From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 07:36:41 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Original-To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Delivered-To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89401489BE for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 07:28:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SCLoXB010061 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 07:28:38 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 07:28:37 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0202D" To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Message-ID: Content-Length: 398081 Lines: 9012 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 13:28:55 +0100 Reply-To: olda.vancata@quicknet.se Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Olda Vancata Subject: Re: Natural comb cell size In-Reply-To: <200202220305.g1M2j7mU014150@listserv.albany.edu> Dee Lusby wrote > Who mesured the speed of the flight? Can you present ANY > numbers? Who did the "aerodynamic" study? Can you provide > some density numbers? > Reply: > This arguments are basic knowledge written since the 1920 & 1930s > that anyone interested in beekeeping can easily find in published > articles in "Bee World". Speed of bees and flight and density of > body is nothing new, or at least I thought it wasn't. Are you new > to beekeeping? I'm still missing some numbers as example. A try to questioning one's experience is wrong way getting of the hook! \vov ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 12:49:16 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Giuseppe Caboni Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?R=3A=20Genetic=20Diversity=20in=20a=20Varroa=20Population=20dall=27italia?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit salve a tutti mi chiamo caboni giuseppe ò 32 anni e e sono un apicoltore professionista italiano (seguo +di 1400 alveari e 600 nuclei di fecondazione),la mia azienda e situata a 20 km da cagliari in sardegna(se c'è qualche pilota tra voi e nei pressi della base militare nato di decimomannu)seguo il sito di allen da tempo e anche i vostri discorsi che sono oltreche interessanti anche di alto livello qualitativo,e è bello vedere anche ricercatori che partecipano alla lista.sono a vostra disposizione per qualsiasi vostra curiosità sull apicoltura italiana e su come affrontiamo i vari problemi,che come o visto sono comuni(varroa,peste americana"afb",virosi,acariosi e selezione sul'comportamento igenico,ecc.ecc.).anche se non ho molto tempo a disposizione cerchero di rispondere e se posso anche fare domande. vorrei sapere se e possibile scrivere in italiano o se devo tradurre prima,vi avverto che sono molto scarso in inglese,anche se questo anno vorrei fare un corso di inglese in california vi ringrazio per l'attenzione e per ora arrisentirci. per quanto riguarda ciò che a scrittotim arheit vi faccio presente che è il problema riscontrato in italia quando si e fatta della selezione sulla resistenza delle api alla varroa,il risultato e stato che si e selezionata della varroa meno distruttiva e quando le api regine "resistenti"sono state spostate in altre zone il risultato e che gli alveari sono morti come gli altri. ultimamente al convegnio degli apicoltori professionisti si e arrivati alla conclusione che forse e meglio una serie di trattamenti a basso impatto che un unico trattamento definitivo,inoltre si sta cercando di puntare su dei feromoni attrattivi per la varroa .scusate la lunghezza e spero di essere stato abbastanzo chiaro. caboni giuseppe coop.apistica mediterranea a.r.l. via parrocchia 16 san sperate (ca) c.a.p.09026 italia fax +39-70-9603431 -----Messaggio originale----- Da: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology [mailto:BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu]Per conto di Tim Arheit Inviato: giovedì 21 febbraio 2002 22.46 A: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu Oggetto: Re: Genetic Diversity in a Varroa Population __________________________________________________________________ Abbonati a Tiscali! Con Tiscali By Phone puoi anche ascoltare ed inviare email al telefono. Chiama Tiscali By Phone all' 892 800 http://byphone.tiscali.it ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 22:44:46 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Mike Tooley Subject: Re: Dissertation relating to BEE-L... In-Reply-To: <200202220304.g1M2j7mG014150@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jeez,talk about analyzing something to death!As for a small number of posters contributing the most comments,remember "10% of the beer drinkers drink 90% of the beer"(actually the same applies to honey) -Mike ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 08:19:48 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Dr. Pedro Rodriguez" Subject: Re: R: Genetic Diversity in a Varroa Population dall'italia Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Ciao Carboni. No creo que multi apicultori entender itaiani en America/Bee-L pero hay traductori del web. No problema para el no parlante del italiano. Conoce el tratamiento con FGMO en su regione? Salutos. Dr. Rodriuez -- __________________________________________________________________ Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop@Netscape! http://shopnow.netscape.com/ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 07:11:08 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Hamilton Subject: Re: Dissertation relating to BEE-L... In-Reply-To: <200202220304.g1M2j7mE014150@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Nick this is a pretty great read .. it is interesting how well Aaron and Dick are doing getting the lines of quoted material down .. BEE-L is an important information source we need to protect Thanks for posting this >You can find the dissertation on line at: >http://www.beekeeping.co.nz/dissertation ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 08:49:18 -0500 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Genetic Diversity in a Varroa Population dall'italia MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Non preoccuparsi per il linguaggio, alcuni di noi parlano italiano un piccolo. Coloro che non inscatola l' uso il traduttore http://babelfish.altavista.com. Per quanto riguarda il vostro problema di Varroa, posso dire soltanto che la maggior parte stanno usando il xmiticidesx come Apistan ed e chiaro che la resistenza ha risultato. I trattamenti alternativi possono rivelarsi essere superiori, ma molti beekeepers osservano queste alternative come indimostrate. Soltanto il tempo e piu esperimenti dimostreranno chi e di destra. jim ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 14:51:01 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Mats Andersson Subject: Re: Natural comb cell size In-Reply-To: <200202220305.g1M2cXmw014057@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dee wrote: "This arguments are basic knowledge written since the 1920 & 1930s that anyone interested in beekeeping can easily find in published articles in "Bee World". Speed of bees and flight and density of body is nothing new, or at least I thought it wasn't. Are you new to beekeeping?" Dee, with all respect, i don't necessarily agree with the tone in Olda's question (and i know he's a knowledgeable beekeeper) or in your reply, but the fact that something was written eighty years ago doesn't necessarily make it true or a basic fact. Smoking tobacco was considered harmless in the 1920's, for instance. If one could manipulate a bee so that it builds 1 mm cells and has the density and flies at the speed of an M16 bullet, how much honey would it collect and would it be completely varroa free? /Mats Andersson, Stockholm Sweden ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 06:58:04 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: R: Genetic Diversity in a Varroa Population dall'italia MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit BEE-L is an international list and, although it's primary language is English, posts in other languages are welcome. In cases where non-English character sets are used, though, messages may be illegible to the majority of members, so we will cross that bridge when we come to it. For those members who are able to translate the non-English posts, when responding please quote an English translation of the previous message in along with your response for the benefit of the non-multilingual members. allen ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 11:26:20 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: rtaylor421 Subject: Midnight Queens MIME-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Does anyone know where a midnight queen might obtained. We have a = lowcountry beekeepers looking for that type queen. Thanks Ron ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 06:38:59 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Up-sizing? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I was cleaning up this morning and found what I found to be a most interesting post from BioBee on my desktop (where I have kept it for reference). I will quote it at the bottom of this post and I'll be very interested in your comments Peter, since you likely have good access to source documents: Here is a little of our previous discussion on this subject for context: > > >* The EHB natural range reportedly went as low as 4.9 mm, although 4.9 > > > was at the extreme low end of the range observed... > > I think they are important. Crane gives the range of European honey > > bees as 5.1 to 5.5 and the median at 5.3... > I went through a lot of stuff on BioBee BiologicalBeekeeping@yahoogroups.com > and came away less convinced of the range given above and more > willing to give some credence to the numbers I gave. --- Begin BioBee Post Quote --- To: BiologicalBeekeeping@yahoogroups.com From: Erik Osterlund Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 23:57:37 +0100 Subject: [BioBee] Re: Good News, Bad news Hi Chris Good you brought up Cowan. He is very important for history here. I would say one of the most important documents we have, if not the most important. Funny thing about year for first edition. Looked in the book when visiting Dadants in Hamilton in November lately. First edition 1890, second 1904. Pages 179 to 182 are of special interest concerning cell sizes. 2.11 inches for 10 cells linear, makes about 5.36 mm per cell at the most. 1.86 as the smallest makes 4.73 mm per cell. So your figures are good here for converting square inch figure then. (T)he interesting thing with this book is that Cowan seems to be the only one in history that far back that made such a big study on different bees, says himself, Amm from England, Carniolans from Switzerland, Italians from Italy, Canadian and American bees and the range from all these measurings the above. He measured on three different spots on each comb measured and in all three directions over the parallel sides of the cells and at least 10 cells in a row. On several frames from each colony measured. Now the important facts that he mentioned but that has been ignored through history afterwards almost totally for that the natural cell size varies quite a lot in one and the same colony and even on the same frame. And totally for the fact that cell size always was smallest in the centre of the nest where the brood is. Also ignored is that the cell size of the first foundation made was an AVERAGE cell size. That was what he also mentioned in an Bee World article in the 30th. That first cell size is the famous so called 900 foundation. Which many today say is the same as 5.05-5.1 mm per cell. Now if this is correct it means that a big part of the brood always was born in cell with cell sizes LESS then that size. So the enlarging of the BROOD cell size began already with the first foundation coming into use. Remarkable to say the least. And all discussion later on is always about which cell size is the best and correct, thus not even being aware of the range of different cell sizes normally in one and the same colony. You can randomly take a piece of comb, measure it and not being aware of what you have measured at all, for what is being normal for BROOD. So with the first foundation a big part of the workerforce just disappeared, that one born in cell sizes smaller than 5.05-5.1, which was the biggest part. Cowan mentioned two frames of Amm as example, one frame with cell sizes ranging between 4.95 and 5.34, the other between 4.90 and 5.15. I think this variation, with the concentration on brood cell sizes on the small side, is there to give a still greater varied worker force, besides outcrossing opposite to inbreeding and mating to many drones, to be able to cope with all these things that meet the bees, to survive and thrive. Erik At 16.01 -0500 01-12-27, cslade777@aol.com wrote: >I read in the 1924 edition of the British Bee-keeper's Guide Book by T.W. >Cowan first published in 1881 that honey comb has 28.87 worker cells to the >square inch. >I multiplied this by 25.4 to convert to metric (why >are we doing this in metric?) and got the answer 4.715 and a bit millimetres. --- End BioBee Quote --- allen http://www.internode.net/honeybee/diary/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 09:12:35 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Mailing Package Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Check out http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/049/metro/Honeybees_travel_ban_sours_plans _of_farmers+.shtml (Watch the word wrap) allen ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 08:40:58 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Natural comb cell size In-Reply-To: <200202211130.g1LBHHmE016146@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi to all on BEE-l Martin Hall wrote: Halve the dimensions of a bee and its weight (assuming constant density)reduces by a factor of eight, while the wing area is a quarter what it was; therefore the wing loading per unit area is halved. It's known as the 'square-cube law'. Reply: But in actuality the density of the inside of the bee's muscle structure, etc does change. In Small natural sized bees with the wings longer then then abdomen it is considerably denser then, larger artificially enlarged honeybees. This then has bearing on movement for bees thermoregulating in cold winters and/or hot summers, besides flight. For those that want to play around (I did) try pulling the head and abdomen off of the honeybee and floating the thorax in water. With bigger bees the easier it floats. With bees with wings longer then the abdomen (the smallest) for some reason the thorax sinks. Less pockets for air inside ?? Less pockets for internal acarapis mites to move in also?? Regards, Dee A. Lusby __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games http://sports.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 09:36:29 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Glue for Hive Construction MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm wondering if anyone has any experience with special types of glues for use in assembling hives. I'm aware of the normal white and yellow glues that are available in every hardware store, but am also aware that there are specialty glues out there. Some are quick setting, and some are set by heat or pressure. Others are two-part. Beyond that, I have no idea how to find the best ones. I need a glue that is quick-setting and permanent -- 50 year life -- in the kind of conditions we experience. Heat, moisture, and rough handling are normal in Beekeeping applications. allen http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/Diary/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 11:21:02 -0600 Reply-To: Tim Stalnaker Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tim Stalnaker Subject: Re: Midnight Queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Midnite Queens can be obtained from York Bee Co. in Jesup, GA. Phone # (912)427-7311. http://www.yorkbee.com 2002 price list shows : 1-3 $14.00 4-24 $13.00 25-99 $12.00 100-up $11.00 Tim Stalnaker BeeRanch@Multipro.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 09:23:29 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Thelytoky in Honey Bees, How Universal is it? In-Reply-To: <200202210152.g1L0Uiq8002885@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi to all on BEE-l Allen Dick wrote: Not sure what the ratio is in Tucson, but it is significant. Maybe Dee,Erikson or degrandi-Hofman will offer answers, since I am not comfortable speaking for any of them. They all have hands-on experience with this over some considerable timeframe and could comment better on the frequency of success. Reply: When the experiment we were working on in the late 1980s was done, I had been fooling around with the trait for a number of years with small mating cages on our industrial lot. Then when with contract with the USDA we moved 18 nucs to the Tucson Bee Lab for observation, study, and verification by them on a technical exchange of information. The colonies I picked out and put into 5 frames nucs were then tested for thelytoky and 55.6% reared worker brood from the wggs of laying workers, and 50% reared queens. But both similarities and differences were found between laying workers of our bees and those known for Cape bees. Now this was an experiment, in the field the frequency is actually much smaller even for us, as the 18 nucs I picked out then only represented approximately 2% thereabouts of our bees. Also, the only times I have seen it occurring is with the extreme hot of our summers or during our winters. I probably see it more then other beekeepers because we practice out-0f-season breeding, besides other field methodology used to sort out good winter carry-over bees from not so good. But it is a good backup system to have if one knows how to use it. Also, one other thing, I have NEVER seen it occurring with yellow queens, even in Italian mixtures here and believe that it is the black side of the Italian showing the trait. This I have stated before elsewhere, though I have no doubt in my mind, if we were in a natural area for true golden, if it occurs, it could be found and seen. Therefore, Question: Are Golden Italian a naturally occurring race or a man-made one from Italians?? Regards, Dee A. Lusby __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games http://sports.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 12:51:57 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Mailing Package Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen Dick wrote: > > Check out > > http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/049/metro/Honeybees_travel_ban_sours_plans > _of_farmers+.shtml It appears that the Post office rescinded the order and are now shipping bees to New England. Just came over the radio. Some suppliers locally gave up on the Post Office because of losses and go down to Ga and bring them up. Most of the losses are because of heat, not the reasons in the article. