Article: 225993 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2006 11:09:22 -0400 From: jawod Subject: HFTA-ARRL-Space Message-ID: <52ec8$44a69065$453d9423$8142@FUSE.NET> Tried to make the subject grab a bit. I just fininshed the ARRL Antenna Book Chapter on Effects of Ground. There are HFTA graphs showing elevation response for various antenna configurations (mostly Yagis). Most arrays show good response up to 12 degrees above the horizon, then many show a null and then, a second peak around 25 to 30 degrees above the horizon. Here's my question: At 25 to 30 degrees elevation response, aren't these waves leaving the ionosphere (i.e., refracted instead of reflected)? Am I right to consider this component of propagation to have left the earth? This would indicate a substantial fraction of each amateur transmission is sent into space. I always thought Broadcast transmissions were most likely to emanate >from Earth. Are hams more or less likely to transmit into space than Broadcast? John (who wishes to remain a student and never an expert) Article: 225994 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Jimmie D" References: Subject: Re: DDRR antenna Message-ID: Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2006 11:25:36 -0400 "JSF" wrote in message news:ypednZxCdphO3zjZnZ2dnUVZ_q2dnZ2d@comcast.com... > Anyone used one and if so how did it compare to a 1/4 wave. > > > When I was in the Air Force the DDRR antenna became the topic of discussion of many of us who were hams or wanted to become hams at the time. Someone had read a little about it and decided this must be the end-all of antennas. A little more research revealed that this antenna truly had a lot of the attributes my friend claimed but it was also an extremely low impedance antenna(less than an ohm if memory serves). This means the elements would have to be built to handle high currents and the matching networks could be a real problem. All of this meant lots of money to build so it was deemd impratical. Article: 225995 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: =?windows-1252?Q?Glenn_M=F8ller-Holst?= Subject: Distributed Loaded Monopole-technology based antennas Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2006 17:59:53 +0200 Message-ID: Regarding a new philosophy for constructing shortened antennas. Have somebody experience with Distributed Loaded Monopole-technology based antennas. Please look on slide number 10, 19, 24, 53: http://www.uri.edu/news/vincent/boxboro_files/frame.htm Slide 25 shows how it is constructed: http://www.uri.edu/news/vincent/boxboro_files/frame.htm According to the following test, the antenna should be good - and maybe better than other shortened antennas. 70% efficiency for a 1/4 wave shortened antenna, is that good?: - April 28, 2005 Navy gives URI’s small antenna big results http://www.uri.edu/news/releases/?id=3126 Quote: "... In addition, the gain of Vincent’s capacity Top Hat DLM antenna, which incorporates a helix, a load coil, a capacitive top hat utilizing radial spokes at the top of the antenna and a horizontal plane was nearly identical to the ideal quarter wave antenna. Its bandwidth was greater than 5 percent of the operating frequency and the antenna is more than 70 percent shorter than an ideal quarter wave antenna. Vincent’s standard DLM antennas with a standard helix and load coil were also tested at various frequencies. All exhibited gains nearly equal to the ideal antenna with bandwidths of 3 to 10 percent. The antennas were 33 to 40 percent shorter. ..." - Test Report of U.R.I. DLM ANTENNAS By The NAVAL UNDERSEA WARFARE CENTER Of Newport, Rhode Island At The NUWC Fishers Island, New York One MileTest Range March 31, 2005. Robert Vincent Dept. Physics University of Rhode Island Kingston, RI 02881 http://www.uri.edu/news/vincent/report05/testreport.pdf Quote: "... The overall data error of this facility is less than 0.2db. in any one measurement. ... The reference monopole can considered as a perfect monopole operating over a perfect ground system. NUWC calculates this reference antenna level over their calibrated one mile range. ... Antenna type Gain db** 7MHz Plano Spiral Top Hat —Super DLM“ +.06db (100% virkningsgrad) ... 7 MHz Standard DLM #1 -1.71db (67% virkningsgrad) 7 MHz Standard DLM #2 -1.56db (70% virkningsgrad) ... 10 MHz Standard DLM #1 -1.14db (77% virkningsgrad) 10 MHz Standard DLM #2 -1.37db (73% virkningsgrad) ... Percentage of operating antenna length as compared to a ³ wave monopole is indicated below. . Antenna type %1/4 wave Plano Spiral Top DLM (super DLM) 50% Standard DLM 33% ..." /Glenn Article: 225996 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: =?windows-1252?Q?Glenn_M=F8ller-Holst?= Subject: Re: Distributed Loaded Monopole-technology based antennas Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2006 18:09:24 +0200 Message-ID: References: Additional information: The antenna does not have a feeding matching network and it is rather broad-banded for a shortened antenna to be. Or is it? - please compare i with other shortened antennas. /Glenn Article: 225997 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "J. Mc Laughlin" Subject: Re: HFTA-ARRL-Space Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2006 15:03:06 -0400 Message-ID: <12adhkncvfarta9@corp.supernews.com> References: <52ec8$44a69065$453d9423$8142@FUSE.NET> Dear John: If you were a radio amateur who is interested in working other radio amateurs at a great distance, then you wish to have a significant portion of your antenna's radiation within about 12 to 2 degrees above the horizon. In tern, this goal suggests that a preferred height for an HF, horizontally-polarized antenna is between 2 and 2.5 wavelengths above ground. If the higher angle radiation does not pass through the ionosphere, it contributes to interference to (relatively) nearby stations (and, because the antenna probably is used for reception, contributes to hearing nearby stations). Expensive HF antenna systems exist that significantly suppress all except the lowest lobe. If you wish to be a student of antennas, do invest in Kraus' 3rd edition of Antennas. Read and study the book starting with the first chapter. Regards, Mac N8TT -- J. Mc Laughlin; Michigan U.S.A. Home: JCM@Power-Net.Net "jawod" wrote in message news:52ec8$44a69065$453d9423$8142@FUSE.NET... > Tried to make the subject grab a bit. > > I just fininshed the ARRL Antenna Book Chapter on Effects of Ground. > There are HFTA graphs showing elevation response for various antenna > configurations (mostly Yagis). > > Most arrays show good response up to 12 degrees above the horizon, then > many show a null and then, a second peak around 25 to 30 degrees above > the horizon. > > Here's my question: > At 25 to 30 degrees elevation response, aren't these waves leaving the > ionosphere (i.e., refracted instead of reflected)? > > Am I right to consider this component of propagation to have left the earth? > > This would indicate a substantial fraction of each amateur transmission > is sent into space. > > I always thought Broadcast transmissions were most likely to emanate > from Earth. Are hams more or less likely to transmit into space than > Broadcast? > > John > (who wishes to remain a student and never an expert) Article: 225998 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Field day was great, even the phonies had fun and learned from us dinosaurs. From: Slow Code References: <1730d$44a129d9$d06640f9$23135@FUSE.NET> <14079$44a50aea$d06640f9$26607@FUSE.NET> Message-ID: Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2006 21:24:47 GMT "J. D. B." wrote in news:e3e2d$44a5d3f5$d06640f9$12100@FUSE.NET: > Slow Code, I think it is time you put up or shut up. If the skills among > you dinos were so great, then you had to finish at the top of your > category. So tell us now, what group were you part of, what section, > and what category did you compete in? > > Then, when the results are published, we will compare your standings > with those other groups who had the modern, technically trained > operators. > > We'll see if the dinos are extinct or if modern humans have triumphed. > Even if only three contacts are made, the score isn't what's important. What is important is showing and training new hams in how to communicate and operate effectively during emergencies and not be Appliance operators. Hams like you that worry about final score are more likely to cheat because you choose to ignore or fail to see the things that are important. SC Article: 225999 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Field day was great, even the phonies had fun and learned from us dinosaurs. From: Slow Code References: <5MGog.30641$VE1.2858@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> <_uZog.126$PE1.119@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2006 21:24:50 GMT Cecil Moore wrote in news:S3lpg.76092$4L1.8548@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com: > Slow Code wrote: >> And how many times has that happened to you? I'll bet never. You're >> too smart to smoke your finals. Normally when I hear someone lost >> their finals it was a result of operator error, or an act of stupidity. > > Act of God - lightning. And the CW mode was not spared. No. Not disconnecting equipment when a storm is coming is act of stupidity. sc Article: 226000 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Message-ID: <44A6F0CD.1040106@fuse.net> Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2006 18:01:49 -0400 From: jawod Subject: Re: HFTA-ARRL-Space References: <52ec8$44a69065$453d9423$8142@FUSE.NET> Richard Clark wrote: > On Sat, 01 Jul 2006 11:09:22 -0400, jawod wrote: > >>Here's my question: >>At 25 to 30 degrees elevation response, aren't these waves leaving the >>ionosphere (i.e., refracted instead of reflected)? > > > Hi John, > > You are confusing models of propagation with models for antenna lobe > characteristics. The lobes certainly have a major impact on > propagation, but the antenna modeler is not concerned with that. The > terrain modeler is not a propagation modeler. For that, consult > VOACAP or WINCAP. They are properly concerned with ionospheric > issues, but they are also driven by antenna models too. > > >>Am I right to consider this component of propagation to have left the earth? > > > To some degree, yes, but it has very little bearing on what you are > focused on here. > > >>This would indicate a substantial fraction of each amateur transmission >>is sent into space. > > > In fact, no. The apportionment of the energy into lobes is simply > robbing Peter to pay Paul. The nulls were developed from energy lost > to the peaked lobes. This is very loose analogy because energy was > never lost, it is merely the combination from many sources that makes > this lobe shape appears as it does. > > An antenna radiates from every portion of its structure and in every > direction. When all contributions are viewed from a distance, some > portions of the structure are out of phase with respect to others > portions. When those two contributions are 180° out of phase, that > remote point at where they combine perceives a null (a destructive > combination). At some other remote point, those same two > contributions may combine constructively for a peak response. Same > energies all around, but path lengths shift the wave phases and how > they combine constructs the characteristic lobe shape. > > If you took college physics, you must have seen how two charges > separated by a distance combine their effects at remote points to > offer an "electric dipole." Same logic. > > 73's > Richard Clark, KB7QHC Thanks for setting me right! John AB8WH Article: 226001 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2006 17:15:04 -0500 From: Tom Ring Subject: Re: HFTA-ARRL-Space References: <52ec8$44a69065$453d9423$8142@FUSE.NET> <4e6dnXMV6_XAMzvZRVnysQ@bt.com> <9ocda2tsr17ogdgecjqqqop81evt407t6d@4ax.com> <44CdnQflpMXIVTvZRVnyrA@bt.com> Message-ID: <44a6f3e8$0$1013$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> Richard Clark wrote: > On Sat, 1 Jul 2006 19:50:43 +0100, "Reg Edwards" > wrote: > > >>I am 3/4 of the way down a bottle of "Cotes du Rhone Villages" red, >>2004, 14.5% by volume. > > An empty bottle of Quadrupel "Three Philosophers" Belgian lambic ale > (9.8%) sits nearby. > > 73's > Richard Clark, KB7QHC While we're at it, I am just enjoying my first ever 20th Aniversary Summit Brewing Extra Special Bitter Ale. Just out this weekend. No %age listed. And not too bitter first taste, very smooth, light after bitter on the back of the tongue. Summit made another hit. tom K0TAR Article: 226002 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2006 17:33:29 -0500 From: Tom Ring Subject: Re: HFTA-ARRL-Space References: <52ec8$44a69065$453d9423$8142@FUSE.NET> Message-ID: <44a6f83a$0$6147$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> Dave wrote: > > > broadcast is more likely. there are many more broadcast stations on the air > 24x7, over the same range of spectrum that we use, and running much higher > power than we use. the most likely signals to reach out from earth are > likely fm