From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 3 12:46:58 2003 Return-Path: <> Delivered-To: adamf@ibiblio.org Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by mail.ibiblio.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9316724ADC7 for ; Fri, 3 Jan 2003 12:46:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h03Fjr9v008596 for ; Fri, 3 Jan 2003 12:46:56 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200301031746.h03Fjr9v008596@listserv.albany.edu> Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 12:46:55 -0500 From: "L-Soft list server at University at Albany (1.8d)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0112A" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Content-Length: 217615 Lines: 4741 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 19:56:27 -0500 Reply-To: mpalmer@together.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: michael palmer Subject: Re: What other products can be used for wax moth control MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Hanlin, Steve" wrote: > The winter months are not a > problem in that we use environmental control because the equipment room is > unheated and uninsulated. I always have wanted to install a walk in cooler unit in my super storage area to keep the temperature low enough to prevent wax moth larvae from growing. Seems used ones might be pretty cheap. Mike ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 19:10:37 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Fischer Subject: Re: What other products can be used for wax moth control MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Steve J. Hanlin of the USDA said: > I am presently using para-moth (p-Dichlorobenzene) crystals... > Last week we were inspected by the University's "safety, health > and environmental" service... > The inspector also recommended that I contact other beekeepers > to discuss other products which can or are being used for the > control of wax moth. So my question is what other products > can be used for wax moth control? Gee, you mean that there ISN'T a USDA pamphlet on this subject? :) Here's my (incompete) list, from most expensive to cheapest: Temperature - As you pointed out, cold storage works wonders. Maybe you have a cold-storage facility there. CO2 - Works great, but it is hard to get a good gas-tight seal on a room, and harder to get a gas-tight seal when "wrapping" a stack of supers with plastic. Parasitic Wasps - ("Trichogramma") There are several sources, one being March Biological http://www.marchbiological.com They send you "cards" of eggs, which hatch out, and prey upon the egg and larval stages of the wax moth. Not cheap, but certainly non-toxic. Light and Air - Not a 100% certain method, but exposure to light and ventilation is said by many to do the trick. A couple of 100-watt fluorescent lights can brighten things up. Banana-Peel Traps - This does nothing for any wax moth eggs that might hatch out, but one can trap the adult moths with the old trick of a container with a banana peel, a cup of white vinegar, and a cup of sugar. Anyone else have anything? jim farmageddon ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 15:53:41 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Richard Yarnell Organization: Oregon VOS Subject: Re: Crystallizing honey In-Reply-To: <200111302336.fAUNa7315587@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Thanks George, but let's carry this one step further: If the pail is solid top to bottom, does the water equalize its distribution throughout the crystals? I would think, given enough time, that would happen. On Fri, 30 Nov 2001 GImasterBK@AOL.COM wrote: > You are correct. The liquid honey is now very liquid with water. --------------- Richard Yarnell, SHAMBLES WORKSHOPS | No gimmick we try, no "scientific" Beavercreek, OR. Makers of fine | fix we attempt, will save our planet Wooden Canoes, The Stack(R) urban | until we reduce the population. Let's composter, Raw Honey | leave our kids a decent place to live. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 00:47:22 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Fischer Subject: Re: What other products can be used for wax moth control MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Forgot one... There is (or rather, was) also a type of Bacillus thuringiensis that attacked wax moth at the larve stage, but the company that sold it declined to spend the money to re-register it in the US. Folks in europe use it all the time. Over there, it is called "BT-401". Sadly, they can't sell it to US addresses. I have no idea why the BT one can buy in the US to fight bagworm and other pests similar to wax moth would not work on wax moth, but I have not experimented with it. Any biochem majors out there that know details about the various types of BT? jim ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 20:07:18 -0600 Reply-To: john@outdoorplace.org Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Caldeira Subject: Honey storage temperatures MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Until recently, I thought that keeping honey WARM was a satisfactory way to store honey and avoid granulation prior to sale. Then I read in "The Hive and Honey Bee" book (Dadant, 1992, p 904-5) that temperatures above 81F (27C) caused the quality of honey to deteriorate more quickly. The relevant text appears below. The last sentence of each paragraph especially concern me: "White et al. (1962) made an extended study of the effects of storage at ordinary temperatures (23-28C, 73-82F) for periods of 1.5 - 2 years, with statistical evaluation of the results. .... Major changes were found in nearly all attributes: in the 2-year period 13% of the dextrose and 5% of the levulose were converted to other carbohydrates, the relatively low sucrose content was increased 73%, other disaccharide sugars increased 68%, and the more complex sugars increased 13%. Diastase decreased at a rate of about 3% per month, and total acidity increased about 0.5% per month." "All of these changes can be avoided by storing honey at low temperatures. For this purpose temperature should be 10C (50F) for unheated honey; great advantage will result from avoiding temperatures above 15C (59F). Actually, honey kept at very low temperatures for years cannot be distinguished from the freshest honey. However, the interval between 10-15C (50-59F) must be avoided because granulation is promoted with accompanying increased liability to fermentation. Storage above 27C (81F) should be avoided, even for relatively short times since deterioration in color, flavor, and enzyme content is particularly rapid." I am curious how other beekeepers are storing honey to maintain quality. Many sideline and hobby beekeepers such as myself are using a "warm box" or "warm room", but now I wonder whether the quality deterioration is significant enough to rethink this. Comments? John John Caldeira Dallas, Texas, USA http://www.outdoorplace.org/beekeeping ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 22:47:26 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dick Allen Subject: plywood frames Beekeepers: I've been making my frames from 3/8 inch plywood. Someone, somewhere once told me they thought plywood resin, even after being cured, could still give off vapors or volatiles or whatever they are termed. I don't quite buy it. Does anyone in the science community out there know anything about that? What are the chances that I'm contaminating my honey? Although the archives had some discussion on plywood hives, I didn't see any mention about using it for frames. Regards, Dick ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 01:10:36 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Garry Libby Subject: Re: What other products can be used for wax moth control In-Reply-To: <200112010550.fB15o1328197@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Beeworks in Ontario sells a BT product for waxmoth control. I have used it with great success, it is mixed with water in a spray bottle and sprayed onto the comb. www.beeworks.com Garry Libby Attleboro, Massachusetts, USA ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 13:44:24 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: P-O Gustafsson Subject: Crystallizing honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > From: Richard Yarnell > Subject: Crystallizing honey > > The pail I pulled, it turned out, was firmly crystallized on the top half, more > or less, and almost liquid at the bottom. The honey all came from the same > batch out of the extractor. > > It occurred to me that I don't know how honey crystallizes. In a jar, it > appears that crystals begin to grow randomly in the volume. However, in a > larger container, if crystallization begins (as seems apparent in the pail > I'm working on) at the top and works down, is it possible that the water > content of the still liquid volume is significantly higher than that of > the solid mass above it. Crystallization is complicated and depends on many parameters. When honey can vary a lot in composition it's impossible to give general answers. The crystallization process depends on a number of factors. Honey is a supersaturated solution that's going to crystallize below a specific temperature. Fastest crystallization will happen around 14° C, higher or lower temp will slow down the process. The amount of particles (pollen grain, dust, etc.) in the honey will also influence the speed. Crystallization is when sugar molecules moves together to form crystal patterns (simplified). Lower temp = higher viscosity, will slow the movement of glucose molecules and thus slow down crystallization speed. Mechanical energy will increase the speed of crystallization. We know it from stirring the honey to speed up the process. But what we often don't think of is that transporting honey can also speed up crystallization. Anyone more than me that wondered about why honey taken home for extracting crystallize quicker than the boxes left on hives? The bouncing around on trailer on the way home ad energy that enhanced the process. There is always small crystals in honey in the comb, even if we don't see them. They will act as "magnets" on the surrounding sugar molecules that will join to form larger units. No I doubt there is different water content in your pail. One answer can be temp. If it's standing on a concrete floor with a lower or higher temp than the air in that room you will get different crystallization speed in the top and the bottom of your pail. -- Regards P-O Gustafsson, Sweden beeman@algonet.se http://www.algonet.se/~beeman/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 11:52:57 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: What other products can be used for wax moth control Spiders. Peter Edwards > Anyone else have anything? > > jim > > farmageddon > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 06:10:00 -0600 Reply-To: ribac@wi.