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 10:06:31 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Hensler Subject: Re: Hive painting - was (no subject) "Lionel Evans" wrote: > MOST and I mean MOST do not agree with me, but I prime and paint inside and > outside with the best that I can get and they last longer by far. I have > tried only painting the outside and have tried priming and painting only the > outside. No question for me. The moisture cannot penetrate from the inside as > easily and will last far longer. I live in North Alabama. Perhaps what we are dealing with here is operating under two different sets of conditions? It is understandable in a high humidity environment that untreated wood, especially if the wood has not been completely cured, will be lost to rot and/or warping sooner or later if not painted on both sides of the supers. On the flip side, in those parts of the world where the average humidity may be as little as 10-20%, rot/warping usually does not present a problem if only the outside is painted. As with so many aspects of beekeeping, different strokes for different folks, eh? :-) Skip Skip & Christy Hensler THE ROCK GARDEN Newport, WA http://www.povn.com/rock/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 13:15:05 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Up-sizing? In-Reply-To: <001d01c1bba6$494e0660$b4e5a1c6@allen> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Dear Allen, You quoted: >Looked in the book when visiting Dadants in Hamilton in November >lately. First edition 1890, second 1904. Please supply the title and I will look up the original references. I assume this is it (below), but the E. F. Phillips Beekeeping Library has 33 books by T. W. Cowan >Cowan, T. W. (Thomas William), 1840-1926. >The honey bee: its natural history, anatomy, and physiology. >London, Houlston [1890] >Location: Mann Library Special Collections Comments: I guess I am just allergic to the conjecturing that is associated with this topic. I find the modern sources to eminently credible, as having no particular axe to grind. I don't see how the theory can be proved or disproved, given the lack of interest (in proving or disproving it) on either side. I also don't think it makes any difference. My sole objection is that the small size theory is not credible nor are its proponents.. But the following statement is utterly uninformed: >I think this variation, with the concentration on brood cell sizes >on the small side, is there to give a still greater varied worker >force, besides outcrossing opposite to inbreeding and mating to many >drones, to be able to cope with all these things that meet the bees, >to survive and thrive. The first part, where he says that cell size variation *is there* to give a varied work force... this is completely speculative. Variation in cell size is mostly likely due to the fact that bees are not working with rulers and compasses, they are making cells about the size they need to be. A little larger, a little smaller, it doesn't much matter. The part about outcrossing, why is that in this sentence? He changes canoes in midstream. Inbreeding in bees is a very negative thing, leading to all sorts of problems, and the honey bee has developed a sophisticated mechanism to avoid it, but that has little to do with cell size. When looking at sources, I am concerned foremost about credibility, because anyone can say anything. I give high credibility to Spivak, and Taber, because they measured cells without having anything to prove. They just wanted to *find out*. -- Peter Borst ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 13:26:54 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: BeeFarmer Subject: Re: Glue for Hive Construction MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have been using Gorilla Glue, is really has worked well for me. Because of the cost I use it sparingly! BeeFarmer Getting Kids involved in 4H Beekeeping http://www.homestead.com/BeeKeepers/ Allen Dick said, > I'm wondering if anyone has any experience with special types of glues for > use in assembling hives. > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 13:24:04 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Forrest Zielke Subject: Re: Glue for Hive Construction MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen, try a product called Liquid Nails. It is found in most building supply houses. It comes in a tube that fits into a caulking gun. It is much faster if you apply a big glob on an old board and use a brush to apply to the ends of the hives. You can also buy it in five and ten gallon cans. It will bond wet, frozen and treated lumber. The wood will disintegrate before the joint will separate. I am sure you have seen it in stores. We use it in building houses and on hives. Forrest Zielke Ashland, MA USA bab5doll@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 10:14:26 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Luis Alaniz Gutierrez Subject: Beekeeping in Baja California Comments: To: Allen Dick In-Reply-To: <200202221639.g1MFCAvW029711@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 22 Feb 2002, Allen Dick wrote: > BEE-L is an international list and, although it's primary language is > English, posts in other languages are welcome. ____________ Thank you. Hi to All on BEE-L Alguien conoce si existe un listado de especies meliferas (bee plants) para California, o para el Sur de California? Por otro lado, estoy tratando de encontrar algo sobre la historia de la apicultura en Baja California, pero he tenido poco exito, supongo que las abejas llegaron aqui despues de que fueron traidas a California, cierto? Gracias!! Luis Alaniz ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 11:09:34 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Richard Yarnell Organization: Oregon VOS Subject: Re: Glue for Hive Construction In-Reply-To: <200202221655.g1MFCAxI029711@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I'm partial to single part plastic resin glues like "Gorilla Glue." They require a damp surface to actually set up. They foam just a bit so they will fill any voids. Once set, they are waterproof. I'm not aware that anything eats them. I use them building canoes, for example. The wood doesn't need to be wet, just damp, so you can wet the joint surfaces in bulk in advance or have a second brush in a can of water handy to quickly paint the joints one hive at a time. I use ceramic deck screws to assemble hives which pull the joints together tightly. Nails should be OK. I wouldn't rely on the glue joint alone. It doesn't take much glue and it is the nature of the verathane glues to set up in the container over time. IOW, don't buy much more than you can use in 6 months or so, and stick to a container size that you will use well within that time. "Gorilla" was, I believe, the first on the market 10 years or so ago - imported. It's still available but has competitors. While "special" once, it's widely available now. Otherwise, one of the Waterproof carpenters' glues will do fine. They are half again as expensive as plain white carpenters' glue and do require a good solid mechanical joint. They don't expand at all and can be put on dry lumber. Once open, they have a limited shelf life too, but not as short as Gorilla Glue. On Fri, 22 Feb 2002, Allen Dick wrote: > I'm wondering if anyone has any experience with special types of glues for > use in assembling hives. > > I'm aware of the normal white and yellow glues that are available in every > hardware store, but am also aware that there are specialty glues out there. > Some are quick setting, and some are set by heat or pressure. Others are > two-part. --------------- Richard Yarnell, SHAMBLES WORKSHOPS | No gimmick we try, no "scientific" Beavercreek, OR. Makers of fine | fix we attempt, will save our planet Wooden Canoes, The Stack(R) urban | until we reduce the population. Let's composter, Raw Honey | leave our kids a decent place to live. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 14:45:11 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Occam's Razor applied to Comb Size In-Reply-To: <007701c1bbcb$a88c3280$24e95ecc@hppav> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Occam's Razor applied to Comb Size Let's take the observable facts: Professional beekeepers using temperate zone bees (ligustica, carnica, etc.) use foundation somewhat larger than professional beekeepers in Africa (using scutellata, etc.). These bees will preferentially use these sizes when offered both in the same box (personal observation). There are at least two explanations: 1) that these are close to the sizes these bees make and have always made; these are the correct sizes for these bees. 2) temperate bees were once smaller and were made larger by modern beekeeping practices (despite the fact that the majority of the world's bees are not kept in modern hives, and that there has been no deliberate attempt to raise larger bees) -- and that they need to bee resized back to their original natural size and then they would accept the smaller foundation which at present they do not prefer. This theory is bolstered by references unverifiable to work done in the past (we cannot verify the size of comb one hundred years ago). Occam would favor the simpler explanation. -- Peter Borst ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 16:59:49 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: BeemanNick@AOL.COM Subject: Re: coumaphos in honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I was under the impression from what I know about Sue Bee is that they do all of thier own testing on honey. I have heard that they have thier own testing facilities at the Sioux City location (where I am from). If anything try that office. Nick Beemannick@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 14:23:30 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Donald Aitken Subject: Re: Glue for Hive Construction MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Allen: I have been making 6 5/8 supers from scrap plywood for some years now with biscuits and Titebond II. It is a yellow aliphatic resin glue which passes a waterproof test of three 4 hour immersions separated by drying and then a stress test. So far it has been bullet proof in my beekeeping equipment.It dries in about an hour and cleans up with water. It is getting harder to find in its pure form. Most of it is "extended" by adding wood flour. I have used this stuff, and it seems as good as the real thing. Best regards Donald Aitken ----- Original Message ----- From: "Allen Dick" > I'm wondering if anyone has any experience with special types of glues for > use in assembling hives. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 12:52:29 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Thelytoky in Honey Bees, Important in Up-sizing? In-Reply-To: <200202211130.g1LB7tn0016032@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi to all on BEE-l Allen Dick wrote of conversation between me and Peter: > I was referring to the connection that Dee Lusby herself made in the > exchange which follows. > >Peter wrote: > > The workers do not pass on any characteristics to their > >children, as they have none[no children]. The queen acquires no traits > >from the workers as they are not her parents. > >Dee's Reply: > >In a way they do. Workers pass on characteristics by way of > >laying workers that produce both drones or workers, of > >which if workers are produced they certainly can become > >queens. You are right. It appears that Dee is involving thelytoky in the upsizing(and downsizing?) question. Whether or not we end up agreeing with her, she certainly can put us through some heavy lifting mentally, Reply: Yes I AM involving thelytoky in the upsizing and downsizing question. Peter's prior sentence was: My main point is that European bees have not been altered by this.While it is true that bees can be made slightly larger and considerably smaller by being raised in different sized sells, I do not believe that this trait is acauired by this process. The workers do not pass on any characteristics to their children...... See above for the rest of what Peter said and I then replied to. Now also left out was my second paragraph I said: In a way they do.....(see above).....Then I said also: The queen acquires exact traits from the workers as she is an exact copy, as no queen can be raised except she be forn a worker first and then choosen by same to be changed into a queen as they (the workers) construct queen cells. So yes indeed I am involving thelytoky in the upsizing and downsizing question, because the bees themselves do change relative to sizing which includes the trait of thelytoky. Now let's get something else going which I said above. Just as we beekeepers choose and mate queens for our usage for productivity and proliferation and survivalability thinking ourselves breeders, the workers of our hives our the true breeders of the queens in the hives and the queens serve the workers by being selectees for what they need. this includes productivity, proliferation, survivalability, and acclimitizing to ones surroundings. The queen does not choose the workers, the workers choose the queen. Further by choosing the queen the the workers choose the drones in their area also!! Regards, Dee A. Lusby __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games http://sports.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 20:30:14 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Giuseppe Caboni Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?R=3A=20R=3A=20Genetic=20Diversity=20in=20a=20Varroa=20Population=20dall=27ita?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?lia?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit salve a tutti i trattamenti per il controllo della varroa che vengono utilizzati in italia sono di due tipi uno a base di prodotti naturali,cioe utilizzando un prodotto a base di timolo chiamato apivar http://www.chemicalslaif.it/ in ogni confezione ci sono 4 mezze tavolette ma ne vengono utilizzate(nel nostro clima)3 inserendole sopra i telai una ogni 7-8 giorni e cercando di mantenere una camera di evaporazione(cioè girare il coprifavo o mettendo un mezzo melario senza i telaini )questo trattamento nella nostra zona viene effetuato nei primi giorni di agosto (temperature intorno ai 30°C )cioe alla fine dell ultima fioritura importante (eucaliptus) in genere si à una caduta di varroa che varia dal 70% al 90% dopo circa 3 mesi si utilizza PER UNA VOLTA SOLTANTO dell'acido ossalico in soluzione (80 grammi di acido ossalico 400 grammi di zucchero e 1000cc di acqua,di questa soluzione si versano tra un telaio e l'altro 5 cc PER TELAIO COPERTO COMPLETAMENTE DI API il trattamento deve essere eseguito in assenza di covata e solo su alveari che abbiano almeno 4-5 telai coperti di api). l'altro metodo che si utilizza e a base di prodotti derivati dall agricoltura con principi attivi che variano dall amitraz al coumaphos al clorofeniphos anche se per questi ultimi due prodotti si presentano correlazioni su presunta resistenza della varroa.per quanto riguarda il trattamento con FGMO non viene ancora utilizzato(dall'apicoltura professionistica)anche perche fortunatamente..per ora ..non ci sono forti presenze di acariosi forse dovuti all'forte utilizzo di trattamenti chimici tanti anni fa. comunque a chi e interessato posso spedire copia delle ricerche in mio possesso o essere più preciso per le vostre esigenze datemi la vostra e mail e farò ciò che mi è possibile. ciao a tutti e buon lavoro caboni giuseppe -----Messaggio originale----- Da: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology [mailto:BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu]Per conto di Dr. Pedro Rodriguez Inviato: venerdì 22 febbraio 2002 14.20 A: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu Oggetto: Re: R: Genetic Diversity in a Varroa Population dall'italia __________________________________________________________________ Abbonati a Tiscali! Con Tiscali By Phone puoi anche ascoltare ed inviare email al telefono. Chiama Tiscali By Phone all' 892 800 http://byphone.tiscali.it ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 19:25:18 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Cushman Subject: catching up MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all Some gremlins decided I should not have any posts from BEE-L for a few days. I think I now have it sorted :-) The last mail that I had was under the subject... false premises and assumptions, from Peter Borst. I have looked at the archives and cannot see his mail so I assume it was not sent via the list. However my reply to him contains much that is relevent to my previous plea for som more detailed research. His question was... > Dave, > You never answered my question: > > What false premises and assumptions did Marla Spivak take to Costa Rica? Hi Peter and all As explained via BEE-L previously... I have no problems with Marla or her work... She is an attractive woman as well! :-) But in a more serious vein, I would comment that the following applies in equal measure to the majority of what has been published on cellsize. Averaging many cells produces a figure that is misleading, because it leads people to believe that comb is "regular". Now the bees that I have, contain many AMM genes... One of the features of AMM is the extremeness of size variation of bees and cells, within a colony or even a single comb. The only time that you see a high degree of regularity in AMM comb is when a colonly turns out to have small bees. When this occurs (only about 1 % of cases or less) the cellsize is in the 5.0 mm to 5.1 mm range. (when it does occur the effect is striking and very obvious) This is against a background where AMM is considered a "large bodied bee" (Cooper, Crane). To my mind the 5.0 - 5.1 figure aligns pretty well with history up until the late 1870s/1880s. Once foundation is invented/discovered things start to go wrong, mainly in pursuit of "bigger is better" or "longer tongues". Luckily, bees are adaptable and do adjust to these changes. But the insect has evolved over millions of years to get to what it was at say 1875. The aerodynamics of enlarged bees versus naturally sized bees favours any tendancy for the bees to return to their "historic" size, but the comb built by stocks of enlarged bees and fresh foundation supplied by the beekeeper tend to maintain the bees large size. Thus we have a push-pull mechanism that I believe causes un-nessesary stress, which in turn increases the bees susceptability to existing and more or less endemic disease organisms. I would like to see some properly regulated trials conducted to establish what size the bees are currently conditioned to, what size the bees consider as natural (just giving them free reign does not achieve this) What limits bees can be pursuaded to go to, both upwards and downwards. Armed with that information we may be able to incorporate it as additional information to our existing theory or some of the "new" information may displace some of the original theory. I can even foresee that foundation could be produced that actually incorporates the correct degree of variability for each regional bee. I for one, do not "know" the answers, and despite the protestations that existing theory is sound and complete, I do not think anyone on this planet yet understands the complexity of this subject. Best Regards & 73s... Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website... http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman ----- Original Message ----- From: Peter Borst To: Dave Cushman Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2002 10:31 AM Subject: false premises and assumptions ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 17:31:30 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Glue for Hive Construction MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Donald Aitken wrote: > I have been making 6 5/8 supers from scrap plywood for some years now with > biscuits and Titebond II. It is a yellow aliphatic resin glue which passes > a waterproof test of three 4 hour immersions separated by drying and then a > stress test. So far it has been bullet proof in my beekeeping equipment.It > dries in about an hour and cleans up with water. Second on Titebond II. Use it on all my outside painted woodwork. Bill Truesdell Bath, Me ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 17:09:14 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: Beekeeping in Baja California > >Hi to All on BEE-L > >Alguien conoce si existe un listado de especies meliferas (bee plants) >para California, o para el Sur de California? No tengo una listado, pero soy del Sur de California, y conosco casi todas las floras que las abejas les gustan. Si usted quiere hablar mas, mi e-mail esta tvaughan@charter.net >Por otro lado, estoy tratando de encontrar algo sobre la historia de la >apicultura en Baja California, pero he tenido poco exito, supongo que las >abejas llegaron aqui despues de que fueron traidas a California, cierto? Yo creo que tiene razon, pero muchos hombres creen que un poco de las abejas espanoles (Apis m iberica) viven in las montanas aqui hoy en dia. Nadie sabe. Tim Vaughan ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 17:42:31 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: How to encourage Comb Building? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Milt. I am afraid I will disappoint you, but unless there is a nectar flow on or an artificial nectar flow (1:1 sugar syrup), bees will NOT build any comb for any reason. Since you appear to be a beginner, let me explain. Bees have to eat about 8 pounds of HONEY (which means they have to eat a LOT MORE nectar or sugar syrup) to get the energy to produce and construct 1 pound of wax comb! Hence, the bees just won't build comb unless they have a need for it. Bees only have two reasons to build comb: 1) build comb for the queen to lay eggs in, and 2) build comb to store nectar, home, or pollen. Unlike you and I, bees can't plan ahead; so they won't build comb in March in anticipation of a spring nectar flow. One of the reasons that I collect any and every swarm that I hear of is a swarm is DESPERATE NEED of comb so the queen can lay eggs and so the bee can regurgitate the honey they are carrying in their honey stomachs and store it away. When you dump a swarm on 10 sheets of foundation, almost overnight, lots of comb is constructed. The great majority of beginners just don't feed a new package of bees near long enough to get foundation drawn. The proper way is to start a package in April or May and feed it CONTINUOUSLY WITHOUT STOPPING for 3-4 months, or until about Labor Day. By doing that, you might get 30-50 frames of foundation fully drawn, and you will feed maybe 50 pounds of sugar, or about $15-$18 of sugar. Then, you will have a roaring big colony really ready to make a wonderful crop of honey for you in the following spring. Pretty cheap way of doing it! Too often, many of the "old timers" either did not have the extra $15, or figured that wild bees didn't have any feed, so their bees did not get enough feed, and the bees either died or came through the winter weak, and the honey crop in the following spring was not very good. I taking the liberty of assuming that you have not read a VERY GOOD RECENTLY WRITTEN book designed for beginners and novices about beekeeping, and hence you are a beeHAVER instead of a beeKEEPER. For less than $30, buy THE BEEKEEPER'S HANDBOOK, 3rd Edition of April 1998, written by Dr. Diana Sammataro. I use this book to teach beekeeping to all my beginning adults, and they love it. I hope that I have helped you, and write to me anytime about almost any beekeeping problem. George Imirie Certified EAS MASTER BEEKEEPER Starting my 70th year of beekeeping in Maryland Author of George's PINK PAGES about Up-to-date Beekeeping Management ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 16:52:42 -0800 Reply-To: lithar@hcis.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: AL Subject: Re: Glue for Hive Construction MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen Dick wrote: > > > > I need a glue that is quick-setting and permanent -- 50 year life -- Hmmm, guess I'm not that much of an optimist. Somehow if I'm around 50yr from now and look back saying, "gee I which I'd used a better glue", I'll count my blessings and buy new boxes. As for now, and the near future, I really like Titebond II. I assume you also nail or screw the boxes together so I can't imagine a joint failure. I'm a bit curious though. Judging from your contributions to the list and your website, it is abundantly clear that you are no newcomer to beekeeping (I, on the other hand, am). So what have you been using all along? AL ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 17:50:56 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Midnight Queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit York Bee in Georgia has Midnites George Imirie ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 14:41:30 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: -) [BEE-L] Occam's Razor applied to Comb Size MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi there Peter & All, > Occam's Razor applied to Comb Size > Aristotle's cites a notion that "the more perfect a nature is the fewer means it requires for its operation." Keith Malone ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 16:19:10 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Hensler Subject: Re: How to encourage Comb Building? >For less than $30, buy THE > BEEKEEPER'S HANDBOOK, 3rd Edition of April 1998, written by Dr. Diana > Sammataro. I use this book to teach beekeeping to all my beginning adults, > and they love it. There are a couple of used ones available at http://www.abebooks.com/ in the $20.00 range. Be careful that it's the third edition and by Sammataro. Skip Skip & Christy Hensler THE ROCK GARDEN Newport, WA http://www.povn.com/rock/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 13:19:35 +1300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robt Mann Subject: bees can't plan ahead ? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Beemaster Geo opined: >Unlike you and I, bees can't plan ahead; so they won't build comb in March in >anticipation of a spring nectar flow. As he is a v experienced scientist, he would not misunderstand if I proceded straight to the scientific issue; but non-scientists unused to the simple directness of our subculture seem to think it's rude, so let me begin by saying I am v reluctant to query anything by our senior man who certainly knows vastly more than I do about bees and has contributed more than anyone to this list. Who has not noticed a hive preparing for a good, or a bad, season? Don't they plan, on various time-scales? It may well be that there's no evidence on the time-scale which Geo specifies - I'm not contradicting him; but what about a month or two? Our lack of knowledge about *how* they plan is not the point. Let us not repeat the fallacy whereby lack of any known organ of hearing in the bee led to many decades of irrational denial that the bee has a sense of hearing. We know little or nothing about how bees plan; but, in the spirit of science, I wish to open discussion on the facts, rather than what the mechanism might be (fascinating tho' that speculation may be). Who thinks that bees plan? R ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 15:49:06 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: Occam's Razor applied to Comb Size MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All, > Occam would favor the simpler explanation. > Could the comic at this URL explain why researchers have difficulty deciding whether to research cell size applied for honey bees. http://zebu.uoregon.edu/~js/glossary/occams_razor.html I am glad I am not a scientist or a paid researcher so I can be unbiased when I try a new thing. All I am concerned about is the health a welfare of my bees. Keith Malone ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 20:42:19 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Rick Green Subject: Re: bees can't plan ahead ? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bees work all spring and summer to save stores for a yet unseen winter. That is planning. If you say they are only acting instinctively, try to prove that assertion. Unless we can think like a bee any assertion about their intent is idle thinking. We see them save honey for next winter and then form a human conclusion about whether or not this is an example of planning. All is a blind alley. Contact me at: Rick Green 8 Hickory Grove Lane Ballston Lake, NY 12019 (518) 384-2539 Gothoney@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 22:41:05 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: catching up MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Dave and All, Dave wrote: I for one, do not "know" the answers, and despite the protestations that = existing theory is sound and complete, I do not think anyone on this = planet yet understands the complexity of this subject. Beekeepers are full of theories.=20 I do not see this discussion as complex. Many of the facts needed to = come to a logical conclusion are missing.=20 The biggest fact missing is cell size from a hundred years ago. When I = looked into cell size the oldest foundation I found which could be = looked at and measured was the Dadant *900* foundation. Most would put = the *900* foundation a tad larger than 5.0mm but smaller than 5.1mm. = About as exact as I could get.=20 Proper testing with controls is missing .with the 4.9mm theory so far = .=20 People are asking us to accept their theories at face value. Might work = at a bee meeting but will not work on Bee-L.=20 Dr. Jaycox found cell size hard to study. Dr. Jaycox came to the = conclusion worker cells could be found 17% bigger and smaller than = normal. Sadly I have NEVER been able to find in print the size Dr. = Jaycox considered normal. I picked up another old Jaycox book last = month but have not had time to read yet. Maybe I will finally find out = what size Dr. jaycox considered the *natural comb cell size*. =20 On most frames one beekeeper can take a measurement and say the = section he has measured is say 5.1mm. Another can pick another location = on the same frame and come up with 5.2mm. Take another measurement in = another location you will find 5.3mm and so on. Interesting facts: Perfectly normal workers have emerged from fertilized eggs laid in drone = cells.=20 I have seen drones squeeze out of unfertilized eggs laid in worker = cells. Barry Seargent of South Africa reports varroa reproduces in 4.9mm cell = size. What is *natural comb cell size* ? Subject of all these small cell = size posts. One size in my opinion would not be correct. A range of size would be correct in my opinion but what range? Sincerely, Bob Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 09:11:23 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Mike Rowbottom Subject: Re: Occam's Razor applied to Comb Size In-Reply-To: <200202222210.g1MFCANa029711@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 14:45 22/02/2002 -0500, you wrote: >Occam's Razor applied to Comb Size > > >Occam would favor the simpler explanation. > > > >-- >Peter Borst Some care is needed with the application of Occam's razor. I believe that it is best used as a guide in the approach to a new issue. That is, start with the simplest explanation and only make it more complicated if you then find that you have to. Sometimes the more complicated explanation is the right one. Regards Mike Rowbottom Harrogate North Yorkshire UK ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 04:24:57 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: Golden Italians MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <> According to LE Snelgrove, Queen Rearing, pub. Miss I Snelgrove, 1946, p. 114: 'By persistent selection for colour, queens have been produced both in America and England showing yellow bands on five of the six abdominal rings, the sixth (terminal) one being black. Such queens and their progeny have been boosted as 'Golden Italians' but they have not shown any particular merit apart from their beauty.' Pity they couldn't have put all the effort into selecting for something more useful. Regards, Robert Brenchley RSBrenchley@aol.com Birmingham, UK. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 02:44:27 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Trouble Receiving BEE-L? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Some gremlins decided I should not have any posts from BEE-L for a few days. I don't know if the following was your problem, but it reminds me: Something BEE-L people should consider when installing SPAM and p*rn filters or using an ISP that has them in place -- or using parental guidance/control software, including the built-in features in MSIE -- is this: there are many words used regularly on BEE-L that will cause sudden disappearance of BEE-L, or BEE-L content, without any notice to you. As an example of the reason for that, consider the discussion of artificial inse*ination and all the details and how que*ns become fertile, and lots of our other favourite topics. They have to do with s*x, and the n*ts and bolts of the how it is done, so to speak. To make things even worse, some of our articles discuss r*ce and could be intercepted by software looking for r*cism. MS Outlook has particularly brain-dead filters, so, if you install new software, set up your computer for kids, or change ISPs -- or just lose BEE-L for no obvious reason -- check for a filter somewhere in the delivery system. Moreover, sometimes *all* material entire internet domains gets blocked by some ISPs without any notice to users. This can happen due to some activity on a server that has nothing to do with many innocent users of that system. I've seen this happen a number of times, so if you suddenly cannot get email from some source or another, check your own filters, then call your ISP about it. Just so you know... allen http://www.internode.net/honeybee/diary/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 04:50:17 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: Up-sizing? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter borst writes: I guess I am just allergic to the conjecturing that is associated with this topic. I find the modern sources to eminently credible, as having no particular axe to grind. I don't see how the theory can be proved or disproved, given the lack of interest (in proving or disproving it) on either side. I also don't think it makes any difference. My sole objection is that the small size theory is not credible nor are its proponents.. (snip) When looking at sources, I am concerned foremost about credibility, because anyone can say anything. I give high credibility to Spivak, and Taber, because they measured cells without having anything to prove. They just wanted to *find out*. -- Peter Borst >> I wonder what all those old beekeepers who give 'five cells to the inch' were trying to prove? I don't like speculation any more than you do, but neither will I restrict 'credibility' to those with strings of letters after their names. I'd very much like to run tests with control hives as well as small cell, but with only a few hives at present the opportunity isn't going to be there for a while; maybe someone else will do it first. When I find, for instance, that the 1917 edition of the 'ABC & XYZ', p. 402, says: 'By far the larger portion of the cells in a hive will be found to measure about five to the inch [about 5.1mm]. these are called worker cells... This, of course, refers to natural comb built by the bees without any comb foundation being supplied to them. Comb foundation is generally made with cells of such size that the worker comb built upon it contains about 27 cells to the inch [just under 5.2mm].' I want to know why the foundation being made then was slightly larger than natural comb, why it is significantly larger now, why modern research is showing cells in natural comb to be significantly larger than the old measurements, and what effect it has all had on the bees. The answers must be out there somewhere. Regards, Robert Brenchley RSBrenchley@aol.com Birmingham, UK. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 08:26:06 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Michael Housel Subject: Re: Golden Italians MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In the use without chemicals the "Red haired golden Italians" made the strongest and most honey productive hives. These queens don't set for the queen supersedure that the strips and black queens do. If you use the RHGI queens I would requeen with the same in 6 to 9 months. If you are starting nucs and increaseing your hives use the others. Michael Housel ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 08:09:54 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Dr. Pedro Rodriguez" Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 21 Feb 2002 to 22 Feb 2002 (#2002-53) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Dear Bee-L's subscribers. I find Bee-L fascinating and worth while participating in the many discussions that take place in it. However, I find that my partici- pation is time consuming (my most precious asset)and that it clutters my hard disk. I am about to request that I be removed from the list due to the two reasons explained above. I do wish to communicate to those who may wish to continue in touch with me to please do so via e-mail by writing to DronebeeR@netscape.net Happy beekeeping to all of you. Sincerely. Dr. Rodriguez -- __________________________________________________________________ Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop@Netscape! http://shopnow.netscape.com/ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 23:19:38 +1300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robt Mann Subject: Re: Occam's Razor Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Some care is needed with the application of Occam's razor. >I believe that it is best used as a guide in the approach to a new >issue. That is, start with the simplest explanation and only make it more >complicated if you then find that you have to. >Sometimes the more complicated explanation is the right one. Exactly. The principle is often stated as "refrain from invoking unnecessary causes". But when they *are* logically indicated, they should be invoked rather than evaded. May I connect with the current furore about evolution in Ohio science curricula? Here's the 'hard core' of what I've sent main Cleveland newspapers about this confusion. The point is that in order to understand biology you do have to invoke not 2 but 4 types of causes. Those who refuse to do so tend to resent & evade, rather than discuss. And they tend to assume a colony of bees is no more than biochemical mechanisms. The following is about as briefly as these matters can be set forth. It is helpful to begin by making clear what the term 'evolution' means: the appearance of new life-forms - new species and bigger categories genus, family, order, class, phylum, kingdom - over time. It is a scientific fact that evolution has occurred. But this fact has no necessary implications for theology. The idea that no new species have been created since the 6th day belongs in a theological approach called deism, which went defunct a century ago and needs no reviving. Theism has superseded deism. Having accepted the overwhelming body of evidence that evolution has in fact occurred, science wishes to explain it - to describe how it happened, in terms of scientific laws. Some progress has been made. But science cannot illuminate the 'why' question. It is perfectly possible to teach evolution as simple narrow science, avoiding questions of final cause. However, that is not the usual approach of the neo-Darwinists, who typically assert that blind chance can account for biology. Their main PR agents - R Dawkins, L Wolpert, S Weinberg - go out of their way to attack the common belief that the incomparable coordinated complexity of biology bears the mark of intelligent design. They are aggressive atheists who wish to abolish the theological 'why' questions. They insert theological argument - however crude - into the teaching of evolution. The proliferation of increasingly complex life-forms over time requires explanation - ascription of causes - beyond what has become standard evolution theory viz. random mutation, natural selection, genetics, and population dynamics - the four lines of scientific thinking which have been synthesised into neo-Darwinism. For this explanation, more causes than just materials & chemical processes are required, as was clarified in 1972 by one of my country's few famous biologists, Professor John E Morton. Using science as Aristotle of course could not, Morton clarified the 4 categories of cause originally defined by Aristotle, in his 1972 'claret cameo', here paraphrased: What are the causes of my bottle of claret? The material cause includes the grape juice and the yeast, materials transformed by the efficient cause into this peculiar substance claret. The efficient cause, as in Aristotle's prototypical example 'the making of a statue', is the action of the yeast on the grape sugars and some minor components, a process resulting in aqueous ethanol and some minor chemicals characteristic of claret. But my bottle of claret has also a final cause: a person (named Babich) exerted his will to organise suitable vessels & conditions for the substances which are the material cause, and planned a sequence of operations for the purpose of making claret by maximising the likelihood that the efficient cause for claret would operate i.e. the particular biochemical action of the yeast on the grape juice leading to claret. Aristotle's formal cause is the 'claret idea' in Babich's mind. If a bottle of claret requires a final cause, how can it be believed that a frog doesn't? What then can be said to explain - ascribe the causes of - an organism? The blueprints encoded in DNA are material causes, and operate as parts of efficient causes through the several types of RNA and the many enzymes essential for synthesis of proteins & other biochemicals; but DNA is certainly not a final cause. As Professor Morton has recently put it, DNA is not the kind of thing that can cause other things as if paints could leap from tubes to create a Turner, or vibrations & percussions form themselves into a work of Mozart. A person implementing a plan - a final cause, like Aristotle's prototypical 'the man who resolves' - is the only way such things can come to be. No amount of explanation in the categories of material & efficient causes can suffice to explain life. Dawkins & co grandly neglect half of the 4 causes. Megatime is no substitute for purpose in the creation of coordinated working ecological order. It is notable that Dawkins always describes evolution in language suffused with purpose, though he then asserts it has no purpose nor final cause. If students are to be taught as fully & efficiently as possible, they will need all these concepts clarified. Mere assertion of materialism (also called 'naturalism') will not suffice. Our care, or neglect, of the biosphere will depend on what we believe about how and why it came to be. If we bring up children to believe vaguely that it came from nothing more important than the laws of physics & chemistry, should we be surprised if they then fail to conserve the biosphere? Religious scientists, such as Prof. Morton, and the whole church of Rome, have had no trouble believing that evolution has occurred and is indeed God's actual method of creating new species. The idea that evolution and creation are alternatives - mutually exclusive - is a mischievous confusion. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 09:38:50 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Up-sizing? In-Reply-To: <55.22f753ea.29a8bfd9@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" On the same page as Robert quotes: >Several times it has been suggested that we enlarge the race of >honey-bees by giving them larger cells; and some circumstances seem >to indicate that something may be done in this direction, although I >have little hope of any permanent enlargement in size, unless we >combine with it the idea of selecting the largest bees to propagate >from. By making cells smaller than ordinarily, we can get small bees >with very little trouble; and I have seen a whole nucleus of bees so >small as to be really laughable, just because the comb they were >hatched from was set an an angle so that one side was concave and >the other convex. The small bees came from the concave side. Their >light, active movements as they sported in front of the hive, made >them a pretty and amusing sight for those fond of curiosities. >Workers reared in drone cells are, if I am correct, sometimes extra >large in size; but as to whether we can make them permanently larger >by such a course, I am inclined to doubt. > >A. I. Root, 1890 Robert and all: I am afraid that the whole measurement thing is a dead end, because we cannot measure combs from the 1880s ourselves. Therefore, we do not know if the combs were different or the method of measuring was slack. When someone says 5 cells to the inch, what is the level of accuracy? Were it 4.9 or 5.1 cells to the inch, would they round it to 5? When someone writes 5.01 mm, they are signalling a high level of accuracy, but Root refers to 5 to the inch, and 3 1/2 to the inch, indicating a rather broad brush -- not very subtle differences. -- Peter Borst ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 08:02:38 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Mailing Package Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here is the confirmation that the rule was recinded. http://www.portland.com/news/state/020223bees.shtml Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 14:56:50 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Mark Otts Subject: Re: Up-sizing? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed >I guess I am just allergic to the conjecturing that is associated >with this topic. I find the modern sources to eminently credible, as >having no particular axe to grind. whether they can admit it or not, everyone has their own particular ax to grind, even the modern sources. no one is totally impartial so this should not be used as a mark of credibility over someone else. conjecturing should be challanged, but keep in mind that some conjecturing could very well be true. >I don't see how the theory can be >proved or disproved, given the lack of interest (in proving or >disproving it) on either side. I also don't think it makes any >difference. maybe by following the Nike slogan, "just do it." >My sole objection is that the small size theory is not credible nor >are its proponents. why does it always have degrade to a level where we resort to character name calling? the definition of credible is 1. Capable of being believed; plausible. you acknowledge that it is theory we are discussing. where do you get the assurance that your position is the right one if it is still unproven? both sides are credible and should be given equal standing until theory becomes fact. >The first part, where he says that cell size variation *is there* to >give a varied work force... this is completely speculative. Variation >in cell size is mostly likely due to the fact that bees are not >working with rulers and compasses, they are making cells about the >size they need to be. A little larger, a little smaller, it doesn't >much matter. so if he wrote cell size variation gives a varied work force, leaving out *is there*, what difference does it make? are you not being just as speculative by saying it doesn't much matter? how do you know it doesn't matter? mark _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 09:48:48 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: bees can't plan ahead ? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rick Green wrote: > > Bees work all spring and summer to save stores for a yet unseen winter. That > is planning. If you say they are only acting instinctively, try to prove that > assertion. Unless we can think like a bee any assertion about their intent is > idle thinking. We see them save honey for next winter and then form a human > conclusion about whether or not this is an example of planning. All is a > blind alley. Based on that reasoning, my maple tree plans for winter by shedding its leaves in the fall. And bears plan for winter by gaining weight (so do I). I do not have to think like them to observe and know that they are conditioned (instinct) to do so. Any that do not are weeded out with little mercy by nature. Same with bees. Those that build up winter stores survive. Those who do not do not. No planning required. If bees plan for winter then why do some races of bees plan ahead by not absconding and others, like AHB, go into the cold with small colonies and few stores? Obviously the northern bee is smarter or uses PERT/CPM (which dates me). As far as proving the assertion that they are acting instinctively - since different races act differently would lead more to instinct than intelligent planning. A classic example of bees not thinking is in the layout of the brood nest. For a long time it was thought that they had the brood in the center, then pollen and then honey because it was planned that way. However, when a computer simulation was run, it came out with the same brood/pollen/honey pattern if the bees randomly put each into any cell on the comb. In time, it develops that way, not because the bees plan it. There is nothing wrong with instinct. It has kept all of us alive for a long time. But to deny it and substitute intelligence is poor science and can lead to a host of incorrect assumptions. Bill Truesdell Bath, Me ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 18:54:18 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Keith Malone Subject: Occam's Razor applied to Comb Size MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All, Somebody wrote me off list and had this to write; > Actually, Erickson of the USDA did work on this more than ten years > ago ("On The Size of Cells" February, 1990 - Bee Culture). I wrote to > him and asked him why it was dropped. He said the idea had merit, but > that breeding for resistance had more promise, and they would focus > on that. Pretty simple explanation, really. This is what I originaly wrote; Could the comic at this URL explain why researchers have difficulty deciding whether to research cell size applied for honey bees. http://zebu.uoregon.edu/~js/glossary/occams_razor.html My reply; If it had merit it should have been looked at more closely. Breeding for resistance just may be more affective if in combination with cell size. Of course lets not forget that nutrition also plays a big part in the health of the bee and how well they can organize to fight off some problems. By the way breeding is not all that simple, lots of beekeepers buy queens from suppliers for many reason and some of those reasons may be that they do not want to bother with queen rearing, amongst other reason of course. If breeding queens were easy everybody would be doing it. If a researcher said it has merit, then I say great, It should be given a good go for the honey. Keith Malone Chugiak, Alaska USA starrier@yahoo.com http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney Check out current weather in my area and 5 day forecast; http://www.wx.com/myweather.cfm?ZIP=99654 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 16:10:40 +0100 Reply-To: Ahlert Schmidt Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ahlert Schmidt Subject: Natural comb cell size follow up MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hallo all! I would like to comment again on the cell size, even though we had seen a lot of discussion on that topic on Bee-L. It is evident, that the cell cize of the european honeybee has an average cell cize of about 5.33 mm. However, I would point out that these data are collected from bees held in the norhtern part of europe which would not have been shipped to the united states as the first choice (see below). The early bees which have been shipped to the US are most certainly bees from Spain - Portugal - wich are possibly inbread with bees from northern Africa (beeing africanized as we could read recently on this Bee-L list). I do question whether the early bees in the US are thus naturally bees with a cell size of about 4.9 mm? Could someone from southern Spain comment on that idea? Are cell measurements from bees of southern Spain available? At least this would give some explanation to the different opinions on original cell size of honey bees in the US. If so, the topic of enlargement would only be the change from a more africanized bee to not africanized european bees adapating to the needs of the bee race held currently. I would like to make a second comment as a biologist on the topic of Larmakian thinking in bee biology using the terms regressin and enlangement. Forcing bees to use small cell size for raising brood will not alter the genetic information of the bees and there is no possibilty to alter the genetic code due to enlargement or regression. If so we would need to change the known rules of genetics. Even Thylokety will not alter the genetic information; this can only be achieved by mating and the following segregation of genes. So there should be a different mechanism involved in the 4.9 mm story not discussed so far. Therefore I would like to suggest the following possibility: If I breed bees in an area where a) bees are available with a cell size preference of about 4.9 mm and b) bees with a preferred cell size of 5.3 mm, I can select bees by breeding which do best on 4.9 mm or 5.3 mm. If I put selection pressure into the 4.9 mm preference I shurly will select the bee surviving better on this cell size due to their normal smaller cell size type. Thus I do suggest that the the selection presseure applied by some breeders for 4.9 mm will certainly select for the africanized beetype. This would - however - not say anything against such a bee as long as this bee can help a beekeeper to survive due to benefits this bee might have or has as shown by the success using such methods. Modern genetic thechniques are certainly capable to show such relationschips if there is a will to know!!! So I do suggest here to use genetic methods to clear this possibility. With best regards Ahlert Schmidt ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 08:08:13 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Fw: Chinese honey alert MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Teri Bachus" Newsgroups: sci.agriculture.beekeeping Sent: Saturday, February 23, 2002 7:29 AM Subject: Chinese honey alert > "Tests carried out by the Food Standards Agency on Chinese and blended honey > on sale in the UK have revealed the presence of a chloramphenicol, an > antibiotic..." > see this link for details (watch the wrap): > http://iccoventry.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0100localnews/page.cfm?objectid=1 > 1641210&method=full&siteid=50003 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 09:15:50 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Up-sizing? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > I am afraid that the whole measurement thing is a dead end, because > we cannot measure combs from the 1880s ourselves. Therefore, we do > not know if the combs were different or the method of measuring was > slack. > > When someone says 5 cells to the inch, what is the level of accuracy? > Were it 4.9 or 5.1 cells to the inch, would they round it to 5? When > someone writes 5.01 mm, they are signalling a high level of accuracy, > but Root refers to 5 to the inch, and 3 1/2 to the inch, indicating a > rather broad brush -- not very subtle differences. It seems to me that quite a few of those writers then carry on to discuss how close to 5 per inch they are seeing, and the range of size. It also seems that the path is the same whenever someone science-trained, well-read, and critically-minded (a Good Thing) comes across this whole topic. I can see here that Peter's examination of this topic is following mine almost exactly. His comments mirror mine almost exactly. My journey from total sceptic to curious onlooker is well documented on BioBee http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BiologicalBeekeeping/ and here on BEE-L. http://www.internode.net/honeybee/BEE-L/ I will be very interested to see where Peter winds up, since he has more experience and much better access to resources, second opinions, periodicals, books, and documents than I ever have -- or will. I suspect that his critical faculties are more acute and persistent than mine. I'm very glad to see Peter wrestling with this topic using an honest approach, research, and reason. The whole matter definitely deserves such close and careful examination, and the historical claims need to be proven or disproved, although I still consider them to be a red herring, distracting us from examining the mechanisms behind the Lusby success. (BTW, Kim tells me that May Bee Culture will include an illustrated article of a January visit to Lusbys' operation by two commercial beekeepers). I hope we all understand that people travelling on the same highway share the same views and recognise the same roadsigns and landmarks. Someone travelling the same country, with the same destination, using a back road only a few miles away and parallel may have a completely different account of the scenery -- and some real down-to-earth experience along the way. Education is a highway and gets us to where we want to start work in a hurry compared to travelling cross-country. Nonetheless, those of us who took the highway ignore at our peril the observations of those who arrived by a different route. In a world where many cultures and beliefs are in collision, language, grammar, jargon, and job description must be considered a less reliable criterion of a speaker/writer's credibility than the ultimate consistency of his or her observations. This consistency is not always immediately apparent, and careful examination is necessary to discover it, especially if there are many strange and unfamiliar ideas involved. (It seems that, to many, Einstein was initially, at least, a lowly patent clerk with strange and heretical ideas. (see postscript)). The results of such examinations often depend as much on the patience & insight of the examiner as on the examined. We must sometimes dig for meaning when strange words and phrases are used in place of the handy shortcuts to understand that we use daily with our friends and colleagues. The truth is out there. allen http://www.internode.net/honeybee/diary/ >From http://www.time.com/time/time100/scientist/profile/einstein.html The light came on in 1905. Pushed to the fringe of physics by his prickly pacifism and an academic career that seemed designed to annoy his professors, the future emblem of genius was, at the time -- the very words have become an Algeresque cliché -- just a Swiss patent clerk. Preternaturally confident and suitably unkempt, the 26-year-old Einstein sent three papers, papers scrawled in his spare time, to the premier journal, "Annalen der Physik," to be published "if there is room." ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 08:13:22 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Adrian Wenner Subject: Glue for Hive Construction Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I put together a picnic table with Gorilla glue, using drywall screws to provide the necessary pressure (put in with a power drill). After three years the table is as firm as ever! Adrian Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home phone) 967 Garcia Road (805) 893-8062 (UCSB FAX) Santa Barbara, CA 93106 [http://www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/index.htm] ***************************************************** * * "We not only believe what we see: * to some extent we see what we believe." * * Richard Gregory (1970) * ***************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 11:08:29 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: stimey Subject: size MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Alot of interesting discussion going on. I have removed what I believe = were feral bees from buildings and what I find is the bees build what = suits them with the space at hand. As far as cell size I see little if = any differance in size. Maybe they are programed to larger size cells? = In which case sombodies swarm that got away? But the point I want to = make is cell size is relitive to bee size and bee size is relitive to = location .You see it in nature everywhere you go.Example : all things = being equal Deer from Canada will and need to be larger to survive than = say deer from Florida. There will be other slight differances as well = like Ear size. I've seen purebred labrador retrievers in Texas that look = diffrent than the ones in NY. Can anyone say cell size wasn't increased = as an attempt to induce larger bees that would over winter better in = northern regions. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 11:09:39 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Rick Green Subject: Re: bees can't plan ahead ? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Planning is a human cogitative process. To assert that bees plan or do not plan and are simply instinctual animals are both examples of idle thinking. Unless you can think like a bee all discussions about planning on the part of a honeybee is anthropomorphic. If anyone gains comfort or practical value from believing bees are instinctual or in fact plan their behavior then good for them but it takes us no closer to understanding the mental processes of the bees. Contact me at: Rick Green 8 Hickory Grove Lane Ballston Lake, NY 12019 (518) 384-2539 Gothoney@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 18:54:41 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Giuseppe Caboni Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?resistenza=20al=20coumaphos?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit hello spero che questa ricerca sia utile anche a voi. giuseppe caboni Adult female Varroa jacobsoni mites were sampled in the province of Reggio Emilia (Northern Italy), where field trials had shown a decreased efficacy of Perizin in some apiaries, and assayed for resistance to coumaphos by using a laboratory test. In some samples, the tolerance at 20 ppm coumaphos was significantly larger than that observed in a reference susceptible population; 1.5% mites of the mites assayed at 50 ppm survived (expected survival in a susceptible population ~ 0.1%), but all the 430 mites assayed at 100-500 ppm died. These data show an increase in the tolerance to coumaphos at least in some apiaries, but do not make it possible to conclude that a small proportion of highly resistant mites is present. Giorgio Della Vedova*,Marco Lodesani**,Norberto Milani* la tesi completa la potete trovare a :http://www.apicolturaonline.it/milani.htm buon lavoro a tutti __________________________________________________________________ Abbonati a Tiscali! Con Tiscali By Phone puoi anche ascoltare ed inviare email al telefono. Chiama Tiscali By Phone all' 892 800 http://byphone.tiscali.it ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 18:44:09 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Giuseppe Caboni Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?R=3A=20Chinese=20honey=20alert?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit hello hallen ti invio un articolo sul problema dell miele cinese scritto in italia, salute a tutti caboni giuseppe Missione del Comitato veterinario che rileva serie carenze nei sistemi di controllo. Pechino protesta: "Decisione unilaterale" Ue blocca l?import di miele e crostacei cinesi BRUXELLES - Porte chiuse in Europa per alcuni prodotti di origine animale provenienti dalla Cina. Il Comitato veterinario permanente europeo (Cvp) ha confermato una proposta dell'esecutivo Ue che vieta l'ingresso di una serie di prodotti cinesi, fra i quali miele, carne di coniglio, gamberetti e altri crostacei. La decisione è stata presa a seguito di una recente missione in Cina degli esperti del Cvp, che hanno messo sotto accusa i sistemi veterinari di controllo del paese dopo aver individuato "serie carenze", secondo quanto precisato da un comunicato della Commissione. Le ispezioni hanno fra l'altro rivelato l'impiego di prodotti proibiti nell'Ue per la salute animale. Nei giorni scorsi, infatti, la Commissione aveva chiesto chiarimenti ai governi tedesco e olandese circa l'importazione in Germania, dall'Olanda, di gamberetti d'origine asiatica probabilmente trattati con cloramfenicolo, antibiotico vietato nell'Ue. La sospensione delle importazioni dei prodotti cinesi entrerà in vigore nei prossimi giorni. Per i prodotti che sono in viaggio dalla Cina, i controlli saranno a carico dalle autorità competenti dei paesi Ue. La nota diffusa a Bruxelles precisa, d'altra parte, che la Commissione è pronta a lavorare assieme alle autorità cinesi per predisporre le misure necessarie che consentano di riprendere la vendita in Europa dei prodotti provenienti dal paese asiatico. Il valore delle importazioni dei prodotti colpiti dall'embargo è stato nel 2000 di quasi 328 milioni di euro. Pechino ha espresso "seria preoccupazione" per la decisione dell'Ue: lo riferisce il quotidiano in lingua inglese "China daily". "L'Ue ha preso una decisione unilaterale soltanto sulla base di una ricerca, senza sollecitare un parere da parte della Cina. Questo è ingiusto e irragionevole", ha detto ieri Gao Yan, il portavoce del Ministero del commercio estero cinese il quale ha precisato che il rapporto ha esagerato la gravità dei problemi. Gao ha aggiunto che la Cina reagirà in conformità con le regole dell'Wto. Da il Piccolo Giornale di Trieste mercoledì 30 gennaio 2002. __________________________________________________________________ Abbonati a Tiscali! Con Tiscali By Phone puoi anche ascoltare ed inviare email al telefono. Chiama Tiscali By Phone all' 892 800 http://byphone.tiscali.it ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 09:36:28 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Cal French Subject: Coumaphos Testing In-Reply-To: <200202230500.g1N4vFmC023935@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I have discovered that ADPEN lab in Jacksonville, Florida, will test honey or wax for coumaphos, using the EPA/FDA enforcement method, for $320. They have a web site. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 08:55:38 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Roy Nettlebeck Subject: Re: Glue for Hive Construction MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen Dick wrote: > I'm wondering if anyone has any experience with special types of glues for > use in assembling hives. > > . > > I need a glue that is quick-setting and permanent -- 50 year life -- in the > kind of conditions we experience. Heat, moisture, and rough handling are > normal in Beekeeping applications. > Hi Allen, I use Gorilla Glue. It is the best glue for wood that I have found. It expands 4 times its volume as it sets up. It should be clamped for at least one hour. I use nails or staples so its not a problem for time. They call it " The Toughest Glue on the Planet Earth ", I can't go against that so far. Its made in Denmark and Lutz File & Tool Co. imports it into the US. www.gorillaglue.com has some more information. Note: Put thin rubber gloves on when you work with it. Once it starts to set up , it will not was off with anything. I mean anything. I have used it for 3 years now and you can't break any joints , even with moisture in the wood. Get a small one and try it out. Its a little spendy. Not too bad if you buy 32 FL. oz or larger. I hope that helped. Roy > > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 09:29:05 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Adrian Wenner Subject: Natural Comb Cell size Comments: cc: phwells@earthlink.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" We have had considerable exchange about size dimensions in natural honey bee combs, with some fret about what might have been the case before the advent of manufactured foundation. On p. 261 in my 1845 copy of Thomas Nutt's book, HUMANITY TO BEES... I found the following description of cell size in natural comb: ****** "The depth of the brood-cells of drones and working Bees is about half an inch; their diameter is more exact, that of the drone-cells being three lines and one third, that of the workers two lines and three fifths. These, says Reaumer, are the invariable dimensions of all the cells, that ever were, or ever will be made." ******* An inch is twelve lines, for those who would like to do the math. We all know, though, that cells would have an AVERAGE width, with some standard deviation about that average. Adrian Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home phone) 967 Garcia Road (805) 893-8062 (UCSB FAX) Santa Barbara, CA 93106 [http://www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/index.htm] ***************************************************** * * "We not only believe what we see: * to some extent we see what we believe." * * Richard Gregory (1970) * ***************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 09:29:03 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Adrian Wenner Subject: Bees can't plan? Comments: cc: phwells@earthlink.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Bill Truesdell responded to a comment by Rick Green, in part: >There is nothing wrong with instinct. It has kept all of us alive for a >long time. But to deny it and substitute intelligence is poor science >and can lead to a host of incorrect assumptions. On p. 246 in my 1845 copy of Thomas Nutt's book, HUMANITY TO BEES... I found the following comment by the editor, Rev. Thomas Clark: "...