Article: 225993 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2006 11:09:22 -0400 From: jawod Subject: HFTA-ARRL-Space Message-ID: <52ec8$44a69065$453d9423$8142@FUSE.NET> Tried to make the subject grab a bit. I just fininshed the ARRL Antenna Book Chapter on Effects of Ground. There are HFTA graphs showing elevation response for various antenna configurations (mostly Yagis). Most arrays show good response up to 12 degrees above the horizon, then many show a null and then, a second peak around 25 to 30 degrees above the horizon. Here's my question: At 25 to 30 degrees elevation response, aren't these waves leaving the ionosphere (i.e., refracted instead of reflected)? Am I right to consider this component of propagation to have left the earth? This would indicate a substantial fraction of each amateur transmission is sent into space. I always thought Broadcast transmissions were most likely to emanate >from Earth. Are hams more or less likely to transmit into space than Broadcast? John (who wishes to remain a student and never an expert) Article: 225994 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Jimmie D" References: Subject: Re: DDRR antenna Message-ID: Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2006 11:25:36 -0400 "JSF" wrote in message news:ypednZxCdphO3zjZnZ2dnUVZ_q2dnZ2d@comcast.com... > Anyone used one and if so how did it compare to a 1/4 wave. > > > When I was in the Air Force the DDRR antenna became the topic of discussion of many of us who were hams or wanted to become hams at the time. Someone had read a little about it and decided this must be the end-all of antennas. A little more research revealed that this antenna truly had a lot of the attributes my friend claimed but it was also an extremely low impedance antenna(less than an ohm if memory serves). This means the elements would have to be built to handle high currents and the matching networks could be a real problem. All of this meant lots of money to build so it was deemd impratical. Article: 225995 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: =?windows-1252?Q?Glenn_M=F8ller-Holst?= Subject: Distributed Loaded Monopole-technology based antennas Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2006 17:59:53 +0200 Message-ID: Regarding a new philosophy for constructing shortened antennas. Have somebody experience with Distributed Loaded Monopole-technology based antennas. Please look on slide number 10, 19, 24, 53: http://www.uri.edu/news/vincent/boxboro_files/frame.htm Slide 25 shows how it is constructed: http://www.uri.edu/news/vincent/boxboro_files/frame.htm According to the following test, the antenna should be good - and maybe better than other shortened antennas. 70% efficiency for a 1/4 wave shortened antenna, is that good?: - April 28, 2005 Navy gives URI’s small antenna big results http://www.uri.edu/news/releases/?id=3126 Quote: "... In addition, the gain of Vincent’s capacity Top Hat DLM antenna, which incorporates a helix, a load coil, a capacitive top hat utilizing radial spokes at the top of the antenna and a horizontal plane was nearly identical to the ideal quarter wave antenna. Its bandwidth was greater than 5 percent of the operating frequency and the antenna is more than 70 percent shorter than an ideal quarter wave antenna. Vincent’s standard DLM antennas with a standard helix and load coil were also tested at various frequencies. All exhibited gains nearly equal to the ideal antenna with bandwidths of 3 to 10 percent. The antennas were 33 to 40 percent shorter. ..." - Test Report of U.R.I. DLM ANTENNAS By The NAVAL UNDERSEA WARFARE CENTER Of Newport, Rhode Island At The NUWC Fishers Island, New York One MileTest Range March 31, 2005. Robert Vincent Dept. Physics University of Rhode Island Kingston, RI 02881 http://www.uri.edu/news/vincent/report05/testreport.pdf Quote: "... The overall data error of this facility is less than 0.2db. in any one measurement. ... The reference monopole can considered as a perfect monopole operating over a perfect ground system. NUWC calculates this reference antenna level over their calibrated one mile range. ... Antenna type Gain db** 7MHz Plano Spiral Top Hat —Super DLM“ +.06db (100% virkningsgrad) ... 7 MHz Standard DLM #1 -1.71db (67% virkningsgrad) 7 MHz Standard DLM #2 -1.56db (70% virkningsgrad) ... 10 MHz Standard DLM #1 -1.14db (77% virkningsgrad) 10 MHz Standard DLM #2 -1.37db (73% virkningsgrad) ... Percentage of operating antenna length as compared to a ³ wave monopole is indicated below. . Antenna type %1/4 wave Plano Spiral Top DLM (super DLM) 50% Standard DLM 33% ..." /Glenn Article: 225996 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: =?windows-1252?Q?Glenn_M=F8ller-Holst?= Subject: Re: Distributed Loaded Monopole-technology based antennas Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2006 18:09:24 +0200 Message-ID: References: Additional information: The antenna does not have a feeding matching network and it is rather broad-banded for a shortened antenna to be. Or is it? - please compare i with other shortened antennas. /Glenn Article: 225997 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "J. Mc Laughlin" Subject: Re: HFTA-ARRL-Space Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2006 15:03:06 -0400 Message-ID: <12adhkncvfarta9@corp.supernews.com> References: <52ec8$44a69065$453d9423$8142@FUSE.NET> Dear John: If you were a radio amateur who is interested in working other radio amateurs at a great distance, then you wish to have a significant portion of your antenna's radiation within about 12 to 2 degrees above the horizon. In tern, this goal suggests that a preferred height for an HF, horizontally-polarized antenna is between 2 and 2.5 wavelengths above ground. If the higher angle radiation does not pass through the ionosphere, it contributes to interference to (relatively) nearby stations (and, because the antenna probably is used for reception, contributes to hearing nearby stations). Expensive HF antenna systems exist that significantly suppress all except the lowest lobe. If you wish to be a student of antennas, do invest in Kraus' 3rd edition of Antennas. Read and study the book starting with the first chapter. Regards, Mac N8TT -- J. Mc Laughlin; Michigan U.S.A. Home: JCM@Power-Net.Net "jawod" wrote in message news:52ec8$44a69065$453d9423$8142@FUSE.NET... > Tried to make the subject grab a bit. > > I just fininshed the ARRL Antenna Book Chapter on Effects of Ground. > There are HFTA graphs showing elevation response for various antenna > configurations (mostly Yagis). > > Most arrays show good response up to 12 degrees above the horizon, then > many show a null and then, a second peak around 25 to 30 degrees above > the horizon. > > Here's my question: > At 25 to 30 degrees elevation response, aren't these waves leaving the > ionosphere (i.e., refracted instead of reflected)? > > Am I right to consider this component of propagation to have left the earth? > > This would indicate a substantial fraction of each amateur transmission > is sent into space. > > I always thought Broadcast transmissions were most likely to emanate > from Earth. Are hams more or less likely to transmit into space than > Broadcast? > > John > (who wishes to remain a student and never an expert) Article: 225998 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Field day was great, even the phonies had fun and learned from us dinosaurs. From: Slow Code References: <1730d$44a129d9$d06640f9$23135@FUSE.NET> <14079$44a50aea$d06640f9$26607@FUSE.NET> Message-ID: Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2006 21:24:47 GMT "J. D. B." wrote in news:e3e2d$44a5d3f5$d06640f9$12100@FUSE.NET: > Slow Code, I think it is time you put up or shut up. If the skills among > you dinos were so great, then you had to finish at the top of your > category. So tell us now, what group were you part of, what section, > and what category did you compete in? > > Then, when the results are published, we will compare your standings > with those other groups who had the modern, technically trained > operators. > > We'll see if the dinos are extinct or if modern humans have triumphed. > Even if only three contacts are made, the score isn't what's important. What is important is showing and training new hams in how to communicate and operate effectively during emergencies and not be Appliance operators. Hams like you that worry about final score are more likely to cheat because you choose to ignore or fail to see the things that are important. SC Article: 225999 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Field day was great, even the phonies had fun and learned from us dinosaurs. From: Slow Code References: <5MGog.30641$VE1.2858@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> <_uZog.126$PE1.119@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2006 21:24:50 GMT Cecil Moore wrote in news:S3lpg.76092$4L1.8548@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com: > Slow Code wrote: >> And how many times has that happened to you? I'll bet never. You're >> too smart to smoke your finals. Normally when I hear someone lost >> their finals it was a result of operator error, or an act of stupidity. > > Act of God - lightning. And the CW mode was not spared. No. Not disconnecting equipment when a storm is coming is act of stupidity. sc Article: 226000 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Message-ID: <44A6F0CD.1040106@fuse.net> Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2006 18:01:49 -0400 From: jawod Subject: Re: HFTA-ARRL-Space References: <52ec8$44a69065$453d9423$8142@FUSE.NET> Richard Clark wrote: > On Sat, 01 Jul 2006 11:09:22 -0400, jawod wrote: > >>Here's my question: >>At 25 to 30 degrees elevation response, aren't these waves leaving the >>ionosphere (i.e., refracted instead of reflected)? > > > Hi John, > > You are confusing models of propagation with models for antenna lobe > characteristics. The lobes certainly have a major impact on > propagation, but the antenna modeler is not concerned with that. The > terrain modeler is not a propagation modeler. For that, consult > VOACAP or WINCAP. They are properly concerned with ionospheric > issues, but they are also driven by antenna models too. > > >>Am I right to consider this component of propagation to have left the earth? > > > To some degree, yes, but it has very little bearing on what you are > focused on here. > > >>This would indicate a substantial fraction of each amateur transmission >>is sent into space. > > > In fact, no. The apportionment of the energy into lobes is simply > robbing Peter to pay Paul. The nulls were developed from energy lost > to the peaked lobes. This is very loose analogy because energy was > never lost, it is merely the combination from many sources that makes > this lobe shape appears as it does. > > An antenna radiates from every portion of its structure and in every > direction. When all contributions are viewed from a distance, some > portions of the structure are out of phase with respect to others > portions. When those two contributions are 180° out of phase, that > remote point at where they combine perceives a null (a destructive > combination). At some other remote point, those same two > contributions may combine constructively for a peak response. Same > energies all around, but path lengths shift the wave phases and how > they combine constructs the characteristic lobe shape. > > If you took college physics, you must have seen how two charges > separated by a distance combine their effects at remote points to > offer an "electric dipole." Same logic. > > 73's > Richard Clark, KB7QHC Thanks for setting me right! John AB8WH Article: 226001 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2006 17:15:04 -0500 From: Tom Ring Subject: Re: HFTA-ARRL-Space References: <52ec8$44a69065$453d9423$8142@FUSE.NET> <4e6dnXMV6_XAMzvZRVnysQ@bt.com> <9ocda2tsr17ogdgecjqqqop81evt407t6d@4ax.com> <44CdnQflpMXIVTvZRVnyrA@bt.com> Message-ID: <44a6f3e8$0$1013$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> Richard Clark wrote: > On Sat, 1 Jul 2006 19:50:43 +0100, "Reg Edwards" > wrote: > > >>I am 3/4 of the way down a bottle of "Cotes du Rhone Villages" red, >>2004, 14.5% by volume. > > An empty bottle of Quadrupel "Three Philosophers" Belgian lambic ale > (9.8%) sits nearby. > > 73's > Richard Clark, KB7QHC While we're at it, I am just enjoying my first ever 20th Aniversary Summit Brewing Extra Special Bitter Ale. Just out this weekend. No %age listed. And not too bitter first taste, very smooth, light after bitter on the back of the tongue. Summit made another hit. tom K0TAR Article: 226002 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2006 17:33:29 -0500 From: Tom Ring Subject: Re: HFTA-ARRL-Space References: <52ec8$44a69065$453d9423$8142@FUSE.NET> Message-ID: <44a6f83a$0$6147$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> Dave wrote: > > > broadcast is more likely. there are many more broadcast stations on the air > 24x7, over the same range of spectrum that we use, and running much higher > power than we use. the most likely signals to reach out from earth are > likely fm broadcast and tv signals since those are normally well above the > critical frequency that reflects from the ionosphere and can be fairly high > power. lower hf, mf, and lf are less likely to get out as they reflect from > the ionosphere even at very high angles. > Radar is the best we do, but not much information is transmitted beyond the fact that we are here, the beam is usually narrow, and the direction varies quickly. EME is a distant 2nd, carries real information in simple codes, the direction varies slowly, the beamwidth is usually low (on high GHz bands it can be less than the width of the moon), and the number of transmitters is very low. Either one of the previous could be picked up from a fair distance, but not likely because of the narrow angles and varying direction. And commercial broadcasting doesn't have the ERP in any particular direction to carry far. We live next to a very large noise source that would tend to swamp out what we generate. tom K0TAR Article: 226003 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Message-ID: <44A6F80E.6010102@fuse.net> Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2006 18:32:46 -0400 From: jawod Subject: Re: HFTA-ARRL-Space References: <52ec8$44a69065$453d9423$8142@FUSE.NET> Reg Edwards wrote: > Whether you call it Refraction or Reflection hardly matters. This I don't understand. To me, refraction versus reflection IS the issue. In optics, Brewster's angle is used. I still don't quite understand thte PseudoBrewster's Angle...it seems to have a different definition (at least in the ARRL book). > > What matters is that the wave, in effect, is reflected from an > ionospheric layer at at a particular height, roughly according to > optical laws. Trigonometry Rules! > > Since the transmitted 'beam' has a very wide angle in the vertical > plane, the energy returns to earth over an even wider range of > distances. > > The 'elevation angle' reported by antenna simulation programs is not > very meaningfull. It contains very little useful information, mainly > because the height of a reflecting layer is unknown at the time of > transmission. Neither is the number of hops known to a particular > destination. > ---- > Reg. > > Reg, Thanks for your answer. I guess I was trying to get at how much ham radio is propagated into space. Certainly SOME does. How does this compare to that amount propagated into space by Broadcast? My assumption has been that VHF TV, etc is easily passed through the ionosphere (minimally refracted). Article: 226004 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Message-ID: <44A6F98E.2060602@fuse.net> Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2006 18:39:10 -0400 From: jawod Subject: Re: HFTA-ARRL-Space References: <52ec8$44a69065$453d9423$8142@FUSE.NET> Dave wrote: > "jawod" wrote in message > news:52ec8$44a69065$453d9423$8142@FUSE.NET... > >>Tried to make the subject grab a bit. >> >>I just fininshed the ARRL Antenna Book Chapter on Effects of Ground. There >>are HFTA graphs showing elevation response for various antenna >>configurations (mostly Yagis). >> >>Most arrays show good response up to 12 degrees above the horizon, then >>many show a null and then, a second peak around 25 to 30 degrees above the >>horizon. > > > that is a function of height. the main lobe from the antenna is aimed at > the horizon and there are other lobes from the design of then antenna. then > reflections from the ground cause more vertical variations. these are > dependent on the height and the terrain around the antenna. > > >>Here's my question: >>At 25 to 30 degrees elevation response, aren't these waves leaving the >>ionosphere (i.e., refracted instead of reflected)? > > > not necessarily. look at the arrival angle statistics and you will see that > frequently very high angle propagation is possible. usually higher angles > mean shorter distances but at times you can get many short high angle hops > to cover long distances also. > > >>Am I right to consider this component of propagation to have left the >>earth? >> >>This would indicate a substantial fraction of each amateur transmission >>is sent into space. >> >>I always thought Broadcast transmissions were most likely to emanate from >>Earth. Are hams more or less likely to transmit into space than >>Broadcast? > > > broadcast is more likely. there are many more broadcast stations on the air > 24x7, over the same range of spectrum that we use, and running much higher > power than we use. the most likely signals to reach out from earth are > likely fm broadcast and tv signals since those are normally well above the > critical frequency that reflects from the ionosphere and can be fairly high > power. lower hf, mf, and lf are less likely to get out as they reflect from > the ionosphere even at very high angles. > > > >>John >>(who wishes to remain a student and never an expert) > > > Thanks to all for the "enlightenment". Guess I've got a little SETI streak in me. I just got back a copy of an Astrobiology text that I borrowed out. It's by Gilmour and Sephton, Cambridge University Press if anyone's interested. John Article: 226005 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Roy Lewallen Subject: Re: HFTA-ARRL-Space Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2006 15:59:05 -0700 Message-ID: <12advi02ogi7507@corp.supernews.com> References: <52ec8$44a69065$453d9423$8142@FUSE.NET> <44a6f83a$0$6147$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> Tom Ring wrote: > > Radar is the best we do, but not much information is transmitted beyond > the fact that we are here, the beam is usually narrow, and the direction > varies quickly. EME is a distant 2nd, carries real information in > simple codes, the direction varies slowly, the beamwidth is usually low > (on high GHz bands it can be less than the width of the moon), and the > number of transmitters is very low. > > Either one of the previous could be picked up from a fair distance, but > not likely because of the narrow angles and varying direction. And > commercial broadcasting doesn't have the ERP in any particular direction > to carry far. We live next to a very large noise source that would tend > to swamp out what we generate. VHF and UHF emissions escalated rapidly after WWII with the popularization of TV, and these readily penetrate the ionosphere. So there's a sphere of such emissions radiating outward from the Earth at the speed of light. And at the leading edge of this radiation sphere are the McCarthy hearings and the Howdy Doody show. No wonder the ETs have left us alone! Roy Lewallen, W7EL Article: 226006 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2006 18:13:01 -0500 From: Tom Ring Subject: Re: HFTA-ARRL-Space References: <52ec8$44a69065$453d9423$8142@FUSE.NET> <44a6f83a$0$6147$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <12advi02ogi7507@corp.supernews.com> Message-ID: <44a7017d$0$1013$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> Roy Lewallen wrote: > > VHF and UHF emissions escalated rapidly after WWII with the > popularization of TV, and these readily penetrate the ionosphere. So > there's a sphere of such emissions radiating outward from the Earth at > the speed of light. And at the leading edge of this radiation sphere are > the McCarthy hearings and the Howdy Doody show. No wonder the ETs have > left us alone! > > Roy Lewallen, W7EL What was wrong with Howdy Doody? tom K0TAR Article: 226007 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2006 19:15:46 -0400 From: "J. D. B." Subject: Re: Field day was great, even the phonies had fun and learned from References: <1730d$44a129d9$d06640f9$23135@FUSE.NET> <14079$44a50aea$d06640f9$26607@FUSE.NET> Message-ID: I call B.S.! If you old, outdated methods of communication are so superior, then you should have locked up the contest. So, this means one of two things. 