dB of loss (which would affect performance on > all bands), would improve the performance on 7MHz (though that balun > doesn't look like it contains a 200W dissipater). > > All in all, the configuration, although used widely, can be expected > to perform poorly. IMHO tomk3mov@yahoo.com was right in being > suspicious of the product claims. > > Owen I am inclined to agree with you Owen. I was being a little facetious about the load. I also noticed there is not a single specification on the web site, except for power ratings. (Including the irritating term "RMS power"). Incidentally 750 W into 4200 ohms represents 2.5 kV peak. If the balun is a real transformer it must be well insulated. Frank Article: 225842 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "gravity" References: <1151196343.440223.242020@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: All Band Coax-fed Dipole ?????????? Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 19:59:10 -0500 Message-ID: <449f31ef$0$16401$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> "Owen Duffy" wrote in message news:ar8u92d1j4oklj6ulp57b545hss5a9bu5h@4ax.com... > On Sat, 24 Jun 2006 22:19:43 -0400, Dave wrote: > > >I get product not found!! > > > >Is the URL complete? > > Googling indicates that several domains are directed to this eCommerce > website, including jeanshobbies.com, amateurradio.org, buxomm.com, > commparts.com, packetradio.com. > > Did someone say this guy is an Elmer? Looks like he runs a business > with a lot of front doors. it appears that buxcomm is owned or operated by K4ABT. i have talked to him several times. he has a lot of history in the ham community. Gravity Article: 225843 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "gravity" References: <1151196343.440223.242020@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: All Band Coax-fed Dipole ?????????? Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 19:59:38 -0500 Message-ID: <449f320a$0$11186$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> > >I get product not found!! > > > >Is the URL complete? it uses PHP and a link won't work. Gravity Article: 225844 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Dale Parfitt" References: <582fa$449e90df$d06640f9$18225@FUSE.NET> <129tgaacqdkpa3f@corp.supernews.com> Subject: Re: Mobile - On Glass Antenna Message-ID: Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 01:05:46 GMT "David G. Nagel" wrote in message news:129tgaacqdkpa3f@corp.supernews.com... > J. D. B. wrote: >> Anyone know of a VHF/UHF antenna that can mount on the glass and then >> actually stay attached to the glass? I used one several years ago and on >> a hot summer day, it came off. It used that sticky tape which was >> worthless. >> >> Duffy >> www.wb8nut.com > > > Try super glue. > > Dave WD9BDZ Super Glue will not stand up outdoors- maybe 2 weeks- but the real problem is that it is so rigid that it will likely crack windshield glass ( not rear window) because the rate of expansion/contraction of the mounting foot is different for that of the windshield glass. The makers of the rear view mirror button and cement went to a great deal of trouble to ensure that the scintered metal foot and the anaerobic cement both had the same coefficient of expansion as the windshield glass. Dale W4OP Article: 225845 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Sal M. Onella" References: <129lvmgofeujhbd@corp.supernews.com> <129md8dpa74dk64@corp.supernews.com> <0b-dna0PZNH3XwbZnZ2dnUVZ_t-dnZ2d@comcast.com> <1151079492.943855.93760@b68g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <449c2766$0$79632$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> <1151098783.711872.84350@r2g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <449c765f$0$16281$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> <1151106176.529709.220710@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com> <449ea084$0$16012$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> <1151249888.431008.162160@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com> <1151252089.872547.50200@b68g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <449eb7ea$0$79453$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> Subject: Re: Elimination of CW is a loss in the number of ways we can communicatewith other. Message-ID: <5tGng.626$RD.358@fed1read08> Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 18:09:21 -0700 "gravity" wrote in message news:449eb7ea$0$79453$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net... > > > More Markie Bullshit, the only thing you were working as in the > > government was a janitor! > > > > janitors at the NSA have clearance. > > they probably get paid well. Of all the techie things I could relate to, here's something I never thought would come up: I WAS a janitor at NSA. I was stationed there 1970-1972 as a Sailor and during my last 8 months, I worked as a janitor after hours to make enough money for the down payment on my first house. All the janitors needed to be cleared, which made us military folks shoo-ins for these jobs. The pay was OK for your average part time job. Nothing special, but I was happy for the $1800 I banked in less than a year. (5% of 33,000 used to get a family into a house. Not today.) My first wife still has that house and it's worth $700,000. Article: 225846 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: John - KD5YI Subject: Re: i want to know the length of a 6m dipole References: <9tzlg.24$JV6.20@fe11.lga> <4496df7b$0$80513$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> <129egmv2dvvpa10@corp.supernews.com> <084f92db31l2g9prrnf9a48dkg5pnpc3f0@4ax.com> Message-ID: Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 02:17:49 GMT Buck wrote: > On Mon, 19 Jun 2006 19:35:37 -0500, Butch Magee > wrote: > > >>gravity wrote: > > >>>the general rule is L = 234/F, where F is the frequency in megahertz, and L >>>is the length of a quarter wave element in feet. >>> >>>this is a strange troll, can't you come up with something better? >>> >>>Gravity >>> >>> >> >>The formula, which I learned as a novice, I think, is length is=468/f(in >>mHz) > > > > Read the text carefully, he is talking about each of the two 1/4 wave > elements that make up a half wave dipole. > > BTW, what is 468/2 ??? According to my calculator, it is 234. Article: 225847 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Owen Duffy Subject: Re: All Band Coax-fed Dipole ?????????? Message-ID: References: <1151196343.440223.242020@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <449e9959$0$16418$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> <9aGng.79980$I61.26846@clgrps13> Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 03:13:25 GMT On Mon, 26 Jun 2006 00:49:09 GMT, "Frank's" wrote: >"RMS power"). Incidentally 750 W into 4200 ohms represents >2.5 kV peak. If the balun is a real transformer it must be well >insulated. ... and if it is a "voltage balun", a much higher flux level (~1300%) than it would at 50 ohms. Considering the information given in the product data, it leaves one with doubts about the suitability of the recommended coax and the supplied balun, and the performance of the entire system. Owen -- Article: 