[Bees] are devoid of reason: unerring instinct is their guide in all they do; of other rules and principles they have no need." ****** In 1946 (SCIENTIFIC AMERICAN), von Frisch echoed that sentiment: The brain of a bee is the size of a grass seed and is not made for thinking. The actions of bees are mainly governed by instinct. ..." ******* Recently, a few researchers have attempted to ascribe extraordinary mental powers(e.g., "cognition," judgement) to bees, but that's another issue. Adrian Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home phone) 967 Garcia Road (805) 893-8062 (UCSB FAX) Santa Barbara, CA 93106 [http://www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/index.htm] ***************************************************** * * "We not only believe what we see: * to some extent we see what we believe." * * Richard Gregory (1970) * ***************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 10:17:45 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Donald Aitken Subject: Re: Occam's Razor applied to Comb Size MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Mike: You might also like to apply Einsteins rule, which was: Everything should be as simple as possible, but no simpler... Best regards Donald Aitken ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Rowbottom" > > > Sometimes the more complicated explanation is the right one. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 13:29:31 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Too much mail In-Reply-To: <6DC39BEB.6EC9EEF9.023E1E12@netscape.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Friends I apologize for contributing to the surge of emails lately. I am going to remain quiet for a while. If anyone wishes to continue this discussion off list, please feel free to contact me: -- Peter Borst ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 11:13:36 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Edwards Subject: Re: Too much mail MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Borst wrote: > Friends > I apologize for contributing to the surge of emails lately. P.B. and all: For a list with about 1000 members, I think this is a good sign, rather than something to apologize for. I also belong to a satellite-navigation (GPS) newsgroup which easily posts more messages daily. I have enjoyed your well-thought-out and researched posts lately. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 13:02:23 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dennis M Murrell Subject: Re: Up-sizing? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Everyone, Could it bee that winter is almost over and the bees have been in the hive too long. A little mineral oil in their eyes? Or powdered sugar in their trachea? Maybe the essential oil is waning. Some formic fumes still floating around? I know those strips left something nauseating behind. :>) I can't wait for spring to continue my great adventure with small cell. It has worked for some. Will it work for me? I'll let you know. For $20 I can participate in an experiment that could allow me to focus on the bees rather than on disease. Throw in an MR or Russian breeder for another $50. Waste of money? Too many variables? Not for me. It's a great opportunity! It's not rocket science. I don't need a PhD or even a 1 cent government grant to answer the big IF it works question. The whys and hows can be saved for those with the education and the money . I like to know whys and hows and appreciate their work. But I know that this time next year I will be more informed about small cell than I am now. Best Wishes Dennis ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 09:00:48 +1300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robt Mann Subject: Re: bees can't plan ahead ? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" By coincidence, a respected NZ beekeeper posted the following on our Nat'l Beek Assoc list just after I raised the q on Bee-L: I have an observation , accurate I hope, some others out there may have a comment on. Recently I have moved a lot of very hungry hives off bush sites on the Otago coast after a mostly failed attempt to get some Manuka honey. Just too much cool and damp easterly weather when it mattered. I have moved them inland where at higher altitudes there is still some fields of good clover left. Existing hives in the area have made a fair crop considering the season, but they have now effectually stopped. Getting a few boxes of cut comb finished looks unlikely and they are robbing soon as I am in the yard.( And unusually agressive too.) However, and here is the point, the very hungry hives, now in just brood chambers, have really very quickly pulled in their winter stores. ( I'd say on average about 10+ kg in two weeks). Same pastures and weather, but apparently much more "desperate" to be anthropomorphic, to collect honey. This is not very scientific, nothing weighed for example, but certainly seems to be happening. I know from past experience if I were to harvest all the honey off the established colonies now and put a freshly extracted sticky on, then they would be more likely to work the tail end of the season and maybe even make me another box. I understand this is a result of chemicals released from the wet? So do bees actually " decide" how hard they will go out and gather on the basis of how much stores they have? Do they " know" how much honey they have stored for winter? How? Is there a chemical stimulus involved ? Or am I just fooled here and the other hives have put their 10 kg in the brood nest too? All theories welcome. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 11:02:59 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Too much mail In-Reply-To: <200202231838.g1NI3mnK017127@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi to all on BEE-l Peter Borst wrote: I apologize for contributing to the surge of emails lately. I am going to remain quiet for a while. If anyone wishes to continue this discussion off list, please feel free to contact me. Reply: Okay Peter. Take a rest and when you are ready come back and the discussion WILL continue. In the mean time, besides the discussion here, anyone here on BEE-l is welcome to the daily discussion and view of archives for: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BiologicalBeekeeping Come and review the archives concerning small cell. YOu will find it amazing interesting to say the least. Or you can review a Saga written in despair on a sad journey back to clean sustainable beekeeping knowing Nature plays no second best if we are all going to make it through. For this please read: http://www.beesource.com/pov/lusby/ Also look at all the supporting documents posted along with it at the site. Regards to you, Dee A. Lusby __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games http://sports.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 12:58:19 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Natural comb cell size follow up Comments: To: Ahlert Schmidt MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello Ahlert and All, Ahlert wrote: Thus I do suggest that the selection pressure applied by some breeders for 4.9 mm will certainly select for the Africanized bee type. I would like to take the above statement by the noted biologist Ahlert Schmidt a step further. If the above statement by Ahlert is true then would not selecting for thelytoky (as Dee does) bring out the capensis genes if the bees were Africanized and were carrying both scutellata and capensis genes? Sincerely, Bob Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 12:36:40 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Richard Yarnell Organization: Oregon VOS Subject: Re: Too much mail In-Reply-To: <200202231838.g1NI3mnK017127@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII The worst think, in my view, is taking a civil, research based discussion off list. We're here because we signed up voluntarily and can either resign entirely or skip threads which become tedious. If everyone is careful to accurately label posts in the subject line, keeping the line so long as its appropriate but chaning it if the subject changes, as adults we can choose. The only time the number of posts becomes tedious is when they are disrespectful flames. Largely, this list (thanks moderators) avoids the need for insulated bee suits. On Sat, 23 Feb 2002, Peter Borst wrote: > Friends > I apologize for contributing to the surge of emails lately. I am > going to remain quiet for a while. If anyone wishes to continue this > discussion off list, please feel free to contact me: > -- > Peter Borst > --------------- Richard Yarnell, SHAMBLES WORKSHOPS | No gimmick we try, no "scientific" Beavercreek, OR. Makers of fine | fix we attempt, will save our planet Wooden Canoes, The Stack(R) urban | until we reduce the population. Let's composter, Raw Honey | leave our kids a decent place to live. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 16:23:33 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Zachary Huang Subject: Bee and Pollination Database (Beta-test) To make a better connection between beekeepers (pollination providers) and growers (pollination receivers), I am attempting to build a database. The beta test site is now up at: http://beebase.cyberbee.net You can search for a grower or a beekeeper using either zipcode, area-code, county name, or last name, depending on your intended search scale. feel free to test it out and submit any suggestions to bees@msu.ed (subject beebase). You can register and write down your own login name and password so that you can change any info later. have fun, Zachary Huang http://beebase.cyberbee.net ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 17:34:04 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tim Sullivan Subject: Re: Glue for Hive Construction MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen, Have you tried Gorrilla Glue? Joint must be dampened with a sponge first but it sets quickly and is very strong. The glue expands slightly out of the joint as it cures and excess fresh glue can be cleaned up with paint thinner Timsul ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 18:18:39 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Rick Green Subject: Re: bees can't plan ahead ? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The "scientific mind" adjusts to too many variables by forming a hypothesis of the stimulus-response kind. Once a stimulus is found linking a "wet hive condition" to "rapidly building winter stores", the scientific mind stops the search for other explanations. The human is then satisfied that further evidence has been found for his original hypothesis of another S-R pairing and a solution to his original question has been found. A bridge to understanding what bees could be thinking can not be constructed with such a model. Contact me at: Rick Green 8 Hickory Grove Lane Ballston Lake, NY 12019 (518) 384-2539 Gothoney@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 17:31:16 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Green Subject: Re: Bee and Pollination Database (Beta-test) Comments: cc: bees@MSU.EDU MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: "Zachary Huang" To: Sent: Saturday, February 23, 2002 4:23 PM Subject: Bee and Pollination Database (Beta-test) > To make a better connection between beekeepers (pollination providers) and > growers (pollination receivers), I am attempting to build a database. > > The beta test site is now up at: http://beebase.cyberbee.net Such a database already exists. The most complete worldwide list of beekeepers who do pollination service can be found at The Pollination Home Page. I have expended hundreds of volunteer hours to make this, and the other info and images at this huge page. Why duplicate what already exists? Dave Green SC USA The Pollination Home Page (Now searchable): http://pollinator.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 18:13:24 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Green Subject: Re: Beekeeping in Baja California MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: "Luis Alaniz Gutierrez" > Alguien conoce si existe un listado de especies meliferas (bee plants) > para California, o para el Sur de California? (Anyone know if the existance of a list of meliferous species (bee plants) for California, or for southern California?) No he visitado a Baja, así que estoy conjeturando algo sobre su clima y vegetación, pero la pensaría para ser similar a el sud de Arizona. Y tenemos varios apicultores en la lista de esa región, así que espero que comenten. Usted puede ser que también visite el centro de investigación de la abeja de Carl Hayden en Tucson en: http://gears.tucson.ars.ag.gov/rf/index.html y discuten esto por E-mail con uno de su gente. (I haven't visited Baja, so I'm just guessing about your climate and vegetation, but I assume that it is similar to southern Arizona. We have several beekeepers on the list from this region, and I hope they comment. You may also want to visit the website for the Bee Research Lab at Tucson, and discuss this by e-mail with one of the folks there.) Dr. James Cane, que foco está más en abejas salvajes que abejas de miel, pero tiene muchos de experiencia con las plantas del desierto y las abejas están en el Logan Utah. Usted puede tener acceso a su lista de las plantas norteamericanas de la abeja en: http://www.loganbeelab.usu.edu / Hacen vaya encendido la conexión el cultivar un huerto. (Dr. James Cane, who has focused more on wild bees than honeybees, but has much experience with desert plants and their bees, is now in Logan, Utah. You can access his list of North American bee plants by clicking on the bee garden section at the Logan Bee Lab web page.) He visitado el desierto de Sonoran en el Arizona, y he aprendido que el ocotillo, el acacia del catsclaw, y el mesquite eran plantas importantes de la miel. El néctar fluye, por supuesto es dependiente sobre las lluvias. Poco después una lluvia del monsoonal, las explosiones del desierto en la floración y las abejas trabajan furiosamente. La producción seria de la miel tendría que anticipar la época de la lluvia, y tiene las abejas en la población máxima a ser lista. Pensaría que ésta sería una clase difícil de apicultura. Si falta las lluvias, los costes de prepararlas serían perdidos. (I visited the Sonoran Desert of Arizona and learned that ocotillo, catsclaw acacia, and mewquite are important honey plants. The nectar flow depends on seasonal rains. After the monsoon, there is an explosion of flowers, and the bees work furiously. Successful honey production depends upon anticipating the rainy season and have the bees up to maximum populations so they can take avantage of this brief flow. I would think this to be a difficult kind of beekeeping. If the rains fail, the cost of preparing the bees is lost.) Dave, de la costa húmeda del este de los E.E.U.U.... Dave, from the humid eastern coast of the USA.... Dave Green SC USA The Pollination Home Page (now searchable): http://pollinator.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 19:08:12 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Zachary Huang Subject: Re: Bee and Pollination Database (Beta-test) Dear Dave, I realized before I started my project that you have one. The main problem was that it was a "static" one. For example, one beekeeper in MI asked me why she kept getting calls after only advertised 5 years ago about pollination (I think I emailed about 1 year ago to remove her) -- it took me a while to see where she was listed. In addition yours is not searchable (i.e. had to scroll). A lot of time will be (and have been) spent by you to maintain it. My hope is that the pollinator and beekeeper will keep this going themselves (i.e. direct user input). I hope this is not a duplication of efforts, but only will make it more convenient for both sides. Cheers, Zachary Huang http://www.cyberbee.net ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 19:20:39 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: How to encourage comb building MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit George Imirie wrote: I am afraid I will disappoint you, but unless there is a nectar flow on or an artificial nectar flow (1:1 sugar syrup), bees will NOT build any comb for any reason. >> And yet when I look at the debris that falls through my mesh floors onto the trays I occasionally insert to count fallen mites I frequently see fresh wax scales, even in the depths of winter. Chris ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 17:28:26 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Natural Comb Cell size MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > "...that of the workers two lines and three fifths. These, says Reaumer, are the invariable dimensions of all the cells, that ever were, or ever will be made." ... An inch is twelve lines, for those who would like to do the math. We all know, though, that cells would have an AVERAGE width, with some standard deviation about that average. < < < I went to http://www.convertit.com/ and asked what 2.6 lines is in metres. I got: Conversion Result: 2.6 line = 5.50333333333333E-03 meter Therefore, "the invariable dimensions of all the cells, that ever were, or ever will be made" is 5.5 mm. I guess that settles it. Except for the deviation. allen ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 18:36:01 -0800 Reply-To: beekeeper82@yahoo.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Carm Subject: Thank-you In-Reply-To: <200202141402.g1EE2VA07252@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi there, To all who replyed to my emails about pollination in California, the bee supplies there, and beekeeping information in Vancouver, I would like to say thank-you. The information was appreciated. Regards, Carm __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games http://sports.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 20:19:27 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Consciousness, was "Bees can't plan?" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Any discussion of animal consciousness will quickly polarize into two distinct groups. The first believes that human beings possess consciousness and animals either do not, or if they do, it cannot be satisfactorily proved that they do. Animal awareness is viewed as a sort of black box, and any description of what animals might be thinking or feeling is dismissed as "anthropomorphism". The other group believes that there is no reason not to suppose that consciousness or awareness of some sort is present in any organisms that possess central nervous systems. Naturally, a dog will have a different experience of the world than a person, and so will a honey bee. But these three creatures have in common (among many things) the awareness of light, time, and they possess memory and the ability to successfully navigate in the environment. But finally, the question of consciousness in animals turns back to: what is consciousness in people? -- and most of the same problems we have with animal awareness are here, as well. One cannot *know* in any real sense, the consciousness of another person and we must rely on observation (as well as their reports) to form of a picture of *what it is like* to be them. I only say all this because I think this a very interesting topic but one which has several pitfalls. One is the problem that no one yet agrees what consciousness is, even in us, and another is that very little about it can really be proved in the classical sense. --------------------------------- Robert Griffin: Contrary to the widespread pessimistic opinion that the content of animal thinking is hopelessly inaccessible to scientific inquiry, the communicative signals used by many animals provide empirical data on the basis of which much can reasonably be inferred about their subjective mental experiences. Because mentality is one of the most important capabilities that distinguishes living animals from the rest of the known universe, seeking to understand animal minds is even more exciting and significant than elaborating our picture of inclusive fitness or discovering new molecular mechanisms. Cognitive ethology presents us with one of the supreme scientific challenges of our times, and it calls for our best efforts of critical and imaginative investigation. --------------------------------- David Chalmers: Consciousness poses the most baffling problems in the science of the mind. There is nothing that we know more intimately than conscious experience, but there is nothing that is harder to explain. All sorts of mental phenomena have yielded to scientific investigation in recent years, but consciousness has stubbornly resisted. Many have tried to explain it, but the explanations always seem to fall short of the target. Some have been led to suppose that the problem is intractable, and that no good explanation can be given. -- Peter Borst ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 18:53:29 -0800 Reply-To: beekeeper82@yahoo.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Carm Subject: Kreg Tools and Boxes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hello there, I am hoping that someone with more experiance than I in beekeeping and in woodworking can help answer a qustion for me. Has anyone used a Kreg Tool (also called a Pocket hole Jig)when assembling boxes? How did it go? How many screws did you use, and how did the boxes stand up when used? If anyone has anything to say, please let me know. I have seen them, watched their vidio, etc. but am still not sure. For those of you who have no clue what I am talking about, please visit their web site at www.Kregtool.com From all I have seen I assume it would work, using butt joints, but... Thanks for the help in advance. Regards, Carm __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games http://sports.