From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 14 10:28:46 2001 Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA06257 for ; Sun, 14 Jan 2001 10:28:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA01942 for ; Sun, 14 Jan 2001 10:31:39 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200101141531.KAA01942@listserv.albany.edu> Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 10:31:38 -0500 From: "L-Soft list server at University at Albany (1.8d)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0002B" To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Content-Length: 196879 Lines: 4301 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 01:21:09 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: MatHig@AOL.COM Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 6 Feb 2000 to 7 Feb 2000 (#2000-37) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/7/00 11:03:33 PM Central Standard Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU writes: << wasps and yellow jackets >> There are many many species of wasps, but most common examples are classified in the family Vespidae. Typical examples are: yellowjacket: Vespula maculifrons (Buysson) bald faced hornet: Vespula maculata (L) paper wasp: Polistes fuscatus pallipes Lepeletier It's been awhile since I studied any taxonomy. Hope I spelled them ok. Matt Higdon mid MO, mid USA ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 23:15:39 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Elizabeth Vogt Subject: Re: wasps and yellow jackets MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chris Slade (02/07/00) asked of BEE-Listers : "I notice from this mail that wasps and yellow jackets are not alternative names for the same insect. For the benefit of those of us who don't have them can somebody post the latin names please?" Chris et al.: 'Yellow jackets' are a kind of wasp. I hope the following is helpful: Yellow Jackets: Kingdom: Animalia Phylum: Arthropoda Class: Hexapoda (or Insecta) Order: Hymenoptera (= Bees, Ants, Wasps, Sawflies) Suborder: Apocrita (= wasps with a constricted "waist") Superfamily: Vespoidea ( = social wasps) Family: Vespidae (= ground, and some aerial, nesting wasps) Species: Vespula and Dolichovespula According to an American Bee Journal article (1987, vol. 127, page 693 by Mayer et al.) , the species of yellow jackets associated w/ honey bees in the USA are: Vespula pensylvanica, V. vulgaris, and V. germanica. If possible, also see the following publication for help with yellow jacket classification: The Yellowjackets of America North of Mexico. 1980. USDA Agr. Handbook 552. 102 pages, by Akre, Greene, MacDonald, Landolt, and Davis. There are many thousands of wasp species that are in hymenopteran families OTHER than the Vespidae. That is, "yellow jackets" constitute but a few species of predaceous wasps. Sincerely, Elizabeth Vogt approx. 123 W 48N ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 21:30:54 +1300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ron Law Subject: Re: Heating honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've recently challenged a nutritionist who said that honey was no different to sugar. She said that all the enzymes and vitamins were destroyed because honey was routinely heated. In the end she acknowledged that if that was true, next to no processed food would have any vitamins as they are all heat processed. We successfully got our food standards people to accept that there is a nutritional difference between honey and sugar. Is there a standard for heating honey without destroying its nutritional qualities? "The flavour does not seen to diminish" doesn't seem like a very scientific measure of quality. Ron Larry Krengel wrote: > ...Assuming that my 105 degrees is a good number, are there any adverse effects to > holding it there for a lengthy time? I find the honey that I bottle is clarified > nicely in two or three days and it is nice not to have it crystallize while sitting > on the > shelf. The flavor appears not to be diminished, but I especially wonder about the > enzymes that make honey desirable. > > Your thoughts are appreciated. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 09:43:47 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Computer Software Solutions Ltd Subject: Feeding bees at dawn Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello All Thanks for all the replies I got to the above question. I tried it after I got an e mail which said it would be OK but to be careful of spillages which I was. The advice could not have been more incorrect. If I had only waited for the later e mails which strongly advised against it I would have been far better off. Isn't it a pity that hindsight is never around when you need it!! I fed the bees just after dawn. Just after I had fed them the first e mail arrived warning me not to do it. There was no problem from the bees for the first three hours or so and then mayhem broke out. Bees flying in large numbers, every hive being buzzed by robbers yours truly stung incessantly. Later that day I had to leave Dublin on business so I do not know how the saga progressed, or how long it took for things to quieten down. To those who said do not feed at dawn, thank you kindly. To those who said feed at dawn, take the advice of someone who now knows, and do not do it. Sincerely Tom Barrett 49 South Park Foxrock Dublin 18 Ireland ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 12:11:29 -0300 Reply-To: jtemp@xs4all.nl Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jan Tempelman Organization: Home sweet home Subject: Re: Heating honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit New honey contains 1 to 5 mg/kg HMF. In Holland, it is forbidden to sell honey with more than 40 mg/kg HMF. When honey is being stored at 20 C (68F) the HMF content will raise ±1 mg/kg per month. Only fructose will become HMF. So the rise dependent on the kind of honey!! Heating the honey will raise HMF contents rapidly. The longer and/or hotter it is heated, the higher the HMF will become. Table of the time to produce 30 ppm HMF temperature time in day's 30 °C 80 °F 150-250 40 °C 110 °F 20-50 50 °C 135 °F 4.5-9 60 °C 160 °F 1- 2,5 70 °C 185 °F 5 -14 houre >From Belgium (VIB) honeybook (1990??) what heat (and microwave) do with enzyme, see: htp://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/EnzThem.html regards, jan Larry Krengel wrote: > One aspect of heating honey that I don't > recall having discussed is the effect of the length of time held at an elevated > temperature. With my freezer-warmer, it is ease to hold the temperature constant > for as long as I want. -- the orginal drone methode, fight the varroa chemistry free Jan Tempelman Kerkstraat 53 NL 7471 AG Goor xx.31.(0)547.275788 http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/index3.html mailto:jtemp@xs4all.nl -- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 14:23:07 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Seppo Korpela Organization: Agricultural Research Centre of Finland Subject: Re: Heating honey In-Reply-To: <01JLHD5JPUTGEMYFLH@mtt.fi> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > The flavor appears not to be diminished, but I especially wonder about > the enzymes that make honey desirable. The temperature you have chosen for a prolonged storage temperature to keep the honey in liquid form is too high, if you want to preserve enzymes of the honey. In 105 degrees F (= 40 deg. C) the half-live time for the enzyme invertase is only 10 days. Other values for this enzyme (deg. C / half-life): 10/26.3 years, 20/2.3 years, 30/83 days, 50/1.3 days ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 13:22:56 -0300 Reply-To: jtemp@xs4all.nl Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jan Tempelman Organization: Home sweet home Subject: Re: Heating honey Mistake (little) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jan Tempelman wrote: > what heat (and microwave) do with enzyme, see: > htp://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/EnzThem.html http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/EnzThem.html two " tt".... jan!!!! ;-) regards, jan -- the orginal drone methode, fight the varroa chemistry free Jan Tempelman Kerkstraat 53 NL 7471 AG Goor xx.31.(0)547.275788 http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/index3.html mailto:jtemp@xs4all.nl -- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 22:14:00 PST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Deodato Wirz Vieira Subject: Re: Computers AND Apidictor Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sometimes it has to be said: People miss the obvious The obvious being missed this time seems to me: It is very expensive to develop such a system, not to build it With Allen's wish list being as "small" as it is, has anybody asked himself how long will it take of research (and with how many hives), under how many different conditions, and so long, and whatever else, until one knows how to correlate all the data gathered (let's recall: temperature, sound, bee count, weight) to get meaningful answers satisfying the wish list? There lies the expense of development. It will have to be done in collaboration with the beekeepers (at least some beekeepers), and I don’t believe it will work on first try, quite the opposite. As I see it, the problem, the financial side of it, is not the putting together of all the existing bits and pieces, but the correlation of all the data into a meaningful whole. Some questions do come to mind: How will that system work in hot climates with no winter to speak of? Who will test it there? Who will test at all? Could beekeeper’s associations be of help? What about university research funding? Deodato Wirz Vieira ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 08:25:05 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Swintosky, Michael D." Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 6 Feb 2000 to 7 Feb 2000 (#2000-37) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Adrian Wenner wrote: By a fortunate circumstance, pure sugar solution (i.e., sucrose or table sugar) has no odor, with its vapor pressure of zero. However, one must take extreme care in preparation of experimental sugar solution, because any contaminant (in the solution or nearby) can provide an odor cue for searching bees. One must also take extreme care to not inadvertently furnish any marking odor at experimental feeding stations in the field. Question: Are honeybees (or other bees/insects for that matter) capable of leaving a scent of their own to mark the location of a food source? Mike Swintosky ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 07:11:30 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Feeding bees at dawn Comments: To: "sci.ag.bee" In-Reply-To: <200002081214.HAA18514@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Isn't it a pity that hindsight is never around when you need it!! That's why we have the BEE-L logs. sci.agriculture.beekeeping also has searchable logs. Feeding and robbing has been discussed many times over the years on each of these resources, and just about every method and timing imaginable has been strongly advocated by some and equally strongly condemned by others. The responses vary form uninformed nonsense to well thought out technical explanations of the advantages and the pitfalls. The wide range of opinions and experiences detailed there are available 24 hours a day and seven days a week for anyone to access by a reasonably simple search. In contrast, asking a question 'live' on the list is risky if you need a quick answer. Such a request will bring some answers, but oftentimes, those who have written on the topic before will not reply, especially if they have previously gone to lengths to ensure a comprehensive and balanced explanation is made. Our Mennonite neighbours have an expression that goes somewhat thus: "Strangers rush in to help, but neighbours take time to dress". Those who think a topic is simple will rattle off a quick and simple reply, while those who are aware that there are too many parameters involved for simple statements to be truthful have to decide whether to prepare their thoughts and to spend an hour or two writing a response that does the topic justice. > I fed the bees just after dawn. Just after I had fed them the first e mail > arrived warning me not to do it. There was no problem from the bees for the > first three hours or so and then mayhem broke out. Bees flying in large > numbers, every hive being buzzed by robbers yours truly stung incessantly. Too bad. Our logs contain a simple and effective method for stopping robbing dead in its tracks. > To those who said do not feed at dawn, thank you kindly. To those who said > feed at dawn, take the advice of someone who now knows, and do not do it. We commercial beekeepers feed our bees anytime, including dawn -- if we are up that early, or still up that late. We don't know what you fed, or how you fed it, but -- trust me -- the time of day was likely not the largest factor in your debacle. There is far more to feeding bees than the time of day -- or any other one simple factor. Feeding bees is a complex and technical problem that won't be adequately covered in a few paragraphs, or even a few pages. The method selected, the weather, the presence or absence of flowers in the neighbourhood, the type of bees, the absolute and relative strengths of the hives, the hive design, the entrance size, the feed chosen and its odor, recent history, the amount of feed already in the hives, the geographical location and time of year, and many, many more factors will influence the outcome. An experienced beekeeper will size up the situation without even being aware of it and be able to see if feeding wise or if it is folly, and the best method and timing to use. It is a much tougher decision for the inexperienced. allen ----- See if your questions have been answered in over a decade of discussions. BEE-L archives & more: http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/Bee-l.htm Search sci.agriculture.beekeeping at http://www.deja.com/ or visit http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee to access both on the same page. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 09:15:58 -0500 Reply-To: mpalmer@together.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Michael Palmer Organization: French Hill Apiaries Subject: Re: Feeding bees at dawn MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Now Tom, You tell me. Why is it I can feed my bees in the middle of the day, and not have "all mayhem" break loose? With 1000 colonies to feed each fall(probably 1/3 that number need feed in the spring), how could I possibly feed them at dusk. I think it absurd, in my experience, to say bees can't safely be fed during the day. I don't find excessive robbing or stinging going on when I feed during the day. You know, when we feed bees, it is usually done without wearing veils. First, one helper and I weigh the hive. You know, actually pick the hive up with a hanging scale, and then put it back down-usually roughly as we have at least 100 a day to do. I smoke each colony before toutching it, and have no problem with stinging. The next person comes behind with the cans of syrup. They too are usually without veils. During this time I see no excessive robbing or stinging. Each year, I may see one or two colonies robbed. These invariably prove to be queenless or so weak as to be worthless anyway. While most of my bee yards are located away from populated areas, I do have some near peoples' residences. I've yet to have any complaints. While I don't doubt your bad experiences, I fail to understand why this happens to you and not to me. Mike Computer Software Solutions Ltd wrote: > Thanks for all the replies I got to the above question. I tried it after I > got an e mail which said it would be OK . The advice could not have been more > incorrect. > I fed the bees just after dawn. There was no problem from the bees for the > first three hours or so and then mayhem broke out. Bees flying in large > numbers, every hive being buzzed by robbers yours truly stung incessantly. > To those who said do not feed at dawn, thank you kindly. To those who said > feed at dawn, take the advice of someone who now knows, and do not do it. > > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 09:28:58 -0500 Reply-To: todd@honeygardens.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Todd D. Hardie" Organization: Honey Gardens Apiaries Subject: POST for Beekeeper bulletin.... Comments: cc: Daniel Breton MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Please post this: Thank you. Todd Hardie My name is Daniel Breton and I am an independent filmmaker residing in New York City. I have recently completed a film called, "EAT-MATE-DIE the Lives of Insects" which is now entered in festivals in the US and Canada. am currently working on a film with the National Audubon Society and Project Puffin, scheduled for production in June-July. I have a new insect film idea. It is going to be about the times in an insects life that most people are unaware of. For example, Most people know what an adult June Beetle looks like as they clamor on our window screens during summer nights, but most people don't realize that the beetle was once a grub living under their lawn. (You get the idea) The insects I want to focus on are: Hornets/Paper Wasps, Ants, Bees, June Beetles, Tiger Beetles and Dragonflies. I am looking for someone to help me locate a Hornet/Paper wasp nest, where I will be allowed to set up a temporary blind (July to September). I will return to it on weekends during the summer and fall, capturing the life of the colonies inhabitants. I am a respectful person and will under no circumstances leave any debris or trash on this property and I will remove my blind at the end of the season, leaving no mess behind. I am hoping to find someone's help that lives reasonably near New York City, as I would hope to be able to get to the nest by train and then on foot. Any help regarding this would be forever appreciated! My email is: daytimemoon@earthlink.net and my phone number is 212-627-8825 Thank you, Dan. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 17:34:16 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Madeleine Pym Subject: Re: Feeding bees at dawn MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tom, because I know you are in the city and don't have the luxury of an out apiary far from habitation, I think you would be better sticking to the dusk feeding scenario. If you feed at dawn the bees will spend part of the morning excited by the new source of food and searching (unless of course it was pouring with rain and they were stuck inside the hive). They will then check out all nearby sources and robbing can ensue if you have any weaker colonies. But perhaps more importantly, for an urban beekeeper, if there is a dearth of nectar the bees will be at the windows of every house in the neighbourhood seeing if they are the magical source of their new found source (don't ask me how I know). I stick to dusk feeding, or very wet weather, I also always put any wet supers back at dusk. My theory is that (apart from eliminating the incidence of robbing) they have the entire night to get over the excitement, get on with the work of taking down the syrup or repairing wax, ready for a productive day the next morning. Therefore you are making good use of the night time. I have never had any problem doing it this way. Madeleine Pym mpym@hive.netkonect.co.uk ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 11:12:12 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Adrian Wenner Subject: Odor, not Odor --- II Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Michael Swintosky requested the following clarification: >Question: Are honeybees (or other bees/insects for that matter) capable of >leaving a scent of their own to mark the location of a food source? [That is, marking akin to other animals that mark their territory via urination or feces piles.] In the late 1960s Josue A. Nunez conducted experiments, results of which indicated that a bee, after draining a flower of nectar, might leave a scent mark of some kind such that it or other bees would recognize such scent as the sign of an empty blossom. Early in our experimental program, we recognized what we called the "dirty dish syndrome." Foragers repeatedly visiting a dish inadvertently provide an odor accumulation; hence, even though sucrose solution has no odor, the dish soon does. To counter that artifact, each 15 minutes we set out a clean dish and filled it with fresh sugar solution. The dirty dish went into a tight plastic bag. Our success at such sanitation efforts is reflected in the following quotation from our 1969 SCIENCE crucial paper: "[Consider]...the extremely low recruitment rate of regular foragers collecting unscented sucrose at an unscented site. On 25 July 1968 ... in the absence of a major nectar source for the colony, we received only five recruits from a hive of approximately 60,000 bees after ten bees had foraged at each of four stations, for a total of 1374 round trips during a 3-hour period." One can easily see how a not-so-careful researcher could obtain recruitment to "unscented" food by not taking sufficient care while running an experiment. Those and other results are summarized in Chapter 10 of our 1990 ANATOMY OF A CONTROVERSY... book. Adrian Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home phone) 967 Garcia Road (805) 893-8062 (UCSB FAX) Santa Barbara, CA 93106 ******************************************************************** * * "History teaches that having the whole world against you * doesn't necessarily mean you will lose." * * Ashleigh Brilliant's Pot-Shot # 7521, used by permission * ******************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 11:12:20 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Adrian Wenner Subject: Research Funding Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Al Lipscomb wrote (in part): >The offspring in the "dance" area may come from the contract pollination >area of beekeeping. Beekeepers (as well as their customers) may be making >choices in how they handle hive placement based on their understanding of >bee navigational abilities. -- clip -- > .... If the "dance" theory is incorrect then the result of the >choices is left to chance. No, not only to chance --- one must factor in wind direction. My articles in the AMERICAN BEE JOURNAL (Oct.Nov.Dec.,1998) provide information on how one could place hives for pollination to good advantage. In particular, study the figures in the November issue. In an area of prevailing winds, hives can be placed within 200m upwind of the orchard for maximum effect, since recruited bees apparently begin their search downwind from the parent colony and thus would already be nearly in the orchard as they started searching. (However, if another orchard not under contract was then further upwind from the hives, success could not be assured.) Hives can be placed much greater distances directly downwind from an orchard, since the odor of blossoms would then drift right toward the colonies. The advantage here, of course, is that successful bees would fly upwind while unloaded and downwind while loaded --- very energy efficient. (Bees fly about 7.5 m/sec when empty and 6.5 m/sec when loaded; hence, flight times for a few hundred meters counts for little.) Adrian Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home phone) 967 Garcia Road (805) 893-8062 (UCSB FAX) Santa Barbara, CA 93106 ******************************************************************** * * "History teaches that having the whole world against you * doesn't necessarily mean you will lose." * * Ashleigh Brilliant's Pot-Shot # 7521, used by permission * ******************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 11:12:31 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Adrian Wenner Subject: Research Funding Comments: cc: jriley@nriradar.demon.co.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Jerry Bromenshenk wrote (in part): >A question was asked about the article in Nature and reports of using >harmonic radar to track bees. > >Joe Riley in England pioneered this system, and Elizabeth went to England >to use his setup. --- clip --- >Having said all of that, congrats to Joe and Elizabeth for the first steps >along this path. We may find that the bee does ignore the load. In the >meantime, we keep searching for the technology that makes the breakthrough >- range, individual bee I.D., unrestricted movement (in or outside the hive). ******** Joe Riley sent me a copy of their July paper that appeared in NATURE (on determining the flight speed of bumble bees by the radar method). He attached a note that reads as follows (in part): "Here is the first [of our papers], and you will note that our 'still air' value of 7.1 m/sec is very close to the figure you found for honey bees. Our results suggest that bumble bees compensate for wind primarily by changing height. Their adjustment of air speed is rather small." His reference to my work deals with paper I published in 1963: Wenner, A.M. The flight speed of honey bees: A quantitative approach. JOURNAL OF APICULTURAL RESEARCH. 2:25-32. In that study, also, wind speed did not influence the flight speed of bees fully; bees apparently flew closer to the ground and thereby exploited the "drag" on wind speed due to vegetation, etc. Note, though, with Hugh Dingle (now at UC Davis) helping as a volunteer, that quantitative study cost essentially nothing, mostly only our time. Adrian Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home phone) 967 Garcia Road (805) 893-8062 (UCSB FAX) Santa Barbara, CA 93106 ******************************************************************** * * "History teaches that having the whole world against you * doesn't necessarily mean you will lose." * * Ashleigh Brilliant's Pot-Shot # 7521, used by permission * ******************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 12:10:14 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tom Elliott Subject: Re: Robbed Out! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Marc Studebaker wrote: > It is too cold in Ohio in February to feed syrup. I have read frequently over the years that you can not feed sugar syrup in cold weather. However, here in Alaska I have been feeding sugar syrup continuously through the winter, regardless of temperatures, for the past three years. I also use a protein patty of feeg grade yeast with trapped pollen added. Using this method I am for the first time getting colonies through the winter with a useful strength. The wintering aspect is a tangential issue. It is the "'to cold to feed syrup" idea I am interested in. Does anyone have any ideas as to why I can safely feed syrup at -20 degrees F or even colder with no problems? -- "Test everything. Hold on to the good." (1 Thessalonians 5:21) Tom Elliott Chugiak, Alaska U.S.A. beeman@gci.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 16:50:11 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Thom Bradley Subject: Re: Robbed Out! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tom Elliott wrote: Does anyone have any ideas as to > why I can safely feed syrup at -20 degrees F or even colder with no problems? > Tom Elliott > Chugiak, Alaska > U.S.A. > beeman@gci.net Your syrup is really a solid block? : ) Thom Bradley Chesapeake, VA Frankly, as far as winter feeding is concerned I never saw a need to make syrup. I just put sugar in granular form on top of the inner cover if I'm just worried or on top of slitted newspaper or cardboard if real feeding is necessary. I could see the distinct advantages of candy laid on top of top bars but haven't found it necessary. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 15:18:56 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jerry J Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Computers AND Apidictor In-Reply-To: <200002081323.IAA20680@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 10:14 PM 2/7/00 PST, Deodato Wirz Vieira wrote: >Sometimes it has to be said: People miss the obvious > >The obvious being missed this time seems to me: It is very expensive to >develop such a system, not to build it Deodata is correct - developing the system, not building it is the major cost factor (time, dollars, personnel). However, the statement "People miss the obvious" is also appropriate: I'm not sure how anyone by now has missed the point that we have spent 6 years developing these technologies. We have tested some 50 electronic hives in MT, MD, MI, NM, AZ (I'd say the weather range was from cold to hot, rural to urban, farm to federal facilities (military sites). We have months and months of continous data over a several year period from multiple hives at multiple sites. We port all of the data across the Internet to our offices in Montana. The real work has been not in the electronics but in the software programs that collect, store, communicate, and interpret the data. Pattern learning computer programs routinely screen the data flows, checking bee performance (colony) against weather conditions, bee management activities, and exposures to a variety of stressors ranging from industrial pollutants to military chemicals to pesticides. Numerical processing software flags data events such as swarming, helping to provide clear and easy to interpret reports on each and every hive, apiary, and location in the U.S. This has been a more of less full time activity for UM faculty members, graduate students, and undergraduate students since 1995. We design, build, and test everything. We are just now beginning to publicize the technology, having done our homework (and lots of it). And yes, we have had lots of help from both hobbiest and commercial beekeepers in all of these states. The current work is an outgrowth of over 20 years of research aimed at developing better tools for investigating bees, providing new bee services that can be marketed by beekeepers, and hopefully, in the not too distant future, affordable systems that will bring precision agriculture capabilities to large and moderate scale bee operations. Cheers ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 13:26:05 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Bee Navigation In-Reply-To: <200002071415.JAA27421@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > The offspring in the "dance" area may come from the contract pollination > area of beekeeping. Beekeepers (as well as their customers) may be making > choices in how they handle hive placement based on their understanding of > bee navigational abilities. And also, maybe, the misunderstanding thereof... Scary, isn't it -- thousands (millions!) of dollars staked on a theory that is pretty academic and shaky, and which does not well begin to describe the situation we experience daily in the field where the targets of the pollination effort are distributed in no simple and easily describable fashion. Sometimes there are geographical obstacles or patterns, sometimes the crops are in pockets, here and there, sometimes there are competing crops nearby. Seldom are there a few dishes of sugar water provided by researchers. Nonetheless, we do get the job done. I often think that this is not something many researchers can take much credit for, Adrian being an notable exception. > An example of this was mentioned on the list a while ago. Farmers were > placing empty trailers in large fields to help the bees return to their > hives, assuming the bees would use these landmarks to navigate. If I > remember the report it worked and fewer field bees were lost. You can see pictures of such huge featureless alfalfa fields with trailers parked for bee navigation at http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/. Follow the 'California Pollination' link to see the pictures Andy sent me describing Brian Ferguson's outfit. > If assumptions are made as to the bees having a accurate navigation system > that is based on the "dance" then choices are most likely being made on this > information. I am not aware of a 'turn right at the trailer' dance step that bees must do if the trailers somehow fit into a theory that seems to have bees flying by some imaginary celestial reference map transmitted by dancing, and not by sight, smell, and local landmarks. Rather, I somehow think the beekeepers know that the bees need to see and maybe smell the trailers and use them as landmarks if theory are to return reliably to their hives. The need for such trailers would, to me, tend to discredit -- rather than confirm -- the belief that bees chiefly navigate as Von Frisch thought. If they did, the trailers should not be necessary. > If the choices are right, then the "dance" is being used to > help beekeepers. If the "dance" theory is incorrect then the result of the > choices is left to chance. I don't see what the trailers have to do with the dance. And, they are put there to eliminate chance. They allow the bees to navigate by sight, and smell. Speaking of Andy, which I was above, I guess it is now almost exactly a year since he passed on. I recall I was just planning to go to see him and to see the almond pollination when he took ill and died... allen ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 20:32:51 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Stan Sandler Subject: neighbours (was Feeding at Dawn) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > While most of my bee >yards are located away from populated areas, I do have some near peoples' >residences. I've yet to have any complaints. Hi Michael and All: I also have 1000 hives and could not agree more with your experiences and your posting on feeding, Michael (and your comments Allen). However, this spring I did have some complaints from neighbours close to my winter yards in the early spring before there was anything flowering and when the bees were looking for pollen. Prince Edward Island is very densely populated for a rural area, and for the winter I bring the bees close to home and have 150 or so hives in a yard. When we get a nice warm day in early April before the first alder flowers open (we have few pussy willows so that is our first pollen source) the bees are really flying around the neighbours quite densely. I put pollen extender patties on the hives, I put out dry substitute sometimes, and I mollify a few people with gifts of honey, but I must admit that it is a bit of a problem. A few people watered the bees (I suggested dripping hose on a mossy board) and that seemed to help with the dog water dish problem, so maybe they were searching for water sometimes, but I think a lot of it was just spring flights and there is something about houses that is attractive. I had not a single complaint from anyone around my fifty summer yards, but I did have a few grumbles in the early spring. Oddly enough, only my mother in law mentioned the beeshit problem. She has 150 hives right next to her house and they love spotting her car and eavestrough. Regards, Stan ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 07:44:09 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: Feeding bees at dawn In-Reply-To: <200002081742.MAA06027@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 I'm afraid I have to go with Allen Dick on this one. We are in a British Isles environment and have a number of apiaries in areas which could be considered 'built up' (although it must be said that they are in the edges of villages or small towns, not in cities, so in the case of inner city beekeepers I have to bow to their knowledge of their local conditions, of which I have no experience.) We have never noticed any advantage in feeding late in the day, indeed in evening the bees can be in a much worse temper than in the morning. Much more important is how you do it. Heavily feed the small hive in a group, yet do not feed the strong one which is fine for weight and you have a recipe for trouble, but only during nectar dearths. The use of contact feeders can also cause you a problem, as there is an inevitable leakage every time the pail is inverted. In this case, and given sufficiently high night time temperatures (which I doubt at this time of year in the British Isles, even in the normally milder Irish conditions) then the bees can tidy up the leakage overnight before the opportunists find it in the morning. OK, we are a bit further north than you, but at this time of year we only feed fondant. It is clean, easy to use, and NEVER causes robbing. The bees can use it even in the coldest weather when in tight cluster. We never even consider syrup as an option in February, as in normal conditions at this time of year they cannot work it other than sporadically, and we will not start with it until mid March at least. In a cold spring we can even be a month after that before using it. Syrup, other than the thickest 70%+ solids invert types, can give serious problems this early in the year. In our time we've seen everything from dysentry to brood failure (similar to EFB), and all have been down to syrup feeding too early. (Not something we are proud of, but have to admit to making errors in that way, sometimes several times before realising what we were doing wrong.) Once the timing is right, good LEAKPROOF hive top or frame feeders cause little trouble. Someone mentioned bee type as also significant, and I can certainly say that we have noticed that yellower bees seem to be far more persistent robbers than dark bees. Most of our bees are mongrels anyway so attributing this to specific races in our population would be potentially misleading. As regards robbing as a general topic, we have found that April and September/October are the trouble months. Too early/late for a honey flow, yet the colonies are active. Feeding has to be carried out with care at these times. Give them ALL something at the same time (at least all the strong and medium ones, you can get away with not feeding the small ones, but certainly NEVER feed the small and omit the strong). Small colonies should be protected by use of entrance reducers (even down to single bee way in extreme cases). Someone mentioned giving back wet supers, and that is something we noticed many years ago could cause the bees to go absolutely crazy with robbing and which we now never do. (Apart from the robbing there is also the question of workload in doing it, and increased wax moth activity in dry supers to contend with, plus one or two other important factors I won't go into as they could open up a whole new thread.) Get all the other factors right and time of day becomes of little importance. It is, of course, feasible in a hobbyist situation to be able to feed at dusk only, so if you see it as a help why not do it, but like one or two others who have posted on this subject, we just cannot do this. If we want to feed all our colonies in one working week we have to do 300 a day, which means that the two men are out from early morning till near dusk in spring to get it done. This seems to be a debate involving some entrenched opinions, but I guess the real thing in this is it depends how you do it. Murray -- Murray McGregor ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 17:16:33 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Robbed Out! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tom Elliott; I have been feeding 1:1 sugar syrup starting in January in Maryland to get queens laying for well over 40 years, and have never had any trouble. I have no idea where Marc Studebaker gets the idea that Ohio is too cold for feeding in February; but in my judgment, he is wrong. George Imirie - beekeeping since 1933 (67 years) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 06:52:21 -0500 Reply-To: mpalmer@together.