1.) you're not telling the truth, or, 2.) the old methods you claim are superior are really not and the new "appliance operators" at other clubs using modern methods kicked your collective butts. I suspect that 1. is the truth and you did not participate in FD and didn't teach any news hams anything. In fact, if you did participate in FD, the "appliance operators" probably ran rings around you and embarrassed you so bad, you had to create this story to save face. Nice try, no one is buying the BS. Slow Code wrote: > > > > Even if only three contacts are made, the score isn't what's important. > What is important is showing and training new hams in how to communicate > and operate effectively during emergencies and not be Appliance operators. > Hams like you that worry about final score are more likely to cheat > because you choose to ignore or fail to see the things that are important. > > SC > > Article: 226008 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Owen Duffy Subject: Re: HFTA-ARRL-Space Message-ID: <3bjea2pjtija9e759p6sgua4vvtcv1udqt@4ax.com> References: <52ec8$44a69065$453d9423$8142@FUSE.NET> Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2006 04:43:41 GMT On Sat, 01 Jul 2006 16:11:42 -0700, Richard Clark wrote: >On the other hand, at HF the ratio between reflection and refraction >varies. There are times when both occur. During those times the >portion of the incident ray that is reflected returns to earth, while >the portion that is refracted continues on through the ionosphere into >space and never returns. I'm not sufficiently knowledgeable on the But is it actually reflection? Owen -- Article: 226009 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Sal M. Onella" References: Subject: Re: coax test? Message-ID: Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2006 22:02:37 -0700 "ml" wrote in message news:m-4CB295.22423530062006@news.verizon.net... > hi > > If you buy a length of coax w/connectors on it , either a short jumper > say 3ft or a run of say 100ft > > > what is an easy way to test the coax as well as the quality of > termination connector quality? > > accuracy is what i am looking for to ensure realibility at 1gig "Easy" and "accuracy" may not both come in the same package. Bob Bob is right but you could also do a swept VSWR. In my experience, it involves a device called a network analyzer, which sweeps across the band of interest through a directional coupler at the near end of the cable, into a dummy load at the far end. It automatically samples the reflected power and compares it to the forward power to produce the SWR more or less continuously. (I believe the sweeping is done incrementally, with steps so small it _appears_ continuous.) The resulting info is plotted or displayed as a graph with frequency left-to-right and VSWR up-and-down, with 1:1 being on the bottom. Some cable is sold as being "100%" sweep tested" to some upper limit. Last year I had a case of a Navy shipboard satcom uplink transmission line that failed its sweep test at one spot near the upper end of the frequency range ... around 8 GHz. We had to replace it. (AN/WSC-6, for those who know what that is.) We had the contractor "shoot" it three different times with different test equipment each time -- always the same. The new line was fine. Until then, I had never seen a defective cable that was quite so frequency sensitive! Article: 226010 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "hamguy1" Subject: looking for help with icom725 internal power supply Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2006 15:29:27 +1000 Message-ID: <44a759b4$0$22358$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> hi ham radiogroups, im after the internal power control or alc inside of a icom725 hf transceiver the radio is doing way to much power for the power supply, it currently is doing 150 watts it needs to be turned back down to around 100 watts .thanks in advance david from nsw australia . Article: 226011 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Bob Miller Subject: Re: All Band Coax-fed Dipole ?????????? Message-ID: <7ohfa2d494e2vabvrid1hs44h0nd6p57p8@4ax.com> References: <449e9959$0$16418$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> <12a21gtrbsfkf63@corp.supernews.com> <3s44a2dbc1aqbvgph1o7a3b60h0rkpt6o2@4ax.com> <2kd5a2djg2e651n4bpe6o7c4e0vvdkn93v@4ax.com> <4s6dnekOK9iOqT7ZnZ2dnUVZ_sOdnZ2d@adelphia.com> <12a6ig7ghnskr92@corp.supernews.com> Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2006 13:19:57 GMT On Wed, 28 Jun 2006 20:33:10 -0700, Roy Lewallen wrote: >Mike Coslo wrote: >> . . . >> I don't doubt that someone might come to a different conclusion, but >> I think my reasoning is pretty sound. I modeled an equal length version >> of this in 4nec, and it just doesn't work very well. OTOH, turn it into >> an OCF dipole, and it is a different story. . . > >How did you possibly determine what the balun input impedance was when >terminated with the impedances the antenna presented on the various >bands? How did you model the balun? It's almost certainly a "voltage" >balun which will force common mode current onto the feedline when >terminated with an asymmetrical load. I inquired about the baluns on their wire antennas -- their antennas feature 4-1 or 6-1 baluns, and got the following answer: "There are NO RESISTORS, and our 4:1 BALUNs are CURRENT Balun. As a matter of fact, all our baluns are CURRENT type. We also make voltage baluns, however, they are sold on a per/order basis." Bob k5qwg > Because of the common mode >current, the outside of the feedline must be part of the model. Did you >model the antenna with various lengths and orientations of feedlines? > >I don't believe that a valid model can be made of this type of antenna >without knowing and accounting for the major imperfections of the balun, >the common mode current it forces, and the feedline length and >orientation for the particular installation. > >Roy Lewallen, W7EL Article: 226012 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: gwatts Subject: Re: looking for help with icom725 internal power supply References: <44a759b4$0$22358$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2006 15:30:57 GMT hamguy1 wrote: > hi ham radiogroups, im after the internal power control or alc inside of a > icom725 hf transceiver the radio is doing way to much power for the power > supply, it currently is doing 150 watts it needs to be turned back down to > around 100 watts .thanks in advance david from nsw australia . > > Go to http://www.icom.co.jp/world/support/index.htm click on 'Manuals,' agree to the license, scroll down to 'Amateur,' download the manual for the IC-725, look at page 31 (34 in the Acrobat window). I think you may be interested in 'R210' for the 100W power adjust. Watch the current, 73! W8LNA Article: 226013 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Bob Bob Subject: Re: Affordable way for 1MHz - 4MHz capture and analysis?? References: <1151826130.882886.241330@j8g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> Message-ID: Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2006 10:35:50 -0500 A fast A/D front end on a PC, sampling at a minimum of 8MHz. Use the PC as a DSP engine. I suspect that these would be available as a plug in PCI card... You can get an idea of what this is about by the plethora of sound card based analysis systems now available (with a max sample rate of 44kHz or thereabouts. Depending what you are doing and are real stingy a computer controlled HF receiver and the soundcard interface might do it for you too. Wanna be a bit more specific of your requirements and application? Cheers Bob VK2YQA larsonmedia@gmail.com wrote: > > Anyone have a suggestion for capure and analysis that does not involve > thousands of dollars? > Article: 226014 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Bob Bob Subject: Re: coax test? References: Message-ID: Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2006 10:30:55 -0500 Something else possibly interesting I use to work for a company that amongst other things installed mobile phone base systems. One of the mandatory tests was to sweep the coax >from the TX end after it had been terminated to the antenna. Return loss (SWR) was the major criteria for the test pass but it also showed the location of the impedance discontinuity. (ie in metres from the feedpoint) In most cases this was a cable indentation where it wasnt unwound from the drum carefully, or where the coiled stuff had been laid down flat instead of being kept vertical. (ie was distorted by its own weight) We did have a few cases however where the inside of the inner core had slight amounts of corrosion causing the problem. This was commonly LDF4-50 or LDF5-50 (foam coax a little less and a little more than 1" dia and had an inner core "pipe" with an inside air space. Cheers Bob Sal M. Onella wrote: > Last year I had a case of a Navy shipboard satcom uplink transmission line > that failed its sweep test at one spot near the upper end of the frequency > range ... around 8 GHz. We had to replace it. (AN/WSC-6, for those who know > what that is.) We had the contractor "shoot" it three different times with > different test equipment each time -- always the same. The new line was > fine. Until then, I had never seen a defective cable that was quite so > frequency sensitive! > > Article: 226015 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: ml Subject: Re: coax test? References: Message-ID: Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2006 00:24:56 GMT In article , "Sal M. Onella" wrote: > "ml" wrote in message > news:m-4CB295.22423530062006@news.verizon.net... > > hi > > > > If you buy a length of coax w/connectors on it , either a short jumper > > say 3ft or a run of say 100ft > > > > > > what is an easy way to test the coax as well as the quality of > > termination connector quality? > > > > accuracy is what i am looking for to ensure realibility at 1gig > > "Easy" and "accuracy" may not both come in the same package. Bob Bob is > right but you could also do a swept VSWR. In my experience, it involves a > device called a network analyzer, which sweeps across the band of interest > through a directional coupler at the near end of the cable, into a dummy > load at the far end. It automatically samples the reflected power and > compares it to the forward power to produce the SWR more or less > continuously. (I believe the sweeping is done incrementally, with steps so > small it _appears_ continuous.) > > The resulting info is plotted or displayed as a graph with frequency > left-to-right and VSWR up-and-down, with 1:1 being on the bottom. Some > cable is sold as being "100%" sweep tested" to some upper limit. > > Last year I had a case of a Navy shipboard satcom uplink transmission line > that failed its sweep test at one spot near the upper end of the frequency > range ... around 8 GHz. We had to replace it. (AN/WSC-6, for those who know > what that is.) We had the contractor "shoot" it three different times with > different test equipment each time -- always the same. The new line was > fine. Until then, I had never seen a defective cable that was quite so > frequency sensitive! just wanted to thank everyone for the responce, i wish i had a network analyzer(wasnt that for pc's?) or an coax/ant analyzer however easy wasn't ment to mean common tools that a ham might have i want to buy some used coax to taking adv of price but i need to test it, tnx Article: 226016 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Robert Haston" Subject: Help with NASA / Canaveral helicopter yagi antenna Message-ID: Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2006 00:22:31 GMT I am a pilot in the 301st Rescue Squadron at Patrick AFB, south of Cape Canaveral. We use helicopters to clear boats out of the Space Shuttle and Rocket danger zones off the coast. I've bought some marine band 161-162 MHz (87 & 88 marine band) Automated Identification System (AIS) receivers to receive data transmissions from larger vessels. To maximize the reception of targets up to 60 miles out, I need a somewhat directional antenna, say a 2 or 3 element yagi. The belly of our Blackhawk variant Pavehawk helicopters offers a mount and a 7 foot wide ground plane via the cargo hook on its belly. I can make the mount sideways and reversible so we can track big boats coming at us from the poles while we work all the little sport fishermen that infest the narrow east west azimuth out to 50 miles. What I would like to do is use half of an antenna and use the aircraft as a ground plane to give us more ground clearance and less drag. Here are my questions: 1. Can you use a yagi with elements only on one side when you have a ground plane just like a quarter wave dipole? 2. Would the 17" square hole that the antenna sticks out in the belly of make much of a difference in the ground plane? (this could be remedied). 3. For maximum gain, what needs to be grounded to the helicopter if anything: non radiating elements, the receiver, etc.? 4. What effect does diameter or material of elements have. I figure I can chop down car antennas (my present dipole) which are very cheap and sturdy enough to take 170 MPH winds. 5. What are good sites on making the right antenna? Thanks, I'll be happy to exchange lots of images of the equipment in action in exchange. -- Robert Haston Satellite Beach, FL Article: 226017 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Frank's" References: <5a8da2phgq7ibbk632pbl5ngkkt9eo7070@4ax.com> Subject: Re: Distributed Loaded Monopole-technology based antennas Message-ID: Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2006 00:51:20 GMT "Richard Clark" wrote in message news:5a8da2phgq7ibbk632pbl5ngkkt9eo7070@4ax.com... > On Sat, 01 Jul 2006 17:59:53 +0200, Glenn Møller-Holst > wrote: > >>Regarding a new philosophy for constructing shortened antennas. > > Hi Glenn, > > The term here that seems to fit is poser. It is a variant of poseur > if that term is more familiar. This >>Test Report of U.R.I. DLM ANTENNAS >>By The NAVAL UNDERSEA WARFARE CENTER Of Newport, Rhode Island At The >>NUWC Fishers Island, New York One MileTest Range March 31, 2005. > is notable for having no signature page showing its bona fides. A > University of Rhode Island grade two technician is NOT an authority at > that facility. > > Both the "report" and the other links all show very poor skills at > writing much less reporting. For instance, the "report" completely > omits the characteristic Z of the antenna. Is this antenna range > facility so shy of equipment that this notable specification was left > unmeasured? Even a standard quarter wave radiator is not a 50 Ohm > match. > > This, and the rambling style that wanders the landscape in describing > this invention hardly inspires confidence in this moonlight episode of > using those facilities on the sly. > > 73's > Richard Clark, KB7QHC NEC indicates the input impedance is about 18 ohms for the 40 m model. The gain (with ten 12 ft radials, base 3" above average ground) at 30 deg elevation angle is -3.9 dBi. I used a distributed helix with the GH card, but for the 2nd inductor a lumped element inductor, Q = 300. The value for the 2nd inductor was much higher than the recommended 15 uH. at about 36 uH. An unloaded monopole of the same height, same radial system, has a gain of -2.9 dBi at 30 deg elevation angle. Input impedance 6.2 - j748. A two element matching network, inductor Q 400 (same Q as the base helix) has a loss of 1.7 dB for an overall gain of - 4.6 dBi at 30 deg. Frank Article: 226018 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Robert Haston" References: <2mkog.58280$9c6.45638@dukeread11> Subject: Re: Anyone here think they would pay for a map like this? Message-ID: Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2006 01:10:13 GMT Google Earth will give you the coordinates of a point anywhere. There are lots of free ways to convert lat long to bearing such as trigonometry spreadsheets - or a GPS. Also, the FCC lists stations by lat/long. "Chris W" <1qazse4@cox.net> wrote in message news:2mkog.58280$9c6.45638@dukeread11... >I have created some software to create a radial map to help you know where >to point your antenna. A sample of the map can be seen here... > http://www.thewishzone.com/cdw/hamradio/RadialMap.gif > > Pretty much any part of this map can be customized from the start and end > point of the radials how many degrees apart each one is, having multiple > sets of radials, such as a set every 1 degree from 97 to 100 miles out > with an other set from 5 to 200 miles every 15 degrees. Any number of > sets of any length can be done. As well as circles of any size. All very > easy, just supply the center lat long. I can also print the map any size > up to 42" wide/high. I've never printed had any paper that big on this > printer but I do know it will take paper that big. I would have got a 36" > wide printer but it was too slow, and this one is faster. With the > software I am developing creating the map is very easy but obviously > printing it isn't cheap. > > > > -- > Chris W > KE5GIX > > Gift Giving Made Easy > Get the gifts you want & > give the gifts they want > One stop wish list for any gift, > from anywhere, for any occasion! > http://thewishzone.com Article: 226019 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: nospam@nouce.bellatlantic.net Subject: Re: Help with NASA / Canaveral helicopter yagi antenna Message-ID: <3atga2lanedo1jkc9vm4e2qlht71dce8bm@4ax.com> References: Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2006 01:45:17 GMT On Mon, 03 Jul 2006 00:22:31 GMT, "Robert Haston" wrote: >I am a pilot in the 301st Rescue Squadron at Patrick AFB, south of Cape >Canaveral. We use helicopters to clear boats out of the Space Shuttle and >Rocket danger zones off the coast. > >I've bought some marine band 161-162 MHz (87 & 88 marine band) Automated >Identification System (AIS) receivers to receive data transmissions from >larger vessels. To maximize the reception of targets up to 60 miles out, I >need a somewhat directional antenna, say a 2 or 3 element yagi. > >The belly of our Blackhawk variant Pavehawk helicopters offers a mount and a >7 foot wide ground plane via the cargo hook on its belly. I can make the >mount sideways and reversible so we can track big boats coming at us from >the poles while we work all the little sport fishermen that infest the >narrow east west azimuth out to 50 miles. > >What I would like to do is use half of an antenna and use the aircraft as a >ground plane to give us more ground clearance and less drag. > > Here are my questions: > >1. Can you use a yagi with elements only on one side when you have a ground >plane just like a quarter wave dipole? > >2. Would the 17" square hole that the antenna sticks out in the belly of >make much of a difference in the ground plane? (this could be remedied). > >3. For maximum gain, what needs to be grounded to the helicopter if >anything: non radiating elements, the receiver, etc.? > >4. What effect does diameter or material of elements have. I figure I can >chop down car antennas (my present dipole) which are very cheap and sturdy >enough to take 170 MPH winds. > >5. What are good sites on making the right antenna? > >Thanks, > > I'll be happy to exchange lots of images of the equipment in action in >exchange. Simple solution. Lookup a "Half Square" or "Bobtail" as this would work for VHF and fit you mouning concerns. WWW.CEBIK.COM Is a good site, read down the tales and technicals page to the section on VHF antennas. However, from 4000ft, your line of sight for a simple monopole is sufficient to get you that far out. Hint: if you can communicate with VHF aircraft radio (118-136mhz) at that range VHF marine will also work. For VHF altitude is a valuable assist for range. Allison Article: 226020 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "J. Mc Laughlin" Subject: Re: Sky noise temperature - 2m, 70cm, 23cm Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2006 23:29:33 -0400 Message-ID: <12ah3mat3nt2h0c@corp.supernews.com> References: <2q1a92pkre7o2kc0cechlks7pmh7rlacdn@4ax.com> <129b087sq5uom06@corp.supernews.com> Dear Group: While purging my office for twelve hours today in preparation for a move to another office, I came upon another article that might be of use: "136 MHz/400 MHz Radio-Sky Maps" by Ralph E. Taylor; Proc. of the IEEE; April 1973, pp469-472 Not everything can be found with Google. 73, Mac N8TT "J. Mc Laughlin" wrote in message news:129b087sq5uom06@corp.supernews.com... > Dear Owen: > > W8PIL and I (then W8TBZ) published a paper on this subject in QST using > radio astronomy information. As I recall, the article was published about > June of 1961. He has since retired from NRL and I am still going. > > 73, Mac N8TT > > -- > J. Mc Laughlin; Michigan U.S.A. > Home: JCM@Power-Net.Net > "Owen Duffy" wrote in message > news:2q1a92pkre7o2kc0cechlks7pmh7rlacdn@4ax.com... > > > > Googling about turns up a little, and only a little information on the > > expected sky noise temperature on 2m, 70cm, 23cm. > > > > The information isn't very consistent. For example, articles that talk > > about the sky noise below 200MHz being 100K or more, and amateur > > articles talking about sky noise at 144MHz being "hundreds of > > degrees". > > > > Similary, for 70cm a broad brush figure of 45K seems to be used, and > > others talk about 20K away from the galactic plane and 60K on the > > galactic plane. (Yes, they will be blurred together with a low gain > > antenna.) > > > > Some discussions treat the "sky noise temperature" as if it includes > > spillover noise (eg in cold sky / hot earth measurements). > > > > Can anyone recommend a reliable source of sky noise characteristics > > for these bands. > > > > Additionally, I am interested in the range of ambient noise levels > > experienced for these bands for traditional DX activity (ie antennas > > at zero elevation. > > > > Alternatively, are satellite beacons a reliable source for measuring > > station receive performance? > > > > Or... is there some other better way of measuring station receive > > performance? > > > > Owen > > -- > > Article: 226021 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Tam/WB2TT" References: <1151864918.202153.64940@v61g2000cwv.googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: Creating dual band HF antennas using a loading coils. Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2006 00:24:58 -0400 Message-ID: wrote in message news:1151864918.202153.64940@v61g2000cwv.googlegroups.com... > Here are a couple messages I posted on eHam net. Any comments would be > appreciated. > > Thanks, > > Doug VE3XDB > > -- > MESSAGE #1: > > Hi everyone, > > I am thinking of building a center loaded fan dipole. One wire dipole > to cover 20 and 40 metres, and a second wire diple, connected at the > same feedpoint, to cover 30 and 17 metres. Coils would be placed at the > resonant point of the higher frequency, acting as both an RF choke and > a loading coil. My question is this. I would like to have the wire > beyond the coil as long as possible, but would still like the coil to > have enough inductance to act as an effective RF choke for the higher > band. > > Other than through experimentation, how would one calculate or > determine this mix of inductance/length? > > Best regards, > > Doug VE3XDB Regardless of what you do, this is going to be guaranteed to have lousy bandwidth on 40 meters (and 30, but you don't care). The whole thing might be easier if you have 4 dipoles at a common feedpoint. I haven't tried 4, but did have 3: 40, 17, and 12 meters. You will want to have angular separation between the dipoles, either horizontal or vertical, or a combination. I did not measure it, but probably had about 15 degrees of separation. Tune by trimming the lowest frequency antenna first. If you still want the trap dipoles, you can always buy the traps from places like AES. They will probably come with instructions. With 2 trap dipoles at a common feedpoint, I suspect this will be very difficult to tune. Tam/WB2TT Article: 226022 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "west" References: <129s61p92po1l17@corp.supernews.com> Subject: Re: rf burn Message-ID: <7p2qg.1407$283.597@trnddc08> Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2006 06:01:39 GMT "Frank Alforo" wrote in message news:129s61p92po1l17@corp.supernews.com... > If I touch the coil in my tuner while transmitting I get a painful rf burn. > But a bird can perch on my antenna wire while I transmit 100 watts and it > stays there seemingly without a care in the world. How come? > Because the bird is smarter? west Article: 226023 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Chris W <1qazse4@cox.net> Subject: Re: Anyone here think they would pay for a map like this? References: <2mkog.58280$9c6.45638@dukeread11> Message-ID: Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2006 02:20:45 -0500 Robert Haston wrote: > Google Earth will give you the coordinates of a point anywhere. There are > lots of free ways to convert lat long to bearing such as trigonometry > spreadsheets - or a GPS. I'm obviously not explaining myself very well. I'm not trying to say I have come up with some new revolutionary way to determine what heading some place is from you. The ways of doing that are endless. Which one is best, depends on the situation. Sure there are a number of places you can purchase a map and draw radials on it. However the chances of getting one that covers the area you want it to and having it centered where you want it aren't very good. Drawing all that on a map by hand is just way too much work if you ask me. I just think it is kind of cool to have a large map hanging on my wall centered at my location with radials going out. But hey I just like maps, guess that makes me weird. -- Chris W KE5GIX Gift Giving Made Easy Get the gifts you want & give the gifts they want One stop wish list for any gift, >from anywhere, for any occasion! http://thewishzone.com Article: 226024 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Dave" References: <1151826130.882886.241330@j8g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <1151911048.933052.62950@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: Affordable way for 1MHz - 4MHz capture and analysis?? Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2006 12:09:29 -0000 Message-ID: i wouldn't touch something like this with a ham tranceiver. not enough control or calibration. also, now you are talking of 2 different things. a transmitter that is sending the data/power, and your need to monitor for the presence of a signal independently. for monitoring for the presence of a signal across a bandwidth like that (really 570hz or is that 570khz??) you need something like a spectrum analyzer with an appropriate wide band antenna, go check with some emi testing labs for the type of equipment they use. you will quickly learn that unless you are doing this in a shielded room there are LOTS of signals in that range that will show up. you also need to better state your requirements... 'duration and length' of exposure are the same thing and do not describe the whole problem. you must also measure the field strength (probably at a couple of locations) and frequency in addition to time. it sounds like you are not familiar enough with the terminology, equipment, or methods, to take on such a job that could be related to safety... get professional rf safety help NOW or you may need a professional lawyer in the future. wrote in message news:1151911048.933052.62950@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com... > Specifically, the application is one which uses a HAM radio transciever > utilizing approx 20W-100W power and a Class E transmitter to drive > data signals and power from an external coil to a series of smaller > receiver coils which are implanted in biological tissue for biomedical > application. I have to police/enforce the research personnel to ensure > limits regarding std practices are not exceeded in regards to duration > and length of RF exposure fothe patient. Of course I need to do this > independently, because in this situation relying on their "good word" > or verbal agreement isn't sufficient. I have to be able to be able to > 1.) determine if there is a 570Hz to 4MHz signal present, and 2.) > determine if it is encoded or modulated to carry the power and data > signals. Not up my alley exactly, but I need to get it done. If there > is an expansion card or USB interface device for PC, that would be > preferable to aquiring an entire HAM rig. Any help appreciated. - Lars > > > Bob Bob wrote: >> A fast A/D front end on a PC, sampling at a minimum of 8MHz. Use the PC >> as a DSP engine. I suspect that these would be available as a plug in >> PCI card... >> >> You can get an idea of what this is about by the plethora of sound card >> based analysis systems now available (with a max sample rate of 44kHz or >> thereabouts. Depending what you are doing and are real stingy a computer >> controlled HF receiver and the soundcard interface might do it for you >> too. >> >> Wanna be a bit more specific of your requirements and application? >> >> Cheers Bob VK2YQA >> >> larsonmedia@gmail.com wrote: >> > >> > Anyone have a suggestion for capure and analysis that does not involve >> > thousands of dollars? >> > > Article: 226025 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "J. Mc Laughlin" Subject: Re: HFTA-ARRL-Space Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2006 09:42:51 -0400 Message-ID: <12ai7k7g6jom09b@corp.supernews.com> References: <52ec8$44a69065$453d9423$8142@FUSE.NET> <3bjea2pjtija9e759p6sgua4vvtcv1udqt@4ax.com> Dear Reg: You have articulated one of the many reasons why HF propagation is described in stochastic terms. As you know very well, measurements or predictions comprise at least two numbers: the best estimate of the number and an estimate of the uncertainty of the first number. Present models of HF propagation, which include antenna characteristics, provide both numbers. Early models of HF propagation tended to be somewhat deficient in providing the second number. However, I remember using the early models to predict (extrapolate) in real-time how much longer a certain frequency was likely to remain usable >from noting the drop-out of a higher frequency. The physics involved has been understood for many years. It takes a long period of data gathering to be able to do a good job with the second number. In the early days (post WW2) of radio astronomy, the uncertainties of some important measurements were greater than the estimate. That did not last. 73 Mac N8TT P.S. Nice to know that W2DU is back. -- J. Mc Laughlin; Michigan U.S.A. Home: JCM@Power-Net.Net "Reg Edwards" wrote in message news:QLydnZePUuOZKDrZRVnyhw@bt.com... > > > > But is it actually reflection? > > > > no, it is actually a refraction. but it is useful sometimes to > model it as > > a reflection from a slightly higher level. that makes computation > of angles > > of incidence and height a bit easier. > > ============================================ > The trigonometry is quite simple. Things become complicated when the > reflecting layer is not horizontal, ie., the layer is tilted. > > The angle and direction of tilt are very difficult to predict. > Consequently, where on the surface of the Earth a ray returns is > anybody's guess. > > This makes the vertical take-off angle, reported by antenna modelling > programs, even less useful. > ---- > Reg. > > Article: 226026 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2006 09:04:34 -0700 From: Tim Wescott Subject: Re: Help with NASA / Canaveral helicopter yagi antenna References: <3atga2lanedo1jkc9vm4e2qlht71dce8bm@4ax.com> Message-ID: nospam@nouce.bellatlantic.net wrote: > On Mon, 03 Jul 2006 00:22:31 GMT, "Robert Haston" > wrote: > > >>I am a pilot in the 301st Rescue Squadron at Patrick AFB, south of Cape >>Canaveral. We use helicopters to clear boats out of the Space Shuttle and >>Rocket danger zones off the coast. >> >>I've bought some marine band 161-162 MHz (87 & 88 marine band) Automated >>Identification System (AIS) receivers to receive data transmissions from >>larger vessels. To maximize the reception of targets up to 60 miles out, I >>need a somewhat directional antenna, say a 2 or 3 element yagi. >> >>The belly of our Blackhawk variant Pavehawk helicopters offers a mount and a >>7 foot wide ground plane via the cargo hook on its belly. I can make the >>mount sideways and reversible so we can track big boats coming at us from >>the poles while we work all the little sport fishermen that infest the >>narrow east west azimuth out to 50 miles. >> >>What I would like to do is use half of an antenna and use the aircraft as a >>ground plane to give us more ground clearance and less drag. >> >>Here are my questions: >> >>1. Can you use a yagi with elements only on one side when you have a ground >>plane just like a quarter wave dipole? >> >>2. Would the 17" square hole that the antenna sticks out in the belly of >>make much of a difference in the ground plane? (this could be remedied). >> >>3. For maximum gain, what needs to be grounded to the helicopter if >>anything: non radiating elements, the receiver, etc.? >> >>4. What effect does diameter or material of elements have. I figure I can >>chop down car antennas (my present dipole) which are very cheap and sturdy >>enough to take 170 MPH winds. >> >>5. What are good sites on making the right antenna? >> >>Thanks, >> >>I'll be happy to exchange lots of images of the equipment in action in >>exchange. > > > Simple solution. Lookup a "Half Square" or "Bobtail" as this would > work for VHF and fit you mouning concerns. > > WWW.CEBIK.COM Is a good site, read down the tales and technicals page > to the section on VHF antennas. > > However, from 4000ft, your line of sight for a simple monopole is > sufficient to get you that far out. Hint: if you can communicate with > VHF aircraft radio (118-136mhz) at that range VHF marine will also > work. For VHF altitude is a valuable assist for range. > > Allison > I believe that a helicopter pilot's nose starts bleeding at 1000ft -- at least that's what my fixed-wing pilot friends tell me. -- Tim Wescott Wescott Design Services http://www.wescottdesign.com Posting from Google? See http://cfaj.freeshell.org/google/ "Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" came out in April. See details at http://www.wescottdesign.com/actfes/actfes.html Article: 226027 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Bob Bob Subject: Re: Affordable way for 1MHz - 4MHz capture and analysis?? References: <1151826130.882886.241330@j8g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <1151911048.933052.62950@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com> Message-ID: Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2006 10:35:47 -0500 This looks like an interesting project! Not quite what I was thinking in my original answer. I think your requirement is a lot simpler and cheaper. A yes no indicator for RF between 570Hz and 4Mhz should be relatively easy, especially if it is a large signal in comparison to the ambient level. You could probably do it with a band pass filter network, a few transistors and some kind of display device (eg a LED). Some sensitivity calibratation over the freq range will need doing and maybe a subsequent adjustment to the BPF. Determining if it is encoded depends on how it is encoded. If it creates pulses of a known PRF then a simple AM receiver to detect the envelope, followed by whatever ever band pass at the PRF and a subsequent display device. I cant comment on this further without knowing how you modulate. Both circuits could be mounted in a box with an "RF detected" and "Modulated signal detected" LED along with a resetable timer. You are talking maybe $30 worth of parts! Note that you will need to test its susceptability to other RF in the area so it doesnt give false readings. One assumes you want to log the above events? For that a PC can be used for with a simple low rate data acquisition module or even via the parallel port pins. As horrible as it sounds using an old clunker and a DOS version with debug will allow you to poll the printer port and print a report on completion. You can also do it with the normal tools in a current Linux versions. I think software would need to be written for a Windows environment. Probably already exists as GPL. Shd be pretty simple to write though if not. The above assumes you dont need to measure the actual exposure level.. You might be interested to know that back in the early 1980's I was involved in medical ultrasound. Most of our products were for imaging and doppler. We were however developing a higher energy device for focussed heating on cancerous etc areas. The initial tests were done with a beefed up transducer (about 50mm dia a 5mm thick) in a water bath and excited with an old Yaesu FT101B transceiver on about 3.6MHz! It was impressive to watch it boiling the surface of the water. It looked like a 360 degree waterfall.. If you want to go down the separate radio and PC device have a look at the Winradio (or similar) boxes. They use a PC as control and display for an external box with an RS232 and antenna port on it. Dont know about the software side of this though. Cheers Bob VK2YQA lars121@gmail.com wrote: > > Specifically, the application is one which uses a HAM radio transciever > utilizing approx 20W-100W power and a Class E transmitter to drive > data signals and power from an external coil to a series of smaller > receiver coils which are implanted in biological tissue for biomedical > application. I have to police/enforce the research personnel to ensure > limits regarding std practices are not exceeded in regards to duration > and length of RF exposure fothe patient. Of course I need to do this > independently, because in this situation relying on their "good word" > or verbal agreement isn't sufficient. I have to be able to be able to > 1.) determine if there is a 570Hz to 4MHz signal present, and 2.) > determine if it is encoded or modulated to carry the power and data > signals. Not up my alley exactly, but I need to get it done. If there > is an expansion card or USB interface device for PC, that would be > preferable to aquiring an entire HAM rig. Any help appreciated. - Lars > Article: 226028 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2006 09:23:36 -0700 From: Tim Wescott Subject: Re: Help with NASA / Canaveral helicopter yagi antenna References: Message-ID: Robert Haston wrote: > I am a pilot in the 301st Rescue Squadron at Patrick AFB, south of Cape > Canaveral. We use helicopters to clear boats out of the Space Shuttle and > Rocket danger zones off the coast. > > I've bought some marine band 161-162 MHz (87 & 88 marine band) Automated > Identification System (AIS) receivers to receive data transmissions from > larger vessels. To maximize the reception of targets up to 60 miles out, I > need a somewhat directional antenna, say a 2 or 3 element yagi. > > The belly of our Blackhawk variant Pavehawk helicopters offers a mount and a > 7 foot wide ground plane via the cargo hook on its belly. I can make the > mount sideways and reversible so we can track big boats coming at us from > the poles while we work all the little sport fishermen that infest the > narrow east west azimuth out to 50 miles. > > What I would like to do is use half of an antenna and use the aircraft as a > ground plane to give us more ground clearance and less drag. > > Here are my questions: > > 1. Can you use a yagi with elements only on one side when you have a ground > plane just like a quarter wave dipole? In theory, with a perfectly flat perfectly conducting infinite plane -- yes. In practice -- probably. You could spend a bunch of time messing with EzNEC or other antenna modeling software, or you could just give this a try. > > 2. Would the 17" square hole that the antenna sticks out in the belly of > make much of a difference in the ground plane? (this could be remedied). > Oh yes. If possible you should make the antenna's ground plane electrically contiguous with the skin of the heli, which should itself be electrically contiguous -- I'm not sure if you can count on that being the case. > 3. For maximum gain, what needs to be grounded to the helicopter if > anything: non radiating elements, the receiver, etc.? All of above. For this to work in theory you need to have the center of each element well grounded to your ground plane. > > 4. What effect does diameter or material of elements have. I figure I can > chop down car antennas (my present dipole) which are very cheap and sturdy > enough to take 170 MPH winds. In general elements need to get shorter as they get fatter, and the bandwidth goes up. > > 5. What are good sites on making the right antenna? > Dunno, Google on "Yagi". If it were me I'd get a copy of the ARRL Handbook or antenna book, copy a compact 2m yagi from that and scale it as appropriate for the new wavelength. -- Tim Wescott Wescott Design Services http://www.wescottdesign.com Posting from Google? See http://cfaj.freeshell.org/google/ "Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" came out in April. See details at http://www.wescottdesign.com/actfes/actfes.html Article: 226029 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Michael Coslo Subject: Re: All Band Coax-fed Dipole ?????????? Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2006 12:24:34 -0400 Message-ID: References: <449e9959$0$16418$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> <12a21gtrbsfkf63@corp.supernews.com> <3s44a2dbc1aqbvgph1o7a3b60h0rkpt6o2@4ax.com> <2kd5a2djg2e651n4bpe6o7c4e0vvdkn93v@4ax.com> <4s6dnekOK9iOqT7ZnZ2dnUVZ_sOdnZ2d@adelphia.com> <12a6ig7ghnskr92@corp.supernews.com> <12a9b7dqlb92he0@corp.supernews.com> <44a58e0f$0$16357$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> Mike Coslo wrote: > gravity wrote: >> "Michael Coslo" wrote in message >> news:e841jg$1b9i$1@f04n12.cac.psu.edu... >> >> >>> As a *very* loose definition of work, I would say that I would expect >>> an antenna that advertises itself as an "all band" would allow a modern >>> Transceiver to put our something like full power, that is, to not fold >>> back on power. Oh yeah, and to radiate something. I don't see a tuner in >>> that diagram, so take your pick whether they are assuming an internal >> >> tuner. >> >> >> if i bought a similar antenna, i'd assume i'd need a tuner. i mean i >> needed >> one with my 120 foot (60 + 60) foot doublet. you don't even need a real >> fancy tuner, mine was a small Yaesu digital. it did have some >> problems on >> 40 meters (high Z?). > > That antenna *would* work okay with ladder line, and a tuner that > could handle the same. > > I decided to do something really radical. I just sent off an email > to BuxComm to ask just what type of antenna it is.... Tech support at BuxComm emailed me back, and the antenna is indeed *not* an OCF. It is an equal leg length antenna. My deduction was incorrect. What an odd antenna! I was referred to a similar antenna in the ARRL handbook, although I'll note that it used ladder line instead of a balun and coax. The response was very prompt and courteous, and although I could see myself buying some of their other antennas, I think I'll pass on that one! 8^) - 73 de Mike KB3EIA - Article: 226030 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: nospam@nouce.bellatlantic.net Subject: Re: Help with NASA / Canaveral helicopter yagi antenna Message-ID: References: <3atga2lanedo1jkc9vm4e2qlht71dce8bm@4ax.com> Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2006 16:33:29 GMT On Mon, 03 Jul 2006 09:04:34 -0700, Tim Wescott wrote: >nospam@nouce.bellatlantic.net wrote: >> On Mon, 03 Jul 2006 00:22:31 GMT, "Robert Haston" >> wrote: >> >> >>>I am a pilot in the 301st Rescue Squadron at Patrick AFB, south of Cape >>>Canaveral. We use helicopters to clear boats out of the Space Shuttle and >>>Rocket danger zones off the coast. >>> >>>I've bought some marine band 161-162 MHz (87 & 88 marine band) Automated >>>Identification System (AIS) receivers to receive data transmissions from >>>larger vessels. To maximize the reception of targets up to 60 miles out, I >>>need a somewhat directional antenna, say a 2 or 3 element yagi. >>> >>>The belly of our Blackhawk variant Pavehawk helicopters offers a mount and a >>>7 foot wide ground plane via the cargo hook on its belly. I can make the >>>mount sideways and reversible so we can track big boats coming at us from >>>the poles while we work all the little sport fishermen that infest the >>>narrow east west azimuth out to 50 miles. >>> >>>What I would like to do is use half of an antenna and use the aircraft as a >>>ground plane to give us more ground clearance and less drag. >>> >>>Here are my questions: >>> >>>1. Can you use a yagi with elements only on one side when you have a ground >>>plane just like a quarter wave dipole? >>> >>>2. Would the 17" square hole that the antenna sticks out in the belly of >>>make much of a difference in the ground plane? (this could be remedied). >>> >>>3. For maximum gain, what needs to be grounded to the helicopter if >>>anything: non radiating elements, the receiver, etc.? >>> >>>4. What effect does diameter or material of elements have. I figure I can >>>chop down car antennas (my present dipole) which are very cheap and sturdy >>>enough to take 170 MPH winds. >>> >>>5. What are good sites on making the right antenna? >>> >>>Thanks, >>> >>>I'll be happy to exchange lots of images of the equipment in action in >>>exchange. >> >> >> Simple solution. Lookup a "Half Square" or "Bobtail" as this would >> work for VHF and fit you mouning concerns. >> >> WWW.CEBIK.COM Is a good site, read down the tales and technicals page >> to the section on VHF antennas. >> >> However, from 4000ft, your line of sight for a simple monopole is >> sufficient to get you that far out. Hint: if you can communicate with >> VHF aircraft radio (118-136mhz) at that range VHF marine will also >> work. For VHF altitude is a valuable assist for range. >> >> Allison >> >I believe that a helicopter pilot's nose starts bleeding at 1000ft -- at >least that's what my fixed-wing pilot friends tell me. ;) I be a fixed wing pilot. My best friends are rotorheads and 4000 is not that high. When you get to 8000 and above then they have issues. However the real reason for choppers is low means you see what's down there. They don't like high for another reason, that being fuel to get up there. The military boys can hit 8000+ no sweat. I took a 1.5W dual bander flying once for laughs. From 4500ft I could key up any repeater in NE! Of course ask your flying friends what unicom (122.7, 122.8, 122.9) sound like on the AC radios at those alts. Usually from mid MA I can hear unicom stations and airplanes in the pattern in northern NJ. Height is good! Allison Article: 226031 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Win Subject: Re: Help with NASA / Canaveral helicopter yagi antenna Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2006 11:49:19 -0500 Message-ID: <62iia2t15d7jvpa0qnlnjkcemmq3bh5685@4ax.com> References: Robert, I think I would get my hands on another militart type (aerodynamic) vhf aircraft antenna and then have my aircraft electronics shop cut it down for your frequence and then install it. You know from your air-to-ground VHF communications what to expect >from it. I don't think you can do much better than that. Over water, at any altitude above a few hundred feet MSL, I would think it would cover your area of interest. Win, w0lz Article: 226032 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "John Passaneau" References: <1151864918.202153.64940@v61g2000cwv.googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: Creating dual band HF antennas using a loading coils. Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2006 13:28:05 -0400 Message-ID: <0NudnW-tK-07zjTZnZ2dnUVZ_tGdnZ2d@adelphia.com> My antenna for 160/80/40/30 is as follows: 160m loaded dipole shortened to 200' with 30uHy inductors so it will fit in the lot. 80/40 parallel fan full size dipoles at right angles to 160m dipole 30m the loading coils on the 160m dipole act as RFC's or traps on 30m to isolate the center section of the dipole as a full size dipole on 30m. All with a common feed point through a home brew 1:1 current balun. I was modeling the whole array before moving the loading coils in EZNEC and noticed that I had a near perfect resonate point at about 6MHz defined by the loading coils on the shortened 160m dipoles center loading coils. As this is in a shortwave broadcast band it was hitting the front end of my radio with very strong signals. As I'm a DXer I didn't like the idea that strong out of band signals may have been degrading my in band receive performance. The idea of moving the coils in to make a 30m dipole came to me as a good way to fix the problem and give me a antenna on a band I had no antenna for. To keep the length of the 160 dipole at 200' when moving the loading coils in to make 30m dipole required increasing the inductance to 30uHy's. The SWR is a reasonable 1.2:1 and seems to work quite well. As 160 and 30m are the only bands I don't have DXCC on, I'm making good progress on 30m to getting it, not so good on 160m as I don't have an amplifier on 160m. -- John Passaneau W3JXP State College Pa. w3jxp@adelphia.net wrote in message news:1151864918.202153.64940@v61g2000cwv.googlegroups.com... > Here are a couple messages I posted on eHam net. Any comments would be > appreciated. > > Thanks, > > Doug VE3XDB > > -- > MESSAGE #1: > > Hi everyone, > > I am thinking of building a center loaded fan dipole. One wire dipole > to cover 20 and 40 metres, and a second wire diple, connected at the > same feedpoint, to cover 30 and 17 metres. Coils would be placed at the > resonant point of the higher frequency, acting as both an RF choke and > a loading coil. My question is this. I would like to have the wire > beyond the coil as long as possible, but would still like the coil to > have enough inductance to act as an effective RF choke for the higher > band. > > Other than through experimentation, how would one calculate or > determine this mix of inductance/length? > > Best regards, > > Doug VE3XDB > > -- > MESSAGE #2: > > Thanks for your replies. I know the technique does work. The Alpha > Delta DX-CC puts a loading coil at the end of a 40 meter dipole, and > adds about 9 feet of wire past the coil. This creates a dipole that > resonates on 40 and 80 meters. Here is a link: > > http://www.alphadeltacom.com/pg1.htm > > As well, coil loaded HF antennas are described in "The Radio Amateur > Antenna Handbook" by Bill Orr W6SAI and Stuart Cowan W2LX (Published in > 1993 by Radio Amateur Callbook, a Division of BPI Communications Inc., > pages 147 to 151). > > Typical dual band antennas, of the type used for 2 meter/70 cm > operation mobile are coil-loaded whips. Reg G4FGQ wrote a program > called LOADCOIL.EXE that calculates the characteristics of a loading > coil at any point on an antenna radiator of a given length. > > I know the length of wire necessary to resonant the antenna at the > higher frequency, and can figure out the coil required based on the > length of wire past the coil. What I don't know is what is the maximum > wire length, and therefore minimum inductance, necessary to have the > antenna resonate on 2 bands. > > Here is what I calculated, using Reg's program. > > 20-40 meter combination (resonant at 14.150 and 7.150 MHz) > > Feedpoint to coil 16.54' > Coil 17.73 uH > Coil to end of antenna 7.46' > > 30-17 meter combination (resonant at 10.120 and 18.100) > > Feedpoint to coil 12.93' > Coil 11.21 uH > Coil to end of antenna 5.07' > > This creates an antenna that is about 75% full size on 30 and 40 > meters, full size on 17 and 20 meters. > > What I'm trying to determine is the maximum length of the radiator (and > minimum inducatance) necessary to achieve dual band capability. > > Any insights? > > Best regards, > > Doug VE3XDB > Article: 226033 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Chuck Olson" Subject: Re: Resonant Stub Measurement Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2006 11:14:56 -0700 Message-ID: I made some comparison measurements between various twinlead types after experiencing some difficulty in obtaining a 1:1 SWR in a Slim Jim 2M J-Pole using Channel Master 9354 Vinyl / Polyfoam 300-ohm cable I bought at Fry's. The enhancement/absorption disturbance of the coupled signal (see previous post, below) by the 1/4-wave stub measured 6.7 dB with the CM cable, while some old Belden 8225 ribbon-type 300-ohm cable showed an 11.6 dB peak to valley measurement and 450-ohm ladder line using 18 ga solid conductors displayed a huge 35.8 dB effect. I believe the magnitude of the phenomenon is partly related to the Q of the resonant stub, and in turn to its ability to reach a high enough impedance at the open end to match the end impedance of the 1/2-wave radiator. And of course, surrounding the stub with PVC tubing reduces the effect a bit, so that the CM cable peak-to-valley measurement goes to 6.0 dB. I found fair success in wrapping the Belden 8225 stub section with some 1/8" thick foam sheet one can buy from a packing and shipping store to stabilize the effect of PVC tubing on the Velocity Factor of this cable. I cut a 1.5" wide strip from a 24" wide foam sheet and fastened the wrap with Mylar tape every 2.5" above the feed tap to keep the conductors spaced away from the PVC wall. My final design had a 16.53" stub, 38.65" radiator, Feed tap at 1.75" and gap of 0.25", resulting in a 1.0 SWR at 145.48 MHz with R = 53 and X = 2 on the MFJ-269 Analyzer, and a 2:1 SWR bandwidth of 7.16 MHz (141.80 to 148.96 MHz). The best SWR I could get with the Channel Master 9354, using a similar foam wrap inside the PVC was 1.3 at 145.98 MHz. This design had a 16.375" stub, 37.88" radiator, 1.625 feed tap and 0.375 gap. Its 2:1 SWR bandwidth was 5.08 MHz (143.72 to 148.80 MHz). Of course both Slim Jim J-Poles will work well when applied at a suitable height, so don't lament too deeply the scarcity of Belden twinlead - - but if you see any at a swapmeet, it might be worthwhile to replenish your supply. 73, Chuck, W6PKP "Chuck Olson" wrote in message news:NPCdnemFTdwxig7ZnZ2dnUVZ_vydnZ2d@comcast.com... > I think I've found a way to measure the resonant frequency of a shorted stub > for the purpose of determining the Velocity Factor of twinlead cable. > Unfortunately it requires the use of an HP3577A Network Analyzer, but I > latched on to a used one a few years ago on Ebay, so I can have all kinds of > fun with it. But there's a question of how to interpret the results. > > I use two small one turn Faraday-shielded loops that I made out of RG58 a > while back to induce or detect signals in various circuitry. For the purpose > of this measurement, I loosely couple two of them, one from the analyzer > source and the other to its receiver, about 4" apart with the loops parallel > and axially aligned. Then I introduce the stub midway into the space between > the loops, oriented for a maximum effect and observe a small peak followed > by a small dip in the received spectrum sweep. My question is, which is the > true measurement of the resonance of the stub - - the peak or the dip or the > zero-crossing between them, and why? Up to now, I've felt the dip is the > correct feature to use, since at resonance the stub patently steals a little > energy from the coupled fields, but that doesn't really say why it steals > energy, or why the peak isn't just as valid an indicator. > > Thanks for your help, > > Chuck, W6PKP > > Article: 226034 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Owen Duffy Subject: Re: All Band Coax-fed Dipole ?????????? Message-ID: <5a3ja21goet743mo32ebnnbmkd2tvr7mr6@4ax.com> References: <2kd5a2djg2e651n4bpe6o7c4e0vvdkn93v@4ax.com> <4s6dnekOK9iOqT7ZnZ2dnUVZ_sOdnZ2d@adelphia.com> <12a6ig7ghnskr92@corp.supernews.com> <12a9b7dqlb92he0@corp.supernews.com> <44a58e0f$0$16357$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2006 21:41:57 GMT On Mon, 03 Jul 2006 12:24:34 -0400, Michael Coslo wrote: >Tech support at BuxComm emailed me back, and the antenna is indeed >*not* an OCF. It is an equal leg length antenna. My deduction was incorrect. Thanks Mike... Owen -- Article: 226035 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: bob@coolgroups.com Subject: VHF signals Date: 3 Jul 2006 17:56:49 -0700 Message-ID: <1151974609.070027.256830@a14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> How far away from viewers are VHF signals typically broadcast? (i.e. up to 1000 miles) Article: 226036 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2006 21:57:01 -0400 From: Mike Coslo Subject: Re: VHF signals References: <1151974609.070027.256830@a14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> Message-ID: bob@coolgroups.com wrote: > How far away from viewers are VHF signals typically broadcast? > (i.e. up to 1000 miles) Pretty much line of sight is the rule at VHF and above. The line of sight is baaed on the curvature of the earth, and modified by the respective heights of the two stations. A nice little on-line calculator is at: http://www.qsl.net/kd4sai/distance.html enter the heights of the two antennas, and it will calculate the distance that you can expect to cover. Sometimes there are propagation effects that will dramatically extend the range, but these are the exception not the rule, and although amateurs have a lot of fun with the effect, it isn't reliable for any length of time. - 73 de Mike KB3EIA - Article: 226037 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Buck Subject: Re: Creating dual band HF antennas using a loading coils. Message-ID: References: <1151864918.202153.64940@v61g2000cwv.googlegroups.com> Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2006 23:51:47 -0400 On Sun, 2 Jul 2006 18:43:35 -0000, "Dave" wrote: >you don't want to think 'loading coils' you want to think 'traps'. they are >two very different animals. loading coils are simply inductors that make >the wire look longer electrically so you don't need as much room. traps are >resonant circuits that exhibit a very large impedance at their tuned >frequency so that it cuts off part of the antenna. usually you use a trap >for multi-band dipoles, the first trap out from the center is tuned to cut >off the outside of the element at the highest frequency, and then at lower >frequencies it looks more like a small inductor so helps a bit as a loading >coil on the lower band. > > Actually, if you check the ARRL antenna handbook or the annual handbook, or maybe even the web site, they have a dual band 80/40 meter dipole that uses loading coils instead of traps. One version uses a drop wire at the end of the 40 meter band to trim without moving the coils or adjusting the 80 meter frequency. I haven't tried it, but I have seen other antennas designed on it's principal, mainly vertical 1/4 wave antennas, but they worked so I see no reason the dipole shouldn't. Will the fan-dual-band dipole work? I suspect so. However, I highly suspect that the parallel dipole (a fan with the elements 6-8 inches below each other) will work better. Good luck Buck -- 73 for now Buck N4PGW Article: 226038 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: VHF signals From: Dave Oldridge References: <1151974609.070027.256830@a14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> Message-ID: Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2006 04:26:08 GMT Mike Coslo wrote in news:AKadnTi3lLttVzTZnZ2dnUVZ_vednZ2d@adelphia.com: > bob@coolgroups.com wrote: >> How far away from viewers are VHF signals typically broadcast? >> (i.e. up to 1000 miles) > Pretty much line of sight is the rule at VHF and above. The line of > sight is baaed on the curvature of the earth, and modified by the > respective heights of the two stations. > > A nice little on-line calculator is at: > > http://www.qsl.net/kd4sai/distance.html > > enter the heights of the two antennas, and it will calculate the > distance that you can expect to cover. > > > Sometimes there are propagation effects that will dramatically > extend > the range, but these are the exception not the rule, and although > amateurs have a lot of fun with the effect, it isn't reliable for any > length of time. Yep...and tropo scatter, the only RELIABLE long-haul VHF mode is way too weak for TV broadcasting, though it does work great on CW or SSB with good antennas and equipment. When I had a 19el antenna at 85 feet in Nova Scotia, I could reliably work Cape Cod, 500 miles away, on 2m CW. But it took high selectivity, and a good preamp even with that antenna and both stations running about 600 watts out. About 60db overall path gain over a 1w signal. Plus the bandwidth gain from TV to CW is about an additional 48db. -- Dave Oldridge+ ICQ 1800667 Article: 226039 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Owen Duffy Subject: Re: Creating dual band HF antennas using a loading coils. Message-ID: References: <1151864918.202153.64940@v61g2000cwv.googlegroups.com> Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2006 05:13:25 GMT On Sun, 2 Jul 2006 18:43:35 -0000, "Dave" wrote: >you don't want to think 'loading coils' you want to think 'traps'. they are >two very different animals. loading coils are simply inductors that make >the wire look longer electrically so you don't need as much room. traps are >resonant circuits that exhibit a very large impedance at their tuned >frequency so that it cuts off part of the antenna. usually you use a trap >for multi-band dipoles, the first trap out from the center is tuned to cut >off the outside of the element at the highest frequency, and then at lower >frequencies it looks more like a small inductor so helps a bit as a loading >coil on the lower band. Yes, but the trap (which is a parallel tuned circuit) doesn't need to be resonant in one of the operating bands, and there are reasons for choosing resonance other than at an operating frequency. For example, you can design a 40/80 trapped antenna that uses a trap resonant around 6MHz. Such a configuration requires a bit more complex explanation than the trap "cutting off" part of the antenna (which it doesn't do anyway). Owen -- Article: 226040 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Message-ID: <44A9F979.4050207@rickfrazier.com> Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2006 19:15:37 -1000 From: Rick Frazier Subject: Re: Anyone here think they would pay for a map like this? References: <2mkog.58280$9c6.45638@dukeread11> I suppose someone that didn't have a PC available to run DXATLAS might want a wall map. For myself, wall space is at a premium, so anything that I can do with the PC is better for me than a wall map. DxAtlas (available shareware at dxatlas.com, $29.95 registration after some preview time) provides a wealth of information relative to what you are describing. Not only can you set it for your QTH and display the world as a map, you can click on a given location and it will give you the bearing heading and distance! It also integrates well with other packages such as IonoProbe, and a large group of other programs... All much more useful than a wall map, in my estimation... Thanks --Rick AH7H Chris W wrote: > Robert Haston wrote: > >> Google Earth will give you the coordinates of a point anywhere. There >> are lots of free ways to convert lat long to bearing such as >> trigonometry spreadsheets - or a GPS. > > > I'm obviously not explaining myself very well. I'm not trying to say I > have come up with some new revolutionary way to determine what heading > some place is from you. The ways of doing that are endless. Which one > is best, depends on the situation. Sure there are a number of places > you can purchase a map and draw radials on it. However the chances of > getting one that covers the area you want it to and having it centered > where you want it aren't very good. Drawing all that on a map by hand > is just way too much work if you ask me. I just think it is kind of > cool to have a large map hanging on my wall centered at my location with > radials going out. But hey I just like maps, guess that makes me weird. > > Article: 226041 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Roy Lewallen Subject: Re: Creating dual band HF antennas using a loading coils. Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2006 22:16:07 -0700 Message-ID: <12ajucp4in6plfb@corp.supernews.com> References: <1151864918.202153.64940@v61g2000cwv.googlegroups.com> Owen Duffy wrote: > On Sun, 2 Jul 2006 18:43:35 -0000, "Dave" wrote: > >> you don't want to think 'loading coils' you want to think 'traps'. they are >> two very different animals. loading coils are simply inductors that make >> the wire look longer electrically so you don't need as much room. traps are >> resonant circuits that exhibit a very large impedance at their tuned >> frequency so that it cuts off part of the antenna. usually you use a trap >> for multi-band dipoles, the first trap out from the center is tuned to cut >> off the outside of the element at the highest frequency, and then at lower >> frequencies it looks more like a small inductor so helps a bit as a loading >> coil on the lower band. > > Yes, but the trap (which is a parallel tuned circuit) doesn't need to > be resonant in one of the operating bands, and there are reasons for > choosing resonance other than at an operating frequency. For example, > you can design a 40/80 trapped antenna that uses a trap resonant > around 6MHz. > > Such a configuration requires a bit more complex explanation than the > trap "cutting off" part of the antenna (which it doesn't do anyway). I believe that the W3DZZ antenna uses this principle to get a reasonable match on several bands with only one pair of "traps". Roy Lewallen, W7EL Article: 226042 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Reg Edwards" References: <1151864918.202153.64940@v61g2000cwv.googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: Creating dual band HF antennas using a loading coils. Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2006 06:44:10 +0100 Message-ID: "Owen Duffy" wrote > Yes, but the trap (which is a parallel tuned circuit) doesn't need to > be resonant in one of the operating bands, and there are reasons for > choosing resonance other than at an operating frequency. For example, > you can design a 40/80 trapped antenna that uses a trap resonant > around 6MHz. > ====================================== Use program NOTATRAP. The parallel tuned circuit is not a trap at either of the operating frequencies. Its resonant frequency lies in between the two operating frequencies. The two operating frequencies do not necessarily have to be harmonically related. ---- ........................................................... Regards from Reg, G4FGQ For Free Radio Design Software go to http://www.btinternet.com/~g4fgq.regp ........................................................... Article: 226043 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: w8ji@akorn.net Subject: Re: Distributed Loaded Monopole-technology based antennas Date: 4 Jul 2006 04:48:10 -0700 Message-ID: <1152013689.783086.209020@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com> References: Glenn M=F8ller-Holst wrote: > Regarding a new philosophy for constructing shortened antennas. What is new about it? That same scheme has been used since the 70's on CB antennas. > Have somebody experience with Distributed Loaded Monopole-technology > based antennas. > Please look on slide number 10, 19, 24, 53: > http://www.uri.edu/news/vincent/boxboro_files/frame.htm > > Slide 25 shows how it is constructed: > http://www.uri.edu/news/vincent/boxboro_files/frame.htm > > According to the following test, the antenna should be good - and maybe > better than other shortened antennas. 70% efficiency for a 1/4 wave > shortened antenna, is that good?: All of his measurements are seriously lacking substance. I wouldn't trust them. To answer your question, there is NOTHING that indicates his method improves performance, and a great deal that indicates it is far from an optimum system. > > April 28, 2005 Navy gives URI's small antenna big results > http://www.uri.edu/news/releases/?id=3D3126 > Quote: "... > In addition, the gain of Vincent's capacity Top Hat DLM antenna, which > incorporates a helix, a load coil, a capacitive top hat utilizing radial > spokes at the top of the antenna and a horizontal plane was nearly > identical to the ideal quarter wave antenna. Its bandwidth was greater > than 5 percent of the operating frequency and the antenna is more than > 70 percent shorter than an ideal quarter wave antenna. So what, that's nothing special. And who tested it and how was it compared? Who signed off on the tests? It all reads like snake oil to me. > Vincent's standard DLM antennas with a standard helix and load coil were > also tested at various frequencies. All exhibited gains nearly equal to > the ideal antenna with bandwidths of 3 to 10 percent. The antennas were > 33 to 40 percent shorter. So what? And who signed off on the tests, and how were they made? > Test Report of U.R.I. DLM ANTENNAS > By The NAVAL UNDERSEA WARFARE CENTER Of Newport, Rhode Island At The > NUWC Fishers Island, New York One MileTest Range March 31, 2005. > Robert Vincent Dept. Physics University of Rhode Island Kingston, RI 02881 > http://www.uri.edu/news/vincent/report05/testreport.pdf > Quote: "... > The overall data error of this facility is less than 0.2db. in any one > measurement. > ... > The reference monopole can considered as a perfect monopole operating > over a perfect ground system. NUWC calculates this reference antenna > level over their calibrated one mile range. What do they mean "calculates"??? That's a very odd word, because it implies they never MEASURED the reference antenna. Also no one states what the reference antenna was, other than a "perfect monopole over perfect groundplane". IF it was perfect, that means it was not a real antrenna. If it was not a real antenna, we are at the mercy of calculations. I can assure you that is NOT how an antenna test is done on a test range. It is also impossible for a significantly shorter antenna to have gain over a perfect monopole over perfect ground when the antenna under test uses a real ground and real antenna losses. In my opinion, the press releases are all bullcrap. =2E.. > Antenna type Gain db** > 7MHz Plano Spiral Top Hat -Super DLM" +.06db (100% virkningsgrad) > ... > 7 MHz Standard DLM #1 -1.71db (67% virkningsgrad) > 7 MHz Standard DLM #2 -1.56db (70% virkningsgrad) > ... > 10 MHz Standard DLM #1 -1.14db (77% virkningsgrad) > 10 MHz Standard DLM #2 -1.37db (73% virkningsgrad) > ... > Percentage of operating antenna length as compared to a =B3 wave monopole > is indicated below. . > > Antenna type %1/4 wave > Plano Spiral Top DLM (super DLM) 50% > Standard DLM 33% > ..." Since the 1920's it has been well established a 1/8th wave tall monopole has about the same FS as a full size antenna when over a very good ground system.=20 Big deal. 73 Tom Article: 226044 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Wes Stewart Subject: Re: Distributed Loaded Monopole-technology based antennas Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2006 06:32:32 -0700 Message-ID: References: On Sat, 01 Jul 2006 17:59:53 +0200, Glenn Møller-Holst wrote: >Regarding a new philosophy for constructing shortened antennas. K1DFT all over again. I do wonder how he weaseled the Navy into wasting time on this. Article: 226045 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Reg Edwards" References: <1151864918.202153.64940@v61g2000cwv.googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: Creating dual band HF antennas using a loading coils. Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2006 18:24:00 +0100 Message-ID: "Reg Edwards" wrote > Use program NOTATRAP. The parallel tuned circuit is not a trap at > either of the operating frequencies. Its resonant frequency lies in > between the two operating frequencies. The two operating frequencies > do not necessarily have to be harmonically related. > ---- > ........................................................... > Regards from Reg, G4FGQ > For Free Radio Design Software go to > http://www.btinternet.com/~g4fgq.regp > ........................................................... > ========================================== There is a small advantage. The whole length of the antenna is used at both frequencies. Furthermore, the antenna can be used multi-band at frequencies higher than the lowest design frequency. Including the frequency at which the trap is resonant if it lies in an amateur band. But there will be some peculiar drive-point impedances presented to the transmission line plus tuner. For multiband use one might just as well remove the trap which is not a trap and use the antenna simply as a random length wire. ---- Reg Article: 226046 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Me Subject: Re: VHF signals References: <1151974609.070027.256830@a14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> Message-ID: Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2006 17:30:43 GMT In article , Dave Oldridge wrote: > Yep...and tropo scatter, the only RELIABLE long-haul VHF mode is way too > weak for TV broadcasting, Oh, I wouldn't class Wideband TropoScatter in the unreliable folder. The AirForce built the White Alice System in Alaska in the 50's and it had some 300 to 400 mile shots that ran 24/7 with 5 Mhz bandwidth or more. Yea, it took 60 foot high Parabolic Antennas, and 20Kw feeds, but it worked at 900 Mhz and was very reliable, with uptimes in the 99.7% range. Me one of the older guys who can actually remember he hardware involved....... Article: 226047 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "electro" Subject: 50 ohm feedlines for SOC's Date: 4 Jul 2006 10:38:28 -0700 Message-ID: <1152034708.507361.28960@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com> hello, 50 ohm is the standard port impedance.for 2.4GHz and an Fr4 substrate of say 4.2 dielectric constant and 1.6mm height, the computed/simulated Zo from ADS2004a line calc, is equivalent to about 3.12mm. also, for traces less than 1/20 of the guided wavelength, matching is not necessary. the question is this, most of the RFIC's or SOC's usually employ RF feedlines at 2.4GHz lower than the 3.12 mm computed. for one, a Sige 2.4GHz amplifier RFin and RFout port is about .62 mm and the fact that the trace extends greater than 1/20 or 1/10 of the guided wavelength...or is it because they used a different substrate of higher dielectric??? thanks Article: 226048 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "n3ox.dan@gmail.com" Subject: Re: VHF signals Date: 4 Jul 2006 12:29:49 -0700 Message-ID: <1152041389.849053.265880@v61g2000cwv.googlegroups.com> References: <1151974609.070027.256830@a14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> Hard to rely on the RX end of broadcast to put up sufficient antennas to hear troposcatter signals... Maybe with lots and lots of power on the TX end and a robust digital mode you could do troposcatter broadcasting to the general public, but it's a lot easier for point to point links.. Dan Me wrote: > In article , > Dave Oldridge wrote: > > > Yep...and tropo scatter, the only RELIABLE long-haul VHF mode is way too > > weak for TV broadcasting, > > Oh, I wouldn't class Wideband TropoScatter in the unreliable folder. > The AirForce built the White Alice System in Alaska in the 50's and it > had some 300 to 400 mile shots that ran 24/7 with 5 Mhz bandwidth or > more. Yea, it took 60 foot high Parabolic Antennas, and 20Kw feeds, but > it worked at 900 Mhz and was very reliable, with uptimes in the 99.7% > range. > > Me one of the older guys who can actually remember > he hardware involved....... Article: 226049 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2006 15:33:18 -0400 From: Dave Subject: Re: VHF signals References: <1151974609.070027.256830@a14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> Message-ID: bob@coolgroups.com wrote: > How far away from viewers are VHF signals typically broadcast? > (i.e. up to 1000 miles) > Well the exact answer to the exact question is: As far away as they can be!! [I'm in New Hampshire and I'm sure somewhere in Europe VHF signals are being transmitted. But, I surely can't hear them :-) Allowing for the ambiguous wording and hopefully moving to the intent of the question A 1000 feet high tower will have about a 50 mile radius range. A 2000 feet high tower will have about a 70 mile range. a 200 feet high tower will have about a 20 mile range. Article: 226050 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: jgboyles@aol.com Subject: Re: 50 ohm feedlines for SOC's Date: 4 Jul 2006 17:05:22 -0700 Message-ID: <1152057922.064118.286120@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com> References: <1152034708.507361.28960@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com> electro wrote: > hello, > > 50 ohm is the standard port impedance.for 2.4GHz and an Fr4 substrate > of say 4.2 dielectric constant and 1.6mm height, the computed/simulated > Zo from ADS2004a line calc, is equivalent to about 3.12mm. also, for > traces less than 1/20 of the guided wavelength, matching is not > necessary. > > the question is this, most of the RFIC's or SOC's usually employ RF > feedlines at 2.4GHz lower than the 3.12 mm computed. for one, a Sige > 2.4GHz amplifier RFin and RFout port is about .62 mm and the fact that > the trace extends greater than 1/20 or 1/10 of the guided > wavelength...or is it because they used a different substrate of higher > dielectric??? > > thanks Hi Electro, If you are posing these questions to a Ham Radio Newsgroup, then you need to explain what an ADS2004a, RFIC, and SOC is related to the 2.4GHZ band. I have been a Ham for 45 years and never heard of this stuff. There may be a Ham band around 2.4 GHZ, but for me 70cm is the highest. Maybe some microwave guys will give you some answers. Good Luck. Gary N4AST Article: 226051 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Ron Walters Subject: Optibeam Message-ID: Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2006 00:52:50 GMT Would appreciate comments relative to the Optibeam Log Periodic 14-30MHz antennas, I am also considering the SteppIR antenna but I am concerned with the mechanical and electric potential problems with that antenna. Getting on in age and tower climbing is s chore for me. Any suggestions or comments? Ron W4LDE Article: 226052 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Sal M. Onella" References: <1151974609.070027.256830@a14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: VHF signals Message-ID: <5YGqg.1043$lv.31@fed1read12> Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2006 21:09:37 -0700 wrote in message news:1151974609.070027.256830@a14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com... > How far away from viewers are VHF signals typically broadcast? > (i.e. up to 1000 miles) > I'm guessing you are asking about "DX" or "DX'ing," the art, science and hobby of long-distance communications. One good TV DX website is http://www.w9wi.com/. 1000 miles is unlikely but not impossible. 100 miles is quite reasonable I am 124 miles south of Mt Wilson, the transmitter site for Los Angeles TV, and I get them more or less reliably with antennas about 30 feet above ground. At that distance, the problem is not signal strength, but it is being behind the "bump" caused by the curvature of the earth. Mt. Wilson does me a big favor by being about a mile high. Some years ago in Norfolk, Virginia, I watched a late-night movie from a station in Buffalo NY, over 400 miles away. The picture was snowy, but good enough to permit enjoying the movie. That was a rarity, as most nights after that I saw little or nothing of that station. Article: 226053 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "XXXXX" Subject: RF Technical Jobs in australia Date: 4 Jul 2006 22:12:02 -0700 Message-ID: <1152076322.822190.56020@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com> if any bodies interested you can visit this link http://www.adl.com.au/recruitment.html Article: 226054 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2006 10:40:48 +0000 From: Scott Subject: Re: VHF signals References: <1151974609.070027.256830@a14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <5YGqg.1043$lv.31@fed1read12> Message-ID: The best TV DX I have ever had was one night in the winter (Jan. or Feb.) back about 1992. I was living in far Northern Wisconsin and I got the news from a New Orleans TV station (Ch. 3 I believe) and the video was very good with full sound. I had the TV running in the other room and didn't even suspect that it was not my normal channel out of Duluth, MN until the weather forecast came on and said the high temp expected was going to be in the low 80s (that would be VERY unusual Wisconsin weather for the middle of winter)!! Scott Sal M. Onella wrote: > > Some years ago in Norfolk, Virginia, I watched a late-night movie from a > station in Buffalo NY, over 400 miles away. The picture was snowy, but good > enough to permit enjoying the movie. That was a rarity, as most nights > after that I saw little or nothing of that station. > > Article: 226055 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2006 07:36:34 -0400 From: Dave Subject: Re: Optibeam References: Message-ID: I looked at their web site and did not see a 'Log Periodic'. Their antennas seem to be Yagi based. A L-P is a driven array, not parasitic, and broad banded so that the VSWR never exceeds a max value, typically 1.7:1, ANYWHERE in the spectrum from 14 to 30 MHz in the bandwidth you mentioned. Do you have a model number? /s/ DD W1MCE Ron Walters wrote: > Would appreciate comments relative to the Optibeam Log Periodic 14-30MHz > antennas, I am also considering the SteppIR antenna but I am concerned > with the mechanical and electric potential problems with that antenna. > Getting on in age and tower climbing is s chore for me. Any suggestions > or comments? > > Ron W4LDE Article: 226056 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Richard Fry" References: <1151974609.070027.256830@a14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <5YGqg.1043$lv.31@fed1read12> Subject: Re: VHF signals Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2006 07:33:53 -0500 Message-ID: <44abb100_5@newsfeed.slurp.net> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0081_01C6A005.5DDAD160 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Sal M. Onella" wrote: > I am 124 miles south of Mt Wilson, the transmitter site > for Los Angeles TV, and I get them more or less reliably > with antennas about 30 feet above ground. At that distance, > the problem is not signal strength, but it is being behind > the "bump" caused by the curvature of the earth. Mt.Wilson > does me a big favor by being about a mile high. ______________ Attached is a gif showing a 98 MHz path from Mt Wilson to a location near Alpine, CA, which is 124 miles SE (due S is in the ocean). More than earth curvature is affecting this path -- there are three points where the signal must diffract over terrain peaks to reach the receive antenna. Each diffraction point adds loss to the free-space value for that path. As shown on the graphic, the free-space loss is ~118 dB, and the diffraction loss adds ~75 dB to that. Assuming that the Mt Wilson FM station radiated 100 kW on that radial, the average field strength at a 30 foot elevation at the receive site would be several microvolts/meter and rather variable over time, but probably could provide a listenable signal to a good receiver system. This is just an estimate of the locations in the post quoted above, but will give an idea of what may be going on. 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226057 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2006 09:53:23 -0400 From: Dave Subject: Re: Optibeam References: Message-ID: Dave wrote: > I looked at their web site and did not see a 'Log Periodic'. > > Their antennas seem to be Yagi based. A L-P is a driven array, not > parasitic, and broad banded so that the VSWR never exceeds a max value, > typically 1.7:1, ANYWHERE in the spectrum from 14 to 30 MHz in the > bandwidth you mentioned. > > Do you have a model number? > > /s/ DD W1MCE > Additional info re: Log Periodics. Typical VSWR values for a 13 to 30 MHz LP are as follows: 13.5 MHz ... 1.7:1 13.7 MHz ... 1.6:1 13.9 MHz ... 1.4:1 14.1 MHz ... 1.3:1 14.3 MHz ... 1.4:1 14.5 MHz ... 1.5:1 14.7 MHz ... 1.7:1 14.9 MHz ... 1.7:1 15.1 MHz ... 1.6:1 15.3 MHz ... 1.5:1 15.5 MHz ... 1.4:1 15.7 MHz ... 1.3:1 15.9 MHz ... 1.3:1 16.1 MHz ... 1.4:1 ... continuing through 30 MHz for a 13 to 30 MHz antenna. Note: On 10 meters my VSWR does not exceed 1.4:1 anywhere from 28.0 to 29.7 MHz. I don't believe a Yagi design is that broadbanded. The VSWR on my LP does not exceed 1.7:1 anyplace between 13.5 and 31 MHz. It varies slightly between 1.7:1 and 1.3:1 minimum. Gain is effectively constant between 13 and 30 MHz. However, it is slightly lower than a well designed 3 element Yagi. [~-0.5 dB] Efficiency, however, is slightly better than a trapped Yagi [no trap losses]. Physical size is larger than a trapped Yagi. F/B ratio on 14 MHz is lower than a Yagi but will match a yagi on 18 through 30 MHz. I chose a LP because I wanted full coverage of the HF spectrum from 13 to 30 MHz. [Including USAF MARS & 17 and 12 meters] A 5 band Yagi only covers 5 segments of that spectrum. If I were interested in one or two bands only, I would go to a full sized 4 or 5 element Yagi for for each band and get excellent gain, efficiency and F/B. [Assuming I had the $$$$] Article: 226058 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Message-ID: <44abd673$0$3107$4fafbaef@reader1.news.tin.it> From: ab Subject: Re: Help with NASA / Canaveral helicopter yagi antenna Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2006 17:10:43 +0200 References: <3atga2lanedo1jkc9vm4e2qlht71dce8bm@4ax.com> Tim Wescott wrote: > > I believe that a helicopter pilot's nose starts bleeding at 1000ft -- at > least that's what my fixed-wing pilot friends tell me. > I doubt it. I am not a pilot - I was in the Italian airborne, and heli pilots would take us as high as 6000ft for jumping. Our nose wasn't bleeding, and neither was the pilots'... Back to radio, I took a couple of times hand helds with me and at 3000 - 6000 ft. and you go a looooong way even with poor antennas... -- AB Article: 226059 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2006 12:15:37 -0400 From: Dave Subject: Re: Help with NASA / Canaveral helicopter yagi antenna References: <3atga2lanedo1jkc9vm4e2qlht71dce8bm@4ax.com> <44abd673$0$3107$4fafbaef@reader1.news.tin.it> Message-ID: <2OydnYPJs-00eDbZnZ2dnUVZ_oCdnZ2d@comcast.com> ab wrote: > Tim Wescott wrote: > SNIPPED > > Back to radio, I took a couple of times hand helds with me and at 3000 - > 6000 ft. and you go a looooong way even with poor antennas... > YEP! Well over 100 miles [>160 KM] radius Article: 226060 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: hikezilla@yahoo.com Subject: Fishing Pole Verticals Date: 5 Jul 2006 10:46:02 -0700 Message-ID: <1152121562.776620.105260@a14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> Gander Mountain is a nation wide outdoor sporting good store. They are currently selling a 20 foot collapsable Crappie pole that is perfect for playing with verticals. It's the Creekside Brand Model CST-20, it's a six section fiberglass collapsable pole that is being sold for $12.99 in central Indiana. It's a little bit more rigid than the SD20 (I have some of each). Heads up on a good buy! 73 de KB9BVN Article: 226061 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "R. Scott" Subject: Re: Help with NASA / Canaveral helicopter yagi antenna Message-ID: References: <3atga2lanedo1jkc9vm4e2qlht71dce8bm@4ax.com> <44abd673$0$3107$4fafbaef@reader1.news.tin.it> <2OydnYPJs-00eDbZnZ2dnUVZ_oCdnZ2d@comcast.com> Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2006 17:47:00 GMT "Dave" wrote in message news:2OydnYPJs-00eDbZnZ2dnUVZ_oCdnZ2d@comcast.com... > ab wrote: > >> Tim Wescott wrote: >> > SNIPPED >> >> Back to radio, I took a couple of times hand helds with me and at 3000 - >> 6000 ft. and you go a looooong way even with poor antennas... >> > > YEP! Well over 100 miles [>160 KM] radius I wonder why he doesn't just ask his FAA Certified A&E. Article: 226062 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Ron Walters Subject: Re: Optibeam & LP antennas References: Message-ID: Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2006 01:09:38 GMT Dave wrote: > I looked at their web site and did not see a 'Log Periodic'. > > Their antennas seem to be Yagi based. A L-P is a driven array, not > parasitic, and broad banded so that the VSWR never exceeds a max value, > typically 1.7:1, ANYWHERE in the spectrum from 14 to 30 MHz in the > bandwidth you mentioned. > > Do you have a model number? > > /s/ DD W1MCE > > Ron Walters wrote: > >> Would appreciate comments relative to the Optibeam Log Periodic >> 14-30MHz antennas, I am also considering the SteppIR antenna but I am >> concerned with the mechanical and electric potential problems with >> that antenna. >> Getting on in age and tower climbing is s chore for me. Any >> suggestions or comments? >> >> Ron W4LDE > > Dave, Thanks for your comments, the Optibeam antenna model I was looking at is the OB9-5 broadband antenna. The spec's seem good, low wind load and looks like it would survive in the sunny south were we do get those darn Hurricanes. I live in Central Floria. My TA-33 has gone through 4 storms with some very gusts of over 100 MPH and still preforms without a change from the day I put it up back in 1988, almost 18 years, thats service. The other antennas I am looking at is the Summer XP504-6 LP that is rated 13-54 MHz and the Cushcraft ASL2010. The gain figures look higher than the Optibeam but I guess that its all relative. Theres no doubt that the SteppIR 3- element is a great beam, but from what I have read over the past few years since it first hit the market is that there has been problems, both mechanical and electrical. That fact frightens me, here I live in the lighting capital of the world and also from time to time need to adjust to Hurricanes, if I didn't love golf also I probably live future up north in SC or NC but thats not the issue. In a few years my days climbing towers will get very difficult and probable not to smart. After looking at the choices one has in a multi-band antenna for 20-6 meters I have come to realize that the LP maybe my alternative for a long term survivable antenna. You were right after looking at the Optibeam it is not a LP like the Summer or Cushcraft. What bothers me about the current LP offering is I do not see many opinions or comments relative to this type of antenna, guess everyone likes the new SteppIR and before its over I may re-think my choices. Again thanks for the comment 73 - Ron W4LDE Article: 226063 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "VE2CJW" Subject: I really ned help here. Message-ID: Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2006 22:23:17 -0400 Ok you antenna gurus, I have a funny problem. Whenever I try to reach a certain repeater on 2 meters, (146.700-), I can't do it. The repeater is about 25 miles from here. I have an outside antenna with 6 db of gain similar to a Diamond, a new coax and 50 watts of power. The base of the antenna is about 15 feet fron the ground and the repeater doesn't need a tone. What's funny is that I can reach repeaters that are a lot farther than this one but not on the the same bearing. A friend of mine who lives about 3 miles from here has no problem whatsoever in reaching the same repeater. Some hams who live farther from the repeater than me can use it with no problem. The only difference I can spot is that there are a few houses around mine that are 4 stories high while mine is a bungalow. Could this be the reason or am I missing something here? Thanks for any help. VE2CJW, Mike. Article: 226064 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Ben Jackson Subject: Re: I really ned help here. References: Message-ID: Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2006 22:19:38 -0500 On 2006-07-06, VE2CJW wrote: > Ok you antenna gurus, I have a funny problem. Whenever I try to reach a > certain repeater on 2 meters, (146.700-), I can't do it. The repeater is > about 25 miles from here. Have you gone to look at the repeater? Maybe the terrain creates a null in your direction. -- Ben Jackson AD7GD http://www.ben.com/ Article: 226065 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: I really ned help here. References: Message-ID: Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2006 03:26:19 GMT VE2CJW wrote: > Ok you antenna gurus, I have a funny problem. Whenever I try to reach a > certain repeater on 2 meters, (146.700-), I can't do it. The repeater is > about 25 miles from here. If you were where your antenna is, could you see the repeater antenna through a telescope on a clear day? If not, what is obstructing your vision? -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp Article: 226066 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "VE2CJW" References: Subject: Re: I really ned help here. Message-ID: Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2006 23:58:03 -0400 >From the antenna, I can't see the repeater because of a couple of condos that are much higher than my house. That's probably the problem because I can reach a few repeaters about 4 times farther but not in the same direction. I wonder how high my antenna should be to solve my problem. I also wonder if more power, say 150 watts would change anything. I am open to suggestions. VE2CJW. "Cecil Moore" a écrit dans le message de news: vp%qg.60344$Lm5.29598@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com... > VE2CJW wrote: >> Ok you antenna gurus, I have a funny problem. Whenever I try to reach a >> certain repeater on 2 meters, (146.700-), I can't do it. The repeater is >> about 25 miles from here. > > If you were where your antenna is, could you see the > repeater antenna through a telescope on a clear day? > If not, what is obstructing your vision? > -- > 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp Article: 226067 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Owen Duffy Subject: Re: I really ned help here. Message-ID: <6m3pa215bvjbdf7uhn41b914vr15gjbqf5@4ax.com> References: Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2006 04:23:59 GMT On Wed, 5 Jul 2006 22:23:17 -0400, "VE2CJW" wrote: >Ok you antenna gurus, I have a funny problem. Whenever I try to reach a >certain repeater on 2 meters, (146.700-), I can't do it. The repeater is >about 25 miles from here. I have an outside antenna with 6 db of gain >similar to a Diamond, a new coax and 50 watts of power. The base of the >antenna is about 15 feet fron the ground and the repeater doesn't need a >tone. What's funny is that I can reach repeaters that are a lot farther than >this one but not on the the same bearing. A friend of mine who lives about 3 >miles from here has no problem whatsoever in reaching the same repeater. >Some hams who live farther from the repeater than me can use it with no >problem. The only difference I can spot is that