225848 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Sal M. Onella" References: <129lvmgofeujhbd@corp.supernews.com> <129md8dpa74dk64@corp.supernews.com> <0b-dna0PZNH3XwbZnZ2dnUVZ_t-dnZ2d@comcast.com> <1151079492.943855.93760@b68g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <449c2766$0$79632$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> <1151098783.711872.84350@r2g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <449c765f$0$16281$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> <1151106176.529709.220710@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com> <449ea084$0$16012$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> <1151249888.431008.162160@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com> <1151252089.872547.50200@b68g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <449eb7ea$0$79453$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> <5tGng.626$RD.358@fed1read08> Subject: Re: Elimination of CW is a loss in the number of ways we can communicatewith other. Message-ID: <3vIng.636$RD.54@fed1read08> Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 20:27:59 -0700 "Dave" wrote in message news:OKmdnUIgWvtgpgLZnZ2dnUVZ_sadnZ2d@comcast.com... > What's she worth?? Try offering two outfielders and a pitcher to be named later :-) Seriously, other than her half of the house (her current hubby got on the deed a few years ago for a re-fi), almost nothing. I divorced her in 1981 and traded away my half of the equity for no claim by her on my future earnings (meaning no spousal support and no splitting of my Navy retirement). She took a second to buy a business, which supported her, although she did not run it well and she took a loss when she sold it. I doubt she ever saved a penny. She draws a Social Security disability pension for several ailments, real or imagined. I fared better ;-) > > Sal M. Onella wrote: > < snip > > > > > My first wife still has that house and it's worth $700,000. > > > > > Article: 225849 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: KC1DI Subject: Re: All Band Coax-fed Dipole ?????????? Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 06:49:01 -0400 Message-ID: References: <1151196343.440223.242020@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> tomk3mov@yahoo.com wrote: > The BuxComm Antenna Company sells what it calls an All Band Coax-fed > Dipole. > > http://www.commparts.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=9&products_id=114318&osCsid=a84f7ccef1c8c9d59effad91005875fb > > > It consists of 135 ft. of wire, a balun at the center feed point, and > the RG 8X coax transmission line. I don't claim to know a whole lot > about antennas, but this configuration is contrary to everything that I > have read about feeding mutiband antennas. When I wrote to the company > with a question about this, I received a response from K4ABT, Buck > Rogers himself. He attached to his note a section from the ARRL Antenna > Book, which seems to indicate that coax should not be used with this > type of antenna if one wants to use it as a multibander. I have a lot > of respect for Buck, based on his years of Elmering a lot of us through > his articles. But this one has me stumped. Any input will be > appreciated. > My opinion would be that you'd be much better off if you want a single wire antenna fed with coax going with one of the off center fed models. the SWR is much better on many bands than the center fed model. But if you must have a center fed model then you'll need to feed it with open wire line of some sort .. coax just is not going to perform well for you in a single wire all band dublet. the Losses on most bands are not good. 73 Dave kc1di Article: 225850 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: Noise level between two ant types References: <8563-44989859-996@storefull-3254.bay.webtv.net> <6Qymg.71233$4L1.62783@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com> <_tYmg.2350$Yk.1437@trnddc06> <3Uxng.250469$Fs1.65982@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 13:05:46 GMT Gene Fuller wrote: > Early in this thread "conventional accepted physics" said that corona > could not exist in fairweather conditions. I just waded back through my postings. A day or two after making that statement, I added the context in which that statement was made. (That happened days ago). Conventional accepted physics says that corona cannot exist in fairweather conditions without an additional source of energy. When I asked that the source of corona energy be identified, I believe it was you who said, "Who cares?". So I ask again. Given fairweather conditions, what is the source of energy for corona? In matters of politics, one follows the money. In matters of physics, one follows the energy. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp Article: 225851 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: richardharrison@webtv.net (Richard Harrison) Subject: Re: rf burn Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 11:02:46 -0500 Message-ID: <21487-44A00526-9@storefull-3258.bay.webtv.net> References: <129s61p92po1l17@corp.supernews.com> Frank Alforo wrote: "But a bird can perch on my antenna wire while I transmit 100 watts and it stays there seemingly without a care in the world." Frank isn`t using enough power. I worked in a shortwave broadcasting plant filled with 50 KW and 100 KW DSB fully modulated transmitters. Our relatively flat transmission lines were of the 2-wire unshielded 600-ohm variety. These lines must have attracted countless tired migratory birds to alight or try to alight. When a bird would try to grasp a wire, it would instantly be consumed in a puff of smoke and steam. No carcass fell to the earth. Poof! it was gone. Many times their claws were left behind gripping the wire leaving us a record of the bird`s visit. Many wires were covered with bird claws. RF can kill more birds than cats can. Best regards, Richard Harrison, KB5WZI Article: 225852 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "gravity" References: <1151277657.955753.186840@y41g2000cwy.googlegroups.com> <449f23db$0$79453$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> Subject: Re: Need help on How to test transmission line Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 12:57:08 -0500 Message-ID: <44a02082$0$16233$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> if the OP has no antenna or coax problems, he might invest in an antenna tuner. http://www.ocarc.ca/coax.htm example follows. 