broadcast and tv signals since those are normally well above the > critical frequency that reflects from the ionosphere and can be fairly high > power. lower hf, mf, and lf are less likely to get out as they reflect from > the ionosphere even at very high angles. > Radar is the best we do, but not much information is transmitted beyond the fact that we are here, the beam is usually narrow, and the direction varies quickly. EME is a distant 2nd, carries real information in simple codes, the direction varies slowly, the beamwidth is usually low (on high GHz bands it can be less than the width of the moon), and the number of transmitters is very low. Either one of the previous could be picked up from a fair distance, but not likely because of the narrow angles and varying direction. And commercial broadcasting doesn't have the ERP in any particular direction to carry far. We live next to a very large noise source that would tend to swamp out what we generate. tom K0TAR Article: 226003 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Message-ID: <44A6F80E.6010102@fuse.net> Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2006 18:32:46 -0400 From: jawod Subject: Re: HFTA-ARRL-Space References: <52ec8$44a69065$453d9423$8142@FUSE.NET> Reg Edwards wrote: > Whether you call it Refraction or Reflection hardly matters. This I don't understand. To me, refraction versus reflection IS the issue. In optics, Brewster's angle is used. I still don't quite understand thte PseudoBrewster's Angle...it seems to have a different definition (at least in the ARRL book). > > What matters is that the wave, in effect, is reflected from an > ionospheric layer at at a particular height, roughly according to > optical laws. Trigonometry Rules! > > Since the transmitted 'beam' has a very wide angle in the vertical > plane, the energy returns to earth over an even wider range of > distances. > > The 'elevation angle' reported by antenna simulation programs is not > very meaningfull. It contains very little useful information, mainly > because the height of a reflecting layer is unknown at the time of > transmission. Neither is the number of hops known to a particular > destination. > ---- > Reg. > > Reg, Thanks for your answer. I guess I was trying to get at how much ham radio is propagated into space. Certainly SOME does. How does this compare to that amount propagated into space by Broadcast? My assumption has been that VHF TV, etc is easily passed through the ionosphere (minimally refracted). Article: 226004 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Message-ID: <44A6F98E.2060602@fuse.net> Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2006 18:39:10 -0400 From: jawod Subject: Re: HFTA-ARRL-Space References: <52ec8$44a69065$453d9423$8142@FUSE.NET> Dave wrote: > "jawod" wrote in message > news:52ec8$44a69065$453d9423$8142@FUSE.NET... > >>Tried to make the subject grab a bit. >> >>I just fininshed the ARRL Antenna Book Chapter on Effects of Ground. There >>are HFTA graphs showing elevation response for various antenna >>configurations (mostly Yagis). >> >>Most arrays show good response up to 12 degrees above the horizon, then >>many show a null and then, a second peak around 25 to 30 degrees above the >>horizon. > > > that is a function of height. the main lobe from the antenna is aimed at > the horizon and there are other lobes from the design of then antenna. then > reflections from the ground cause more vertical variations. these are > dependent on the height and the terrain around the antenna. > > >>Here's my question: >>At 25 to 30 degrees elevation response, aren't these waves leaving the >>ionosphere (i.e., refracted instead of reflected)? > > > not necessarily. look at the arrival angle statistics and you will see that > frequently very high angle propagation is possible. usually higher angles > mean shorter distances but at times you can get many short high angle hops > to cover long distances also. > > >>Am I right to consider this component of propagation to have left the >>earth? >> >>This would indicate a substantial fraction of each amateur transmission >>is sent into space. >> >>I always thought Broadcast transmissions were most likely to emanate from >>Earth. Are hams more or less likely to transmit into space than >>Broadcast? > > > broadcast is more likely. there are many more broadcast stations on the air > 24x7, over the same range of spectrum that we use, and running much higher > power than we use. the most likely signals to reach out from earth are > likely fm broadcast and tv signals since those are normally well above the > critical frequency that reflects from the ionosphere and can be fairly high > power. lower hf, mf, and lf are less likely to get out as they reflect from > the ionosphere even at very high angles. > > > >>John >>(who wishes to remain a student and never an expert) > > > Thanks to all for the "enlightenment". Guess I've got a little SETI streak in me. I just got back a copy of an Astrobiology text that I borrowed out. It's by Gilmour and Sephton, Cambridge University Press if anyone's interested. John Article: 226005 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Roy Lewallen Subject: Re: HFTA-ARRL-Space Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2006 15:59:05 -0700 Message-ID: <12advi02ogi7507@corp.supernews.com> References: <52ec8$44a69065$453d9423$8142@FUSE.NET> <44a6f83a$0$6147$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> Tom Ring wrote: > > Radar is the best we do, but not much information is transmitted beyond > the fact that we are here, the beam is usually narrow, and the direction > varies quickly. EME is a distant 2nd, carries real information in > simple codes, the direction varies slowly, the beamwidth is usually low > (on high GHz bands it can be less than the width of the moon), and the > number of transmitters is very low. > > Either one of the previous could be picked up from a fair distance, but > not likely because of the narrow angles and varying direction. And > commercial broadcasting doesn't have the ERP in any particular direction > to carry far. We live next to a very large noise source that would tend > to swamp out what we generate. VHF and UHF emissions escalated rapidly after WWII with the popularization of TV, and these readily penetrate the ionosphere. So there's a sphere of such emissions radiating outward from the Earth at the speed of light. And at the leading edge of this radiation sphere are the McCarthy hearings and the Howdy Doody show. No wonder the ETs have left us alone! Roy Lewallen, W7EL Article: 226006 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2006 18:13:01 -0500 From: Tom Ring Subject: Re: HFTA-ARRL-Space References: <52ec8$44a69065$453d9423$8142@FUSE.NET> <44a6f83a$0$6147$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <12advi02ogi7507@corp.supernews.com> Message-ID: <44a7017d$0$1013$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> Roy Lewallen wrote: > > VHF and UHF emissions escalated rapidly after WWII with the > popularization of TV, and these readily penetrate the ionosphere. So > there's a sphere of such emissions radiating outward from the Earth at > the speed of light. And at the leading edge of this radiation sphere are > the McCarthy hearings and the Howdy Doody show. No wonder the ETs have > left us alone! > > Roy Lewallen, W7EL What was wrong with Howdy Doody? tom K0TAR Article: 226007 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2006 19:15:46 -0400 From: "J. D. B." Subject: Re: Field day was great, even the phonies had fun and learned from References: <1730d$44a129d9$d06640f9$23135@FUSE.NET> <14079$44a50aea$d06640f9$26607@FUSE.NET> Message-ID: I call B.S.! If you old, outdated methods of communication are so superior, then you should have locked up the contest. So, this means one of two things. 1.) you're not telling the truth, or, 2.) the old methods you claim are superior are really not and the new "appliance operators" at other clubs using modern methods kicked your collective butts. I suspect that 1. is the truth and you did not participate in FD and didn't teach any news hams anything. In fact, if you did participate in FD, the "appliance operators" probably ran rings around you and embarrassed you so bad, you had to create this story to save face. Nice try, no one is buying the BS. Slow Code wrote: > > > > Even if only three contacts are made, the score isn't what's important. > What is important is showing and training new hams in how to communicate > and operate effectively during emergencies and not be Appliance operators. > Hams like you that worry about final score are more likely to cheat > because you choose to ignore or fail to see the things that are important. > > SC > > Article: 226008 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Owen Duffy Subject: Re: HFTA-ARRL-Space Message-ID: <3bjea2pjtija9e759p6sgua4vvtcv1udqt@4ax.com> References: <52ec8$44a69065$453d9423$8142@FUSE.NET> Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2006 04:43:41 GMT On Sat, 01 Jul 2006 16:11:42 -0700, Richard Clark wrote: >On the other hand, at HF the ratio between reflection and refraction >varies. There are times when both occur. During those times the >portion of the incident ray that is reflected returns to earth, while >the portion that is refracted continues on through the ionosphere into >space and never returns. I'm not sufficiently knowledgeable on the But is it actually reflection? Owen -- Article: 226009 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Sal M. Onella" References: Subject: Re: coax test? Message-ID: Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2006 22:02:37 -0700 "ml" wrote in message news:m-4CB295.22423530062006@news.verizon.net... > hi > > If you buy a length of coax w/connectors on it , either a short jumper > say 3ft or a run of say 100ft > > > what is an easy way to test the coax as well as the quality of > termination connector quality? > > accuracy is what i am looking for to ensure realibility at 1gig "Easy" and "accuracy" may not both come in the same package. Bob Bob is right but you could also do a swept VSWR. In my experience, it involves a device called a network analyzer, which sweeps across the band of interest through a directional coupler at the near end of the cable, into a dummy load at the far end. It automatically samples the reflected power and compares it to the forward power to produce the SWR more or less continuously. (I believe the sweeping is done incrementally, with steps so small it _appears_ continuous.) The resulting info is plotted or displayed as a graph with frequency left-to-right and VSWR up-and-down, with 1:1 being on the bottom. Some cable is sold as being "100%" sweep tested" to some upper limit. Last year I had a case of a Navy shipboard satcom uplink transmission line that failed its sweep test at one spot near the upper end of the frequency range ... around 8 GHz. We had to replace it. (AN/WSC-6, for those who know what that is.) We had the contractor "shoot" it three different times with different test equipment each time -- always the same. The new line was fine. Until then, I had never seen a defective cable that was quite so frequency sensitive! Article: 226010 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "hamguy1" Subject: looking for help with icom725 internal power supply Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2006 15:29:27 +1000 Message-ID: <44a759b4$0$22358$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> hi ham radiogroups, im after the internal power control or alc inside of a icom725 hf transceiver the radio is doing way to much power for the power supply, it currently is doing 150 watts it needs to be turned back down to around 100 watts .thanks in advance david from nsw australia . Article: 226011 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Bob Miller Subject: Re: All Band Coax-fed Dipole ?????????? Message-ID: <7ohfa2d494e2vabvrid1hs44h0nd6p57p8@4ax.com> References: <449e9959$0$16418$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> <12a21gtrbsfkf63@corp.supernews.com> <3s44a2dbc1aqbvgph1o7a3b60h0rkpt6o2@4ax.com> <2kd5a2djg2e651n4bpe6o7c4e0vvdkn93v@4ax.com> <4s6dnekOK9iOqT7ZnZ2dnUVZ_sOdnZ2d@adelphia.com> <12a6ig7ghnskr92@corp.supernews.com> Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2006 13:19:57 GMT On Wed, 28 Jun 2006 20:33:10 -0700, Roy Lewallen wrote: >Mike Coslo wrote: >> . . . >> I don't doubt that someone might come to a different conclusion, but >> I think my reasoning is pretty sound. I modeled an equal length version >> of this in 4nec, and it just doesn't work very well. OTOH, turn it into >> an OCF dipole, and it is a different story. . . > >How did you possibly determine what the balun input impedance was when >terminated with the impedances the antenna presented on the various >bands? How did you model the balun? It's almost certainly a "voltage" >balun which will force common mode current onto the feedline when >terminated with an asymmetrical load. I inquired about the baluns on their wire antennas -- their antennas feature 4-1 or 6-1 baluns, and got the following