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Chasei Subject: Re: plywood frames MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You may want to research the Building Science literature on off-gasing of formaldehyde from manufactured building products. It has been awhile since I was involved in that area but if memory serves me correctly (a less frequent event as I age), exterior grade plywoods use a glue formulation that does on off-gas formaldehyde as readily as interior grade plywoods. There may also be an issue with any other VOCs (volatile organic compounds) which may be present in the glues. You may want to obtain a material safety data sheet for the glues used in manufacturing the plywood if available. VOCs will off-gas over a period of time (temperature and humidity dependent) so I suspect that your older frames should not pose any problem. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 01:31:06 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: What other products can be used for wax moth control Beekeepers: A message posted by David Brandon on Aug. 12 mentioned using tobacco leaves for wax moth control. In the archives typing in Tobacco leaves will bring up the post. Would pipe tobacco on newspaper sheets between hives or supers do the same thing? Regards, Dick ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 09:22:01 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Honey storage temperatures MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John Caldeira wrote: > Storage above 27C (81F) should be avoided, even > for relatively short times since deterioration in color, flavor, and enzyme > content is particularly rapid." > > I am curious how other beekeepers are storing honey to maintain quality. > Many sideline and hobby beekeepers such as myself are using a "warm box" or > "warm room", but now I wonder whether the quality deterioration is > significant enough to rethink this. Comments? This has been discussed in the past and as you note, heat or warm storage conditions do degrade honey. Here are two links on HMF, a good indicator of how the honey has been treated and is a measurement in many countries as to the quality of the honey. http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/hmf.html http://www.airborne.co.nz/HMF.html The final answer depends of if you are selling or it is for your own use. If for your own use and you like it, then there is little issue unless it is held in a warm state for more than a year then you might start noticing a difference in taste. I would be concerned about feeding high HMF honey to my bees, but not myself. If you are selling, then it depends on if you are selling "raw" honey or not. If you are storing it warm for a long period, you may be selling a less "raw" honey than someone who warms his honey during extraction or processing and you are shortchanging your customers. There have been and will be long arguments about "raw" compared to "processed" honey, but I am the kind of person who likes what I like not what I am supposed to like. I would rather have a "processed" fall honey than a "raw" summer honey just because the basic flavor of the fall honey is quite pronounced and different. Except for overheating, I have difficulty telling the difference between processed, especially flash heated honey, and raw. The only area I insist on unheated and stored cool honey is for medicinal uses of honey, for then heat destroys most of the beneficial qualities of the honey as does long warm storage. But for eating, which is how most of us use it, the criteria should be whatever pleases you however stored or treated (even though you are better off storing cool, even if it means re-liqifying the honey). Personally, I do not heat my honey and store it in my unheated basement. The fall honey will crystallize quickly, no matter where I store it and some summer honeys will remain liquid for years. It is really no trouble to re-liquify it. To do so, I use a box I made that keeps it below 120F and liquefies a 40lb pail overnight. I originally constructed the box as a dehydrator, so is dual use now. Bill Truesdell Bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 10:02:20 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: adony melathopoulos Subject: honey-pumpkin butter MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Honey-Pumpkin Butter (adapted from The City Gardener's Cookbook, by the P-Patch Advisory = Council, Sasquatch Books, Seattle, 1994) 2 cups cooked, pureed pumpkin =BD cup honey 1 teaspoon grated lemon zest* 1 Tablespoon fresh lemon juice* 1 teaspoon ground cinnamon =BC teaspoon nutmeg =BC teaspoon ground ginger 1/8 teaspoon ground cloves Combine in a saucepan and simmer, uncovered, over low heat, stirring occasionally for about 35 minutes, or until the mixture is quite thick. Test the consistency by dropping a small amount of the butter onto a = chilled plate. It should retain its shape and resemble jam. Store tightly = covered in the refrigerator. *I used orange instead. I also adjusted the seasoning to my taste. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 10:21:48 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: BeeCrofter@AOL.COM Subject: Re: plywood frames MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In new construction to outgas volatile chemicals they run the heat up to about 120 degrees F for a weekend. This removes the majority of funny gases from carpets, paint, particleboards , glues , resins and such. If you were to leave your frames in a warm spot for a while (In the hot sun) you would outgas most of anything left in the wood. Perhaps one of our list members with access to a gas chromatograph could put a few samples of plywood in a jar and see what outgasses. I bet the APA (American Plywood Association) has facts and figures on file somewhere. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 09:14:26 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ellen Anglin Subject: Re: What other products can be used for wax moth control In-Reply-To: <200112010546.fB15ka328044@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Beekeepers from the south have reported that placing wax moth infested supers over a fire-ant colony is a great way to clean them out. (The ants find the wax moths quite tasty.) I suppose if you stored them over a mound, the effect would be the same. Personally tho, I'd hate to deal with the ants...... Glad we don't have them here in michigan. Ellen --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Buy the perfect holiday gifts at Yahoo! Shopping. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 17:03:36 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: plywood frames MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Dick & all > I've been making my frames from 3/8 inch plywood. I made a batch of plywood frame sides about 25 years ago, most of which are still in use. They attract more propolis than planed softwood, but I think this is due to the type of wood grain rather than any glue problems. However the plywood that I used must have already been old... as it was 3/8" as opposed to 9 mm. Best regards & 73s... Dave Cushman G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.303 / Virus Database: 164 - Release Date: 11/24/01 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 20:50:52 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Howard Kogan Subject: unusually warm weather This autumn has been unusually warm in uptate New York. The bees are out most days and yet there is no apparent source of pollen or nectar. They are taking up water but that is all. As a new beekeeper my question is; should I do something like feed them sugar syrup? (Their honey store seem quite plentiful). ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 22:09:12 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: BeeCrofter@AOL.COM Subject: Re: unusually warm weather MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/1/01 9:31:07 PM Eastern Standard Time, holi@LOCALNET.COM writes: > As a new beekeeper my question is; should > I do something like feed them sugar syrup? (Their honey store seem quite > plentiful). If your hives are good and heavy you won't need to do much until you feed to stimulate brood production come spring. The bees are taking in water to dilute the honey thay have stored. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 20:50:33 -0700 Reply-To: Allen Dick Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Some anonymous remarks MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I think I understand what there are some experts/scientists that lurk > and do not participate. They cannot stand up to any challenge of what > they have accepted as fact and what experienced beekeepers might > challenge. It is much easier to think you have the answers than to place > them before a group of your peers and support them, especially if the > group has experience. It seems to me that this is exactly the kind of sweeping generalization that guarantees non-participation by many who might otherwise add a few worthwhile words and pointers to our list. Rather than being seen as a challenge -- as I suspect the above troll was intended -- most pros will see those words as an insult and a warning of how much work -- or abuse -- could come from incautiously contributing a few words of advice or well-grounded opinion, and make them glad they did not yield to temptation by joining in. How can members demand that someone else -- usually someone who has invested a lot of personal time, money and effort to learn -- take the time to dig up references when they will not bother to do so themselves? No one is obligated to do any such thing, or even argue a point for that matter. It is entirely proper to point out succinctly that work has been done and that literature exists without going into detail or providing the full text. It is an act of generosity to do any more than that. Surprisingly, many do take the time to try to repeatedly set things straight -- often without thanks. I thank them now. While it is easy to dash off an opinion piece or a troll, or quote dogma, it is much more difficult to write a thoughtful, researched piece about bees and/or their management from personal experience. This is particularly true when there are many conflicting and possibly confusing factors to consider. Such an effort can take hours or days of careful thought and writing (some of us take days writing and re-writing an article) -- and be rewarded by reams of quickly written, facile and ill-considered responses. I hope that those who have real practical knowledge will continue to give what they feel comfortable giving and ignore demands for more. > I am a bit bothered that the anonymous scientist could not post links or > names of studies that counter anything posted here.. Tough. He doesn't owe you or me or BEE-L a thing, but I think we owe him for his (private) aside which was relayed -- without his permission -- to the list. FWIW, I agree with him 100%. allen http://www.internode.net/honeybee/diary/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 19:26:00 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob Harrison Subject: Coumaphos Resistance documented Hello All, The Florida Beekeepers digest no. 386 came today. Laurence posted that Coumaphos resistant varroa has been documented in Florida. Also that Checkmite has been given a section 18 for the year 2002. Sincerely, Bob Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 22:13:37 +0000 Reply-To: pdillon@club-internet.fr Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Dillon Organization: HOME Subject: Re: Bee Sting Evolution - a barbed discussion MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob, You mentioned in your comments on the evolution of the sting of the honey bee, that the sting of the worker caste is barbed and the sting of the Queen's is not. In fact, the sting of the Queen is barbed - but at much reduced level - but barbs are present. So, it may be asked: Has the queen retained a barb structure closer to the "original" construction pattern, with workers developing more effective barbs later in the passage of evolution, or, has the queen lost the barbed pattern, which has been retained in worker bees? Possibly, a primitive stage occurred where the sting was similar for both worker and queen, with subsequent development of barbs in workers and "suppression" in the queen! Peter ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 09:02:14 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Subject: In search of a better bee... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed In search of a better bee... The quest for a better pollinator took Washington State researchers to Asia's Tien Shan Mountains. BY DR. WALTER S. SHEPPARD, Washington State University, Pullman, and DR. THOMAS R. UNRUH, U.S. Department of Agriculture, Agricultural Research Service, Wapato, Washington Neither apples nor bees originated in the United States. The ancestors of our cultivated apples are native to central Asia, while the homeland of the honeybee encompasses Europe, Africa, and parts of Asia. This means that the search for both new germplasm used in apple breeding and for the parasites and predators used to fight imported apple pests (e.g., codling moth and some leafrollers) takes place in the wild apple forests of present-day Kazakhstan, Kyrgzystan, and Uzbekistan. read the rest at: http://www.goodfruit.com/archive/Oct-01/feature8.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 11:54:49 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Fischer Subject: Re: plywood frames Comments: cc: "\"'DickAllen'\" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dick Allen said: > I've been making my frames from 3/8 inch plywood. Wow, you must have a lot of time on your hands up there in Alaska - we crank out lots of other woodenware on a table saw, but frames are the one thing we have never bothered to make. we can't justify the time that would be required. Maybe you have a design that makes for a much more simple frame, and faster fabrication. Can you post a sketch? > Someone, somewhere once told me they thought plywood resin, > even after being cured, could still give off vapors or volatiles or > whatever they are termed. I don't quite buy it. You should buy it. It is 100% true. "Outgassing" happens with ALL plywood and Oriented Strand Board (OSB) variations. The stuff being outgassed is one of two types of formaldehyde, not very nice stuff to have near wax and honey, and not nice for people to breathe, either. > Does anyone in the science community out there know anything > about that? Well, I can't claim any in-depth knowledge, but I do know this much, as I was forced to sit through lots of chemistry lectures, and I wire houses for Habitat For Humanity: a) Veneered plywood and particle board are loaded with a nasty urea-formaldehyde glue, and they are almost always coated with a formaldehyde emitting clear finish. b) Formaldehyde is a "suspected" carcinogen, meaning that it causes cancer in actual lab tests, but the building materials industry has been able to pay off enough politicians to enjoy the same "protection" as the tobacco industry enjoyed. c) Construction-grade (meaning "exterior") plywood and oriented strand board use a far less noxious phenol-formaldehyde resin glue. d) What blows my mind is that cheaper "exterior" grades of sheet stock (ply/OSB) use the phenol-formaldehyde, while the more expensive "interior" sheet stock use the urea-formaldehyde. So the stuff you use "outside", where there is lots of ventilation, is the less toxic version. e) When I wire houses for Habitat, I open windows, even in the depths of winter. I can smell the fumes, even though the only plywood in a Habitat house is the plywood subfloor. If I do not open the windows, I get a nasty headache, and I am not "sensitive" to most pollutants. > What are the chances that I'm contaminating my honey? Much higher than if you were plywood-free, for sure. The outgassing goes on for years, not days, not months. Do a web search on "plywood outgassing", and you can read about it. Again, I can't point to any specific beekeeping-oriented reference, but both types of formaldehyde certainly can be taken up by wax, and it is reasonable to infer that it can contaminate honey if the plywood frames are less than 4 years old. The bad news is that elevated temperature and humidity causes higher rates of outgassing, so the interior of a beehive would be the "best" place to see plywood outgass, even if one allowed it to "age" at ambient temps for a few months. At any one temperature, the plywood only outgasses to a certain point, which is why builders will often "cook" a new house by turning the heat up to very high temps for a few days. Their only concern is the smell - they want it gone, and it still smells bad even after the normal multi-month delays of mill, lumberyard, and the entire period of construction. > Although the archives had some discussion on plywood hives, > I didn't see any mention about using it for frames. I'm not sure a comparison between plywood hives and plywood frames would be "fair": 1) A plywood hive would present planar surfaces to the bees, while frames would present lots of edges. All those edges expose the glue layers directly. The glue is the problem here. 2) A plywood hive would have both "interior" and "exterior" surfaces, and, assuming that the internal hive temp would be above ambient, the outgassing would tend to be driven outward, given the general direction of the heat flow (heat loss through the wood to the exterior). The frames would outgas 100% of their fumes into the hive. 3) Even with a well-ventilated hive, think of the airflow, and you have the possible fumes being directed over capped cells and uncapped nectar and honey. As one goes "up" in the hive, one has the possibility of the combined outgassing of the frames below, which would elevate the possible formaldehyde level for the uppermost frames where your crop sits. 4) I don't know about you, but my super frames get much more wear and tear than