From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 14 07:55:35 2001 Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA05157 for ; Sun, 14 Jan 2001 07:55:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA00235 for ; Sun, 14 Jan 2001 07:58:30 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200101141258.HAA00235@listserv.albany.edu> Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 07:58:29 -0500 From: "L-Soft list server at University at Albany (1.8d)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0010B" To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Content-Length: 80417 Lines: 1704 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2000 22:49:10 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Mark Hayward Subject: Comb honey frames - winter storage MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I purchased my first two boxes of Ross Round frames early in 2000 (and here in Australia) just caught the end of the last flow of summer. Most sections were drawn and about 20% filled and capped nicely. I removed the 'good uns' ready for sale and stored the remainder away for winter. One box I froze to kill wax moths and eggs, then stored in sealed plastic bags. The other I put in a bag with a small tray of paradichlor. Upon opening in spring, the latter frames had not surprisingly picked up some of the smell of the paradichlor. However, this did abate somewhat after airing for a day or two. I put the RR supers on a strong hive a couple of weeks ago and when I checked this weekend, the bees were in the sections and appeared to be drawing foundation with gay abandon. Any comments on my methods, and particularly ideas on how you experts store partially filled sections (or 'returns' as I have heard them called) would be greatly appreciated. Regards Mark Hayward Amateur beekeeper Brisbane, Australia ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 13:02:12 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "BOGANSKY,RONALD J." Subject: Comb Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, I have really been enjoying the posts on the production of comb honey. I don't consider myself an expert in comb honey production and probably will not produce in a life time the number of RR sections that Allen produced in one season. I would like to emphasize the importance of two items that were already discussed. Young queens and a reduced brood area, (i.e. single or single and med.). A good friend and neighbor routinely produces in excess of 5000 RR sections each year. I have discussed his method with him a number of times and upon analysis the key to his success is the young queen and smaller brood area. I produce both RRs and regular cut comb. All my cut comb is package as "chunk honey" in jars with liquid honey. In the market I serve this is the best seller. If I was starting all over in beekeeping I would focus more on comb honey. Two reasons for this. One, I agree with Aaron and Lloyd, producing comb honey makes you a better beekeeper. Two, I like keeping bees, not extracting honey. The "thrill of the new crop" goes away after the first 500 lbs. Handling comb honey is much easier on the back all the way around. I don't use excluders because I am never successful with them, not because they don't work. What I have found is RR super makes a good excluder for comb production. I put a RR above the brood chamber and then put my comb honey supers above. I will get nice comb with out any problems with queen getting up and laying in them and a nice super of RR sections. DO NOT TRY THIS WITH EXTRACTING SUPERS OF DRAWN COMB. The bees will completely ignore the RR super. I have found it is very rare for the queen to lay in the RR super. Occasionally there may be a communication hole in one or two of the sections, or I will find a few drone cells on the bottom. These are cut out and the sections are used by us. I am still a believer that if there is some drone brood in brood chamber this is much less likely to occur. IMHO a colony needs to raise some drones. If we restrict this by only giving them worker foundation, they will just raise drones somewhere else. If you use a single shallow frame in the hive body they will draw out drone comb on the bottom. This can also be removed as a varroa trap. As to eating comb honey, I for one agree that there is nothing better. I sell directly to the public at a farm market. It is amazing the number of folks that have no concept as to how honey is stored by the bees. They have never seen a piece of honeycomb. I have been asked more than once if there were bees inside. My answer is always, "No way, bees are much to valuable to give away." It is a great lead in for telling folks the true value of honeybees. One last comment. The strangest request I ever had came from a customer for a section of comb honey. He was a hunter and had full body mount of a black bear that he shot. He wanted to encapsulate the comb in clear plastic and place it on a log in the display with the bear. I asked him if he was interested in some smashed hive bodies to go with it. Ron Bogansky Kutztown, (eastern) PA, USA + ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 12:59:11 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Greg Hankins Subject: Re: Comb honey In-Reply-To: <200010041800.OAA01528@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I've found it challenging to get the folks I sell to locally (NC Sandhills) interested in comb honey, but I was raised on it myself. Based on my experience, the absolutely best way to eat comb honey is to apply it along with a bit of butter to a piping hot, right from the oven, old-fashioned, homemade Southern baking powder biscuit -- preferably one made by my Momma or Grandmomma. Comb disappears, heat of the biscuit releases the fragrance and taste the bees locked in the comb . . . fabulous. (Parenthetically, I wonder if there's something about the acidity of the honey combined with the alkalinity of the baking soda or baking powder in the biscuit that helps make this such a winning combination?) Another thought: Encourage comb honey newcomers to find an attractive small glass candy dish with a lid and a flat bottom. Place this on the center of the kitchen table and place in it the comb honey cut from the ross rounds or removed from the cut comb package. We've found this encourages use of the honey when a family member "just wants a taste of something sweet." Greg ______________________________________________________________ Greg Hankins Happy Hank's Honey House ghankins@ac.net Mt. Gilead, North Carolina ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 17:16:20 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Unfinished Ross Rounds MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mark Hayward successfully stored unfinished Ross Rounds over the winter and put them back on. He is looking for comments, and wonders what others do with unfinished sections. I will be interested in whether you are pleased with the results of the sections you stored over the winter and then put back on. I have no doubt that the bees will finish them perfectly, but I don't know whether the comb will be tougher than otherwise. (Your honey might also be of two different colors (in one cell), as the flows are undoubtedly different in the spring compared to the fall. However, this in itself should not be a problem.) Yes, most producers I know will return unfinished sections for completion. However, this is usually done during the same season, rather than during the next season. To avoid travel stain, most are checking their supers weekly and removing those that are entirely or "almost" filled with cells sealed. Inevitably, some frames (usually on an end) or some sections (usually on either an end or just above the hive entrance) will not be completed. I am working with a lot of supers, so my procedure a little different, but can easily be adapted to any size operation. Because I have so many supers, I can't take the time to go through every one for incomplete sections before I freeze them. So, I first freeze them and thaw, and then start to take out completed sections. When I come across an entire frame that is incomplete (all four sections), I just set it aside and when I get eight such frames I put the frames in a super and back on the hive. I do likewise with individual sections, except here I first assemble four such incomplete sections into a frame. Then that frame is treated just like an entire incomplete frame. Only in late summer do I not put incomplete sections back on the hive. Our fall flow is not strong enough for comb honey, so these get set aside. In my operation, if they weigh at least 6.5 ounces they are sold as "seconds". I put an opaque cover on both sides and sell for 1/2 of the "first" price. I have more buyers than supply. Those that are incomplete and weigh less than 6.5 ounces I put in my capping melter. The honey comes out of my melter at about 90 degrees F. (32 C.), and it seems really superior to extracted honey! Maybe t my imagination. Lloyd Mailto:Lloyd@rossrounds.com. Lloyd Spear Owner, Ross Rounds, Inc. The finest in comb honey production. Visit our web site at http://www.rossrounds.com. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2000 17:31:18 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Coleene E. Davidson" Subject: Fondant MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello all and Help, I am looking for a recipe for fondant. I have searched the archives but = all I was able to find was a request for the same but no response. Any = and all help will be greatly appreciated. I have a strong hive that = feels light and do not wish to take a chance with them starving out this = winter. Also, is there any reason not to make syrup as heavy as honey = to feed as the season gets later and the bees have less time to process = the feed. As the weather permitted I fed 2 parts sugar to 1 part water = (66.6% solids). Could the bees process 80% solids (4:1) or would this = be too thick? =20 I still have much to learn. Coleene Davidson ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 10:51:41 +0100 Reply-To: joe@golberdon.prestel.co.uk Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Joe Hemmens Subject: Re: Wav file containing the beesound Comments: To: "C.R. Crowell" In-Reply-To: <200010041609.MAA27735@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT The following is taken from an article in the British Bee Journal, June 1993. It was written by Rex Boys, who worked with Eddie Woods (a BBC sound engineer) in the 1960's and whose work he describes in the article. '... Take for example, the measurement of wing beat frequency. This had previously been done using a stroboscope which meant the bee had to be pinned down. It had not been realised that in flight, the freedom of the bee's body to move up and down altered the position about which the system pivoted and so changed the resonant frequency. Eddie just listened to a bee flying around the room and picked out the nearest note on the piano. For a worker, this was b adjacent to middle c, giving a beat of 250 times a second. This is a measurement that anyone can do though he confirmed it later by more technical means. The stroboscope result of 180 times a second is still valid for fanning, though, when the bee anchors itself firmly to the ground.' In an article written by Eddie Woods in New Scientist published circa 1950 he gives the worker bee wing beat frequency as 250 beats per second plus or minus 1.5 percent. Rex Boys has retired from beekeeping but is now a regular contributor on the Irish Beekeeping list and would (I think) enjoy discussing this subject. He can also be contacted at- RexBoys@westmancote.freeserve.co.uk Joe Hemmens > I have read that the bee sound is roughly equivalent to the key of B, > one note below middle C on the piano. This is what I found when > perusing the BEE-L archives. However, I seem to recall a different > note mentioned in one of Sue Hubbell's books (I think it was a sharp). > > Anyone have any other information? > Thanks/ Curtis Crowell > Hightstown, NJ > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 14:55:47 +1300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: Robert Mann Subject: honey for health Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" In an intense surge of patriotism, I push diligently the accomplishments of my friend Peter Molan: http://honey.bio.waikato.ac.nz R - Robt Mann consultant ecologist P O Box 28878 Remuera, Auckland 1005, New Zealand (9) 524 2949 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 19:45:26 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: huestis Subject: slatted racks and comb honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, Thanks Lloyd for explaining the Killion super to me and forgive my = ignorance. I have never produced comb honey before just extracted. I = have just read HONEY IN THE COMB as was suggested by certain members of = the list. An excellent read and I recommend it to everyone. What = advantage does using a slatted rack have verses not using one? Does = it's use reduce swarming or allow the queen to utillize more of the = brood chamber? Do commercial comb producers use them anymore or are = they considered a gadget? Thanks. Clayton Huestis Crown Point, NY ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2000 22:40:48 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: darrells Subject: Re: Comb Honey In-Reply-To: <200010072306.TAA00377@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I have a 4 frame extractor, and run 9 frames in medium supers for honey. The centre frame is usually new and without any foundation. In a flow the bees draw this frame quickly into drone sized cells, then fill it and cap it first. I use this frame for cut comb honey and extract the other 8. Sometimes you can pull this frame before the super is fully capped and get another frame of cut comb by installing another empty frame in the centre position. I store all my cut comb trays in the freezer until sold. For a small beekeeper, like myself, this method produces more comb honey than I can sell with no special hive manipulations. Bob Darrell Caledon Ontario Canada 44N 80W My wife and I are leaving for a trip to Australia & New Zealand Tuesday; so I'll sign off Bee-L till we return in December. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 06:22:03 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: MattAllan@AOL.COM Subject: Arkansas MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I shall be visiting Arkansas (El Dorado) for a week at the end of this month. If any beekeeper in the area is happy for me to visit them for an hour or two, I would appreciate the opportunity. Regards Matthew J Allan Eastleigh England ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 10:47:52 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: slatted racks MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Concerning comb honey production, Clayton writes, "What advantage does using a slatted rack have verses not using one?" In my opinion, a slatted rack really serves no useful purpose. More important, earlier this year a university-type did a good comparison test and reported the results in The American Beekeeping Journal. The conclusion was that they made no difference. That said, they certainly do no harm and you should not hesitate to use them if you wish. Lloyd Mailto:Lloyd@rossrounds.com. Lloyd Spear Owner, Ross Rounds, Inc. The finest in comb honey production. Visit our web site at http://www.rossrounds.com. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 10:47:51 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Fondant MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Coleene writes "I am looking for a recipe for fondant. I have searched the archives but all I was able to find was a request for the same but no response." Coleene, look in the archives for "bee candy", which is the same thing as fondant. I think you will be pleased with what you find. If not, let me know as in my private files I have a few old recipes, comments, etc. that I will be glad to share. Lloyd Mailto:Lloyd@rossrounds.com. Lloyd Spear Owner, Ross Rounds, Inc. The finest in comb honey production. Visit our web site at http://www.rossrounds.com. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 09:32:57 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: darn@FREENET.EDMONTON.AB.CA Subject: Re: slatted racks In-Reply-To: <200010111444.KAA05002@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I believe the slatted racks with deep hive bases were used to improve the ventilation in the hive. I built 6 deep hive bases with slotted racks some years ago for production of comb honey. They have been used since then along with regular hive bases for extracted honey. They seem to do a little better than the regular ones but not enough to justify making them. If you are using the deep bases for ventilation you have to use the slatted racks with them. If you don't the bees build comb down into the bases making it awkward to reverse the supers or move combs between hives. A modern replacement would be a deep base with a screen board which would provide extra ventilation and also some control of varroa mites. Best regards, Donald Aitken Edmonton Alberta Canada ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 15:47:53 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Keim Subject: Beekeeper E-card MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" This morning my wife sent me a "Miss my honey" e-card. (Open the following link to view.) Apparently someone with some savvy created the graphic, as the "e-bee" has a container of nectar, not honey. Any 'significant other' beekeeper should find it amusing... Follow the directions from Blue mountain and you can personalize it and send it to whomever. John Keim Keim Apiaries Fairview, Kansas http://www.bluemountain.com/eng3/bill/MIShoney.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 09:47:00 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Adrian Wenner Subject: Bee sounds & Wav file Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Joe Hemmens summarized some of Eddie Woods' conclusions about the frequency of bee sounds and included the following comment: >In an article written by Eddie Woods in New Scientist published >circa 1950 he gives the worker bee wing beat frequency as 250 >beats per second plus or minus 1.5 percent. Earlier on this network, Barry Birkey wrote (in part): >Dr. Adrian Wenner has done a significant amount of work in bee sounds and >you can read an article of his at: http://www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/sci1964.htm That article (item #4) has sound spectrograms (sonograms) of various bee sounds. Although a flying bee does produce a sound of about 250 cps, a swarm moving through the air has a much higher frequency --- as experienced beekeepers well know. Queens that "pipe" produce two distinctly different sounds. When a free-roaming queen "toots" , she may emphasize a fundamental frequency of about 400 cps and a harmonic of about 1200 cps. Those still kept in their cells by workers "quack," and emphasize several harmonics while so doing. One can see sonograms of those and other bee sounds in that article on the web site. Eddie Woods incorrectly concluded that queens produced their piping sounds by use of their spiracles. James Simpson of the Rothamstead Experimental Station showed that not to be the case --- as summarized in that web site article. Adrian Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home phone) 967 Garcia Road (805) 893-8062 (UCSB FAX) Santa Barbara, CA 93106 [http://www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/index.htm] ******************************************************************** * * "To have one's opinions prefabricated can be a source of great * comfort and relief. It relieves one of the responsibility of * choice." * Murray Levin, 1971 * ******************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 18:34:17 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Richard E Leber Subject: Saint Ambrose Day MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Help Ya'll I saved this post from almost two years ago. Now trying to find support documentation both Elias Gonzales e-mail and web address return "User Unknown". Can anyone supply a resource for additional information on St. Ambrose, patron saint of beekeeping and candle making? Rick & Nancy Leber Beekeeping & Honey Production Since 1987 Mobile, 'Sweet Home Alabama' ricks.toy@juno.com On Mon, 7 Dec 1998 08:40:31 +0000 Elias Gonzalez San juan writes: > Hi all. > > Tomorrow, the 7th of December, it's the Saint Ambrose's day, > Patron of beekeepers and candlemakers. > > Best wishes for all beekeepers and candlemakers around the world. > > Elias Gonzalez. > La Palma - Canary Islands. > 28 North - 18 West. > > beepress@iedatos.es > > --------------- > You can see two images of Saint Ambrose in my Web page at: > > http://www.iedatos.es/user/usr10005/ambrosio.htm ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 21:51:22 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: AL Subject: unlearned honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have a friend living in China who sent the following inquiry. I don't have a clue how to answer his question. >From a friend in China: I was drinking a bottle of "C'est Bon" brand Green Tea Drink given to me today in Sanya on Hainan Island and noted that it contains "unlearned honey". Please explain as I am also "unlearned". Does anyone out there know what "unlearned honey" might mean? I am suspecting the Green Tea labeling is a botched attempt at translation from another language. He does not mention whether the "unlearned" phrase is written in Chinese or English. AL ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 05:07:06 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "C.R. Crowell" Subject: Re: Saint Ambrose Day MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >From http://www.catholic-forum.com/saints/sainta07.htm See the last paragraph in particular. He lived in a fairly barbaric era, and his association with bees is incidental. There are a few other sites that come up if you do a search. Saint Ambrose of Milan - Also known as The Honey Tongued Doctor; Ambrogio Memorial 7 December Profile: Roman nobility. Brother of Saint Marcellina and Saint Satyrus. Educated in the classics, Greek, and philosophy @ Rome. Poet and noted orator. Convert. Governor of Milan. When the bishop of Milan died, a dispute over his replacement was leading to violence. Ambrose intervened to calm to sides; he impressed everyone involved so much that, at age 34 and while still a catechuman, he was appointed to the see. He resisted, claiming that he was not worthy, and after it was prophesied by a small child who heard him speak, and to prevent any uprising over the problem, he assented, ordained on 7 December 374. He immediately gave away his wealth to the Church and the poor for good it did, and as an example. Preacher, teacher, bible student of renown, and writer of liturgical hymns. Stood firm against pagans and Arians. His preaching converted Saint Augustine of Hippo, whom Ambrose baptized and brought into the Church. Ambrose's preaching brought Emporer Theodosius to do public penance for his sins. He called and chaired several theological councils during his time as bishop, many devoted to fighting heresy. Proclaimed a great Doctor of the Latin Church by Pope Boniface VIII in 1298. The title "Honey Tongued Doctor," initially bestowed because of his speaking and preaching ability, led to the use of a beehive and bees in his iconography, symbols which also indicate wisdom. This led to his association with bees, beekeepers, chandlers, wax refiners, etc. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 22:58:55 -0500 Reply-To: Fr-Athanasios Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Fr-Athanasios Subject: Re: Saint Ambrose Day ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard E Leber" To: Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2000 6:34 PM Subject: Saint Ambrose Day > Help Ya'll > Can anyone supply a resource for additional information on St. Ambrose, > patron saint of beekeeping and candle making? > Rick & Nancy Leber > Beekeeping & Honey Production Since 1987 > Mobile, 'Sweet Home Alabama' > ricks.toy@juno.com Below is some more information on St. Ambrose. I hope this helps. + Fr. Athanasios "St Ambrose, Bishop of Mediolanum (Milan). This great Father of the Orthodox Church was of eminent parentage. His father was the imperial governor of Gaul and Spain, and a pagan, while his mother was a Christian. While he was still in his cradle, a swarm of bees once settled on him, left some honey on his lips and flew off; and, while still a child, he thrust out his hand and said prophetically: 'Kiss it, for I shall be a bishop!' On the death of his father, the Emperor made him governor of Liguria, of which province Milan was the chief city. When the bishop of Milan died, there was great dissention between the Orthodox Christians and the heretical Arians about the choice of a new bishop. Ambrose went into the church to keep order, this being his responsibility. Thereupon, a child at its mother's breast cried out: 'Ambrose for bishop!' All the people took this to be the voice of God, and unanimously elected Ambrose as their bishop, although it was against his will. Ambrose was baptised, and passed through all the necessary ranks in one week, and was consecrated bishop. In this capacity, he strengthened the faith of the Orthodox, restrained heretics, adorned churches, spread the Faith among the pagans, wrote many instructive books and was an example of a true Christian and a true shepherd. He also composed the Te Deum, the great hymn of thanksgiving. This renowned hierarch, who was visited by people from distant lands for his wisdom and gracious words, was very austere in his personal life, being no stranger to toil and full of good works. He slept little, worked and prayed constantly and fasted every day except Saturday and Sunday. God therefore permitted him to witness many of His wonders, and to perform many himself He discovered the relics of Ss Protasius, Gervasius, Nazarius and Celsus (see Oct. 14th). Humble before lesser men, he was fearless before the great. He reproached the Empress Justina for heresy, cursed Maximus for tyranny and murder and forbade the Emperor Theodosius to enter a church until he had repented of his sin. He refused to meet the powerful Eugenius, the self-styled Emperor. God granted this man, who was so pleasing to Him, such grace that he could raise the dead, drive demons from men, heal the sick of every ailment and see into the future. He died peacefully at daybreak on Easter Day in the year 397." ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 15:35:01 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Adony Melathopoulos Subject: sampling honey for AFB Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I want some feedback from the list. We are looking to evaluate a sensitive technique for sampling spores of the bacteria that causes AFB in honey (see a little review below). As far as I am aware, up to now sampling for spores, in an operational way, has been restricted to drawing samples from drums of honey. This kind of sampling is very easy to do, but provides information on strictly an operation wide basis; perhaps a little too gross scale to make disease management decisions on an apiary-level. I would like some ideas from the members of the list about how to best sample honey on an apiary-wide basis. I would like ideas that pull honey uniformly from each colony in the apiary and would be easy for you to incorporate in your current practices. So far beekeepers I have talked to have come up with two ideas: 1) mark boxes from a given apiary, extract them in series and sample the honey in the sump ½ way through extracting the apiary. 2) during the spring inspection, take a syringe and partially fill it with honey from the brood nest of each colony in the apiary (or a subsample). Any other ideas? Here is some background on sampling honey for spores. I look for to your clever schemes. - Adony A recently developed complement to colony inspection is microbiological assay of honey and adult bees for P. l. larvae spores. Protocols for sampling honey (Hansen 1984ab, Hansen and Rasmussen 1986, Shmanuki and Knox 1988, Hortnitzky and Clark 1991, Hornitzky and Nicholls 1993, Nordström and Fries 1995) and adult bees (Goodwin, Perry and Haine 1996) for spores are well developed and can detect colony infections prior to the appearance of clinical symptoms. Preliminary studies have shown that microbiological assessment of honey can predict the risk of infection among colonies, apiaries and entire beekeeping operations. Spores cultured from bulk honey samples obtained from 315 Australian beekeepers showed a correlation between spore concentration and the likelihood of disease or recent disease history in the beekeeper's operation (Hornitzky and Clark 1991). Owing to the sensitivity of the bioassay, 34% of the beekeepers in the study were made aware of AFB outbreaks that wer! e not detected prior to being advised of the status of their honey bioassay. Furthermore, another 23% of beekeepers in the study had bioassay results detecting spores in honey, even though no colonies showed signs of AFB. Hansen and Rasmussen (1986) suggest that the detection of sub-clinical levels of spores from a sample of honey from an apiary can predict outbreaks of AFB a year in advance, although conclusive experimental data is lacking. Direct sampling of spores using a bioassay also overcomes the difficulty of visually detecting disease symptoms following treatment with antibiotic, which tends to mask symptoms. The sensitivity of detecting low level of spores in samples of honey may make it possible to conduct widespread sampling to determine the incidence of OTC-resistant P. l. larvae throughout a region. Presently no published studies have correlated the presence of OTC-resistant P. l. larvae in a beekeeping operation to honey samples, or isolated resistant P. l. larvae from honey. The proposed project will not only seek to employ honey sampling to determine AFB hazard among apiaries and operations, but also to determine the extent of spread of OTC-resistant P. l. larvae. Adony Melathopoulos Apiculture Biotechnologist Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada Beaverlodge Research Farm Box CP 29 Beaverlodge, Alberta CANADA T0H 0C0 T +1 780 354 5130 F +1 780 354 8171 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 23:05:43 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: pdillon Subject: AFB and U.V Light MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bonjour from France, Having come across a simple reference refering to AFB stating that it is possible to identify AFB scales in brood comb by shining a U.V. light source onto them - whereupon they will "glow", I would be interested to know if anybody has ever used this technique and is it effective? Regards to all Peter ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 14:17:59 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Dry Weight Basis? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm working on my pollen supplement/substitute again. Does anyone know whether the numbers given for pollen protein levels and ideal feed protein levels are given on a dry weight basis or on the basis of the weight when collected from the field? It makes a difference. allen --- A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/Diary/ Now approaching 10,000 visits. Latest addition: Formic pad preparation pictures ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 22:23:00 -0400 Reply-To: arl@q7.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Al Subject: Re: sampling honey for AFB In-Reply-To: <200010131955.PAA15428@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >1) mark boxes from a given apiary, extract them in series and sample the honey in the sump ½ way >through extracting the apiary. >2) during the spring inspection, take a syringe and partially fill it with honey from the brood >nest of each colony in the apiary (or a subsample). >Any other ideas? It would depend on how much honey you need for a sample. If only a small amount was needed I would use a sterile cotton swap to puncture a capped honey cell. Then put the swab(s) into a sealed and labeled plastic bag. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 05:35:16 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: sampling honey for AFB In-Reply-To: <200010131954.PAA15391@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The following email was sent to BEE-L, but was rejected due to the inclusion of the entire and voluminous contents of the previous post, a breach of the guidelines that has resulted in many rejections lately. (Large quotes are verboten because they would clog up the archives and make our most valuable resource difficult to use. Lately moderators have pretty much taken a zero-tolerance approach due to lack of time to write the senders, and merely delete offending contributions without comment). Nonetheless, this is a most valuable and interesting reply and -- since I have been intending to take on this topic myself -- I shall pass on the actual contents -- sans quotes -- along with my own questions on this matter... > From: "S W Cranfield" > To: > Subject: Re: sampling honey for AFB > Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 12:38:46 +1300 > > I haven't done any honey testing but currently run a service > for NZ beekeepers testing for AFB in bees from individual > hives. This test shows up hives with subclinical and clinical > symptoms and could be used for surveying entire yards by > bulking the samples together for processing tho the individual > hive tests are more practical when it come to detecting and > isolating a spore generator. > > incidentally I run 700 hives for pollination, honey and bulk bees. > > Shaun Cranfield > slcranfield@xtra.co.nz My questions are: 1. The above quote suggests that the bees, rather than the honey as Adony was discussing, are being tested by the writer. How is this done? 2. How are spores generated in a hive unless there is an actual breakdown of the brood? 3. If there is such a breakdown, is this not visible to the eye? 4. If spore generators have symptoms visible to the eye, is this test better or more economical than inspection? 5. can spores be generated without any visible signs? If so, how does this occur; what is the mechanism? allen --- A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/Diary/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 11:27:09 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: AL Subject: Re: unlearned honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The friend in China has obtained another bottle of the Green Tea containing "unlearned" honey. He reports that the Chinese labeling calls it "Pure Natural Honey", it is the English translation that uses the "unlearned" phrase. His having missed that the first time around has me wondering what else might be in that tea:) Thanks for the input. AL ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 15:26:49 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: David Verville Subject: Cappings MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Could someone explain to me how a capping spinner works? What's the principal behind it? Is this something a DIY can make? If so, what are the basic parts? Dave Verville Fremont NH http://www.beesource.com/plans/extractor_20.htm http://www.beesource.com/plans/framejig.htm http://www.beesource.com/plans/obsphoto.htm ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 13:26:10 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: How Good is the Sugar Shake? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here are our preliminary results: In ten yards we obtained 45 mites from two to four hives by sugar shakes, using about a cup of bees per hive with all the sugar dumped into a single bag per yard for later analysis by dissolving the sugar in water. We then immediately placed two Apistan(r) strips into each of the same tested hives and inserted sticky boards with screens. The strips and boards were left in the hives a minimum of 24 hours and a maximum of about a week (see data). The sugar gave us 49 mites and the boards returned 2384 mites for a ratio of about 49 mites dropped by Apistan for each mite found by sugar in the same hives, however one must consider that some individual hives and some yards returned zeros for both tests and therefore a simple ratio like 50:1 cannot be used. A quick glance reveals that the ratio varies from around 15:1 to infinity:1. Several hive groups that gave zero results from sugar shake subsequently yielded mites in the hundreds. Here is the raw data: Board P/u Yard Name Sugar Result Sticky Result Date Shake (Mites) Board (Mites) O5 BCNE S28 0 S28 0 O5 BCSW S29 0 S29 0 O5 BCSE S29 0 S28 13 O5 Jahns' O5 3 O5 0 O5 Taylors' O5 0 O5 1 O13 Vanovers' O10 0 O10 28 O13 KadarE O6 0 O6 235 O13 KadarW O6 3 O6 235 O13 ButlerW O10 0 O10 162 O13 ButlerE O10 0 O10 41 O13 Pisco O11 0 O11 204 O13 Hainsworth O11 0 O11 63 O13 Dixon Bush O11 28 O11 421 O10 Wilson O10 4 O10 288 O11 Dixon O11 8 O10 22 O12 Beckwith's O12 5 O12 72 O12 Schlags Hill O10 0 O12 213 O10 Schlag CS O10 0 O10 2 O13 Rattai O12 1 O12 381 Key: O13 is October 13, S29 is September 29 The work was done by our competent commercial beekeeping staff while going about their normal activities, following standard procedures. Our location is east and north of 51.1 N, 114.02 W or around halfway between Lethbridge and Edmonton, Alberta CANADA. I would be interested in comments from scientists and extension people as well as beekeepers on what to make of this. allen --- A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/Diary/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 21:22:53 +0200 Reply-To: Gilles.Fert@wanadoo.fr Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Fert Gilles Subject: too much seeds after the bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Since 99, near Valencia in Spain, we are not alowed to put hives closer than 3 kms from the oranges orchards. Actually, the owners of the orchards noticed that after the polination by bees, the oranges have too much seeds wich is not good for the market. Is someone involved in such a problem? Gilles FERT http://www.apiculture.com/fert/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 10:45:47 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Kilty Subject: Re: The Honeybees of the British Isles In-Reply-To: <200006071321.JAA23542@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <200006071321.JAA23542@listserv.albany.edu>, Aaron Morris writes >James Kilty wrote in a submission titled >Subject: Re: From sci.agriculture.beekeeping: > >> The IOW disease turns out to be one of the viruses which are propagated >> rather well by varroa, I think it is now thought to be the Slow >> Paralysis Virus which caused it. Acarine may well have been the >> stimulus. > >I'm a bit confused by this. My interpretation is that James is saying that >IOW disease endemic in Britian in the 1920s may have been vectored by >acarine but now is believed to be the Slow >Paralysis Virus (SPV) which is being spread by varroa. Actually, I'm not >sure what is being said. Perhaps that SPV has always been around, acarine >vectored the outbreak in the '20s and that varroa is a more efficient vector >today? James, if you will, please set me straight. I have not read Beowulf >Cooper's writings. I cannot remember where I read the report on SPV. I will reread all my BIBBA articles in "The Bee Breeder". >Having read some of Brother Adam's writings I thought Britain's bee >populations were left quite devastated by IOW disease and Brother Adam >searched Europe, Northern Africa and the Middle East for genetic material to >breed with the survivors. Does Mr. Cooper assert that perhaps things would >have been better off without Borther Adam's importation of genetic material? >Admittedly I am not up to snuff on BIBBA's (Bee Improvement and Bee Breeders >Association) stance on the issue. I think one of their goals is to >reestablish the native dark bee. Is the intent to "filter out mongrel >genes" or to select from existing stock the characteristics that are most >desireable while concentrating towards those attributed to the native dark >bee? Any enlightenment will be appreciated. I attach an email from one