answer: "There are NO RESISTORS, and our 4:1 BALUNs are CURRENT Balun. As a matter of fact, all our baluns are CURRENT type. We also make voltage baluns, however, they are sold on a per/order basis." Bob k5qwg > Because of the common mode >current, the outside of the feedline must be part of the model. Did you >model the antenna with various lengths and orientations of feedlines? > >I don't believe that a valid model can be made of this type of antenna >without knowing and accounting for the major imperfections of the balun, >the common mode current it forces, and the feedline length and >orientation for the particular installation. > >Roy Lewallen, W7EL Article: 226012 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: gwatts Subject: Re: looking for help with icom725 internal power supply References: <44a759b4$0$22358$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2006 15:30:57 GMT hamguy1 wrote: > hi ham radiogroups, im after the internal power control or alc inside of a > icom725 hf transceiver the radio is doing way to much power for the power > supply, it currently is doing 150 watts it needs to be turned back down to > around 100 watts .thanks in advance david from nsw australia . > > Go to http://www.icom.co.jp/world/support/index.htm click on 'Manuals,' agree to the license, scroll down to 'Amateur,' download the manual for the IC-725, look at page 31 (34 in the Acrobat window). I think you may be interested in 'R210' for the 100W power adjust. Watch the current, 73! W8LNA Article: 226013 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Bob Bob Subject: Re: Affordable way for 1MHz - 4MHz capture and analysis?? References: <1151826130.882886.241330@j8g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> Message-ID: Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2006 10:35:50 -0500 A fast A/D front end on a PC, sampling at a minimum of 8MHz. Use the PC as a DSP engine. I suspect that these would be available as a plug in PCI card... You can get an idea of what this is about by the plethora of sound card based analysis systems now available (with a max sample rate of 44kHz or thereabouts. Depending what you are doing and are real stingy a computer controlled HF receiver and the soundcard interface might do it for you too. Wanna be a bit more specific of your requirements and application? Cheers Bob VK2YQA larsonmedia@gmail.com wrote: > > Anyone have a suggestion for capure and analysis that does not involve > thousands of dollars? > Article: 226014 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Bob Bob Subject: Re: coax test? References: Message-ID: Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2006 10:30:55 -0500 Something else possibly interesting I use to work for a company that amongst other things installed mobile phone base systems. One of the mandatory tests was to sweep the coax >from the TX end after it had been terminated to the antenna. Return loss (SWR) was the major criteria for the test pass but it also showed the location of the impedance discontinuity. (ie in metres from the feedpoint) In most cases this was a cable indentation where it wasnt unwound from the drum carefully, or where the coiled stuff had been laid down flat instead of being kept vertical. (ie was distorted by its own weight) We did have a few cases however where the inside of the inner core had slight amounts of corrosion causing the problem. This was commonly LDF4-50 or LDF5-50 (foam coax a little less and a little more than 1" dia and had an inner core "pipe" with an inside air space. Cheers Bob Sal M. Onella wrote: > Last year I had a case of a Navy shipboard satcom uplink transmission line > that failed its sweep test at one spot near the upper end of the frequency > range ... around 8 GHz. We had to replace it. (AN/WSC-6, for those who know > what that is.) We had the contractor "shoot" it three different times with > different test equipment each time -- always the same. The new line was > fine. Until then, I had never seen a defective cable that was quite so > frequency sensitive! > > Article: 226015 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: ml Subject: Re: coax test? References: Message-ID: Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2006 00:24:56 GMT In article , "Sal M. Onella" wrote: > "ml" wrote in message > news:m-4CB295.22423530062006@news.verizon.net... > > hi > > > > If you buy a length of coax w/connectors on it , either a short jumper > > say 3ft or a run of say 100ft > > > > > > what is an easy way to test the coax as well as the quality of > > termination connector quality? > > > > accuracy is what i am looking for to ensure realibility at 1gig > > "Easy" and "accuracy" may not both come in the same package. Bob Bob is > right but you could also do a swept VSWR. In my experience, it involves a > device called a network analyzer, which sweeps across the band of interest > through a directional coupler at the near end of the cable, into a dummy > load at the far end. It automatically samples the reflected power and > compares it to the forward power to produce the SWR more or less > continuously. (I believe the sweeping is done incrementally, with steps so > small it _appears_ continuous.) > > The resulting info is plotted or displayed as a graph with frequency > left-to-right and VSWR up-and-down, with 1:1 being on the bottom. Some > cable is sold as being "100%" sweep tested" to some upper limit. > > Last year I had a case of a Navy shipboard satcom uplink transmission line > that failed its sweep test at one spot near the upper end of the frequency > range ... around 8 GHz. We had to replace it. (AN/WSC-6, for those who know > what that is.) We had the contractor "shoot" it three different times with > different test equipment each time -- always the same. The new line was > fine. Until then, I had never seen a defective cable that was quite so > frequency sensitive! just wanted to thank everyone for the responce, i wish i had a network analyzer(wasnt that for pc's?) or an coax/ant analyzer however easy wasn't ment to mean common tools that a ham might have i want to buy some used coax to taking adv of price but i need to test it, tnx Article: 226016 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Robert Haston" Subject: Help with NASA / Canaveral helicopter yagi antenna Message-ID: Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2006 00:22:31 GMT I am a pilot in the 301st Rescue Squadron at Patrick AFB, south of Cape Canaveral. We use helicopters to clear boats out of the Space Shuttle and Rocket danger zones off the coast. I've bought some marine band 161-162 MHz (87 & 88 marine band) Automated Identification System (AIS) receivers to receive data transmissions from larger vessels. To maximize the reception of targets up to 60 miles out, I need a somewhat directional antenna, say a 2 or 3 element yagi. The belly of our Blackhawk variant Pavehawk helicopters offers a mount and a 7 foot wide ground plane via the cargo hook on its belly. I can make the mount sideways and reversible so we can track big boats coming at us from the poles while we work all the little sport fishermen that infest the narrow east west azimuth out to 50 miles. What I would like to do is use half of an antenna and use the aircraft as a ground plane to give us more ground clearance and less drag. Here are my questions: 1. Can you use a yagi with elements only on one side when you have a ground plane just like a quarter wave dipole? 2. Would the 17" square hole that the antenna sticks out in the belly of make much of a difference in the ground plane? (this could be remedied). 3. For maximum gain, what needs to be grounded to the helicopter if anything: non radiating elements, the receiver, etc.? 4. What effect does diameter or material of elements have. I figure I can chop down car antennas (my present dipole) which are very cheap and sturdy enough to take 170 MPH winds. 5. What are good sites on making the right antenna? Thanks, I'll be happy to exchange lots of images of the equipment in action in exchange. -- Robert Haston Satellite Beach, FL Article: 226017 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Frank's" References: <5a8da2phgq7ibbk632pbl5ngkkt9eo7070@4ax.com> Subject: Re: Distributed Loaded Monopole-technology based antennas Message-ID: Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2006 00:51:20 GMT "Richard Clark" wrote in message news:5a8da2phgq7ibbk632pbl5ngkkt9eo7070@4ax.com... > On Sat, 01 Jul 2006 17:59:53 +0200, Glenn Møller-Holst > wrote: > >>Regarding a new philosophy for constructing shortened antennas. > > Hi Glenn, > > The term here that seems to fit is poser. It is a variant of poseur > if that term is more familiar. This >>Test Report of U.R.I. DLM ANTENNAS >>By The NAVAL UNDERSEA WARFARE CENTER Of Newport, Rhode Island At The >>NUWC Fishers Island, New York One MileTest Range March 31, 2005. > is notable for having no signature page showing its bona fides. A > University of Rhode Island grade two technician is NOT an authority at > that facility. > > Both the "report" and the other links all show very poor skills at > writing much less reporting. For instance, the "report" completely > omits the characteristic Z of the antenna. Is this antenna range > facility so shy of equipment that this notable specification was left > unmeasured? Even a standard quarter wave radiator is not a 50 Ohm > match. > > This, and the rambling style that wanders the landscape in describing > this invention hardly inspires confidence in this moonlight episode of > using those facilities on the sly. > > 73's > Richard Clark, KB7QHC NEC indicates the input impedance is about 18 ohms for the 40 m model. The gain (with ten 12 ft radials, base 3" above average ground) at 30 deg elevation angle is -3.9 dBi. I used a distributed helix with the GH card, but for the 2nd inductor a lumped element inductor, Q = 300. The value for the 2nd inductor was much higher than the recommended 15 uH. at about 36 uH. An unloaded monopole of the same height, same radial system, has a gain of -2.9 dBi at 30 deg elevation angle. Input impedance 6.2 - j748. A two element matching network, inductor Q 400 (same Q as the base helix) has a loss of 1.7 dB for an overall gain of - 4.6 dBi at 30 deg. Frank Article: 226018 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Robert Haston" References: <2mkog.58280$9c6.45638@dukeread11> Subject: Re: Anyone here think they would pay for a map like this? Message-ID: Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2006 01:10:13 GMT Google Earth will give you the coordinates of a point anywhere. There are lots of free ways to convert lat long to bearing such as trigonometry spreadsheets - or a GPS. Also, the FCC lists stations by lat/long. "Chris W" <1qazse4@cox.net> wrote in message news:2mkog.58280$9c6.45638@dukeread11... >I have created some software to create a radial map to help you know where >to point your antenna. A sample of the map can be seen here... > http://www.thewishzone.com/cdw/hamradio/RadialMap.gif > > Pretty much any part of this map can be customized from the start and end > point of the radials how many degrees apart each one is, having multiple > sets of radials, such as a set every 1 degree from 97 to 100 miles out > with an other set from 5 to 200 miles every 15 degrees. Any number of > sets of any length can be done. As well as circles of any size. All very > easy, just supply the center lat long. I can also print the map any size > up to 42" wide/high. I've never printed had any paper that big on this > printer but I do know it will take paper that big. I would have got a 36" > wide printer but it was too slow, and this one is faster. With the > software I am developing creating the map is very easy but obviously > printing it isn't cheap. > > > > -- > Chris W > KE5GIX > > Gift Giving Made Easy > Get the gifts you want & > give the gifts they want > One stop wish list for any gift, > from anywhere, for any occasion! > http://thewishzone.com Article: 226019 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: nospam@nouce.bellatlantic.net Subject: Re: Help with NASA / Canaveral helicopter yagi antenna Message-ID: <3atga2lanedo1jkc9vm4e2qlht71dce8bm@4ax.com> References: Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2006 01:45:17 GMT On Mon, 03 Jul 2006 00:22:31 GMT, "Robert Haston" wrote: >I am a pilot in the 301st Rescue Squadron at Patrick AFB, south of Cape >Canaveral. We use helicopters to clear boats out of the Space Shuttle and >Rocket danger zones off the coast. > >I've bought some marine band 161-162 MHz (87 & 88 marine band) Automated >Identification System (AIS) receivers to receive data transmissions from >larger vessels. To maximize the reception of targets up to 60 miles out, I >need a somewhat directional antenna, say a 2 or 3 element yagi. > >The belly of our Blackhawk variant Pavehawk helicopters offers a mount and a >7 foot wide ground plane via the cargo hook on its belly. I can make the >mount sideways and reversible so we can track big boats coming at us from >the poles while we work all the little sport fishermen that infest the >narrow east west