there are a few houses >around mine that are 4 stories high while mine is a bungalow. Could this be >the reason or am I missing something here? Thanks for any help. > >VE2CJW, Mike. > Mike, in all of this, did you actually say whether you can hear the repeater (when others key it up)? Owen -- Article: 226068 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2006 15:20:13 +1000 From: Zen Subject: Re: Optibeam References: Message-ID: <44ac9d91_1@news.iprimus.com.au> Ron Walters wrote: > Would appreciate comments relative to the Optibeam Log Periodic 14-30MHz > antennas, I am also considering the SteppIR antenna but I am concerned > with the mechanical and electric potential problems with that antenna. > Getting on in age and tower climbing is s chore for me. Any suggestions > or comments? > > Ron W4LDE The Only problem with the Optibeam is that their gain figures are honest! I think if you look at Cebiks web page a at his Log periodic models you also see how good LPDA's can be. What makes both the LPDA and the Optibeam look bad is the exagerated gain claims from old antennas designs. We see LPDA's get tarred with this brush daily, yet we know any decent lpda will just about perform as well as any mutiband tribander. Whats amusing is that you see people time and time say that a 5 element monoband will beat a 32 foot lpda by several S units. Yet we know that a decent LPDA of this boom length will have a gain of about 8dbi versus a monoband antennas gain of 10dbi! So you tell me where even 1 s units gain comes from? What does not help the logs case is the dishonest manufacturers who blow up their gain figures. People like Tennadyne, who seem to mix up dbi with DBd. If it was my money and i wanted a small multiband beam antenna i would buy the Optibeam, because 2 or 3 dbi does not mount to much on HF. I would rather go for all band coverage with reliability versus something like a Steppir which still is unproven. Optibeam have a nice model that covers from 40 through to 10 even 30 meters. Now if you looked at the same size log needed to achieve that with similar gain you see what a good design it is for ham radio. I dont buy all the crap spun by Optibeams owner about LPDA;s and harmonics etc. Harmonic suppression is a transmitter problem should never be the antennas problem. If you have a receiver that cant handle a log because of 2nd order IMD issues you have a crap receiver. Whats also interesting is that if you model a stack of LPDAs like N08D has which is six logs on a 200 ft tower you see the gain is just about equivalent to a monoband stack, and this is from 13 to 30 mhz. There is some guy in W1 land who runs 2 big logs on a 100ft tower, if you heard his signal from a distance you would be impressed. But dont worry too much about gain in any decent multiband beams like the steppir and the optibeam. I beat stations with a 4 element steppir's antennas with a high double extended zepp antenna. I would rather have a low gain LPDA up at a 100 ft than a Steppir down on a 30ft pole. In fact a lazy H at a decent height would perform just as well as most small tribanders or a small 2 element cubical quad. You dont have to take mine or anyones word for it, just look at the reliable models on Cebiks web page. You soon see that most of the gain claims by optibeam. Force 12 is another company that has decent honest figures. Zenki Article: 226069 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Message-ID: <44ACA079.ED7FBD03@nunzio.net> From: nunzio Subject: Re: I really ned help here. References: Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2006 05:32:43 GMT hi mike, perhaps the repeater antenna has a null towards your qth or the repeater has a non standard input frequency. can you tell us the callsign for the repeater ? sometimes this will be by design so one repeater will not key up another on the same split if band is open in the same general direction. 73 nunzio Article: 226070 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: dplatt@radagast.org (Dave Platt) Subject: Re: I really ned help here. Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2006 05:34:27 -0000 Message-ID: <12ap87334j8b07b@corp.supernews.com> References: In article , VE2CJW wrote: >From the antenna, I can't see the repeater because of a couple of condos >that are much higher than my house. That's probably the problem because I >can reach a few repeaters about 4 times farther but not in the same >direction. I wonder how high my antenna should be to solve my problem. I >also wonder if more power, say 150 watts would change anything. I am open to >suggestions. You may be running into a multipath-nulling problem. I had a similar situation here at my house a few months ago. One of the local repeaters is located about 5 miles away, with its antenna on top of a 7-story hospital building. My antenna is a copper-pipe J-pole, about 20' off of the ground (8' above a 12' roof). There is an industrial/office building about 50' high, smack-dab between me and the repeater. It's located around 100' from my antenna. I found myself unable to open the repeater and get acceptable quieting even with 50 watts of power. Another local repeater (further away) gives me an S9+10 reading or better with only 5 watts. I wandered around on my roof with an HT and a rubbber duck, while another local ham transmitted through the repeater. I found that there were places in which my HT received a perfectly good signal from the repeater, and others where it dropped down pretty far into the noise. What I concluded was that my signal path to the repeater was really messy. There was no direct line of sight, but multiple indirect paths... knife-edge diffraction from the top of the office building, with reflections off of numerous nearby trees and houses. By chance, I had placed my J-pole in a spot where the various indirect-signal paths summed up to a deep null on the repeater input frequency. When I transmitted, the power ended up going in many directions, but none ended up at the repeater :-( I moved the antenna mast a few feet along the house wall and tried again... and opened the repeater with acceptable quieting with only 10 watts. Problem solved. So, I'd say that the brute-force way for you to solve your problem is to raise your antenna until it clears the roofline of the condos and has a direct line-of-sight to the repeater. If you do that, you can probably open that repeater acceptably with only 5 - 10 watts even using an omnidirectional vertical antenna - less if you aim a gain antenna towards the repeater. The subtle way, not requiring a huge mast, is for you to experiment with moving the antenna around, both from side to side and in the direction towards which it's pointing. You may find that moving it places it in a spot where the reflections and diffractions work in your favor (waveform reinforcement) rather than against you (cancellation). You may also find that pointing it _away_ from the repeater, towards some tall building or hill which is located in the line of site of the repeater, will give you an acceptable (albeit indirect) path. You can do some of this testing by simply listening to the repeater while other people are using it, but the fine-tuning will probably requiring transmitting - the cancellation and reinforcement path "sweet spots" can be different in the two directions, due to the different wavelengths of the repeater input and output signals. Article: 226071 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "n3ox.dan@gmail.com" Subject: Voltage feeding a VHF yagi Date: 5 Jul 2006 22:37:10 -0700 Message-ID: <1152164230.300210.322520@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com> Anyone ever get around the VHF FM vertical yagi feedline routing problem by voltage feeding the bottom of the driven element with a stub like a J-pole? A quick EZNEC run seems to indicate that it's not a bad idea. So it seems like it might work OK... but I wonder if anyone has actually done it. Would you expect a coaxial stub to work better than a parallel wire stub in terms of preserving the pattern of the yagi? Any commercial products doing this? 73 Dan N3OX www.n3ox.net Article: 226072 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: dplatt@radagast.org (Dave Platt) Subject: Re: Voltage feeding a VHF yagi Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2006 05:53:54 -0000 Message-ID: <12ap9bilitvoj79@corp.supernews.com> References: <1152164230.300210.322520@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com> In article <1152164230.300210.322520@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com>, n3ox.dan@gmail.com wrote: >Anyone ever get around the VHF FM vertical yagi feedline routing >problem by voltage feeding the bottom of the driven element with a stub >like a J-pole? A quick EZNEC run seems to indicate that it's not a bad >idea. I do recall seeing one design for a "Jagi" - a three-element vertical beam in which all three elements were of the copper-pipe J-pole style of construction. It was reported to work pretty well. I'm afraid I no longer have a reference to the design... sorry. >So it seems like it might work OK... but I wonder if anyone has >actually done it. Would you expect a coaxial stub to work better than >a parallel wire stub in terms of preserving the pattern of the yagi? My guess is that either could work. For the parallel-wire/pipe stub, it might be best to use the time-honored trick of making a half-wave coaxial balun, attaching it a bit higher than you'd do for a direct coax attachment, and insulate the bottom of the stub from its mast. Adding a ferrite or coiled-coax choke to the feedline might also be a good idea. -- Dave Platt AE6EO Hosting the Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads! Article: 226073 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: nm5k@wt.net Subject: Re: Voltage feeding a VHF yagi Date: 5 Jul 2006 23:10:39 -0700 Message-ID: <1152166238.939071.294820@a14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> References: <1152164230.300210.322520@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com> n3ox.dan@gmail.com wrote: > Anyone ever get around the VHF FM vertical yagi feedline routing > problem by voltage feeding the bottom of the driven element with a stub > like a J-pole? A quick EZNEC run seems to indicate that it's not a bad > idea. > > So it seems like it might work OK... but I wonder if anyone has > actually done it. Would you expect a coaxial stub to work better than > a parallel wire stub in terms of preserving the pattern of the yagi? > > Any commercial products doing this? > > 73 > Dan > N3OX > www.n3ox.net I guess I'm missing it, but what problem is there running the feedline to the normal center fed yagi? No matter if against a mast, or mounted on a mast with the center of the boom attached to the mast, I don't see a problem. I do it all the time. No matter what polarization, I tape the coax to the mast, and then tape it to the boom to the feedpoint. I'd much rather run the yagi in the normal manner. Trying to voltage feed one sounds like a common mode nightmare , unless drastic precautions were taken. And I probably don't have to mention how radiation from a feedline can skew a antenna pattern real nicely... :( MK Article: 226074 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Jeff" Subject: Re: Voltage feeding a VHF yagi Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2006 08:01:19 +0100 Message-ID: References: <1152164230.300210.322520@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com> > Anyone ever get around the VHF FM vertical yagi feedline routing > problem by voltage feeding the bottom of the driven element with a stub > like a J-pole? A quick EZNEC run seems to indicate that it's not a bad > idea. Have you actually tried simulating the coax or a pole going through the yagi? You might be surprised at the results. The effects are not as bad as you might at first think. You should be able to optimize the positioning of the coax. For example, my simulation of an 8 ele vertically polarized yagi shows less than half a dB loss in gain with a 2" dia pole through the middle of it, if carefully positioned. It is possible to reduce the loss even further but it would mean putting the pole in positions that you would not really want to. There ate some effects on the f/b and side lobes but nothing too detrimental. 73 Jeff Article: 226075 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Jeff" Subject: Re: Voltage feeding a VHF yagi Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2006 08:08:01 +0100 Message-ID: References: <1152164230.300210.322520@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com> <1152166238.939071.294820@a14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> > > I guess I'm missing it, but what problem is there > running the feedline to the normal center fed yagi? > No matter if against a mast, or mounted on a mast > with the center of the boom attached to the mast, I > don't see a problem. I do it all the time. > No matter what polarization, I tape the coax to > the mast, and then tape it to the boom to the feedpoint. > I'd much rather run the yagi in the normal manner. This is a problem that is particular to vertically polarized yagis that are mounted with a pole going between the elements. The pole has to come up parallel to the elements to the boom. Some people overcome this by using non-conductive pole, BUT what do you do with the feeder, if you tape it to the pole you might just as well have used a metal pole!!! However, as I said in my previous post, my simulations seem to show that with careful positioning the effects can to quite small 73 Jeff Article: 226076 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: w8ji@akorn.net Subject: Re: Voltage feeding a VHF yagi Date: 6 Jul 2006 01:00:59 -0700 Message-ID: <1152172859.226674.118720@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com> References: <1152164230.300210.322520@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com> n3ox.dan@gmail.com wrote: > Anyone ever get around the VHF FM vertical yagi feedline routing > problem by voltage feeding the bottom of the driven element with a stub > like a J-pole? A quick EZNEC run seems to indicate that it's not a bad > idea. > > So it seems like it might work OK... but I wonder if anyone has > actually done it. Would you expect a coaxial stub to work better than > a parallel wire stub in terms of preserving the pattern of the yagi? Why would you want to take a directional antenna and feed it with one of the poorest feed systems possible? J poles and Zepps have terrible problems with common mode feeder current because the feedline has an UNbalanced antenna element fed by a BALanced stub that is fed by an UNbalanced coaxial line. If you are worried about getting the feedline down an insulated mast, offset the yagi out 5 feet or so on a cross arm or decouple the feeder with a self- resonant choke. You could also use a sleeve or skirt decoupled dipole. Any of these would be at least as good as an end-feed, and more likely and easier to make much better. 73 Tom Article: 226077 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: w8ji@akorn.net Subject: Re: Voltage feeding a VHF yagi Date: 6 Jul 2006 01:02:55 -0700 Message-ID: <1152172975.264405.135550@s26g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> References: <1152164230.300210.322520@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com> I forgot to say you could offset the coax with a crossarm out from an insulated mast, not offset the Yagi. With a metal mast you would offset the Yagi. Article: 226078 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: w8ji@akorn.net Subject: Re: I really ned help here. Date: 6 Jul 2006 01:05:35 -0700 Message-ID: <1152173135.362208.73310@b68g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> References: It could be at the repeater, or it could be at your end. Can you HEAR the repeater? If so, how well? Article: 226079 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Message-ID: <9D4I8JBGANrEFAUG@ifwtech.co.uk> Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2006 09:55:34 +0100 From: Ian White GM3SEK Subject: Re: Voltage feeding a VHF yagi References: <1152164230.300210.322520@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com> Jeff wrote: > >This is a problem that is particular to vertically polarized yagis that are >mounted with a pole going between the elements. The pole has to come up >parallel to the elements to the boom. Some people overcome this by using >non-conductive pole, BUT what do you do with the feeder, if you tape it to >the pole you might just as well have used a metal pole!!! > >However, as I said in my previous post, my simulations seem to show that >with careful positioning the effects can to quite small This problem has been investigated very carefully by moonbouncers who want to use selectable horizontal/vertical polarization. The best solution from the electrical viewpoint is to mount the yagi on a fibreglass mast and route the feedlines out the rear, but this is not mechanically practical for very large steerable arrays. Simulations have found that metal masts in the plane of the elements can be used, and feedlines can follow the same route, if - BUT ONLY IF - the yagi is suitable and it's done at the right place along the boom. Under these conditions, the penalty (in terms of forward gain) can be less than 1dB. However, only certain yagi designs will be suitable, because the support point must also be close to the mechanical centre of gravity. These electrical and mechanical requirements may conflict, so I strongly agree with Jeff that the effect of the mast and feedline will always need to be simulated and computer-optimized. There is no way to guess at this one. Coming back to the original question about a J-pole feed for a vertically polarized yagi, this technique was used in the 1950s-60s by the British company J-Beam for TV antennas around 50MHz. The driven elements that I remember were not actually J-shaped, but used a coaxial decoupling sleeve that also served as a mast. The bottom end of the sleeve was typically clamped to a chimney. It worked... but in those days, nobody really understood how well or poorly it worked. -- 73 from Ian GM3SEK 'In Practice' columnist for RadCom (RSGB) http://www.ifwtech.co.uk/g3sek Article: 226080 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: larsonmedia@gmail.com Subject: Re: Affordable way for 1MHz - 4MHz capture and analysis?? Date: 6 Jul 2006 02:59:48 -0700 Message-ID: <1152179988.041811.70760@a14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> References: <1151826130.882886.241330@j8g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> Bob Bob, you are outstanding! The Winradio is actually a capable and affordable solution. From the specs, it looks like it will fit the bill, and the fact that they have a Linux version is great. Take care. -Lars Bob Bob wrote: > This looks like an interesting project! Not quite what I was thinking in > my original answer. I think your requirement is a lot simpler and cheaper. > > A yes no indicator for RF between 570Hz and 4Mhz should be relatively > easy, especially if it is a large signal in comparison to the ambient > level. You could probably do it with a band pass filter network, a few > transistors and some kind of display device (eg a LED). Some sensitivity > calibratation over the freq range will need doing and maybe a subsequent > adjustment to the BPF. > > Determining if it is encoded depends on how it is encoded. If it creates > pulses of a known PRF then a simple AM receiver to detect the envelope, > followed by whatever ever band pass at the PRF and a subsequent display > device. I cant comment on this further without knowing how you modulate. > > Both circuits could be mounted in a box with an "RF detected" and > "Modulated signal detected" LED along with a resetable timer. You are > talking maybe $30 worth of parts! > > Note that you will need to test its susceptability to other RF in the > area so it doesnt give false readings. > > One assumes you want to log the above events? For that a PC can be used > for with a simple low rate data acquisition module or even via the > parallel port pins. As horrible as it sounds using an old clunker and a > DOS version with debug will allow you to poll the printer port and print > a report on completion. You can also do it with the normal tools in a > current Linux versions. I think software would need to be written for a > Windows environment. Probably already exists as GPL. Shd be pretty > simple to write though if not. > > The above assumes you dont need to measure the actual exposure level.. > > You might be interested to know that back in the early 1980's I was > involved in medical ultrasound. Most of our products were for imaging > and doppler. We were however developing a higher energy device for > focussed heating on cancerous etc areas. The initial tests were done > with a beefed up transducer (about 50mm dia a 5mm thick) in a water bath > and excited with an old Yaesu FT101B transceiver on about 3.6MHz! It was > impressive to watch it boiling the surface of the water. It looked like > a 360 degree waterfall.. > > If you want to go down the separate radio and PC device have a look at > the Winradio (or similar) boxes. They use a PC as control and display > for an external box with an RS232 and antenna port on it. Dont know > about the software side of this though. > > Cheers Bob VK2YQA > > lars121@gmail.com wrote: > > > > Specifically, the application is one which uses a HAM radio transciever > > utilizing approx 20W-100W power and a Class E transmitter to drive > > data signals and power from an external coil to a series of smaller > > receiver coils which are implanted in biological tissue for biomedical > > application. I have to police/enforce the research personnel to ensure > > limits regarding std practices are not exceeded in regards to duration > > and length of RF exposure fothe patient. Of course I need to do this > > independently, because in this situation relying on their "good word" > > or verbal agreement isn't sufficient. I have to be able to be able to > > 1.) determine if there is a 570Hz to 4MHz signal present, and 2.) > > determine if it is encoded or modulated to carry the power and data > > signals. Not up my alley exactly, but I need to get it done. If there > > is an expansion card or USB interface device for PC, that would be > > preferable to aquiring an entire HAM rig. Any help appreciated. - Lars > > Article: 226081 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "VE2CJW" References: <1152173135.362208.73310@b68g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: I really ned help here. Message-ID: <3b9rg.15863$nd1.21745@wagner.videotron.net> Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2006 10:33:40 -0400 I can hear the repeater very well, in fact, it comes in at S9+ all the time. I noticed that my SWR is around 2.5, I wonder what can cause this. Mike. a écrit dans le message de news: 1152173135.362208.73310@b68g2000cwa.googlegroups.com... > It could be at the repeater, or it could be at your end. > > Can you HEAR the repeater? If so, how well? > Article: 226082 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Howard W3CQH" References: <1152173135.362208.73310@b68g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <3b9rg.15863$nd1.21745@wagner.videotron.net> Subject: Re: I really ned help here. Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2006 10:47:12 -0400 Message-ID: <8oednW7LFtbtvzDZnZ2dnUVZ_q-dnZ2d@adelphia.com> Try using another VERTICAL POLARIZED antenna and mount it a few feet from the first! "VE2CJW" wrote in message news:3b9rg.15863$nd1.21745@wagner.videotron.net... >I can hear the repeater very well, in fact, it comes in at S9+ all the >time. I noticed that my SWR is around 2.5, I wonder what can cause this. > > Mike. > > a écrit dans le message de news: > 1152173135.362208.73310@b68g2000cwa.googlegroups.com... >> It could be at the repeater, or it could be at your end. >> >> Can you HEAR the repeater? If so, how well? >> > > Article: 226083 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Bob Bob Subject: Re: Voltage feeding a VHF yagi References: <1152164230.300210.322520@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com> Message-ID: <6cjvn3-s7p.ln1@p400bob.personal.cox.net> Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2006 09:29:58 -0500 I havent but Mr Cebik talks about it on his website; http://www.cebik.com/vhf/jp4.html Cheers Bob VK2YQA n3ox.dan@gmail.com wrote: > > Anyone ever get around the VHF FM vertical yagi feedline routing > problem by voltage feeding the bottom of the driven element with a stub > like a J-pole? A quick EZNEC run seems to indicate that it's not a bad > idea. Article: 226084 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2006 09:45:51 -0700 From: Tim Wescott Subject: Re: I really ned help here. References: Message-ID: VE2CJW wrote: (top posting fixed) > "Cecil Moore" a écrit dans le message de news: > vp%qg.60344$Lm5.29598@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com... > >>VE2CJW wrote: >> >>>Ok you antenna gurus, I have a funny problem. Whenever I try to reach a >>>certain repeater on 2 meters, (146.700-), I can't do it. The repeater is >>>about 25 miles from here. >> >>If you were where your antenna is, could you see the >>repeater antenna through a telescope on a clear day? >>If not, what is obstructing your vision? >>-- >>73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp > > From the antenna, I can't see the repeater because of a couple of > condos that are much higher than my house. That's probably the > problem because I can reach a few repeaters about 4 times farther but > not in the same direction. I wonder how high my antenna should be to > solve my problem. I also wonder if more power, say 150 watts would > change anything. I am open to suggestions. > VE2CJW. > Can the repeater reach _you_? If not, no amount of power will help you receive it. If you're almost making it then yes, more power may make a difference. You're only talking about a 3dB increase from 50W to 150W, though, I'd expect that if it helps at all it'll just get you to the stage where you're cutting in and out instead of not hitting the thing at all. How high is the terrain where you live? I'd expect 2 meters to get through (or around) a condo OK, but a hill between you and there would certainly kill the signal. If the condos weren't there would you be able to see the repeater? -- Tim Wescott Wescott Design Services http://www.wescottdesign.com Posting from Google? See http://cfaj.freeshell.org/google/ "Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" came out in April. See details at http://www.wescottdesign.com/actfes/actfes.html Article: 226085 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: John Ferrell Subject: Re: I really ned help here. Message-ID: <02jqa2dom8r6rp1funb5duishrq1ap2t50@4ax.com> References: <1152173135.362208.73310@b68g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <3b9rg.15863$nd1.21745@wagner.videotron.net> Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2006 17:49:25 GMT Verify that you are really dialed into the proper frequency. It is very easy to select the wrong offset or plus/minus 5khz. The high swr is likely causing the transmitter to "safety" itself by reducing power. Verify that this coax is in fact connected and that it is not shorted somewhere. It sounds a lot like what happens when I plug the wrong coax into my transmitter! Coax problems usually happen at the connectors. John, W8CCW On Thu, 6 Jul 2006 10:33:40 -0400, "VE2CJW" wrote: >I can hear the repeater very well, in fact, it comes in at S9+ all the time. >I noticed that my SWR is around 2.5, I wonder what can cause this. > >Mike. > > a écrit dans le message de news: >1152173135.362208.73310@b68g2000cwa.googlegroups.com... >> It could be at the repeater, or it could be at your end. >> >> Can you HEAR the repeater? If so, how well? >> > John Ferrell W8CCW Article: 226086 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Personne Subject: Re: I really ned help here. Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2006 20:14:43 +0100 Message-ID: References: On Thu, 06 Jul 2006 09:45:51 -0700, Tim Wescott wrote: >VE2CJW wrote: >(top posting fixed) >> "Cecil Moore" a écrit dans le message de news: >> vp%qg.60344$Lm5.29598@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com... >> >>>VE2CJW wrote: >>> >>>>Ok you antenna gurus, I have a funny problem. Whenever I try to reach a >>>>certain repeater on 2 meters, (146.700-), I can't do it. The repeater is >>>>about 25 miles from here. >>> >>>If you were where your antenna is, could you see the >>>repeater antenna through a telescope on a clear day? >>>If not, what is obstructing your vision? >>>-- >>>73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp >> > > From the antenna, I can't see the repeater because of a couple of > > condos that are much higher than my house. That's probably the > > problem because I can reach a few repeaters about 4 times farther but > > not in the same direction. I wonder how high my antenna should be to > > solve my problem. I also wonder if more power, say 150 watts would > > change anything. I am open to suggestions. > > VE2CJW. > > >Can the repeater reach _you_? If not, no amount of power will help you >receive it. If you're almost making it then yes, more power may make a >difference. You're only talking about a 3dB increase from 50W to 150W, I think you mean a ~5dB increase, Tim (pedant mode off) but with an FM repeater a few dB can make a huge difference. Pete Article: 226087 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: w8ji@akorn.net Subject: Re: Voltage feeding a VHF yagi Date: 6 Jul 2006 13:46:49 -0700 Message-ID: <1152218809.770077.3670@s26g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> References: <1152164230.300210.322520@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com> Bob Bob wrote: > I havent but Mr Cebik talks about it on his website; > > http://www.cebik.com/vhf/jp4.html > > Cheers Bob VK2YQA > > n3ox.dan@gmail.com wrote: > > > > Anyone ever get around the VHF FM vertical yagi feedline routing > > problem by voltage feeding the bottom of the driven element with a stub > > like a J-pole? A quick EZNEC run seems to indicate that it's not a bad > > idea. The problem with many models is people just stick a source at the feedpoint and assume it tells them something about how the antenna works in the real world. A model has a PERFECT source that is like using a perfect balun and a transparent feedline. I can build a very feedline critical antenna with horrible balance issues, one that will never work in the real world, and make it behave quite well in the model. I would never use a J-pole feed on a Yagi, except perhaps in a model. 73 Tom Article: 226088 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Ralph Mowery" References: <1152173135.362208.73310@b68g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <3b9rg.15863$nd1.21745@wagner.videotron.net> Subject: Re: I really ned help here. Message-ID: Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2006 20:50:52 GMT "VE2CJW" wrote in message news:3b9rg.15863$nd1.21745@wagner.videotron.net... >I can hear the repeater very well, in fact, it comes in at S9+ all the >time. I noticed that my SWR is around 2.5, I wonder what can cause this. > > Mike. > If the repeater is S9+ on your receiver, unless the repeater is runing very high power (300 watts +) you should be able to hit it with a few watts. Sounds as if you need to take your rig to another place and see if you can hit the repeater at all. Maybe the repeater needs a subaudio tone to activate it and you do not have it programmed in ? You did not say what kind or how much coax you have between the rig and the antenna. A SWR of 2.5 seems way too much. If you had about 100 feet (30 meters) of rg-8 and a very bad antenna, the swr would not be too much higher. Article: 226089 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Newman" Subject: Horizontal HF Loop Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2006 15:58:41 -0500 Message-ID: Anyone here tried an HF horizonal loop built around residence? (either attached under eaves or to trees very close by)... Did it work? Affects of antenna on residence electronics and vice versa? (100 watt TX) Would plan to use on several bands w/antenna tuner & open wire feed. Tnx for comments... Article: 226090 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "JM" References: <2mkog.58280$9c6.45638@dukeread11> <5rc9a2dgkck8vkj3ehb2cf6vrc5vu2t778@4ax.com> Subject: Re: Anyone here think this crap isnt a scam? Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2006 22:32:46 +0100 Message-ID: <44ad7442$0$18576$88260bb3@free.teranews.com> "Walt Davidson" wrote in message news:5rc9a2dgkck8vkj3ehb2cf6vrc5vu2t778@4ax.com... > On Fri, 30 Jun 2006 03:27:21 GMT, "Backfire Bob" > wrote: > >>WOW Walt! you sure showed me..you fat old over inflated windbag.... >>Go back to printing your own DX QSL cards for your wall..you fake. > > The rank CBer exposes himself at every turn. > > Of course, it was always inevitable that this would be the result of > letting these people into ham radio. > :-( > > 73 de G3NYY > > -- > Walt Davidson Email: g3nyy @despammed.com What did you say about the GOOD OLD DAYS Walt. de Johnny G3LIV -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com Article: 226091 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "n3ox.dan@gmail.com" Subject: Re: Voltage feeding a VHF yagi Date: 6 Jul 2006 14:46:18 -0700 Message-ID: <1152222378.456155.303810@j8g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> References: <1152164230.300210.322520@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com> Thanks for the responses. Tom, I didn't know that the feedline decoupling issues with J-poles were so bad. I'd be interested in more information about why it's such an issue. Would a sleeve stub work better than an open wire stub? It's certainly stupid to make the feedline MORE of an issue. I like the sleeve/skirt decoupled dipole idea. I hadn't thought about routing the feedline out on a sidearm. I was thinking of doing that with the antenna, but with a large yagi it would be a problem. Putting the feedline out a few feet and then dropping it down to a lower point on the mast could certainly work. As far as putting the feedline in the plane of the elements, understood on the modeling and placement issues. If one were to do this, would it help to have ferrite beads all along the coax from the feedpoint to some distance down the mast? Of course good feedline decoupling is important for any directional array, but I imagine that a wire with a string of ferrite beads on it is pretty much invisible to RF... is this right? Maybe a long bead balun dropping away in between elements would be a good way to go with no sidearms? Thanks for the responses; I'd be interested in further ones. 73 Dan Article: 226092 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Alan WA4SCA Subject: Re: Horizontal HF Loop Message-ID: <5p0ra2pnrqbmncqb65g76024hciafkgvhu@4ax.com> References: Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2006 21:51:01 GMT Newman, I did that at a condo which I was renting. With a simple antenna tuner, using a choke balun, it loaded up fine, and more importantly got out well enough to work plenty of people, including some DX. I got some rf into an answering machine, as well as my TV. Both of those were the result of the phone line and the OTA TV antenna having to pass near the loop. No problem with the neighbors. Such an installation depends on a host of factors specific to the QTH, as well as basic antenna factors. Things like metal siding, gutters, especially with poor joins between sections, wiring and copper plumbing in the wall, etc, will all have effects on the questions you asked. Best advice is to give it a try. Not much cost, and you will probably get good results. Alan WA4SCA -- Alan WA4SCA Article: 226093 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Howard W3CQH" References: <5p0ra2pnrqbmncqb65g76024hciafkgvhu@4ax.com> Subject: Re: Horizontal HF Loop Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2006 18:09:23 -0400 Message-ID: I am currently using a HF loop = 180 feet is laying on my roof and the remaining 360 feet is in the attic, I drive it with a 706 @ 100w and a MFJ tuner, and RG8x coax to a center feed point - works very good from 160m to 6m and becomes a rhombic of sorts from 220 MHz to 440 Mhz. 73's "Alan WA4SCA" wrote in message news:5p0ra2pnrqbmncqb65g76024hciafkgvhu@4ax.com... > Newman, > > I did that at a condo which I was renting. With a simple antenna > tuner, using a choke balun, it loaded up fine, and more importantly > got out well enough to work plenty of people, including some DX. > > I got some rf into an answering machine, as well as my TV. Both of > those were the result of the phone line and the OTA TV antenna having > to pass near the loop. No problem with the neighbors. > > Such an installation depends on a host of factors specific to the QTH, > as well as basic antenna factors. Things like metal siding, gutters, > especially with poor joins between sections, wiring and copper > plumbing in the wall, etc, will all have effects on the questions you > asked. Best advice is to give it a try. Not much cost, and you will > probably get good results. > > Alan > WA4SCA > > > > -- > Alan > WA4SCA Article: 226094 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "M.M." Subject: Re: Horizontal HF Loop References: Message-ID: Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2006 17:00:57 -0700 Newman wrote: > Anyone here tried an HF horizonal loop built around residence? (either > attached under eaves or to trees very close by)... > Did it work? ... I had an 80M loop up for a while. Put a mast on each end of the house & used some trees in the back yard. It was kind of a lop-sided pentagon and up about 25' or so. I fed it 100W with ladder line & a Johnson Matchbox. I was very happy with it. It was a bit of a cloud-warmer on 80 but did pretty well on the upper bands. I regularly used it on 20M for a sked with a buddy in Indiana (from Arizona). A storm blew down a couple of the trees or I'd probably still have it. I don't recall any RFI in my house altho my neighbor had a problem with one of his el-cheapo phones. If you have the supports, go for it...it's only a couple hundred feet of wire and you might be surprised how well it works... Article: 226095 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "carkenord@juno.com" Subject: AM-FM broadcast radio/antenna in truck? Date: 6 Jul 2006 17:15:31 -0700 Message-ID: <1152231331.422720.307440@s16g2000cws.googlegroups.com> I have an external vertical antenna on my 2001 Ford F-250 pickup. It's OEM, for the AM-FM broadcast radio in the cab of the truck. This is a metal antenna, tapered from base to tip. This antenna is about 32 inches long, and sticks straight up in the air. It appears to have something spirally wrapped on the exterior of it, helically wound, with about 1 turn per inch of antenna length. Does this antenna serve both AM and FM? I can't tell for sure, but it looks as though there is coax running from the radio to the base of the antenna. No markings on the coax that I can discern, but it hard to see up under the dash, with a flashlight! What would be a probable ohmic value for this coax, if indeed that black cable IS coax!? Would it most likely be approx. 50 ohm........or 75 ohm........or what? What is the likely (or "common") configuration of the above antenna? Would I call it a =BC wave vertical for the FM freqs? As you can tell.......I don't know much about how an AM-FM auto radio and antenna are designed. Any chance that the AM part of the radio uses a ferrite rod antenna, and that the external, visible antenna is FM only? This radio is a VERY good receiver, compared to 3 other AM-FM receivers that I have.....Sony, GE, and a Grundig. It "pulls in" weak stations in an impressive manner. Please, someone fill me in a bit here, or direct me to a good website. I _HAVE_ GOOGLED around, but found mostly nothing pertinent to my questions. Thank you so much........ Lee Carkenord Article: 226096 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "amdx" Subject: --W8ji-- Faraday shield Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2006 19:29:02 -0500 Message-ID: <4e88d$44adaacc$45011502$360@KNOLOGY.NET> Hi Tom, I'm winding some Flag antenna transformers and measuring capacitance between pri. and sec. A one point somewhere you said ; " The proper grounding point for a Faraday shielded primary is opposite the exit point of the primary winding, or on the secondary winding's exit side of the transformer. Most Faraday shields described for Beverages and other transformers are not only useless, they are often incorrectly grounded and actually increase unwanted coupling!" Sorry if this out of context, I'm just trying to get info. Btw. I'd like to apply any response to potcore transformers. Is the exit point you mention related to the impedance of the winding? Do I want to exit with the lower impedance winding? If I use a Faraday shield, the grounding wire is a 15ft horizontal run and a 20ft vertical drop, before earth ground. Is it still reasonable to think it will work? Mike Article: 226097 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: w8ji@akorn.net Subject: Re: Voltage feeding a VHF yagi Date: 6 Jul 2006 17:56:02 -0700 Message-ID: <1152233762.848358.152070@s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> References: <1152164230.300210.322520@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com> n3ox.dan@gmail.com wrote: > Tom, I didn't know that the feedline decoupling issues with J-poles > were so bad. > > I'd be interested in more information about why it's such an issue. > Would a sleeve stub work better than an open wire stub? It's certainly > stupid to make the feedline MORE of an issue. Look at what the J-pole really is. 1.) You have a half-wave end-fed antenna. There has to be as much common mode current leaving the end of that point and flowing down the feedline as there is flowing out onto the antenna at that point. There isn't any exception to this rule. 2.) While that current may be small with a perfect half wave, it is never zero. It gets worse fast of the antenna is not 1/2 wl long electrically, or if it is thick. 3.) Now you have a 1/4 wl stub feeding that half-wave on the end. If you perfectly floated that 1/4 wl stub, common mode current in the stub would DECREASE as you move away from the feedpoint. But if you ground the 1/4 wl stub, current common mode INCREASES as you move away from the stub. This is why end-fed Zepps and J-poles model very good when a perfect ground independent current source is used to feed them. Unfortunately we can't do a perfect ground independent feedpoint in the real world, so depending on the CM impedance the amount of pattern distortion will be all over the place. This is why Zepps, antennas that are really just the same as a J-pole, are notorious for RF in the shack. The lack of feedlines in models are why people who do not include the feeder or feedline matching device to the 1/4 wl closed stub conclude they aren't so bad. Why would anyone go through all that bother to complicate the feed system in a Yagi is beyond me, when there are a half dozen easy solutions that were mentioned here. 73 Tom Article: 226098 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: w8ji@akorn.net Subject: Re: --W8ji-- Faraday shield Date: 6 Jul 2006 18:01:13 -0700 Message-ID: <1152234073.616363.291940@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com> References: <4e88d$44adaacc$45011502$360@KNOLOGY.NET> amdx wrote: > Is the exit point you mention related to the impedance of the winding? I added a "flying winding" to balance the seconday capacitance to ground, not to reduce it or shield it. > Do I want to exit with the lower impedance winding? I'm not sure what you mean. What I did won't work in other configurations. > If I use a Faraday shield, the grounding wire is a 15ft horizontal run > and a 20ft vertical drop, before earth ground. Is it still reasonable to > think it will work? No. The "faraday shield" will likely just couple signals and noise from the ground lead right into the antenna. I'd avoid the whole thing, and just separate the windings as much as losses allow. Hopefully you are using small low capacitance windings. 