From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 07:36:41 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-81.0 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,ADVANCE_FEE_2, AWL,MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,MILLION_USD,SARE_FRAUD_X3,SARE_FRAUD_X4,SPF_HELO_PASS, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Delivered-To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id C723B48ED1 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 07:28:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SCP3s2010167 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 07:28:39 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 07:28:37 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0202B" To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Message-ID: Content-Length: 237723 Lines: 5179 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 14:15:42 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: rtaylor421 Subject: Bee Keeping Industry Comments: cc: Diana Biering MIME-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have only been a beekeeper for 11 years. I remember taking my = beginning beekeeping class. There was discussion around the pest Varro = mite and Trachea Mite. There was discissions of the treatments. I remember getting my first hive tested for Varro and then learning that = my super had been possibly contaminated becuase it was not pulled off = during the testing. Then I ralized we had problems. I have been working bees and serving as a local beekeeping organization = president and as Presuident of a state organization. In 1998/99 I was = working 88 hives for polination of watermelons. A black insect appeared = and no one really got excited but within 6 months 80 hives were = destroyed by the small hive beetle. Yes,a very expensive control were = developed and recommended. When you listen to beekeepers who did all of = the right things and wind up losing their hives, you start asking = yourself the questions, why spend all of the money on treatments when = you probably will lose the bees anyway. Where were these bee labs. Why = do we have to depend on chemical companies who charge such a high price = for treatments that may not work. Maybe the budget makers look at how = much was being spent and how much was being produced. Are we any better = today than we were 10 years ago. We still have the same problems with a = bigger threat. For the last 4 to 5 years our local organization has = picked up 200 to 300 packages of bees for current and new beekeepers. = This year the order came to less than 50. Does this tell us that we = have a major problem with beetles. It does not appear to go away. Ron Taylor Cottageville SC ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 22:14:46 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ainars Millers Subject: honey trade marks MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-4" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear bee-lovers! I would like to ask information about organisation of national or local honey trademarks (official trademarks of Beekeepers Associations). What is the experience of beekeepers worldwide in protection of local honey production? I know that in Germany since 1925 is a trademark "Echter Deutscher Honig" (Real German Honey) and it is quiet succesful. Are there similar trademarks in other contries? I understand that markets are very different and not all tools can be used everywhere. I believe also that there are many countries represented on the list and the members can give clear picture how the rest of world is handling. >From my side a small information about current situation in Latvia. We have 50.000 hives and about 3.000 beekeepers. Average net yield -15-20kg/hive Population- 2.4 Millions. In the market we have a lot of honey packed in Germany and Danmark (mostly origin of China, Russia and Hungary). Latvian honey is more expensive and the retail price is USD 6-8, imported honey USD 2-4. Since 2 years we have a trademark "Ievaakts Latvijaa"(Collected in Latvia) In fact, it is more a label than trademark. Beekeepers can use their own jars and labels and national label is sticked only on the cover. The picture of the label can bee seen on website of Latvian Beekeepers Association http://www.ltn.lv/~bb/LBBreg2.pl?engl/Zime&lang=en To get the labels, the beekeepers should make an agreement, pay a small fee to Beekeepers Association of Latvia (USD30) and pay for labels (1pc-USD 0.01) Of course, this cannot cover advertising costs and ,in fact, the advertising is not carried out. Many thanks in advance for information! With best regards from Latvia Ainars ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 15:03:29 -0500 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Closing of bee labs. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Harrison said: > The closing of bee labs in part is coming from long > term projections for a huge reduction in commercial > beekeeping in the U.S. over the next ten years. > The most recent prediction of gloom and doom came > from the excellent lecture given by world renown > economist and sideline beekeeper Dr. Gary Shilling While cries of "the death of beekeeping, film at 11:00" are attention-getting, such a position assumes that no solutions will be found to any of the problems the industry faces. The posture also ignores the fact that beekeepers face exactly the same problems planetwide, and the country that solves the problems gains a significant edge over those who do not. With all the talk about "homeland security", one would think that some tiny fraction of the "security" funds might be allocated to assure that the US continues to produce so much food that we can continue to afford to use it as a tool of diplomacy. Which is more critical - food or oil? Which gives one more leverage? Cutting research funding makes the "prediction" of the death of US commercial beekeeping a self-fulfilling prophesy. It is a self-inflicted gunshot wound. Anyway, the opinions of economists about the future are about as useful as a deaf person's opinion of music. Economists practice a form of divination known to those of us in the hard sciences as "retroactive clairvoyance". They can make up tidy explanations for why something happened, but they never seem to be able to predict any single trend or event in advance. A good example is the sudden movement of the US stock markets from the stratosphere to the dumpster. If economists are so smart about finance and business, why didn't they see that one coming? Why aren't they the richest people on the planet? Isn't "money" supposed to be their area of expertise? > The next two big problems pointed out by Dr. Shilling are: > Protectionism WILL NOT protect the American Beekeeper > from the problem of low price foreign honey. This "news" is as old as the Greek city-states. Protectionism has NEVER worked in the long haul. No surprise there. Protectionism is a Band-Aid. But how does one solve this problem? Clearly, one needs to somehow reduce labor and cost per hive. How we gonna do that? How does one solve ANY problem? RESEARCH!!!! > The next mark is coming over the next 2-to 3 years > when coumaphos resistance ravages commercial > operations... Again, the only way to solve the pest problem is (all together now) RESEARCH!!! > when hive losses mount to the 50% range neither honey > can be produced or bees rented for pollination in amounts > needed to keep the business solvent. Sounds like a problem. Want to solve a problem? Any problem? Its not that hard: a) Get some really bright, well-educated people together b) Toss in some money for microscopes, computers, test tubes, Nerf toys, whatever c) Explain your problems, and ask nicely if they will think about your problems. d) And then LEAVE THEM ALONE Bake for periods ranging from months to years at 375 degrees, and voila! The solution is ready to serve to party guests. Yes, it is just that easy: Brains + Money + Time = Answers Want answers faster? Toss in more brains and more money. Is the process a "gamble"? No, it is a statistically certainty that useful ideas will result, often sooner than expected. The litany of problems recited by Dr. Shilling is nothing more than a list of clear and compelling reasons why MORE research funding is justified under the current circumstances. Anyone who wants to declare beekeeping "dead" is ignoring a basic trait of man - given two rocks, man will bang them together just to see what happens. After a while, man has an edged tool. He them promptly starts to use that tool to make a better tool. Given time and enough rocks, man makes enough tools to get us where we are now, which beats the heck out of living in caves. But we still have time, we are no less curious, and there are lots of things still needing to be "banged against each other". So, the trick is to KEEP banging the rocks together, a cony old saying that, like many old sayings, happens to be true. jim ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 15:03:53 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Kyle Lewis Subject: Direct Introduction of Queens Fellow Beekeepers, We have talked about multiple queens in the same brood chamber. I'm only a beeginner, and have only raised one queen that I know of (it was an accident). But it seems to me that there is a great advantage to smoking in a virgin queen into a colony with an existing laying queen. There is no mating hive to mess with. Building, maintaining, stocking, feeding, and storing mating nucs sounds like a genuine nuisance. It is probably a necessary evil for those who sell queens. But for your own queens, which you are going to plant in your colonies anyway, why not introduce them directly as virgins? If I understand right, the virgin queen emerges from the cell into a cage. (in a cell-finisher colony). You remove the cage with the new queen and approach the hive to be re-queened. (You mark the queen.) You smoke the hive heavily through the bottom entrance, open it up and let the virgin queen out of the cage. The heavy smoking fouls the bees sense of smell so that the old queen and the workers accept the new virgin. She mates and takes up her motherly duties. There is no down time as the new queen gets started. Dee, is that correct? I know you have written about this in the past. Could you give us the URL reference? What is the success rate? How can we fail? I imagine you lose a few new queens on their mating flights. Thank you for sharing this technique with us. Kyle ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 08:43:47 +1300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robt Mann Subject: Re: Closing of bee labs. In-Reply-To: <200202071739.g17HdDA27289@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >>Dr. Shilling said >> since the turn of the century the American Farm has become 17X more >> productive in spite of a 80% loss of farmers. In the early 1970s two separate groups researched this type of question in the USA, led by Eric Hirst at Oak Ridge and John Steinhart at U Wisc, Madison (the latter pubd in _Science_). They independently concluded that although the farm population had sunk markedly (glimpsed in e.g. Steinbeck's The Grapes of Wrath) the total labour in the USA food SYSTEM had not. "Yesterday's field hand is today's canning factory worker, tractor mechanic, or fast food carhop" - if I recall accurately Steinhart's memorable summary. > Beekeeping however saw its >> big productivity changes in the late 19th century and hasn't see real >> productivity change since. The term 'productivity', and even more the term 'efficiency', should always be scrutinised. They are ratios - but from one use to another their defns vary. One has to take care to be clear what is being defined e.g. labour per unit material produced, or labour per dollar profit, or labour per dollar of capital. Unfortunately, all of these defns have been used, and it is not always evident which is meant. Wielders of the depraved trade known as economics are good at sleight of hand in changing defns, unannounced, to suit their clients' purposes. I don't suggest anyone was pulling such stunts on us; I merely point out ambiguity. R ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 16:04:24 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Rick and Kathy Subject: Re: Closing of bee labs. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This came to me by circuitous route for inclusion in our state beekeeping newsletter. I believe the original author was Troy Fore. In addition to our own state's senator(s) and Representatives - these would be some good folks to lobby for keeping the be labs open. pass it on... HOUSE APPROPRIATIONS COMMITTEE: Subcommittee on Agriculture, Rural Development, Food and Drug Administration, and Related Agencies 2362 Rayburn House Office Building Washington, D.C. 20515-6016 REPUBLICANS DEMOCRATS Henry Bonilla, Texas, Chairman Marcy Kaptur, Ohio James T. Walsh, New York Rosa DeLauro, Connecticut Jack Kingston, Georgia Maurice D. Hinchey, New York George Nethercutt, Jr., Washington Sam Farr, California Tom Latham, Iowa Allen Boyd, Florida Jo Ann Emerson, Missouri Virgil H. Goode, Jr., Virginia Ray LaHood, Illinois SENATE APPROPRIATIONS COMMITTEE: Subcommittee on Agriculture, Rural Development, and Related Agencies SD-136 Dirksen Sedate Office Bldg. Washington, DC 20510-6026 DEMOCRATS: REPUBLICANS: Herb Kohl, Wisconsin, chairman Thad Cochran, Mississippi Tom Harkin, Iowa Arlen Specter, Pennsylvania Byron L. Dorgan, North Dakota Christopher "Kit" Bond, Missouri Dianne Feinstein, California Mitch McConnell, Kentucky Richard Durbin, Illinois Conrad Burns, Montana Tim Johnson, South Dakota Larry E. Craig, Idaho Patty Murray, Washington ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 15:48:08 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Adrian Wenner Subject: Bees of the Americas? Comments: cc: rwthorp@ucdavis.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" We have now had a great deal of input about the first arrival of European honey bees in North America. Unfortunately, some individuals published heresay during the 1700s and 1800s, statements that later came to be viewed as fact. For instance, a Rev. Belknap had claimed that Columbus had brought over the first Apis mellifera colonies. Gould and Gould, picked up that notion in their book, THE HONEY BEE. However, in 1793 Benjamin Smith Barton (not the Barton Smith we know) published a scholarly refutation of that idea in Volume 3 of the TRANSACTIONS OF THE AMERICAN PHILOSOPHICAL SOCIETY (Those interested can find the full reference on p. 19 of the January 1968 issue of the AMERICAN BEE JOURNAL). The foremost researcher of these issues, Dr. Eva Crane, covered the topic in her books (A BOOK OF HONEY and THE ARCHEOLOGY OF BEEKEEPING). In the latter volume she wrote (p. 33): "Like Australia, the Americas have no native honeybees (Apis), but some of the tropical areas are rich in the social stingless bees or Meliponini (Fig. 2). These bees, especially species of Trigona and Melipona, have been widely hunted for their honey and also kept in hives. There is a comprehensive book on them [by H.F. Schwartz]. North America has many rock paintings (pictographs) and petroglyphs, and Wellmann published a comprehensive study of them [in 1979], but there are no clear indications of any relationship with [European honey bees]." .... "Hives of European honeybees were shipped to North America from 1621 onwards. The bees prospered, and gradually colonised North America except for the far north [and West], a process that was speeded by the many nesting sites for wild colonies in hollow trees of the wooded areas, and in the later nineteenth century by direct shipments to the west coast. In British Columbia the bees spread rapidly through the forested regions." As far as I can recall from my readings, the first Apis bees to arrive in the United States was at the Virginia Colony in 1622, as evidenced by a ship's manifest. The American Indians knew of the honey bee as "the White Man's fly," in that the appearance of honey bees in their region meant that settlers would not be far behind. Such a term also indicates that the Indians knew nothing about Apis before that time. None of the above covers the POSSIBILITY that the Spaniards could have ALSO shipped bees to central Mexico and that the padres could have then transported them along one or another of the chains of Missions. Quite clearly, though, such bees had not reached California by the 1800s (as indicated in my earlier posting on this list). Another interesting point: Eva Crane also wrote in her archeology book (p. 63): "Probably the Yucatecan hives, and their positioning, were developed on the peninsula by stages that we shall never know. But accumulated evidence shows that there must have been contact between the Mediteranean and America in very early times, and it is worth raising the possibility that the Yucatecan system could have originated in some early traveller's imperfect description (or a description imperfectly remembered) of stacked horizontal cyclinder hives in Egypt or elsewhere." Adrian Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home phone) 967 Garcia Road (805) 893-8062 (UCSB FAX) Santa Barbara, CA 93106 [http://www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/index.htm] ***************************************************** * * "We not only believe what we see: * to some extent we see what we believe." * * Richard Gregory (1970) * ***************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 21:28:29 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tim Vaughan Subject: White man's fly I found the source of the "White man's fly" quote, although it seems to me clearly made up to teach a politically correct stereotype rather than a sterling example of honest scholarship. John Burroughs wrote: "The Indian regarded the honey-bee as an ill-omen. She was the white man's fly. In fact she was the epitome of the white man himself. She has the white man's craftiness, his industry, his architectural skill, his neatness and love of system, his foresight; and above all, his eager, miserly habits. The honey-bee's great ambition is to lay up great stores. " Warmest regards from chilly California Tim Vaughan ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 08:06:04 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Bee Keeping Industry In-Reply-To: <007b01c1b00b$d728f900$79d490cf@w2n5p1> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Ron Taylor writes: >Are we any better today than we were 10 years ago. We still have the >same problems with a bigger threat. It is easy to look at one's own problems and think they are the worst, but the beekeeping industry is not alone in this. Varroa and the small hive beetle are particularly difficult because they are invasive species. There is no one to blame, really. The world just keeps getting smaller and more crowded. >INVASIVE SPECIES > >America's forests and other ecosystems are threatened by invasions >of exotic species of insects, disease pathogens, and plants. >Already, insects, fungi, and disease pathogens introduced from >Europe and Asia have damaged 70% of the 165 million acres of forest >in the Northeast and Midwest. Exotic weeds infest a total area as >large as Texas; they are damaging half our National parks and 60% of >preserves managed by The Nature Conservancy. Invasive exotic species >threaten nearly half of all America's imperiled species. > >Every day, new species are brought into the country -- species that >may prove to be as harmful as those already wreaking such havoc. >Many come in as unwanted "hitchhikers" on various types of cargo, >including on imported logs, lumber and wood chips; in wooden packing >crates and pallets; on imported plants, fruits, and cut flowers; in >ships' ballast water; even attached to the ships and planes >themselves. http://www.americanlands.org/forestweb/invasive.htm ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 09:04:49 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tim Arheit Subject: Collecting bees for apitherapy. In-Reply-To: <200202081214.g18CEKA01442@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Anyone have any tips and trick on collecting bees in a jar for use with apitherapy, especially during the winter months? I've had my first request to provide bees for treatment of MS and I'm a little unsure how to proceed (how to collect, price to charge, etc.) During the warmer months it should be relatively easy, but the winter can pose a problem. It does typically get warm enough every few weeks for the bees to take a cleansing flight, so harvesting should be possible. -Tim ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 11:00:24 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: grumpy7 Subject: Re: Collecting bees for apitherapy. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Collecting bees for apitherapy. Tim Arheit asked: > Anyone have any tips and trick on collecting bees in a jar for use with > apitherapy, > especially during the winter months? My suggestion is: DON'T! I have too much lawyer in me to recommend that anyone accept the risk that the recipient of his well-meaning gift of bees might have an extremely adverse reaction to bee venom. Perhaps MS patients, who have messed-up immune systems to begin with, are more likely than others to react catastrophically. Walter Weller ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 08:17:58 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: Collecting bees for apitherapy. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Tim & All, > Anyone have any tips and trick on collecting bees in a jar for use with > apitherapy, Put your jar so the mouth covers the top entrance and tap just a little so only a few bees crawl into the jar, slide the jar away and screw the lid on. It may take some practice to get it right, try not to jar the bees to much so you don't stress them to much. > especially during the winter months? Dedicate one hive for this because you might lose it to stress. > I've had my first request to provide > bees for > treatment of MS and I'm a little unsure how to proceed (how to collect, > price to > charge, etc.) Make sure this person has seen a doctor or homeopath that prescribes bee venom. You might want to request a doctors note, for their safety and yours. Here is a web site that has a price for 100 bees. http://www.buckeyebee.com/price.html These are only my opinions, any body else have more opinions? Keith Malone Chugiak, Alaska USA starrier@yahoo.com http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney Check out current weather in my area and 5 day forecast; http://www.wx.com/myweather.cfm?ZIP=99654 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 09:23:29 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Edwards Subject: Re: Bee Keeping Industry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit rtaylor421 wrote: > > destroyed by the small hive beetle. Yes,a very expensive control were = > developed and recommended. When you listen to beekeepers who did all of = > the right things and wind up losing their hives, you start asking = > yourself the questions, why spend all of the money on treatments when = > you probably will lose the bees anyway. Where were these bee labs. Why = > do we have to depend on chemical companies who charge such a high price = > for treatments that may not work. Maybe the budget makers look at how = > much was being spent and how much was being produced. I can really understand your frustration - I grew up as the son of a cotton farmer in Arizona, who saw the pink bollworm come in and stay, regardless of treatments, and change the money-making management operations to subsistence farming. As for the bee labs, I also was disappointed at the inertia of established programs and scientists who kept working on 20-year projects while the world changed around them. My father was no fan of government employees, but always read everything he could get from extension and land-grant colleges. Our problem since the 1950s, as I see it, is that the constant stream of imported pests may include some with no good cure. I do not feel that this means we should give up on research, but the results will continue to be less than we learned to expect in earlier days. I am glad that I am not responsible for choosing between expensive research and lower production. - John Edwards, USDA-ARS (retired) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 08:26:52 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: Collecting bees for apitherapy. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All, > Tim Arheit asked: > > > Anyone have any tips and trick on collecting bees in a jar for use with > > apitherapy, > > especially during the winter months? > > My suggestion is: DON'T! I have too much lawyer in me to recommend that > anyone accept the risk that the recipient of his well-meaning gift of bees > might have an extremely adverse reaction to bee venom. Perhaps MS patients, > who have messed-up immune systems to begin with, are more likely than others > to react catastrophically. As long as this patient has a doctor to prescribe bee stings and has a doctor monitor their reaction to their stings for the first several sessions it should be ok. There are doctors who use this therapy and with MS patients it works with I think 60% of them, so I read. Like I wrote before, request and get a doctors note. You might even call the doctor that the patient uses to verify the note. Keith Malone Chugiak, Alaska USA starrier@yahoo.com http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney Check out current weather in my area and 5 day forecast; http://www.wx.com/myweather.cfm?ZIP=99654 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 03:55:58 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aleksandar Mihajlovski Subject: Documentation CD from beekeeping symposium held in Croatia (2001) In-Reply-To: <200202080501.g1851FA23753@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Bob Harrison wrote: > ABF is afraid if beekeepers can buy the tapes then they will not attend. Many beekeepers do not attend for many reasons and I believe the tapes should be made available so those missing the convention can hear the many lectures. < I can supply CD Rom (for Windows users on PC) from beekeeping symposium held last autumn in Croatia. CD has auto start program and no need to install anything on your PC. Has over 9 hours of audio (.mp3) and over 200 photographs and slides which allow the user to fill as he is present at symposium where lectures were about treatments (alternative) for varroa and selection. Lecturers were Ralph Buchler, Stefan Berg and Job v. Praagh from Germany, Antonio Nanetti from Italy (on English) and Janez Poklukar and Maja Drazic from Slovenia and Croatia. Also on CD are over 60 photographs from biggest beekeeping exhibition on the Balkans held in Belgrade (Yugoslavia) CD program (mask) is on Macedonian language but for few minutes everyone can catch up intuitively (back and forth). CD is made as documentation effort for Center for apicultural documentation which we are building here in Macedonia for present and future beekeepers. I estimated the value of one copy around 8 - 10 euros, but you can sand (on my address below) a book or any small beekeeping tool (or ABF convention tapes) with at least that value and in return I will sand you one copy of my journal with CD inside (without any fancy packing - of course). Main purpose for this my offer is to disseminate valuable beekeeping information's and in same time to enrich our beekeeping information center with various carriers of information's. Also I can exchange this and some other photo-collection CD-s as extra motivation for exchanging subscriptions between my journal and any other journal in the World. Sorry because I used Bob's words to divert his point to my point. ===== Aleksandar Mihajlovski, editor of Macedonian beekeeping journal: "Melitagora" Ul. Helsinki 41 a, 1000 Skopje, Macedonia Tel./Fax(modem): ++ 389 2 363-424 E-mail: melitagora@yahoo.com Join "Apimak", Macedonian discussion group at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/apimak __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings! http://greetings.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 13:17:33 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Bees of the Americas? In-Reply-To: <200202081309.g18D9CA02494@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi to all on BEE-L Adrian Wenner wrote: For instance, a Rev. Belknap had claimed that Columbus had brought over the first Apis mellifera colonies. Reply: I have a discourse written by Jeremy Belknap delivered on 23 Oct 1792 to commemorate the discovery of America by Christopher Columbus. In it he states: "There is one circumstance in the history of Columbus, which proves that bees were known in the islands of the West Indies, at the time of his discovery. When on his first return to Europe we was in danger of perishing at see, he wrote an account of his doscovery on parchment, which he enclosed in a cake of wax, and put into a tight cask, committing the whole to the sea, in hope of its being driver on shore or taken up. This was procured in the island of Hispaniola, which he had visited, and it was one of the first fruits of his discovery." Adrian: Question - Can you give more detail on your quote for me? Also, if the first trip by Columbus brought back wax and I am sure others did also, then has any of this wax been sampled and anaylsed to see what type of bees made it? Just a thought. Regards, Dee A. Lusby __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings! http://greetings.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 12:43:03 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Direct Introduction of Queens In-Reply-To: <200202081302.g18D2mA02239@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi to all on BEE-L Kyle wrote: If I understand right, the virgin queen emerges from the cell into a cage. (in a cell-finisher colony). You remove the cage with the new queen and approach the hive to be re-queened. (You mark the queen.) You smoke the hive heavily through the bottom entrance, open it up and let the virgin queen out of the cage. The heavy smoking fouls the bees sense of smell so thatthe old queen and the workers accept the new virgin. She mates and takesup her motherly duties. There is no down time as the new queen gets started. Dee, is that correct? Reply: I posted earlier on how I do this as when we raise queens I raise several hundred at a time. But, Kyle needs I think a reply here as to what is written by him. When I show and explain to smaller beekeepers in our association that only need a few queens (less then 50 and often less then 10) I realize that many cannot for their size operation work with a chicken incubator. Consequently, I show them how to simply split colonies and upon raising of queen cells, place wire, hand made cages over them and push into the comb. The wire cages are made out of wire 7-8 mesh hardware cloth and measure about 2 x 3 inches give or take. When the queens are emerged into the wire cages then workers in the colony can feed the queens and keep them until all are out. Then the queens can be taken to the field the same way. However, since they have been in contact with workers they are not quite as readily accepted as those raised in the incubator with no first contact. So to get around this, many of the members look up the old queens and remove and then wait for the crying sound of queenlessness. Then they smoke in the virgins the same way, by smoking in the front of the colony and then releasing the virgin up above when the smoke comes out the top of the colony. This isn't to say some just don't put in without killing or removing the old queen first (some do), but the odds are lesser with fist contact then without a first contact with workers. Smell I would reckon is important to bees, and once contact is make the virgins seem marked. Just figured I'd go over this for Kyle and others. But nothing really wrong with what Kyle said. I myself just like highter odds in acceptance and acting better like a regular supercedure. Regards, Dee A. Lusby __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings! http://greetings.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 12:44:48 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Closing of bee labs. Comments: To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit -----Original Message----- From: James Fischer [SMTP:jfischer@supercollider.com] Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2002 2:03 PM To: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu Subject: Re: Closing of bee labs. Hello Jiim and All, Bob Harrison said: > The closing of bee labs in part is coming from long > term projections for a huge reduction in commercial > beekeeping in the U.S. over the next ten years. To reply to my own statement. When an industry reduces in size by 50-75% ( like commercial beekeeping) the government sees help furnished reduced by the same amount. I had a senator tell me he could not tell the difference in taste from foreign honey and U.S. honey. PEOPLE TRYING TO REDUCE FOOD BILLS AT THE SUPERMARKET WILL ALWAYS BY THE LOWEST PRICE HONEY (foreign) < MUSTARD< KETCHUP AND SO ON. If the low price brand tastes bad then they will move up to the next lowest price. Also if you develop a taste for bad tasting honey then you never know what good honey tastes like I have stood and watched shoppers in grocery stores . Most ladies move through the store and already know which brand (are the lowest) they use and simply pluck and put in the cart. I have walked over and looked to see if the brand was the lowest price on the shelf and almost always is with honey , mustard and ketchup. Jiim wrote; Cutting research funding makes the "prediction" of the death of US commercial beekeeping a self-fulfilling prophesy. Research will help in many areas but in my opinion the problems facing the U.S .large beekeeper can not be solved by research alone. In Farming as Dr. Shilling pointed out 20% of farmers survived by increasing production 17 times. If the average commercial beekeeper even averaged 100 pounds per hive which is a high figure after talking to my friends then the beekeeper would need to increase production by 17 times. We all know that even doubling the honey production per hive to 200 pounds would be quite a feat when dealing with large numbers of hives. . As you and Dr. Shilling said *protectionism * will not work.in the long run. We have fought expensive battles with dumping with China and Argentina. The next battle over low honey prices will be with Mexico (in my opinion) and by then China will be able to dump again. Jiim wrote: .Many of the problems recited by Dr. Shilling is nothing more than a list of clear and compelling reasons why MORE research funding is justified under the current circumstances. Research is always money well spent in my opinion . Jiim wrote: Anyone who wants to declare beekeeping "dead" is ignoring a basic trait of man - given two rocks, man will bang them together just to see what happens. After a while, man has an edged tool. He them promptly starts to use that tool to make a better tool. Hobby beekeeping will never be dead but the large U.S. beekeeper has serious problems. The problems are known by all large beekeepers when they sit around a meeting or restaurant table. The solutions all have come up with will still not make the U.S. beekeeper able to compete in a world market place. Labor costs , fuel costs and the amount of expensive trucking involved are three big problems beside the low price for honey. In China the state supplies everything the beekeeper needs , including trucking and simply dumps the honey on the world market because the state owns everything. Beekeeping in China is a simple way of life without the pressures of beekeeping in the U.S In China you can ..produce 10 -11 pounds per hive and you still have got a job and in the beekeeping business. Sincerely, Bobb Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 07:58:52 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Direct Introduction of Queens In-Reply-To: <200202081302.g18D2mA02239@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi to all on BEE-L Kyle wrote about introduction of virgin queens. Yes we smoke them into our colonies by applying smoke in th entrance until it comes out the top of the colony and then release the virgins that act like a supercedure. It is quick, there is no backtracking for queen cups or cages and a few hundred a day can be smoked in. However, we do not work with cages either plastic or wooden. Nor are the virgins in contact with any other bees prior to smoking into our colonies for requeening. You do not want the virgins to pick up the scent of any colony or worker bee prior to smoking in. You want her to pick up the scent only of the hive she is going into so only that hive and its smell is associated with her. This gives for a much higher acceptance rate. We raise our virgin queens in starter/finishers that immediately upon capping over of the queen cells, they are placed into incubators into 3 dram bottles for thevirgin queens to emerge in. Upon emergence the wax cells are bent over with finger and granulated honey rubbed on lightly (don't want to drown queens as honey picks up water from the indubator). We use cheap styrofoam incubators like that used for chickens. Upon emergence the queens are culled for the type we are looking for and also for body conformity (no missing or deformed parts- something you cannot see in cells). It's a fast way to cull between yellow to black and various other notable strain characteristics. The faster the newly emerged queens are taken to the field the better and smoked in. The longest we have held in incubator is maybe 2-3 days, changing the bottles (12 hr shifts). In working with starter/finisher colonies it helps because the down time is only 4-5 days and they are back together rather than 10-12 or more the other way. This gives faster turn around time for re-use of them later after a rest and put back together. Acceptance is good and we feel we get above 80% or more. I like smoking in walking virgins. The workers of the new colonies seem to not be bothered by them and can be seen in many cases starting court almost immediately. Very rarely (1 out of 100 maybe) do I see a virgin picked on walking down into a colony. Regards, Dee A. Lusby __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings! http://greetings.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 09:38:56 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Honeybees for stings MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have had a few requests for winter bees for MS patients. I always give the bees away free, not looking to make a business of this. My method was taught me many years ago by a person who kept bees solely for arthritis. During the winter he took a broom straw (say, 8" long), stuck it in the front entrance and moved it around. When it was withdrawn, the several bees stuck to it were put into a jar. Repeat until enough are collected, or the bees get so irritated that it is best to move to another hive. I have to say I have never taken more than 50 or so bees from a hive, so certainly have not disturbed them all that much. As to the liability issues...I have never sought this activity; it has always found me. I take no payment, figuring this is a small gift to mankind. Those contacting me have always said they can't afford to pay the prices for mail order, and that they have taken stings before. I am certain this does not absolve me from being sued, but hey if we can't help another person why are we here? Lloyd Mailto:Lloyd@rossrounds.com. Lloyd Spear Owner, Ross Rounds, Inc. The finest in comb honey production. Visit our web site at http://www.rossrounds.com. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 08:30:38 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Documentation CD from beekeeping symposium held in Croatia (2001) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Aleksandar and All, Aleksandar wrote: I can supply CD Rom (for Windows users on PC) from beekeeping symposium = held last autumn in Croatia. CD has auto start program and no need to = install anything on your PC. Has over 9 hours of audio (.mp3) and over = 200 photographs and slides which allow the user to fill as he is present = at symposium where lectures were about treatments (alternative) for = varroa and selection. Lecturers were Ralph Buchler, Stefan Berg and Job = v. Praagh from Germany, Antonio Nanetti from Italy (on English) and = Janez Poklukar and Maja Drazic from Slovenia and Croatia. I thank Aleksandar for his kind and fair offer. I will be ordering the = CD. ( I understand the CD is not in English but I live in an area of = many colleges and believe I could get parts of the tape translated). To = those on the ABF leadership which are lurkers on BEE-L I would thank the = making and selling of ABF or American Honey producers conventions would = be a excellent source of extra income and help share needed varroa = information to beekeepers worldwide To be honest I hear very little at = these meetings I did not already know BUT the occasional different = approach is worth the time I spend attending lectures. I spend hours = picking the lectures I want to attend because at times you have to = choose between four or more going at the same time. Another reason for = selling tapes to the convention. I get to the lectures early and = always stay and ask questions If I am not sure I understand what the = speaker is saying unless several are running at once. Thanks again = Aleksandar to make the offer.=20 Sincerely, Bob Harrison Ps. I guess I will air a complaint about the way the ABF convention is = run. The convention runs four days so couldn't the ABF schedule = workshops so an attendee could listen to all talks if he so choose? = On the workshop day I had to move between four workshops going on to = glean a little bit of information from all. The workshops are done = usually by fellow beekeepers and usually not a lot of new information is = picked up by me (many ABF members never attend the workshops) but I = would attend all if I could. I would have liked to have attended my = friend George Imire's workshop in its entirety instead of only siting in = for awhile. I try to pick a slow time in a program to leave but leaving = while a speaker is speaking is rude but what I need to do to get the = jest of each workshop when four are run at the same time. Moving = between ABF workshops is common practice and permitted by the ABF. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 09:05:22 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Observation The re-queening and varroa treatment in the Fall system sounded like the best plan, so this is what I did, and I'd like to share an observation for those who have a honey source in Jan-Feb. Make sure you don't do ANYTHING to weaken the hive at that time, even if you have to re-check to make sure the new queen is laying. Also, consider combining weak hives. Of my hives that were weak during Sept-Oct, they are now building up nicely, but aren't putting much honey up. Of the stronger hives, they are filling supers up at a fast rate. As it's very cold at night, I think the big difference is that the populous hives are warm enough that the queen can immediately start laying lots of eggs. The difference in production in my eucalyptus/wildflower/avocado area is, as of yesterday, nothing to harvest in the weak hives, and already honey- bound supers in the strong hives. I even harvested some very strong hives a few weeks ago. Best regards, and thanks for the ideas Tim Vaughan ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 08:48:32 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Ancient Bear Dung I thought up a way to either prove or disprove Dee's interesting theory of a native Apis spp. I was thinking about how in her neck of the woods researches recently settled the case of the unusual dietary allegations surounding the Anasazi Peoples by examining their coprolites. There must be reams of papers about the make up of skunk, bear, etc.. feces past and present, and it's hard to imagine that the info ISN'T there, the trick would be getting it. Surely some of the list that occasionally rub shoulders with research types could get pointed in the right direction. Regards to the list Tim Vaughan ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 08:34:17 -0500 Reply-To: mpalmer@together.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: michael palmer Subject: Re: Collecting bees for apitherapy. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tim Arheit wrote: > Anyone have any tips and trick on collecting bees in a jar for use with > apitherapy, > especially during the winter months? I've had my first request to provide > bees for > treatment of MS and I'm a little unsure how to proceed Use the Charles Mraz method: Start with a quart canning jar. Pour about 1/4 inch of honey into the bottom of the jar. Place a wad of tissue over the honey. Next, insert a toilet paper tube into the jar, against the tissue. This tube has two "V's", about an inch high, cut out of the bottom rim. The bees use the tube for a clustering spot. The "V's" allow the bees access to the inside of the tube. With the cap off, place your jar setup against the upper entrance of the hive. Rap on the hive, or blow into the upper entrance. When the bees pour out of the hive to investigate, scoop them up. The bees will keep in this jar for at least a week. I've been using this setup for keeping my bees this winter. I don't like to go all winter without any stings, so I sting myself a few times each week. I don't believe it good for my body to receive all the venom I do in the warm months, and then get none during the winter, and then get back into it in April. Also, It seems to keep my fingers from stiffening up. After stinging the knuckles of my left hand, my fingers work much better at fretting the guitar. Mike ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 07:31:51 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Rodney Farrar Subject: Insurance MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit One of the locations where I have two hives the owner was asking if I carry any type of insurance if people get stung, etc., which I don't. I did check with State Farm who has my home owners policy but they don't have anything for bees. They referred me to another company but the price was $600.00 for a one million dollar policy. I didn't even sell that much honey last year. Comments from anyone. I live in subdivision so I can't put hives on my property. Rodney in VA ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 07:30:33 +1300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Watson, Owen" Subject: Re: Closing of bee labs. In-Reply-To: <200202061724.g16HOcA04894@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" >Yes the industry as I understand it is quite aware, but >also is aware of needing positive research and not negative >research. There is a big difference between the two. I also mmm. . . and what is this difference? -- --Owen Watson --at home in Wellington, New Zealand --Don't reply to erewhon@rsnz.govt.nz -- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 16:58:35 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Richard Yarnell Organization: Oregon VOS Subject: Re: Closing of bee labs. In-Reply-To: <200202092322.g19NMkA05487@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sat, 9 Feb 2002, Bob & Liz wrote: > -----Original Message----- > To reply to my own statement. When an industry reduces in size by > 50-75% ( like commercial beekeeping) the government sees help furnished > reduced by the same amount. > I had a senator tell me he could not tell the difference in taste from > foreign honey and U.S. honey. ... As far as blended honey is concerned, he's probably right. Put aside any unsafe chemical residue. For that reason, I don't think our arguments should rest on honey. We don't do any itinerant pollination. The gals work on what's close by. But I'm told that honey does provide a good bit of the margin for many pollination services. Perhaps the first think we should do is quit referring to the honey economy. It should be the "bee economy" or the "pollination economy." Don't you think the argments we can make would be stronger if we insist on Congress accepting the fact that our bees are pivotal in the abundance our farmers manage to produce? Then I'd tell your Senator that increasing the efficiency of the bees is beyond us. That we've cut most of the costs we'll be able to cut, but that new costs are thrust on us by the very need to ship hives hither and yon and the need to deal with parasites and disease which, in the long run, can't and shouldn't be dealt with chemically - we agree: organophospates have no business anywhere near an edible product over which we have no control inside the hive. > Cutting research funding makes the "prediction" of the death of US > commercial beekeeping a self-fulfilling prophesy. > Research will help in many areas but in my opinion the problems facing > the U.S. large beekeeper can not be solved by research alone. In > Farming as Dr. Shilling pointed out 20% of farmers survived by > increasing production 17 times. If the average commercial beekeeper > even averaged 100 pounds per hive which is a high figure after talking > to my friends then the beekeeper would need to increase production by 17 > times. We all know that even doubling the honey production per hive to > 200 pounds would be quite a feat when dealing with large numbers of > hives. . But do tell him, your Senator, that some of that 17 fold increase in other agriculture components is due to contract pollination services. We know yields are increased when our bees are trucked in. We know that huge areas of monocropping eliminate the natural range of forage which might support ferral colonies if they were able to survive the same parasites we battle. And point out, if China, Argentina, and any other country which subsidizes its honey industry is allowed to put the American industry in the tank, it's not likely they will step up to ship bees across the water to provide, what was it, 400,000 hives just for the almond bloom? If the seed and fruit producing farmers have to pay all the costs of putting hives in their fields, that is if there is no market for domestic honey at all, those farmers would see their customers looking overseas too. I recently visited the site of our former ranch in San Diego County. Now that that 1000 acres has been subdivided into 2 acre lots with houses, there is no way in the world it's ever going back into production. The politicians harp on our becoming energy independent: We'd best look to maintaining a farm economy that can feed us against the day when overseas sources of food are lost to us through disease, conflict, or some other calamity. --------------- Richard Yarnell, SHAMBLES WORKSHOPS | No gimmick we try, no "scientific" Beavercreek, OR. Makers of fine | fix we attempt, will save our planet Wooden Canoes, The Stack(R) urban | until we reduce the population. Let's composter, Raw Honey | leave our kids a decent place to live. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 19:42:35 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Milt Lathan Subject: Gas Branding Iron - Where? Howdy, Can anyone tell me where I can find the 1-piece branders I've seen only in beekeeping videos? Thanks. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 22:19:19 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Rick and Kathy Subject: Re: Insurance MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rodney Farrar wrote: > One of the locations where I have two hives the owner was asking if I carry > any type of insurance if people get stung, etc., which I don't. Rodney, If you have Farm Bureau in VA (and I believe you do), members can get homeowners insurance through Farm Family Insurance. I think they're a great insurance co. for a hobbiest beekeeper, since they not only insure against accidental stings from your bees, also provide some product liability for small volumes (i forget the limits) of hive products. We still write with Farm Family, but have had to write an additional policy/rider since we've exceeded the product limits. Good Luck, Kathy ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 21:00:29 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Rick Green Subject: Re: Closing of bee labs. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have sold honey to supermarkets at a premium over imported brands, and it sold well. The problem is with the supermarket also. The cheaper foreign brands sold better with a greater profit (presumably) and they had more shelf space than I. I was eventually dropped not because the consumers didn't buy but because the supermarket could maximize their profits by dumping me. It sold because people wanted a convient source of local honey and would pay more for it. This is my bone about the NHB. They promote honey (any countries honey) rather than local honey. Promoting local honey helps every little guy in the US but not the commercial US producers who can not unload their load locally. For me to care about the NHB I must receive a benefit such as having the NHB and labs singing and searching for the virtues of local honey. The total volume of US honey sales may decline but the industry (not to be equated with a few small guys) can still thrive. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 19:56:48 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Insurance MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable -----Original Message----- From: Rodney Farrar [SMTP:Rodsbug@AOL.COM] Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2002 6:32 AM To: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu Subject: Insurance Hello Rodney and All, If you are a member of the American Beekeeping Federation you can get = insurance on their group plan. I have used the plan for years but most = hobby beekeepers do not as they feel the cost is high for the returns = from their hobby. With the ABF plan also comes product liability. You = can not buy only liability. The price for the lowest coverage is less = than you quoted. Actually all though most hobby beekeepers and even some sideliners do = not carry insurance if a problem ever come up I am sure you would have = wished you had insurance. I have never had a claim but feel better = knowing I won't lose everything in a lawsuit. I might could do without = insurance as I am incorporated also for protection but then all assets = of the corp would be at risk.=20 My ABF insurance also qualifies for coverage at street festivals. I = have to send an ABF insurance copy with my booth rent or buy liability = insurance from the festival. The insurance at one festival I do if = bought from the festival is around $40. . All insurance has little to do = with beekeeping but for peace of mind from a law suit. In a law suit = negligence would have to be proven in an expensive lawsuit. Always = watch the placement of hives as putting hives across the fence from a = playground might be considered negligence. Sincerely, Bob Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 01:42:37 -0500 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Fischer Subject: Elected Folks Who Can Save the Bee Labs - A List MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To those of you who live in the USA: As luck would have it, every state in the nation is represented by someone who can restore funding to the threatened Bee Labs. This means that everyone reading who lives in the USA is honor-bound to write at least one letter. Some have the opportunity to write more. Here is a primer on how a voter can successfuly interact one-on-one with elected officials at the national level. (All this was explained to me by the CEO of one of the best lobbyist firms in the nation, who by chance bought a house from me a while ago.) Here is what he said: Your note need not be detailed, it need not be long. A postcard is fine. It need not even be TYPED. Handwritten notes are wonderful, since they are clearly not some sort of computerized fakery designed to look like "grassroots support". (Yes, this happens. It backfires, more often than not.) Don't send e-mail. Some elected officials treat e-mail well, some simply have software that sends a reply to each message, and never read the message. Some ignore e-mail. Don't risk sending e-mail. Don't be a cheapskate, buy a 35-cent stamp. (Mailing addresses can be found at www.house.gov and www.senate.gov.) If you call a congressperson's district office, you may find that your congressperson comes home on weekends. These folks are very approachable, and one CAN make an appointment to have coffee on a weekend. Bring along a pollination customer, bring along other beekeepers. Be nice, be respectful. Don't be confrontational. Keep it short and sweet. Pick up the tab for the coffee. :) Each committee is listed below, and at the end, a list of congresspersons and senators sorted by state allows you to quickly find your representatives. What to say? Keep it short. Politicians have short attention spans simply because their brains would otherwise explode. Make it easy for them to read and understand. The total amount of money that the USDA neglected to include in their budget is a mere $4.6 million out of a $4.7 Billion budget, so this is not a big request that needs lots of documentation. In short, if you lose the labs, you lose any chance of ever seeing advances that might overcome the pest problems, and there will not be enough bees to pollinate crops. (Yes, this is a massive oversimplification, but he stressed to NOT risk confusing them with details.) Who is the letter from? You, an individual constituent. If you wish to also write a letter as a representative of a local or state bee group, that's a second letter. The letters from actual voters, (best of all who live or work in the districts of congresspeople) are the "important" letters. What if you do not live in the district of a congressman that is on one of the key committees? Do you have an apiary in his district? Do you ever sell honey or provide pollination colonies to his district? If not, then simply say that your bees often visit his district, and maybe you will get a smile and get remembered. You only need one person to mention this "minor matter" and suggest a "mark up" to the budget to restore the funding. It could be any one of them. These folks look for causes to champion, and the issue of "food security" is a major budget item itself, so bees for crop pollination is an easy issue, and a good way that someone can make himself look "insightful" to his fellow elected officials. Mail it so that it can be read prior to Feb 28th, when the budget is reviewed by the House, so get it in the mail ASAP. What about Senators? Sure, write your Senator too, but if you don't fix this in the House, fixing it in the Senate will be a long shot at best. Your best bet is focusing on the members of the House. Here is the list, first by appropriate committee, and then by state: House Agriculture Subcommittee on Specialty Crops and Foreign Agriculture Programs (Peanuts; sugar; tobacco; HONEY and BEES...) Terry Everett AL Chairman Gary A. Condit CA Ranking Minority Member Mike Thompson CA Saxby Chambliss GA Sanford D. Bishop, Jr. GA Bob Schaffer CO Mike McIntyre NC William L. Jenkins TN Bob Etheridge NC Robin Hayes NC Michael K. Simpson ID Ken Lucas KY Ernie Fletcher KY Baron P. Hill IN Bennie G. Thompson MS Dennis R. Rehberg MT Adam H. Putnam FL House Appropriations Subcommittee on AGRICULTURE (Rural Development, Food and Drug Administration, and Related Agencies) Henry Bonilla, Texas Chairman Marcy Kaptur, Ohio James T. Walsh, New York Rosa DeLauro, Connecticut Jack Kingston, Georgia Maurice D. Hinchey, New York George Nethercutt, Jr., Washington Sam Farr, California Tom Latham, Iowa Allen Boyd, Florida Jo Ann Emerson, Missouri Virgil H. Goode, Jr., Virginia Ray LaHood, Illinois Full House Appropriations Committee C.W. Bill Young, Florida, Chairman Ralph Regula, Ohio David R. Obey, Wisconsin Jerry Lewis, California John P. Murtha, Pennsylvania Harold Rogers, Kentucky Norman D. Dicks, Washington Joe Skeen, New Mexico Martin Olav Sabo, Minnesota Frank R. Wolf, Virginia Steny H. Hoyer, Maryland Tom DeLay, Texas Alan B. Mollohan, West Virginia Jim Kolbe, Arizona Marcy Kaptur, Ohio Sonny Callahan, Alabama Nancy Pelosi, California James Walsh, New York Peter J. Visclosky, Indiana Charles H. Taylor, North Carolina Nita M. Lowey, New York David L. Hobson, Ohio Jose E. Serrano, New York Ernest J. Istook, Jr., Oklahoma Rosa L. DeLauro, Connecticut Henry Bonilla, Texas James P. Moran, Virginia Joe Knollenberg, Michigan John W. Olver, Massachusetts Dan Miller, Florida Ed Pastor, Arizona Jack Kingston, Georgia Carrie P. Meek, Florida Rodney P. Frelinghuysen, New Jersey David E. Price, North Carolina Roger F. Wicker, Mississippi Chet Edwards, Texas George R. Nethercutt, Jr., Washington Robert E. "Bud" Cramer, Jr., Alabama Randy "Duke" Cunningham, California Patrick J. Kennedy, Rhode Island Todd Tiahrt, Kansas James E. Clyburn, South Carolina Zach Wamp, Tennessee Maurice D. Hinchey, New York Tom Latham, Iowa Lucille Roybal-Allard, California Anne Northup, Kentucky Sam Farr, California Robert Aderholt, Alabama Jesse L. Jackson, Jr., Illinois Jo Ann Emerson, Missouri Carolyn C. Kilpatrick, Michigan John E. Sununu, New Hampshire Allen Boyd, Florida Kay Granger, Texas Chaka Fattah, Pennsylvania John E. Peterson, Pennsylvania Steven R. Rothman, New Jersey Virgil Goode, Virginia John Doolittle, California Ray LaHood, Illinois John Sweeney, New York David Vitter, Louisiana Don Sherwood, Pennsylvania Senate Agriculture Committee Tom Harkin, IA Chairman Richard G. Lugar, IN Ranking Republican Member Patrick J. Leahy, VT Jesse Helms, NC Kent Conrad, ND Thad Cochran, MS Thomas A. Daschle, SD Mitch McConnell, KY Max Baucus, MT Pat Roberts, KS Blanche Lincoln, AR Peter Fitzgerald, IL Zell Miller, GA Craig Thomas, WY Debbie Stabenow, MI Wayne Allard, CO E. Benjamin Nelson, NE Tim Hutchinson, AR Mark Dayton, MN Mike Crapo, ID Paul Wellstone, MN Senate Committee on Appropriations Byrd (WV) Stevens (AK) Inouye (HI) Cochran (MS) Hollings (SC) Specter (PA) Leahy (VT) Domenici (NM) Harkin (IA) Bond (MO) Mikulski (MD) McConnell (KY) Reid (NV) Burns (MT) Kohl (WI) Shelby (AL) Murray (WA) Gregg (NH) Dorgan (ND) Bennett (UT) Feinstein (CA) Campbell (CO) Durbin (IL) Craig (ID) Johnson (SD) Hutchison (TX) Landrieu (LA) DeWine (OH) Reed (RI) Committee Congressmen By State Terry Everett AL Sonny Callahan AL Robert E. "Bud" Cramer Jr. AL Robert Aderholt AL Jim Kolbe AZ Ed Pastor AZ Gary A. Condit CA Mike Thompson CA Sam Farr CA Jerry Lewis CA Nancy Pelosi CA Randy "Duke" Cunningham CA Lucille Roybal-Allard CA Sam Farr CA John Doolittle CA Bob Schaffer CO Rosa L. DeLauro CO Adam H. Putnam FL Allen Boyd FL C.W. Bill Young FL Dan Miller FL Carrie P. Meek FL Saxby Chambliss GA Sanford D. Bishop, Jr. GA Jack Kingston GA Tom Latham IA Michael K. Simpson ID Ray LaHood IL Jesse L. Jackson Jr IL Baron P. Hill IN Peter J. Visclosky IN Todd Tiahrt KS Harold Rogers KY Anne Northup KY Ken Lucas KY Ernie Fletcher KY David Vitter LA John W. Olver MA Steny H. Hoyer MD Joe Knollenberg MI Carolyn C. Kilpatrick MI Martin Olav Sabo MN Jo Ann Emerson MO Roger F. Wicker MS Bennie G. Thompson MS Dennis R. Rehberg MT Mike McIntyre NC Bob Etheridge NC Robin Hayes NC Charles H. Taylor NC David E. Price NC John E. Sununu NH Rodney P. Frelinghuysen NJ Steven R. Rothman NJ Joe Skeen NM James T. Walsh NY Maurice D. Hinchey NY James Walsh NY Nita M. Lowey NY Jose E. Serrano NY Maurice D. Hinchey NY John Sweeney NY Marcy Kaptur OH Ralph Regula OH David L. Hobson OH Ernest J. Istook, Jr. OK John P. Murtha PA Chaka Fattah PA John E. Peterson PA Don Sherwood PA Patrick J. Kennedy RI James E. Clyburn SC Zach Wamp TN William L. Jenkins TN Henry Bonilla TX Tom DeLay TX Henry Bonilla TX Chet Edwards TX Kay Granger TX Virgil H. Goode, Jr. VA Frank R. Wolf VA James P. Moran VA George Nethercutt, Jr. WA Norman D. Dicks WA George R. Nethercutt Jr. WA David R. Obey WI Alan B. Mollohan WV Committee Senators By State Stevens AK Shelby AL Blanche Lincoln AR Tim Hutchinson AR Feinstein CA Wayne Allard CO Campbell CO Zell Miller GA Inouye HI Tom Harkin IA Mike Crapo ID Craig ID Peter Fitzgerald IL Durbin IL Richard G. Lugar IN Pat Roberts KS Mitch McConnell KY Landrieu LA Mikulski MD Debbie Stabenow MI Mark Dayton MN Paul Wellstone MN Bond MO Thad Cochran MS Max Baucus MT Burns MT Jesse Helms NC Kent Conrad ND Dorgan ND E. Benjamin Nelson NE Gregg NH Domenici NM Reid NV DeWine OH Specter PA Reed RI Hollings SC Daschle SD Johnson SD Hutchison TX Bennett UT Leahy VT Murray WA Kohl WI Byrd WV Craig Thomas WY ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 09:34:33 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Closing of bee labs. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable -----Original Message----- From: Rick Green [SMTP:Gothoney@AOL.COM] Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2002 8:00 PM To: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu Subject: Re: Closing of bee labs. Hello Rick and All, Rick wrote: I was eventually dropped not because the consumers didn't buy but = because the supermarket could maximize their profits by dumping me. It = sold because people wanted a convient source of local honey and would = pay more for it. =20 Your situation seems different than the chains in our area. The chains = have a standard mark up based on the price they pay wholesale. My = daughter is a buyer for a large distributer and has explained the = process to me many times and I will try to explain to you. The = supermarket expects to make a certain amount of money from every foot of = shelf space. When sales drop below a certain store set level then your = space is cancelled and a product which will make the profitability = standards of the store take its place. Let me assure you many times = honey is replaced with another product. I have seen honey shelf space = shrink in some chain stores to about five feet of shelf space and only = sizes which can be profitable to the store. Small hometown and private = grocery stores are easier to deal with and usually do not monitor honey = sales.=20 Now for the big kicker which will cause quite a commotion. Just because = the label says the producer is in the area DOES NOT mean the honey is = local. Many sideliners buy honey from other states ECT. I would = also quess that 50% of sideliners pasteurize and ppressure filter their = honey to make a crystal clear product aaand give shelf space if you are = running a route of say a 100 stores. Honey with quite a bit of pollen = in it crystalizes faster than honey with the pollen filtered out like = many big packers do. The value of honey as seen by health food store = owners and the way large packers see honey are to different approches. = Why does not the USDA make honey producers clearly print on the label = the origin of the honey ( not a general statement which includes the = U.S. as a country AND also the way the honey is processed such as . Pasteurized Pressure filtered Only strained Raw honey Most consumers in surveys report selecting honey on the store shelf = because of cost and taste based on past buying. One reason why large = packers blend honey is so their product always taste the same or very = similar. One off flavor jar and the consumer selects another brand on = the next trip to the store.. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Ps. Large honey packers have got the money to fight the above and will = fight any movement to make their store shelf honey seem inferior to = local raw honey. The NHB will NEVER have the clout of the large packers. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 16:37:21 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Gas Branding Iron MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Milt & all I made my own... Details on http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman/branding.html Best Regards & 73s... Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website... http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 09:56:46 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Heads-Up! Tracheal Mites are Back MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit At several meetings I have attended recently, the problem of tracheal mites has been come up. Apparently, especially with the current varroa problems, tracheal is often being ignored, but is once again a very big problem that is causing a lot of winter loss. Because tracheal is not a simple thing to see -- detection requires lab work -- tracheal is going undetected and tracheal losses are being blamed on other factors. Moreover, the effects of tracheal are additive to those of varroa, and levels that were previously thought harmless can now cause colony death. 10% used to be considered the threshold for worry. Now 5% can be a cause for alarm. There is a lot of variability in a yard and if a yard sample comes in at 10%, that can mean that some hives are at zero, and others at 50% or more. 10% in an individual hive puts it at risk, especially if there are other pressures to consider like varroa, and the effects of varroa treatments on the bees.. I would advise all readers to get samples to a lab for tracheal tests ASAP if they have not been treating, and to begin to consider immediate treatment options. Although TM losses often occur in winter, they can continue into spring and one or two simple early treatments can save hives that otherwise may suddenly die unexpectedly. For details on treatment options, search the BEE-L archives at http://www.internode.net/honeybee/BEE-L/ for keys such as menthol and formic and tracheal. The blue shop towel is apparently one of the best, as is the grease and menthol cardboard insert method. For formic acid, three 30 ml Dri-loc pad 65% treatments, applied a week or so apart, are required (unless a long term pad is used). If varroa is also a target, the treatment needs to go to six pads about seven days apart. For menthol, two treatments of 20 ml spaced about ten days apart are necessary for good tracheal control (I know of no effect on varroa from menthol). The grease formulations work best because they ensure evaporation. Grease should be 20% to 50% of the mix. Ambient temperatures should be reaching 20 degrees C (70 degrees F) daily for good evaporation and assured success. Under cooler conditions, wrapped hives may be able to generate enough internal heat for successful treatment. Warning: menthol applied in mesh bags doesn't work well, and wastes expensive menthol. Don't use that method unless you know it works for you. In cool weather, either formic or menthol treatment should be on the top bars. In hot regions (over 25 degrees C), bottom treatments may be preferable. Ask around locally. After treatment, dead mites will be seen in trachea for the life of the individual bees, so re-testing will not be able to easily prove success. After the old bees have died (hopefully of natural causes), testing will show low levels -- if the treatment was successful. allen http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/Diary/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 09:31:51 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Norman Thompson Organization: Garden of Eatin' Subject: Daffodil Pollen? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, My first post though I have been reading many, many months first. I have searched Bee-L archives and didn't find anything on the subject. I have a LOT of daffodils and for the first year now Mr. Bear hasn't wiped out my hives because finally I put all of my hives on the roof of my house. I have tried for years but he has gotten them every time. So my question is: Will my honeybees collect the pollen from daffodils and is it harmful to them or their brood? Is it harmful to me as I know narcissus/daffodils are not good to eat -- all parts are poisonous. Also does the daffodil produce a useable amount of nectar ( can the honeybee reach it ) and will the honey be useable (edible)?? It is warm enough here in Far Northern California for them to fly already quite often. They are collecting some other types of pollen already this year and will be able to fly many of the days that the daffodils are open. Been wonderful discussions on here lately -- I read them all with great interest. Norman Thompson Garden of Eatin' 6652 Greenwood Heights Drive Kneeland, California 95549 USA gdeatin@redwoods.quik.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 12:44:41 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Trachael mites MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen Dick just reminded the list of the devastating effect of Tracheal Mites, and outlined the preferred treatments. As we have all come to expect from Allen, his advice is sound and well reasoned. However, I would like to add another approach, more or less completely contrary to Allen's. My suggestion is to not treat for Tracheal Mites and to instead "take your losses", and make your small contribution to developing wide-spread resistance. In general, I think we all agree that it would be best if we did not have to treat bees for any disease. Despite that general feeling, we either have to treat for Varroa or lose our colonies (assuming we have more than 50 or so colonies so that it is impractical to rely on freezing drone brood several times a year). American Foulbrood is next on everyone's list...but many or most hobbyists do not have to treat and should try to keep it that way. The single best preventative is to NEVER accept brood combs or honey frames from someone unless you feel positive they would tell you if they had any history of AFB. Breeders have done a good job at selecting for stock that is resistant to Tracheal Mites. If you buy queens you can get that stock by buying New World Carnolians (NWC's), or from any of the cooperators in the Ontario Queen Project. NWC mother stock comes solely from Sue Cobey at Ohio State, and has been tested for many years as having Varroa infestations of less than 2%. One California breeder who buys her stock (at $500 each, and up) and uses that to produce queens that are open-mated and sold to you and I, has had progeny from his open-mated queens tested and found that "only" 30% were infested with Varroa. Given the open mating, that is remarkably low. I understand that the infestation rates for members in the Ontario project are much lower...less than 10%, in general. However, I am personally leery of this claim because the colonies are treated with formic acid. (The NWC colonies receive no treatment for Tracheal Mites.) And there are many others producing resistant queens...Kirk Webster, those producing the lines of Russian queens, etc. My own 100+ colonies have not been treated for Tracheal Mites in many years. Every year I know I lose some to the effects of Tracheal infestation, but I consider that a price paid along the way to wide-spread resistance. I mourn the losses, but at fewer than 20% of my hives, they are certainly at an acceptable level and are quickly replaced by splits. So, make your choice as you will but please at least consider not treating at all. Lloyd Mailto:Lloyd@rossrounds.com. Lloyd Spear Owner, Ross Rounds, Inc. The finest in comb honey production. Visit our web site at http://www.rossrounds.com. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 17:17:01 -0500 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Fischer Subject: PATIENT-Collected bees for apitherapy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Give and man a fish, or teach a man to fish? You know which is the correct answer. The easy way to get a MS patient the bees he/she needs on a long-term basis to teach them to keep bees themselves in an observation hive. This avoids all the liability issues, avoids "practicing medicine without a license", avoids all the ethical/legal problems of charging money for something that should be free, and makes less work for the you, the beekeeper. Certainly a few jars of bees up front are not a big problem, and one should verify that bee stings are having a positive impact before getting ahead of oneself, but one does not want to turn this into a long-term obligation for either party. Here's what I have done: a) Make a gift of an observation hive, or convince the patient to buy one. Stock it with a queen that you would otherwise kill and a frame of bees. A slow-laying older queen is an ADVANTAGE in an observation hive. :) b) Rig up a stand-alone feeder assembly that can be placed "down the entrance tube", between the hive and the exit. c) Between the hive and the feeder assembly, rig up a "trap" to catch bees, one or two at a time. Using off the shelf plumbing components (appropriate for those who use clear flexible hose as an exit tube), you need a "tee" and appropriate sized threaded adapters for the tube. I use 1 1/4 inch Inner Diameter clear tubing, since this matches the most common PVC plumbing components. d) Hold the tee so that it looks like a letter "T". You want one opening to point straight down. e) Cut slots into the top of the two horizontal flanges with a handsaw or a dremel tool. You want a straight and thin cut, ideal would be 1/16th inch thick and no winder than the pipe's diameter. (Cut no further than 1/2 way through the pipe.) f) Fabricate a "pipe to jar lid adapter" by cutting a hole into the jar lid, and sliding in and gluing a sink flange. Glue this assembly to the downward tee flange with PVC glue. When done, cut a slot in the front side of the flange, similar to (e). g) Fabricate a set of three "slide-in doors" from flashing, plastic, cardboard, whatever is lying around. They should block the opening in the tee completely. Operation is simple. The downward door is normally closed, and the "in" and "out" doors are normally open. (Yes, the bees may take a few days to learn to quickly navigate through this unusual obstruction...) Wait for a bee or two to enter the trap, and slide the in and out doors into their "closed" positions. Screw a jar with a bit of honey onto the downward projecting tee flange, and open the downward door. Wait a bit, and the bees enter the jar. Unscrew the jar, quickly screw on another jar top, and voila - bees in a jar. If more than one day's bees are needed, one can simply bait the jar, close the outermost door, open the downward door, and leave the jar in place until one has a good number of bees. One can even rig up a gerbil feeder nozzle to a jar lid as a feeder for bees in a jar that need to be kept alive for longer periods, like trips. When feed runs out, refill the feeder. Be sure the patient knows the number of sugar packets and amount of water required to mix up a new batch of thin syrup. One can do this with nothing more than water from the hot water tap, and sugar packets pocketed at a restaurant. As far as keeping the colony alive, there are lots of good books on the subject, and a typical MS patient who uses bee stings is very motivated to learn. What about winter? In winter, an indoor observation hive can be kept warm enough to keep traffic going between the feeder and the hive. Yes, feeding is a constant issue in winter, but one must also feed one's fish. Here's a diagram, in genuine ascii art, since Bee-L barfs on attachments (if it looks screwy, cut and paste it into a work processor using a courier font): Threaded Tee Threaded Adapter Adapter Cut Cut Slot Slot +------+ +--v----------------------v--+ +-------+ ||| | | v v | | ||| ||| | | v v | | ||| ||| | | v v | | ||| ||| | | v v | | ||| ||| | | | | ||| ||| | | | | ||| ||| | | | | ||| ||| | | | | ||| +------+ +----+ +----+ +-------+ | | | <<<<<<<<>>>>>>>> | Cut Slot | | +------------------+ Downward Tee Flange +---------------------------+ | | Jar Lid + + +----------------+ | | Sink Flange ====================== ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 15:41:43 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Adrian Wenner Subject: California winter Comments: cc: paulc@silcom.com, doncole@MAC.COM Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Tim Vaughan recently gave some information about beekeeping in his part of California. I forgot what part of California he wrote about, but he said they had had cold weather. A week and a half ago we also had cold weather here for several days, nearly getting down to freezing and only up to about 60 degrees in our yard here in Santa Barbara. The last few days, though, have had a reversal, with temperatures down only to the upper 40s and up to the mid or upper 70s (F). Paul Cronshaw and I worked 14 of his colonies today. All but one were doing fine, with nectar (still some eucalyptus) and dark yellow pollen coming in (likely from black acacia). The one weak colony had an apparently new queen, but no brood and too few bees to bother with; so we united it with another colony. The weather was splendid, and the bees paid essentially no attention to our manipulations. We certainly didn't need a veil! As some of you may remember, this is the bee yard where we collected 10 queens last June and shipped them to Jim Tew, Gard Otis, and Zachary Huang for an experiment they are conducting. They obtained 10 queens from each of three geographic locations, where beekeepers had not treated colonies with anything to control varroa. They also wanted queens from colonies that had not become Africanized. In our case, after removal of queens last June, we allowed the colonies to undergo supercedure on their own, with natural mating with whatever drones existed in the area (none from any managed colonies that we know about). All the colonies in that apiary have now gone 4 years without treatment of any kind (not for varroa, tracheal mites, nosema, AFB, or anything else). Furthermore, those bees in some cases survived for several years in the wild (not escaped swarms from beekeeper hives) before being hived for this yard. As we worked through the hives, we saw not a single wrinkled wing bee. Nor did we see any varroa mites on the workers. A set of split open drone brood in one colony exhibited no varroa mites. However, the last colony we opened had a bit of drone brood. By opening about 25 cells, we saw two drone pupae with two varroa mites on each and another drone with a single mite (3 drones out of 25). Adrian Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home phone) 967 Garcia Road (805) 893-8062 (UCSB FAX) Santa Barbara, CA 93106 [http://www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/index.htm] ***************************************************** * * "We not only believe what we see: * to some extent we see what we believe." * * Richard Gregory (1970) * ***************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 17:11:15 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Greetings The bee labs have not done research on honey in years, so far as I know. I don't think they see that as their mission. The general public has never had the great appreciation of honey that beekeepers do and most people are not even aware that there are many flavors of honey. Decades of promotion hasn't really changed this. Many people see the only future for beekeeping in the US as tied to pollination. Dr, Calderone and Dr. Morse, of the Dyce Lab, promoted this idea in their report in 2000. I know some beekeepers do not want to do pollination. >Based on a study of the figures published by the National >Agricultural Statistics Service of the USDA, interviews with >beekeepers, extensionists and researchers, we estimate that there >were 2,500,000 colonies rented for pollination purposes in 1998. >This is up from 2,035,000 in 1989, representing an 18.6 percent >increase. see http://bee.airoot.com/beeculture/pollination2000/pg1.html Maybe we could talk about ways that small beekeepers could get in to pollination; ways to make it more feasible for them. For example, I find moving bees in a pickup truck to be a breeze now that I have a lift gate. This device is almost foolproof, unlike various boom loaders. I also move the hives screened, which I didn't use to do. I used to load them up open, by myself, by hand, and always dreaded it (no wonder). -- Peter Borst ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 16:23:13 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Adrian Wenner Subject: Bees of the Americas? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Dee Lusby asked about (the Rev. Jeremy Belknap 1792 assertion that): >"There is one circumstance in the history of Columbus, >which proves that bees were known in the islands of the >West Indies, at the time of his discovery. When on his >first return to Europe he was in danger of perishing at >sea, he wrote an account of his discovery on parchment, >which he enclosed in a cake of wax, and put into a tight >cask, committing the whole to the sea, in hope of its being >driven on shore or taken up. This was procured in the >island of Hispaniola, which he had visited, and it was one >of the first fruits of his discovery." First of all, note that the above quotation does not use the term "beeswax" but only "wax." >Adrian: Question - Can you give more detail on your quote for me? Yes, here is the full reference: Benjamin Smith Barton. An Inquiry into the Question, whether Apis mellifera, or True Honey-Bee, is a Native of America. Transactions of the American Philosophical Society, Vol. III (Philadelphia, 1793), pp. 241-246. [Dr. Barton was Professor of Natural History and Botany at the University of Pennsylvania.] I have a photocopy of that article somewhere in my files but cannot locate it on short notice. However, the university library in Tucson should be able to help in locating it in less time than I could. >Also, if the first trip by Columbus brought back wax and I >am sure others did also, then has any of this wax been >sampled and analyzed to see what type of bees made it? If the wax Columbus had used, in fact, had been some type of beeswax, it could well have been from Trigona and/or Melipona colonies that natives in the Yucatan had been keeping for centuries before the arrival of Columbus (see Eva Crane's books on that matter). Adrian Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home phone) 967 Garcia Road (805) 893-8062 (UCSB FAX) Santa Barbara, CA 93106 [http://www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/index.htm] ***************************************************** * * "We not only believe what we see: * to some extent we see what we believe." * * Richard Gregory (1970) * ***************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 17:06:19 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Glen van Niekerk Subject: SunStream beekeeping equipment plans Hi to all: Refering to Item #34244 Plans for beekeeping equipment There were 20 different plans for making beekeeping equipment available from a company called Sunstream. Is there anybody on the list who can help me out - I would like to obtain these plans , if possible. Thanx in Advance Glen Beekeeping@webmail.co.za ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 13:01:49 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Heads-Up! Tracheal Mites are Back In-Reply-To: <200202101704.g1AH4vA25412@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi to all on BEE-L Allen Dick wrote that besides trachael mites are back again: *I would advise all readers to get samples to a lab for tracheal tests ASAP if they have not been treating, and to begin to consider immediate treatment options. Although TM losses often occur in winter, they can continue into spring and one or two simple early treatments can save hives that otherwise may suddenly die unexpectedly.* Reply: This is exactly the reason we went to smaller 4.9mm foundation from the 5.0-5.1mm size we had just finished regressing our bees to. They were living (with other commercial around us not regressing) but not making us a living anymore. When we first came out of trachael mites they did fine, but then varroa showed up. The double wammy with both mites and La Nina was a bad combination of stress on our bees. Chemicals only serve to bring mites up to their full reproductive potential and make the pesticide treadmill worse by always meaning more chemicals be used to supress a worsening scenario. We decided not to supress, we decided to eliminate and start over. This we did without various doping of chemicals, drugs, essential oils, and acids. But it is an extremely hard road to retool not for the faint of mind. You must put your bees through withdrawal like addicts and watch and cry. It is sad having to do this. But then they get better,like former addicts have gotten better. What a sad state. Not dope and lose perhaps 90% to all and withdrawal that loses 90% also, that maybe should have died a long time ago, if nature would have had her way, and man did not cheat. Life is hard. Clean sustainable beekeeping is not easy. An omen by Allen on things to come? REgards, Dee __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings! http://greetings.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 15:34:23 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Coleene Davidson Subject: I HAD A SURPRISE THIS WEEKEND MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable HI ALL, WE HAVE HAS AN UNUSUALLY MILD WINTER THUS FAR, AND TO INSURE MY BEES HAD = SUFFICEINT STORES I PUT FEED ON ALL OF MY HIVES SATURDAY. 7 OF 8 ARE = DOING WELL. THE 8TH HAD LOTS OF DEAD BEES ON THE BOTTOM BOARDS BUT THE = HIVE IS STILL ALIVE. THE SURPRISE I GOT WAS FROM A HIVE STARTED FROM = WHAT I THINK WAS AN AFTER SWARM FROM ONE OF MY HIVES. THERE WERE ONLY A = HANDFULL OF BEES AND A SMALL QUEEN. THEY TOOK UP RESIDENCE IN SOME OLD = EQUIPMENT IN A SHED IN LATE SUMMER AND REQUEENED ONCE. THEY WENT INTO = WINTER WITH VIRTUALLY NO STORES AND NOT MANY BEES. I DIDN'T EVEN TREAT = FOR MITES. I FIGURED THEY WOULD STARVE OUT OR AT LEAST DIE OUT FOR LACK = OF BEES FOR A CLUSTER. =20 WHEN I WALKED BY THE SHED I NOTICED SOME DEAD BEES ON THE LANDING = PLATFORM. WHEN I POPPED THE COVER THERE WAS A SMALL CLUSTER OF VERY = ACTIVE BEES JUST UNDER THE INNER COVER. ALTHOUGH THEY PROBABLY WILL = NEVER BUILD UP ENOUGH TO SURVIVE I FED THEM RATHER THAN LET THEM STARVE = AND AM CURIOUS AS TO HOW THEY WILL FAIR FOR THE REMAINDER OF THE WINTER. COLEENE CENTRAL LOWER MICHIGAN ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 12:22:10 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Doug & Dawn Subject: specifics on bee lab closure MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Can someone write the specifics of the bee lab closures to help with the letter writing. I will take the information to my bee club meeting and get the members to write letters to our politicians. I did not save the email with details on the labs, or bills that affects them. I am sure that one of you out there has this information at his fingertips. The list of people to write that was posted was impressive and will be helpful. I know that most of these politicians only respond to people in their own territory so I am guessing that it would not be very helpful for those of us in Oregon to write the politicians from other states. Douglas Honey Love Ranch, Bandon Oregon ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 14:13:13 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Dr. Pedro Rodriguez" Subject: Re: Trachael mites Comments: cc: beepress@ctv.es Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Hello fellow beekeepers and Bee-L'ers. It is disappointing, at best, to read that North American beekeepers continue to ignore research with FGMO and reports posted on the web. Contrary to North American experience, Spanish beekeepers who use FGMO are experiencing tracheal mite free hives. Anyone having any doubts should write to Mr. Elias Gonzalez, for one, beepress@ctv.es who several years ago stated on Bee-L "I have never seen cleaner trachea since I have been using FGMO", or words to that effect. The mechanism of action is rather simple (and very accurate), FGMO in fog form penetrates the trachea where the mites are and kills them in situ. Since FGMO fog is aprx. 15 microns in size, honey bees can breath FGMO without harm. Best regards. Dr. Rodriguez -- __________________________________________________________________ Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop@Netscape! http://shopnow.netscape.com/ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 17:38:21 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Trachael mites MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > My suggestion is to not treat for Tracheal Mites and to instead "take your > losses", and make your small contribution to developing wide-spread > resistance. This is a possible answer, but only for those who do not buy their queens. Moreover, that group, the solution can work only for those who are in areas where neighbours' drones do not predominate. For those who cannot hope to control the genetics in their hives, treatment is the only solution. Losses will not result in any improvement unless the beekeeper is able to breed from only tracheal mite survivors. allen ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 17:59:30 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Trachael mites MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > It is disappointing, at best, to read that North American beekeepers > continue to ignore research with FGMO and reports posted on the > web. Contrary to North American experience, Spanish beekeepers > who use FGMO are experiencing tracheal mite free hives. Many, if not most, BEE-L readers have not been aware of the URL of the information to which you refer, and have only seen the older information about other methods you tried in the past. It is unfortunate that this information has not been widely advertised here on BEE-L or on sci.agriculture.beekeeping. Perhaps you could post the URL of the information to this list and, if you wish, also give a summary of the method and the tests that have now proven it effective, along with your latest recommendations. Thanks in advance. allen ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 21:40:46 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: PATIENT-Collected bees for apitherapy Comments: To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello James and All, Thanks to James for his as always excellent ideas. I will ad a few comments. I have given jars of bees to biology students, to the KC Zoo to feed birds which only eat bees and many people for bee venom therapy. Honestly how much trouble could you get into filling a jar with honey bees for people? You keep bees and people need bees. Write a receipt that the bees you give are to be used for research only and keep a copy. Sell the bees for less than a dollar but PLEASE do not turn a person wanting bees for BVT away. I will continue to give the bees away and take my chances as BVT is not considered the way it was 20 years ago. I suspect my liability would cover selling bees because I sell bees as nucs. What's the difference? After the person leaves your property then the bees are HIS or HER property. You can do whatever with your property can you not? Both my parents had arthritis. My mother had crippling rheumatoid arthritis at a young age. Very painful. I have been keeping bees all my life and have got zero arthritis. Are the stings the reason?. I really do not understand why I do not have any arthritis. My doctor has even given me the arthritis test which came back negative. He does not understand why I do not have arthritis because arthritis runs in my family on both sides. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 20:36:19 -0500 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Fischer Subject: Re: specifics on bee lab closure Comments: cc: "dfgibbs@HARBORSIDE.COM" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Douglas said: > Can someone write the specifics of the bee lab closures to help with > the letter writing. I will take the information to my bee club meeting > and get the members to write letters to our politicians. Sure. Here ya go. Here's what is required to restore the funding that the proposed 2003 USDA budget neglects to fund, according to the respective lab directors. Beltsville $1.46 million (verified by lab director) Tuscon $1.7 million (verified by lab director) Baton Rouge $1.5 million (my UNVERIFIED wild guess, but I expect to have a firm number Monday or Tuesday, and will post it) TOTAL $4.66 million The total USDA proposed budget is $74.4 billion The money "at risk" is a mere 0.006% of the total. That is six thousandths of one percent!! > I know that most of these politicians only respond to > people in their own territory so I am guessing that it > would not be very helpful for those of us in Oregon to > write the politicians from other states. If you want to write committee chairpeople, this would be reasonable for anyone from anywhere. But, yes, "your" congressman, or at least one from your state who sits on an appropriate committee is your best bet. Here's where to find your own congressperson by entering your zip code: http://www.house.gov/house/MemberWWW.html Time is short - the House Appropriations subcommittee will consider the ARS budget on February 28. The Senate gets it on March 14. jim farmageddon ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 21:05:09 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Trachael mites MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Lloyd and All, Lloyd wrote: My suggestion is to not treat for Tracheal Mites and to instead "take = your losses", and make your small contribution to developing wide-spread = resistance. I would not recommend this method if keeping Italian bees. Carniolans = have long shown a tracheal mite tolerance but Italians have shown a = weakness.=20 I check bees on a regular basis for others and many times the problems = the beekeeper is having is tracheal mites when trying to run italian = bees without any TM treatment. Lloyd wrote: My own 100+ colonies have not been treated for Tracheal Mites in many = years. Every year I know I lose some to the effects of Tracheal = infestation, but I consider that a price paid along the way to = wide-spread resistance. I mourn the losses, but at fewer than 20% of my = hives, they are certainly at an acceptable level and are quickly = replaced by splits. I have heard the above before many times. It takes a few years but = eventually the infestation level will climb. Proper testing is the only = way you can be sure TM levels are not approaching high levels. For = reasons I do not understand myself bees can stay at a 10% or less = infestation rate year after year and then one year reach levels over the = winter in which the hives can not be saved. You simply find a small = softball cluster of bees and most clusters for some unknown reason to = me are queenright=20 The hive will be full of honey and pollen in most cases. I have tried = to save a few of these hives but to no avail. Adding brood and bees = only buys time as the infestation is overwhelming. Maybe others on the = list will comment but the above is what I have seen.=20 Not meant to be a putdown of Richard Taylor and as a reader of his = monthly column Richard recommended for years no need to treat for = Nosema. Those on the list which have read his column for years know what = I am saying. A couple years ago Richard almost lost all his bees and the problem was = nosema . Richard did not try to hide the reason his bees died but told = things as they were. My kind of beekeeper.! I usually find nosema in = samples of bees which have not had any fumidil-B in a couple years. = Nosema can stay at low levels when not treating as Richard said but for = reasons unknown to me the nosema can quickly reach high levels over a = winter.=20 Nosema is easily tested for without a glass . For years ads in bee = magazines showed the method. Simply take the worker bee and hold the = head down on a flat surface. Take your finger nail and place right above = the stinger and spread the bee apart exposing the mid gut. Slightly = brown (not white) and not swollen is ok. White and swollen indicates = nosema. I have NEVER had a case I diagnosed in the field for nosema not = be nosema when put under the microscope. I had a beekeeper once which = brought about 200 bees. Each bee of 200 had a swollen white mid gut. He = thought I was pulling his leg until I went outside to one of my hives = and grabbed a couple of nosema free bees to dissect and show him. = Sincerely, Bob Harrison Ps . My computer has been putting out posts with equal marks. Thanks = to All which have sent remidies. I tried all of them to no avail. = My computer guru will be back in town in a week or two so maybe we = can get things straightened out. Thanks to the moderators for running = my posts as I would have to remain silent otherwise until fixed. = Sorry for any inconvience. If my posts quit coming you will know = the moderators have quit running my posts and I will be back when my = posts are correct. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 19:16:12 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob Bassett Subject: Re: Collecting bees for apitherapy. In-Reply-To: <200202081411.g18EBuA05096@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Tim and Friends, I keep bees for apitherapy. I usually take out a honey frame and shake the bees onto a full sheet of newspaper and immediately fold the paper over onto the bees. The bees will mill around between the sheets of the newspaper without taking flight. I then have time to place the honey frame, back into the hive, and close up the hive. I have a 1 quart plastic peanut butter jar which I use to gather up a quantity of bees. The lid of the jar is drilled with many 1/8" holes. I grasp the folded newspaper by the opposing corners and give it quick shake or two. The bees are now gathered in a line down the center of the folded paper. At this point, I usually just open the paper and scoop up whatever quantity of bees I want into the mouth of the jar, shake them gently into the bottom of the jar and then screw the lid on. I then just shake the rest of the bees, left on the paper, on the hive entrance. The bees are usually cooperative and this method is very easy for me. I have been doing this for years. Bob Bassett rj.bassett@wellspoke.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 20:02:46 -0500 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Bee Keeping Industry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John Edwards said: > I am glad that I am not responsible for choosing > between expensive research and lower production. Expensive? Here's what is required to restore the funding that the proposed 2003 USDA budget neglects to fund: Beltsville $1.46 million (verified by lab director) Tuscon $1.7 million (verified by lab director) Baton Rouge $1.5 million (unverified wild guess) TOTAL $4.66 million The total USDA proposed budget is $74.4 billion The money "at risk" is a mere 0.006% of the total. That is six thousandths of one percent!! If worst comes to worst, and the funding is not restored, here's a fallback plan: a) There are roughly 130,000 US beekeepers b) $4.66 million split equally would be $35 each. Wow - research is cheaper than buying ONE package. Research will help your packages survive. Seems pretty inexpensive to me. So, buy a package of invisible bees for science! There is one thing 100 times cheaper - a 35-cent stamp for a letter to a member of the agriculture budget committee to ask them to restore the funding. Here's the list. http://agriculture.house.gov/members.htm Here's where to find your own congressman, by entering your zip code: http://www.house.gov/house/MemberWWW.html Time is short - the House Appropriations subcommittee will consider the ARS budget on February 28. The Senate gets it on March 14. (Do NOT send e-mail, send a postcard or letter. Congress ignores e-mail, but pays attention to paper.) Why is this so? My guess is: a) The pen is mightier than the sword b) A picture is worth a thousand words Therefore, a picture postcard, or a letter with a photo enclosed is clearly the ultimate attention-getting weapon. Fire at will. jim farmageddon ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 22:41:40 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: California winter MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > As some of you may remember, this is the bee yard where we collected 10 > queens last June and shipped them to Jim Tew, Gard Otis, and Zachary Huang > for an experiment they are conducting. They obtained 10 queens from each > of three geographic locations, where beekeepers had not treated colonies > with anything to control varroa. This is very interesting. Can you name those other two areas? Do the bees you are mentioning have any other unusual characteristics, or are they apparently just like other local bees? allen http://www.internode.net/honeybee/diary/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 07:12:27 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Old World bees In-Reply-To: <20020210020859.19332.qmail@web12401.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Dee Lusby: >As for Eva Crane. Well everyone has their own opinion of the >paintings and also you must have access to them. Also the pottery >that is around to look at. I got the book "North American Indian Rock Art" by Klaus Wellmann that Eva Crane refers to in her book. There are over 900 photographs and not one has anything that even looks like a bee (not to the author, not to me). The Mayans regarded the stingless bee as sacred and included it in their art, so other cultures would surely have wanted to draw it, along with the snakes, lizards, birds, mountain sheep, etc. that they did draw. But you can't tell what *species* of animal they were trying to draw any more than you can from a kid's drawing. I have read most of Eva Crane's books, they are the best books on bees I have ever seen. I suggest you read them and forget your theories. -- Peter Borst ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 04:38:48 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: dan hendricks Subject: Daffodil Pollen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, Norman. In Seattle 95% (+/-) of the flowers are of no interest to the bees. Among those is the daffodil. It seems so strange because they are loaded with pollen and my bees are enthusiastic foragers of pollen. In fact, I have to use pollen traps to keep them from plugging up the hive with it. But not to worry. The bees know what they are doing. Dan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings! http://greetings.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 04:40:23 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: dan hendricks Subject: Tracheal Mites MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii It takes a world of gall to disagree with Lloyd about anything but here goes. There is one giant distinction one needs to make when considering genetics and resistance. If you do not raise your own queens then your practices do not project anything into future generations. (I don't consider the influence of your drones to be significant.) It is the queen breeder who needs to ask what characteristics he may be exaggerating by deciding which queens to use as breeders. Dr. Diana Sammataro demonstrated that kneeping grease patties in the hive 12 months of the year reduces the population of tracheal mites to below the level of economic damage. Dr. Steve Sheppard demonstrated that adding mint oils substantially increased their efficacy. Best of all, EPA accepts the use of both even while extracting supers are on the hive so "treatment" can be continuous. There is no reason to think bees store mint oil and grease in the supers and they are both food products anyway. Address , click on "PSBA Forum" and scroll down to "The Role of Mint Oils in Suppressing Varroa Mites" for formulas. See also . I urge you not to impose either mite on your bees. Dan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings! http://greetings.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 09:54:57 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Closing of bee labs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jim Fischer is doing us all a favor by providing valuable perspectives and means of contacting members of congress. However, I am just a little troubled by a matter of principle. That is, as far as government is concerned "less is better". And, we all presumably agree that there is massive waste and inefficiency in government programs, until it is "our" ox that is gored. Is that right? I am appalled that agricultural programs and subsidies are #2 in federal spending, behind only defense spending. (Or so I have recently heard.) And this is after the proposal to cut spending by closing the four labs, not that they make much of a difference. Personally, Jim's perspectives have led me to believe that the federal government should significantly reduce spending on agricultural programs and subsidies, but not reduce the amounts spent on honeybee research. Do we know what position ABF is taking on this? Lloyd Mailto:Lloyd@rossrounds.com. Lloyd Spear Owner, Ross Rounds, Inc. The finest in comb honey production. Visit our web site at http://www.rossrounds.com. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 21:56:15 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Bees of the Americas? In-Reply-To: <200202110031.g1B0VIA06401@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi to all on BEE-L I wrote: >Also, if the first trip by Columbus brought back wax and I >am sure others did also, then has any of this wax been >sampled and analyzed to see what type of bees made it? Adrian Wenner replied: If the wax Columbus had used, in fact, had been some type of beeswax, it could well have been from Trigona and/or Melipona colonies that natives inthe Yucatan had been keeping for centuries before the arrival of Columbus (see Eva Crane's books on that matter). Reply: Yes, Adrian I understand this, so I repeat: Has any of this early wax been sampled and analyzed to what type of bees made it from early voyages from America back to Europe? Isn't there any samples of early wax to be found in any museums in Europe that could be sampled? Or not a question answers are wanted for??? Easier to say seperate species for AHBs, then search for better possible roots/heritage? Regards, Dee (p.s. I will look up Barton ref in the library when I get time). __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings! http://greetings.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 10:46:28 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Eunice Wonnacott Subject: Re: PATIENT-Collected bees for apitherapy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob: So what is the answer for those of us who DO have arthritis, but are allergic to bee sting? After keeping bees for 20 years, I gave it up when my neighbour across the road installed 26 colonies in his front yard! Fortunately my doctor and I have at last found a medication which gives good relief.without serious side effects (so far). EDW----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob & Liz" To: Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2002 11:40 PM Subject: Re: PATIENT-Collected bees for apitherapy > Hello James and All, > Thanks to James for his as always excellent ideas. > > I will ad a few comments. > > I have given jars of bees to biology students, to the KC Zoo to feed birds which only eat bees and many people for bee venom therapy. > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 11:27:50 -0500 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Fischer Subject: The USDA Budget and the Bee Labs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just to help put the issue of not funding the bee labs into perspective, here are some excepts from the proposed USDA FY2003 budget. It is interesting to note how small an amount of money is needed to keep our bee labs open by contrasting the amount with other, somewhat related programs where much larger amounts are allocated. The document is at: www.usda.gov/agency/obpa/Budget-Summary/2003/2003budsum.htm Total USDA FY2003 Budget $74.443 billion Amount needed for the bee labs $ 4.6 million Proposed 2003 Agricultural Research Service budget $ 1.066 billion (The bee labs are part of ARS) Bioterrorism Preparedness $ 5.9 billion (A good example of a successful "bioterror attack" would be cucumbers at $4 each due to no pollination.) Increased Food Security $ 462.1 million (So they want to "protect" food, but spend nothing to insure that fruits and veggies are pollinated in the first place.) Budget increase for plant/animal health monitoring $ 48 million (Quick - name a animal in US agriculture with more problems than bees. If cattle farmers were losing up to half their herds every year, they would call out the national guard!) Budget increase for protecting US agriculture from attack by animal and plant diseases, insects, and other pests $ 34 million (Why nothing for bees? They are certainly under attack.) CCC funds allocated to combat unforeseen outbreaks of pests and diseases in 2001 $ 335 million (I'd call varroa and hive beetles "unforeseen", wouldn't you? Tracheal mites are "unseen", unless you have a microscope.) But wait, that's not all... there are even some line items that force one to ask if the USDA is wasting much more money than the bee labs would need. I'm no expert in running government agencies, but I do know quite a bit about high-tech projects, and I'll tell you that a child of 12 can save at least 10% on any federally-funded technology project by simply asking a few questions. Some obvious examples are below. >From "Federal Computer Week" (and you thought beekeeping magazines where an obscure type of publication!) www.fcw.com/fcw/articles/2002/0204/web-usda-02-06-02.asp USDA Overall Information Technology $1.6 billion A 13% spending increase over 2002 Gosh, you'd think that with computer and networking prices having gone down so much, they would be able to show a budget reduction in this area. My lab's techno-toy "actuals" are 20% under the projection, year to date, and bits, bytes, and nanoseconds are our primary product. USDA "Common Computing Environment" 2002 $ 59.4 million USDA "Common Computing Environment" 2003 $133.2 million The idea behind the "CCE" is to replace just about every box smarter than a toaster in every USDA office with a new one, and network them with a brand new network. This will allow farmers to apply for crop loans and price supports without the bother of going down to the extension office, and will also (and I quote here): "Allow a USDA employee to work 'directly in a cornfield' collecting data instead of sitting in an office." If all this is true, it would appear that they can close some extension offices rather than the bee labs. The farmers will not need to go to the offices, and the employees will all be "out in the field", using their shiny new laptop computers all the time! Forest Service Radios $ 32 million With 30,000 employees total, that means the USDA wants to spend over $1,000 per employee for walkie-talkies to be used by field personnel [rangers] only! How many of the 30,000 are "field staff"? No one is telling, but it has to be a small fraction of the total. "Reconfigure Project 615 GIS" $119.5 million No one seems to be able to explain why the USDA needs to "reconfigure" their GIS (computer mapping) systems, but the term "reconfigure" implies a technology project than some fool drove into a tree at 60mph, and a need to scrap it and start over. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 14:01:29 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Dr. Pedro Rodriguez" Subject: Re: Trachael mites Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Allen Dick wrote: >Many, if not most, BEE-L readers have not been aware of the URL of the >information to which you refer, and have only seen the older information >about other methods you tried in the past. It is unfortunate that this >information has not been widely advertised here on BEE-L or on >sci.agriculture.beekeeping. Hi Allen and other fellow Bee-L'ers: I now realize what Allen is saying. Because of large scale controversy in my earlier years with FGMO research, I have depended on Barry's generosity, and posted my contributions to beesource.com hoping that the animosity would ease with time as progress with FGMO showed its worth. Strangely enough, I started FGMO research based on my original veterinary work with mineral oil for the treatment of mites in rabbits and cats, and as an alternative to Crisco patties for honey bees. My great surprise came when I stumbled unto the Burgess Fogger and realized that it worked very well for applying mineral oil. Yet, my best surprise came when I realized that because of the size of the oil particle,(15 microns), the bees were breathing the oil and taking it directly to the location of the mites, to their trachea, without the least harm to the bees and yet soon discovered that the tracheal mites were gone. Applying mineral oil with a Burgess Fogger is not only effective, but also easy and economical. FGMO can be applied to thousands of hives (right though the hive entrance) in a fraction of the time that it takes to apply other treatments, with less work and without disturging the bees. It is hoped that Bee-L readers will visit beesource.com for recent information on FGMO research. As always, I am available to provide information regarding FGMO to those who may wish to have more specifics beyond the information posted on beesource.com Best reagrds. Dr. Rodriguez thier trachea. for >Perhaps you could post the URL of the information to this list and, if you >wish, also give a summary of the method and the tests that have now proven >it effective, along with your latest recommendations. > >Thanks in advance. > >allen > -- __________________________________________________________________ Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop@Netscape! http://shopnow.netscape.com/ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 17:54:36 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: PATIENT-Collected bees for apitherapy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You kept bees for 20 years, but now are allergic stings, you say. And there are now 26 colonies of bees across the street from you. Gosh, why don't you go to a KNOWLEDGEABLE allergist and get desensitized? Most allergists know about sneezing and so-called hay fever, but know almost nothing about honey bee stings. In 1964, I had been keeping bees, 50 colonies, for 31 years and suddenly got about 40-50 stings when making a shake swarm. I went into mild anaphylactic shock; and the hospital allergist told me to STOP BEEKEEPING. I am a scientist, and that solution did not sit well with me at all, so I contacted both Dr. Golden and Dr. Valentine at Johns Hopkins in Baltimore. Golden and Valentine spent their entire lives doing research on allergy to honey bee stings. They desensitized me, and advised me to get stung often, even once each day for the rest o f my life, and I would be fine. That was 38 years ago, and I get almost a sting every day ever since and 2002 starts my 70th year of beekeeping in Maryland. On rare occasions, I have received 20 stings in an hour, suffering local pain only, with no swelling, no shock, and just mad at myself for making some stupid mistake. George Imirie EAS CERTIFIED MASTER BEEKEEPER Author of George's PINK PAGES ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 22:16:23 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tom Barrett Subject: Bee Labs closures Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello All Is it worth while for a resident outside the USA to send an e mail asking that the proposed closures be reconsidered and if so to whom? Sincerely Tom Barrett Dublin Ireland ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 12:42:09 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Adrian Wenner Subject: Early American beeswax? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Dee Lusby asked (once again): >Has any of this early wax been sampled and analyzed to what >type of bees made it from early voyages from America back >to Europe? Isn't there any samples of early wax to be found >in any museums in Europe that could be sampled? As far as I can recall, Columbus, according to his ship's log, had used the wax (whatever kind it was) to seal an account of his trip into a floating container in the event that he didn't make it back to Spain (the old note in a bottle trick). That would indicate that we would have only his log to rely upon, not the actual wax that he used. Adrian Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home phone) 967 Garcia Road (805) 893-8062 (UCSB FAX) Santa Barbara, CA 93106 [http://www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/index.htm] ***************************************************** * * "We not only believe what we see: * to some extent we see what we believe." * * Richard Gregory (1970) * ***************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 12:42:00 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Adrian Wenner Subject: Re: California winter Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" In reference to the following message: >> As some of you may remember, this is the bee yard where we collected 10 >> queens last June and shipped them to Jim Tew, Gard Otis, and Zachary Huang >> for an experiment they are conducting. They obtained 10 queens from each >> of three geographic locations, where beekeepers had not treated colonies >> with anything to control varroa. Allen Dick inquired: >This is very interesting. Can you name those other two areas? No, I don't know the other two areas. Gard Otis (gardotis@hotmail.com) would know. >Do the bees >you are mentioning have any other unusual characteristics, or are they >apparently just like other local bees? No, we see nothing unusual; they are just a mongrel lot, with queens varying in color from very dark to very light. Right now scout bees are checking out one of the swarm hives in our yard here in downtown Santa Barbara. They would be from another survivor colony --- not maintained by any beekeeper. Adrian Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home phone) 967 Garcia Road (805) 893-8062 (UCSB FAX) Santa Barbara, CA 93106 [http://www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/index.htm] ***************************************************** * * "We not only believe what we see: * to some extent we see what we believe." * * Richard Gregory (1970) * ***************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 21:41:21 -0500 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Closing of bee labs Comments: cc: "Lloyd@rossrounds.com" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lloyd Spear said: > ...as far as government is concerned "less is better". > And, we all presumably agree that there is massive waste > and inefficiency in government programs, until it is "our" > ox that is gored. Is that right? Not a fair characterization at all. Quick, name something else in agriculture that is now under "attack" from as many different pest and diseases as bees are now. ...stumped? Well, there's your answer. None. You mentioned someone's "ox being gored". Funny you should mention oxen. Realize that if cattle or diary farmers started losing up to half their herds each year to diseases and pests, it would be a "national emergency". In fact, for ANY group of farmers to take the sort of losses beekeepers have suffered would be a "national emergency". Here's an example of what elected officials can do when they understand that a disease or pest threatens an industry... Orange growers in Florida had a problem with "citrus canker". The government simply suspended the US Constitution in Florida (the minor detail in the 4th Amendment about "search and seizure") and has government employees trespassing on private property at whim, and cutting down and burning EVERY citrus tree in South Florida, sick or healthy, that is within 1900 feet of any tree that is even suspected of being "infected". Anyone who attempts to stop them, perhaps to point out that their trees are healthy and inspected/treated by professionals is arrested and jailed. Is citrus canker a disease that kills orange trees? No, it merely blemishes the fruit, most of which becomes juice anyway. How do I know this? I still own a few houses in Ft. Lauderdale left over from the days when I was played Monopoly with real houses and money. They all had nice big citrus trees that were looked after by well-paid pros. "Had" is the operative word. Not any more. > Personally, Jim's perspectives have led me to believe that the > federal government should significantly reduce spending on > agricultural programs and subsidies, but not reduce the amounts > spent on honeybee research. I cannot comment on subsidies, as I cannot claim to understand even the basic theory behind them. Laplace transforms? Child's play. Superstring theory? Sure. Quantum Chromodynamics? Easy! Agricultural Subsidies? Sorry, too tough for me. But one need not reduce spending on other programs to keep the bee labs working - the amount required is the sort of money that the federal government spends on paperclips. To be honest, there are lots of places the USDA can scrape up a mere $4.6 million dollars in a $74.4 BILLION dollar budget. If money must be shuffled around, the "perspective" is nothing more than expecting resources to be focused on problems. Bees are agricultural "leverage" - tiny, cheap, but mission critical to the bigger picture. If you have limited money, who do you send to the doctor? The sick one, or the one that is not sick? If we had nothing more than AFB and tracheal mites to deal with, I might agree that some belt-tightening was appropriate. But this is not belt-tightening, this is amputation. It is amputation of the brains of the industry, just when we need them most. jim ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 19:26:15 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: KATHY PRESLEY Subject: moving hives in late winter/early spring Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Greetings, I have been keeping bees for almost one year now, and at the moment have 2 hives. I live outside of Atlanta, Georgia, in the United States. Currently the weather is mid50's in the daytime, low to mid 30's (Farenheit) at night. I have a chance to get 2 more free abandoned hives of bees, a friend in Alabama bought some land and the previous owner left them! When would be the best time to get the hives? I am well aware that they will need care and treatment for pathogens and problems. thanks Kathy in Lawrenceville ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 18:28:00 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Bees of the Americas? In-Reply-To: <20020211055615.96734.qmail@web12401.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" On the subject of New World beeswax: >Tribute lists for 1549 show that out of 173 towns and villages >paying tribute to the Spanish, 163 paid in wax and 157 in honey. The >Maya valued beeswax very much less than honey. On the other hand the >Spanish needed much wax for candles. The 1549 tributes included >about 3 tonnes of honey and *277 tonnes* of wax. > >Wax from stingless bees was of lower quality that honey bee wax for >making candles. Nevertheless during the mid 1600s it was one of the >most important exports from Yucatan, ranking with salt, cotton >cloth, indigo and hides. The wax - known as "cera de Campeche" - was >the best beeswax produced in the New World until honey bees were >introduced. from "The World History of Beekeeping and Honey Hunting", by Eva Crane, 1999 -- Peter Borst ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 23:18:21 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jeffrey Lavett Subject: Re: Bees of the Americas? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A good first step might be to look at the ships'' manifests, which likely contained good quantities of EHB wax from Europe. > Reply: > Yes, Adrian I understand this, so I repeat: > > Has any of this early wax been sampled and analyzed to what > type of bees made it from early voyages from America back > to Europe? Isn't there any samples of early wax to be found > in any museums in Europe that could be sampled? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 02:42:20 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: African Bees in Spain MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In examining the report at http://www.beesource.com/pov/rodriguez/fgmo2001report.htm I notice that there is reference to African bees in Spain as well as to European bees in the quote below: "Molecular characterization was based on DNA mitochondrial sequence, according to which are classified the four evolutionary lineages of honey bees present in Spain, African A in the southern peninsula and Western European M in the north. " I wonder how long each has been in that country and what separates them, if anything. allen http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/Diary/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 04:44:31 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: FGMO Fog Study MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>>... It is unfortunate that this information has not been widely advertised here on BEE-L or on sci.agriculture.beekeeping.<<< > It is hoped that Bee-L readers will visit beesource.com for recent information on FGMO research. http://www.beesource.com/pov/rodriguez/fgmo2001report.htm is the direct URL to the study in question. Thank you for bringing this study to our attention. I doubt that many of us were aware that it had been done and posted to the web. It seems appropriate that this topic should come up again here for discussion, since Dr. Rodriguez first mentioned his use of FGMO at the ABF after generating considerable suspense back in 1997 here on BEE-L. (see http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind9701C&L=bee-l&P=R2090 ). Later on, the idea of using a fogger for mineral oil was first suggested here on this very list (see http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind9701E&L=bee-l&P=R1381) after initial work was done, and after it became apparent that a faster, more simple application method was needed if FGMO would ever be a mite control method of choice in commercial bee outfits. Many have called for a study to test FGMO, and I trust that even the sceptics will now read the study and consider adding FGMO fog to the list of effective controls, after evaluating FGMO for suitability in each geographic region and for each manner of operating. As well, for many, the report will need some study to determine if it answers all the questions. I know I have some. Although FGMO may now be proven, FGMO may or may not suit everyone; I recall that oil fog was tried and used in California in the very early days of TMites. For some reason, the practice did not catch on as far as I can tell. (Andy did not seem to have any comment about it when asked in '97), so we will see if it catches on now that there is a study on the subject and some successful users testifying to its efficacy. I spent a few hours this morning examining the report at beesource -- and also reading through the BEE-L archives (accessible directly from http://www.internode.net/honeybee/BEE-L/) using 'fog' with the substring box checked, and 'FGMO'. Fascinating stuff. Here is a sample: http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind9701E&L=bee-l&P=R1018 http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind9707A&L=bee-l&P=R225 --- My initial comments --- In looking over the report at http://www.beesource.com/pov/rodriguez/fgmo2001report.htm, I notice that the study actually uses oil fog AND treated cords. To quote, "The treatment consisted in applying food grade mineral oil vaporized (15 micron size particles) with a Burgess Propane Bug Killer and cotton cords coated with emulsified food grade mineral oil mixed with bees wax and honey: The experiment uses no controls. (Quote: "Since it is well known that untreated colonies die during the test period or soon thereafter,") As we are increasingly finding out nowadays, the assumption that all hives die without treatment is not universally true. Some hives maintain low mite loads indefinitely. Controls would definitely add to the credibility of the test, particularly since "The analysis reveals that all hives were infected with the destructor species, predominant in Europe, except hive No. 20 that was infected by the jacobsoni species". This last statement seems peculiar to me, and I await some discussion on this. How can one hive be infested with varroa j and maintain significant levels while all others are varroa d? We all know bees drift. We also know that one mite is much more virulent than the other. Although I have heard claims here that FGMO fog kills Tracheal mites, there is no mention of tracheal mites in the report. It is not entirely clear how many treatments were made, and on what dates, although I suppose I can deduce that about eight foggings and cordings were done from "The research project took place on 13 March to 16 July 2001 ", "The treatment consisted in applying food grade mineral oil vaporized (15 micron size particles) with a Burgess Propane Bug Killer and cotton cords coated with emulsified food grade mineral oil mixed with bees wax and honey.", and "Two pieces of the emulsion soaked cords were placed on top of the frames, and a stream of vapor (about two seconds per hive) was blown through the hive entrance every 15 days during the duration of the experiment." A two second burst is used each time. How much oil is applied in that burst? I did not see any comments on the effect on wax? Does FGMO build up over time to change the character of beeswax in the hive? The hive numbering seems peculiar. Were there other hives in the yard? Were there hives that were removed from the test? At first, looking at http://www.beesource.com/pov/rodriguez/table4.htm I see more than 100 mites per 100 cells in hive 2? As high as 1500? Or is this the mite drop? I conclude this is a drop count. The high counts in hive #2 throughout puzzles me as did half percentages in some of the 100 cell counts. I thank Dr. Pedro for doing all this work and presenting it so well. All in all it is very interesting reading and I will have to spend some more time on it. Hope to hear more comments and maybe some clarifications. allen PS: As it happens, I had no trouble finding the article at beesource, since the FGMO article happens to be currently headlined on the front page http://www.beesource.com/, making it easy to find. I imagine, however that it will move off the front page sometime soon and for that reason we ask contributors to give *exact* URLs that point directly to articles where possible, so that readers can go direct to the page in question and not poke around looking for the information. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 08:11:46 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Kathy Kathy, as to when to move to bees, you could do it right now, at night, as long as they are not too heavy to lift. If you have to split the hives to move them, perhaps you should wait till the nights are warmer, so you don't break up the brood pattern. Regards Tim ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 08:58:47 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Michael Housel Subject: Bee lab loss MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Orange growers in Florida had a problem with "citrus canker." The problem has been in Florida since the 1900 or 1901. We spend more for its correction yearly then the bees have gotten in history here. Florida is the only or one of the only that has full time bee inspectors. The money spent on canker has not cleared it but the Citrus Commission has money to work with. The canker team has made the best city maps available. If the beekeepers had the money behind them, like the citrus then we could get the labs funded. The problem is that the few beekeepers that make a living at beekeeping are not able to fund the research. One of the reasons is that the costs of operation is the low income. The hobbyists and the migration beekeepers need money from the operations. Things like pollination 50 dollars per hive per month minim. Honey prices that reflect a profit 1.00 per pound. This price would bring in honey from outside the country and will not benefit US honey. The problem is that the beekeepers are not only not making any money, but the city and developments have pushed the beekeepers out. We are losing the process of keeping our operations as well as areas to keep bees. If we take a penny from the operations it is just another penny we have to add to the money we add each year to stay in operation. So who is going to help: the honey board, the honey sales, maybe the wax sales, maybe the genetic engineered crops, government labs that we can't afford the chemicals after they develop them? Maybe raise the cost of the pollination to reflect profit. Maybe special tax all honey sold in the US to go to the research. Which will help the beekeepers all over the world when the answers are found? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 08:24:29 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Mark Subject: Re: FGMO Fog Study MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen Wrote: > > It is hoped that Bee-L readers will visit beesource.com for recent information on FGMO research. > > http://www.beesource.com/pov/rodriguez/fgmo2001report.htm is the direct URL to the study in question. > > Thank you for bringing this study to our attention. I doubt that many of us were aware that it had been done and posted to the web. It seems appropriate > that this topic should come up again here for discussion, since Dr. Rodriguez first mentioned his use of FGMO at the ABF after generating considerable suspense back in 1997 here on BEE-L. (see http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind9701C&L=bee-l&P=R2090 ). Reply: I've been following Dr Rodriguez's work too. The answer to some of your questions about the methodology, controls, and Tracheal mites may be answered in research conducted after 1997. Those reports are dated May and December 1999. The URL that lists all of his posted work is: http://www.beesource.com/pov/rodriguez/ Mark ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 08:30:44 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: FGMO Fog Study MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I've been following Dr Rodriguez's work too. The answer to some of your > questions about the methodology, controls, and Tracheal mites may be > answered in research conducted after 1997. Those reports are dated May and > December 1999. The URL that lists all of his posted work is: > http://www.beesource.com/pov/rodriguez/ Thanks. That helps. What I am looking for now is specific recommendations for treatment, giving doses, frequency of treatment, season, number of treatments, ambient conditions required, if any, etc. I would imagine that application must take place at temperatures sufficient that the bees are not clustered, but when most bees are likely to be home. It appears that the treatment for 8 or more times in the most recent work. Has anyone with experience using the technique generated any parameters and instructions on how to apply this method in non-experimental situations? allen http://www.internode.net/honeybee/diary/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 12:24:49 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Eunice Wonnacott Subject: Re: PATIENT-Collected bees for apitherapy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, February 11, 2002 6:54 PM Subject: Re: PATIENT-Collected bees for apitherapy > You kept bees for 20 years, but now are allergic stings, you say. Thanks for the reply. Actually, I reacted badly to stings from the outset, and received good support from my physician then, only to find within two or three years that the medication was also causing a reaction. I had managed to dress VERY CAREFULLY and avoid stings for a long time. Also I carry an epipen, but have never had to use it. Three years ago, when the multiple hives appeared, I decided to just give my equipment to a very young, interested, person, who would otherwise have been unable to get started. My beekeeping friends can easily supply my personal honey requirements. I get my "honey " pleasure from the wonderful fellowship among beekeepers, and a close association with the membership of our beekeepers co-operaqtive. Your advice regarding desensitization and multi stinging seems to follow the techniques developed by Mr. Mraz some years ago? His on stage demonstration was very impressive! Thanks again EDW ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 13:02:25 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Dr. Pedro Rodriguez" Subject: Re: African Bees in Spain Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 >"Molecular characterization was based on DNA mitochondrial sequence, >according to which are classified the four evolutionary lineages of honey >bees present in Spain, African A in the southern peninsula and Western >European M in the north. " > >I wonder how long each has been in that country and what separates them, if anything. Hello. I have theorized (for quite sometime now) that african bees have been in Spain for hundreds of years for two reasons. One, the distance across to Algeciras is short and their flight could have been assisted by air currents in that direction. Two, they could have been brought by the moors during their conquest of sourthern Spain. The Moors borught practically al their known cultural and personal belongings, so why not honey bees? I wil do more research into the subject and post my findings here. Happy beekeeping. Dr. Rodriguez > >allen > >http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/Diary/ > -- __________________________________________________________________ Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop@Netscape! http://shopnow.netscape.com/ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 13:14:11 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: African bees in the US Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Gene flow between neotropical African and European bees appears to be strongly asymmetrical. African bees have maintained their genetic integrity, in spite of hybridizing with European bees, as they have expanded their distribution over the last 40 years. Low acquisition of European traits into the African population can be attributed to pre and post zygotic isolating mechanisms, i.e. mate selection, queen developmental time and hybrid dysfunction. European bees become rapidly Africanized and nearly all traces of the nuclear and mitochondrial genome disappear from the feral bee populations following the arrival of African bees. The disappearance of the European traits seems to be due to a lack of pre reproductive isolation which results in extensive mating by European queens with African drones. This is followed by a pattern of queen development which favors hybrid rather than European queens. Matings by these F1 queens to African drones results in colonies with low fitness and the eventual loss of European mtDNA from the population. Displacement of European bees therefore seems to be due, in part, to a type of "genetic capture" in which one form, A. m. scutellata, eliminates the others by hybridizing with their females. This type of displacement may not be uncommon, a similar case is known for sulfur butterflies (Colias) (Grula and Taylor 1980). The genetic and population consequences of the interactions between A. m. scutellata and A. mellifera subspecies from Europe suggest that A. m. scutellata deserves the status of a semi-species. O. R. Taylor, In Press ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 11:36:03 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Richard Yarnell Organization: Oregon VOS Subject: Re: Bee lab loss In-Reply-To: <200202121412.g1CECtA24380@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Just full of helpful ideas, Richard suggests that some of our larger and mid-sized pollinators should get on the phone with their customers - the ones who have "clout" because they make lots of money and have recognizeable crops - and ask them to put in a good word for the bee industry, the labs, and gentle, impoverished beekeepers everywhere. If they know where their bread is buttered.... On Tue, 12 Feb 2002, Michael Housel wrote: > Orange growers in Florida had a problem with "citrus canker." ... > If the > beekeepers had the money behind them, like the citrus then we could get the > labs funded. --------------- Richard Yarnell, SHAMBLES WORKSHOPS | No gimmick we try, no "scientific" Beavercreek, OR. Makers of fine | fix we attempt, will save our planet Wooden Canoes, The Stack(R) urban | until we reduce the population. Let's composter, Raw Honey | leave our kids a decent place to live. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 15:05:08 -0500 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Fischer Subject: Confirmed Total To Save the Bee Labs is only $3.12 Million US MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Folks: Here are the confirmed figures regarding the Bee-Labs. Confirmation was provided by directors of Bee Labs themselves. Location Proposed Proposed Funds Reduction Transferred in Budget to Weslaco, TX Baton Rouge $1.14 million $300,000 Beltsville $1.63 million $369,222 Tucson $ 354,384 $722,199 -------------- ----------------- Totals $3.12 million $1.391421 million To explain: a) "Proposed Reduction in budget" is what is NOT funded in the proposed USDA budget. b) "Funds Transferred" are in the in the proposed USDA budget, but these funds are currently allocated to Weslaco, and need to be transferred BACK to whence they came to avoid the additonal expenses of moving scientists and projects needlessly. So, all that is really needed is a mere $3.12 million. Sorry for being a million dollars high in my guess. jim ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 14:59:32 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Dr. Pedro Rodriguez" Subject: Re: FGMO Fog Study Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Allen Dick wrote: Hi. In our own hives, we apply the emulsion soaked cords every two weeks up to the end of the season, including a treatment in the Fall for wintering. We realize that this might be too many treatments and are going to lessen the number of treatments this year for comparison. On the other hand, we have not lost any hives since we started treatment with FGMO. Hence, the number of treatments might balance the cost of lost hives. We do not "fog" when the bees are clustered, precisely because we do not wish to disturb the cluster for obvious reasons. We start fogging as soon as the bees start cleasing flights. This is an accepted practice for many beekeepers who are utilizing FGMO treatments. Best regards. Dr. Rodriguez -- __________________________________________________________________ Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop@Netscape! http://shopnow.netscape.com/ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 14:50:34 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Dr. Pedro Rodriguez" Subject: Re: FGMO Fog Study Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Mark wrote: Thanks for the assist, Mark. I hope that all Bee-L'ers and all interested aprties will feel free to contact me regarding questions that may not be found on beesource.com Best regards. Dr. Rodriguez -- __________________________________________________________________ Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop@Netscape! http://shopnow.netscape.com/ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 14:44:12 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Dr. Pedro Rodriguez" Subject: Re: FGMO Fog Study Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Allen Dick wrote: >checked, and 'FGMO'. Fascinating stuff. Here is a sample: > >http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind9701E&L=bee-l&P=R1018 >http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind9707A&L=bee-l&P=R225 > >--- My initial comments --- > >In looking over the report at >http://www.beesource.com/pov/rodriguez/fgmo2001report.htm, I notice that the >study actually uses oil fog AND treated cords. To quote, "The treatment >consisted in applying food grade mineral oil vaporized (15 micron size >particles) with a Burgess Propane Bug Killer and cotton cords coated with >emulsified food grade mineral oil mixed with bees wax and honey: > >The experiment uses no controls. (Quote: "Since it is well known that >untreated colonies die during the test period or soon thereafter,") As we >are increasingly finding out nowadays, the assumption that all hives die >without treatment is not universally true. Some hives maintain low mite >loads indefinitely. Hi to all. As always, I am grateful to Allen for his fairness and honesty regarding my work. My most sincere thanks to him and to those who have supported FGMO research. Beekeeping will be the beneficiary in the long run. Here are somen explantions to Allen's comments. 1. Tracheal mites. There is no mention of tracheal mites simply because there are no T-mites in these hives. It would be hard to make reference to them in this report, there is no reason. 2. Number of trreatments. Twice a month. Application of emulsion soaked cotton cords, and FGMO fog. A two second burst of FGMO was applied every time. We found that this amount of FGMO vapor was enough to place a considerable amount of vaporized oil within the entire hive. This was determined by opening the top of the hive and actually seeing the vapor flow through the frames and out of the hive. 3. FGMO build up. We have sent samples to state owned laboratories for residues (admitedly a mistake) and have not obtained residue test results. Samples for future projects will be sent to private operated laboratories. We will include residue test results in this year's report. 4. Hive numbering. The hives belong to a municipal goverment school. We felt obligated to keep their equipment, location, numbering system "as is" so as not to upset their system. We will be making appropriate changes in this aspect this year. Yes, there were other hives in the yard but we did not have control over them. 5. Hive No. 2. Yes, this is mite drop counts. This hive did not comform to standards at all. We believe that this hive lacks both hygienic behavior and mite resistance. It is the only explanation for its behavior when compared to the results of its neighbor hives. We are going to use this hive in this year's research to "prove/disprove" our thoughts regarding lack of these very important genetic traits. Half percentages. We thought that it would be important to show these percentages, even tough this low, because it reflects the efficacy of FGMO treatments. It did lower infestation levels that low. 6. Varroa d vs. Varroa j. This is considered a fortunate finding since we notice definite behavior patterns among hives in the same apiaries. Dr. Pilar de la Rua is an eminent researcher in DNA characterization, hence there is no doubt as to her findings. We plan to continue our search for the presence of V. j, here, precisely because of the difference in virulence between the two species. This no doubt will widen our perspectives for 2002. And yes, there will be control hives included even though we will have to dig into our personal funds a bit more for research funds. Hopefully, other researchers may be encouraged to persue this work with FGMO to possibly widen acceptability of its use. Best regards. Dr. Rodriguez -- __________________________________________________________________ Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop@Netscape! http://shopnow.netscape.com/ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 18:11:24 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Future of Beekeeping... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Kim and All, Kim wrote: For those interested, Dr. Shilling's entire talk, complete with graphs = (but without the humor), will be published in the March issue of Bee Culture. At the end of Dr. Shilling's talk at the ABF convention in Savannah Dr. = Shilling offered to send a copy of his book to those which asked free of = charge. I believe Dave Hamilton of our list asked for a copy. Did you = get yours yet Dave? I received a copy of Dr. Shillings book = *Deflation* today and was surprised to see the copy was signed by Dr. = Shilling with my name and "Best wishes". The book sells for $16 plus = shipping. Also was a copy of his monthly newsletter *Insight* which costs higher = for one month than one of my bee magazine subscriptions for a year. = Guess I will stick to my bee magazines. I plan to read Dr. Shillings book. In fact I am leaving to go out of = state tomorrow to pick up bee equipment with my partner. He reads the = list but too shy to comment. Maybe I will read Dr. Shilling's book to = him while we cross country. Kidding Glenn !. The book is 372 pages with 270 charts ( yes I counted the charts) and 29 = chapters. I believe in my own mind Dr. Shilling was trying help us understand what = *might* lay ahead for the beekeeping industry in his lecture and the = possible solutions. . After all you need to UNDERSTAND a problem to = solve a problem. How many times have Bee-L people told people that they were beekeepers = and watched the reaction? I have actually had people ask me if I am = crazy. You can imagine how unpopular beekeeping might seem to people = which might buy Dr. Shillings book. yet read the last sentence from = *about the author* from the book. =20 Below is from *about the author* Dr. Shilling is on the Board of Directors of National Life of Vermont, = the heartland Group of mutual funds, the American productivity and = Quality Center, Palm Harbor Homes, the Episcopal Evangelism Foundation = of which he is the chairman; and advisory director of Austin Trust = Company ; a trustee and the Treasurer of the General Theological = Seminary ; and a Chairman of the New jersey State Revenue forecasting = Advisory Commission. HE IS ALSO AN AVID BEEKEEPER Many people might have chosen to add the last sentence but Dr. Shilling = did not. As far as predicting. The book credits Dr. Shilling as the first = economist to forecast the demise of inflation with his book *Is = inflation ending? Are you ready? Published by McGraw Hill in the spring = of 1983. At that time few investors were prepared for what was to = transpire. People's investments, businesses, and personal lives were = geared to INFLATION LASTING FOREVER. In short Dr. Shilling was an excellent choice by Kim Flottum for the = speaker for the first lecture of the *A.I.Root Lecture Series*. Maybe Kim could post information for those wanting Dr. Shilling's book. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 20:53:25 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: moving hives in late winter/early spring MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Kathy, Many times, hives are abandoned because they have American Foul Brood. Since you are a beginner, I have to tell you that there is NO CURE for AFB. Some people are under the illusion that Terramycin is a treatment that cures AFB, but THERE IS NO CURE for AFB. The worst part is the AFB spore stays alive and well in the wood of a hive, and if you put new bees in that hive, your new bees immediately have AFB and must be fed Terramycin for the rest of their lives. Much more important is if you bring those hives in contact with your present hive, you have just "hand delivered" AFB into every hive in your apiary. Regarding moving them: Bees cluster at any temperature under 50°, and if the bouncing around during the trip breaks the cluster, it is possible that the bees die of cold. I would not move the bees at a temperature less than 50° to be on the safe side. But I would not touch them until they have been certified AFB free. George Imirie EAS Certified Master Beekeeper Beginning my 70th year of beekeeping in Maryland Author of George's PINK PAGES ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 22:00:35 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: African Bees in Spain Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" The great similarity between bees on both sides of the Strait of Gibraltar was noted by Brother Adam (1983). He speculated that bees spread from Africa to Europe through this route. Hepburn (1998) writes that the European and African lines all originated in the east and have been separate for a very long time, -- but that some hybridization between the two may have occurred in Spain. The bees in the northern part of Africa are physically isolated from the rest of Africa by the Sahara desert, so their relationship is probably quite distant. Many of these migrations probably took place when climate and geography was quite different than it is now. from Genetic diversity of the honeybee in Africa, P. Franck, et al. (Heredity, Volume 86 Issue 4 ) E-mail: pfranck@bio.usyd.edu.au >A total of 738 colonies from 64 localities along the African >continent have been analysed using the DraI RFLP of the COI-COII >mitochondrial region. Mitochondrial DNA of African honeybees appears >to be composed of three highly divergent lineages. > >The African lineage previously reported (named A) is present in >almost all the localities except those from north-eastern Africa. In >this area, two newly described lineages (called O and Y), putatively >originating from the Near East, are observed in high proportion. >This suggests an important differentiation of Ethiopian and Egyptian >honeybees from those of other African areas. > >The A lineage is also present in high proportion in populations from >the Iberian Peninsula and Sicily. Furthermore, eight populations >from Morocco, Guinea, Malawi and South Africa have been assayed with >six microsatellite loci and compared to a set of eight additional >populations from Europe and the Middle East. > >The African populations display higher genetic variability than >European populations at all microsatellite loci studied thus far. >This suggests that African populations have larger effective sizes >than European ones. According to their microsatellite allele >frequencies, the eight African populations cluster together, but are >divided in two subgroups. > >These are the populations from Morocco and those from the other >African countries. The populations from southern Europe show very >low levels of Africanization at nuclear microsatellite loci. -- Peter Borst ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 07:22:26 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Hamilton Subject: Re: Future of Beekeeping... In-Reply-To: <200202130202.g1D22gA04000@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Yes I did get Dr. Shillings book just last night in the mail. I also received a copy of his "Insight" monthly newsletter which I spent last night reading, looks like we may not yet be "at the end of the tunnel" economy wise. I was really surprised how easy it was to read as I generally am not into reading this type material. He is just plain a good author and I'm glad to see Kim is going to publish the talk. I'm sure we will have lots of follow up posts on that. Dave ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 04:48:47 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: African Bees in Spain MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All. When was the Strait of Gibraltar dry land? It's a shallow area which dries up regularly, resulting in regular periods when the Mediterranean, or much of it, also dries up. If my memory serves me right - I don't have any reference on this to hand - it was dry during the glaciations, when sea level was significantly lower than today. In that case bees would have been able to cross from Africa to Spain a few thousand years ago, on the same basis as they crossed from continental Europe to what is now Britain, across what is now the English Channel and the North Sea. Regards, Robert Brenchley RSBrenchley@aol.com Birmingham, UK. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 17:40:13 -0800 Reply-To: beekeeper82@yahoo.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Carm Subject: Beekeeping in Vancouver MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hello there, I have some friends that live in Oliver, B.C., which I guess is close to Vancouver. They are interested in starting to keep bees or at least getting some books and info on them. Does anyone on the list know of a bee supply store in the area? If so, please let me know... And if they have a web site, please send that as well. Thanks, Carm __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings! http://greetings.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 08:03:51 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: African Bees in Spain / Spanish bees in the USA MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > much of it, also dries up. If my memory serves me right - I don't have any > reference on this to hand - it was dry during the glaciations, when sea level > was significantly lower than today. In that case bees would have been able to > cross from Africa to Spain a few thousand years ago, on the same basis as > they crossed from continental Europe to what is now Britain, across what is > now the English Channel and the North Sea. Although possible, I think any possible land bridge would have been millions, not thousands of years ago, but who really knows. Here are two references: http://www.soc.soton.ac.uk/JRD/HYDRO/hlb/abgiblec.html http://www.uca.es/otros/anasim_gibraltar/english.html Personally, I suspect that commerce should have moved everything around in that area from time to time. Whether the bees have been there weeks or centuries is interesting, since we think that the Spanish may have brought their bees to the new world! DNA techniques are quite recent and comparisons depend completely on having correctly identified samples in the first place. If the bees brought to America in the first place were Africanised, and tended -- unlike those of the recent wave -- to gather and remain in pockets here and there under pressure from Europeanization and domestic beekeeping, then maybe current spotty sampling and DNA identification is flawed. I think you can all see where I am going with this... allen ********** with apologies to Adrian :) ********** * * "We not only believe what we see: * to some extent we see what we believe." * * Richard Gregory (1970) * ***************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 10:47:28 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Land bridge I don't think one need recourse to geology when talking about any African/Spanish connection. While as has been said, it's not even conceivable that during the 7 centuries of Moslem presence there were not bees moving between Iberia and Africa, one doesn't even have to use this example. Carthage dominated Spain a thousand years before this. Romans and Carthaginians even threw bees at each other duing sea battles. Allen's comments about the Spanish connection providing pockets of African bees before the Apis m.m. wave would go along way to explain the total lack of observable differences in some of my South African hives and one in particular of my Santa Maria Ca. "Black Spanish" hives. Very interesting topic indeed. Best Tim Vaughan ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 11:13:08 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: African Bees in Spain In-Reply-To: <200202131547.g1DFlSA27041@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 2/13/02 10:47 AM, you wrote: >it's not even conceivable that during the 7 centuries of Moslem presence there were not >bees moving between Iberia and Africa, one doesn't even have to use this >example. I am not so sure about people moving hives back and forth. Why would they move bees if there were already bees in those locations? The concept of moving hives originated from the need for bees in areas where they were not. The idea of moving a particular *type* of bee did not come about until much later, probably the 1800s. Also, although Apis Mellifera iberica and A. m. intermissa are related, they are certainly not identical. Iberica appears to be a transitional type between intermissa and A. m. mellifera, but is much more like mellifera (the European black bee). In fact, it is only by DNA analysis that we know that iberica and intermissa are related. One cannot assume that bees were transported across the seas in great numbers without some evidence. As far as the bees being used as weapons, I would imagine those died on duty pb ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 11:30:07 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Martin Damus Subject: Re: Land bridge Comments: To: tvaughan@CHARTER.NET Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >While as has been said, it's not even conceivable that during the 7 >centuries of Moslem presence there were not bees moving between Iberia >and Africa Sort of on topic - I've been told that in the Koran it states that every muslim should eat honey. Can anybody verify this? I am sure muslims/moslems have been moving bees and keeping them well before Europeans made a real go at it. When I was in Indonesia collecting bees for my master's it was hard *not* to find a beekeeper. Often the head of the village was the beekeeper, and I came across one village that had received government funding to become a beekeeping community (wouldn't that be nice?). Every eaves on every house was laden with hanging beehives, and many relatively modern wooden beehives were found throughout the whole village (maybe 15 houses). As a westerner I was asked for 'advice' on how to improve their operation. I noted that they had no bee space, so I passed that along. Their combs were often fused with propolis. The only place I visited that had no real beekeeping knowledge was the island of Flores - I was in a predominantly Christian area. Anyways, I still like to reminisce about that trip. Martin Damus ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 07:53:31 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Keith Malone Subject: "Black Spanish" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Tim & All, > Allen's comments about the Spanish connection providing pockets of African > bees before the Apis m.m. wave would go along way to explain the total lack > of observable differences in some of my South African hives and one in > particular of my Santa Maria Ca. "Black Spanish" hives. > > Very interesting topic indeed. Tim, could you describe the character and behavior of your "Black Spanish" bees that you have in Santa Maria CA.? Keith Malone Chugiak, Alaska USA starrier@yahoo.com http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney Check out current weather in my area and 5 day forecast; http://www.wx.com/myweather.cfm?ZIP=99654 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 10:03:40 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: African Bees in Spain MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I am not so sure about people moving hives back and forth. Why would they move bees if there were already bees in those locations? The concept of moving hives originated from the need for bees in areas where they were not. The idea of moving a particular *type* of bee did not come about until much later, probably the 1800s... One cannot assume that bees were transported across the seas in great numbers without some evidence. Human nature is evidence enough. Wherever people go, they take their favourite animals. I think that this trait is one constant in human history. Even today -- embargos or no embargos -- queen bees are travelling all over the world in the pockets of beekeepers every day. A beekeeper sees something he likes and takes a queen home. This will never change and, right or wrong, no law -- short of making transporting queens a capital offence -- can ever stop it. allen ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 14:46:33 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: "Black Spanish" They were darkish, but not black, too mean to work, didn't produce as much as the Italians next to them, and took up to several days to calm down after whatever manipulations were possible. They also built up very quickly, which is one thing I greatly liked about my Scuts. Regards Tim Vaughan ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 15:23:42 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Bees of the Americas? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" In the following excerpt the author makes the interesting point that beeswax was being shipped *from Spain* to the colonies, until beekeeping became established in the New World. >Beehives coming from Spain (containing the so-called castilian bees) and Portugal arrived in South America the beginning of the 19th century (the first hives probably arrived in Brazil between 1800 and 1839); they contained the breed A. mellifera iberica. > >Although no exact data exist about the transportation of the beehives from the Iberian peninsula to America, we can make an indirect approximation by the study of the wax trade. > >According to Law 3. title 9, book of the Recopilaciones, the Spanish Crown was obliged to provide the wine, oil and wax used during mass in the churches. Because the wax obtained from the indigenous bees of Yucatan and Cuba was scarce and of poor quality, it had to be imported from Spain. > >Wax was exported from Spain in two forms, worked and unworked (in containers known as Marquetas). Spanish exportations started gaining importance from the mid 17th century until the beginning of the 18th century American commercial apiculture started to become important at this time). > >The first beehives arrived in Brazil and were distributed to Chile and Peru from there. Bees are presumed to have arrived in Argentina from Chile, specifically Mendoza province, and in time came to be known as criol to distinguish them from the italian bees, which were brought over later. > >Mellifera and iberica breeds were probably introduced into Central America at the same time, depending on where the colonizers came from. > >Apiculture began in the second half of the 18th century in Cuba. Bishop Morell of Santa Cruz probably was the first to introduce it when in 1762, coming back from exile in Florida, he brought several beehives with him of the type then known as castillian bees. > >from: >BEES, APICULTURE AND THE NEW WORLD >ABEJAS, APICULTURA Y EL NUEVO MUNDO >Padilla, F., F. Puerta, J.M. Flores and M. Bustos. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 15:31:24 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Adrian Wenner Subject: "Black Spanish" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Tim Vaughan replied to Keith Malone's question about a colony of dark bees he had in Santa Maria, CA: >They were darkish, but not black, too mean to work, didn't produce as much >as the Italians next to them, and took up to several days to calm down >after whatever manipulations were possible. I had the same experience with my first colony (1960) in Santa Barbara. I hived up a swarm of dark bees and didn't even want to work with them. Shortly thereafter I switched to Italians. By contrast, the Curneen bees from the Eureka, CA area were black (not just dark) and easy to work. Is anyone on this list from the Eureka area? Adrian Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home phone) 967 Garcia Road (805) 893-8062 (UCSB FAX) Santa Barbara, CA 93106 [http://www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/index.htm] ***************************************************** * * "We not only believe what we see: * to some extent we see what we believe." * * Richard Gregory (1970) * ***************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 19:15:09 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Leland Hubbell Organization: Tekoa Subject: Winter in Central Ohio MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We have had several days so far this winter (and this year) when bees could clean out. I had occasion to open an electrical octagon box today, and it was full of yellow jackets, very much alive! It was under 40 deg F. so they didn't go far. The box serves a light about 12 feet in the air on a pole, so it is not protected. Hoping the bees benefit by the weather more than these critters. Leland Hubbell ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 00:18:47 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: African Bees in Spain / Spanish bees in the USA MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Allen and All, Allen wrote: DNA techniques are quite recent and comparisons depend completely on = having correctly identified samples in the first place. If the bees brought to America in the first place were Africanised, and = tended-unlike those of the recent wave-to gather and remain in pockets = here and there under pressure from Europeanization and domestic = beekeeping, then maybe current spotty sampling and DNA identification is = flawed. I agree with the above Allen has posted and several UDSA researchers = have privately and some publicly agree with the above. They feel the = original samples could have been wrong and even wing venation early = samples might not be correct Ruttner has voiced concern over the = above as early as 1975 when he was looking at the wing venation work = of DuPraw of a decade earlier. Sincerely, Bob Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 02:18:27 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: Beekeeping in Vancouver Carm: Have you checked out www.honeycouncil.ca? They have numerous links to Canadian suppliers. McCutcheon's Bee Books might be a good source of information. Doug and Eileen McCutcheon advertise in, at least, HiveLights and Canadian Beekeeping. The phone number in their ad is listed as 250-546- 9870. Their postal address is listed as 2525 Phillips St., Armstrong, BC, VOE 1B6. Regards, Dick ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 17:52:40 -0800 Reply-To: beekeeper82@yahoo.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Carm Subject: Bee supplies, Californians need any? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hello there, Some of you may remember me writing from California last year asking for information. I am currently not there, but the bees I was taking care of and quite a bit of new equipment still is. I bought a bunch of beekeeping clothing when I was there, as well as 100 supers and frames all # 1 grade, half deep half shallow, and wax coated plastic foundation as well. When I left there was 24 live hives. Now I need to get rid of it all, as I have no plans for living there again, and no one there can really take care if it properly. Is there anyone close to the Sacramento area that could use some things? If so please email me off the list. I will be willing to discuss it more in detail then. Thanks for your help. And another thing, when is almond pollination? Thanks again, Carmenie __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings! http://greetings.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 07:59:08 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Bee supplies, Californians need any? Comments: To: "beekeeper82@yahoo.com" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Carmenie and All, And another thing, when is almond pollination? Almond pollination is going on now and could be about over in certain areas. Sincerely, Bob Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 09:00:15 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Mares Subject: Re: niche market for honey Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Can someone define the "niche market" for retail honey? People bandy this term around and I don't know what it means. Secondly, how much of the 400 milion+ pound U.S. honey market is that niche? Thanks, Bill Mares/Mares Apiaries 429 South Willard St., Burlington, VT 05401 Phone: 802-863-4938 Fax: 802-864-7982 Bee Happy in your work! _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 09:13:01 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: What is an African Bee? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" What is an African bee? Unfortunately, it is not easy to tell. According to a report from the California Health Dept., "AHBs and EHBs are grossly indistinguishable and individual bees can be differentiated only by morphometry or mitochondrial DNA." Early on, the method used was making fine measurements of the wing veins. (American Bee Journal July 1987). Then as DNA analysis techniques improved, people began using this method to identify not only suspected AHBs but all the different honey bee "races" so that we could have a better picture of the geneology of the honey bee species overall. It was found that ALL African races share certain gene markers, and that some of these markers also appear in the bees native to Spain. It is not correct, however, to call the Spanish bees Africanized, since their genes are quite different and have much more in common with European bees than the bees of North Africa, and have little in common with tropical African bees. In fact, Ruttner says of A. m. iberica: "It survives the cold and long winters without difficulty. The definite proof of its "temperate" character became evident when transferred to the tropics of the New World: while A. m. mellifera and ligustica colonized temperate North America with feral populations immediately, iberica remained in need of shelter provided by men for centuries in tropical South America. No feral colonies of this race were found (see: O. R. Taylor, 1985). So how do you tell an African bee in the US? I mentioned morphometry (wing veins) and genetics (mitochondrial DNA). The third route is behavior. There are certain features of African bees which can be easily tested. First, laying worker latency. The African types develop laying workers much faster tan European. In the European this normally take about a month, whereas in African types workers begin to lay eggs in less than a week. The Tellian bee from Morocco (A. m. intermissa) has the shortest interval, about 5 days. Their comb building is different in several ways. The Africanized bees (scutellata) are smaller and build smaller cells. This was proposed by Rinderer as method if ID for Africanized bees in the US. Unfortunately, cell size varies and it takes time to get comb built. Another characteristic is that queenless European bees build drone cells. The Cape bee builds all worker cells. I don't have info on the other types. Finally, there is the matter of temper. If African bees weren't generally vicious, we wouldn't really care if we had them, I suppose. Everyone has had colonies that are vicious, so this is not a sure thing -- but I suggest that any hive that is more hostile than others in the same apiary should be requeened or killed. I suggest that feral colonies not be used as a source of bees unless one is certain where they came from. If one has a definite plan for maintaining stock from reliable sources, one has little to worry about. If one raises one's own queens in an area where there are a lot of feral colonies, one would be very vulnerable to Africanization. References available on request Peter Borst, Ithaca NY ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 07:12:24 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Pehling Subject: Re: Winter in Central Ohio In-Reply-To: <200202140029.g1E0TBA20149@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 13 Feb 2002, Leland Hubbell wrote: > We have had several days so far this winter (and this year) when bees > could clean out. > I had occasion to open an electrical octagon box today, and it was full > of yellow jackets, very much alive! It was under 40 deg F. so they > didn't go far. The box serves a light about 12 feet in the air on a > pole, so it is not protected. ==================== Are you SURE they are "yellow jackets" (_Vespula sp._)? Sounds more like a winter aggregation of paper wasps (_Polistes sp._). Yellow jackets are supposed to die out over winter except for solitary queens which overwinter in protected places. Papers wasps overwinter in aggregations of siblings. Cheers, Dave Pehling ============================================ | W.S.U. COOPERATIVE EXTENSION-SNOHOMISH CO. | | 600 128TH ST. S.E. | | EVERETT, WA. 98208 U.S.A. | | PHONE - (425)338-2400 | | FAX - (425)338-3994 | | EMAIL pehling@wsu.edu | ============================================ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 07:16:09 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Mike Tooley Subject: Re: Bee supplies, Californians need any? In-Reply-To: <200202141402.g1EE2VA07252@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For you midwesterners sitting home by the fire while your bees are busting their butts in California to make this years almond crop you can follow the bloom progress here Hope this link works.Cold weather was holding back the bloom but it is just about to start. -Mike ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 07:34:56 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Mike Tooley Subject: Re: "Black Spanish" In-Reply-To: <200202131947.g1DJluA08651@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Over 30 years ago I worked for a beeman that kept bees on the Nipomo mesa(not far from Santa Maria)I dont remember what color they were but I do remember the utter viciousness of those bees,and running through the eucylyptus forest trying to elude clouds of enraged bees.The first hive opened would pour out and trigger the hives next in a chain reaction.I would go home at night with hundreds of stingers stuck to my clothing.To this day ,I have seen a few mean hives but nothing like what that beeman kept.If those had been my bees I would have culled them one way or another!They matched the description for Africanized perfectly. -Mike ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 11:11:53 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Bees of Mexico Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I think the story of the Spanish importation of bees into the Americas would make an interesting tale, if it were fully know. Unfortunately, there are many gaps. Also, reading the story of the Spanish takeover of the New World is to be reminded of how ugly they were. They killed or enslaved the natives wherever they went. Anyway, it appears that the Spanish had quite an appetite for beeswax and found the native wax to be unsuitable, since it is very gummy. At some point they began to bring hives from Spain. These bees were called Spanish bees and their wax was called Spanish Wax (Cera de Castilla) to distinguish it from native wax (Cera de Campeche). By the way, in some American countries the Spanish language itself is called Castellano. Excerpt from American Bee Journal, November 1917: >The first swarms of bees were brought from Spain by settling immigrants a few years after the conquest. Some think the priests were influential in bringing them over, because beeswax was necessary in the Catholic ceremonies. The fact is that the domesticated honeybee is still called in Mexico "De Castilla" and beeswax "Cera de Castilla." > >These names qualify the difference between the domesticated honeybees and the wild bees and their products in Mexico, one variety of which is still appreciated because of the ochre-colored wax furnished by the latter, cheaply taking the place of ordinary beeswax. > >Since colonization times, we may say that beekeeping has made no progress among the common people. They still use the log gum, or a hive made of four boards nailed together. Those hives are not stood on end but are laid down horizontally, in order that they be not knocked down by domestic animals. (I saw hives just like this in 1981 in Central Chile. The beekeeper said that he was happy with them, having no interest in expensive hives with frames). Peter Borst, Ithaca NY USA ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 11:07:25 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lillian Jones Subject: Closing research labs The 2003 budget closes the USDA Honeybee research labs in Beltsville, MD, Tuscon, AZ & Baton Rouge, LA. on October 1, 2002. This leaves the Weslaco lab. This is not yet a done deal. The House Agricultural Appropriation committee meets on Feb. 28, and the Senate Ag. Committee meets on March 14. I don't need to tell you guys what this means to the future of beekeeping. We all need to email our representatives (no mail because of the anthrax scare). http://agriculture.house.gov/members.htm will get you to the site where you can contact your Agriculture committee members in the House. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 09:58:53 -0800 Reply-To: "Susan L. Nielsen" Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Susan L. Nielsen" Organization: Oregon VOS Subject: Re: Winter in Central Ohio In-Reply-To: <200202141521.g1EFLWA09774@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 14 Feb 2002, Dave Pehling wrote: > Are you SURE they are "yellow jackets" (_Vespula sp._)? Sounds more like > a winter aggregation of paper wasps (_Polistes sp._). Yellow jackets are > supposed to die out over winter except for solitary queens which > overwinter in protected places. Papers wasps overwinter in aggregations > of siblings. And, _boy_ do you want to shake out those gloves you left in the shed last fall! (What a bummer, to put on the bee suit and find the gloves full of paper wasps, who were most indignant at the intrusion of 5 fingers into their happy shelter!) Susan -- Susan Nielsen | Beehive: If you build it, snielsen@orednet.org | they will comb. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 13:47:29 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Vincent Subject: Bee Phobic Documentary MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Arcwelder Films, an award-winning film production company known for high quality science programming is producing a documentary series for National Geographic and Animal Planet on PHOBIAS OF ANIMALS. Currently we are in search of BEE phobics. The 13 part series will follow different phobics as he or she undergoes treatment. We hope to show how the phobics’ perceptions shift as they become better informed about the objects of their fears. We do not expect every phobic to be quickly or completely cured, but we do hope to show that effective therapy can change a person’s life for the better. Participants in this series will be treated with the utmost sensitivity. We are taking care to protect our phobic subjects from harm or embarrassment, and we will not place any phobic in an in vivo situation without medical supervision. Technical accuracy will be protected. For more information please contact: Vincent Lopez Associate Producer Arcwelder Films vincent@arcwelder.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 11:29:35 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Richard Yarnell Organization: Oregon VOS Subject: Re: Closing research labs In-Reply-To: <200202141707.g1EH78A13929@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII If I might suggest: call your local Congressional office. Tell them you have information relating to the Labs and an urgent argument for their being maintained. Ask the staffer how best to get a letter to them. They will suggest that you fax it or, as in the case here in Oregon, say they are receiving surface mail. You get a double: phone and mail. Email is then another shot at getting the message through. At the least, it's probable three different staffers will see the message. One of them may understand its urgency and take up the cause. During the phone conversation ask who on the committee your Congressman is close to and how best to get the message into the committee. If you hint that you're afraid the anthrax scare will keep your message out of the right hands, you may get some help there too. Ms Jones: I looked at the bill last night. It appeared that research money was increased and a search did not find mention of any of the labs. Where should I have been looking? The marketing loans were continued at $.60 . On Thu, 14 Feb 2002, Lillian Jones wrote: > The 2003 budget closes the USDA Honeybee research labs in Beltsville, MD, > Tuscon, AZ & Baton Rouge, LA. on October 1, 2002. This leaves the Weslaco > lab. > > This is not yet a done deal. The House Agricultural Appropriation > committee meets on Feb. 28, and the Senate Ag. Committee meets on March 14. --------------- Richard Yarnell, SHAMBLES WORKSHOPS | No gimmick we try, no "scientific" Beavercreek, OR. Makers of fine | fix we attempt, will save our planet Wooden Canoes, The Stack(R) urban | until we reduce the population. Let's composter, Raw Honey | leave our kids a decent place to live. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 13:35:51 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Layne Westover Subject: Re: Bee Phobic Documentary Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I was a bee phobic before I became a beekeeper, but since then I've been cured, having found from my experience that my former imagined fears were nothing close to reality. Find someone who has never opened a hive and is afraid of bees but has a desire to become a beekeeper and overcome the fear and you will probably have a good subject. Maybe offer them a free hive as part of the deal. Good luck. Layne Westover, College Station, Texas >>> vincent@ARCWELDER.COM 02/14/02 12:47PM >>> ........ Currently we are in search of BEE phobics. ........ Vincent Lopez Associate Producer Arcwelder Films vincent@arcwelder.com