azimuth out to 50 miles. > >What I would like to do is use half of an antenna and use the aircraft as a >ground plane to give us more ground clearance and less drag. > > Here are my questions: > >1. Can you use a yagi with elements only on one side when you have a ground >plane just like a quarter wave dipole? > >2. Would the 17" square hole that the antenna sticks out in the belly of >make much of a difference in the ground plane? (this could be remedied). > >3. For maximum gain, what needs to be grounded to the helicopter if >anything: non radiating elements, the receiver, etc.? > >4. What effect does diameter or material of elements have. I figure I can >chop down car antennas (my present dipole) which are very cheap and sturdy >enough to take 170 MPH winds. > >5. What are good sites on making the right antenna? > >Thanks, > > I'll be happy to exchange lots of images of the equipment in action in >exchange. Simple solution. Lookup a "Half Square" or "Bobtail" as this would work for VHF and fit you mouning concerns. WWW.CEBIK.COM Is a good site, read down the tales and technicals page to the section on VHF antennas. However, from 4000ft, your line of sight for a simple monopole is sufficient to get you that far out. Hint: if you can communicate with VHF aircraft radio (118-136mhz) at that range VHF marine will also work. For VHF altitude is a valuable assist for range. Allison Article: 226020 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "J. Mc Laughlin" Subject: Re: Sky noise temperature - 2m, 70cm, 23cm Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2006 23:29:33 -0400 Message-ID: <12ah3mat3nt2h0c@corp.supernews.com> References: <2q1a92pkre7o2kc0cechlks7pmh7rlacdn@4ax.com> <129b087sq5uom06@corp.supernews.com> Dear Group: While purging my office for twelve hours today in preparation for a move to another office, I came upon another article that might be of use: "136 MHz/400 MHz Radio-Sky Maps" by Ralph E. Taylor; Proc. of the IEEE; April 1973, pp469-472 Not everything can be found with Google. 73, Mac N8TT "J. Mc Laughlin" wrote in message news:129b087sq5uom06@corp.supernews.com... > Dear Owen: > > W8PIL and I (then W8TBZ) published a paper on this subject in QST using > radio astronomy information. As I recall, the article was published about > June of 1961. He has since retired from NRL and I am still going. > > 73, Mac N8TT > > -- > J. Mc Laughlin; Michigan U.S.A. > Home: JCM@Power-Net.Net > "Owen Duffy" wrote in message > news:2q1a92pkre7o2kc0cechlks7pmh7rlacdn@4ax.com... > > > > Googling about turns up a little, and only a little information on the > > expected sky noise temperature on 2m, 70cm, 23cm. > > > > The information isn't very consistent. For example, articles that talk > > about the sky noise below 200MHz being 100K or more, and amateur > > articles talking about sky noise at 144MHz being "hundreds of > > degrees". > > > > Similary, for 70cm a broad brush figure of 45K seems to be used, and > > others talk about 20K away from the galactic plane and 60K on the > > galactic plane. (Yes, they will be blurred together with a low gain > > antenna.) > > > > Some discussions treat the "sky noise temperature" as if it includes > > spillover noise (eg in cold sky / hot earth measurements). > > > > Can anyone recommend a reliable source of sky noise characteristics > > for these bands. > > > > Additionally, I am interested in the range of ambient noise levels > > experienced for these bands for traditional DX activity (ie antennas > > at zero elevation. > > > > Alternatively, are satellite beacons a reliable source for measuring > > station receive performance? > > > > Or... is there some other better way of measuring station receive > > performance? > > > > Owen > > -- > > Article: 226021 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Tam/WB2TT" References: <1151864918.202153.64940@v61g2000cwv.googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: Creating dual band HF antennas using a loading coils. Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2006 00:24:58 -0400 Message-ID: wrote in message news:1151864918.202153.64940@v61g2000cwv.googlegroups.com... > Here are a couple messages I posted on eHam net. Any comments would be > appreciated. > > Thanks, > > Doug VE3XDB > > -- > MESSAGE #1: > > Hi everyone, > > I am thinking of building a center loaded fan dipole. One wire dipole > to cover 20 and 40 metres, and a second wire diple, connected at the > same feedpoint, to cover 30 and 17 metres. Coils would be placed at the > resonant point of the higher frequency, acting as both an RF choke and > a loading coil. My question is this. I would like to have the wire > beyond the coil as long as possible, but would still like the coil to > have enough inductance to act as an effective RF choke for the higher > band. > > Other than through experimentation, how would one calculate or > determine this mix of inductance/length? > > Best regards, > > Doug VE3XDB Regardless of what you do, this is going to be guaranteed to have lousy bandwidth on 40 meters (and 30, but you don't care). The whole thing might be easier if you have 4 dipoles at a common feedpoint. I haven't tried 4, but did have 3: 40, 17, and 12 meters. You will want to have angular separation between the dipoles, either horizontal or vertical, or a combination. I did not measure it, but probably had about 15 degrees of separation. Tune by trimming the lowest frequency antenna first. If you still want the trap dipoles, you can always buy the traps from places like AES. They will probably come with instructions. With 2 trap dipoles at a common feedpoint, I suspect this will be very difficult to tune. Tam/WB2TT Article: 226022 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "west" References: <129s61p92po1l17@corp.supernews.com> Subject: Re: rf burn Message-ID: <7p2qg.1407$283.597@trnddc08> Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2006 06:01:39 GMT "Frank Alforo" wrote in message news:129s61p92po1l17@corp.supernews.com... > If I touch the coil in my tuner while transmitting I get a painful rf burn. > But a bird can perch on my antenna wire while I transmit 100 watts and it > stays there seemingly without a care in the world. How come? > Because the bird is smarter? west Article: 226023 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Chris W <1qazse4@cox.net> Subject: Re: Anyone here think they would pay for a map like this? References: <2mkog.58280$9c6.45638@dukeread11> Message-ID: Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2006 02:20:45 -0500 Robert Haston wrote: > Google Earth will give you the coordinates of a point anywhere. There are > lots of free ways to convert lat long to bearing such as trigonometry > spreadsheets - or a GPS. I'm obviously not explaining myself very well. I'm not trying to say I have come up with some new revolutionary way to determine what heading some place is from you. The ways of doing that are endless. Which one is best, depends on the situation. Sure there are a number of places you can purchase a map and draw radials on it. However the chances of getting one that covers the area you want it to and having it centered where you want it aren't very good. Drawing all that on a map by hand is just way too much work if you ask me. I just think it is kind of cool to have a large map hanging on my wall centered at my location with radials going out. But hey I just like maps, guess that makes me weird. -- Chris W KE5GIX Gift Giving Made Easy Get the gifts you want & give the gifts they want One stop wish list for any gift, >from anywhere, for any occasion! http://thewishzone.com Article: 226024 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Dave" References: <1151826130.882886.241330@j8g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <1151911048.933052.62950@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: Affordable way for 1MHz - 4MHz capture and analysis?? Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2006 12:09:29 -0000 Message-ID: i wouldn't touch something like this with a ham tranceiver. not enough control or calibration. also, now you are talking of 2 different things. a transmitter that is sending the data/power, and your need to monitor for the presence of a signal independently. for monitoring for the presence of a signal across a bandwidth like that (really 570hz or is that 570khz??) you need something like a spectrum analyzer with an appropriate wide band antenna, go check with some emi testing labs for the type of equipment they use. you will quickly learn that unless you are doing this in a shielded room there are LOTS of signals in that range that will show up. you also need to better state your requirements... 'duration and length' of exposure are the same thing and do not describe the whole problem. you must also measure the field strength (probably at a couple of locations) and frequency in addition to time. it sounds like you are not familiar enough with the terminology, equipment, or methods, to take on such a job that could be related to safety... get professional rf safety help NOW or you may need a professional lawyer in the future. wrote in message news:1151911048.933052.62950@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com... > Specifically, the application is one which uses a HAM radio transciever > utilizing approx 20W-100W power and a Class E transmitter to drive > data signals and power from an external coil to a series of smaller > receiver coils which are implanted in biological tissue for biomedical > application. I have to police/enforce the research personnel to ensure > limits regarding std practices are not exceeded in regards to duration > and length of RF exposure fothe patient. Of course I need to do this > independently, because in this situation relying on their "good word" > or verbal agreement isn't sufficient. I have to be able to be able to > 1.) determine if there is a 570Hz to 4MHz signal present, and 2.) > determine if it is encoded or modulated to carry the power and data > signals. Not up my alley exactly, but I need to get it done. If there > is an expansion card or USB interface device for PC, that would be > preferable to aquiring an entire HAM rig. Any help appreciated. - Lars > > > Bob Bob wrote: >> A fast A/D front end on a PC, sampling at a minimum of 8MHz. Use the PC >> as a DSP engine. I suspect that these would be available as a plug in >> PCI card... >> >> You can get an idea of what this is about by the plethora of sound card >> based analysis systems now available (with a max sample rate of 44kHz or >> thereabouts. Depending what you are doing and are real stingy a computer >> controlled HF receiver and the soundcard interface might do it for you >> too. >> >> Wanna be a bit more specific of your requirements and application? >> >> Cheers Bob VK2YQA >> >> larsonmedia@gmail.com wrote: >> > >> > Anyone have a suggestion for capure and analysis that does not involve >> > thousands of dollars? >> > > Article: 226025 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "J. Mc Laughlin" Subject: Re: HFTA-ARRL-Space Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2006 09:42:51 -0400 Message-ID: <12ai7k7g6jom09b@corp.supernews.com> References: <52ec8$44a69065$453d9423$8142@FUSE.NET> <3bjea2pjtija9e759p6sgua4vvtcv1udqt@4ax.com> Dear Reg: You have articulated one of the many reasons why HF propagation is described in stochastic terms. As you know very well, measurements or predictions comprise at least two numbers: the best estimate of the number and an estimate of the uncertainty of the first number. Present models of HF propagation, which include antenna characteristics, provide both numbers. Early models of HF propagation tended to be somewhat deficient in providing the second number. However, I remember using the early models to predict (extrapolate) in real-time how much longer a certain frequency was likely to remain usable >from noting the drop-out of a higher frequency. The physics involved has been understood for many years. It takes a long period of data gathering to be able to do a good job with the second number. In the early days (post WW2) of radio astronomy, the uncertainties of some important measurements were greater than the estimate. That did not last. 73 Mac N8TT P.S. Nice to know that W2DU is back. -- J. Mc Laughlin; Michigan U.S.A. Home: JCM@Power-Net.Net "Reg Edwards" wrote in message news:QLydnZePUuOZKDrZRVnyhw@bt.com... > > > > But is it actually reflection? > > > > no, it is actually a refraction. but it is useful sometimes to > model it as > > a reflection from a slightly higher level. that makes computation > of angles > > of incidence and height a bit easier. > > ============================================ > The trigonometry is quite simple. Things become complicated when the > reflecting layer is not horizontal, ie., the layer is tilted. > > The angle and direction of tilt are very difficult to predict. > Consequently, where on the surface of the Earth a ray returns is > anybody's guess. > > This makes the vertical take-off angle, reported by antenna modelling > programs, even less useful. > ---- > Reg. > > Article: 