my brood-chamber frames, and must be replaced more often. This means you may have more "newer" frames in supers than in brood chambers. Testing for formaldehyde is not very difficult. Any decent high-school chemistry teacher should have the equipment and skills required. You don't need a High-Performance Liquid Chromatograph, or a Gas Chromatograph, but they would be able to detect smaller levels of contamination, down to parts-per-million (GC), or parts-per-billion (HPLC). jim farmageddon (a circa 1922 brick structure) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 11:03:07 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Lost Posts to BEE-L MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Apologies... In the last week, there have been a number of technical problems at = several sites. As a result, some articles submitted to BEE-L have been = lost. =20 If you have submitted an article to BEE-L that you think fits the = guidelines (see http://www.internode.net/honeybee/BEE-L/ if in doubt), = and it did not appear in your inbox or digest, please re-submit your = article. =20 Hint: You can check at = http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/archives/bee-l.html if you are not sure = whether it was circulated or not. (Unless you have changed your = settings, BEE-L members accounts are configured to send you back a copy = of your own post along with the other BEE-L mail). Hint: Most email software keeps a copy of sent mail in the 'sent' or = "copies to self' folder, so look there if you decide to re-submit, to = find a copy of what you originally sent. Thanks for contributing to BEE-L. allen ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 12:36:09 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lee Gollihugh Subject: Re: stimulate brood production MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > If your hives are good and heavy you won't need to do much until you feed to > stimulate brood production come spring. When do you feed your bees for this stimulating in your area? Where do you live? In Deming, NM USA it is 56 F and clear. Great. and the bees are flying. Why do you do it? And what is the outcome of stimulating them? Regards, Lee ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 16:08:26 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: BeeCrofter@AOL.COM Subject: Re: stimulate brood production MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/2/01 2:49:34 PM Eastern Standard Time, nmbeekeeper@SWNM.COM writes: > When do you feed your bees for this stimulating in your area? If you want to capture the early honey flows you build your colonies up about 2-3 brood cycles or so in advance of those honeyflows. Over on Midnite Bee look for George Imries "pink pages" you will find a whole lot of usefull information there. http://www.mainebee.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 14:56:48 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: De Witt Subject: Wax Moth control MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have searched the archives and do not see the answer to these questions. I am getting ready to get my hives to winter size. I am pulling all frames with out honey pollen etc. and moving those that are partially full to other boxes to leave to the bees. (Oh buy the way, I am in north Texas and the first frost has come.) I am tired of reinstalling foundation every year and having the bees spend so much energy on rebuilding every year. Last year I relied on the very cold Dec. to kill the Wax moth It didn't work very well. Texas doesn't get that cold for that long. This year I am going to be pro active. I am using all Medium boxes, so I have taken a stack of four boxes using an old cover on the bottom and using pallet wrap have sealed them up, as tight as I can, I then put a 2" deep box that comes from a Baggie feeder and put that with a sheet of newspaper and four of the p-Dichlorobenzene urinal cakes, then 4 more boxes with another 2" box then a good lid and wrapped that up. My company throws out the cores of pallet wrap when there is between 3/4" to 1" on them the machines don't work well with less, so I get the wrap for free. My questions are, at long last, how many of the 4oz. cakes should you use for each supper? Should I put one cake on every super? Am I protecting the bottom supers too well and the top ones not enough? Inquiring minds want to know. Cliff ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 13:44:12 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: David Kraus Subject: Re: What other products can be used for wax moth control In-Reply-To: <200112010550.fB15o5328206@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Would it be possible to use a household freezer by rotating the frames periodically? How frequently would the frames need to be chilled to prevent moths? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Buy the perfect holiday gifts at Yahoo! Shopping. http://shopping.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 23:35:37 +0000 Reply-To: pdillon@club-internet.fr Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Dillon Organization: HOME Subject: Re: Wax Moth control MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cliff, Don't use PDCB at the rate that you suggest: - especially if it was designated for toilet use. -"My questions are, at long last, how many of the 4oz. cakes should you use for each supper? Should I put one cake on every super?" Even though in the past (last time was about 5 years ago) I have used this substance in protecting against wax moth - I never used it in such industrial quantities. Then, I placed a small sphere of about 1.5 cm diameter for 5 supers. Now, I am depending on the weather - leaving the piles of frames in supers out in the frost - so far so good. I suppose I loose 1 - 2% of frames each year to moth. Others may indicate their ideas. Peter ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 22:04:51 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Coumaphos Resistance documented MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello All, I received an update tonight from David Westervelt of the Florida Dept. = of Ag Apiary inspection department.=20 The Florida inspection department finished checking the hives I posted = about Dec. 2, 2001. I will share the departments findings with the list. Quite a large number of hives are involved. These hives were in Maine = but now are back in Florida for the winter.=20 Quote from David: "The mites/bees that were used in this test had only been treated with = Checkmite strips,1 strip in each hive for 42-45 days 1 time a year. = No other treatment for mites the last 3 years". Bob added: Although the above is on minimum level of label instructions I know = many commercial beekeepers treating as above. Coumaphos is not to be = taken lightly. You can always use less of a product but not over the = amount on the label without being in label violation. . David quotes; "We did find that the mites (varroa) had become harder to kill or = resistant somewhat. We had planned to start looking at mites in the = spring to see if resistance was starting but like normal the resistance = showed up first" David gives two possible reasons about "Why Florida again": 1. Because we got the strip first? Bob comment: I agree with Dave! Was bound to happen. Some researchers = will say the low dose caused the problem but I believe even those dosing = with coumaphos twice a year and with those using two strips a double = hive body hive will see coumaphos resistant mites before long. =20 2. Because Florida inspectors were looking for problems: Again I agree with Dave. If you don't look you don't find the problems. = I stood up at bee meetings and said I was seeing fluvalinate resistant = mites for about three years. Then about half the beekeepers stood up = and said "We treated with Apistan per label and all our hives are dead = from varroa"=20 The best method in my opinion is testing each hive (as per Dr. = Delaplane) and treat only those hives approaching threshold. I would = recommend to all beekeepers using Checkmite to start looking for = coumaphos resistant varroa.=20 I tested every hive for the three years after I found fluvalinate = resistant mites but have dropped the procedure the last few years. I am = planning on going back to the resistance testing program with every hive = this spring. Dave also said he believes all beekeepers and researchers in the world = need to share information to solve the varroa problem. I agree = completely! Dave's advice on the resistance problem: "We need to inform beekeepers that we have found mites that are becoming = resistant to Checkmite. Beekeepers need to make sure they do a pre & = post treatment mite check . If they start finding mites in the post = treatment they need to start looking for other treatments" I thank Dave for his work in helping beekeepers and like Dave believe = the information helps the most when delivered directly to the beekeepers = which desperately need the results of Dave's work. I respectfully post = the above with Mr. David Westervelts permission and hope the above meets = with his approval. Dave is very busy and I have spent a few hours on the = post myself. If other researchers want to email me research information = they believe would be of interest to the Bee-L list I would be happy to = post in my name to protect your privacy. I will not reveal the source = and only say the information was sent to me. Others on the list will = comment for AND against the information and maybe the comments will = help with your research WITHOUT putting your reputation on the line. Sincerely, Bob Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 21:20:05 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Steve Newcomb Subject: Re: Wax Moth control MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am using the urinal blocks for the second winter here in north-central Ohio. Last year I stacked my supers 10 high on a sheet of plastic, then placed one block on a 3" square of plastic sheeting on the top bars of the top super. I then pulled the plastic under the stacks, and wrapped whole stack in plastic sheeting and stored them in a barn. This spring, I had a little sticky residue from the block on the plastic square. I aired the supers for 5 days outside before placing them on the hives. I cross-stacked the supers up on blocks to allow maximum air flow. There was no odor after 5 days of airing. I noticed no rejection or other problems with acceptance by the bees. I averaged 118# per hive this summer. There was no taste or odor to the honey that I could associate with the blocks. I buy the blocks by the dozen at an institutional supply store. I pay less than 25% of the price I'd pay for a commercial bee supply version of p-Dichlorobenzene. The only difference is that the urinal blocks have some fragrance added. So far it hasn't caused me any problems. I'd like to hear from others about their use of this alternative source of p-Dichlorobenzene. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 00:01:20 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: waldig Subject: Re: plywood frames In-Reply-To: <200112021743.fB2HhY312834@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jim is absolutely right. A general rule with any synthetic adhesive is: if you can smell it, it will outgas or produce reactive fumes. I worked for a high tech electronics company where we assembled small, complex electro-optical systems in volume. The miniature assemblies were too small to use mechanical fasteners so we had to resort to inexpensive, robust adhesives to hold things together. Even after UV-curing (which causes adhesive deposits to skin over in seconds), the material would continue to outgas for some time. The assemblies could not be buttoned up for the risk of adhesive vapors coating precise optical surfaces. Units good at shipment time, could come back from the field with adhesive vapor deposits on optics and photodiodes ! This was a humbling lessons learned indeed. A number of adhesive chemistries will vaporize and readily combine with water vapor. (And we know the hive interiors do not lack water vapor !) Settling down on frames, the particles are sure to enter honey. You should take a look at some MSDS (material safety data sheets) for adhesives. Risks run from mild irritations to cancer. I would not want to eat honey from a hive that had plywood in it. No way. Plywood may be great on house floors but why go through all the care to produce good raw honey only to have it tinted by nasty chemicals ? Go all natural materials all the way. I hope the plastic material in Pierco frames is neutral and non-reactive... Next thing you know I will be asking for an MSDS on it. :) Waldemar >>The outgassing goes on for years, not days, not months. Do a web search on "plywood outgassing", and you can read about it. Again, I can't point to any specific beekeeping-oriented reference, but both types of formaldehyde certainly can be taken up by wax, and it is reasonable to infer that it can contaminate honey if the plywood frames are less than 4 years old. ---------------------------------------------------- Sign Up for NetZero Platinum Today Only $9.95 per month! http://my.netzero.net/s/signup?r=platinum&refcd=PT97 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 08:34:14 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Wax Moth control MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable -----Original Message----- From: Steve Newcomb [SMTP:slnewc@ALLTEL.NET] Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2001 8:20 PM To: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu Subject: Re: Wax Moth control Hello Steve and All, I see problems with Steve's method. Saving money is always on our minds = but what is the cost. Steve is taking chances.=20 Maybe the blocks will work and save Steve money but consider the *what = ifs* 1. What if a consumer allergic to para di has a violent reaction and the = source is traced back to a jar of Steve's honey? Lawsuit? Honey industry = scandal? 2. What if the FDA finds a label misuse. I know of a commercial = beekeeper which was fined $10,000 U.S.. for making his own strips with = sheep dip. 3. What if Steve poisons himself as many hobby beekeepers use most of = the honey themselves or give to family and friends 4. What if over time Steve contaminates the wax in his hives to a = point bees die and honey is contaminated making is drawn comb worthless. = I have seen this very thing happen with beekeepers using moth balls = instead of para di. 5. What if Steve's whole honey crop was contaminated with para di? = Whole beekeeping year lost honey not fit to even feed back to the bees. I can think of a few other points but think you get the idea. Steve wrote: There was no odor after 5 days of airing.=20 Properly used para di odor is gone within 24 hours. If it takes five = days to remove the smell in my opinion the dose is to strong. Hard to = tell about the fragrance chemical but sure it is not something I would = want in my food. Steve wrote; There was no taste or odor to the honey that I could associate with the = blocks. Sadly para di can be detected in honey but at a very low ppb level even = if applied properly. Para Di can be detected easier in wax and will = build up in wax.=20 Steve wrote: I buy the blocks by the dozen at an institutional supply store. I pay = less than 25% of the price I'd pay for a commercial bee supply version = of p-Dichlorobenzene. The only difference is that the urinal blocks = have some fragrance added. =20 The difference is the concentration in my opinion. From the post the = concentration seems higher and the fragrance is strong in these = blocks. Not worth the risk in my opinion.=20 Steve wrote: So far it hasn't caused me any problems.=20 I hope it doesn't as we all understand your wanting to save money. I = would however go back to using the registered product for the sake of = the pure name of honey. Steve wrote: I'd like to hear from others about their use of this alternative source = of p-Dichlorobenzene. I have never heard of a beekeeper using the blocks other than Steve = although we have all noted the blocks were mostly para di. Any others = want to comment?=20 Sincerely, Bob Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 05:55:41 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Barry Sergeant Subject: African bees - working a big hive with no veil or gloves Hi all You should be able to access photographs of pedigreed AM scutellata at the following web address: http://www.algonet.se/~beeman/za/za-1.htm The tens of thousands of bees in the hive are, of course, so-called African killer bees. The human in the pics is, fortunately, far from dead. These pictures were kindly taken by P-O Gustafsson, who was out in South Africa from Sweden to attend the recent Apimondia meeting. The pedigree scutellata queen in the pictures was instrumentally inseminated. One of the results of a seven year closed breeding programme, she was photographed happily laying an egg in comb exposed to open air. As pointed out in the captions to the pics, this line of pedigreed scutellata has been upsized to produce a worker cell around 5.2mm. These bees are docile, and outproduce wild/feral scutellata by at least 33%. As such, it may be stated that these are probably the most productive honeybees in the world. None of the bees you see in the pictures have been treated for any pest/disease whatsoever, be it varroa or anything else. There are other pics of South African beekeeping at: http://www.algonet.se/~beeman/ Just click on pictures, and then South Africa, etc. Best regards to you all Barry Sergeant Kyalami South Africa ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 16:38:15 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Samizdat=AE?= Subject: Re: What other products can be used for wax moth control In-Reply-To: <200112020121.fB21LC326106@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > Beekeepers from the south have reported that placing wax moth infested >supers over a fire-ant colony is a great way to clean them out. But isn't nourishing a pest (such as the fire-ant) unjustified if there are reasonable alternatives as have recently been pointed out on this list? R - Robt Mann consultant ecologist P O Box 28878 Remuera, Auckland 1005, New Zealand (9) 524 2949 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 22:10:53 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Rodney Farrar Subject: Screen bottom boards (Opened) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have just put screened (opened) boards on my six hives good idea or not? Rodney in VA ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 18:08:22 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Crystallizing honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Richard, I honestly don't know, but I do not think so. I believe the crystals in the lower part of the container will be a different crystal than the crystals in the top part. George Imirie ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 10:56:30 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Kyle Lewis Subject: Brood above Excluder Fellow Beekeepers, This summer I had brood above, and below my queen excluder. I had two medium boxes on the bottom for brood, and two mediums on top of the excluder. I found the marked queen in the lower brood chamber, but I could not find a queen in the upper box. I am a newbee, so it is still not easy for me to find unmarked queens. Is it common to have brood appear above a queen excluder? What could have caused it? The question is academic at this point, but I am rather mystified. I have since taken to heart the advice by Bee-L members, that queen excluders are an "advanced" technique not suitable for beeginners. I will also follow George Imirie's advice to use three mediums for brood. Happy Holidays to all of you. Kyle ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 12:22:55 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Brood above excluder MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Kyle asked "Is it common to have brood appear above a queen excluder? Wh= at could have caused it? " Yep...it is reasonably common. In my experience, perhaps 1 in 20. =20 There are at least a few possible causes: 1. A wire is bent and the queen can get up (and back down). =20 2. A new mated queen entered the box above the excluder. 