73 Tom Article: 226099 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "VE2CJW" References: <1152173135.362208.73310@b68g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <3b9rg.15863$nd1.21745@wagner.videotron.net> Subject: Some new facts and maybe an explanation. Message-ID: Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2006 21:46:39 -0400 In fact, I found out that I can hit the repeater sometimes if I let the carrier run for at least 5 seconds. I did reach it this afternoon every time I tried but can't reach it tonight. It is as if not enough power is reaching the repeater, probably because of distortion caused by the large condos in the path, that would explain the long time needed for the repeater to react to my signal. The antenna I am using is a Quantum QT-6A dual band with 6 db of gain on 2 meters. My coax is 60 feet of RG-8X mini foam ( I think this is too small ) and the radio is a Kenwood TM-G707A with 50 watts out on 2 meters. The repeater does not use a tone and is on a mountain at a height of about 1000 feet, it is 24.5 miles from here and I am 60 feet above sea level. The SWR was measured with a meter that is supposed to be unreliable on 2 meters so I don't trust the reading, anyway, my radio seems to find the antenna acceptable. The thing that proves that my setup is working right is that I can reach a couple of repeaters that are more than 70 miles from here but not on the same heading as the problematic one. I think I will get my antenna higher and maybe move it a few feet from where it is. Thanks for your help and suggestions guys, it is much appreciated. VE2CJW, Mike. "Ralph Mowery" a écrit dans le message de news: MIerg.595$vO.494@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net... > > "VE2CJW" wrote in message > news:3b9rg.15863$nd1.21745@wagner.videotron.net... >>I can hear the repeater very well, in fact, it comes in at S9+ all the >>time. I noticed that my SWR is around 2.5, I wonder what can cause this. >> >> Mike. >> > > If the repeater is S9+ on your receiver, unless the repeater is runing > very high power (300 watts +) > you should be able to hit it with a few watts. Sounds as if you need to > take your rig to another place and see if you can hit the repeater at all. > Maybe the repeater needs a subaudio tone to activate it and you do not > have it programmed in ? > You did not say what kind or how much coax you have between the rig and > the antenna. A SWR of 2.5 seems way too much. If you had about 100 feet > (30 meters) of rg-8 and a very bad antenna, the swr would not be too much > higher. > > Article: 226100 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: Voltage feeding a VHF yagi References: <1152164230.300210.322520@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com> <6cjvn3-s7p.ln1@p400bob.personal.cox.net> <1152218809.770077.3670@s26g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <1152222378.456155.303810@j8g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <1152233762.848358.152070@s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> Message-ID: Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2006 01:57:06 GMT w8ji@akorn.net wrote: > 1.) You have a half-wave end-fed antenna. There has to be as much > common mode current leaving the end of that point and flowing down the > feedline as there is flowing out onto the antenna at that point. There > isn't any exception to this rule. It certainly isn't that simple in a distributed network. The currents into the end of a half-wave section are certainly unbalanced at X and Y but the current amplitudes are pretty low. 5 watts into 5000 ohms is only about 30 mA. 1/4WL back at the shorted matching section at ++, the currents have to be close to balanced because of the short. The coax connection at A and B is closer to the short than it is to to X and Y. The current down the coax braid at B does NOT have to be equal to the current at the feedpoint at X since they are a good percentage of 1/4WL different in location. And common-mode current can form standing waves so common-mode current maximums and minimums exist depending upon location on the feedline. The lumped circuit model strikes (out) again. X +--A---------------------------- | +--B--------Y -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp Article: 226101 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2006 22:13:10 -0400 From: Mike Coslo Subject: Re: AM-FM broadcast radio/antenna in truck? References: <1152231331.422720.307440@s16g2000cws.googlegroups.com> Message-ID: <99qdnZchPq-pXjDZnZ2dnUVZ_oydnZ2d@adelphia.com> carkenord@juno.com wrote: > I have an external vertical antenna on my 2001 Ford F-250 pickup. > It's OEM, for the AM-FM broadcast radio in the cab of the truck. > This is a metal antenna, tapered from base to tip. > > This antenna is about 32 inches long, and sticks straight up in the > air. It appears to have something spirally wrapped on the exterior of > it, helically wound, with about 1 turn per inch of antenna length. > > Does this antenna serve both AM and FM? I can't tell for sure, but > it looks as though there is coax running from the radio to the base of > the antenna. No markings on the coax that I can discern, but it hard > to see up under the dash, with a flashlight! > > What would be a probable ohmic value for this coax, if indeed that > black cable IS coax!? Would it most likely be approx. 50 ohm........or > 75 ohm........or what? > > What is the likely (or "common") configuration of the above > antenna? Would I call it a ¼ wave vertical for the FM freqs? As you > can tell.......I don't know much about how an AM-FM auto radio and > antenna are designed. > > Any chance that the AM part of the radio uses a ferrite rod antenna, > and that the external, visible antenna is FM only? > > This radio is a VERY good receiver, compared to 3 other AM-FM receivers > that I have.....Sony, GE, and a Grundig. It "pulls in" weak > stations in an impressive manner. > > Please, someone fill me in a bit here, or direct me to a good website. > I _HAVE_ GOOGLED around, but found mostly nothing pertinent to my > questions. > > Thank you so much........ Lee Carkenord > While there antennas that are wrapped with wire, such as some shortened CB antennas, most auto radio antennas that have this spiral appearance are made that way to cut down on wind noise - it isn't wire. - 73 de Mike KB3EIA - Article: 226102 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Kevin Hastings" References: Subject: Re: Horizontal HF Loop Message-ID: Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2006 02:15:56 GMT Newman - I'd like to hear more about this approach. How big is the loop tgat you are thinking about, and how high etc. I might try something similar before winter if you get some decent resukts with yours. 73 Kevin VE9XYZ "M.M." wrote in message news:Zuhrg.105817$iU2.81564@fed1read01... > Newman wrote: >> Anyone here tried an HF horizonal loop built around residence? (either >> attached under eaves or to trees very close by)... >> Did it work? ... > > I had an 80M loop up for a while. Put a mast on each end of the house & > used some trees in the back yard. It was kind of a lop-sided pentagon and > up about 25' or so. I fed it 100W with ladder line & a Johnson Matchbox. I > was very happy with it. It was a bit of a cloud-warmer on 80 but did > pretty well on the upper bands. I regularly used it on 20M for a sked with > a buddy in Indiana (from Arizona). A storm blew down a couple of the trees > or I'd probably still have it. I don't recall any RFI in my house altho my > neighbor had a problem with one of his el-cheapo phones. If you have the > supports, go for it...it's only a couple hundred feet of wire and you > might be surprised how well it works... Article: 226103 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Message-ID: <44ADCA31.2010307@fuse.net> Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2006 22:42:57 -0400 From: jawod Subject: Re: HFTA-ARRL-Space References: <52ec8$44a69065$453d9423$8142@FUSE.NET> <44A6F80E.6010102@fuse.net> <59kea2tv6pma7sic35eufbijongfaa6cl3@4ax.com> Richard Clark wrote: > On Sat, 01 Jul 2006 18:32:46 -0400, jawod wrote: > >>This I don't understand. To me, refraction versus reflection IS the >>issue. In optics, Brewster's angle is used. I still don't quite >>understand thte PseudoBrewster's Angle...it seems to have a different >>definition (at least in the ARRL book). > > > Hi John, > > Perhaps you should offer that definition as its application seems to > be quite rare, and paired with some obscurity to the world of > sub-atomic dispersion. > I looked in some of my dusty old Optics texts to find Brewster: has more to do with polarization. Brewster's angle is the incident angle of light at which the reflected beam is the most completely polarized. My bad. I was thinking of the critical angle above which the light is reflected back from the media interface and below which the light is refracted through the "2nd" medium. PseudoBrewster's Angle (PBA) is the "angle at which the reflected wave is 90 degrees out of phase with respect to the direct wave" (p. 3-13 ARRL Antenna Book). I see now that Both Brewster and PBA have to do with polarization. > >>I guess I was trying to get at how much ham radio is propagated into >>space. Certainly SOME does. > > > SOME about covers it (you want that specified in dB?). I suppose by > your other references to SETI you are wondering about the chances of a > QSO in the same frequency from the other side of that ionospheric > curtain. > Not really looking for a QSO. Just trying to imagine SWL from a different vantage point, I guess. > Given the odds, one frequency is as good as the next.... > > >>How does this compare to that amount propagated into space by Broadcast? > > > There you have to consider the magnitude of flux, continuously, over > the years. If the broadcasting is from Fox news (or any Murdoch > source for that matter), it will be indistinguishable from pinko > noise. Short entries in some entity's log: "No intelligent life found" and "why am I suddenly hungry?". > > 73's > Richard Clark, KB7QHC Article: 226104 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Message-ID: <44ADCC7D.4020305@fuse.net> Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2006 22:52:45 -0400 From: jawod Subject: Re: HFTA-ARRL-Space References: <52ec8$44a69065$453d9423$8142@FUSE.NET> <3bjea2pjtija9e759p6sgua4vvtcv1udqt@4ax.com> Dave wrote: > "Owen Duffy" wrote in message > news:3bjea2pjtija9e759p6sgua4vvtcv1udqt@4ax.com... > >>On Sat, 01 Jul 2006 16:11:42 -0700, Richard Clark >>wrote: >> >> >> >>>On the other hand, at HF the ratio between reflection and refraction >>>varies. There are times when both occur. During those times the >>>portion of the incident ray that is reflected returns to earth, while >>>the portion that is refracted continues on through the ionosphere into >>>space and never returns. I'm not sufficiently knowledgeable on the >> >>But is it actually reflection? > > > no, it is actually a refraction. but it is useful sometimes to model it as > a reflection from a slightly higher level. that makes computation of angles > of incidence and height a bit easier. > > If the end result is that the wave returns back to earth, why is this not termed reflection? Even if it is the result of several and/or continuous refractions that result in a return of the wave from the 2nd medium to the 1st, i.e., they sum to result in a reflected angle, seems to me reflection is a good term. I understand that a curved surface is more complex but if the result is the same, ...? Article: 226105 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Some new facts and maybe an explanation. From: Dave Oldridge References: <1152173135.362208.73310@b68g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <3b9rg.15863$nd1.21745@wagner.videotron.net> Message-ID: Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2006 03:01:09 GMT "VE2CJW" wrote in news:X1jrg.23764$gC3.137780@weber.videotron.net: > In fact, I found out that I can hit the repeater sometimes if I let > the carrier run for at least 5 seconds. I did reach it this afternoon > every time I tried but can't reach it tonight. It is as if not enough > power is reaching the repeater, probably because of distortion caused > by the large condos in the path, that would explain the long time > needed for the repeater to react to my signal. The antenna I am using > is a Quantum QT-6A dual band with 6 db of gain on 2 meters. My coax is > 60 feet of RG-8X mini foam ( I think this is too small ) and the radio > is a Kenwood TM-G707A with 50 watts out on 2 meters. The repeater does > not use a tone and is on a mountain at a height of about 1000 feet, it > is 24.5 miles from here and I am 60 feet above sea level. The SWR was > measured with a meter that is supposed to be unreliable on 2 meters so > I don't trust the reading, anyway, my radio seems to find the antenna > acceptable. The thing that proves that my setup is working right is > that I can reach a couple of repeaters that are more than 70 miles > from here but not on the same heading as the problematic one. I think > I will get my antenna higher and maybe move it a few feet from where > it is. Thanks for your help and suggestions guys, it is much > appreciated. > > VE2CJW, Mike. > > "Ralph Mowery" a écrit dans le message de > news: MIerg.595$vO.494@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net... >> >> "VE2CJW" wrote in message >> news:3b9rg.15863$nd1.21745@wagner.videotron.net... >>>I can hear the repeater very well, in fact, it comes in at S9+ all >>>the time. I noticed that my SWR is around 2.5, I wonder what can >>>cause this. >>> >>> Mike. >>> >> >> If the repeater is S9+ on your receiver, unless the repeater is >> runing very high power (300 watts +) >> you should be able to hit it with a few watts. Sounds as if you need >> to take your rig to another place and see if you can hit the repeater >> at all. Maybe the repeater needs a subaudio tone to activate it and >> you do not have it programmed in ? >> You did not say what kind or how much coax you have between the rig >> and the antenna. A SWR of 2.5 seems way too much. If you had about >> 100 feet (30 meters) of rg-8 and a very bad antenna, the swr would >> not be too much higher. 2.5 to 1 measured at the transceiver is an enormous SWR. If it were INFINITE at the antenna end, you'd still only get 3.2 to 1 or so at the end of 60 feet of RG8X. Replacing that coax with LMR400 or, better yet, heliax would, the problem is with the antenna, give you a much higher SWR. The trick is to find some way to measure the SWR at the antenna. If it is atrociously high, then you have an antenna problem (something is broken or not connected properly). Measuring SWR at the transceiver on VHF is almost useles unless the coax run is very short or very low loss. 60 feet of RG8X will only transmit about 53 percent of your signal anyway. The rest goes to heating the coax. If the SWR at the transceiver end is 2.5, it's probably well over 10 at the antenna, which means you're probably not getting more than 1% of your folded back signal out into space. If it was mine, I'd bring the antenna down and test it at ground level until I got it taking power properly. If you can borrow an analyzer, even an MFJ 259b and measure the antenna directly at its terminal, that will help you see what the antenna is doing. -- Dave Oldridge+ ICQ 1800667 Article: 226106 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "n3ox.dan@gmail.com" Subject: Re: AM-FM broadcast radio/antenna in truck? Date: 6 Jul 2006 20:29:56 -0700 Message-ID: <1152242996.248159.241200@k73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> References: <1152231331.422720.307440@s16g2000cws.googlegroups.com> I think the AM receiver input on car stereos is VERY VERY high impedance; the antenna on AM is basically a voltage probe. I don't know if the FM RX input is the same way, but the antenna is just a stick of stainless steel. The car stereo uses the single antenna for both bands as far as I remember; a ferrite loop doesn't work in a car - - - you'd get fades going around corners, etc. because of the directionality. The spiral wrap is plastic. It does something to break up the vortices that would usually be shed periodically off the antenna in the wind. Dan Article: 226107 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "n3ox.dan@gmail.com" Subject: Re: AM-FM broadcast radio/antenna in truck? Date: 6 Jul 2006 20:37:53 -0700 Message-ID: <1152243473.901359.188510@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com> References: <1152231331.422720.307440@s16g2000cws.googlegroups.com> The cable, btw, is designed to be very low capacitance. It's not normal coax. Article: 226108 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: horiz. loop - triangle shape work? From: Ed G Message-ID: Date: 07 Jul 2006 04:05:28 GMT Anyone have experience with horizontal loops in a triangle shape? I have trees on my property that will allow this configuration. I'll have about 100' on each of the three sides. It is pretty much an equilaterl triangle, and the height should be about 60 feet. I'd like opinions before I go to the effort of getting it up. I'd also like opinions on whether or not it should tune at all on 160M. I have an MFJ balanced tuner to feed the 600 ohm ladder line I plan on using. Ed K7AAT Article: 226109 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "n3ox.dan@gmail.com" Subject: Re: horiz. loop - triangle shape work? Date: 6 Jul 2006 21:16:34 -0700 Message-ID: <1152245793.947530.36900@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com> References: Triangle will work fine. 160m probably not; it's a bit short. It would help if you included a relay opposite the feedpoint to open it on 160m. 73, Dan Ed G wrote: > Anyone have experience with horizontal loops in a triangle shape? > > I have trees on my property that will allow this configuration. I'll > have about 100' on each of the three sides. It is pretty much an > equilaterl triangle, and the height should be about 60 feet. I'd like > opinions before I go to the effort of getting it up. I'd also like > opinions on whether or not it should tune at all on 160M. I have an MFJ > balanced tuner to feed the 600 ohm ladder line I plan on using. > > Ed K7AAT Article: 226110 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Owen Duffy Subject: Re: I really ned help here. Message-ID: References: <1152173135.362208.73310@b68g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <3b9rg.15863$nd1.21745@wagner.videotron.net> Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2006 04:35:32 GMT On Thu, 6 Jul 2006 10:33:40 -0400, "VE2CJW" wrote: >I can hear the repeater very well, in fact, it comes in at S9+ all the time. Ok, finally, that is an important observation. Don't forget the S meters on FM radios are not usually calibrated to the popular S9=50uV, more like 10uV fsd. That aside, the repeater should be workable if you address the issues below. (You have indicated in another post that you can key it up with a long carrier burst, so that clears away access tone issues, however some repeaters may use the Motorola smart mute idea where the carrier squelch is set at a relatively higher level that that which will open the CTCSS.) Over here, repeaters are not always balanced in terms of rx and tx, they are usually designed to be a little easier for mobiles to hear because of the higher noise environment, so it may under normal conditions hear you a little poorer than you hear it if you are running ~25W. Is that the practice in Canada? >I noticed that my SWR is around 2.5, I wonder what can cause this. Firstly, because of the inherently higher loss of coax (I assume coax) at 2m, you can not usually afford high VSWR on most practical coax runs. As an indication, most commercial antennas intended for 50 ohms coax connection would specify a max VSWR of 1.5 or less. Secondly, the VSWR at the antenna end of the line is even higher, and you wouldn't normally be using an antenna that would exhibit such a high VSWR if it were operating properly, so it is a sign that the antenna / feedline system has a problem. Thirdly, standing waves set up in space around your antenna as a result of the interference of waves arriving by different paths. A similar effect occurs on transmit. It is possible that your antenna is located in one of these nulls, and moving even slightly might make a large change. If that is happening you need to find a sweet spot that works for both transmit and receive on that frequency without messing up operation with other repeaters on other frequencies. You could choose to play with the third issue, but your antenna / feedline has a problem that should be attended to as a priority, regardless of whether you trick your way into the repeater. Owen -- Article: 226111 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: dplatt@radagast.org (Dave Platt) Subject: Re: horiz. loop - triangle shape work? Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2006 04:30:11 -0000 Message-ID: <12aroqj2chrpu45@corp.supernews.com> References: <1152245793.947530.36900@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com> >Triangle will work fine. > >160m probably not; it's a bit short. It would help if you included a >relay opposite the feedpoint to open it on 160m. I've read of people using an L/C resonant trap instead of a relay, for just this purpose. The trap opens the loop on the lowest band, and appears as a capacitive reactance in series with the loop on the higher-frequency bands. -- Dave Platt AE6EO Hosting the Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads! Article: 226112 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Owen Duffy Subject: Re: Some new facts and maybe an explanation. Message-ID: <6qora2t7amgltgpm10a2a4dh72ojg6pth8@4ax.com> References: <1152173135.362208.73310@b68g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <3b9rg.15863$nd1.21745@wagner.videotron.net> Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2006 04:43:00 GMT On Thu, 6 Jul 2006 21:46:39 -0400, "VE2CJW" wrote: >to my signal. The antenna I am using is a Quantum QT-6A dual band with 6 db >of gain on 2 meters. My coax is 60 feet of RG-8X mini foam ( I think this is >too small ) and the radio is a Kenwood TM-G707A with 50 watts out on 2 >meters. The repeater does not use a tone and is on a mountain at a height of If the VSWR at the tx end of your line is 2.5, it is likely to be around 4 at the antenna if the line is in good condition. That antenna cannot be designed to be such a bad match, so antenna and/or line have a fault. Of your 50 watts, less than half is reaching the antenna right now, whereas if the antenna had a VSWR <1.5, you would get about 60% to the antenna. Is that OK for you (antenna/feed faults aside)? Do you use this on 70cm? The cable is even lossier with around 40% of power reaching the antenna. You might be happy with that, it might work the repeaters that you want. Owen -- Article: 226113 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: nm5k@wt.net Subject: Re: Voltage feeding a VHF yagi Date: 6 Jul 2006 21:39:36 -0700 Message-ID: <1152247176.557737.296390@s53g2000cws.googlegroups.com> References: <1152164230.300210.322520@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com> Jeff wrote: > > > > I guess I'm missing it, but what problem is there > > running the feedline to the normal center fed yagi? > > No matter if against a mast, or mounted on a mast > > with the center of the boom attached to the mast, I > > don't see a problem. I do it all the time. > > No matter what polarization, I tape the coax to > > the mast, and then tape it to the boom to the feedpoint. > > I'd much rather run the yagi in the normal manner. > > This is a problem that is particular to vertically polarized yagis that are > mounted with a pole going between the elements. The pole has to come up > parallel to the elements to the boom. Some people overcome this by using > non-conductive pole, BUT what do you do with the feeder, if you tape it to > the pole you might just as well have used a metal pole!!! > > However, as I said in my previous post, my simulations seem to show that > with careful positioning the effects can to quite small > > 73 > Jeff I think normally the effect is fairly small. But I suppose it can vary per the position, and mast length, etc.. I guess it's all how picky you are about the gain/pattern. For moonbounce, etc, it might be worth worrying about. But for just a general purpose FM beam, I probably wouldn't worry too much. Unless the mast was a certain length to become resonant, it should pretty much be ignored by the antenna for the most part. Seems to me, right in the middle of the two midpoint elements would be about best, but I've never modeled other positions. I have seen quite a few people run vertical yagis with the midpoint mast mount with no serious problems. I think any small loss of performance would be less than trying to voltage feed thats for sure. You'll see lots of antenna ad's with pictures of vertical beams mounted on masts in that manner, so it shouldn't be too bad. I agree. There should be little difference in using a metal mast, or plastic, if the feedline shield is in place on both. I'd just as soon use the metal mast I think. It would look fatter with the extra metal mast, but I don't know if that would be a plus or a minus... MK