226026 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2006 09:04:34 -0700 From: Tim Wescott Subject: Re: Help with NASA / Canaveral helicopter yagi antenna References: <3atga2lanedo1jkc9vm4e2qlht71dce8bm@4ax.com> Message-ID: nospam@nouce.bellatlantic.net wrote: > On Mon, 03 Jul 2006 00:22:31 GMT, "Robert Haston" > wrote: > > >>I am a pilot in the 301st Rescue Squadron at Patrick AFB, south of Cape >>Canaveral. We use helicopters to clear boats out of the Space Shuttle and >>Rocket danger zones off the coast. >> >>I've bought some marine band 161-162 MHz (87 & 88 marine band) Automated >>Identification System (AIS) receivers to receive data transmissions from >>larger vessels. To maximize the reception of targets up to 60 miles out, I >>need a somewhat directional antenna, say a 2 or 3 element yagi. >> >>The belly of our Blackhawk variant Pavehawk helicopters offers a mount and a >>7 foot wide ground plane via the cargo hook on its belly. I can make the >>mount sideways and reversible so we can track big boats coming at us from >>the poles while we work all the little sport fishermen that infest the >>narrow east west azimuth out to 50 miles. >> >>What I would like to do is use half of an antenna and use the aircraft as a >>ground plane to give us more ground clearance and less drag. >> >>Here are my questions: >> >>1. Can you use a yagi with elements only on one side when you have a ground >>plane just like a quarter wave dipole? >> >>2. Would the 17" square hole that the antenna sticks out in the belly of >>make much of a difference in the ground plane? (this could be remedied). >> >>3. For maximum gain, what needs to be grounded to the helicopter if >>anything: non radiating elements, the receiver, etc.? >> >>4. What effect does diameter or material of elements have. I figure I can >>chop down car antennas (my present dipole) which are very cheap and sturdy >>enough to take 170 MPH winds. >> >>5. What are good sites on making the right antenna? >> >>Thanks, >> >>I'll be happy to exchange lots of images of the equipment in action in >>exchange. > > > Simple solution. Lookup a "Half Square" or "Bobtail" as this would > work for VHF and fit you mouning concerns. > > WWW.CEBIK.COM Is a good site, read down the tales and technicals page > to the section on VHF antennas. > > However, from 4000ft, your line of sight for a simple monopole is > sufficient to get you that far out. Hint: if you can communicate with > VHF aircraft radio (118-136mhz) at that range VHF marine will also > work. For VHF altitude is a valuable assist for range. > > Allison > I believe that a helicopter pilot's nose starts bleeding at 1000ft -- at least that's what my fixed-wing pilot friends tell me. -- Tim Wescott Wescott Design Services http://www.wescottdesign.com Posting from Google? See http://cfaj.freeshell.org/google/ "Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" came out in April. See details at http://www.wescottdesign.com/actfes/actfes.html Article: 226027 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Bob Bob Subject: Re: Affordable way for 1MHz - 4MHz capture and analysis?? References: <1151826130.882886.241330@j8g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <1151911048.933052.62950@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com> Message-ID: Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2006 10:35:47 -0500 This looks like an interesting project! Not quite what I was thinking in my original answer. I think your requirement is a lot simpler and cheaper. A yes no indicator for RF between 570Hz and 4Mhz should be relatively easy, especially if it is a large signal in comparison to the ambient level. You could probably do it with a band pass filter network, a few transistors and some kind of display device (eg a LED). Some sensitivity calibratation over the freq range will need doing and maybe a subsequent adjustment to the BPF. Determining if it is encoded depends on how it is encoded. If it creates pulses of a known PRF then a simple AM receiver to detect the envelope, followed by whatever ever band pass at the PRF and a subsequent display device. I cant comment on this further without knowing how you modulate. Both circuits could be mounted in a box with an "RF detected" and "Modulated signal detected" LED along with a resetable timer. You are talking maybe $30 worth of parts! Note that you will need to test its susceptability to other RF in the area so it doesnt give false readings. One assumes you want to log the above events? For that a PC can be used for with a simple low rate data acquisition module or even via the parallel port pins. As horrible as it sounds using an old clunker and a DOS version with debug will allow you to poll the printer port and print a report on completion. You can also do it with the normal tools in a current Linux versions. I think software would need to be written for a Windows environment. Probably already exists as GPL. Shd be pretty simple to write though if not. The above assumes you dont need to measure the actual exposure level.. You might be interested to know that back in the early 1980's I was involved in medical ultrasound. Most of our products were for imaging and doppler. We were however developing a higher energy device for focussed heating on cancerous etc areas. The initial tests were done with a beefed up transducer (about 50mm dia a 5mm thick) in a water bath and excited with an old Yaesu FT101B transceiver on about 3.6MHz! It was impressive to watch it boiling the surface of the water. It looked like a 360 degree waterfall.. If you want to go down the separate radio and PC device have a look at the Winradio (or similar) boxes. They use a PC as control and display for an external box with an RS232 and antenna port on it. Dont know about the software side of this though. Cheers Bob VK2YQA lars121@gmail.com wrote: > > Specifically, the application is one which uses a HAM radio transciever > utilizing approx 20W-100W power and a Class E transmitter to drive > data signals and power from an external coil to a series of smaller > receiver coils which are implanted in biological tissue for biomedical > application. I have to police/enforce the research personnel to ensure > limits regarding std practices are not exceeded in regards to duration > and length of RF exposure fothe patient. Of course I need to do this > independently, because in this situation relying on their "good word" > or verbal agreement isn't sufficient. I have to be able to be able to > 1.) determine if there is a 570Hz to 4MHz signal present, and 2.) > determine if it is encoded or modulated to carry the power and data > signals. Not up my alley exactly, but I need to get it done. If there > is an expansion card or USB interface device for PC, that would be > preferable to aquiring an entire HAM rig. Any help appreciated. - Lars > Article: 226028 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2006 09:23:36 -0700 From: Tim Wescott Subject: Re: Help with NASA / Canaveral helicopter yagi antenna References: Message-ID: Robert Haston wrote: > I am a pilot in the 301st Rescue Squadron at Patrick AFB, south of Cape > Canaveral. We use helicopters to clear boats out of the Space Shuttle and > Rocket danger zones off the coast. > > I've bought some marine band 161-162 MHz (87 & 88 marine band) Automated > Identification System (AIS) receivers to receive data transmissions from > larger vessels. To maximize the reception of targets up to 60 miles out, I > need a somewhat directional antenna, say a 2 or 3 element yagi. > > The belly of our Blackhawk variant Pavehawk helicopters offers a mount and a > 7 foot wide ground plane via the cargo hook on its belly. I can make the > mount sideways and reversible so we can track big boats coming at us from > the poles while we work all the little sport fishermen that infest the > narrow east west azimuth out to 50 miles. > > What I would like to do is use half of an antenna and use the aircraft as a > ground plane to give us more ground clearance and less drag. > > Here are my questions: > > 1. Can you use a yagi with elements only on one side when you have a ground > plane just like a quarter wave dipole? In theory, with a perfectly flat perfectly conducting infinite plane -- yes. In practice -- probably. You could spend a bunch of time messing with EzNEC or other antenna modeling software, or you could just give this a try. > > 2. Would the 17" square hole that the antenna sticks out in the belly of > make much of a difference in the ground plane? (this could be remedied). > Oh yes. If possible you should make the antenna's ground plane electrically contiguous with the skin of the heli, which should itself be electrically contiguous -- I'm not sure if you can count on that being the case. > 3. For maximum gain, what needs to be grounded to the helicopter if > anything: non radiating elements, the receiver, etc.? All of above. For this to work in theory you need to have the center of each element well grounded to your ground plane. > > 4. What effect does diameter or material of elements have. I figure I can > chop down car antennas (my present dipole) which are very cheap and sturdy > enough to take 170 MPH winds. In general elements need to get shorter as they get fatter, and the bandwidth goes up. > > 5. What are good sites on making the right antenna? > Dunno, Google on "Yagi". If it were me I'd get a copy of the ARRL Handbook or antenna book, copy a compact 2m yagi from that and scale it as appropriate for the new wavelength. -- Tim Wescott Wescott Design Services http://www.wescottdesign.com Posting from Google? See http://cfaj.freeshell.org/google/ "Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" came out in April. See details at http://www.wescottdesign.com/actfes/actfes.html Article: 226029 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Michael Coslo Subject: Re: All Band Coax-fed Dipole ?????????? Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2006 12:24:34 -0400 Message-ID: References: <449e9959$0$16418$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> <12a21gtrbsfkf63@corp.supernews.com> <3s44a2dbc1aqbvgph1o7a3b60h0rkpt6o2@4ax.com> <2kd5a2djg2e651n4bpe6o7c4e0vvdkn93v@4ax.com> <4s6dnekOK9iOqT7ZnZ2dnUVZ_sOdnZ2d@adelphia.com> <12a6ig7ghnskr92@corp.supernews.com> <12a9b7dqlb92he0@corp.supernews.com> <44a58e0f$0$16357$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> Mike Coslo wrote: > gravity wrote: >> "Michael Coslo" wrote in message >> news:e841jg$1b9i$1@f04n12.cac.psu.edu... >> >> >>> As a *very* loose definition of work, I would say that I would expect >>> an antenna that advertises itself as an "all band" would allow a modern >>> Transceiver to put our something like full power, that is, to not fold >>> back on power. Oh yeah, and to radiate something. I don't see a tuner in >>> that diagram, so take your pick whether they are assuming an internal >> >> tuner. >> >> >> if i bought a similar antenna, i'd assume i'd need a tuner. i mean i >> needed >> one with my 120 foot (60 + 60) foot doublet. you don't even need a real >> fancy tuner, mine was a small Yaesu digital. it did have some >> problems on >> 40 meters (high Z?). > > That antenna *would* work okay with ladder line, and a tuner that > could handle the same. > > I decided to do something really radical. I just sent off an email > to BuxComm to ask just what type of antenna it is.... Tech support at BuxComm emailed me back, and the antenna is indeed *not* an OCF. It is an equal leg length antenna. My deduction was incorrect. What an odd antenna! I was referred to a similar antenna in the ARRL handbook, although I'll note that it used ladder line instead of a balun and coax. The response was very prompt and courteous, and although I could see myself buying some of their other antennas, I think I'll pass on that one! 8^) - 73 de Mike KB3EIA - Article: 226030 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: nospam@nouce.bellatlantic.net Subject: Re: Help with NASA / Canaveral helicopter yagi antenna Message-ID: References: <3atga2lanedo1jkc9vm4e2qlht71dce8bm@4ax.com> Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2006 16:33:29 GMT On Mon, 03 Jul 2006 09:04:34 -0700, Tim Wescott wrote: >nospam@nouce.bellatlantic.net wrote: >> On Mon, 03 Jul 2006 00:22:31 GMT, "Robert Haston" >> wrote: >> >> >>>I am a pilot in the 301st Rescue Squadron at Patrick AFB, south of Cape >>>Canaveral. We use helicopters to clear boats out of the Space Shuttle and >>>Rocket danger zones off the coast. >>> >>>I've bought some marine band 161-162 MHz (87 & 88 marine band) Automated >>>Identification System (AIS) receivers to receive data transmissions from >>>larger vessels. To maximize the reception of targets up to 60 miles out, I >>>need a somewhat directional antenna, say a 2 or 3 element yagi. >>> >>>The belly of our Blackhawk variant Pavehawk helicopters offers a mount and a >>>7 foot wide ground plane via the cargo hook on its belly. I can make the >>>mount sideways and reversible so we can track big boats coming at us from >>>the poles while we work all the little sport fishermen that infest the >>>narrow east west