100 watt transmitter 30 watts out 50 feet Belden 9913 2:1 SWR 26 watts to antenna Gravity Article: 225853 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "gravity" References: <1151277657.955753.186840@y41g2000cwy.googlegroups.com> <449f23db$0$79453$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> Subject: Re: Need help on How to test transmission line Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 12:58:43 -0500 Message-ID: <44a020e2$0$15916$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> > What coax?? I didn't say I used coax. I said I run about 30:1 VSWR on 75 meters. > > I use 600 ohm open wire tuned feeders. much better than coax. i had no easy way to run twin lead through my window, so i used RG 58. my losses were bad. Gravity Article: 225854 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "gravity" References: <1151277657.955753.186840@y41g2000cwy.googlegroups.com> <449f23db$0$79453$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> Subject: Re: Need help on How to test transmission line Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 12:59:20 -0500 Message-ID: <44a02106$0$15591$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> >I've been a ham since before coax became > commonly used. are you bragging about being old? ;-) Gravity Article: 225855 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Bob Bob Subject: Re: rf burn References: <129s61p92po1l17@corp.supernews.com> <21487-44A00526-9@storefull-3258.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 13:27:28 -0500 Okay silly question Richard Did the birdless claws have any noticable effect on the match/tuning of the antenna? Cheers Bob Richard Harrison wrote: > steam. No carcass fell to the earth. Poof! it was gone. Many times their > claws were left behind gripping the wire leaving us a record of the > bird`s visit. Many wires were covered with bird claws. RF can kill more > birds than cats can. Article: 225856 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Jim Kelley Subject: Re: Noise level between two ant types Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 11:45:42 -0700 Message-ID: References: <6Qymg.71233$4L1.62783@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com> <_tYmg.2350$Yk.1437@trnddc06> <449c78d7$0$16391$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> <1151114458.462887.105550@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <0smum3-l6l.ln1@mail.specsol.com> <129qn4gq8iod1f@corp.supernews.com> <449dacd1$0$15591$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> Cecil Moore wrote: > gravity wrote: > >> All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, >> it is >> violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident. > > > What is being missed is that charged particle RF noise > is already conventional-wisdom/mainstream-physics. True. The question being asked is "How could it be possible to hear such tiny charges impacting an antenna?" It is just as reasonable to ask how could it be possible to detect the presence of tiny electromagnetically induced currents on an antenna. But in consideration of the latter, it should be apparent that if the magnitude of the randomly fluctuating ion current approaches that of a small electromagnetic current it would be impossible not to detect it. 73, ac6xg Article: 225857 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Jim - NN7K Subject: Re: Mobile - On Glass Antenna References: <582fa$449e90df$d06640f9$18225@FUSE.NET> <449ef07b$0$90478$edfadb0f@dread11.news.tele.dk> Message-ID: Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 20:03:34 GMT Had mine fall off, too, used Rear View Mirror Glue on mine, and no problem since! similar to super glue--auto parts houses carry it. Jim NN7K Cecil Moore wrote: > J. Kragh wrote: > >> Use an adhesive intended for wet environments > > > I'll bet the adhesive used for repairing wetsuits > would work well. Article: 225858 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "gravity" References: <1151277657.955753.186840@y41g2000cwy.googlegroups.com> <449f23db$0$79453$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> <44a020e2$0$15916$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> Subject: Re: Need help on How to test transmission line Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 15:10:08 -0500 Message-ID: <44a03faf$0$16470$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> "Cecil Moore" wrote in message news:wqVng.123537$dW3.57941@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com... > gravity wrote: > > i had no easy way to run twin lead through my window, so i used RG 58. my > > losses were bad. > > At any hardware store, you can buy a drill that will put > a hole through glass. That's pretty easy. i considered a replacement (acrylic) pane for the window, but i couldn't get permission for that. the joys of renting. Gravity Article: 225859 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Steve N." Subject: Re: Elimination of CW is a loss in the number of ways we can communicatewith other. Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 15:54:40 -0500 Message-ID: References: <9e847$4482def6$d06640f9$28274@FUSE.NET> <1149441418.531073.162560@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <9937b$44969457$d06640f9$14348@FUSE.NET> <44969559.30D72920@milestones.com> "Sal M. Onella" wrote in message news:Qt3ng.484$RD.249@fed1read08... Hi Sal... > I have problems with most characters of four or more elements length. > Exceptions are and , for some reason. Since I don't do CW too much anymore, I have similar problems, and I've been at it since 1961! If I did it more, I'd probably get better and I'm not suggesting that you "need more practice", just offering a little empthy... (:-) [... snip ...] Oh yeah -- I know because the dit-dit-dit-dah sounds > like the 1812 overture. Ummm... I believe you are referring to ''Beethoven's fifth" di - di - di - dah. di - di - di - dah. didididah, didididah, didididah... 73, Steve, K9DCI Article: 225860 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Gene Fuller Subject: Re: Noise level between two ant types References: <6Qymg.71233$4L1.62783@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com> <_tYmg.2350$Yk.1437@trnddc06> <3Uxng.250469$Fs1.65982@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 21:19:37 GMT Cecil Moore wrote: > Gene Fuller wrote: >> Early in this thread "conventional accepted physics" said that corona >> could not exist in fairweather conditions. > > I just waded back through my postings. A day or two after making > that statement, I added the context in which that statement was > made. (That happened days ago). > > Conventional accepted physics says that corona cannot exist in > fairweather conditions without an additional source of energy. > When I asked that the source of corona energy be identified, > I believe it was you who said, "Who cares?". So I ask again. > Given fairweather conditions, what is the source of energy > for corona? In matters of politics, one follows the money. > In matters of physics, one follows the energy. Cecil, I said that one could use either energy or forces (fields) to solve most problems. (I have said something similar several times in the past.) It is often much more convenient to use one formalism over the other due to the availability of numerical information and workable boundary conditions. If the problem is set up correctly and the math is done correctly the same answer will result from either formalism. If you want to solve the corona question by "following the energy", have at it. Go ahead and set up the correct boundary conditions, figure out the right equations to use, and just plug-and-crank. Piece o' cake. The only minor issue is that the atmosphere can act as a effectively limitless source or sink for energy. But I am confident you can find a way around that little detail. By the way, I would sure like to find that reference you have for "conventional accepted physics." I have a library full of physics books, all of which seem to be conventional and accepted, but I have not found one that has such as all-encompassing title. 