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Michael Palmer Organization: French Hill Apiaries Subject: Re: neighbours (was Feeding at Dawn) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You are right Stan. I too sometimes get complaints in the early spring, but not from feeding. The bees looking for pollen, visit the dairy farms in the area. The farmer opens the doors to the barn, and the bees fly in. They work in the gutter, rolling up manure, and flying home with it. They can't remember that they came in the door, and try to go out through the closed windows(if the farmer can open the window at the top-no problem). When they take off from the gutter, they often bump into the cow's legs. This must tickle the cow, as she winds up doing the "bee bop." Quite humorous actually, but not all farmers agree. Stan Sandler wrote: > However, this > spring I did have some complaints from neighbours close to my winter yards > in the early spring before there was anything flowering and when the bees > were looking for pollen. > > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 07:55:19 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: FW: Varroa Test Comments: To: "sci.ag.bee" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Forwarded From: beekeeping@onelist.com Author: docbull Subject: NEW VARROA MITE FIELD TEST An easier, safer "for the bees" method for determining level of Mite infestation in your bees. Like so many other procedures and methods, you wonder why you didn't think of it yourself. Place a tablespoonful of confectionary sugar in a pint jar along with approximately 200 honeybees, close and shake vigorously, leave for several minutes, afterwards empty container onto a white paper. The bees will fly away and the mites will be left behind for easy indexing. A technique that should be used anytime you suspect an infestation exists. This procedures appeals to me, I never liked the idea of killing honeybees. ------- Don't know how well this works, but thought it worth passing on. allen ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 08:01:28 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: darn@FREENET.EDMONTON.AB.CA Subject: Re: Feeding bees at dawn In-Reply-To: <200002090855.DAA06634@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 9 Feb 2000, Murray McGregor wrote: > The use of contact feeders can also cause you a problem, as there is an > inevitable leakage every time the pail is inverted. Hi Murray: When I use inverted pail feeders, I carry an empty pail with me. I invert the full pail and put it on the empty one for about 10 seconds. The spillage is eliminated and the empty pail becomes a full pail after about 40 hives are fed. The leakage is minimized if the pails are filled nearly full. Best regards, Donald Aitken Edmonton Alberta Canada ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 09:07:13 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Hamilton Subject: Re: Varroa Test MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain This is documented by Marion Ellis in our last newsletter see http://ianrwww.unl.edu/ianr/entomol/beekpg/tidings/btid2000/btdjan00.htm Dave ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 08:57:29 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Gauthier Buddy J Subject: Unknown Bee Product MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I have a product named "STOP STING GAS". The instructions are: "For controlling stinging bees. Put 1 teaspoonful in burning smoker(DO NOT put on burning coals). The granules will burn rapidly making a gas which will knock out the bees." Half of the label is cut off and Onsted, MI is mentioned. I found a bee place in Onsted that said they thought that business is closed down and they knew nothing of the product. I've scoured the archives and only saw a brief mention of it. It said something about nitrites and this stuff does have the look and smell of ammonium nitrate, only milder. It didn't mention anything good or bad about using something to knock out bees except CO2 and it someone was questioning the use of it. I'm concerned about my safety and the safety of the bees. I'm interested in this product because I'm making my 1st attempt to remove a hive that is and has been residing under and at the corner of a house trailer for 6-8 months. I don't know if I want to continue this service, therefore I don't want to buy a vacuum or any other thing to extricate the bees. Will this product do the trick? Should I not attempt this? I know of no one locally that has bees; I have only you people. I just want the "freebees". Please e-mail my direct and the listserv. I'm currently using the digest. Buddy Gauthier Computer Systems Analyst / BeeKeeper Hobbyist Cameco Industries, Inc. Thibodaux, LA 70301 Phone: (504)435-4783 Fax: (504)435-4785 Email: T802273@deere.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 15:58:10 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Computer Software Solutions Ltd Subject: Feeding at dawn Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello All Thanks to everyone for their responses to my posts. The contributors break down into two schools of thought. One school of thought says feeding at dawn (or at any time during the day) is OK, subject to normal precautions, the other and equally strident view is 'on no account feed them except at dusk'. What puzzles me is how can highly experienced beekeepers differ on what to me, at any rate, appears to be a fundamental point?. I say this for the following reasons. If seems to me, that feeding bees causes them to be aware of the presence of the food initially but not of its location, and if they can fly (the non dusk and weather OK situation), the entire area up to about 100 metres from the hive will be searched. This seems to equate to their response to the 'round' dance. This is a fundamental behaviour pattern and never varies (is that so?). If they cannot fly (the dusk situation), it would seem reasonable that the nearest bees to the food, find it and pass on the exact location to their sisters by food transfer. Thus by morning all of the flying bees know where the food is, so there is no searching to be done. Thus, if the above arguments are correct, it would appear to me that feeding at dusk is far preferable. If on the other hand, there are flaws in the above, please let me know. I look forward to comments. Sincerely Tom Barrett 49 South Park Foxrock Dublin 18 Ireland ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 14:42:16 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: William Morong Subject: Re: Robbed Out! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Tom Elliott wrote: >I have read frequently over the years that you can not feed sugar syrup in cold >weather. However, here in Alaska I have been feeding sugar syrup continuously >through the winter, regardless of temperatures, for the past three years. At one point in my Crazy Cordovan problem I was feeding heavy syrup in the cold here in Maine using a top feeder, and the bees were readily eating it. Problem was that with lots of bees the syrup was actually quite warm and it began to ferment faster than it was being eaten. The bees got some diarrhea. If the feeder is very clean, the fermentation is not obvious by smell. I even tried hanging my unprotected nose over the feeder edge like "Kilroy", with hundreds of bees at my cheek, but could not smell the problem. Later tasting of the syrup did reveal an off taste. I changed to a small top feeder, then weaned the bees to soft sugar cakes and pollen substitute patties, all of which they gobble down, and so far so good. If the cakes are stacked in a box on the frame tops, the bees perforate them like Swiss cheese and eat several at once, remaining warm in the process. The point is that with enough bees it may not be outdoor temperature, but fermentation that makes a syrup feeding problem. Also, I'm abandoning wood in contact with syrup, as wood seems to promote fermentation spores. Plastic seems to work better. Merely roughing up plastic with coarse sandpaper gives the bees a foothold. Bill Morong ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 15:11:29 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Computer AND Apidictor MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" The other day Allen and I exchanged a few emails, mainly because I thought there was a typo in one of his submissions. Turns out what I thought was a typo was not, and the conversation should have taken place on-list. Unfortunately, I lost pieces of the conversation, but a summary follows. You wrote: >> How much US $ per hive you would spend - > ... I would think up to $3 per year per hive. Three dollars!? Did you drop a zero? I would be amazed if the electronics that have been tossed around could be PRODUCED for $3, let alone sold for that little. I imagine it would be more in the ballpark of twenty times your figure, more like $60. And only that if mass production kicked in. So, are you serious with your $3 figure? I witheld approval figuring it was a typo. /Aa >> So, are you serious with your $3 figure? > Yes, I think it is realistic, given what Jerry says if I understand him > correctly. Note that I said per hive per year, not per hive. Yes, the "per hive per year" did not pass me by. And you gave a hive figure of "200 minimum, 3000 maximum" which gives quite a broad range in what you're willing to shell out. I imagine one would need an absolute minimum of two "units" per yard for comparison of data to get any sort of meaningful indication of what's going on in that particular yard. One unit would be sufficient for your rustler concerns (bears and/or thieves) but for enviromental indications (flow evaluations) two units would be necessary to rule out the possibility that you have your equipment on an exceptional hive (either a gang buster or a dink). And even two units is a frugal estimate. > I envision something really quick and a bit dirty. I think my concepts of > differentiation against time are missed by everyone and instead people > think that absolute values are important. I think not. A +/- 20% > deviation from true would not matter at all -- if the offset were > reasonably consistent. Your description was clear. You don't envision a triple beam balance, a bathroom scale will suffice. Solid as a hockey puck and long lasting (lasting at least as long as it will take to ammortorize your costs down to $3/yr/hive) may be a hard bill to foot. My 3 year old 27in TV is starting to fritz out on me and it sits staticly in the comfort of my climate controlled living room. My SWAG of $60 per unit is what I imagine would be a price low enough for enough units to sell to make production worth while for producers. The spring balance hive stands that Dadant used to market got pulled because few sold. I bought a few in the close out sales, found them terrible inacurate but possibly within your +/- 20% deviation range and good indicators for ballpark weight gain or loss. Close out price was $12, I do not know what they sold for when they were being manufactured. But few beekeepers were willing to buy them. Electronics, with the possibility of cutting production costs provide a market for the big boys. Honey production costs are of little concern for those on the other end of the beekeeper scale. If the electronics price into the range that require large outlays to be ammotorized over years and balanced against honey production costs savings, few will sell to sideliners and VERY few (if any) will sell to hobbiests. Commercial operations are the top of the pyramid. Volume sales required for mass production costs benefits will have to include sideliners and hobbiests. Go past the target $60 price it's doubtful the bulk of beekeepers will buy. Frankly, I doubt many will buy at that price. And this just examines equipment costs, leaving out data collection subscription fees. I expect we will always have the economy of scale. A single unit able to serve many hives at a low enough cost requiring beekeeper visits to beeyards will appeal to the the bulk of the pyramid. Multiple units, networked for data collection and delivery to a central location, at a higher price will only appeal to the apex beekeepers. Perhaps there is or will be a manufacturer who can/will server the entire pyramid with a line of products, but there again, multiple products will compete with benefits of mass producing a single line. I have problems envisioning this ever being less than a luxury item and doubt we'll ever realize benefits of mass production. It will be nice to proven wrong, this is a crow I'd love to eat! /Aa >>> At this point Jerry Bromenshenk added: Hey guys, I agree. A question for you is how many at how many locations would be needed to adequately support a several thousand hive operation. 1 per yard? 2 per yard? Every yard? Some yards? I'd think that you would know where the critical locations are in a big operation. Which ones are first to get a flow or undergo a shortage. As per the backyard or hobbiest, some would buy the expensive brand just for the fun of it (just like photographers). As per those of you who make a living from bees, we have to be able to produce the units at a recoverable cost (you couldn't afford not to have it). How much does it cost to drive a truck and crew to the wrong location, miss the first days of a flow, get there after they have started down the starvation path, got nailed by the spray plane (2 weeks earlier so that all residues and evidence of the event other than piles of dead bees is gone). >>>> End of summary <<<< I apologize for the snippets here, but I didn't want this to pass BEE-L by. It would be a personal thrill to see a product come to market with some help from these discussions. Sincerely, Aaron ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 18:50:21 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Robbed out MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The brown streaks on the hive are a sign of dysentery, not necessarily of Nosema. Bees can have dysentery without Nosema and vice versa. However, dysentery is a very efficient way of spreading nosema if it is present. You could make a microscope slide of the faecal matter from the streaks and examine for Nosema before treating. It is usually not a good idea to treat for an ailment that is not present. Dysentery is usually associated with stress and you have described how the colony has been stressed. I think you are not far wrong in your suggested remedy. Reduce the volume of the hive; secure from predators and feed. What you feed is governed by strength of the colony and the climate where you are. As you are relatively inexperienced ask a local beekeeper what he would feed at this time of year. Good luck Chris Slade ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 11:06:52 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Feeding at dawn In-Reply-To: <200002091613.LAA18151@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > What puzzles me is how can highly experienced beekeepers differ on what to > me, at any rate, appears to be a fundamental point?. Well, there has been little but assumptions throughout this discussion. Frankly -- to start with -- we don't even know what you are feeding or how or why, although some apparently assumed they knew. I responded, but you'll notice I did not ever even try address your question, because it is simply not answerable in the form it was asked. I merely directed you to the previous discussions, so you could compare the situations and experiences of others to your own -- a situation you alone know; so far, at least. The answers to any question can hardly be better than the question itself. So far you have given almost no information. As for the general term 'feed bees', what are we to assume? Feed them what? Pollen, water, honey, syrup, fondant, dry sugar? And how? Maybe if you fill us in on the details we will be more inclined to agree. Even after a fair number of posts have been made on the topic, I still do not have any definite information as to what you were contemplating or what you did, and I am not willing to guess, since I am bound to be wrong in some significant way. It would be interesting to analyse what happened. How about telling us. In detail? > If seems to me, that feeding bees causes them to be aware of the presence of > the food initially but not of its location, and if they can fly (the non > dusk and weather OK situation), the entire area up to about 100 metres from > the hive will be searched. This seems to equate to their response to the > 'round' dance. This is a fundamental behaviour pattern and never varies (is > that so?). This is highly speculative and theoretical, and the subject of a current raging debate right here on BEE-L. In fact you've posted into some of the topics yourself.... allen ----- See if your questions have been answered in over a decade of discussions. BEE-L archives & more: http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/Bee-l.htm Search sci.agriculture.beekeeping at http://www.deja.com/ or visit http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee to access both on the same page. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 17:14:32 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: BeeCrofter@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Computer AND Apidictor MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The day computers and microelectronics go into the day to day management of hives in the field is the day every bee related piece of equipment and my 33 hives get sold cheap. Faster is not better, newer is not better, different is not better. Better is better. The economy of scale may be the direction an industry with tens of thousands of hives to manage may have to go but I would rather flip a hamburger. Fries with that Sir? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 07:12:11 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "joel m. johnson" Subject: cleansing flights MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable tofay feb 9 the temp in the sun was approx. 50 to 55 degree f. but there = was a cold wind at times. late in the afternoon i noticed an alarming = number of dead bees on the snow approx. 20 ft in front of my hives,, i = really think i may have a problem. can anyone help...=20 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 19:37:26 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Anonymous Ok Subject: Re: flowers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit i understande there are certain plants (flowers)that may help in our varrola mite problems . Is this correct or is it fiction. jim huff ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 16:26:06 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tom Elliott Subject: Re: Robbed Out! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit George,, > I have been feeding 1:1 sugar syrup starting in January in Maryland to get > queens laying for well over 40 years, and have never had any trouble. I am certainly glad to hear I am not alone. The continuous feeding (I also add pollen supplement, as I mentioned) is to keep the queens laying beginning about the first of the year. Very much in line with your experiences. Normally southern queens do not readily lay in our long dark winters. Perhaps I should add for purposes of fuller explanation, I am also buying queens from The Bee Works in Ontario, Canada. That also may be a part of my newly found success in wintering. Tom, (new beekeeper only 17 years-or is it 18? I lose track) -- "Test everything. Hold on to the good." (1 Thessalonians 5:21) Tom Elliott Chugiak, Alaska U.S.A. beeman@gci.net ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 08:36:24 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Roger Flanders Subject: Re: Computer AND Apidictor MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "BeeCrofter" wrote yesterday: >The day computers and microelectronics go into the day to day management >of hives in the field is the day every bee related piece of equipment and my>33 hives get sold cheap... Knowing from your previous posts how conscientious you are about your beekeeping, let me be the first to make an offer on those 33 hives. I'm just a hobbyist with 5 hives now, but all the discussion about remote sensing devices is fascinating to someone like me who is forced to keep his bees 89 miles from his home. I try to check on my hives every week, year-round, but some weeks that is impossible. I would love to be able to check on my bees anytime with just a few mouse-clicks. My only issue would be cost. --Rog Flanders, Nebraska, USA ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 08:01:17 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: The Future is Not what it Used to Be In-Reply-To: <14.d2765d.25d3a4f4@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > You know Allen, I have been sort of following this remote sensing string. > One thing that strikes me- you are saying $3 per hive which isn't to say you > need 1 device per colony- you may be able to gather accurate and useful > enough data by just having 1 or 2 devices per yard. Some measures are > certainly so variable between colonies that you need to sample a large subset > of the colonies to be accurate- others, well, the sample could be very sample. This is true, and a good point. And it is typical of the responses I've been getting. everyone associates the cost on a per hive basis. It's my fault, I guess, because I started out thinking that way. Everyone *except* the people actually developing systems have howled at the costs I stipulated. People said I would have to compromise or pay more. Or both. What I said in that post with the wish list is what I would like, and what I would buy outright without any second thought. Today. Now. For cash. And it is also what I expect could get 50% market penetration among medium and large-sized beekeepers in no time. Anything less would require some head scratching and have to fight for acceptance. Having been a marketer of one sort or another for most of my life, I realise that usually new systems come out at a high cost and get gradual acceptance, then decline in price and increase in acceptance. I also am aware that there are very notable exceptions. I am also noticing that recently there is a new paradigm: products come out free and stay free or add premium services for which the customer/members gladly pay. What is to say that a sponsor might not want to own such a service and provide it as a service to customers or members? Anyhow, I'm not counting on that. Having been in electronics and also having been a consumer, I can see how little it takes to make things that are pretty smart. Not only that, having been around for a few years, I can see the rate at which the price of every such thing is falling. Not only does information want to be free, but hardware and even services are headed that way too. I doubt it will get there in my lifetime, but the trend is obvious. Sure, I could settle for a system that polls only a portion of the hives, but as soon as one hive or one yard is not individually monitored, then I am riding two horses. either I am on the new system, or I am not. Partial monitoring would mean no individual hive info, and thus would only give a very gross indication, and be worth a fraction of what complete monitoring would be worth. It would still be useful, but not nearly as attractive -- or indispensable. Seeing as the major cost, in my view, is the link from each yard to the central collector and the processing, *not* the individual hive hook-up and transducers, it would be folly to go to all that trouble to hook up a hive or two in a yard and not finish the job. The partial solution would cost over 90% of doing the whole thing right -- and not be nearly as attractive. I still stick to my predictions as to cost and function and expect to see some large scale trial systems within three years. I volunteer to be a guinea pig, BTW. Or invest. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe it'll take $6U$ per hive per year, not $3. Or maybe even ten to start. At ten, I'm definitely out. I don't even need to think about that. Each increase in cost will reduce interest, make the project harder and limit participation. And since the major cost is more likely to be *per yard*, not per hive, due to the fact that one uplink will be required whether there is one hive or a hundred at a site, maybe I should amend my price to be $120US per year *per yard*. That comes to $1200US per yard per 10 year lifetime. Am I way out of line, Jerry? allen ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 10:30:06 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Lipscomb, Al" Subject: Re: Computer AND Apidictor MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > The day computers and microelectronics go into the day to day management >of hives in the field is the day every bee related piece of equipment and my >33 hives get sold cheap. > Faster is not better, newer is not better, different is not better. Better >is better. The economy of scale may be the direction an industry with tens of >thousands of hives to manage may have to go but I would rather flip a >hamburger. > Fries with that Sir? Computers and microelectronics are not the enemy of quality and enjoyment. They are a tool. But I can see many ways that technology can help the beekeepers, even in indirect ways. We use these new technologies in everyday life, even without knowing that they are there. Computers are in our cars, our homes and around us everywhere we go. My new oven (not the microwave) has a computer that controls time and temperature. It does more than the mechanical equipment it replaces, is less expensive to make, is easier to use and bakes bread better. The last is the greates test, it allows the tool function better. Do you drive (or ride in) a car made since 1990 (and some after 1983)? Then you are using a computer and microelectronics in your day to day driving. Have a digital watch or clock? Use a cell phone? When they have a PDA (Personal Digital Assistant) built into a cell phone and can access the internet resources (such as this list) while in the bee yard are you going to pass this by? Do you use an electric fence around a bee yard? It may well have microelectronics in it, if it has a solar battery charger attached then you are high tech already. If you are buying your hive parts then spending about $5US for the "extra" stuff in the outer cover may not seem so bad, if it does what you want it to do. Until then lets just wait and see. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 15:48:44 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Joe Riley Subject: Funding issues MIME-Version: 1.0 Dear Moderator, I offer the following comments in amplification of Jerry Bromenshenk's recent note about harmonic radar and bees. The hand held 'skier' units to which Jerry refers are often loosely called radars, but in fact they are actually harmonic direction finders - they tell you roughly in what direction the target is, but crucially, NOT its range; (RADAR = RAdio Direction And Ranging). So to locate a target you have to walk (or run!) along the direction of strongest signal until you can actually see it. By contrast, the system that we designed and built, and used with Beth Capaldi is a true, scanning radar that gives instantaneous position fixes (target range and bearing) once every three seconds, and so yields dynamic and geometrically accurate records of the insects' actual flight paths. You don't have to guess where a bee is when it's out of sight, you KNOW its actual position (and ground speed). The maximum range of our radar is currently about 900m, so it gives coverage over a 1.8km diameter circle, i.e. over an area of about 2.5 square kilometers. We first described it in 1996 (Riley et al. "Tracking bees with harmonic radar", Nature 379, 29-30) An interesting summary of radar and bee studies is given in Norman Carreck's 1993 article in Bee World, 80 (3), 124-131. Harmonic radar has proved particularly useful in investigating flight by bumble bees: (Riley et al 1999, "Compensation for the wind by bumble bees", Nature 400, 126); (Osborne et al., 1999 "A landscape-scale study of foraging range and constancy, using harmonic radar" J. Appl. Ecol 36, 519-533). We have also used it successfully to track night-flying moths (Riley et al. 1998, "Harmonic radar as a means of tracking the pheromone-finding and pheromone-following flight of male moths", J. Insect. Behav. 11, 287-296). For a more general overview of radar entomology, see Alistair Drake's excellent Radar Entomology Web Site (http://www.ph.adfa.edu.au/a-drake/trews/). Jerry correctly draws attention to the need to keep the weight of the transponder as low as possible, and we have produced operational devices that weigh just less than one milligram (equivalent to about a single grain of sugar) with this in mind. However, these lightweight transponders were mechanically rather fragile, and were often bent and damaged when being fitted to the bees. It was for this practical reason that we often choose to use the heavier and more robust versions described in Beth's paper. Unfortunately, all our tranponders are 16mm long (but about 1 tenth of the optimal required for the hand-held direction finders), so (as Jerry points out) they have to be removed before returning bees can actually re-enter their hive. This is inconvenient, but has not proved an impossible obstacle in our studies so far. -- Prof. Joe Riley, M.A., D.Phil., FIEE, C.Eng. NRI Radar Unit, University of Greenwich, Malvern, UK Tel: +44-(0)1684-582193 Fax: +44-(0)1684-582984 jriley@nriradar.demon.co.uk / J.R.Riley@greenwich.ac.uk ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 13:17:49 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dennis van Engelsdorp Subject: Master Beekeeper Program Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Cornell University's Dyce Laboratory for Honey Bee Research is pleased to announce the courses being offered in the year 2000. For more information visit: http://instruct1.cit.cornell.edu/courses/beekeeping/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 19:45:22 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Rex Boys Subject: Early Feeding MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Where I live in middle England, oilseed rape is in full bloom by the first week in May. To get the benefit, that is when I need my maximum foraging force and this means getting the queen to start laying by feeding in mid-February. I have been doing this successfully for 15 years and the only problems occurred in those years when May was wet and all those bees were unemployed! (Everything in beekeeping is a gamble, though - and I bet it will go on being so when you have got all these marvellous inventions that you think are going to reduce the odds!) There are certain constraints to be observed. 1) The food should be half strength syrup for immediate consumption, not the saturated solution you give them in autumn for storage. Candy does not have the required effect, either and it does not matter what stores they already have. You have to convince the colony that here is a source of fresh nectar. Am I right in thinking that a bee can only digest liquid and it has to go out and fetch water in order to dissolve candy? If so, you might as well save them the trouble by dissolving it for them. 2) It must be a contact feeder. If the bees have to go up and over to find the syrup, they will just not bother. The quantity I feed is 1 litre a fortnight until they don't seem to need it. Small quantities in big feeders leak so you need a supply of 1 litre feeders. We used the 1 kg. plastic tubs that you buy from the supermarket containing low fat spread and similar commodities. The lid is indented by one bee space so all you have to do is punch about a dozen holes. 2a) Here's a tip to reduce spillage. Hold the tub up in front of you using both hands, fingers on top, thumbs underneath. Press lightly on the lid with the fingers and gradually reduce the pressure as you roll the tub upside down. Do this, holding it over the feed hole in the crown board so any small spillage goes into the brood box and lets them know the feeder is there. I do a similar manoeuvre with big feeders, with hands on top and the whole thing pressed against my chest. This procedure should be rehearsed with plain water several times. I was lucky in my bekeeping because the local farmers grew autumn and spring sown rape and ditto beans; hence in good years I averaged 100 lbs per hive with the all time record of 297lbs for ordinary national hives with single queens. From 12 hives I supplied 6 village stores within a 5 - mile radius and was regarded as almost commercial. Living in an island where it is impossible to get more than 72 miles from the sea, I have difficulty in visualising the circumstances of some other members of this group; last week, somebody mentioned having hives 150 miles away which is incredible. No wonder he cannot do the 8-day inspections that are usual over here throughout the swarming season. For most British beekeepers, remote indication means signalling from the bottom of the garden to the house. Looking back over this posting I seem to have mixed up past and present tense. That is because I have not quite adapted to having sold off the bees 2 years ago. Any way, the backache has gone! Happy Honey Harvesting. Rex Boys. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 08:52:25 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lewis Subject: Re: The Future is Not what it Used to Be MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >I still stick to my predictions as to cost and function and expect to see some >large scale trial systems within three years. I volunteer to be a guinea pig, >BTW. Or invest. I hope that someone would pick up this ball and start running. I can see some real benefits to a well designed system (remotely monitored or not). If something was to developed "within three years" it will most likely be a labor of love. Regards, John Lewis ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 08:42:39 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lewis Subject: Computer AND Apidictor: Poll results MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, We have some very revealing results from the hive monitoring poll. Out of about 1000 readers of Bee-L there were only three responses: one from a commercial operator, and 2 from hobbyists. To summarize Commercial - $3/ hive; 200 - 3000 hives $600 to $9000 per year Hobbyist $50/hive; 10 hives $500 Hobbyist $50/ hive; 30 hives $1500 Below is a comment about the poll from a company representative who had privately expressed an interest in developing equipment that would meet some of the wish list requirements. "well, I guess that ends any question about whether an electronic hive monitor should be designed." My thanks to you that have responded to this poll. John Lewis ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 13:50:15 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Scott Moser Subject: New Queen? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings all, Such a wonderful day here in St. Louis, MO. Temperature was flirting with the 70 degree mark, so I thought it would be a good day to make a check of some hives. Two of the 3 hives I checked today had a good amount of bees, and a few eggs. I didnt find any brood, but this is theorist week of warm weather, so I figured the queen was just beginning to lay again. The 3rd hive was a big surprise. I opened it to find it very full of bees, probably a good 12 frames filled! In addition, there was still quite a bit of stored honey, and they had even eaten about 7 pounds of hard candy! I looked all over for the marked queen that I put in there last July. I did not find her, nor any eggs, but I did find an unmarked queen! The last time I saw the marked queen was in October. We have had a very mild winter this year. It didnt really turn cold here until after the first of the new year. It appears to me that sometime since October, they raised a new queen. Is this possible? The hive in question had several drones in it as well. What are the chances that she is a virgin? What do I do? Thanks for the help. Feel free to contact me via e mail at: s_moser@mailcity.com Scott Moser Visit the Jefferson County Beekeepers Association web site at: http://JeffersonCoBeekeepers.homestead.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 08:58:18 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lewis Subject: Re: The Future is Not what it Used to Be MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As a reality check... An analogous system to remote hive monitoring is remote weather monitoring. What is currently on the market and at what costs? My apologies for not doing the foot work on these two questions. John Lewis ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 09:16:29 +1300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Nick Wallingford Subject: NZ AFB methodology... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Some of the list readers were in Apimondia late last year. I've just added two of the talks delivered by New Zealanders to the NZ Beekeeping site. Cliff Van Eaton's talk on Controlling AFB Without Drugs - New Zealand's Approach (http://www.beekeeping.co.nz/beecult.htm) and Murray Reid's talk New Zealand's Pest Management Strategy - How it Works in Practice (http://www.beekeeping.co.nz/pmswork.htm) with both make interesting reading, even for countries that do use antibiotics for AFB control. Nick Wallingford nickw@beekeeping.co.nz ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 14:14:10 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Automated Beekeeping. In-Reply-To: <85256881.0055FE4F.00@sctmnot10.sctcorp.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This came privately, so I am quoting the whole thing, with comments... > All of the cost relating to the beehive data acquisition is revolving > around a single operator financing the cost of the automation > themselves and supporting it with revenue obtained by selling the > honey. I have no idea how cooperative the commercial guys are when > it comes to sharing ideas/data (If their anything like fisherman, my > idea stinks!). If all the remote hive monitoring devices send their > data to a central clearinghouse for the data. This would provide the > volume of wireless communication needed to allow for negotiation of > wireless communication contracts (I think this idea was tossed > around..) > > Now, If a clearinghouse exists which contains all apiductor data, > there will be a broad range of data from many geographic locations - > many more than a single operator could handle. Plus, with data come > the power to analyse - and the more data, the more accurate or > comprehensive the analysis can be. If you had 10 apiductor locations > within 100 miles - that is all you can see - BUT if you had access to > the data of 100 apiductor locations within a 200 mile radius you could > probably anticipate even proactively instead of reactively maybe even > giving 2-3 days lead time for your hives. > > It seems if you only looked at your 10 hives, you wouldn't know the > flow started until one or two of YOUR hives gained weight. But if > you had access to data from Jim 8 miles away, and his hives start > gaining weight, yours 'theoretically' will begin gaining shortly. > Granted, a little more knowledge is needed besides 'the hives 8 miles > away'... > > Now, that is a big plus for the commercial guys - but - here is where a > secondary revenue source might appear - there may be 3-5 commercial > operations working a large chunk of geography, But how many hobbyists > exist within that area? How many hoists would like access to that > data so they could prepare/be aware of flows? Using the internet, a > for fee service could be established that allows people to subscribe > to the Apiductor System and obtain data and see the current trends or > review historical information, etc, etc... I would bet that there are > a lot of new hobbyists who would be willing to pay $20 - $40 per year > for this type of information. > > There are many business models that can be applied to the pricing, but > if the market was there for x number of subscriptions and the cost of > maintaining the site was known - the break even point or estimated > revenue could be determined. > > The last thing to do is call the company IBees.Com, show lousy > quarterly reports, have an IPO and retire in Florida. :-) FWIW, I don't name anyone who sends me private email without asking, if I do quote it publicly, and I only do that with discretion. This is a really good post, because it shows that 1+1=5 sometimes. I have mentioned that maybe the cost would be nil to beekeepers, if we had a sponsor who could benefit. I was thinking of honey marketers, co-ops, and bee supply houses. They aren't that rich, or generous, or forward-thinking for that matter. BUT, Maybe, Jerry's current sponsors would like access to our sites and the data that could be found in the countryside we cover and be glad to get their data in return for the tiny bit that interests us in return for our spotting their rigs around the country and maintaining them. Who knows? As for the sharing of info, I can see some problems with beekeepers not wanting their competitors or customers looking over their shoulders and seeing their