3. A queen was accidentally moved above the excluder by the beekeeper. Don't let anyone tell you that WORKERS MOVED EGGS UP. I was once at a co= nference where several researchers and queen breeders were present. This= old wives tale (workers moving eggs) came up. The moderator asked for a= show of hands who had experienced workers moving eggs...NOT A SINGLE HAN= D WAS RAISED. When this happens to me, I look for the queen in the upper box. If I can= 't find her, I assume that the excluder has a bent wire (something that c= an be very hard to see) and discard it. Don't try to straighten it; it c= an be a frustrating job and rarely works. =20 Lloyd email to LloydSpear@msn.com http://www.rossrounds.com Lloyd Spear, Owner of Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacturer of round comb honey equipment and Sundance pollen traps ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 11:12:00 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Blane White Subject: Re: Coumaphos Resistance documented Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Everyone, Thanks Bob for the update on coumaphos resistance to coumaphos. I will only add one comment. Those hives that Dr Pettis found to contain coumaphos resistant varroa in the northeast US were treated successfully with apistan so at least at present it appears that switching back to apistan will give you an effective treatment but do remember to monitor after treatment to make sure the treatment worked. blane ****************************************** Blane White MN Dept of Agriculture blane.white@state.mn.us ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 12:05:21 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Kyle Lewis Subject: Brood above Queen Excluder Fellow Beekeepers, Last summer I had lots of brood above the queen excluder. I had two medium boxes below the excluder, with brood and marked queen. Above the excluder, in one (later two) mediums, I had lots of brood. I could not find a queen above the excluder, but since I am a beeginner, I could have overlooked her. How could I get brood above the excluder? The question is academic now,I suppose, but I am still baffled. The hive had an upper entrance--could a recently mated queen take up residence? I put some brood above the excluder when I installed it, to encourage the bees to move through the excluder. Could the bees have raised a queen above the excluder? I have since read on BEE-L that queen excluders are for experienced beekeepers, so I will likely not use them next summer. I will also follow George Imirie's instruction to use three mediums for brood. Your advice is much appreciated. Kyle ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 11:20:01 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jerry J Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Brood above Excluder In-Reply-To: <200112031654.fB3Gskv20451@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi: Just because they are called queen excluders doesn't mean that these devices exclude every queen. Plastic, wire, U.S., European excluders - makes no difference, we find queens above them. We've seen marked queens go through them, both up and down, as if the excluder wasn't there. You don't have to blame all of this on bent wires, the beekeeper, or gremlins. Remember, queens vary in size - excluders don't (although they do vary from different manufacturers. Queens also vary in behavior - some seem to be very much inclined to crawl through excluders, same as some cross honey arches and end up in the top box. I've seen queens at the top of a 5 or 6 box stack, with brood in the bottom box or the second box, and fully drawn frames in between, and she's up in the top, laying eggs. And, she may have recently laid eggs in both the top and bottom - so she didn't gradually work her way up. Excluders keep most queens where you want them to be. Larger beekeepers use them to reduce the need to inspect honey supers for brood - but some get through and end up in the extracting room. Depending on your locale, both commercial and hobbiest beekeepers may put on excluders to limit the queen's egg-laying. If you have early season nectar flows and then not much else, you may need to slow down the population growth - or else the bees will consume most of what they stored. Queen excluders may cause colonies to supercede queens - we've seen a lot of this in large apiaries - especially if the excluders are put on at the same time as extra empty supers during a heavy nectar flow. Personally, if the area has adequate carrying capacity (reasonably diverse and consistent nectar sources for most of the spring-summer-early fall, I prefer to not use them. Bottom line, they retard reproduction and population growth - so keep that in mind. That may be what you want/need to do. Cheers Jerry Jerry J. Bromenshenk jjbmail@selway.umt.edu http://www.umt.edu/biology/bees ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 13:58:42 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Virus Alert MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" There have been a number of viruses and worms going around that may or may not be targeting beekeepers, possibly BEE-L members in particular. Although the BEE-L subscription list is confidential (hence not open to broad spamming), individual addresses can be harvested from the archives and attacked. Many BEE-L members have reported attacks in the past few days, and these attacks can snowball and/or reoccur if the virus is sent on to other beekeeper's mailers. BEE-L subscribers (and anyone on the internet for that matter) should have an anti-virus agent installed on their PC and the agent should be updated regularly. I have received many "disinfected" messages in the past few days from my antivirus software. Beware! If you do not have antivirus software, get some! If you have antivirus software, make sure it is up to date. It is also advisable to run antivirus software to verify disks and directories you access. Aaron Morris - thinking safe computing! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 14:28:59 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: huestis Subject: extracting honey from brood chambers (USDA) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, Here is a clip of USDA paper from beesource.com: Extracting Honey from Brood Chambers The practice of extracting honey from brood chambers, which is used in = some areas, will increase the chance of contaminating honey with = medicants that have been fed. Under such conditions special caution in = use of medicants should be exercised. Well-managed strong colonies with = large honey reserves will consume several times as much honey, but they = will produce a surplus two to five times greater than small colonies = kept on bare subsistence rations. More often, use of brood nests larger = than are employed under some systems of management will increase the = size of the surplus crop. Thus, it may be false economy to extract honey = from the brood chambers to reduce the weight for moving. Comments( keying in on the part about using larger broodnests)? Clay ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 11:34:35 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Subject: Wax Moth control In-Reply-To: <200112030501.fB351jv01940@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Regarding Paradichlorobenzene (Para Moth) I would purchase ONLY crystals specifically labelled for use on bee equipment. It may cost a little more but you are exposing yourself to risk of fines and lawsuits if you use any formulation that is not labeled for bees. Furthermore, the label has the US EPA registration number and the instructions for disposal. It says right there that you can put materials that have been fumigated into a landfill. The EPA can't fine you if you follow their own instructions. I used to use burning sulfur fumes to fumigate my honey house. This may be less toxic than pdb, but sulfur fumes can destroy metal in the building. I think using pdb crystals is the safest and most effective way that is currently approved. The laws are meant to protect people and the environment. If you don't agree with them, try to get them changed -- but please don't take chances with chemicals. Even common chemicals can be hazardous, if used incorrectly. Peter Borst Ithaca, NY USA http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/plb6/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 13:39:56 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jerry J Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Virus Alert In-Reply-To: <200112031859.fB3Ix5v27607@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" The number and serverity of virus and worm attacks on our University systems increased dramatically after 9 11 01. One new variant hit on a Tuesday and crashed nearly every Windows-based Server on the campus. It wasn't untill Friday that Norton and others had a fix. So, 3 days down! Variants are popping up in double time - some hacker takes a know virus, and tweaks it into something a bit nastier - and the anti-virus software doesn't always recogize the modified virus. So, its not enough to install virus protection software. My newest software links to the Internet to get the latest virus signature updates once a week -- but also links if it receives something that it doesn't recognize. Its been doing that 2-3 times a week over the past month! Lesson learned, get a good anti-virus program that automatically updates - don't economize with a cheap or outdated program - you need those updates. Sorry Jerry Jerry J. Bromenshenk jjbmail@selway.umt.edu http://www.umt.edu/biology/bees ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 16:08:58 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Wax Moth control MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Para-dichloro-benzene (urinal deodorant cakes) only requires about one tablespoon of ground-up PDB for each super; and gaseous PDB is HEAVIER than air, so it is best to put 3-4 tablespoons in the TOP super if they are stacked. The normal use is stack supers about 10 supers high placing one tablespoon of PDB on top of the frames of each super, with more on the top super. Seal all the gaps between supers with masking tape. Check monthly during warm weather for presence of solid PDB, and renew when necessary. I have used ground up urinal cakes for years and have never had any wax moth damage. Just make SURE that the urinal cakes you select are made with PDB and not naphthalene moth balls are some other chemical. I hope that I have helped. George Imirie EAS Certified Master Beekeeper Beginning my 70th year of Maryland beekeeping Author of George's PINK PAGES ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 16:40:06 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Brood above Queen Excluder MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kyle, You answered your own question when you said that you put some brood above the queen excluder to entice the bees to go through. The bees above the excluder who were nurse bees felt that there no queen present and raised an emergency who went on her "nuptial" flight from the upper entrance and came back to "HER HOME" via the upper entrance and started laying. When transferring brood, you selected a frame with OPEN brood (eggs and larvae). If you had selected a frame of ALL CAPPED brood, the bees could not have raised a new queen. By the way, it was never me that discouraged beginners from using queen excluders. QUITE THE OPPOSITE, as a matter of fact, I think beginners are far better off using queen excluders. In spite of those that refer queen excluders as "honey excluders", Not only do I disagree with their analysis, but I want to positively know WHERE the queen is in a colony and NOT GUESS or HOPE. Thanks for trying to LEARN when you are a beginner. Too many people DON'T, and suffer all the problems that beeHAVERS seem to have. KEEP LEARNING!!! I hope I have helped. George Imirie Certified EAS Master Beekeeper beginning my 70th year of Maryland beekeeping Author of George's PINK PAGES ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 17:00:29 -0500 Reply-To: mpalmer@together.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: michael palmer Subject: Re: Coumaphos Resistance documented MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Blane White wrote: > Hi Everyone, > I will only add one comment. Those hives that Dr Pettis found to contain coumaphos resistant varroa in the northeast US were treated successfully with apistan so at least at present it appears that switching back to apistan will give you an effective treatment but do remember to monitor after treatment to make sure the treatment worked. I was told by this beekeeper that the mites treated by apistan were merely knocked off, and that because of the cold weather could not crawl back onto the bees. He wasn't sure if apistan would work for him in warm weather. Mike ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 17:12:48 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: dan hendricks Subject: Wax Moth Control MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, Cliff. I keep my frames in plastic garbage bags with PDB moth crystals. Since these bags are so delicate, I place the frames first in cardboard boxes. When I have old bags, too, I enclose the new bags in old ones for further protection. This system copes with the problem of trying to make a stack of supers more or less gas tight. I assume I'm responding to a small time beekeeper like myself because the big boys have all worked out their own system. In the suburb of Seattle where I live, the temperature cannot be depended upon for control, either. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Buy the perfect holiday gifts at Yahoo! Shopping. http://shopping.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 21:12:39 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: grumpy7 Subject: Re: What other products can be used for wax moth control MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Robert Mann, of New Zealand, wrote: > But isn't nourishing a pest (such as the fire-ant) unjustified if > there are reasonable alternatives as have recently been pointed out on this > list? Here in Louisiana, after more than a half-century of co-existence with fire-ants, we no longer consider them much of a pest. We still complain about them, out of habit mostly, but they're not really a problem, and they do provide some benefits such as a reduction in ticks, mites, and snakes. I'd say they've reached about the same level of resigned toleration as wasps and other ants. (Or American deer in New Zealand.) A new balance has been reached. There are many other things that are more of a nuisance, now. Our weather, for instance.. Anyway, we can't get rid of fire-ants so we might as well get some use out of them when we can. Letting them eat up wax-worms seems like a good idea. Walter Weller ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 13:12:18 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: BEE HAVER Subject: Re: Some anonymous remarks Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed > This ist best shown by the recent discussion of overwinterung on > different honey-sugar types. There are numerous scientific papers on > it... I thought that maybe it would be useful to fill in here for those who still wondering, after reading this whole thread, about winter feeding. There are lots of good articles on the topic in the archives and elsewhere, but to summarise: Honey and sugar are both equally good winter feed 1.) IF the honey is properly ripened, not fermenting, light in color, low in solids, not years old, and from a source that does not granulate hard as a rock or have other serious deficiencies. 2.) IF the sugar in question is a.) highly refined white table sugar and is clean, pure, and not from a source that is questionable. b.) properly fed in sufficient ime that the bees can store it as they would honey. Otherwise, the question gets more complicated, but here are some points to consider: * HFCS is is not quite as good as either good honey or sugar. * Some off-spec HFCS is deadly. * Some honey can be deadly, since it contains toxins, too many solids, or is too hard for the bees to liquefy. * There is room to debate subtle features of various honies, sugar, etc., but using pure sugar properly or good honey properly stored will give about equal success -- all things considered. No, I am not going to cite studies, or go over the whole discussion of every wrong way to feed bees for winter. Don't ask. Trust me. BEE HAVER _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 09:48:17 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Screen bottom boards (Opened) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" The Empire State Honey Producers held their fall meeting at Saratoga Springs this past Friday and Saturday. One of the featured speakers was Dr. Nicholas Calderone from Cornell University, who presented the results of studies they have been doing on screened bottom boards. When compared to "regular" bottom boards their studies indicated screened/open bottom boards showed negligible differences in 3 areas: fall cluster size, honey production, and VARROA CONTROL! When asked if screened/open bottom boards had an impact on over wintering due to improved ventilation, Nick responded that their studies did not look at that aspect of screened/open bottom boards. So, good idea or bad? Can't say. It depends on your expectations of the screened bottom boards. If you're expecting the screened bottom boards to be the solution to Varroa problems, Cornell's studies say not. Repeating, Cornell's studey says open or closed bottom boards make no never mind in all areas they examined. Aaron Morris - thinking back to the drawing board. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 08:27:49 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Small Hive Beetle MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello All, We have got another find of Small Hive Beetle. This time in Jefferson = County near DeSoto, The beetles were confirmed locally by Ray Nabors but are being sent to = Beltsville for final conformation. The *beetles* were found in hives = made from packages and in one locally made up nuc. All hives in the = yard were made up last spring. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 10:29:37 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Dangling Equal Signs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" The incidences of posts submitted to BEE-L with dangling equal signs at the end of each line has been on the increase. The dangling equal signs are actually incorrectly deciphered control characters for a "carriage return/line feed". In most mailers this can be corrected by sending submissions to BEE-L as "Plain Text". The path to configure mail as plain text can be found in most mailers as: Tools >-> Options >-> Send and then choosing "Plain Text" I do not know ALL mailers, but searching around in the "Send" configurations should yield a radio button which can be turned on the send submissions as "Plain Text". ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 10:42:27 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Screen bottom boards (Opened) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Aaron and All, Cornell's study says open or closed bottom boards make no never mind in = all areas they examined. Aaron Morris - thinking back to the drawing board. Thanks for the update Aaron. I am always amazed at many of these = studies. One reason why I like to do my own testing. I am curious why = U.S. testing of open mesh floors shows almost no help with varroa when = in Europe the OMF gets high marks. Although the OMF was never = intended to be the total answer for varroa as Dr. Shiminuki said it is a = tool for Ipm management similar to drone brood removal. We do know = beyond a doubt varroa fall off bees. We know certain bees groom off = varroa and drop those varroa mites. We also know varroa WILL reattach = to another bee UNLESS the varroa falls through a screen and is about a = inch away from the incoming bees. Although I do not own a OMF I still = have a hard time discounting OMF all together. With Coumaphos resistant = varroa found in Maine and Florida and the next chemical with at best a = upper 50% control we may need every tool we can find to survive varroa. = Although I am on the SMR bandwagon I still do not see SMR bees as the = total answer. To put things bluntly I do not see breeding alone as the = answer. I could be wrong and we will not know for sure about SMR queens = for a couple years. Dr. Shiminuki a researcher I always held in high = regard although we had our disagreements always said "there may not be = one solution to varroa but rather a combination of methods." I agree = with "Shim" but hope a simple solution to the varroa worldwide problem = is found. So far Dr. Carlderone, Dr. Caron (OMF 10% control at the lecture I = attended two months ago) and Dr. Delaplane have all given the OMF low = marks in the U.S.. In Europe the researchers seem to rate the OMF as an = IPM tool much higher. Why? I have not tested OMF yet. Maybe I should. Sincerely, Bob Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 12:44:44 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Making BEE-L more private MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Due to the virus/worm attacks over the past few days, I have tightened the configuration of BEE-L. I have made the list and archives confidential, meaning they are only available to list members. In the past, only list members could submit posts to the list, but anyone could request the archives and anyone could participate via the web interface to BEE-L. I have changed that and made the list archives and web interface available only to subscribers. I am not happy about these changes, but feel a fiduciary responsibility to list members to protect them from attack. This also may amount to locking the barn door after the horse has left. Please let me know via private email if these changes cause problems. Sincerely, Aaron Morris BEE-L Owner/Editor ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 11:02:11 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: waldig Subject: Re: Screen bottom boards (Opened) In-Reply-To: <200112041451.fB4EpEv29135@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Did Dr. Calderone say if the negligible differences showed at least a trend towards 'better' or 'worse' in those 3 areas ? I would think that if the open bottoms offer an even slight improvement, they'd still be worth using. Every little bit helps. Waldemar >>Dr. Nicholas Calderone from Cornell University, who presented the results of studies they have been doing on screened bottom boards. When compared to "regular" bottom boards their studies indicated screened/open bottom boards showed negligible differences in 3 areas: fall cluster size, honey production, and VARROA CONTROL! When asked if screened/open bottom boards had an impact on over wintering due to improved ventilation, Nick responded that their studies did not look at that aspect of screened/open bottom boards. ---------------------------------------------------- Sign Up for NetZero Platinum Today Only $9.95 per month! http://my.netzero.net/s/signup?r=platinum&refcd=PT97 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 19:47:28 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Russian queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >From the Norlandbeekeepers list: --- From: Dennis Murrell Date: Sun Nov 25, 2001 10:13 pm Subject: Re: [Norlandbeekeepers] Russian Bees Hello Joe and Everyone, I have raised Russian queens from one Primo from Bernards and four AI almost primos from Glenns. They have represented most of the Russian lines( anotated by different colors) available. I noted alot of difference between the different lines. They are all generally a conservative breed and brood up early, much to your liking. One of the lines would maintain supercedure like queen cells throughout the active brood rearing season even though the queen was performing well and no efforts other than the cells were made to replace her. When a queen was lost in one of these hives the bees would construct 25 to 40 queen cells along the bottom edge of most brood frames resulting in hundreds of queen cells. That's a great characteristic if you are raising queens. It appears that these bees may exhibit a greater degree of thelytoky . I have had chronically queenless hives construct 20 to 30 viable queen cells along the bottom of a brood frame when only sealed brood was available in the hive. When these bees do decide to supercede, they are not easily satisfied and supercede and supercede and supercede, a tendency I have noted with SMR X SMR bees also. Varroa mite resistance was great. The infestation levels never got above the single digits during the first year. They stayed about the same at april levels while the rest of the hive levels continued to greatly increase. I gave a split of Russians to a beekeeper in an isolated location(no other hives within 6 miles). Treating this hive with powdered sugar late in the season failed to drop a single varroa mite! I have written on other lists about my experience with the temperament of the Russians so I will be brief here. Their defensive behavior was unique enough to allow me to identify any of my hives with Russian influence. Head butting, hair pulling, excessive following, and a large defensive zone(100') precluded these bees for urban or suburban use. They were not aggressive stingers unless the hive was disturbed, and they are very easily controlled with smoke. I initially literally laughed at their defensive behavior, but I frequently spent alot of time in the bees raising queens commercially and it became apparent how annoyingly effective it was. Working bees that just sting was a relief. If you work your bees are in a rural location and worked occassionally their defensive behavior shouldn't be a problem. I lost half of my Russian hives to trachael mites last winter, althought others have reported tracheal mite resistance with these bees. I do not treat my bees for tracheal mites. These bees are very interesting and have many good characteristics. I am currently focusing on the SMR bees as my experience indicates they carry about half the mite load of the Russians and their defensive behavior is more suited to my temperament. I am regressing all of my hives to 4.9mm cell size and over 90% of my Russians drew 4.9 cell size off of 5.4mm cell size at the appropriate time of the year. The affects of small cell size have been amazing but that's another subject. Another very conservative bee that might interest you is the Carniolan selected by Ohio Queen Breeders and distributed by Koehnen in California. They are the most conservative bee generally available today resembling the Carniolans available 30 years ago. I have found a few percent of the New World Carniolans will also behave like these. Another source of very conservative bees is Kirk Webster in Vermont. He is a HIP breeder and has experience with the Russians. He would be a great person to get in touch with(contact me off the list if your interested). Best Wishes Dennis Murrell --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.303 / Virus Database: 164 - Release Date: 24/11/2001 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 19:57:12 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Fwd: Re: Russian Bees and Small Cells MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit More from the Norlandbeekeepers list: --- From: Dennis Murrell Date: Mon Nov 26, 2001 8:24 pm Subject: Re: [Norlandbeekeepers] Re: Russian Bees and Small Cells Hello Robert and Everyone, < May we have some details? Your environment is so different from Dee's that it would be really interesting to compare