of our national experts on this. I still have in mind a summary of the situation as set out by Beowulf Cooper and by members of BIBBA in the 3 decades since his work. Hello James, Sorry to be so long in replying to your query, I have been away, then we had the conference last weekend. With a lot of back mail to get through I have only just got round to yours. It is easy to make assumptions and come out with statements that are regarded as facts, so I will give you my thoughts on some of the points raised, so please do not quote me as these being authorative. Brother Adam was probably sincere in believing that the I.O.W. disease wiped out the indigenous population of bees, although when one thinks about it to make such a statement without a national survey was not really factual. Such a survey was never done or it would have been published. There was no doubt it did devastate a large proportion of the bee colonies here in Britain. Obviously I was not around then, and I can only quote others who were. Reading back copies of the British Bee Journal for 1925 and 1926 (I have the bound copies for those years) I find there are letters from beekeepers who say they have had the same bees from the turn of the century, at no time did they suffer losses from the disease. As Brother Adam made his statement prior to 1925 it appears there was not a total wipe out. It is not nature's way to do this. Rabbits survived their terrible disease, and the same has occurred with Varroa where no treatment has been given (Tunisia). Today there is a viable population of native bees here in Britain, although I cannot say if these are descendants of the native bee because I have no means of proving this. I say native in the sense that these have the same morphological characteristics as the native bee of the 1800's. This has been proved by examination of bees in the Natural History Museum by Eric Milner and John Dews who published their findings. Recently the work by Dr. Bo Vest Pedersen at Copenhagen University has shown that there are bees here in Britain and Ireland with identical morphometry (correction by James - dna studies in addition to morphometry) to the Apis mellifera mellifera bees of Tasmania. As the original Apis mellifera mellifera stocks of Tasmania came from Britain this seems to indicate that we still have bees here today similar to those of Britain at the beginning of the last century. As the native bee of Britain is the same sub-species as the bee of Northern Europe, and bearing in mind that we had a lot of imports of black bees from Europe in the early 1920's I cannot see how anyone can be definitive in making a statement either one way or the other regarding our "native bees". One can only speculate what Brother Adam could have achieved if he had used the survivors of the I.O.W. disease. He chose to create a hybrid bee, that at best is very variable, and at worst is an awful cross-bred bee. Prof. Ruttner took the opposite view to Brother Adam, that is to go for pure race bees, pointing out that one can never breed true from hybrids. I started beekeeping with Buckfast bees, but soon changed to 'native' bees. There has been a lot of misconceptions about 'native' black bees, one of which is that they are nasty tempered. This is easily disproved if one sees pure bred stocks that are not hybrids, for many so called black bees are hybrids. Today we have the problem of trying to get queens mated within strain, and our group have travelled vast distances over the last 20 years to sites which offer some isolation. If we are to make any worthwhile progress in finding colonies that will give either partial resistance or total resistance to Varroa, then we will only do so if we use pure bred stocks so that the resistant characteristics can be passed on. Progress is being made in the resistance sphere, we now have stocks that are damaging over 40% of the Varroa mites naturally dropping through the Varroa screens. Coupled with that we have identified a few stocks that are 100% hygienic, that is they will clean out every cell that has larvae damaged by freezing with liquid nitrogen. There is no doubt that many beekeepers today are questioning the logic of importing sub-species of bees that are different to Apis mellifera mellifera as this just makes the hybridisation problem worse. We can improve what we have got, it just takes some good beekeeping to do this. As Adrian Waring told me many years ago, "If you only cull the worst colonies and re-queen from your best, your bees will improve". I hope these comments will be of some help. Albert Knight BIBBA Groups Secretary aknight@blackbees.freeserve.co.uk -- James Kilty ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 12:36:51 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tom Elliott Subject: Re: How Good is the Sugar Shake? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen, When comparing the sugar shake to the strip test you are comparing apples and oranges. You are on one hand testing a handfull of bees and on the other tens of thousands. A better comparison would be sugar shake versus ether roll. Since I have never dealt any of these tests or with mites, keep in mind that this is a purely logical analysis not a practical one. Tom -- "Test everything. Hold on to the good." (1 Thessalonians 5:21) Tom Elliott Chugiak, Alaska U.S.A. beeman@gci.net ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 08:41:33 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: sampling honey for AFB In-Reply-To: <200010131954.PAA15391@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > As far as I am aware, up to now sampling for spores, in an > operational way, has been restricted to drawing samples from drums of > honey. This kind of sampling is very easy to do, but provides > information on strictly an operation wide basis; perhaps a little too > gross scale to make disease management decisions on an apiary-level. There are reasons for this. Information costs money. If the cost of the information exceeds the useful value to the beekeeper or regulator, then the information is of academic interest only. The precision of such information is also a determinant in its usefulness. The cost of sampling increases linearly with the number of samples and the number of locations at which samples are collected. The overall accuracy of averaged results increases with more samples, but as the number of samples increases, the chance of mixing up samples increases also. This is particularly true if a number of people are involved, working at widely scattered locations such as in a commercial operation -- the type of operation that could best benefit from such sampling and which represents by far the bulk of American production and pollination. No price for individual hive sampling is presented above, but at $5 per sample, which I suspect is a very conservative estimate for the cost of collecting, collating, preparing and testing each sample, that would mean a $20,000 bill for one detailed pass over my current operation. That is a large expense, particularly since we can detect no active foulbrood or scale in our hives due to the work of previous researchers who developed effective, inexpensive and simple methods of control. That we cannot find AFB is not for a lack of looking. I have a reward of $20 *per brood box* for any employee who can find any AFB anywhere in our hives and they bring in anything that even remotely resembles AFB in hopes of collecting. Assuming that this test is useful in practice for someone such as myself, perhaps an apiary average sample would be the first step, followed by more detailed examination of any yard that shows signs of trouble. That approach also has its problems, not the least of which is that there is no definite correlation between sampled spore levels and subsequent outbreaks or understanding of how 'subclinical' infection can result in increased spore counts. This is particularly true where an effective medication system is being used. The honey bee's tendency to rob honey over a distance also confuses the matter as does the use of drugs and the genetics of the bees in question. Alarmingly, in