secrets, but that does not mean the idea has no merit. Many would not mind, or would ask for some level of masking to conceal some locales or excessively personal identifying data. This is not fatal to the idea. Co-operation is an idea thats time that has come. Many of us share our financial data willingly to help create consensus research data for benchmarking our industry so that young guys and gals can borrow money to get into it. They will be our competitors, but also our friends and best customers when we want to sell out. Many of us teach courses and work on web pages to give away our hard won secrets. Folly? I think not. What is the point of selfishly accumulating things in a world which more and more values people by what they give than what they have? As the writer showed above, by sharing the data judiciously, we all have far more to share than if we kept to ourselves. allen ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 14:40:50 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: New Queen? In-Reply-To: <200002102002.PAA20307@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I looked all over for the marked queen that I put in there last July. I did > not find her, nor any eggs, but I did find an unmarked queen! The last time > I saw the marked queen was in October... That does not mean that she was not being superseded and that a daughter was not laying beside her somewhere. This is common. allen ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 14:40:52 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Computer AND Apidictor: Poll results In-Reply-To: <200002102001.PAA20231@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Below is a comment about the poll from a company representative who had > privately expressed an interest in developing equipment that would meet some > of the wish list requirements. > > "well, I guess that ends any question about whether an electronic hive > monitor should be designed." Not sure what that means. What kind of indication would such a company representative be looking for to proceed? I know that some are working on it right now. 2 or 3% responses on such a survey are pretty typical, especially when such an open-ended question is asked. What I get from it is that there is a lot of money out there, and real interest. Hobbyists seem happy to spend big bucks, and there are a lot of them. Commercials need to watch their outflows, and will wait until they see if the system works and pays, then it will be like Swinger forklifts; everyone will want one. As for whether it should be designed, I think that Jerry told us that it already is designed, and in spades. The only questions are: 1.)is it ready for market, and 2.) can a competitor can design one better and cheaper, 3.) how many features to leave in, 4.) and how best to get it to market. There is also always room for improvement in terms of ruggedness, convenience, communications, cost, and reporting software... allen ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 16:11:56 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jerry J Bromenshenk Subject: Re: The Future is Not what it Used to Be In-Reply-To: <200002102003.PAA20375@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 08:58 AM 2/11/00 +1200, you wrote: A full featured, solar-powered, digital weather station with 400ft of wireless transmitting capability is about $1000 U.S. Bought one last week. A wireless thermometer from Radio Shack about $60 for receiving station and remote sensor. Additional wireless sensors, about $20-30 each. >As a reality check... > >An analogous system to remote hive monitoring is remote weather monitoring. >What is currently on the market and at what costs? > >My apologies for not doing the foot work on these two questions. > >John Lewis > > Jerry J. Bromenshenk, Ph.D. Director, DOE/EPSCoR & Montana Organization for Research in Energy The University of Montana-Missoula Missoula, MT 59812-1002 E-Mail: jjbmail@selway.umt.edu Tel: 406-243-5648 Fax: 406-243-4184 http://www.umt.edu/biology/more http://www.umt.edu/biology/bees ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 17:00:20 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Early Feeding MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Good comments! I thoroughly enjoyed the reading You are absolutely correct that the syrup must be THIN like nectar to get the queen laying, and bees get water to dilute candy or fondant. Also the feed has to be in CONTACT with the bees for them to use it. Some of our U.S. beekeepers have out apiaries 200 miles apart. Now in my 68th year of beekeeping, when younger, I had 4 apiary sites and two of them were 100 miles from my home apiary. That was done to get two different honeys, black locust and holly in one, and tulip poplar and blackberry in the other. Have a fine year. George Imirie ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 17:35:49 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: BEE NAVIGATION MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Some years ago when I did the RYA Day Skipper's Course (small boat handling and coastal navigation) I was taught that one should use every means available to find where you are and where you are going. Maybe bees take the same attitude. Chris Slade ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 19:05:12 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Russell Subject: apiductor viability I thought I'd put my two cents in about the economic viability of a remote hive monitoring device from a commercial beekeeper's standpoint. It's almost worhtless from an economic view. It might be fun to look at, but its not going to make or save you any money. When a commercial honey producer goes out to super at the beginning of a flow he has to give the bees enough room for at least two to three weeks because that's the earliest he could ever get back to them. After you've made the first go-around you should probably go back and give at least a quick look-see just because it's the thing to do. And since you're going, it doesn't take much more effort to bring along aload of supers. I could see some hobbyist and research interest bit not much action from the commercial side. Respectfully submitted, Bill Russell (the glass is half empty guy) Eustis, Fl. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 00:27:11 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Computer Software Solutions Ltd Subject: Feeding at dawn Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello All Thanks to Allen Dick for his post. I will attempt to deal with the points which Allen has raised and for which I thank him. Allen's questions and a restatement by him of my earlier points (where appropriate) are preceded by >> or > , my replies follow underneath. >> What puzzles me is how can highly experienced beekeepers differ on what to >> me, at any rate, appears to be a fundamental point?. > >Well, there has been little but assumptions throughout this discussion. > Frankly -- to start with -- we don't even know what you are feeding or how or >why, although some apparently assumed they knew. > I was feeding 1:1 syrup - 1 litre of water to 1 kilo of sugar, in a 1 litre container inverted over the crown board (inner cover). The reason for feeding is to get the queen laying early so as to build up the colony for an early flow. >The answers to any question can hardly be better than the question itself. I do not understand this. Perhaps it is a philosophical comment which has gone over my head, but I would have thought that an answer to any question would at least have been a development of the question. >As for the general term 'feed bees', >what are we to assume? Feed them what? Pollen, water, honey, syrup, fondant, >dry sugar? And how? Maybe if you fill us in on the details we will be more >inclined to agree. I fed the bees as stated above 1:1 - sugar syrup - in 1 litre containers inverted over the crown boards (inner covers). >> If seems to me, that feeding bees causes them to be aware of the presence of >> the food initially but not of its location, and if they can fly (the non >> dusk and weather OK situation), the entire area up to about 100 metres from >> the hive will be searched. This seems to equate to their response to the >> 'round' dance. This is a fundamental behaviour pattern and never varies (is >> that so?). > >This is highly speculative and theoretical, and the subject of a current raging >debate right here on BEE-L. The answer given above by Allen seems to me to contradict or at least to question Von Frisch. Sincerely Tom Barrett 49 South Park Foxrock Dublin 18 Ireland ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 01:12:45 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Computer Software Solutions Ltd Subject: Apistan/Bayvarol Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello All The debate on the use of Bayvarol/Apistan versus ecologically benign treatments for varroa has proceeded apace since the mite has appeared in various parts of the world. Many claims have been made for various non-acaricide treatments and many of these treatments have failed the tests required. I would like to pose a simple question. Can any body or hopefully many persons tell us that they have managed to use non Bayvarol/Apistan controls on their bees over the past number of years and that they can state that their bee hives have enjoyed continual health.? Sincerely Tom Barrett 49 South Park Foxrock Dublin 18 Ireland ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 15:41:05 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: BeeCrofter@AOL.COM Subject: computer /apidictor Comments: To: LipscombA@hsn.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yes there is a computer in my truck. The benefit is I can no longer make my own repairs as it requires dealership diagnostic tools at 60$ per hour. Digital watches ? Kids today cannot read a clock with hands. I don't wear a watch instead I have time. Personal digital assistant? So my employer can invade my personal time . Or my customers can expect me to conform to unrealistic time frames. Computers in the beehive.? Well Son you only opened 86 hives today and did not make quota, I am afraid we have to let you go. So in my somewhat luddite opinion it ain't all an improvement. BF Skinner would like it though ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 20:31:55 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Marc Studebaker Subject: Re: Early Feeding MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit George Imirie Wrote: > >You are absolutely correct that the syrup must be THIN like nectar to get the >queen >laying, and bees get water to dilute candy or fondant. > My comment not to feed syrup in February was in response to an inexperienced beekeeper from Ohio who wanted to feed a small cluster of bees with a boardman entrance feeder. I live on the Ohio and Indiana line and our weather has been ranging from -10F to +10F. If he indeed has a small cluster that is starving in this climate I doubt they will make it. My experience with feeding thin syrup in weather where bees cannot fly and probably won't for over a month is that it adds moisture to the hive and gives them dysentery. Also when you feed thin syrup, pollen must be given or they will suffer from lack of protein. As Allen pointed out you can feed anytime if needed provided the right type of feed and circumstances. This may be the differences in our climate this time of the year. I assume that George feeds thin syrup when cleansing flights can be made. If thin syrup can be fed this early in our year I would appreciate comments from others that do this in cold climates. Maybe I will learn something. Marc Studebaker Geneva, IN ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 14:39:23 -0800 Reply-To: jslavett@worldnet.att.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jeffrey Lavett Subject: Re: Poppy/ Hazlenut Pollen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Papaver orientale in Latin; the seed packet calls it Asian poppy. The bees love them much better than the California poppy. I hope they aren't also becoming addicts, because I can't afford to send them to Betty Ford. Keith B. Forsyth wrote: > > Hello: > The references sited do not list Asian poppy. > Do you have the Latin name? > If so, I can check again. > Keith ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2094 23:03:16 -0800 Reply-To: JamesCBach Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: JamesCBach Subject: Apistan/Bayvoral MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tom Barrett asks if BEE-Lers can tell us that they have managed to use non Bayvarol/Apistan controls and that their bees have enjoyed continual health. I think that many on the list have claimed success with non chemical treatments. I know of many, probably hundreds who have claimed success with non chemical treatments of various substances. Unfortunately, I don't know of a single one of them that did any control study of the substances. I do know that most of them only reported success in the first year of use of the new material, and after a heavy loss the previous year. This is to be expected. I even called several commercial beekeepers around the country who had been reported to have had success with non chemical treatments. In the second and third year of use of their treatment, I was told that they had 25-50 percent losses each year. These losses were as high as would have been expected if they had not used any treatment. Can we say the bee colonies have enjoyed continual health? No. We don't even know how to measure colony health. It is my opinion that we only visually assess colony condition, not its health. James C. Bach jcbach@yvn.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 10:29:16 +0000 Reply-To: NRIRadar Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: NRIRadar Subject: Funding issues MIME-Version: 1.0 The Norman Carreck article in Bee World which I referred to in my amplification of Jerry Bromenshenk's comments on radar, should be dated 1999 not 1993. -- -- Prof. Joe Riley, M.A., D.Phil., FIEE, C.Eng. NRI Radar Unit, University of Greenwich, Malvern, UK Tel: +44-(0)1684-582193 Fax: +44-(0)1684-582984 jriley@nriradar.demon.co.uk / J.R.Riley@greenwich.ac.uk ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 08:13:25 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Mitchell Subject: Re: New Queen? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/10/00 3:19:41 PM, smoser@RURALCOM.NET writes: <> Among the possibilites, they could have already have raised the queen in October, and both queens were in the hive the last time you checked. The unmarked fresh virgin or recently mated queen would have been smaller than usual. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 08:20:26 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Lackey, Raymond" Subject: Computer AND Apidictor MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Having worked to get cellular extended along Interstates in the west, and vacationing from Interstate 80 up through the Rockys all the way up to Calgary, I know that cellular does not cover the whole land mass of US/Canada. For the commercial/migratory beekeepers: Are you covered by terrestrial cellular where you have yards? Are you covered by terrestrial Bi-directional paging where you have yards? I limit this to terrestrial because satellite is generally an order of magnitude more expensive for uplink data. You may want to respond privately to minimize traffic on the list on this issue. Thanks Ray Lackey Raymond J. Lackey Sweet Pines Apiary web page: http://www.tianca.com/tianca2.html email home: lackeyray@cleanweb.net ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Feb 1994 23:28:05 PST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: T & M Weatherhead Subject: Remote hive monitoring MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bill Russell wrote > I thought I'd put my two cents in about the economic viability of a remote > hive monitoring device from a commercial beekeeper's standpoint. It's almost > worhtless from an economic view. It might be fun to look at, but its not > going to make or save you any money. This may be the case in the USA but in Australia there is certainly a case to be made for remote hive monitoring as a tool for the commercial beekeeper. To this end, a research project was carried out on this several years ago and there was certainly interest from the commercial beekeeper. There has been nothing done since and reading Jerry's comments, it seems we need do no more here except adapt Jerry's work. As well as monitoring hives for weight gain, we have cases where bees have to be watered and water levels can be monitored remotely and save a round trip of several thousand kilometres and save the bees if something has happened to the waterers. It can be used as a rain monitor. Beekeepers in Australia work areas that are a long way from an official rain gauge and with our storms, it can pour rain in one area and 5 kilometres away it can be bone dry. We had the usual jokes about tricking beekeepers by placing a large rock on his hive that was monitoring weight to make him think he had a honey flow on and make him rush out with supers. Where are the economics? Fuel here cost around 75 cents a litre for diesel. That would be just over US$2 a gallon. In some places it is higher so any saving of fuel makes economic sense and of course there is the saving on wear and tear on your vehicle. Also time is saved but I suppose unless you can use the saved time profitabily then it is not worth anything. So here in Australia there is certainly a case to be made for remote monitoring to be economically viable. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 07:46:50 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Haley, Patrick A." Subject: Re: Early Feeding - Ohio hive #2 DOA MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Thanks one and all for all your help but, after inspecting the hive in question the other reasonably warm day, ~50 deg, all were dead. So...no need to feed! I've started up the deep freeze in the barn and the supers are going in until the unit can be re-populated in April. There were still about 41/2 - 5 frames of honey left in two deeps, mostly outside top. I discovered the hive had varroa late last summer so, after removing supers first week of September, I treated with Apistan 9/4-10/14. This was my most productive hive last year with a seemingly strong and healthy population. I'm convinced that this was brought on by my allowing the bees to clean up wet supers which started robbing...NEVER AGAIN! So far it has been my experience that beekeepers in general (especially the ones I've met and/or conversed with via this list) are some of the friendliest, most open , people I have ever had the pleasure of interacting with...this seems especially true of the most experienced in the trade (George! Loyd!...). Thanks. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 07:15:10 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Computer AND Apidictor In-Reply-To: <200002111332.IAA18661@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I know that cellular does not cover the whole land mass of > US/Canada. For the commercial/migratory beekeepers: > Are you covered by terrestrial cellular where you have yards? Yes, we have good blanket coverage for the most part, and we are in some pretty remote areas. There are a few yards that area bit marginal due to being in gullies, however, I think a high gain yagi or dish, or even a small tower or pole would get coverage in our marginal areas and might be permitted for a fixed base dedicated to telemetry. In addition to cellular and paging, there are commercial radio communication suppliers that rent time on their private VHF and UHF repeaters pretty well everywhere in Western Canada. Any large farmer with several people involved or oil company service person around here has VHF walkie talkies and mobile units in addition to cell phones. Moreover amateur VHF and UHF voice and packet repeaters blanket Alberta. Whether or not they could be used would be a judgement call. In the experimental stages, I think it might be justified and permitted. Add to that the amateur and commercial satellites, and we are virtually inundated with radio. allen VE6CFK ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 11:22:32 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Progress? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In the February issue of Bee Culture, my friend Richard Taylor opines that our world has become too harried, stressful, and "fast". He longs for the days of front porch gatherings and regrets that we will never again have collections of letters such as those left by Washington and Jefferson, as no one has time to write in a thoughtful manner. He blames much of this on the proliferation of computers and vows to never use one. Now, we on Bee-L have the suggestion that some will give up beekeeping if we (beekeepers) get too technologically advanced. As Richard Taylor is a very good friend, I have thought a lot about his comments. I have concluded that he is wrong. Yes, our friendship has survived disagreements and will continue to do so. What did away with long, thoughtful, letters was the telephone, not computers. Richard has a telephone and uses it frequently. But that is a quibble. The real issue is, were we (as a society or a civilization) better off when the world moved at a slower pace? Let's see, when the elite in society had the opportunity to write long thoughtful letters: * Large percentages of the population could not read or write. * In the United States, we had slavery. Indentured servitude was common. * Very few had as much as eight years of education. * Measles, polio, smallpox, and childbirth were all common killers. I could go on, as could you. I happen to spend a reasonable amount of time with Amish. We talk about the advantages to living without electricity, telephones, education beyond 8th grade (age 13), alcohol and drugs, abortions (largely), etc. We also talk about the disadvantages, which mostly revolve around physical injuries and poverty. There is no free lunch. They are beekeepers extraordinary, and use all the most modern methods. Except they obviously cannot do pollination as it has evolved. We live in a complex society, but IMHO it is the best living that our world has ever seen. Back to beekeeping. Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner, Ross Rounds, Inc. The finest in comb honey production. www.rossrounds.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 12:36:44 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Lipscomb, Al" Subject: Re: Computer AND Apidictor MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >Moreover amateur VHF and UHF voice and packet repeaters blanket Alberta. >Whether or not they could be used would be a judgement call. In the >experimental stages, I think it might be justified and permitted. Add to that >the amateur and commercial satellites, and we are virtually inundated with >radio. >allen >VE6CFK As long as the work was being done for non-comercial research the Ham bands would not be a bad place to start. A old 486 box running Linux, a used 2 meter radio and Terminal Node Controler (TNC). Hook up an inexpensive CCD camera and you could have pictures of the yard sent in several times a day. Collect other data as needed into the serial ports. Al AA4YU ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 12:38:18 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Computer AND Apidictor: Poll results (from ryarnell@OREDNET.O RG) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" This message was originally submitted by ryarnell@OREDNET.ORG to the BEE-L list at LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU. It was edited to remove quotes of previously posted material. ------------- Original message (ID=1B7EB1EA) (101 lines) ------------------ Well John, I didn't reply because I recognize that I have a little bee knowledge and a little knowledge of monitors and computers and the rest of what it might take to get a usable system working. Just enough of each to to be dangerous. However, when I was working in the solar industry, we designed a logic circuit and had it produced in only modest quantities for very little. The capabilities are now greatly improved. When the discussion first began, I envisioned a single weight sensing device under one side of each hive. I'm sure that a fairly hard plastic shell could include something to measure how much the plastic shell was compressed or deformed and that an electrical measurement of that one parameter could be accomplished on a chip. The same chip could include a short range transmitter which could be polled by a computer sited locally. Each measurement device would have to have signature (serial number). The frequency of polling would be determined by the computer. The plastic case would have to have a battery in it, but the power drain would be minimal until/unless the transmitter was on. Some correlation would have to be made so that the weight on a single sensor would reflect the actual weight of the hive. Perhaps relative weight is sufficient. For the trial, data could be retrieved from the computer and crunched elsewhere. _IF_ the weight data proves useful, then the circuitry could be enhanced to provide that large changes be reported to the central computer - an alarm. _IF_ the data proves useful, then a provision for transmitting it "home" in real time could be made. But that expense should be minimal because many ways of transmitting data from remote sites already exists. Cell phones or wireless computer connections are all adaptable off the shelf items. By using existing equipment, costs can be kept low. A weather station consisting of a temperature sensor, a cell to measure the amount of sunlight about, perhaps some way to measure relative humidity might be useful. The same might be true of wind velocity. But all those devices are commonly on the market. Later, packages could be put together depending on individual need. Software could be configured to deal with various additions of equipment. The key is that weight measurement device. And to help get the project off the ground: there have to be other uses for such a device. Incremental weight gain/loss or sudden weight gain/loss functioning as an alarm should have many applications. How dangerous is that? On Fri, 11 Feb 2000, Lewis wrote: > Hello All, > > We have some very revealing results from the hive monitoring poll. --------------- Richard Yarnell, SHAMBLES WORKSHOPS | No gimmick we try, no "scientific" Beavercreek, OR. Makers of fine | fix we attempt, will save our planet Wooden Canoes, The Stack(R) urban | until we reduce the population. Let's composter, fly tying benches | leave our kids a decent place to live. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 07:56:11 +1300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ron Law Subject: Re: Poppy/ Hazlenut Pollen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks for all of the responses regarding bees interest in poppy and hazelnut. My conclusion so far is that neither plant are significant to the vast majority of beekeepers from a commercial point of view but that bees are interested poppy. This raises two more questions. Are bees after the pollen or the nectar? What pollenates hazelnuts? Regards Ron Law ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 14:25:29 -0500 Reply-To: midnitebee@cybertours.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Midnite Bee Subject: book on bees and Romania MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings! We received this message in our web page guest book: Name: J. Beth Ciesielski Website: Bridges for Education Referred by: From a Friend From: USA Time: 2000-02-08 16:30:30 Comments: Dear Bee Friends, I am writing a book on bees and Romania. Two dissidents became beekeepers after they were fired from their jobs as physicists in Bucharest...true story. I would like to learn more about the hidden world of bees and bee keepers during the hard years of Ceauceseu..a metaphor for Romania, a country which I love. I have visited the Bee Research Institute in Bucharest and they are helpful very warm to this idea. But I am still searching for stories to include of those days. Thank you for your help, Best wishes, Beth Herb/Norma Holly-B Apiary PO Box 26 Wells,Maine 04090-0026 Stony Critters http://pages.ivillage.com/wh/stonycritters/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 14:34:42 -0500 Reply-To: midnitebee@cybertours.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Midnite Bee Subject: bee book/Romania MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit OOPS!! J.Beth Ciesielski e-mail address:jbc@buffalo.edu Name: J. Beth Ciesielski Website: Bridges for Education Referred by: From a Friend From: USA Time: 2000-02-08 16:30:30 -- Herb/Norma Holly-B Apiary PO Box 26 Wells,Maine 04090-0026 Midnite Bee http://www.cybertours.com/~midnitebee Stony Critters http://pages.ivillage.com/wh/stonycritters/ Old & Rare Beekeeping Books http://www.cybertours.com/%7Emidnitebee/html/books.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 08:26:13 +1300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ron Law Subject: Re: Progress? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit An interesting paradox. A modernist marketing "the finest in honeycomb production." I love it. Unfortunately, in our linear Western mindset, we think of yesterday's ideas as obsolete and tend to put them in the "past their use by date" box. I mean, who markets old fashioned honey comb these days? People did that in the old days before modern technology like centrifuges etc meant that you could sell more for less. However, I bet I know who gets the best price! The current debate about choosing organics or GE is interesting too. The DeathSciences companies say that organics was rejected by society, and that we need GE to feed the world, make food more nutritious, blah, blah. Yet some of the most spectacular successes have been when two eras or technologies converge. A good example is the convergience of telecommunications and computers. Why don't we converge modern science with organics? Given what we know about nutrition and disease now, it's got to be a winner. As Lloyd's paradox highlights, it doesn't have to be either/or -- it can be both/and. If you can make the same income selling less at a higher price -- why not. Then, perhaps, we might have more time for writing long and thoughtful emails. Ron Lloyd Spear wrote: > > We live in a complex society, but IMHO it is the best living that our world > has ever seen. > > Back to beekeeping. > > Lloyd > Lloyd Spear, Owner, Ross Rounds, Inc. The finest in comb honey production. > www.rossrounds.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 12:43:37 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Carmenie Stemmler Subject: NZ AFB method MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hello all, I have been recently reading the 'Pest Management Strategy - Elimination of American Foulbrood Without the Use of Drugs' by Mark Goodwin and Cliff Van Eaton. Has anyone here in Canada or the USA tried the NZ AFB methods outlined in the manual, even thought their neighbours may not be doing so? How did you fare? Did you get AFB really bad because someone elses outfit was contaminated, even though it may have not necessarily showed because of the use of the drugs? And if nowone has tried it, do you still think it is a could idea to do so, even though we may still have to use T-25? Like all the inspections and hive isolation? What do you think the pro's and con's are of doing it? I am just a beginner beekeeper, and had AFB last year in one hive. Since then I have done alot on reading on the matter, and would like to manage my bees somewhat according as the above manual outlined. But I will probably still have to use T-25. I live in Ontario Canada. Any comments on the above would be appreciated!! Thanks in advance, Carmenie P.S. For those who haven't checked the manual out, the web address is: http://www.nba.org.nz/pms/manual/index.htm __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 22:33:27 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: peter dillon Subject: Re: Poppy/ Hazlenut Pollen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As far as I know, poppy flowers give no nectar The wind pollinates hazels Regards Peter ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 18:21:19 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Robert J. Bassett" Subject: Re: Apidictor v. computer Comments: cc: benwagg@concentric.net, bwaggoner@autoprodinc.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 01/26/2000 10:23:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, allend@INTERNODE.NET writes: << Can any of you that have some good ideas give me (and Jerry) a wish list of hive readouts you would like to have along with an explanation? We're thinking of an operation that has more than a few hives, but perhaps even a hobbyist with a few hives set up a long way from home could afford and benefit from such a system. >> Hello Allen, Well, I don't know if I have any "good ideas" but you've really got me thinking about this. It is possible to remotely monitor anything, if you are willing to spend the money. I happen to work in a public utility and we have a substantial investment in remote monitoring equipment, especially in sewer system pump stations (about 250 locations) and treatment plants. We have found that we save sufficient labor and avoidance of other expenditures by the use of it, such that, the equipment really does pay for itself over a span of time. It seems that we need to think about things which will reduce our labor or other costs. If we knew that everything was going well at a certain yard, we would not need to go there as often. If we used the weight of a hive as one of our monitoring parameters, we could discern a great deal. If we could see the hives increasing in weight and the computer had a database indicating the number of supers on a given hive, we would know our reserve capacity for storage and possibly avoid a trip. Perhaps a hive lost considerable weight in one day. Maybe it swarmed. If a hive was not increasing along with the others, we may have a mite problem or disease. We should go check it out. We might even be able to see an outstanding queen and be able to use our best producing hive as the one we would breed from. The queen would be in the database anyway and we would know where she came from and be able to go back to the source for more, if we weren't breeding our own. We could also measure the humidity inside the hive as well as the temperature and be able to see what these conditions were like in our best hives during peak production. We could measure many different parameters, all of which may give us data to allow us to see the results of phenomena occurring within our hives. A measurement of our combined parameters occurring at swarming events may yield a signature to help us avoid conditions which foster swarming. The apidictor is only one parameter which may help us in swarm prediction, but I'll bet there are others, in combination with the apidictor, which will help to nail it down more securely. I believe the computer is really going to be the interface of whatever hive happenings we decide to monitor. Dick Tracy really wasn't that far off of reality with his wrist communicators, now was he? Bob ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 23:04:51 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Early Feeding MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Replying to the answer of Marc Studebaker: 1) The Boardman feeder should be outlawed. Too many beginners lose their bees by using this "lousy" excuse for a feeder. 2) Sucrose (plain sugar) does NOT cause dysentery. Coke syrup, HONEY, Hi Fructose syrup, maple syrup all may cause dysentery because of the impurities they may contain. Further, Nosema may cause diarrhea, and research suggests that 60% of ALL the hived bees in the U. S. have some Nosema infection, yet few beekeepers automatically treat every fall with Fumidil-B to prevent Nosema. I have always treated every fall to protect my bees while trying to make honey in the spring, because, like humans, bees cannot work very hard if they have the "runs". 3) While I also feed a pollen substitute as a "life insurance" in January and February, unless the colony is in a pollen poor location, the colony should have an adequate supply of pollen to prevent a protein shortage in most instances. 4) I am familiar with the border of Ohio- Indiana, since I attended of Michigan in Ann Arbor 60 years ago. I am aware that Maryland might be a few degrees warmer than the Dayton area, but I doubt it. We do get 1-2 flight days each month in January and February, today it was 57, but this date in 1899 it was -15 in Washington, DC, just 15 miles from my house. For many many years, I feed 1:1 Sugar syrup to 100+ colonies beginning in January and continue it until dandelions in April as an egg laying stimulant for the queen so that I have a huge population of foraging age bees ready to go nectar collecting on April 15th. because my honey crop is TOTALLY over by June 10th until next year. I encourage all Maryland beekeepers and those that have their only crop in April or May to feed starting surely by February, but ONLY SUGAR syrup through the inner cover hole. I hope I have helped. I wish all a great year and mite free bees. George Imirie ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 23:24:46 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Michael Chambers Subject: Endoglukin Comments: To: BEE-L@cnsibm.albany.edu Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hello, Can anyone provide me with information about Endoglukin? I am especially interested in a source of this product. Also, is there a way to make this? I do work in a molecular biology lab and have access to pilot scale fermenters. I have recently read of its use to treat bee diseases. Thank you very much, Michael Michael A. Chambers Aldevron, LLC. 3233 15th South Fargo, ND 58104 USA 1-701-297-9256 (Phone) 1-701-280-1642 (Fax) http://www.aldevron.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 06:46:43 -0500 Reply-To: adamf@metalab.unc.edu Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Subject: Pointer to new and improved honey bee information on the internet Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hello all, I hope you are all well and either gearing up for a season or winding down from a season. Beekeeping is fun! There is a new search engine on the honey bee archive at metalab.unc.edu http://metalab.unc.edu/bees >From there, one may search archived bee-l logs from this list and articles from sci.agriculture.beekeeping articles, simultaneously. This is very convenient if you're trying to find information. The previous in-house search engine at metalab did not fully index the site, and thus was fairly useless. Please give this new search engine a try. I'd appreciate comments and feedback if you have the time. Good wishes and good beekeeping to you! Sincerely, Adam -- ___________________________________________________________________________ Adam Finkelstein Internet Apiculture and Beekeeping Archive adamf@metalab.unc.edu http://metalab.unc.edu/bees ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 08:53:55 -0500 Reply-To: mpalmer@together.