73, Gene W4SZ Article: 225861 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "David G. Nagel" Subject: Re: low power FM TX and multiple antennas? Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 16:21:00 -0500 Message-ID: <12a0jtu841lvn8c@corp.supernews.com> References: <1151335477.317846.142060@r2g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> MRW wrote: > Greetings. > > If we are using one low power FM transmitter and we want to use a 2-bay > FM antenna configuration, will using a power splitter at the > transmitter output be sufficient? > > The FM TX utilizes a type N connection to the FM antennas. .... So if I > split the power output and just have two outputs to handle each of the > two antennas, then that would work right? > > What other considerations should I have in mind? Do I need to worry > about phasing issues? > > Thanks! > You need to move the splitter closer to the antennas in order to save power losses. You you need to worry about phasing but that is taken care of when you run the coax from the antennas to the splitter cut the coax to approx. 1/2 wave. See the ARRL antenna book. You will have a change in impedance in this configuration from the splitter to the antennas. Look at about 70 ohms to the antennas and use 50 ohms from the transmitter to the splitter. I am sure that other helpful assistance will be forthcoming from others. Turn your BS filter on. Dave WD9BDZ Article: 225862 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Steve N." Subject: Re: All Band Coax-fed Dipole ?????????? Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 16:19:44 -0500 Message-ID: References: <1151196343.440223.242020@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> Ooooo Saw the call and had to comment... I have a 40M inverted Vee up around 35 ft. . I have had out of state contacts on 75, 40(DX), 30(DX), 17, 15, 10 and 6. Is it a "good" antenna? I wish I had better, but it "works". Do I think it is a great antenna? No. Do I think it can be called efficient on the other bands? No. Do I think it has lots of lobes on the higher frequencies? Yes. If I can hear them, I can usually work them. OK by me... Do I have room for better? No. I got much more than what I paid for $0.00. You can probably do better with a "fan-type" dipole. I keep thinking I should at least add 75M wires and 20M wires. When I have time... . . . . . . . . . . . The antenna in question is similar and just as inefficient on some bands and has many lobes on others. It'll get you on the air if this is what you want / can afford. Dave... I used to talk with KC9DI on 2M. We'd say the calls as fast as we could, just to confuse the random listener...(:-) 73, Steve, K9DCI "KC1DI" wrote in message news:e7odqb$h92$1@nntp.aioe.org... > tomk3mov@yahoo.com wrote: > > The BuxComm Antenna Company sells what it calls an All Band Coax-fed > > Dipole. > > > > http://www.commparts.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=9&products_id=114318&osCsid=a84f7ccef1c8c9d59effad91005875fb > > > > > > It consists of 135 ft. of wire, a balun at the center feed point, and > > the RG 8X coax transmission line. I don't claim to know a whole lot > > about antennas, but this configuration is contrary to everything that I > > have read about feeding mutiband antennas. When I wrote to the company > > with a question about this, I received a response from K4ABT, Buck > > Rogers himself. He attached to his note a section from the ARRL Antenna > > Book, which seems to indicate that coax should not be used with this > > type of antenna if one wants to use it as a multibander. I have a lot > > of respect for Buck, based on his years of Elmering a lot of us through > > his articles. But this one has me stumped. Any input will be > > appreciated. > > > > My opinion would be that you'd be much better off if you want a single > wire antenna fed with coax going with one of the off center fed models. > the SWR is much better on many bands than the center fed model. > > But if you must have a center fed model then you'll need to feed > it with open wire line of some sort .. coax just is not going to perform > well for you in a single wire all band dublet. the Losses on most bands > are not good. > > 73 Dave kc1di Article: 225863 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "gravity" References: <9e847$4482def6$d06640f9$28274@FUSE.NET> <1149441418.531073.162560@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <9937b$44969457$d06640f9$14348@FUSE.NET> <44969559.30D72920@milestones.com> <1151356286.883560.56280@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: Elimination of CW is a loss in the number of ways we can communicatewith other. Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 16:51:48 -0500 Message-ID: <44a05784$0$15331$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> "an_old_friend" wrote in message news:1151356286.883560.56280@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com... > Steve N. wrote: > > "Sal M. Onella" wrote in message > > news:Qt3ng.484$RD.249@fed1read08... > > Hi Sal... > > > > > I have problems with most characters of four or more elements length. > > > Exceptions are and , for some reason. > > > > Since I don't do CW too much anymore, I have similar problems, and I've > > been at it since 1961! > > If I did it more, I'd probably get better and I'm not suggesting that you > > "need more practice", just offering a little empthy... (:-) > > > > > > [... snip ...] Oh yeah -- I know because the dit-dit-dit-dah sounds > > > like the 1812 overture. > > > > > > Ummm... I believe you are referring to ''Beethoven's fifth" di - di - > > di - dah. di - di - di - dah. didididah, didididah, didididah... > > > I am realy gald you said that I was thinking it myself but...... > > 73, Steve, K9DCI > the 5th is the only classical piece i can think of that starts like that but i'm sure there are more. L is easy to remember. "to hell with it". Gravity Article: 225864 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Caveat Lector" References: <9e847$4482def6$d06640f9$28274@FUSE.NET> <1149441418.531073.162560@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <9937b$44969457$d06640f9$14348@FUSE.NET> <44969559.30D72920@milestones.com> <1151356286.883560.56280@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <44a05784$0$15331$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> Subject: Re: Elimination of CW is a loss in the number of ways we can communicatewith other. Message-ID: <9nZng.106828$TK1.40562@fed1read06> Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 15:40:05 -0700 RE THE SUBJECT TITLE No one is eliminating the code, only the requirement to obtain a Ham license Many will use CW for many years to come Consider it an optional communication method. RE : Morse musical and word associations > the 5th is the only classical piece i can think of that starts like that > but > i'm sure there are more. > > L is easy to remember. "to hell with it". > > Gravity > > dah dah dit dah Her comes the bride