concentrating on individual hive sampling for AFB at a time when we are threatened with an easily controlled variant of AFB, I believe I detect the influence of the idealism of people who walk upside down in a smaller and very different kind of world from the one I know. I have long been intending to write an article to question the conclusions in their yellow bible and its applicability to North America, but heresy is not an easy job; it involves a lot of hard work. The book in question relies on unpublished studies, easy sweeping generalizations, unsubstantiated assumptions and wishful thinking to prove its thesis, and the work involved in properly challenging all the logical errors in that book would be in the same order as writing a PhD thesis. Dealing with the topic properly would involve finding and proving or disproving all the points the authors did not have the time or will to deal with rigorously. Unfortunately for real understanding of the AFB problem, and partly I suspect due to its lack of rigour and the simplicity of its conclusion, the book has wide appeal to beekeepers and regulators and has been hugely popular. Like 'Lord of the Rings', has developed a cult following among those who wishfully seek overly simple solutions to complex problems and to live in a world of the past. Also unfortunately for those of us who are commercial beekeepers living in North America in the present, such ideas distract our researchers from the real problems in our real world. We don't need improved and more detailed sampling for after the damage is done. We need PREVENTION. Proven compounds are currently available and in unapproved use by beekeepers. We need approval for them. Now. allen --- A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/Diary/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2000 11:35:45 +1300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Nick Wallingford Subject: Re: sampling honey for AFB MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > very different kind of world from the one I know. I have long been intending to > write an article to question the conclusions in their yellow bible and its > applicability to North America, but heresy is not an easy job; it involves a lot > of hard work. For much the same reason, I wouldn't want to take on trying to reply to some of Allen's statements regarding the NZ condition, which he admits is another world to your own. It is, particularly in that we have not been feeding antibiotics to manage AFB for the last 40 years. Beekeepers here have a completely different mindset and set of skills to draw on in approaching AFB as an impediment to our businesses. I would, to some degree, probably find common ground in the phrase "applicability to North America" - the book (while perhaps interesting to North Americans and others) was simply not written primarily with you in mind... I will make one specific comment on one assertion: > The book in question relies on unpublished studies, easy sweeping generalizations, > unsubstantiated assumptions and wishful thinking to prove its thesis I'm not even sure it would be fair to say that the book puts forward a 'thesis' - rather, it (in relating to the conditions it was prepared for) describes a series of practical steps that can be taken to reduce and ultimately eliminate AFB as a problem within an outfit. Perhaps more importantly, the book relies only on things that have actually been done. And it references 35 articles and books - admittedly, there is one of them that has not actually been published! I would suggest the book is more scientifically based than more than 9 out of 10 other books about beekeeping topics... Nick Wallingford nickw@beekeeping.co.nz ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 10:14:11 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: T & M Weatherhead Subject: Re: Sampling honey for AFB MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen Dick wrote > 1. The above quote suggests that the bees, rather than the honey as Adony was > discussing, are being tested by the writer. How is this done? One method I have heard of is to collect bees, wash them and check the washings. There are other methods because back in the 1980's researchers in Australia were checking bees for AFB spores and finding them. Recently bees from feral hives have been checked to see if they have AFB spores on them. > 2. How are spores generated in a hive unless there is an actual breakdown of the > brood? Spores can be in the hive for years they tell us but it is more likely that they are the result of hygenic behaviour of bees where they remove the affected larvae before you see it. > 3. If there is such a breakdown, is this not visible to the eye? As I suggest it could be as a result of hygenic behaviouir. Dr. Marla Spivak has shown that she can introduce infected brood to a hive with hygenic bees and they will clean it up. It would be reasonable to expect that there would be spores present in that hive. For how long? I do not know. Also you have to consider that it takes thousands of spores, feed to a very young larvae to actually get clinical signs. We are told that once larvae get past a certain age, it is almost impossible for that larvae to surcumb to AFB. > 4. If spore generators have symptoms visible to the eye, is this test better or > more economical than inspection? It depends on what you want the test for. If it is to show the presence or absence of AFB spores in hive then it would be better than inspection. However, if you want to find out if you have clinical signs, then an inspection is a must. You cannot be a beekeeper would checking brood nests. You can however be a bee haver. The point to consider is that with a inapparent infection of AFB in a hive is it at some stage going to become an apparent infection? If so, then the presnce of spores detected early will be a benefit. What if the one of the bees you collect from the hive has drifted from another hive and you get a positive reading? It may not be carrying enough spores to infect a larvae and that hive may not be at risk. > 5. can spores be generated without any visible signs? If so, how does this > occur; what is the mechanism? As above, I believe they can be. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 16:44:07 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Barry Birkey Subject: Re: How Good is the Sugar Shake? In-Reply-To: <200010142001.QAA18755@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit > used. A quick glance reveals that the ratio varies from around 15:1 to > infinity:1. Several hive groups that gave zero results from sugar shake > subsequently yielded mites in the hundreds. If indeed these were accurate counts, this would prove to me just how unreliable and basically useless the sugar roll test is. I can get a more reliable test just by opening a few drone cells. -Barry -- www.beesource.com www.bee-l.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 21:48:15 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Kilty Subject: Re: Fondant In-Reply-To: <200010110457.AAA25241@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <200010110457.AAA25241@listserv.albany.edu>, Coleene E. Davidson writes > Could the bees process 80% solids (4:1) or would this = >be too thick? I find I can dissolve 2:1 with boiling water and a lot of stirring. I doubt if you could get it thicker. Can anyone say if usually the bees break the sugar into fructose and glucose or leave it as sucrose when it is fed 2:1. I remember Ron Brown once said that he thought bees always reduced the strength to 1:1 anyway before processing. In which case surely we stress them by demanding they collect water to take the syrup we give them? Any thoughts or better, evidence from studies? -- James Kilty ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 22:21:52 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Kilty Subject: Re: honey for health In-Reply-To: <200010110504.BAA25471@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <200010110504.BAA25471@listserv.albany.edu>, Robert Mann writes > In an intense surge of patriotism, I push diligently the >accomplishments of my friend Peter Molan: > http://honey.bio.waikato.ac.nz A worthy cause. He has done some fine work. I do wonder if it were applied to plants over here, the results on Manuka might replicated on at least the myrtle family. Who knows, there are many undiscovered treasures out there. -- James Kilty ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 10:42:12 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: T & M Weatherhead Subject: Re: Sampling honey for AFB MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen Dick wrote > No price for individual hive sampling is presented above, but at $5 per sample, > which I suspect is a very conservative estimate for the cost of collecting, > collating, preparing and testing each sample, The cost of the test in Queensland, Australia is A$16.50. With the state of our dollar, then it is cheap. > Assuming that this test is useful in practice for someone such as myself, > perhaps an apiary average sample would be the first step, followed by more > detailed examination of any yard that shows signs of trouble. That is the way it is often used in Australia. I wrote a while back about barrier systems. A barrier system, yard testing and, of course, brood inspection, will help you get on top of any AFB outbreak. > That approach also has its problems, not the least of which is that there is no > definite correlation between sampled spore levels and subsequent outbreaks or > understanding of how 'subclinical' infection can result in increased spore > counts. This is particularly true where an effective medication system is being > used. The honey bee's tendency to rob honey over a distance also confuses the > matter as does the use of drugs and the genetics of the bees in question. If you read the paper by Michael Hornitzky, he relates the correlation between spore counts in the honey and the likelihood of finding clinical signs. However, you raise the problem of where medication is being fed. This will cause a problem as you can get spores but not have clinical signs as the medication is supressing the clinical signs. > Unfortunately for real understanding of the AFB problem, and partly I suspect > due to its lack of rigour and the simplicity of its conclusion, the book has > wide appeal to beekeepers and regulators and has been hugely popular. Like > 'Lord of the Rings', has developed a cult following among those who wishfully > seek overly simple solutions to complex problems and to live in a world of the > past. And I suspect it does not appeal to those who want to carry on in the same way and not look at better ways of dealing with the issue. > We need PREVENTION. I agree but is the solution in medication? North America may be on the treadmill and not be able to get off but why should others, who are not on the treadmill, have to get on. > Proven compounds are currently available and in unapproved use by beekeepers. > > We need approval for them. Maybe as a short term solution but what of the long term? What happens when the feeding of medication is only able to be administered by a vet? The world is struggling with antibiotic resistance and I cannot see why we will not be caught up in this saga. Public sentiment is as such that it will happen even if there is no scientific proof. There is now resistance to present medication. What is the solution? Find stronger ones? What if they are not available? I think that there needs to be a radical rethink of how AFB is handled. If a country is not on the medication treadmill, then why criticise it if it does not want to go that way. I believe it can handle AFB without medication. Look to the future. You may still need to employ current methods in the short term but will they still be available in the future? Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 20:45:01 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tim Willeford Subject: Re: unlearned honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have a friend living in China and I forwarded this to her. She seems to think that they might have meant unpasteurized (raw) honey. Tim W. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 21:47:38 -0400 Reply-To: arl@q7.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Al Subject: Re: How Good is the Sugar Shake? In-Reply-To: <200010142003.QAA18774@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >We then immediately placed two Apistan(r) strips into each of the same tested >hives and inserted sticky boards with screens. The strips and boards were left >in the hives a minimum of 24 hours and a maximum of about a week (see data). Could the length of time the strips were in some of the hives made the Apistan tests look better? The week long applications in some hives would have resulted in a lot more of your emerging brood contacting the strips. I would say you have a good start to tell if the roll can give you any useful information. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2000 01:28:09 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Kilty Subject: Re: How Good is the Sugar Shake? In-Reply-To: <200010142002.QAA18771@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <200010142002.QAA18771@listserv.albany.edu>, Allen Dick writes >Board >P/u Yard Name Sugar Result Sticky Result >Date Shake (Mites) Board (Mites) > >O5 BCNE S28 0 S28 >0 >O5 BCSW S29 0 S29 >0 >O5 BCSE S29 0 S28 >13 >O5 Jahns' O5 3 O5 0 >O5 Taylors' O5 0 O5 >1 >O13 Vanovers' O10 0 O10 >28 >O13 KadarE O6 0 O6 235 >O13 KadarW O6 3 O6 235 >O13 ButlerW O10 0 O10 162 >O13 ButlerE O10 0 O10 41 >O13 Pisco O11 0 O11 >204 >O13 Hainsworth O11 0 O11 >63 >O13 Dixon Bush O11 28 O11 >421 >O10 Wilson O10 4 O10 >288 >O11 Dixon O11 8 O10 22 >O12 Beckwith's O12 5 O12 >72 >O12 Schlags Hill O10 0 O12 213 >O10 Schlag CS O10 0 O10 >2 >O13 Rattai O12 1 O12 381 > >Key: O13 is October 13, S29 is September 29 >I would be interested in comments from scientists and extension people as well >as beekeepers on what to make of this. I show the table as received. I don't find it easy to follow, but make an assumption I can read it. I suggest that there are 2 practical variables which cause problems. Firstly, and most importantly, where were the bees taken from in the sample of a cupful? Was it done in exactly the same way for each hive? In other words is the sample representative of all bees. If the mites for example are mainly on young bees in the brood nest, then a sample from outside the brood nest would have much less mites. If you can guesstimate the number of bees in the samples and the numbers of bees in the hives, you can determine if the ratio of 49 is about right or not. The second problem is posed by the small number of mites in the samples. 12X0, 1x1, 0x2, 2x3, 1x4, 1x5, 1x8 & 1x28 indicate such a low number that sampling variations make 0 quite common. So, multiplying factors cannot be reliable. Working back from your apistan figures you expect 8 from the Dixon Bush measurement, so 28 is larger by a factor of 3. Rattai is the other that is out of line with the ratio. The others are more or less what I would expect. Also, the ratio of 49 is very influenced by one count of 28! It would be much larger if this result were ignored. -- James Kilty ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 23:00:49 -0400 Reply-To: LibBEE@email.msn.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Garry Libby Subject: Re: Cappings In-Reply-To: <200010141929.PAA18374@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I saw one at Maxant in Ayer, MA it is approximately the size of an extractor and has screen walls to filter the cappings from the honey. In the center are knife blades that also spin with the blades angled upward to break up the cappings and disperse them evenly along the wall to avoid heavy spots that would make the spinner jump. I saw 92 year old Bill Maxant's honey house, He still maintains 30 hives and has a cappings spinner, He does not have a chain uncapper but uses a uncapping knife and uncaps directly into the uncapper. I was impressed with the results. The cappings were quite dry. Garry Libby Attleboro, Massachusetts, USA 41.56 N 71.17 W mailto:LibBEE@email.msn.com