azimuth out to 50 miles. >>> >>>What I would like to do is use half of an antenna and use the aircraft as a >>>ground plane to give us more ground clearance and less drag. >>> >>>Here are my questions: >>> >>>1. Can you use a yagi with elements only on one side when you have a ground >>>plane just like a quarter wave dipole? >>> >>>2. Would the 17" square hole that the antenna sticks out in the belly of >>>make much of a difference in the ground plane? (this could be remedied). >>> >>>3. For maximum gain, what needs to be grounded to the helicopter if >>>anything: non radiating elements, the receiver, etc.? >>> >>>4. What effect does diameter or material of elements have. I figure I can >>>chop down car antennas (my present dipole) which are very cheap and sturdy >>>enough to take 170 MPH winds. >>> >>>5. What are good sites on making the right antenna? >>> >>>Thanks, >>> >>>I'll be happy to exchange lots of images of the equipment in action in >>>exchange. >> >> >> Simple solution. Lookup a "Half Square" or "Bobtail" as this would >> work for VHF and fit you mouning concerns. >> >> WWW.CEBIK.COM Is a good site, read down the tales and technicals page >> to the section on VHF antennas. >> >> However, from 4000ft, your line of sight for a simple monopole is >> sufficient to get you that far out. Hint: if you can communicate with >> VHF aircraft radio (118-136mhz) at that range VHF marine will also >> work. For VHF altitude is a valuable assist for range. >> >> Allison >> >I believe that a helicopter pilot's nose starts bleeding at 1000ft -- at >least that's what my fixed-wing pilot friends tell me. ;) I be a fixed wing pilot. My best friends are rotorheads and 4000 is not that high. When you get to 8000 and above then they have issues. However the real reason for choppers is low means you see what's down there. They don't like high for another reason, that being fuel to get up there. The military boys can hit 8000+ no sweat. I took a 1.5W dual bander flying once for laughs. From 4500ft I could key up any repeater in NE! Of course ask your flying friends what unicom (122.7, 122.8, 122.9) sound like on the AC radios at those alts. Usually from mid MA I can hear unicom stations and airplanes in the pattern in northern NJ. Height is good! Allison Article: 226031 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Win Subject: Re: Help with NASA / Canaveral helicopter yagi antenna Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2006 11:49:19 -0500 Message-ID: <62iia2t15d7jvpa0qnlnjkcemmq3bh5685@4ax.com> References: Robert, I think I would get my hands on another militart type (aerodynamic) vhf aircraft antenna and then have my aircraft electronics shop cut it down for your frequence and then install it. You know from your air-to-ground VHF communications what to expect >from it. I don't think you can do much better than that. Over water, at any altitude above a few hundred feet MSL, I would think it would cover your area of interest. Win, w0lz Article: 226032 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "John Passaneau" References: <1151864918.202153.64940@v61g2000cwv.googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: Creating dual band HF antennas using a loading coils. Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2006 13:28:05 -0400 Message-ID: <0NudnW-tK-07zjTZnZ2dnUVZ_tGdnZ2d@adelphia.com> My antenna for 160/80/40/30 is as follows: 160m loaded dipole shortened to 200' with 30uHy inductors so it will fit in the lot. 80/40 parallel fan full size dipoles at right angles to 160m dipole 30m the loading coils on the 160m dipole act as RFC's or traps on 30m to isolate the center section of the dipole as a full size dipole on 30m. All with a common feed point through a home brew 1:1 current balun. I was modeling the whole array before moving the loading coils in EZNEC and noticed that I had a near perfect resonate point at about 6MHz defined by the loading coils on the shortened 160m dipoles center loading coils. As this is in a shortwave broadcast band it was hitting the front end of my radio with very strong signals. As I'm a DXer I didn't like the idea that strong out of band signals may have been degrading my in band receive performance. The idea of moving the coils in to make a 30m dipole came to me as a good way to fix the problem and give me a antenna on a band I had no antenna for. To keep the length of the 160 dipole at 200' when moving the loading coils in to make 30m dipole required increasing the inductance to 30uHy's. The SWR is a reasonable 1.2:1 and seems to work quite well. As 160 and 30m are the only bands I don't have DXCC on, I'm making good progress on 30m to getting it, not so good on 160m as I don't have an amplifier on 160m. -- John Passaneau W3JXP State College Pa. w3jxp@adelphia.net wrote in message news:1151864918.202153.64940@v61g2000cwv.googlegroups.com... > Here are a couple messages I posted on eHam net. Any comments would be > appreciated. > > Thanks, > > Doug VE3XDB > > -- > MESSAGE #1: > > Hi everyone, > > I am thinking of building a center loaded fan dipole. One wire dipole > to cover 20 and 40 metres, and a second wire diple, connected at the > same feedpoint, to cover 30 and 17 metres. Coils would be placed at the > resonant point of the higher frequency, acting as both an RF choke and > a loading coil. My question is this. I would like to have the wire > beyond the coil as long as possible, but would still like the coil to > have enough inductance to act as an effective RF choke for the higher > band. > > Other than through experimentation, how would one calculate or > determine this mix of inductance/length? > > Best regards, > > Doug VE3XDB > > -- > MESSAGE #2: > > Thanks for your replies. I know the technique does work. The Alpha > Delta DX-CC puts a loading coil at the end of a 40 meter dipole, and > adds about 9 feet of wire past the coil. This creates a dipole that > resonates on 40 and 80 meters. Here is a link: > > http://www.alphadeltacom.com/pg1.htm > > As well, coil loaded HF antennas are described in "The Radio Amateur > Antenna Handbook" by Bill Orr W6SAI and Stuart Cowan W2LX (Published in > 1993 by Radio Amateur Callbook, a Division of BPI Communications Inc., > pages 147 to 151). > > Typical dual band antennas, of the type used for 2 meter/70 cm > operation mobile are coil-loaded whips. Reg G4FGQ wrote a program > called LOADCOIL.EXE that calculates the characteristics of a loading > coil at any point on an antenna radiator of a given length. > > I know the length of wire necessary to resonant the antenna at the > higher frequency, and can figure out the coil required based on the > length of wire past the coil. What I don't know is what is the maximum > wire length, and therefore minimum inductance, necessary to have the > antenna resonate on 2 bands. > > Here is what I calculated, using Reg's program. > > 20-40 meter combination (resonant at 14.150 and 7.150 MHz) > > Feedpoint to coil 16.54' > Coil 17.73 uH > Coil to end of antenna 7.46' > > 30-17 meter combination (resonant at 10.120 and 18.100) > > Feedpoint to coil 12.93' > Coil 11.21 uH > Coil to end of antenna 5.07' > > This creates an antenna that is about 75% full size on 30 and 40 > meters, full size on 17 and 20 meters. > > What I'm trying to determine is the maximum length of the radiator (and > minimum inducatance) necessary to achieve dual band capability. > > Any insights? > > Best regards, > > Doug VE3XDB > Article: 226033 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Chuck Olson" Subject: Re: Resonant Stub Measurement Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2006 11:14:56 -0700 Message-ID: I made some comparison measurements between various twinlead types after experiencing some difficulty in obtaining a 1:1 SWR in a Slim Jim 2M J-Pole using Channel Master 9354 Vinyl / Polyfoam 300-ohm cable I bought at Fry's. The enhancement/absorption disturbance of the coupled signal (see previous post, below) by the 1/4-wave stub measured 6.7 dB with the CM cable, while some old Belden 8225 ribbon-type 300-ohm cable showed an 11.6 dB peak to valley measurement and 450-ohm ladder line using 18 ga solid conductors displayed a huge 35.8 dB effect. I believe the magnitude of the phenomenon is partly related to the Q of the resonant stub, and in turn to its ability to reach a high enough impedance at the open end to match the end impedance of the 1/2-wave radiator. And of course, surrounding the stub with PVC tubing reduces the effect a bit, so that the CM cable peak-to-valley measurement goes to 6.0 dB. I found fair success in wrapping the Belden 8225 stub section with some 1/8" thick foam sheet one can buy from a packing and shipping store to stabilize the effect of PVC tubing on the Velocity Factor of this cable. I cut a 1.5" wide strip from a 24" wide foam sheet and fastened the wrap with Mylar tape every 2.5" above the feed tap to keep the conductors spaced away from the PVC wall. My final design had a 16.53" stub, 38.65" radiator, Feed tap at 1.75" and gap of 0.25", resulting in a 1.0 SWR at 145.48 MHz with R = 53 and X = 2 on the MFJ-269 Analyzer, and a 2:1 SWR bandwidth of 7.16 MHz (141.80 to 148.96 MHz). The best SWR I could get with the Channel Master 9354, using a similar foam wrap inside the PVC was 1.3 at 145.98 MHz. This design had a 16.375" stub, 37.88" radiator, 1.625 feed tap and 0.375 gap. Its 2:1 SWR bandwidth was 5.08 MHz (143.72 to 148.80 MHz). Of course both Slim Jim J-Poles will work well when applied at a suitable height, so don't lament too deeply the scarcity of Belden twinlead - - but if you see any at a swapmeet, it might be worthwhile to replenish your supply. 73, Chuck, W6PKP "Chuck Olson" wrote in message news:NPCdnemFTdwxig7ZnZ2dnUVZ_vydnZ2d@comcast.com... > I think I've found a way to measure the resonant frequency of a shorted stub > for the purpose of determining the Velocity Factor of twinlead cable. > Unfortunately it requires the use of an HP3577A Network Analyzer, but I > latched on to a used one a few years ago on Ebay, so I can have all kinds of > fun with it. But there's a question of how to interpret the results. > > I use two small one turn Faraday-shielded loops that I made out of RG58 a > while back to induce or detect signals in various circuitry. For the purpose > of this measurement, I loosely couple two of them, one from the analyzer > source and the other to its receiver, about 4" apart with the loops parallel > and axially aligned. Then I introduce the stub midway into the space between > the loops, oriented for a maximum effect and observe a small peak followed > by a small dip in the received spectrum sweep. My question is, which is the > true measurement of the resonance of the stub - - the peak or the dip or the > zero-crossing between them, and why? Up to now, I've felt the dip is the > correct feature to use, since at resonance the stub patently steals a little > energy from the coupled fields, but that doesn't really say why it steals > energy, or why the peak isn't just as valid an indicator. > > Thanks for your help, > > Chuck, W6PKP > > Article: 226034 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Owen Duffy Subject: Re: All Band Coax-fed Dipole ?????????? Message-ID: <5a3ja21goet743mo32ebnnbmkd2tvr7mr6@4ax.com> References: <2kd5a2djg2e651n4bpe6o7c4e0vvdkn93v@4ax.com> <4s6dnekOK9iOqT7ZnZ2dnUVZ_sOdnZ2d@adelphia.com> <12a6ig7ghnskr92@corp.supernews.com> <12a9b7dqlb92he0@corp.supernews.com> <44a58e0f$0$16357$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2006 21:41:57 GMT On Mon, 03 Jul 2006 12:24:34 -0400, Michael Coslo wrote: >Tech support at BuxComm emailed me back, and the antenna is indeed >*not* an OCF. It is an equal leg length antenna. My deduction was incorrect. Thanks Mike... Owen -- Article: 226035 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: bob@coolgroups.com Subject: VHF signals Date: 3 Jul 2006 17:56:49 -0700 Message-ID: <1151974609.070027.256830@a14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> How far away from viewers are VHF signals typically broadcast? (i.e. up to 1000 miles) Article: 226036 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2006 21:57:01 -0400 From: Mike Coslo Subject: Re: VHF signals References: <1151974609.070027.256830@a14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> Message-ID: bob@coolgroups.com wrote: > How far away from viewers are VHF signals typically broadcast? > (i.e. up to 1000 miles) Pretty much line of sight is the rule at VHF and above. The line of sight is baaed on the curvature of the earth, and modified by the respective heights of the two stations. A nice little on-line calculator is at: http://www.qsl.net/kd4sai/distance.html enter the heights of the two antennas, and it will calculate the distance that you can expect to cover. Sometimes there are propagation effects that will dramatically extend the range, but these are the exception not the rule, and although amateurs have a lot of fun with the effect, it isn't reliable for any length of time. - 73 de Mike KB3EIA - Article: 226037 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Buck Subject: Re: Creating dual band HF antennas