She is a Queen for the day Queen = Q More associations at URL: http://www.afn.org/~afn05925/cw/ dah dah dit dit -- stupid zebra did it di dah di dah dit AR = You Think You Got It -- CL -- I doubt, therefore I might be ! Article: 225865 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: John - KD5YI Subject: Re: i want to know the length of a 6m dipole References: <9tzlg.24$JV6.20@fe11.lga> <4496df7b$0$80513$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> <129egmv2dvvpa10@corp.supernews.com> <084f92db31l2g9prrnf9a48dkg5pnpc3f0@4ax.com> Message-ID: Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 23:55:14 GMT Reg Edwards wrote: > There's too much fuss made about resonant length of simple wire > antennas. > > (1) Radiating efficiency is hardly affected by being as much as 20 or > 30 percent off-resonance in terms of antenna length. > > (2) The feedpoint resistance at resonance may indeed provide the > theoretical correct termination for the transmission line for 1-to-1 > SWR in the middle of an amateur band. But it is way off resonance at > the band edges with an SWR which causes little if any concern. > > (3) The impedance of the transmission line is usually known only > approximately. The reactance of Zo is always ignored. So exact SWR on > the line is never known. SWR varies slowly with small changes in > antenna off-resonance length. > > (4) If an antenna tuner can accommodate changes in input impedance > from one band to another it can certainly accommodate the omission of > the correction factor 468/F. > > (5) So it hardly matters whether the correction is applied or not. The > minute difference in operating performance will be detected only by an > impossible A/B test. You can put away your pruning shears. > > The theoretical resonant length of a 1/2-wave dipole is 150/F metres. > The actual resonant length is very slightly shorter. > > In free space, the shortening depends on length-to-diameter ratio of > the antenna conductor. But at low heights above ground the shortening > effect increases. > > When the antenna wire is lying on the ground its velocity factor is > approximately 1/2 of the free space value of 1. > > So you see the formula 468/F, although good enough for most purposes > if you want to use it, is very approximate. > > The question is about the resonant length of a 6m dipole. > > Is the dipole 6 metres long or is it resonant in the 6 metre amateur > band? Questioners should make themselves clear. > > Assuming it is 50 MHz, resonant dipole length is very nearly 150/F > metres = 3 metres. > > But the answer depends on conductor diameter. If frequency is 50 MHz > and the antenna is constructed with 14 gauge wire then the resonant > dipole length is 97 percent of 3 metres. > > If the anenna is constructed of 1", 25mm, diameter tubes, then the > resonant length is a little shorter. It is 94 percent of 3 metres. > > But actual lengths are non-critical. You can use a tape measure or a > wooden ruler. And don't worry if you can't find your spectacles. > ---- > Reg. > Hook, line, and sinker! Article: 225866 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "gravity" References: <9tzlg.24$JV6.20@fe11.lga> <4496df7b$0$80513$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> <129egmv2dvvpa10@corp.supernews.com> <084f92db31l2g9prrnf9a48dkg5pnpc3f0@4ax.com> Subject: Re: i want to know the length of a 6m dipole Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 19:07:10 -0500 Message-ID: <44a07740$0$15851$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> "John - KD5YI" wrote in message news:Ct_ng.26884$Xn.3642@trnddc05... > > But actual lengths are non-critical. You can use a tape measure or a > > wooden ruler. And don't worry if you can't find your spectacles. > > ---- > > Reg. > > > > > Hook, line, and sinker! and also the dipole is shorter because you want to cancel out the reactance. a "real" half-wave would have a resistive and reactive component. i think if you get into big tubing or pipe, you get too much reactance. Gravity Article: 225867 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "gravity" References: <9tzlg.24$JV6.20@fe11.lga> <4496df7b$0$80513$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> <129egmv2dvvpa10@corp.supernews.com> <084f92db31l2g9prrnf9a48dkg5pnpc3f0@4ax.com> Subject: Re: i want to know the length of a 6m dipole Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 19:12:19 -0500 Message-ID: <44a07874$0$79632$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> > > The theoretical resonant length of a 1/2-wave dipole is 150/F metres. i should have thought of that. c = 3 * 10^8 m/s F = frequency / 10^6 465/F theoretical (feet) 468/F practical i think i made a math error. Gravity Article: 225868 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: rf burn From: Dave Oldridge References: <129s61p92po1l17@corp.supernews.com> Message-ID: Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 00:17:23 GMT "Frank Alforo" wrote in news:129s61p92po1l17@corp.supernews.com: > If I touch the coil in my tuner while transmitting I get a painful rf > burn. But a bird can perch on my antenna wire while I transmit 100 > watts and it stays there seemingly without a care in the world. How > come? The bird is (usually) small compared to the wavelength. Much smaller than you are. And, except at the ends of antenna elements, the voltage is not particularly high. Whereas there is a high voltage across your coil and you are a much larger portion of a wavelength than the bird, so significant current will flow into you if you touch the coil. -- Dave Oldridge+ ICQ 1800667 Article: 225869 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Sal M. Onella" References: <9e847$4482def6$d06640f9$28274@FUSE.NET> <1149441418.531073.162560@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <9937b$44969457$d06640f9$14348@FUSE.NET> <44969559.30D72920@milestones.com> Subject: Re: Elimination of CW is a loss in the number of ways we can communicatewith other. Message-ID: Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 21:19:33 -0700 "Steve N." wrote in message news:e7phig$k52$1@avnika.corp.mot.com... > > "Sal M. Onella" wrote in message > [... snip ...] Oh yeah -- I know because the dit-dit-dit-dah sounds > > like the 1812 overture. > > > Ummm... I believe you are referring to ''Beethoven's fifth" di - di - > di - dah. di - di - di - dah. didididah, didididah, didididah... > > 73, Steve, K9DCI > > Hm-m-m. I can hear that in my head. ... thought it was the 1812 Overture. BT Playing the selection is mighty convincing: Ol' Ludwig pops off some V's right at the start. I do not seem to have the 1812 Overture handy, so here I tread ever-so-lightly ... not being much for knowing good music. I can run bits of 1812 through my head, too, but not much. (I just get started and run out of headroom.) I shall seek it out. TKS & 73 Sal (really KD6VKW, the vicious killer weasel) Article: 225870 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Sal M. Onella" References: <9e847$4482def6$d06640f9$28274@FUSE.NET> <1149441418.531073.162560@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <9937b$44969457$d06640f9$14348@FUSE.NET> <44969559.30D72920@milestones.com> Subject: Re: Elimination of CW is a loss in the number of ways we can communicatewith other. Message-ID: Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 21:42:19 -0700 "Sal M. Onella" wrote in message news:ol2og.1072$RD.897@fed1read08... > > "Steve N." wrote : > > Ummm... I believe you are referring to ''Beethoven's fifth" di - di - > > di - dah. di - di - di - dah. didididah, didididah, didididah... > > > > 73, Steve, K9DCI MORE: I just played the 1812 Overture and didn't hear any V's. Heard quite a few T's and E's ... but no V's. Thanks. Article: 225871 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "gravity" References: <9e847$4482def6$d06640f9$28274@FUSE.NET> <1149441418.531073.162560@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <9937b$44969457$d06640f9$14348@FUSE.NET> <44969559.30D72920@milestones.com> Subject: Re: Elimination of CW is a loss in the number of ways we can communicatewith other. Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 01:29:12 -0500 Message-ID: <44a0d0c8$0$11193$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> "Sal M. Onella" wrote in message news:ol2og.1072$RD.897@fed1read08... > > "Steve N." wrote in message > news:e7phig$k52$1@avnika.corp.mot.com... > > > > "Sal M. Onella" wrote in message > > > [... snip ...] Oh yeah -- I know because the dit-dit-dit-dah sounds > > > like the 1812 overture. > > > > > > Ummm... I believe you are referring to ''Beethoven's fifth" di - di - > > di - dah. di - di - di - dah. didididah, didididah, didididah... > > > > 73, Steve, K9DCI > > > > > Hm-m-m. I can hear that in my head. ... thought it was the 1812 Overture. > > BT > > Playing the selection is mighty convincing: Ol' Ludwig pops off some V's > right at the start. I do not seem to have the 1812 Overture handy, so here > I tread ever-so-lightly ... not being much for knowing good music. I can > run bits of 1812 through my head, too, but not much. (I just get started > and run out of headroom.) I shall seek it out. TKS & 73 it is a 12(?) minute piece, and i ran a few minutes through my head. there is a short part that goes dit dit dit dah. if you get the real cannon / bass drum recording, it is incredible. Gravity Article: 225872 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Roy Lewallen Subject: Re: All Band Coax-fed Dipole ?????????? Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 03:19:06 -0700 Message-ID: <12a21gtrbsfkf63@corp.supernews.com> References: <1151196343.440223.242020@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <449e9959$0$16418$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> Owen Duffy wrote: > . . . > Frank, in the absence of information on the balun, I did model it as > ideal, and that the load at the load end of the coax was 4200 ohms. > That is probably a reasonable assumption. Perhaps the 4200 ohms is reasonable, but the assumption that the balun is ideal when connected to that load impedance is most definitely not. Any result you get when using that assumption is useless. > A real balun would not perfectly isolate the transmission line from > drive so influencing feed point impedance , and would probably > transform the real feed point impedance to something different to 4200 > ohms, and so the line losses could be different (better or worse). A real balun would do all those things, in addition to adding reactance and, at that impedance level, loss. >. . . Roy Lewallen, W7EL Article: 225873 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Roy Lewallen Subject: Re: All Band Coax-fed Dipole ?????????? Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 03:24:38 -0700 Message-ID: <12a21r9tce0jpf4@corp.supernews.com> References: <1151196343.440223.242020@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> tomk3mov@yahoo.com wrote: > The BuxComm Antenna Company sells what it calls an All Band Coax-fed > Dipole. > > http://www.commparts.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=9&products_id=114318&osCsid=a84f7ccef1c8c9d59effad91005875fb > > > It consists of 135 ft. of wire, a balun at the center feed point, How did you conclude that the feed point is at the center? The lengths of the sides are labeled only "L1" and "L2" on the drawing. and > the RG 8X coax transmission line. I don't claim to know a whole lot > about antennas, but this configuration is contrary to everything that I > have read about feeding mutiband antennas. When I wrote to the company > with a question about this, I received a response from K4ABT, Buck > Rogers himself. He attached to his note a section from the ARRL Antenna > Book, which seems to indicate that coax should not be used with this > type of antenna if one wants to use it as a multibander. I have a lot > of respect for Buck, based on his years of Elmering a lot of us through > his articles. But this one has me stumped. Any input will be > appreciated. I believe the antenna will be quite inefficient on some if not all bands, either by accident (a balun which becomes lossy when confronted with extreme impedances) or intent (a resistor inside the "balun" container). If so, it's possible you'll get a reasonable match on all bands, and nearly certain that you'll be able to talk to some people when using it. But it also means that your signal will be considerably weaker than it would be if you were using an efficient antenna. Roy Lewallen, W7EL Article: 225874 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: Noise level between two ant types References: <6Qymg.71233$4L1.62783@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com> <_tYmg.2350$Yk.1437@trnddc06> <3Uxng.250469$Fs1.65982@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:43:12 GMT Gene Fuller wrote: > If you want to solve the corona question by "following the energy", have > at it. The basic question is where does the energy from corona come from? There should be a simple answer to that simple question. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp Article: 225875 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Jeff Dieterle" Subject: Antenna tower Grounding Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 08:48:16 -0500 Message-ID: I'm installing a 60ft self-supporting tower. It will have a vhf/uhf antenna with rotator and a couple of satellite dishes on it. The tower will be set in a concrete apprx. 