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Michael Palmer Organization: French Hill Apiaries Subject: Re: Early Feeding MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit George, have you ever fed high fructose corn syrup? Impurities?? I've fed many thousands of gallons of HFCS over the last 15 years or so, and have yet to see dysentery problems. Really, I don't see how there can be impurities in it. Mike GImasterBK@AOL.COM wrote: > > 2) Hi Fructose > syrup, may cause dysentery because of the impurities they may > contain. > George Imirie ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 10:14:49 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Early Feeding MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Michael Palmer wrote: > > George, have you ever fed high fructose corn syrup? Impurities?? I've fed many > thousands of gallons of HFCS over the last 15 years or so, and have yet to see > dysentery problems. HCFS is not as good as granulated sugar for bee feed. But it is not as bad as other feeds. But if not prepared properly, can be deadly. Studies by Baily writing in the 1966 Journal of Apiculture Research in England showed that all the other winter feeds caused increased bee mortality to some degree. In many cases, you will never see it because the normal time for feeding is spring buildup and it is warm enough for bees to void as well as die outside the hive. When you are talking about a buildup of thousands, some hundreds will never be seen by the bee keeper. The studies included honey, sugar, sugar with additives and HCFS. The final conclusion was sugar dissolved in water was the best feed, as long as the solution is greater than 30% sugar. Too thin a syrup was bad. Which is why honey that crystallizes easily is bad for overwintering. The bees eat the non-crystalized, diluted syrup. Even boiling was worse than dissolving at temp. High HMF seemes to be the culprit in causing problems. Some HCFS, if processed incorrectly or by acid hydrolysis will have high concentrations of HMF wich will bring on dysentary and bee deaths. We have gone over this often in the past, and most who see no problem live in climates that allow winter clensing flights. Like politics, All beekeeping is local. Bill Truesdell Bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 12:57:53 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Adony Melathopoulos Subject: Robust varroa management? Comments: To: jcbach@yvn.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/02/00 4:35:00 AM Mountain Standard Time, jcbach@YVN.COM writes: << I even called several commercial beekeepers around the country who had been reported to have had success with non chemical treatments. In the second and third year of use of their treatment, I was told that they had 25-50 percent losses each year. These losses were as high as would have been expected if they had not used any treatment. >> I completely agree with James- there is little evidence to support that in North America alternatives such as Varroa resistant stocks, formic acid or thymol perform as well as Apistan or CheckMite+. Control is typically lower and is more variable, so that in the same yard you can have somewhat and poor control. That is not to say there is no merit to using alternatives, where they are registered for use. I am hearing a great deal of excitement over integrating less effective treatments with the more powerful synthetic treatments- the philosophy being to keep mite populations low, for as long as possible, using 'alternative' and less effective treatments, and hammer the population down low with Apistan or CheckMite+ when mite populations rise again- thus using a fraction of the synthetic product annually. Using this technique, in theory, less synthetic chemical is put in the colony and the synthetic 'hammer' stays around, because resistance is slower to develop. In Canada many beekeepers have alternated formic acid (which has been registered for use for some time) and Apistan each year- perhaps giving Varroa a harder time to evolve resistance- and Apistan continues to perform well. The system appears to be far more robust that relying on the same powerful synthetic year after year. Why use a sledgehammer when a tap is all that is needed? Also along a line James was talking about- there are only few studies that can tell beekeepers how effective and cost comparable is an approach where effective treatments are integrated with powerful synthetic treatments- I hear many projects underway to do these comparisions and to provide beekeepers with these answers, however the results may be a year or two off. Will you save money? Will you get good mite control? Will you preserve these rare and powerful synthetic products longer? Intuitively yes, but empirically it is still up in the air. One WWW site that has a frame devoted to integrated pest management for honey bee mites and diseases is: http://www.medivet.ab.ca/medivet/ - go to the menu and select 'Integrated Colony Management' Regards Adony ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 15:33:54 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Early Feeding In-Reply-To: <200002121634.LAA11822@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > I've fed many thousands of gallons of HFCS over the last 15 years > > or so, and have yet to see dysentery problems. > > HCFS is not as good as granulated sugar for bee feed. But it is not as bad > as other feeds. But if not prepared properly, can be deadly. > Studies by Baily writing in the 1966 Journal of Apiculture Research in > England showed that all the other winter feeds caused increased bee > mortality to some degree. Bill covers the topic really well. I want to add to his, some comments received from a researcher in response to a recent enquiry. I had sent him a post to BEE-L that I was unsure about, prior to okaying it. The post in question was advocating using apple cider vinegar in sugar syrup feed. I had some concerns about possible effects of the acid present in vinegar. ---- begin quote ----- We have tested a variety of syrups on wintered and spring bees (different ages of sucrose and corn, acid hydrolysed, high sodium water etc). I presented these results at the ... meetings. I have not tested the use of vinegar in sugar but would not recommend the addition of any sort of acid to syrup that is to be fed as a fall feed. The bottom line is that wintered bees are more susceptible than spring bees (particularly with any level of acid in the syrup) and if you are unsure about the quality of syrup you should use it as a spring feed. Spring bees seem to be physiologically better adapted to handle the poorer quality syrups. Bees can tolerate some level of acidity even in winter feed (e.g. HFCS corn syrups) but do better in terms of their survival on syrup with combinations that have low titratable acidity. ---- end quote ---- We have previously discussed the case that occurred in western Canada a few seasons ago in which off-spec HFCS killed thousands of hives. The problem seems to have been pinned on acids used in the batches in question. I remember seeing a presentation in which the results of comparative bee feed tests were shown. When caged bees were given various feeds and the longevity was measured, the table sugar solution came out first. On-spec HFCS did almost as well, and gave somewhere around 80% of the lifespan as I recall. Other feeds were pretty bad. This is an artificial situation, and the reason for the differences is not entirely proven, nor is it proven that the results apply to bees on comb, but acid components in feed are strongly implicated in reduced bee survival over and over again... Bee longevity is important in wintering; it would be a shame to have your bees survive all winter and die and leave your hive in a spotty mess just as the spring arrives, especially after eating all your expensive feed. Here in the north, winters are a few months longer than in the south, and every day each bee lives increase the chance of the hive surviving and prospering until spring. allen PS: As far as apple cider vinegar is concerned, some ascribe almost mystical powers to it for human maladies and other purposes. Personally, I don't know. It didn't do much for me. If it is a good feed additive, I would like to have some proof such as controlled comparisons and the endorsement of an extension or research person. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 15:22:00 EDT Reply-To: mnasr@evbhort.uoguelph.ca Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Medhat Nasr Organization: Environ. Biology & Horticulture Subject: Re: Robust varroa management? Comments: To: dmcrory@omafra.gov.on.ca, ontbee@tcc.on.ca MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Bee line memebers: My definition to robust varroa management is an integrated mite management system. In ontario we have been using annually a combination of several methods for management of varroa and tracheal mites. These methods include: 1) requeening colonies every 2 years with tracheal mite-resistant hygienic bee stock (1/2 of the operation every year). 2) spring treatment of formic acid in mite-away pad (a single application formic acid pad was developed and used in Ontario since 1996-1997). 3) use of 1-2 drone brood to trap mites in the summer or early fall if needed. 4) fall treatment with Apistan. Our research results for evaluating the efficacy of applying this system showed that: 1) the use of tracheal mite-resistant- hygienic bees slows the mite development in bee colonies. In case of tracheal mites, the population will build very slowly and it will take more than 2 years to reach a damaging level. Hygienic bees which are able to remove >75% of freeze killed pupae are able to reduce the varroa population by 30%. 2) the use of a single application of mite-away formic acid pad in the spring is good for a full year for tracheal mite control and good to kill varroa in the spring without the need to use Apistan treatment in the spring. 3) Using this system has helped beekeepers in Ontario to achieve the following: a. Reduction of the annual colony mortality from 25-40% to less than 10%. b. No sign of varroa developing resistance to Apistan which has been used in Ontario for 8 years. We tested varroa mites to resistance to Apistan. Results showed that Apistan is effective and kills >95% of varroa mites. c. No Apistan residues in honey samples. We are in the process of testing Apistan residues in the wax. d. Beekeepers diversified their management and activities. We have a group of queen producers of Buckfast, Carniolian, Ontario bees how are involved in the breeding program for mite resistance. These beekeepers make their income from selling queens. They sell more than 15,000 queens/year and 6,000 nuclei/year. e. The total number of bee colonies is increasing for the last 2 years. f. Honey production per colony has been increased by 10-20%. Regarding the cost of this IPM, If you add the annual cost of colony loss (killed by mites) and replacement of these colonies, 2 times treatments with Apistan, loss of production. This program is economically viable and sustainable. This system is far more robust than relying on the same miticide (Apistan or Coumaphos) year after year. This system maintains healthy producing colonies year after year, too. Cheers, Medhat Nasr Medhat Nasr, Ph.D. Research Scientist, Ontario Beekeepers' Association Dept. Environmental Biology University of Guelph Guelph, Ontario, Canada N1G 2W1 Tel: (519) 824-4120 Fax:(519)837-0442 e-mail: mnasr@evbhort.uoguelph.ca ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 17:59:16 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Funding Issues MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I notice from Professor Riley's illuminating explanation of harmonic radar that it is able to show both speed and position. Doesn't Heisenberg's uncertainty principle come into play here? Chris Slade ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 17:59:20 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: "Bring on the dancing girls" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Some years ago I was required to give a talk, which is not a thing I am good at. I drew the graveyard watch (after lunch when people are inclined to nod off). I chose to give my talk based largely on the bee dances plus a little product sampling and entitled it as above. I persuaded the audience to get off their rumps and perform bee dances to indicate a nearby and then a distant floral source as seen through the windows of the room. It is probably just as well that they didn't stray onto the lawn outside as the location started out as the County Lunatic Asylum and it may have caused comment. It went down well. People stayed awake, enjoyed the experience, learned a little and may even buy some honey occasionally as a result. In the light of Adrian Wenner casting doubts on von Frisch's hypothesis how should I change my talk if I ever repeat it? Chris Slade ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 18:23:34 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Al Subject: Re: Robust varroa management? In-Reply-To: <200002121808.NAA13700@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > I am hearing a great deal of excitement over > integrating less effective treatments with the more powerful synthetic > treatments- the philosophy being to keep mite populations low, for as long as This is along the same lines as was put forward as EAS last year. A constant preasure on the mite population from several sources. One example given was the screen bottom board. Combine this with a spring formic treatment and the need for Apistan is reduced to once a year. I have a hive that has had the bottom screen in place for almost one year. It had a fall Apistan treatment, but I am going to skip the spring treatment until drone brood testing shows a high mite population. If I can get formic gel in time I may try and dose this hive. Next to this hive is a control hive. It is getting Apistan treatments twice a year. This hive has strips in it now due to high mite count in the drone brood (I am in Florida so I can open the hives to add and remove the strips). This sample size is too low for any real conclusions but if things track I will set more hives up with bottom boards. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 12:18:37 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Screened bottom boards MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A couple of weeks ago I predicted that suppliers of beekeeping equipment would come out with screened bottom boards that could be used instead of normal bottom boards, rather than as an accessory to such boards. With catalogs starting to come out, I see that Dadant and Kelley have such screens, and I understand that Rossman will also be offering them. For reasons that are not clear to me, both Kelley and Dadant show the screens on top of normal bottom boards, implying that they are designed to be used in that manner. Because wax moths find the area between the screen and the bottom board to be a lunch table, I feel pretty strongly that this is not an appropriate use. In addition, bottom boards cost money! I have previously reported that my bees over winter well here in upstate NY with only a screen on the bottom of the hive. However, the first winter I only had 3 hives so set up. This year I have 23, but the winter is not over. I had long heard that a local commercial beekeeper, Ed Lord in Hannacroix, had been using nothing but screens for bottom boards for more than 40 years. However, beekeeping legends being as they are I did not provide this information to the list or adopt it myself as evidence that solid bottom boards are not necessary. Last week I got to see for myself! Beekeeping has been Ed's sole source of income since 1942. Such beekeepers tend to know what they are doing. Ed is now 80 years old, and keeps 100 hives for pollination. When they come back from pollination, Ed makes splits and the next spring sells 50-100 full hives, keeping 100 hives for pollination. This winter has been a little strange. We had unseasonably warm weather until just before Christmas, when it turned bitter cold and that lasted for a month. Roughly four weeks with nights often -20 degrees F, and no snow for insulation. Daytime high temperatures ran from 5 degrees to 35 degrees. Then three weeks ago it started to snow, and we now have 2-3 feet on the ground. So, with very cold temperatures and no snow the bees would be pretty stressed if using screens as bottom boards was a bad idea. Last week we got a day in the 40's, and Ed and I inspected several of his yards to determine if he had unusual winter kill, so should cut back on his pollination commitments. We struggled through 2-3 foot deep snow to get to the hives. All hives are on pallets, and are not wrapped. I don't think we saw a single hive that was in less than 12" of snow, and most had snow entirely covering the bottom hive body. Ed and I dug out a few, so I could see that they had nothing but screens on the bottom. The screens are 1/8" hardware cloth and, at this time of year, had mouse guards in place. During the course of 4 or so hours of work we popped the covers on perhaps 50 hives and never found one dead. His story of how he came to use these bottoms is of interest. During the 50's, Ed over wintered in Florida and used tarps (rather than netting) to cover his hives in transit. After one experience with over heating the hives in transit, he decided he would use screened bottoms and covers while in transit. For the first few years he left the screened bottoms on all summer, but replaced them with solid boards for the winter. Then came the year when he couldn't get free from extracting and got an early snowfall that lasted the winter. He was convinced that come spring he would have massive losses. To his surprise, in the spring the losses were entirely normal. Since, for some 40 years, Ed has used nothing but screens and he has left them on all year. As Bee-L readers know, I have personally used a combination of old queen excluders and 1/4" to 1/2" hardware cloth as screens. After talking to Ed, I will exclusively use 1/8" hardware cloth. (I do not know what Kelley, Dadant and Rossman are using.) While 1/8" is the most expensive, Ed points out that bees can easily get through 1/4". When he moves the hives for pollination, he can't have that. When I pointed out that I don't have to worry about that as I don't do pollination he replied "but someday you will want to move that hive, and you will be sorry if you can't close off the bottom board". Of course, he is right! Today Medhat Nasr reported on using a variety of Varroa control methods to reduce Apistan use to once a year, and avoid resistance. Avoiding resistance to Apistan (fluvalinate) means that Coumaphos does not have to be used and, as we all know, Coumaphos may be our unique industry time bomb! At least two research studies have shown that the use of screens as hive bottoms will reduce early Varroa build up by as much as 30%. I urge beekeepers to add screens to their arsenal of Varroa weapons. Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner, Ross Rounds, Inc. The finest in comb honey production. www.rossrounds.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 16:17:16 PST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GREGOIRE@ENDOR.COM Subject: Re: NZ AFB method MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hello Carmenie and Gang, Think about this Carmenie, do you take anti-biotics when you are not sick? No? Why give anti-biotics to healthy bees? Much has been written on the subject. There is a group with many letters after their name who say yes, this is what to do. There is also a group of people with an equal amount of letters after their names who say no, do not do that. Take the time to read the scientific studies themselves, and separate fact from opinion as much as possible. It boils down to your own personal philosophy. Folks do what they believe to be right, even if it is not so. I believe what the scientists tell me with their studies. I also believe that anti-biotic use has been over done for a long while, and not just in beekeeping. It is looked upon as a magic bullet, the easier softer way. Selective breeding and using IPM, (Intergrated Pest Management) is initially costly, and time consuming, but ultimately very worthwhile. Ernie Gregoire "Beekeeper," definition= partially brave, partially excentric Grist Mill Apiary Canaan, NH. USA ------------------------------------- 02/13/99 16:17:16 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 14:12:40 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Adrian Wenner Subject: Language - not language Comments: cc: jbarthell@ucok.edu, ponerine@dakotacom.net, dbsmunro@nus.edu.sg, greenber@WSUHUB.UC.TWSU.EDU, Dadant@dadant.com, LJW2974@ACS.TAMU.EDU, KenFrazier@compuserve.com, cherubini@MINDSPRING.COM, berwick@ai.mit.edu, don_smf@hotmail.com, marcum@westmont.edu, daniel.lombardino@brookscole.com, harrington-wells@utulsa.