using a loading coils. Message-ID: References: <1151864918.202153.64940@v61g2000cwv.googlegroups.com> Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2006 23:51:47 -0400 On Sun, 2 Jul 2006 18:43:35 -0000, "Dave" wrote: >you don't want to think 'loading coils' you want to think 'traps'. they are >two very different animals. loading coils are simply inductors that make >the wire look longer electrically so you don't need as much room. traps are >resonant circuits that exhibit a very large impedance at their tuned >frequency so that it cuts off part of the antenna. usually you use a trap >for multi-band dipoles, the first trap out from the center is tuned to cut >off the outside of the element at the highest frequency, and then at lower >frequencies it looks more like a small inductor so helps a bit as a loading >coil on the lower band. > > Actually, if you check the ARRL antenna handbook or the annual handbook, or maybe even the web site, they have a dual band 80/40 meter dipole that uses loading coils instead of traps. One version uses a drop wire at the end of the 40 meter band to trim without moving the coils or adjusting the 80 meter frequency. I haven't tried it, but I have seen other antennas designed on it's principal, mainly vertical 1/4 wave antennas, but they worked so I see no reason the dipole shouldn't. Will the fan-dual-band dipole work? I suspect so. However, I highly suspect that the parallel dipole (a fan with the elements 6-8 inches below each other) will work better. Good luck Buck -- 73 for now Buck N4PGW Article: 226038 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: VHF signals From: Dave Oldridge References: <1151974609.070027.256830@a14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> Message-ID: Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2006 04:26:08 GMT Mike Coslo wrote in news:AKadnTi3lLttVzTZnZ2dnUVZ_vednZ2d@adelphia.com: > bob@coolgroups.com wrote: >> How far away from viewers are VHF signals typically broadcast? >> (i.e. up to 1000 miles) > Pretty much line of sight is the rule at VHF and above. The line of > sight is baaed on the curvature of the earth, and modified by the > respective heights of the two stations. > > A nice little on-line calculator is at: > > http://www.qsl.net/kd4sai/distance.html > > enter the heights of the two antennas, and it will calculate the > distance that you can expect to cover. > > > Sometimes there are propagation effects that will dramatically > extend > the range, but these are the exception not the rule, and although > amateurs have a lot of fun with the effect, it isn't reliable for any > length of time. Yep...and tropo scatter, the only RELIABLE long-haul VHF mode is way too weak for TV broadcasting, though it does work great on CW or SSB with good antennas and equipment. When I had a 19el antenna at 85 feet in Nova Scotia, I could reliably work Cape Cod, 500 miles away, on 2m CW. But it took high selectivity, and a good preamp even with that antenna and both stations running about 600 watts out. About 60db overall path gain over a 1w signal. Plus the bandwidth gain from TV to CW is about an additional 48db. -- Dave Oldridge+ ICQ 1800667 Article: 226039 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Owen Duffy Subject: Re: Creating dual band HF antennas using a loading coils. Message-ID: References: <1151864918.202153.64940@v61g2000cwv.googlegroups.com> Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2006 05:13:25 GMT On Sun, 2 Jul 2006 18:43:35 -0000, "Dave" wrote: >you don't want to think 'loading coils' you want to think 'traps'. they are >two very different animals. loading coils are simply inductors that make >the wire look longer electrically so you don't need as much room. traps are >resonant circuits that exhibit a very large impedance at their tuned >frequency so that it cuts off part of the antenna. usually you use a trap >for multi-band dipoles, the first trap out from the center is tuned to cut >off the outside of the element at the highest frequency, and then at lower >frequencies it looks more like a small inductor so helps a bit as a loading >coil on the lower band. Yes, but the trap (which is a parallel tuned circuit) doesn't need to be resonant in one of the operating bands, and there are reasons for choosing resonance other than at an operating frequency. For example, you can design a 40/80 trapped antenna that uses a trap resonant around 6MHz. Such a configuration requires a bit more complex explanation than the trap "cutting off" part of the antenna (which it doesn't do anyway). Owen -- Article: 226040 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Message-ID: <44A9F979.4050207@rickfrazier.com> Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2006 19:15:37 -1000 From: Rick Frazier Subject: Re: Anyone here think they would pay for a map like this? References: <2mkog.58280$9c6.45638@dukeread11> I suppose someone that didn't have a PC available to run DXATLAS might want a wall map. For myself, wall space is at a premium, so anything that I can do with the PC is better for me than a wall map. DxAtlas (available shareware at dxatlas.com, $29.95 registration after some preview time) provides a wealth of information relative to what you are describing. Not only can you set it for your QTH and display the world as a map, you can click on a given location and it will give you the bearing heading and distance! It also integrates well with other packages such as IonoProbe, and a large group of other programs... All much more useful than a wall map, in my estimation... Thanks --Rick AH7H Chris W wrote: > Robert Haston wrote: > >> Google Earth will give you the coordinates of a point anywhere. There >> are lots of free ways to convert lat long to bearing such as >> trigonometry spreadsheets - or a GPS. > > > I'm obviously not explaining myself very well. I'm not trying to say I > have come up with some new revolutionary way to determine what heading > some place is from you. The ways of doing that are endless. Which one > is best, depends on the situation. Sure there are a number of places > you can purchase a map and draw radials on it. However the chances of > getting one that covers the area you want it to and having it centered > where you want it aren't very good. Drawing all that on a map by hand > is just way too much work if you ask me. I just think it is kind of > cool to have a large map hanging on my wall centered at my location with > radials going out. But hey I just like maps, guess that makes me weird. > > Article: 226041 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Roy Lewallen Subject: Re: Creating dual band HF antennas using a loading coils. Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2006 22:16:07 -0700 Message-ID: <12ajucp4in6plfb@corp.supernews.com> References: <1151864918.202153.64940@v61g2000cwv.googlegroups.com> Owen Duffy wrote: > On Sun, 2 Jul 2006 18:43:35 -0000, "Dave" wrote: > >> you don't want to think 'loading coils' you want to think 'traps'. they are >> two very different animals. loading coils are simply inductors that make >> the wire look longer electrically so you don't need as much room. traps are >> resonant circuits that exhibit a very large impedance at their tuned >> frequency so that it cuts off part of the antenna. usually you use a trap >> for multi-band dipoles, the first trap out from the center is tuned to cut >> off the outside of the element at the highest frequency, and then at lower >> frequencies it looks more like a small inductor so helps a bit as a loading >> coil on the lower band. > > Yes, but the trap (which is a parallel tuned circuit) doesn't need to > be resonant in one of the operating bands, and there are reasons for > choosing resonance other than at an operating frequency. For example, > you can design a 40/80 trapped antenna that uses a trap resonant > around 6MHz. > > Such a configuration requires a bit more complex explanation than the > trap "cutting off" part of the antenna (which it doesn't do anyway). I believe that the W3DZZ antenna uses this principle to get a reasonable match on several bands with only one pair of "traps". Roy Lewallen, W7EL Article: 226042 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Reg Edwards" References: <1151864918.202153.64940@v61g2000cwv.googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: Creating dual band HF antennas using a loading coils. Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2006 06:44:10 +0100 Message-ID: "Owen Duffy" wrote > Yes, but the trap (which is a parallel tuned circuit) doesn't need to > be resonant in one of the operating bands, and there are reasons for > choosing resonance other than at an operating frequency. For example, > you can design a 40/80 trapped antenna that uses a trap resonant > around 6MHz. > ====================================== Use program NOTATRAP. The parallel tuned circuit is not a trap at either of the operating frequencies. Its resonant frequency lies in between the two operating frequencies. The two operating frequencies do not necessarily have to be harmonically related. ---- ........................................................... Regards from Reg, G4FGQ For Free Radio Design Software go to http://www.btinternet.com/~g4fgq.regp ........................................................... Article: 226043 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: w8ji@akorn.net Subject: Re: Distributed Loaded Monopole-technology based antennas Date: 4 Jul 2006 04:48:10 -0700 Message-ID: <1152013689.783086.209020@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com> References: Glenn M=F8ller-Holst wrote: > Regarding a new philosophy for constructing shortened antennas. What is new about it? That same scheme has been used since the 70's on CB antennas. > Have somebody experience with Distributed Loaded Monopole-technology > based antennas. > Please look on slide number 10, 19, 24, 53: > http://www.uri.edu/news/vincent/boxboro_files/frame.htm > > Slide 25 shows how it is constructed: > http://www.uri.edu/news/vincent/boxboro_files/frame.htm > > According to the following test, the antenna should be good - and maybe > better than other shortened antennas. 70% efficiency for a 1/4 wave > shortened antenna, is that good?: All of his measurements are seriously lacking substance. I wouldn't trust them. To answer your question, there is NOTHING that indicates his method improves performance, and a great deal that indicates it is far from an optimum system. > > April 28, 2005 Navy gives URI's small antenna big results > http://www.uri.edu/news/releases/?id=3D3126 > Quote: "... > In addition, the gain of Vincent's capacity Top Hat DLM antenna, which > incorporates a helix, a load coil, a capacitive top hat utilizing radial > spokes at the top of the antenna and a horizontal plane was nearly > identical to the ideal quarter wave antenna. Its bandwidth was greater > than 5 percent of the operating frequency and the antenna is more than > 70 percent shorter than an ideal quarter wave antenna. So what, that's nothing special. And who tested it and how was it compared? Who signed off on the tests? It all reads like snake oil to me. > Vincent's standard DLM antennas with a standard helix and load coil were > also tested at various frequencies. All exhibited gains nearly equal to > the ideal antenna with bandwidths of 3 to 10 percent. The antennas were > 33 to 40 percent shorter. So what? And who signed off on the tests, and how were they made? > Test Report of U.R.I. DLM ANTENNAS > By The NAVAL UNDERSEA WARFARE CENTER Of Newport, Rhode Island At The > NUWC Fishers Island, New York One MileTest Range March 31, 2005. > Robert Vincent Dept. Physics University of Rhode Island Kingston, RI 02881 > http://www.uri.edu/news/vincent/report05/testreport.pdf > Quote: "... > The overall data error of this facility is less than 0.2db. in any one > measurement. > ... > The reference monopole can considered as a perfect monopole operating > over a perfect ground system. NUWC calculates this reference antenna > level over their calibrated one mile range. What do they mean "calculates"??? That's a very odd word, because it implies they never MEASURED the reference antenna. Also no one states what the reference antenna was, other than a "perfect monopole over perfect groundplane". IF it was perfect, that means it was not a real antrenna. If it was not a real antenna, we are at the mercy of calculations. I can assure you that is NOT how an antenna test is done on a test range. It is also impossible for a significantly shorter antenna to have gain over a perfect monopole over perfect ground when the antenna under test uses a real ground and real antenna losses. In my opinion, the press releases are all bullcrap. =2E.. > Antenna type Gain db** > 7MHz Plano Spiral Top Hat -Super DLM" +.06db (100% virkningsgrad) > ... > 7 MHz Standard DLM #1 -1.71db (67% virkningsgrad) > 7 MHz Standard DLM #2 -1.56db (70% virkningsgrad) > ... > 10 MHz Standard DLM #1 -1.14db (77% virkningsgrad) > 10 MHz Standard DLM #2 -1.37db (73% virkningsgrad) > ... > Percentage of operating antenna length as compared to a =B3 wave monopole > is indicated below. . > > Antenna type %1/4 wave > Plano Spiral Top DLM (super DLM) 50% > Standard DLM 33% > ..." Since the 1920's it has been well established a 1/8th wave tall monopole has about the same FS as a full size antenna when over a very good ground system.