4'x4'x4'. Is driving a copper clad 5/8"x8ft ground rod and attaching a #6cu ground wire to the tower leg sufficient. I live in a heavily wooded area and have lost several modems to lighting strikes. Now when it looks like thunder 2 states away I unplug them on my computers and Directv receivers. Article: 225876 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 08:49:34 -0400 From: "J. D. B." Subject: Re: Field day was great, even the phonies had fun and learned from References: Message-ID: <1730d$44a129d9$d06640f9$23135@FUSE.NET> I know what you mean about Elmering. Many of the new hams had to Elmer the old CW only hams who had no idea how to operate a computer or even use all the great new digital modes. Some of the dinos had trouble trying to figure out the solid state rigs. They kept looking around for things to tune like it was some boat anchor tube rig - LOL!!! It's amazing how the dinos can operate a key, but they can't get the hang of a mouse. We eventually had to give up. Can't teach the old dogs new tricks so the younger and newer hams used the digital modes and the old dinos stuck to their CW. Although the CW types were amazed how PSK31 could be copied even when you could not hear the other station. They admitted that you can't copy CW if you cannot hear it. I think we made a lot of progress on FD. Finally the dinos admitted that there are modes that are better and more capable than CW. One old guy even said we should give up on the CW testing and test new hams how to use a computer and the new digital modes and that was more relevant for today's ham radio. Slow Code wrote: > Did a lot of Elmering too, but that's what ham radio is about. Also glad > that we weren't outnumbered by appliance operators. With them, when a > computer goes down it's like the end of the world. > > sc > > Article: 225877 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Gene Fuller Subject: Re: Noise level between two ant types References: <6Qymg.71233$4L1.62783@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com> <_tYmg.2350$Yk.1437@trnddc06> <3Uxng.250469$Fs1.65982@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 12:57:58 GMT Cecil Moore wrote: > Gene Fuller wrote: >> If you want to solve the corona question by "following the energy", >> have at it. > > The basic question is where does the energy from corona > come from? There should be a simple answer to that > simple question. Cecil, Why should there be a simple answer? I already told you that is not the path I would take if I wanted to find a quantitative solution. You might check your "conventional accepted physics" references if you are looking for a simple answer. On the other hand, if those references consist only of hand-waving explanations, common sense logic, and quotes from legions of experienced radio amateurs, then you may need to do some actual work to find your answer. 73, Gene W4SZ Article: 225878 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: John Ferrell Subject: Re: Antenna tower Grounding Message-ID: References: Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 13:44:58 GMT I have a similar situation. I have come to believe the most important thing to do is assure that all of the ground rods are connected. I have power, phone and cable service underground. I don't think I have had a significant strike since last August when I had a company install lightning rods on the house. They were very careful to ground the base of the tower to one of their rods. They installed Galvanized rods. Another good question is whether to ground the rebar in the tower base. I elected not to worry about it but to focus on tower grounding. I wonder about the dishes on the tower. In times past mounting them too high mad them vulnerable to terrestrial noise. The wind load they contribute can be awesome. On Tue, 27 Jun 2006 08:48:16 -0500, "Jeff Dieterle" wrote: >I'm installing a 60ft self-supporting tower. It will have a vhf/uhf antenna >with rotator and a couple of satellite dishes on it. The tower will be set >in a concrete apprx. 4'x4'x4'. Is driving a copper clad 5/8"x8ft ground rod >and attaching a #6cu ground wire to the tower leg sufficient. >I live in a heavily wooded area and have lost several modems to lighting >strikes. Now when it looks like thunder 2 states away I unplug them on my >computers and Directv receivers. > John Ferrell W8CCW Article: 225879 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Win Subject: Re: rf burn Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 09:01:44 -0500 Message-ID: References: <129s61p92po1l17@corp.supernews.com> On Sun, 25 Jun 2006 12:09:18 GMT, Cecil Moore wrote: >Frank Alforo wrote: >> If I touch the coil in my tuner while transmitting I get a painful rf burn. >> But a bird can perch on my antenna wire while I transmit 100 watts and it >> stays there seemingly without a care in the world. How come? > >You could probably hang by one hand from a 20 kV power >line and be OK as long as you didn't complete a current >path to another wire or ground. You could probably hang by both hands if they were close together. I would not want to try it, though. When I worked in broadcast radio years ago, I was always amazed that service personnal would climb the 10 kw tower hot to change lights. They stated they could feel potential between their hands as they climbed. Win, wolz Article: 225880 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Bob Subject: Re: Antenna tower Grounding References: Message-ID: Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 14:38:29 GMT What you described will do little for lightning protection except give you a false sense of security. Surviving a direct hit requires much more grounding and proper treatment and routing of all cables into the house. I would highly recommend spending $20 on PolyPhaser’s book of info or at least reading the tech notes on their web site. Bob Jeff Dieterle wrote: > I'm installing a 60ft self-supporting tower. It will have a vhf/uhf antenna > with rotator and a couple of satellite dishes on it. The tower will be set > in a concrete apprx. 4'x4'x4'. Is driving a copper clad 5/8"x8ft ground rod > and attaching a #6cu ground wire to the tower leg sufficient. > I live in a heavily wooded area and have lost several modems to lighting > strikes. Now when it looks like thunder 2 states away I unplug them on my > computers and Directv receivers. > > Article: 225881 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "David G. Nagel" Subject: Re: Noise level between two ant types Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 09:43:27 -0500 Message-ID: <12a2h0h61ugoca1@corp.supernews.com> References: <6Qymg.71233$4L1.62783@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com> <_tYmg.2350$Yk.1437@trnddc06> <3Uxng.250469$Fs1.65982@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Cecil Moore wrote: > Gene Fuller wrote: > >> If you want to solve the corona question by "following the energy", >> have at it. > > > The basic question is where does the energy from corona > come from? There should be a simple answer to that > simple question. Motion of one material against another. Silk/glass, dust/metal, rubber belt/metal combs. They all transfer electrons from one object to anther. Dave N Article: 225882 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: richardharrison@webtv.net (Richard Harrison) Subject: Re: Antenna tower Grounding Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:05:36 -0500 Message-ID: <376-44A15750-972@storefull-3256.bay.webtv.net> References: Jeff Dieterle wrote: "The tower will be set in a concrete (block) 4`x4`x4`. Is driving a copper-clad 5/8"x8 ft. ground rod and sttaching a #6 ground wire to the tower leg sufficient?" Yes, if you have one rod and attachment run outside the tower base block for each of the tower`s legs. This has worked for me countless times with good results. Usually my ground wires were larger than #6 AWG, but I think #6 is likely large enough to work well. The tower ground must be well connected to the electrical service ground to meet code and ensure the potential difference between grounds is insignificant, even