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Denmark contributor Lars Hansen's Question #3 (18 January): Speaking of natural conditions: Could it be, that the area where some have experimented favoured a conclusion that odor is less important? And did the areas where others have experimented favor the opposite conclusion? As a European, I'm not familiar with American geography in detail, but I guess that a plains area and a small valley would emphasize different aspects? ********** To alter the thrust of his question slightly, control against odor artifacts in these types of experiments is more difficult to accomplish in some areas than in others. For instance, in most of the eastern United States and in central Europe (correct me if I am wrong on that), summer storms pass through with some degree of frequency. Winds tend to be in one direction during an approaching storm and in a quite different direction during a clearing condition. Bees from a colony in those areas can thus collectively forage rather well in more than one direction. Foragers learn landmarks and can remain faithful to a good food source for days or weeks on end. As winds shift, other foragers can forage in other directions simultaneously. Consider the results of an 8-day study conducted by Visscher and Seeley, published in 1982 (partly summarized in Fig 7.3 of Seeley's 1985 HONEYBEE ECOLOGY book). They observed dance maneuvers in an observation hive and noticed that foraging occurred primarily in one direction (SSW). A rainstorm moved in, at which time bees foraged close to the hive (as written about by Virgil). After the storm passed, however, most foraging that they tallied occurred in a NE direction. Visscher and Seeley did not publish information on wind direction, but their results can mesh with an odor-search hypothesis; foraging occurs primarily in one direction from the hive. Rain would wash nectar out of some types of flowers --- the foragers to that source would have to wait until those blossoms again yielded. The APPARENT switch to another direction in their study could be because other foragers visit another type of flower that still had nectar and would still provide dance maneuvers for those localities in the hive. The Visscher and Seeley interpretation: Some foragers had found a "better" source, and their dances had converted the foraging population to the new direction. I know, though, that foragers remain faithful to given sources for days or weeks. ********* In the Santa Barbara area we have a distinct advantage while conducting these types of experiments. Weather fronts move far to the north of us during the summer, and we normally have no rain between early April and November. Each day during the summer usually begins with light fog that dissipates by midday. The slight breeze from the SE in the morning gradually switches to a stronger breeze from the SW in the afternoon each day. The above set of circumstances enabled us to conduct our [1969] "crucial" experiment for a 24-day period, with nearly identical weather conditions for 3 hours each morning. The crucial experiment design we employed has two competing hypotheses (odor-search and language) pitted against one another. That is, a set of results will support one hypothesis and negate the other, or vice versa --- ambiguity cannot exist. The results were published as follows (also summarized in Chapter 10 of our book, ANATOMY OF A CONTROVERSY): 1969 Wenner, A.M., P.H. Wells and D.L. Johnson. Honey bee recruitment to food sources: Olfaction or language? SCIENCE. 164:84-86. A summary of some results of that study follows: 1) We collected a total of more than 2000 recruited bees during the experiment. 2) At stations where odor was present and routinely visited by a total of 20 different foragers, we got about 26 new recruits per hour. 3) At those same stations, under the same conditions but without odor, we obtained only 2 recruits per hour. (It is difficult to get rid of all traces of odor.) 4) During the same period (as in 3), as regular foragers visited feeding stations without odor, we had a third station with a feeder and the ODOR OF THE DAY BEFORE. That station had 19 arrivals per hour, with NO forager visitation and NO DANCES for that site in the hive. (Note the contrast: 19 per hour to odor but only 2 per hour where dances in the hive had presumably directed them.) I will gladly mail a copy of that article to anyone who wishes (furnish a mailing address, please). An academic question: "Will you find the results of this experiment mentioned in writings by language advocates?" ********* In reply to Lars Hansen's questions, then, I don't believe that researchers in the eastern U.S. or in Europe can satisfactorily conduct such an experiment, due to rather frequent changes in the weather and due to the fact that locality odors (distinctive smells in different places) become a much greater problem where one has rain. Adrian Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home phone) 967 Garcia Road (805) 893-8062 (UCSB FAX) Santa Barbara, CA 93106 ******************************************************************** * * "When we meet a fact which contradicts a prevailing theory, * we must accept that fact and abandon the theory, even when * the theory is supported by great names and generally * accepted." * * Claude Bernard --- 1865 ******************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 17:25:41 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Hazelnut pollen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is a good time of year for those who want to know what pollens are in their honey to collect a sample of Hazel pollen. The reason is that it is a recognisable shape under the microscope and always 25 microns across. With hazel pollen for a reference you can compare other pollen grains and decide that they are bigger, smaller or about the same size as hazel. This can considerably narrow the range of possibilities when identifying what you are looking at. Has anybody seen bees working hazel for pollen? The books say they do so sometimes but I have never seen it. I once identified Yew pollen (also wind distributed) in the gut of a bee. Chris Slade ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 23:29:04 -0500 Reply-To: beeman@kingston.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: kent stienburg Subject: Re: Screened bottom boards MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Lloyd and all, Lloyd, do the bees propolis the screen up? How large of an area on the bottom board do you remove to install the screen? Or do you manufacture a different bottom board? Thanks Kent ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 06:57:13 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Robust varroa management? In-Reply-To: <200002130514.AAA28640@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > If I can get formic gel in time I may try and dose this hive. At the SBA meeting I recall seeing a presentation showing that long duration formic treatments do suppress brood rearing when applied in the spring, whereas the short duration treatments do not. At the same meeting, Medhat described the long term formic method he has adapted to Ontario conditions, but did not AFAIK address this issue. I'm hoping he might comment on this aspect of formic treatment now, and whether he has observed it. > Next to this hive is a control hive. It is getting Apistan treatments > twice a year. This hive has strips in it now due to high mite count in the > drone brood Preparing and maintaining control hives for comparing varroa treatments is a problem. If the controls are adjacent the treatment hives, drifting of significant numbers of bees between them is likely. The exact levels of drifting depend on a number of factors, including breed of bee. 10% is not unusual. Moreover, apparently bees tend to drift from heavily infested hives to less infested ones. If the hives are separated by a distance, that does not exclude them from the problem of bees abandoning crashing hives, and also introduces the difference in location -- rather than the treatment -- as a possible explanation for any differences noted. Moreover, all hives should be as similar as possible at the beginning of the test. When we consider this and the fact that one hive has a history of infestation and a recent treatment going in to the test and the other does not, it would seem that meaningful conclusions will be hard to reach in this case. I don't know how the researchers deal with this problem. allen ----- See if your questions have been answered in over a decade of discussions. BEE-L archives & more: http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/Bee-l.htm Search sci.agriculture.beekeeping at http://www.deja.com/ or visit http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee to access both on the same page. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 07:24:40 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Marc Studebaker Subject: Re: Screened bottom boards MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lloyd Wrote: > >For reasons that are not clear to me, both Kelley and Dadant show the >screens on top of normal bottom boards, implying that they are designed to >be used in that manner. Because wax moths find the area between the screen >and the bottom board to be a lunch table, I feel pretty strongly that this >is not an appropriate use. In addition, bottom boards cost money! > >I have previously reported that my bees over winter well here in upstate NY >with only a screen on the bottom of the hive. I agree that a bottomboard under the screen would allow the fallen mites the chance to come back through the screen and re-attach to thier host, unless they are somehow trapped with a sticky board or other means. Does your screen attach to a frame which acts as the bottom board or does the screen attach directly to the bottom of the hive body with a spacer allowing entrance on one side? Please advise Marc Studebaker Geneva, IN ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 13:39:56 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ken Hoare Subject: Re: Screened bottom boards MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Lloyd, do the bees propolis the screen up? How large of an area on the > bottom board do you remove to install the screen? Or do you manufacture > a different bottom board? Personally believe there is a difference between screens and open mesh floors. The former is a division between the brood box and normal solid floor and as used in conjunction with an insert to monitor Varroa mite fall. The space below these screens are breeding grounds for wax moth. An open mesh floor is simply that - steel mesh supported by a light wooden frame. I believe this is the type referred to by Lloyd. My experiences - [1] hives with solid floors. Invariably wild comb is built from the bottom bars of the frame and fixed to the solid floor making removal and replacement of frames a little more difficult. I use a larger hive than normally promoted in the UK so it is not a shortage of brood rearing area. Although the frames are more difficult to remove/replace I admit a preference to seeing this comb, which invariably contains drone cells, in this position rather than ruining the face of a good comb of worker brood. [2] hives with open mesh floors, no comb is ever fixed to these and they NEVER get propolised. But if I leave a travelling screen in place above the brood box this invariably gets sealed with propolis. The same applies if I fix a small piece of wire mesh over the feed holes. Why?? They seem to like ventilation below but not from above. It is fair to add that I am not a migratory beekeeper and the few travelling screens that I own are made from a sheet of aluminium with small holes drilled about every half inch - it was the acoustic panel that surrounded a telephone booth. It is these holes that get blocked with propolis. Previously Lloyd mentioned using old queen excluders, even mesh wider than 8 wires to the inch, as mesh floors, totally wrong I would say (and I think he now agrees). The necessity of eight wire mesh is that it keeps the bees secure, but allows ventilation and both moisture and VARROA MITES to drop, virtually unimpeded, through. When someone invented the smoker it must have been looked upon as an advance in beekeeping. But now Liquid Smoke has been invented which I am informed is better still. Such is the case with Solid Floors and Open Mesh Floors. Ken Hoare in Shropshire UK (where thigh length waders are now needed) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 09:01:28 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Lipscomb, Al" Subject: Re: Robust varroa management & news from Florida MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >> If I can get formic gel in time I may try and dose this hive. >At the SBA meeting I recall seeing a presentation showing that long duration >formic treatments do suppress brood rearing when applied in the spring, whereas >the short duration treatments do not. At the same meeting, Medhat described the >long term formic method he has adapted to Ontario conditions, but did not AFAIK >address this issue. I'm hoping he might comment on this aspect of formic >treatment now, and whether he has observed it. I had a chance to travel to the Florida state fair yesterday. Our state bee inspectors always have a good presentation and are available for questions. >From the three inspectors that were there the reports were not good. In order: 1) The formic gel has problems in Florida due to our constant warm weather. It is reported that without 21 days of moderate temperature it is hard to get the correct treatment with the gel. 2) Apistan resistant mites are considered common here in Florida. The inspectors were very firm on this. They were seeing resistant mites everywhere. They are strongly pushing the use of Cumaphos. 3) The small hive beetle continues to expand. The entire state is considered infected. >Preparing and maintaining control hives for comparing varroa treatments is a >problem. I agree. While drifting is a concern, I wanted to have the hives close to me and in the same environment. Queen genetics are an issue but these two are from the same stock, which without the ability to do AI is the best I can do. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 10:53:39 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Screened bottom boards MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Before folks get too carried away with screened bottom boards, be aware that researchers are finding that although they can be an effective tool to combat varroa mites, they are NOT effective by themselves. Although varroa populations don't build up as quickly in a screened bottom board hive, by the end of a season the varroa population will exceed the poorly defined "economic threshold" and require additional treatment of some kind. Screened bottom boards should be viewed as a tool in integrated pest management. They are NOT the end all for varroa mites. For another view on Ed Lord's experiences with screened bottom boards, especially as they pertain to varroa control, send a single line of mail to: LISTSERV@listserv.albany.edu that reads: GETPOST BEE-L 025971 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 10:48:58 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Screens for bottoms MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kent asked if bees propolize these boards. They do not. Frankly, I never thought why not. Perhaps because they are on the bottom? Kent also asked for more detail concerning how I make the boards. Here is a copy of a reply I sent to a private inquiry. Based solely on catalog pictures, the Dadant and Kelley screens look identical. Note that the following referred to 1/2" hardware cloth. New boards that I make will use 1/8" hardware cloth. "I take an 1 inch thick board which, of course, actually measures 3/4". I rip that into 1 inch strips. I then cross-cut those into 20" and 16" pieces. I cut lap joints into both ends of the 16" pieces and one end of the 20" pieces. I then put one 16" piece and two 20" pieces onto a jig I made that exactly fits outside a hive. The lap joints from the 20" pieces fit those on the 16" piece. I put a bead of glue on top of the strips, and then lay a piece of 1/2" hardware cloth on top and staple it down. Then I put another set of strips on top of the wire, and drive nails through and into the strip below. This gives me a 20" X 16" piece of hardware cloth supported by the strips. The setup is set on my hive stand in same manner as a bottom board, and the lower hive body sits on top of the setup. The end without a set of 16" strips provides a lower entrance into the hive. I hope this helps." Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner, Ross Rounds, Inc. The finest in comb honey production. www.rossrounds.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 10:49:01 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Screened bottoms as a Varroa Control MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aaron Morris reported: "The long and the short of it from Ed was, open bottom boards are GREAT for ventilation but he noticed no improvement regarding varroa." As Aaron pointed out, this observation was based on winter loss. Two studies published in ABJ have reported that Varroa populations are decreased about 30% between spring and mid-summer (August 1, in the study from Cornell), but no population difference existed by early fall. The purpose of screened bottoms for Varroa control is to reduce populations and, perhaps in combination with other controls, delay or avoid one treatment a year. As reported to Bee-L by Medhat Nasr, avoiding just one treatment a year can delay fluvalinate resistance and avoid use of Coumaphos. Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner, Ross Rounds, Inc. The finest in comb honey production. www.rossrounds.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 11:18:58 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter R Watt Subject: Screened Bottom Boards. (Floors) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear all, I have used screened floors here in Scotland for the last ten years. Never has there been any attempt to propolise the opening. However the converse is definitely a different story. Any screening above the bees is sealed off as fast as they can manage. I once bought a hive that had a travelling screen on it as a crown-board or inner cover, which was virtually completely sealed with propolis. The message from my bees is quite clear. They don't want drafts above, but are quite happy to have them below. As the idea of screened floors spreads I would like to hear of colonies sealing off the floor. I suspect I might have a long wait! Wishing all a good season, Pete. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 09:11:09 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Robert J. Bassett" Subject: Re: Screened bottom boards Comments: cc: bwaggoner@autoprodinc.com, benwagg@concentric.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 02/13/2000 12:23:29 PM Eastern Standard Time, LloydSpear@EMAIL.MSN.COM writes: << Today Medhat Nasr reported on using a variety of Varroa control methods to reduce Apistan use to once a year, and avoid resistance. Avoiding resistance to Apistan (fluvalinate) means that Coumaphos does not have to be used and, as we all know, Coumaphos may be our unique industry time bomb! At least two research studies have shown that the use of screens as hive bottoms will reduce early Varroa build up by as much as 30%. I urge beekeepers to add screens to their arsenal of Varroa weapons. >> Hello Lloyd and Friends, Well, you've got me convinced. You have really made the picture clear for me. What a great post! I have an aversion to using chemicals anyway and anything that would help reduce the use of them is most welcome. I am going to get right on to building screened bottom boards. I live in Florida where we have a fairly high humidity. I was thinking of building a ventilated cover for the hives to help dry the nectar. Perhaps completely screened bottom boards will be sufficient in itself for the purpose of increased ventilation to get the humidity down. How do you feel about this? Additionally, would we use Apistan strips any differently with the use screened bottom boards? Thanks so much for this information, Bob ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 09:39:00 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Bartlett Subject: Re: Screened bottom boards MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All, How are the screened bottom boards going to effect the ability of the bees to maintain the brood area temperature of 92 -93 degrees F? Billy Bee