=20 Big deal. 73 Tom Article: 226044 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Wes Stewart Subject: Re: Distributed Loaded Monopole-technology based antennas Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2006 06:32:32 -0700 Message-ID: References: On Sat, 01 Jul 2006 17:59:53 +0200, Glenn Møller-Holst wrote: >Regarding a new philosophy for constructing shortened antennas. K1DFT all over again. I do wonder how he weaseled the Navy into wasting time on this. Article: 226045 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Reg Edwards" References: <1151864918.202153.64940@v61g2000cwv.googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: Creating dual band HF antennas using a loading coils. Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2006 18:24:00 +0100 Message-ID: "Reg Edwards" wrote > Use program NOTATRAP. The parallel tuned circuit is not a trap at > either of the operating frequencies. Its resonant frequency lies in > between the two operating frequencies. The two operating frequencies > do not necessarily have to be harmonically related. > ---- > ........................................................... > Regards from Reg, G4FGQ > For Free Radio Design Software go to > http://www.btinternet.com/~g4fgq.regp > ........................................................... > ========================================== There is a small advantage. The whole length of the antenna is used at both frequencies. Furthermore, the antenna can be used multi-band at frequencies higher than the lowest design frequency. Including the frequency at which the trap is resonant if it lies in an amateur band. But there will be some peculiar drive-point impedances presented to the transmission line plus tuner. For multiband use one might just as well remove the trap which is not a trap and use the antenna simply as a random length wire. ---- Reg Article: 226046 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Me Subject: Re: VHF signals References: <1151974609.070027.256830@a14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> Message-ID: Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2006 17:30:43 GMT In article , Dave Oldridge wrote: > Yep...and tropo scatter, the only RELIABLE long-haul VHF mode is way too > weak for TV broadcasting, Oh, I wouldn't class Wideband TropoScatter in the unreliable folder. The AirForce built the White Alice System in Alaska in the 50's and it had some 300 to 400 mile shots that ran 24/7 with 5 Mhz bandwidth or more. Yea, it took 60 foot high Parabolic Antennas, and 20Kw feeds, but it worked at 900 Mhz and was very reliable, with uptimes in the 99.7% range. Me one of the older guys who can actually remember he hardware involved....... Article: 226047 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "electro" Subject: 50 ohm feedlines for SOC's Date: 4 Jul 2006 10:38:28 -0700 Message-ID: <1152034708.507361.28960@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com> hello, 50 ohm is the standard port impedance.for 2.4GHz and an Fr4 substrate of say 4.2 dielectric constant and 1.6mm height, the computed/simulated Zo from ADS2004a line calc, is equivalent to about 3.12mm. also, for traces less than 1/20 of the guided wavelength, matching is not necessary. the question is this, most of the RFIC's or SOC's usually employ RF feedlines at 2.4GHz lower than the 3.12 mm computed. for one, a Sige 2.4GHz amplifier RFin and RFout port is about .62 mm and the fact that the trace extends greater than 1/20 or 1/10 of the guided wavelength...or is it because they used a different substrate of higher dielectric??? thanks Article: 226048 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "n3ox.dan@gmail.com" Subject: Re: VHF signals Date: 4 Jul 2006 12:29:49 -0700 Message-ID: <1152041389.849053.265880@v61g2000cwv.googlegroups.com> References: <1151974609.070027.256830@a14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> Hard to rely on the RX end of broadcast to put up sufficient antennas to hear troposcatter signals... Maybe with lots and lots of power on the TX end and a robust digital mode you could do troposcatter broadcasting to the general public, but it's a lot easier for point to point links.. Dan Me wrote: > In article , > Dave Oldridge wrote: > > > Yep...and tropo scatter, the only RELIABLE long-haul VHF mode is way too > > weak for TV broadcasting, > > Oh, I wouldn't class Wideband TropoScatter in the unreliable folder. > The AirForce built the White Alice System in Alaska in the 50's and it > had some 300 to 400 mile shots that ran 24/7 with 5 Mhz bandwidth or > more. Yea, it took 60 foot high Parabolic Antennas, and 20Kw feeds, but > it worked at 900 Mhz and was very reliable, with uptimes in the 99.7% > range. > > Me one of the older guys who can actually remember > he hardware involved....... Article: 226049 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2006 15:33:18 -0400 From: Dave Subject: Re: VHF signals References: <1151974609.070027.256830@a14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> Message-ID: bob@coolgroups.com wrote: > How far away from viewers are VHF signals typically broadcast? > (i.e. up to 1000 miles) > Well the exact answer to the exact question is: As far away as they can be!! [I'm in New Hampshire and I'm sure somewhere in Europe VHF signals are being transmitted. But, I surely can't hear them :-) Allowing for the ambiguous wording and hopefully moving to the intent of the question A 1000 feet high tower will have about a 50 mile radius range. A 2000 feet high tower will have about a 70 mile range. a 200 feet high tower will have about a 20 mile range. Article: 226050 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: jgboyles@aol.com Subject: Re: 50 ohm feedlines for SOC's Date: 4 Jul 2006 17:05:22 -0700 Message-ID: <1152057922.064118.286120@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com> References: <1152034708.507361.28960@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com> electro wrote: > hello, > > 50 ohm is the standard port impedance.for 2.4GHz and an Fr4 substrate > of say 4.2 dielectric constant and 1.6mm height, the computed/simulated > Zo from ADS2004a line calc, is equivalent to about 3.12mm. also, for > traces less than 1/20 of the guided wavelength, matching is not > necessary. > > the question is this, most of the RFIC's or SOC's usually employ RF > feedlines at 2.4GHz lower than the 3.12 mm computed. for one, a Sige > 2.4GHz amplifier RFin and RFout port is about .62 mm and the fact that > the trace extends greater than 1/20 or 1/10 of the guided > wavelength...or is it because they used a different substrate of higher > dielectric??? > > thanks Hi Electro, If you are posing these questions to a Ham Radio Newsgroup, then you need to explain what an ADS2004a, RFIC, and SOC is related to the 2.4GHZ band. I have been a Ham for 45 years and never heard of this stuff. There may be a Ham band around 2.4 GHZ, but for me 70cm is the highest. Maybe some microwave guys will give you some answers. Good Luck. Gary N4AST Article: 226051 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Ron Walters Subject: Optibeam Message-ID: Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2006 00:52:50 GMT Would appreciate comments relative to the Optibeam Log Periodic 14-30MHz antennas, I am also considering the SteppIR antenna but I am concerned with the mechanical and electric potential problems with that antenna. Getting on in age and tower climbing is s chore for me. Any suggestions or comments? Ron W4LDE Article: 226052 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Sal M. Onella" References: <1151974609.070027.256830@a14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: VHF signals Message-ID: <5YGqg.1043$lv.31@fed1read12> Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2006 21:09:37 -0700 wrote in message news:1151974609.070027.256830@a14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com... > How far away from viewers are VHF signals typically broadcast? > (i.e. up to 1000 miles) > I'm guessing you are asking about "DX" or "DX'ing," the art, science and hobby of long-distance communications. One good TV DX website is http://www.w9wi.com/. 1000 miles is unlikely but not impossible. 100 miles is quite reasonable I am 124 miles south of Mt Wilson, the transmitter site for Los Angeles TV, and I get them more or less reliably with antennas about 30 feet above ground. At that distance, the problem is not signal strength, but it is being behind the "bump" caused by the curvature of the earth. Mt. Wilson does me a big favor by being about a mile high. Some years ago in Norfolk, Virginia, I watched a late-night movie from a station in Buffalo NY, over 400 miles away. The picture was snowy, but good enough to permit enjoying the movie. That was a rarity, as most nights after that I saw little or nothing of that station. Article: 226053 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "XXXXX" Subject: RF Technical Jobs in australia Date: 4 Jul 2006 22:12:02 -0700 Message-ID: <1152076322.822190.56020@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com> if any bodies interested you can visit this link http://www.adl.com.au/recruitment.html Article: 226054 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2006 10:40:48 +0000 From: Scott Subject: Re: VHF signals References: <1151974609.070027.256830@a14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <5YGqg.1043$lv.31@fed1read12> Message-ID: The best TV DX I have ever had was one night in the winter (Jan. or Feb.) back about 1992. I was living in far Northern Wisconsin and I got the news from a New Orleans TV station (Ch. 3 I believe) and the video was very good with full sound. I had the TV running in the other room and didn't even suspect that it was not my normal channel out of Duluth, MN until the weather forecast came on and said the high temp expected was going to be in the low 80s (that would be VERY unusual Wisconsin weather for the middle of winter)!! Scott Sal M. Onella wrote: > > Some years ago in Norfolk, Virginia, I watched a late-night movie from a > station in Buffalo NY, over 400 miles away. The picture was snowy, but good > enough to permit enjoying the movie. That was a rarity, as most nights > after that I saw little or nothing of that station. > > Article: 226055 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2006 07:36:34 -0400 From: Dave Subject: Re: Optibeam References: Message-ID: I looked at their web site and did not see a 'Log Periodic'. Their antennas seem to be Yagi based. A L-P is a driven array, not parasitic, and broad banded so that the VSWR never exceeds a max value, typically 1.7:1, ANYWHERE in the spectrum from 14 to 30 MHz in the bandwidth you mentioned. Do you have a model number? /s/ DD W1MCE Ron Walters wrote: > Would appreciate comments relative to the Optibeam Log Periodic 14-30MHz > antennas, I am also considering the SteppIR antenna but I am concerned > with the mechanical and electric potential problems with that antenna. > Getting on in age and tower climbing is s chore for me. Any suggestions > or comments? > > Ron W4LDE Article: 226056 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Richard Fry" References: <1151974609.070027.256830@a14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <5YGqg.1043$lv.31@fed1read12> Subject: Re: VHF signals Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2006 07:33:53 -0500 Message-ID: <44abb100_5@newsfeed.slurp.net> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0081_01C6A005.5DDAD160 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Sal M. Onella" wrote: > I am 124 miles south of Mt Wilson, the transmitter site > for Los Angeles TV, and I get them more or less reliably > with antennas about 30 feet above ground. At that distance, > the problem is not signal strength, but it is being behind > the "bump" caused by the curvature of the earth. Mt.Wilson > does me a big favor by being about a mile high. ______________ Attached is a gif showing a 98 MHz path from Mt Wilson to a location near Alpine, CA, which is 124 miles SE (due S is in the ocean). More than earth curvature is affecting this path -- there are three points where the signal must diffract over terrain peaks to reach the receive antenna. Each diffraction point adds loss to the free-space value for that path. As shown on the graphic, the free-space loss is ~118 dB, and the diffraction loss adds ~75 dB to that. Assuming that the Mt Wilson FM station radiated 100 kW on that radial, the average field strength at a 30 foot elevation at the receive site would be several microvolts/meter and rather variable over time, but probably could provide a listenable signal to a good receiver system. This is just an estimate of the locations in the post quoted above, but will give an idea of what may be going on. 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