during lightning strikes. Best regards, Richard Harrison,KB5WZI Article: 225883 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "gravity" References: <6Qymg.71233$4L1.62783@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com> <_tYmg.2350$Yk.1437@trnddc06> <3Uxng.250469$Fs1.65982@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <12a2h0h61ugoca1@corp.supernews.com> <-LadnZuubrOj1zzZnZ2dnUVZ_umdnZ2d@comcast.com> Subject: Re: Noise level between two ant types Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:42:38 -0500 Message-ID: <44a16094$0$14238$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corona_discharge Article: 225884 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: Noise level between two ant types References: <6Qymg.71233$4L1.62783@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com> <_tYmg.2350$Yk.1437@trnddc06> <449c78d7$0$16391$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> <1151114458.462887.105550@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <0smum3-l6l.ln1@mail.specsol.com> <129qn4gq8iod1f@corp.supernews.com> <449dacd1$0$15591$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> Message-ID: Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 17:32:55 GMT Jim Kelley wrote: > But in > consideration of the latter, it should be apparent that if the magnitude > of the randomly fluctuating ion current approaches that of a small > electromagnetic current it would be impossible not to detect it. Exactly. Whether one particle can cause a detectable noise pulse obviously depends on the charge on the noise particle and a number of other parameters. But given, e.g. a coax fed dipole with the coax braid grounded, a difference is charge is likely to occur between the elements that is large enough to be heard. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp Article: 225885 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: Elimination of CW is a loss in the number of ways we can communicatewith References: <9e847$4482def6$d06640f9$28274@FUSE.NET> <1149441418.531073.162560@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <9937b$44969457$d06640f9$14348@FUSE.NET> <44969559.30D72920@milestones.com> <129lvmgofeujhbd@corp.supernews.com> Message-ID: Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 17:37:55 GMT Slow Code wrote: > Granting a person privileges because they're retarded is like being forced > to hire someone because they're black. I've been looking for a flat black colored person but have been unable to find any. I also have not found anyone who is white as a sheet of white paper. Alas, all I have found are people who vary in shades of brown earthtones. By looking at a spectrometer display, it is actually hard to tell one >from another. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp Article: 225886 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: Elimination of CW is a loss in the number of ways we can communicatewith References: <1149441418.531073.162560@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <9937b$44969457$d06640f9$14348@FUSE.NET> <44969559.30D72920@milestones.com> <129lvmgofeujhbd@corp.supernews.com> <129md8dpa74dk64@corp.supernews.com> <0b-dna0PZNH3XwbZnZ2dnUVZ_t-dnZ2d@comcast.com> <1151079492.943855.93760@b68g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <449c2766$0$79632$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> Message-ID: <33eog.55053$fb2.28347@newssvr27.news.prodigy.net> Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 17:39:11 GMT Slow Code wrote: > When hardware fails, my pencil and paper still work. When hardware fails, you resort to messages in bottles? -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp Article: 225887 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: Email this to President Bush, let's make the FCC do the right References: <129lvmbplp06vb5@corp.supernews.com> <20060622210907.921$Dw@newsreader.com> <129mlm3nr8l38cf@corp.supernews.com> Message-ID: Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 17:40:35 GMT Slow Code wrote: > Hey Chicken Blaster, It's 'peace', not 'piece', you retard. > So stick that in your Crack pipe and smoke it. Maybe he knew the same gal in Ca. that I did. We often smoked the piece pipe. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp Article: 225888 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: Field day was great, even the phonies had fun and learned from References: Message-ID: Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 17:42:06 GMT Slow Code wrote: > Did a lot of Elmering too, but that's what ham radio is about. Also glad > that we weren't outnumbered by appliance operators. With them, when a > computer goes down it's like the end of the world. While you, OTOH, when your hardware fails, simply drag out the signaling flags, mirrors, and smoke signals? -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp Article: 225889 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: Noise level between two ant types References: <6Qymg.71233$4L1.62783@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com> <_tYmg.2350$Yk.1437@trnddc06> <3Uxng.250469$Fs1.65982@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 17:49:37 GMT Gene Fuller wrote: > Why should there be a simple answer? Because conservation of energy is a very simple concept. Energy either exists or it doesn't. If it doesn't, corona is impossible. > I already told you that is not the path I would take if I wanted to find > a quantitative solution. I know that already and your particular quantitative solution explains absolutely nothing about reality so it has to be taken on faith. Quantum physics is currently filled with such solutions. Nobody can prove that virtual photons exist because if virtual photons could be proved to exist, they wouldn't be virtual anymore. That's essentially the same argument you are using. "Forget energy reality and place your faith in my religious mathematical model that doesn't require any energy". Sorry, but no thanks. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp Article: 225890 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: Noise level between two ant types References: <6Qymg.71233$4L1.62783@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com> <_tYmg.2350$Yk.1437@trnddc06> <3Uxng.250469$Fs1.65982@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <12a2h0h61ugoca1@corp.supernews.com> Message-ID: Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 17:53:10 GMT David G. Nagel wrote: > Cecil Moore wrote: >> The basic question is where does the energy from corona >> come from? There should be a simple answer to that >> simple question. > > Motion of one material against another. Silk/glass, dust/metal, rubber > belt/metal combs. > They all transfer electrons from one object to anther. Does triboelectricity *always* cause corona? Of course not! -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp Article: 225891 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: Noise level between two ant types References: <6Qymg.71233$4L1.62783@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com> <_tYmg.2350$Yk.1437@trnddc06> <3Uxng.250469$Fs1.65982@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>