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 18:31:33 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Donald Aitken Subject: Re: Glue for Hive Construction Comments: To: beekeeper82@yahoo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Carm: The scrap plywood I use is large enough to make one piece sides and ends. I join the pieces together at right angles with two #20 biscuits and two #6 screws 2" long ( these are for clamping the joint while it hardens but I suppose they provide some strength. Using the Titebond II glue, I have not yet had any failures in the glue lines. It is a very quick way to make supers; in fact they seem to take about as long to make as it takes to assemble the finger jointed ones. Best regards ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 22:38:42 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Rodney Farrar Subject: Re: Glue for Hive Construction MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I use Titebond II, have been using for three years with no problems. Rodney In VA ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 13:26:46 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: size MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Stimey& All, > Can anyone say cell size wasn't increased as an attempt to > induce larger bees that would over winter better in northern regions. > I have never heard this discussed in the old beekeeping books I have. It was an attempt to get the bees to forage on flowers nectar that their tongues could not reach and, so they thought, so they could carry more nectar back to the hive. I myself would think that A smaller bee would winter better. This I will find out soon. Not all animals in the north are larger, true some are but others are not. For instance, our frogs up here in Alaska are pretty small. But our mosquitoes are big enough to carry you away in some regions. Keith Malone Chugiak, Alaska USA starrier@yahoo.com http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney Check out current weather in my area and 5 day forecast; http://www.wx.com/myweather.cfm?ZIP=99654 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 00:04:24 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Green Subject: Re: Bee and Pollination Database (Beta-test) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Zachary Huang" > I realized before I started my project that you have one. The main problem was that it was a "static" one. I spend about two weeks each winter, updating the database in preparation for the coming spring. In addition I receive many unsolicited e-mails that offer new or updated listings, so the list is hardly static. > For example, one beekeeper > in MI asked me why she kept getting calls after only advertised 5 years ago about pollination (I think I emailed about 1 year ago to > remove her) While errors certainly do happen, I generally respond to such info within 48 hours. One problem is spam, which makes it impossible for me to open every e-mail I receive (you'll note that I recently changed my e-mail address to get away from this, at least for awhile). The other problem is the subject that folks use when e-mailing me. Anything that is labeled pollinator page, or pollinator listing, gets opened first. Stuff that appears to be spam is often deleted. Why didn't you send a second note, if it was obviously missed? Sometimes e-mails don't even go thru.... -- it took me a while to see where she was listed. In addition yours is not searchable (i.e. had to scroll). Zachary, you need to spend a little more time at the page, or at least note my sig file. There is most definitely a search engine, and it works very well, except that there is a little delay from the time a new listing is made until it is placed in the search engine database by the spider. You'll find the search engine at the bottom of the index page. In looking at my site statistics (they show the search term folks use to come to the page), I find that many of the "hits" on the page come from the search engine from folks looking for specific apiaries. These can come either from the index page or from the WWW. This is part of the value of a listing on The Pollination Home Page, to beekeeping businesses. It is a relatively reliable way to get into the WWW search engines, which is getting more and more difficult as web pages proliferate. > I hope this is not a duplication of efforts, but only will make it more convenient for both sides. That's what I see it as. And I'm afraid the duplication will lead to a dissipation of the value of both. Do you think Extension should be competing with what the private sector is already doing? What do the rest of our beekeeping community think about this? Dave Green SC USA The Pollination Home Page (Now searchable): http://pollinator.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 00:03:05 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: Kreg Tools and Boxes Comments: To: beekeeper82@yahoo.com In-Reply-To: <200202240316.g1O2qfmW029560@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I am hoping that someone with more experiance than I >in beekeeping and in woodworking can help answer a >qustion for me. Has anyone used a Kreg Tool (also >called a Pocket hole Jig)when assembling boxes? I've got a simple kreg tool that works well for the limited use I need it for. It's nothing more than a metal block you clamp to the work piece and a double drill bit that fits in the block to drill the pocket hole and pilot hole. I've used it for several projects. Works great for butt joints and I've even used it when renovating a house to effectively toe nail a new stud in place where a hammer just wouldn't work and it avoids the splits you typically get with toe nailing. It makes a very strong butt joint, but I see little reason to use when making supers. It's typically used when you don't want to see the screw from one side of the workpiece. Exposed screws shouldn't make too much difference in the durability/longevity of the box. That said, I'd use 3 screws per joint on a medium super, 4 on a deep. It might be a bit overkill, and I have used only 2 on mediums when I was short of screws and they seemed to hold up well, but that was with mitered joints with screws though the face, not strictly butt joints. Either way I'd use a good glue in the joint (Titebond 2 or similar). -Tim ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 01:17:29 -0500 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Kreg Tools and Boxes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Carm asked: > I am hoping that someone with more experience than I > in beekeeping and in woodworking can help answer a > question for me. Has anyone used a Kreg Tool (also > called a Pocket hole Jig) when assembling boxes? No, and I'd not bother. They might be OK for someone's first few furniture projects, but they will add nothing but cost to beekeeping equipment. There are lots of "systems" like those. The reason they exist is that joinery can be ornery. Various companies offer "solutions" that replace a little thought and ingenuity with mass-produced specialized tools and hardware. I think that they are more trouble than the traditional methods (except for "square-drive screws", which I think will someday make the phillips head screwdriver seem as quaint as Witworth wrenches are today). Why not just go down to the public library and check out a book on basic joinery? Beekeepers and woodenware makers call the joints on beehive components with interlocking fingers "dovetail joints", but the proper woodworking term would be "box joint" or "finger joint". Box joints are easy. Anyone can make a jig for their table saw in an hour or less, and be cranking out supers as fast as their dadoo blade can cut. Here's a decent set of box-joint jig instructions on the web, but the dimensions need to be modified for beehives (and ignore the sales pitch for buying a dial caliper, too): http://www.woodmagazine.com/woodmall/projects/boxjntjig.html There are a few woodenware vendors selling supers with what I would call a "milled corner joint". These are fine, and they minimize exposed end-grain but require stock that is absolutely planar for the scheme to work. If you do not yet have an adjustable dadoo blade, save yourself about $40 - check out Cummins Tools: http://www.cuminstools.com Much of the stuff Cummins sells is cheap "Made in China" junk that I would not trust at 2 PRM, let alone hundreds, but their adjustable dadoo blade is the same exact one sold by Sears at 1/3 the price. Carbide tipped, easy to adjust, and it will likely outlive your kids if you only cut softwood into bee equipment. Here it is: http://www.cumminstools.com/tap/tools/6733.html One more hint - stay away from Lowes, Home Depot, and the other national chains when buying lumber. Find a lumber yard that is NOT part of a national chain. The smaller guys compete with the big boys by simply selling better quality wood at about the same price, and their wood is more than worth a few extra pennies a foot to avoid an half-hour digging through a stack of so-called "Top Choice" lumber to find a dozen boards that are not warped. ("Lowes" seems to describe the quality of goods!) jim ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 23:48:51 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Kreg Tools and Boxes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > There are a few woodenware vendors selling supers with > what I would call a "milled corner joint". . By this do you mean the rabbet joint? See http://www.azwoodman.com/boxes/butt-joint.jpg for a picture. If so, I should mention that we have many, many boxes made this way and they serve just as well, and as long, as the finger jointed ones. Moreover a dado is not required to make them, if you are only making a few. The rabbet can be made with two saw cuts, one with the board flat and the other with it on end. >These are fine, > and they minimize exposed end-grain but require stock > that is absolutely planar for the scheme to work That means pick boards that are flat when buying, and keept hem wrapped in plastic until cut and assembled, taking them out only when ready to cut, and covering them again unless they are to be assembled immediately. That applies if you are in a dry area or in a shop that is heated. If you are in a damp, rainy climate, drying is not such a worry. When cutting, remember that wet wood can shrink as much as 1/2" in width across a 9-1/2" board. Check the archives at http://www.internode.net/honeybee/BEE-L/. We have covered this topic in some depth (somewhere). > One more hint - stay away from Lowes, Home Depot, and the > other national chains when buying lumber. YMMV. We find in Calgary that Home Depot sometimes has really good wood, especially when it cannot be exported to the US due to the softwood lumber dispute. allen http://www.internode.net/honeybee/diary/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 09:08:41 -0500 Reply-To: mpalmer@together.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: michael palmer Subject: Re: Kreg Tools and Boxes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen Dick wrote: > >These are fine, > > and they minimize exposed end-grain but require stock > > that is absolutely planar for the scheme to work > > That means pick boards that are flat when buying, and keept hem wrapped in > plastic until cut and assembled, taking them out only when ready to cut, and > covering them again unless they are to be assembled immediately. Sometimes the boards will "cup" anyway. If they do here's how I straighten them. I spray a little water on the cement floor of my shop. I then lay the cupped boards on the wet floor, concave side down. Depending how badly they are cupped, it will take from a couple hours to overnight to straighten. The boards can then be milled. Mike > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 09:05:13 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Consciousness, was "Bees can't plan?" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Borst wrote: > David Chalmers: > > Consciousness poses the most baffling problems in the science of the > mind. There is nothing that we know more intimately than conscious > experience, but there is nothing that is harder to explain. All sorts > of mental phenomena have yielded to scientific investigation in > recent years, but consciousness has stubbornly resisted. Many have > tried to explain it, but the explanations always seem to fall short > of the target. Some have been led to suppose that the problem is > intractable, and that no good explanation can be given. There have been some excellent writing about consciousness, especially as they relate to computers and artificial intelligence. Which is one reason why the issue is difficult to define, because once you define it you open up a pandora's box of ethical problems. But our discussion is with bees and planning. I have no problem with instinct as the driving force. Another word is behavior when we apply it to humans, but it is instinct. We have it mapped in our genes just like the honeybee, but we also have conciseness, which allows us to override that instinct. Bill Truesdell Bath, Me ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 08:40:57 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Zachary Huang Subject: Re: Bee and Pollination Database (Beta-test) On Sun, 24 Feb 2002 00:04:24 -0500, Dave Green wrote: > Zachary, you need to spend a little more time at the page, or at least >note my sig file. There is most definitely a search engine, and it works >very well, except that there is a little delay from the time a new listing >is made until it is placed in the search engine database by the spider. >You'll find the search engine at the bottom of the index page. Dave, I am sorry when I started my project about one year ago, I did not noticed the search engine there. My apology if I missed it then, although I suspect that the search engine is quite new. I did some test, searching "MI" I got 3 back, but on your Michigan page you had at least 6-7 entries with MI in their address. In addition, my impression of search engine (google.com included), is that the lag is quite long (about 1-6 months). I do not think it is a matter of 2-3 days (the robot will come in once a week at best, then it has to be integrated with their database). > Do you think Extension should be competing with what the private sector >is already doing? What do the rest of our beekeeping community think about >this? Again, this is your opinion. It does not need to be (and certainly not my intention). There are so many bee pages right now and I do not see competition there (if anything it might help each with the mutual links). I will link your page to mine and perhaps it can be complementary instead of competitive. I started this out as a Michigan project because I get about 10-20 calls each year. However it is just as easy to program for the whole country. I am now getting anything from this project, other than the satisfaction that it will help beekeepers, and perhaps some credit. SO THE BUTTOM LINE IS, if most of people think this is done with bad faith, I can discontinue the project since it has not been officially launched yet (or simply turn the programs to you!). so get your votes in :) Zachary Huang http://bees.msu.edu ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 14:31:44 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: jcking Subject: Kreg Pocket hole jig Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Carm - I have a Kreg jig and have recently used it to make frames to support 8 mesh hardware cloth for mite detection/collection at the bottom of my hives. These are horizontal frames with the same outer dimensions as a hive box. The tool works well for this. I would not see any benefit or reason to use the Kreg jig if you are going to make boxes that will be butt jointed - just screw through the cross grain of one side into the side grain of the other. Jim King ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 18:19:27 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Consciousness in animals Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Greetings I neglected to include references in my previous post (and made one error); 1. Animal Minds by Donald R. Griffin, University of Chicago Press, 1992. 2. Facing up to the problem of consciousness by David J. Chalmers Journal of Consciousness Studies 2 (3), 1995, pp. 200-219 The full text is available at: http://www.zynet.co.uk/imprint/chalmers.html -- Peter Borst ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 18:57:16 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dee Lusby Subject: Natural Comb Cell size MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi to all on BEE-L Adrian Wenner said Thomas Nutt was saying what Reamure said. According to MArtin Hall Thomas WIldman was also quoting Reamure, but also Maraldi. So Nutt and Wildman were quoting the same source but giving different figures. Something is not right here then, something must be mismatching somewhere! Was Adrian giving correct quote? Had Nutt got it right? HAd he understood maybe as Allen Dick suggested that the French way if measureing should have been in MM? ANy way Wildman's figures is more in line with Cowan's figures from my 1904 book, The Honey Bee, It's Natural History Anatomy, and Physiology (also by the way, named Thomas as the other two). Regards, Dee A. Lusby __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games http://sports.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 09:00:50 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: Up-sizing? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Borst writes: <> Perhaps not all that broad. The 1917 ABC & XYZ discusses the variation in cell size which can be 'shown by careful measurement', and differentiates between natural comb, at 28 13/15 cells to the square inch, and comb built on foundation, at 27 per square inch. Wedmore (1946) differentiates between foundation measuring 'five cells per inch' and that measuring 4 3/4. I think the fact that they made these distinctions indicates that their measurements were more accurate than you suggest; the difference between 4.9 and 5.4 is greater than this. Could there be a piece of old comb preserved in some museum somewhere? Has anyone tried to find out? Given the Victorians' habit of preserving all sorts of specimens, it would almost seem surprising if there's nothing sitting in a bottle in a back room somewhere. Regards, Robert Brenchley RSBrenchley@aol.com Birmingham UK ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 07:05:52 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Paint peeling from floor MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello All, A couple beekeepers in our area have used epoxy paint on their honey = house floor only to have the paint later lift in areas. Both steam = cleaned and etched the floor with acid but only used the one part epoxy = paint and not the two part.=20 Any ideas on what went wrong? I have always been afraid of paint peeling in my honey house so I have = used a clear restaurant type of commercial floor sealer (sonijorn ) = which never peals but does not look as nice as the color epoxy floors. = What would I need to do to go to the gray color epoxy floor? Could I go = over the Sonijorn coating with a two part epoxy? Thanks in advance. Sincerely, Bob Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 06:49:13 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: rust on queen excluders MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello All, Yesterday while going through a beekeepers estate sale we came across a = large stack of rusted queen excluders. I believe the excluders had = been scrapped to remove wax instead of using a better method and surface = rust followed as the excluders have not been in use for about five = years. The widow asked me what could be done to renew the excluders. I really = do not know of a method for badly rusted excluders but have heard of a = few for mildly rusted excluders . Any successful methods BEE-l members = want to share? Rust on queen excluders tears bees wings. Never scrape a queen excluder = with a hive tool as the practice removes the coating which protects the = excluder from rusting. Sincerely, Bob Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 10:08:56 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: CAIR Subject: Pollen in N. Va.? In-Reply-To: <200202251436.g1PEKwma006354@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed My bees were very busy pollen yesterday in Northern Virginia. I thought it was too early for pollen. What pollen could this be? What plants come into bloom when in the Northern Virginia area? Are there any books that list this info? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 12:08:40 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Epoxy peeling MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob asks about Epoxy Peeling. I had the same problem, with a DuPont Epoxy paint that required mixing the Epoxy with the paint (not sure what one-part and two-part means). I got to talk with a technical guy at DuPont...which was not easy. He assured me that the problem was moisture coming through the back side...up through the floor. I don't understand this, but the theory is that the Epoxy paint will not absorb moisture (it will repel moisture) after it is set, which is about 3 weeks. However, if it comes into contact with moisture during this set-up stage, something doesn't happen chemically and the barrier does not form. So...feeling a little sheepish, I peeled up the Epoxy (it came up in large sheets), applied the highest-quality sealer I could buy, and then reapplied the Epoxy. It has now been 4 years, lots of moisture on the "top" side (and presumably on the back as well), and no peeling! I also got tired of my Miller-type feeders leaking and decided to put the Epoxy on both sides, and no leaks! The DuPont guy told me that the chemical content of what I bought was the same as the Food Grade they sell, but the Food Grade sells for 3X the price. I asked why the price difference for the same contents and was told that the lots sold as Food Grade required lots of paperwork, stored for long periods, and left DuPont with a higher level of liability...thus the increased price. Hope this helps. Lloyd Mailto:Lloyd@rossrounds.com. Lloyd Spear Owner, Ross Rounds, Inc. The finest in comb honey production. Visit our web site at http://www.rossrounds.com. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 10:02:52 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Donald Aitken Subject: Re: Up-sizing? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Peter and Robert: I don't think that the number of cells per inch or per square inch is the parameter that is wanted in this discussion. The only measurements which might affect the development of the new bee are the depth and cross sectional area of the chamber. These measurements will vary with the age of the comb as cocoons build up and are removed and with the thickness of the cell walls as built. Of course, it is difficult to measure the actual dimensions. One way is to first measure the depth with an accurate depth gauge such as a dial indicator. The volume of the cell can be measured by filling it with water from a burette. The cross sectional area can then be found by calculation. It was mentioned on the list that varroa seemed less troublesome in old combs and this might be due to the reduced size of the cells in the old comb. Best regards Donald Aitken ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Brenchley" To: Sent: Monday, February 25, 2002 7:00 AM Subject: Re: Up-sizing? > Peter Borst writes: > > < Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Pollen in N. Va.? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Cair and All, My bees were very busy pollen yesterday in Northern Virginia. I thought = it was too early for pollen. The bulk of early pollen comes from trees such as Maples, Willows and = Elms in the U.S. Are there any books that list this info? Most bee books have got some information. Specific information can be found in American Honey Plants by Frank Pellet published by Dadant (1976) Or =20 Honey Plants of North America by John H. Lovell (Originally published = 1926 but reprinted 1999) A.I. Root offered a limited reprint of the book in 1999. Some libraries = still have the book. The reprint was a collectors item and only 250 = copies were made. Maybe Kim Flottum will comment on the availability.=20 Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 07:43:24 -1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Thomas Culliney Subject: Evolution MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robt Mann" To: Sent: Saturday, February 23, 2002 12:19 AM Subject: Re: Occam's Razor > It is helpful to begin by making clear what the term 'evolution' > means: the appearance of new life-forms - new species and bigger > categories genus, family, order, class, phylum, kingdom - over time... At its most basic level, organic evolution refers merely to changes in gene frequencies in populations of organisms. When we see a population of varroa mite becoming resistant to fluvalinate, this is evolution. Given enough time and other necessary circumstances (e.g., spatial isolation from other populations), changes in gene frequencies in a population can lead to speciation, "the appearance of new life-forms." Tom Culliney, Hawaii Dept. of Agriculture, Division of Plant Industry, 1428 South King St., Honolulu, HI 96814 U.S.A. E-mail: culliney@elele.peacesat.hawaii.edu Telephone: 808-973-9528 Fax: 808-973-9533 "To a rough approximation and setting aside vertebrate chauvinism, it can be said that essentially all organisms are insects."--R.M. May (1988) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 09:46:33 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Maurice Cobo Subject: Re: Paint peeling from floor Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed I was having the same problem on some of my hive boxes that I painted with epoxy paint only. I spoke to a painter about this problem and I was told that the reason this was happening was because I did not use a real good primer. (I did not use any primer). After that I been priming the boxes with the best primer that I can find and then I paint. The problem has not appeared again. The profesional painter told me that the primer was designed to penetrate the material setting a good foundation for the paint, paint alone does not do this. most of the boxes that I painted without primer stated to peal in 2 to 3 years, the ones that I used the primer first look in perfect condition many years later, except for phisical accidental damage spots, but the paint has not even tried to peel off. Also, is it possible that some oil got on the wood before paiting?. Maurice _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 09:55:04 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Maurice Cobo Subject: Re: Pollen in N. Va.? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Could be Crocus or dandillion. Here in Northern Utah we usually have both by the first week of March. Maurice _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 11:59:28 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Epoxy peeling MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Lloyd and All, I had the same problem, with a DuPont Epoxy paint that required mixing = the Epoxy with the paint (not sure what one-part and two-part means).=20 Sorry for my wording Lloyd. The epoxy the beekeepers used was already = mixed in one can. Sold by Home Depot etc. for use on floors=20 The DuPont guy told me that the chemical content of what I bought was = the same as the Food Grade they sell, but the Food Grade sells for 3X = the price. =20 I have been told the same thing by two different paint brand sellers. You answered my other question also Lloyd and I now believe I can simply = epoxy over my existing sealer without a problem as zero moisture will = come between the floor and the epoxy=20 Thanks again for the reply! Bob ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 22:58:47 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: bees can't plan ahead ? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Rick and All, Rick wrote; Bees work all spring and summer to save stores for a yet unseen winter. = That is planning. If you say they are only acting instinctively, try to = prove that assertion.=20 I believe bees act on instinct. I might not be able to prove the = assertion to you Rick but have proven the instinct theory to myself.=20 Bees do not in my opinion plan on saving honey for the next winter but = simply *hoard* honey when the opportunity arises.=20 Sincerely, Bob Harrison=20 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 15:45:39 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: Too much mail Comments: To: Peter Borst MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >I find that my participation is time consuming (my most precious asset) and that it clutters my hard disk. I am about to request that I be removed from the list due to the two reasons explained above. Personally, I’ve very disappointed to hear this. >I apologize for contributing to the surge of emails lately. I am going to remain quiet for a while. Peter: In my opinion there is entirely too much pedantic drivel on Bee-L--way more than there ought to be-- but your remarks are always well thought out and BACKED-UP by modern day references and not by something that someone wrote over a hundred and fifty years ago. Some of the writers here apparently are unable to refrain from putting two or three long-winded superficial articles on the list day in and day out. My mail box used to be cluttered, too. However, I changed my listserv settings so that I can simply go to the bee-l site and read postings. I more or less know which ones to ignore. Your remarks are generally always read. I hope you will continue to share your thoughts with the group. Regards, Dick P.S. A co-worker at my job has this on his desk: “Never argue with an idiot. Idiots will only bring you down to their level and beat you up with their experience.” ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 19:20:37 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Dave Cushman catching up MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 23/02/02 05:02:37 GMT Standard Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU writes: << what size the bees consider as natural (just giving them free rein does not achieve this) >> Dave, I don't follow this. If, experimentally, a locality (village bees) were to be kept on combs drawn without foundation, say in top bar hives, for a number of bee generations is it not likely that natural selection would produce natural sized bees in natural sized combs for that locality? With regard to your comment on the attractiveness of Marla Spivak, perhaps you should remember that as a great grandfather you should no longer notice such attributes, or have you been at the pollen again? Chris ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 09:52:30 -0500 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Kreg Tools and Boxes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> There are a few woodenware vendors selling supers >> with what I would call a "milled corner joint". . Allen Dick offered: > By this do you mean the rabbet joint? > See http://www.azwoodman.com/boxes/butt-joint.jpg > for a picture. The caption of the diagram says that's a butt joint, and it looks like a butt joint to me. Let's face it, the terminology of woodworking varies just as much as terminology in beekeeping. A "rabbet" is any grove in board. A common example is the grove cut in the top of a super upon which the frames rest (confusingly called a "rebate" by some). What I was speaking of is a pair of interlocking groves, running along the entire edge of the boards, one in each board. I know that Brushy Mountain Bee Farm (of NC, USA) sells (or did sell) them. > If so, I should mention that we have many, many boxes > made this way. Proof that the type of joint used really does not matter. > Moreover a dado is not required to make them, if you are > only making a few. A very good point there. >> ...and they minimize exposed end-grain but require stock >> that is absolutely planar for the scheme to work > We find in Calgary that Home Depot sometimes has really > good wood, Please, don't gloat. :) > especially when it cannot be exported to the US Cannot? They choose not to export. Canadian firms can export all the wood they want, any time they want. > due to the softwood lumber dispute. Dispute? There's no dispute. There may be some sputtering and posturing still going on up there, but a "dispute" would require some disagreement over facts. To date, Canada has challenged no facts. Canada was dumping wood, just like the Chinese were dumping honey. A 19% government subsidy is hard to hide, and harder to explain. The International Trade Commission ruling on the matter was not disputed by Canada at all, which indicates that Canada cannot argue with the facts. As I recall, Canada ran crying to the WTO about "unfair duties". Not the sort of good sportsmanship shown by Canada in the curling finals. Actually, the lumber thing is nothing more than tit-for-tat retaliation against Canada for banning US queens and packages. :) hehehe jim ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 09:38:40 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Bee and Pollination Database (Beta-test) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >note my sig file. There is most definitely a search engine, and it works > >very well, except that there is a little delay from the time a new listing > >is made until it is placed in the search engine database by the spider. > >You'll find the search engine at the bottom of the index page. Although perhaps not entirely central to the issue, I think I should mention that there is no need to rely on local search engines which may or may not work. Installing the Google toolbar from http://toolbar.google.com/ allows anyone to search all of *any* site anytime, whether it has its own search engine or not. allen ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 13:13:03 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Foundation Mills Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Greetings I have access to a collection of beekeeping antiques, including smokers, honey pots, and three foundation mills. Two of the mills have hand cranks on them so they may be quite old. I can't make foundation with them, but I put a piece of plain paper through each to see how may cells per inch they make. One appears to be made of copper or bronze, is in very good condition; quite beautiful to look at, in fact. Perhaps this is the oldest one? It prints out ten cells in two inches (50.8 mm or 5.08 per cell). Another silver colored one, also in good shape shows 2 1/16" per ten (5.23mm per cell). The third has obviously been used a lot, has very thick cell walls and the cells run 2 1/8" per ten or about 5.4mm from center to center. Peter Borst, Ithaca NY USA ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 11:52:55 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: # of Pollination Sites MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Opinions have been requested... Dave certainly has an outstanding site. Zachary will also. I am of the opinion that both will have better sites because of the existence of the other. I also think that Zachary is being more than fair by his offer to link his site to Dave's. I think both sites should continue. Lloyd Mailto:Lloyd@rossrounds.com. Lloyd Spear Owner, Ross Rounds, Inc. The finest in comb honey production. Visit our web site at http://www.rossrounds.com. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 19:13:58 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Dave Cushman catching up MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Chris & all > I don't follow this. If, experimentally, a locality (village bees) were to > be kept on combs drawn without foundation, say in top bar hives, for a number > of bee generations is it not likely that natural selection would produce > natural sized bees in natural sized combs for that locality? Only to a certain extent... I see bee size an a number of incremental, quantum like, states that require an impetus to shift from one to another. In the absence of pressure for change the bees soldier on with what body size they find themselves in. In other words to return the bee size to the original status quo will require some deliberate regression. > With regard to your comment on the attractiveness of Marla Spivak, perhaps > you should remember that as a great grandfather you should no longer notice > such attributes, Hush Chris, BEE-L has standards for content! :-) It is true, I have been a great grand dad for two years now, and am soon to be doubly blessed with great grandchildren. Best Regards & 73s... Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website... http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 12:15:44 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Radiation Damage? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Has anyone on the list had experience with using electron beam radiation (or any other type) for sterilization of bee equipment? A neighbour here in Alberta has been pioneering the use of radiation, with the help of the research people at Beaverlodge, and he has had good success the first time around. He reports no disease and beautiful brood patterns in the irradiated combs, combs which were in some cases riddled with scale from (resistant) AFB. However, one anecdotal report I heard (that may actually refer to using radioactive substances rather than electron beam) mentioned that "...after 3 or 4 trips the wood became so punky he could push his finger through it and nails kept falling out". If this is the case, we are wondering how many times the equipment can go thru the electron beam and still be useable. I have heard that radiation is routinely used in Aus. If so, can anyone say what kind, what doses, and what effects are seen? TIA allen http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/Diary/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 11:17:20 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: The Victors Subject: Full depth plastic comb MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All, Does anyone know where I could find plastic comb similar to that used for foundation material, except full depth? I need some for an experiment that I am working on. I don't think that it would be necessary to have it waxed. I am guessing that if it is out there someplace, the group would know. Thanks, Steve Victors Big Lake, Alaska thfofc@gci.net ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 19:58:29 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Foundation Mills MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Peter & all Any ideas on age of the three mills? They may allow you to run a small piece of modelling clay through the rollers as paper is a bit springy. Best Regards & 73s... Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website... http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 16:21:20 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Pollen in N. Va.? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In Northern, VA, in late January, you often have skunk cabbage, alder, or maple. In late February, you often get willow. This year, right now, jonquils and physithia are in bloom in Montgomery County. George Imirie ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 14:17:52 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Kreg Tools and Boxes Comments: To: jfischer@supercollider.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > > By this do you mean the rabbet joint? > > See http://www.azwoodman.com/boxes/butt-joint.jpg > > for a picture. > > The caption of the diagram says that's a butt joint, Actually the caption says "rabbet-butt" > and it looks like a butt joint to me. One end is clearly labelled "butt cut" the other end is marked "rabbet cut". A butt joint is made with two butt cut pieces. > A "rabbet" is any grove in board. Interesting syntax. Assuming you meant "any groove in (a) board), I think the word you need here is "dado". http://education.yahoo.com/reference/dictionary/entries/43/d0004300.html . A rabbet is specifically at the end, and usually made for joining, although other uses are sometimes made -- as in beekeeping frame rests. VARIANT FORMS: also re·bate ( rbt, rbt) NOUN: 1. A cut or groove along or near the edge of a piece of wood that allows another piece to fit into it to form a joint. 2. A joint so made. VERB: Inflected forms: rab·bet·ed also re·bat·ed, rab·bet·ing, re·bat·ing, rab·bets, re·bates See http://education.yahoo.com/reference/dictionary/entries/14/r0001400.html for a further illustration, similar to the one at http://www.azwoodman.com/boxes/butt-joint.jpg > A common example > is the grove cut in the top of a super upon which the > frames rest (confusingly called a "rebate" by some). > > due to the softwood lumber dispute. > > Dispute? There's no dispute. I am disappointed in you Jim. That was a deliberate, off-topic troll. It was also spectacularly uninformed. 'Softwood lumber dispute' is the term that is used on *both* sides of the border to describe whatever has caused the idling of Canadian mills and widespread availability of good lumber for Canadian beekeepers. (And higher prices for US beekeepers, I might add) Check out the joinery references above, then after you learn something about carpentry, why not learn something about the dispute? Just do a quick Google search on 'softwood lumber dispute'. You'll find sources on both sides of the border using the term, and you will also know what you are talking about next time. allen ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 12:18:57 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: Full depth plastic comb MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Steve & All, > Does anyone know where I could find plastic comb similar to that used > for foundation material, except full depth? > Below is a manufacturer of a full depth plastic comb. Also I will have lots of pierco frames after I switch over to 4.9 mm. and it proves successful. PERMA-COMB SYSTEMS 22543 Ventura Blvd., Suite #222A Woodland Hills, CA 91364 Ph: 818-224-2191 Fax: 818-224-2191 E-mail: atina@gateway.net > I need some for an experiment that I am working > on. I don't think that it > would be necessary to have it waxed. > So let us in on this experiment. Keith Malone Chugiak, Alaska USA starrier@yahoo.com http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney Check out current weather in my area and 5 day forecast; http://www.wx.com/myweather.cfm?ZIP=99654 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 17:00:49 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Milt Lathan Subject: Seeking Hobbyist Equipment Opinions Dear Experienced Hobbyist, IF YOU HAD IT TO DO OVER, would you invest in wood or plastic frames? What about other plastic parts such as tops and bottom boards? Do you still embed wire in wax foundation? Whatever, the case - I would welcome your opinions about what hive equipment you use and why. Personally, all I learned about Plastic frames last year was Don't Buy the super cheap no-name ones - the tops are too thin and where the bees drew out only one side the whole frame is warped. My Pierco frames were just fine except for one case of wild comb. Thanks. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 16:57:26 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Leigh Subject: skunk cabbage In-Reply-To: <200202252123.g1PJnZpK017416@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" >George, I differ with you about skunk cabbage. We have a lot of it down by the creek and it isn't up yet. Maybe in closer to the city. But the bees were bringing in a pale yellow pollen today, and over the weekend it was a light charcoal color. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 16:19:52 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Hamilton Subject: Re: Seeking Hobbyist Equipment Opinions In-Reply-To: <200202252207.g1PFl8Oa009402@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Just heard John Skinner from University of Tennessee give a talk about their research into this. They found that the black plastic frames and black foundation did almost well as wired beeswax. Plastic frames didn't hold up in the extractor as well as wood. Other forms of plastic foundation did quite a bit worse as far as getting worked by the ladies Without having all his numbers to share, I came away thinking to keep wiring beeswax foundation into wooden frames was by far the best for my situation, yours may be different. Dave > > IF YOU HAD IT TO DO OVER, would you invest in wood or plastic frames? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 18:01:49 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Coleene Davidson Subject: Re: Seeking Hobbyist Equipment Opinions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Milt, I have had bees for the past 4 years and can do prefer wood frames with Duragilt foundation for both brood chamber and extracting frames. It takes a while to learn to pick out eggs on new comb but with a little practice and the sun at the right angle it is amaizing how they jump out at you. The main thing is patience, and once you get the hang of it, you will wonder why you ever had any problems. As for the rest of my equipment, it is all wood. I picked up some plastic hive equipment a couple of years ago at an auction. I use the outer covers to hold honey supers after I remove them. They are great at keeping the honey from leaking all over everything. Coleene ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 16:52:32 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Mike Churchill Subject: Re: do I HAVE to paint treated hives In-Reply-To: <200202212125.g1LKSjoC003340@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 02:31 PM 2/21/02 -0600, you wrote: >I've just treated a new hive with copper naphthenate. It looks quite >nice. Do I have to paint it or would it be OK as is? Mark, The copper naphthenate will protect against insect damage (termites), and fungi (mildew, mold, dry rot) but it will not protect the wood from sun damage. Paint will protect wood from UV damage, and will minimize the swelling/shrinking/warping due to fluctuating moisture levels. I would paint (or marine varnish) the wood. Curiously, Merichem's web site explicitly mentions beehives as an application for their product (along with non-obvious uses such as tents, fishing nets, and fabric). http://www.merichem.com/COPPER/Index.HTM Mike Churchill Mike Churchill, Beginning Beekeeper | "The difference is, that, mike.churchill@netmechanic.com | instead of dirt and poison, we -------------------------------------| have rather chosen to fill our http://www.netmechanic.com | hives with honey and wax; thus Power Tools for Your Web Site - Link | furnishing mankind with the two and HTML testing, Server Reliability | noblest of things, which are Testing, Website Promotion Tools | sweetness and light." J. Swift ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 18:21:32 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: bees can't plan ahead ? In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" At 9:00 +1300 2/24/02, Robt Mann wrote: > So do bees actually " decide" how hard they will go out and gather on the >basis of how much stores they have? Do they " know" how much honey >they have stored for winter? How? Is there a chemical stimulus involved ? >Or am I just fooled here and the other hives have put their 10 kg in the >brood nest too? I believe that honey bees will gather honey just as long as it is available. Whether they put it in the supers or the brood nest has to do with a variety of factors. Things that favor putting the honey in the supers include: heavy honey flow, strong colony, no queen excluders, etc. Things that favor honey ending up in the brood nest include: slow honey flow, weak colony, queen excluders, and the shortening of days. But I do not think they will stop gathering honey when "they have enough". If they run out of room, they may stop because the foragers have no where to put the nectar. If this condition goes on for a while, they will fill the brood nest with honey and even build comb outside. Now none of this takes place with pollen. It has been discovered that a colony of bees will stop gathering pollen when their stores of it reach a particular critical mass. (Water is also gathered on an as needed basis.) But how does an individual bee *know* that there is enough pollen? This remains to be discovered but it does not appear that a pollen forager does a complete inventory of all the pollen cells (this would be very time consuming). Are there pollen monitors that keep track of the stores and communicate this info to the foragers? Don't know. One theory that has been advanced is that a returning forager is given a sample of the larval food and she could tell by the taste if it is rich enough. If it lacks pollen, she would know she has to go back out for more. This is one of the things that researchers like Tom Seeley study. This may have no practical benefit to the beekeeping world, but in this way our understanding of bee biology is increased. PB ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 16:36:24 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Adrian Wenner Subject: Too much mail? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Dick Allen wrote (in part), in response to Peter's decision to be less visible on BEE-L: >In my opinion there is entirely too much pedantic drivel on Bee-L--way >more than there ought to be -- but your remarks are always well thought out >and BACKED-UP by modern day references and not by something that someone >wrote over a hundred and fifty years ago. Dee Lusby asked about the same point: >Was Adrian giving correct quote? Had Nutt got it right? Had >he understood maybe as Allen Dick suggested that the French >way of measuring should have been in mm? ******** Actually, my 1845 quotation from Nutt was "tongue-in-cheek," and I am sorry if I offended Dick's sensitivities. I only posted that quotation after a couple of weeks of exchange about whether "natural" comb from earlier times would have had different cell sizes than what one finds today. Thomas Nutt's very early comment seemed appropriate at the time. I assure everyone that the pedantic comment by the editor, Rev. Thomas Clark, is not my style, as one can read in Item #1A on the following web site: http://www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/index.htm And, yes, Dee, I did get the quotation correct, having typed it directly out of my musty old copy of the book. Adrian p.s. I earlier commented privately to Peter Borst how much I have appreciated his well-researched presentations. Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home phone) 967 Garcia Road (805) 893-8062 (UCSB FAX) Santa Barbara, CA 93106 [http://www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/index.htm] ***************************************************** * * "We not only believe what we see: * to some extent we see what we believe." * * Richard Gregory (1970) * ***************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 19:46:49 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tim Sullivan Subject: Re: Seeking Hobbyist Equipment Opinions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit if I had it to do over again I would use all wood frames. I now have about half Pierco one piece frame and foundation and half wood frame with wax foundation. The Pierco ends of the top bars seem to suffer during removal and what to do with them when brood comb gets too old? The only time I had Pierco warp was my own fault for storing a couple of new frames on their sides instead of upright. Wood frames seem more work up front but long term more adaptable ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 19:51:10 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tim Sullivan Subject: Re: Seeking Hobbyist Equipment Opinions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Me Again - had another thought, When I used a plastic outer cover, the bees were constantly closing the hole in the inner cover with propolis. As soon as I put on a wood outer cover, the hole remained open Timsul ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 18:23:31 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Edwards Subject: Re: Bee and Pollination Database (Beta-test) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Zachary Huang wrote: > . so get your votes in :) > > Zachary Huang > http://bees.msu.edu Zachary, Please continue with your efforts - each database will have its own intrinsic advantages. Checking the phone book, I see that several different makes of cars are now offered. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 22:01:48 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Donald Franson Subject: Re: Evolution Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed There are several definitions of evolution, micro, macro ect. But this is not evolution, it is still a mite. it has not and will not evolve into anything else. resistance is simply a variation caused by natural selection or in this case misuse of man made chemistry. Donald _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 22:46:42 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Zachary Huang Subject: Re: Bee and Pollination Database (Beta-test) Thanks, Ed. Also to others who emailed me privately. Also, I am pleasently surprised to see 6 users registered in the last 3 days only! Another advantage of a true database vs plain ascii info on a web is that in the former the private information (phone #, email) is hidden from search engines and other programs that automatically "extracts" such info (who then sells them for profit!). This is where your junk mails come from. The "Beebase" will not allow such indexing and hides the info inside a database file. Of course a persistant spammer can go and search by county or zip code using my interface, but in general it is not worth their time to do this. The only problem with my type of database is that it will need to attract enough users (e.g. pollinator providers) first to be useful for the other type of users (the pollination seekers). Zachary Huang http://beebase.cyberbee.net ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 23:31:45 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Edward Markus Subject: Box Joint Jig An old friend just handed me some old woodenware machinery and particularly a box joint jig with which I am throughly 'tickled'. I want to use it and can figure it out, but would like to find out more about it. It is/was made by the Carl E. Johnson Company of Lincoln Park, Michigan. I find nothing on the web about this company. It has a serial # but no model number or year of manufacture, so I assume there was only one model made. If anyone has information on this little bit of beekeeping history I would love to have it. Thank you, Edward Markus Heart's Home Farm ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 22:24:13 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Donald Franson Subject: Re: rust on queen excluders Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed If they were mine and I had to salvage them, I would bead blast the rust off of them and then either chrome plate them or paint them with an acrylic enamel paint, the blasting will wear the metal away a little but the enamel will build it back up. Donald _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 22:20:49 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Donald Franson Subject: Re: Paint peeling from floor Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed I am a painter, maybe I can help here. Different epoxy paints have different uses, Some are elastic and will streach and give with movement such as expansion and contraction of the cement, others will harden brittle but can shrink as they harden or with age this can cause it to pull away from surfaces that they do not bond well with, Both kinds have properties which will cause it to fracture when "HIT" and this can also cause it to peal. Ceramic tile and primed steel as well as enameled surfaces are ideal surfaces for epoxy paint and is will last a long time on these surfaces, but wood and concrete need paints that are designed for use on them. Concrete should (read as must) be treated with Muric acid before painting as this will kill the lime that migrates to the surface and causes even concrete paint to peel. Hope this helps. Donald _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 17:52:58 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: T & M Weatherhead Subject: Copper naphthenate MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mike Churchill wrote > The copper naphthenate will protect against insect damage (termites), and > fungi (mildew, mold, dry rot) but it will not protect the wood from sun > damage. Paint will protect wood from UV damage, and will minimize the > swelling/shrinking/warping due to fluctuating moisture levels. For those Bee-ler's in Australia please note that copper naphthenate will not protect your bee boxes against termites (white ants). I can testify to that from my own experiences. Here in Australia, copper naphthenate is not recommended for termite protection and is only recommended for protection against decay (rot). If you want termite protection for things such as stands or bottom cleats, you will need to have CCA (copper chrome arsenate) treatment. CCA is not recommended for bee boxes, only those parts not in direct contact with the bees. Recommendations are also to paint your copper naphthenated boxes inside and out. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 03:42:21 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Green Subject: Re: # of Pollination Sites MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Lloyd Spear" To: > I think both sites should continue. > Visit our web site at http://www.rossrounds.com. Basically, Lloyd, you are saying that it would be OK for Dr. Huang to develop a new comb honey system (possibly even better than yours), using government and grant money, coupled with the latest technology available in a large university (that you can't afford), and give this equipment away to any and all. Would this be fair? Oh, yes, he would generously establish a link to your page, though. Or say, for our bee labs to develop a varroa-resistant line of queens, then give them away in such quantities that our established queen breeders could not sell theirs... I have always envisioned our bee labs, and our land grant universities in a partnership with the private sector, not in competition. I have always supported them insofar as they do this. I can see a case for Mr. Huang to develop, within the sphere of his official duties, a database for Michigan pollination, and I would cheerfully support that. THAT would be a case of cooperation. The pollinator database I have built is the prime feature of my page. My resources are limited. I built The Pollination Home Page over the years, with only my free time, and the limited resources I could give. When the World Wide Web was young, and I was only a few weeks from learning how to turn on a computer, I had a pollination web page up. It grew and developed over the years to be a huge, though perhaps not well-organized page. I always wanted it to be more, but I could afford neither the time, nor the latest technology to do it all. Now, as I have been shutting down my pollination business, I had hoped to further improve the web page, and develop its commercial possibilities. And John Edwards, I have long valued your contributions to this list, but I am really disappointed to hear your take on this, as a simple Ford and Chevy competition. It is much more like a government takeover of GM. It hurts to have Dr. Huang saunter in with nothing but criticism for my efforts, though he is obviously not very familiar with them, and basically tell me to get lost; he's taking over. It hurts to see him continue criticisms on his database intro that have been refuted here on this list. It hurts even more to realize that any commercial possibilities of the pollination page will be forever gone, with its key feature upstaged. I know there are drawbacks to any jobs, but it does sometimes seem that salaried, tenured and perked folks don't comprehend what a treasure a hard won clientele is to an entreprenour. Or maybe it's just the classic case of the old ghezer resenting the young whippersnapper telling him he is a has-been... I did not accuse Mr. Huang of being mean-spirited, as he mentions, but I think he should realize that his project could and probably will be the death of mine. My page, to continue, must grow and become more self-supporting. Personally I think he has more important things to do than duplicate and compete with what the private sector is already doing. I have long been a supporter of Dr. Huang's efforts, and I don't think he is at all aware of the several links I have to his page. After the terrible losses of my own bees from the illegal state-sponsored mosquito spraying after Hurricane Hugo, I was struggling to keep my business going, and honor my pollination committments to my growers. I arrived one morning to deliver the bees ordered by a strawberry grower, only to find that a few hours earlier, bees had been placed by Clemson Extension for a research project at no cost to the grower. Neither Clemson Extension nor the grower had notified me of this. If you have ever been in a tight spot in your business, with the banker laughing at the idea of loaning you anything, and most of your income still a couple months away, you might just realize what a treasure an early cash money contract was for me. It was actually grocery money, as well as something to cover bee bills. Not only had I lost the contract, but I was out the money I did not have, to transport them to a distant site, and then turn around and bring them home. Furthermore, Clemson Extension had contracted with another beekeeper for the bees, so I permanently lost an important client. I don't think the Clemson folks were a bit concerned; they certainly have not ever even offered an apology (though I had repeatedly offered to work with them on research projects, and had at times donated hives to their research). I think it was wrong for them to compete with an established, competent, and yet struggling business. As Yogi said, "It's deja vu, all over again." Dave Green SC USA The Pollination Home Page (Now searchable): http://pollinator.com PS: Dr. Huang, could I get a grant from MSU-GREEEN? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 17:29:49 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: T & M Weatherhead Subject: Re: Radiation damage MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen wrote > However, one anecdotal report I heard (that may actually refer to using > radioactive substances rather than electron beam) mentioned that "...after > 3 or 4 trips the wood became so punky he could push his finger through it > and nails kept falling out". If this is the case, we are wondering how many > times the equipment can go thru the electron beam and still be useable. Here in Australia we regularly use irradiation for sterilisation of boxes and combs (not brood combs) for AFB. I have not come across the problems Allen has above. The only "odd thing" is that some of the old plastic queen excluders go a pink colour after they have been through the plant. They do not seem to be weak in any way but then I put them in a corner for emergency use only. As the same irradiation process is used for a lot of medical equipment and condoms, you would hope Allen's scenario does not apply. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 12:37:42 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Dillon Subject: Re: Evolution MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Donald, Have to disagree with your comments regarding evolution! A mite or anything else that undergoes any change in its genetic base, causing a change in metabolic pathways - has moved along the path of evolution, even though it may not show external changes "Resistance" is a possible measure of fitness of the organism to the environment it finds its self. This may result in an advantage, resulting in stability in its niche. If the same change puts the organism at a disadvantage, then it suffers and the property would not usually be termed "resistance". Peter ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 17:19:57 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Full depth plastic comb MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Almost any bee supply house has plastic foundation in the deep size. Dadant supplies their Plasticell with bees wax covering or bare. George Imirie ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 01:21:36 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Green Subject: Re: Beekeeping in Baja California MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Luis Alaniz Gutierrez" > > Alguien conoce si existe un listado de especies meliferas (bee plants) > para California, o para el Sur de California? Hallo un otro listado de plantas: I find another list of plants for you: http://www.rain.org/~mkummel/stumpers/12oct01a.html Dave Green SC USA The Pollination Home Page (Now searchable): http://pollinator.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 05:43:34 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: Evolution MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <> When is evolution not evolution? At what point does non-evolution become evolution, and if it doesn't, what stops it? I've asked this question before, repeatedly, in other fora, and never got a clear answer. You're asserting that the mite will not evolve into something else. How do you know? Regards, Robert Brenchley RSBrenchley@aol.com Birmingham UK ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 07:56:59 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Seeking Hobbyist Equipment Opinions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dave Hamilton wrote: > > Just heard John Skinner from University of Tennessee give a talk about > their research into this. They found that the black plastic frames and > black foundation did almost well as wired beeswax. Another interesting aspect of plastic foundation is cell size varies between manufacturers. In the trial I ran I did not measure it but did so after I decided to shift back to foundation. It varied from 5.4 to about 5.0. With all the discussion on cell size and if smaller cell size promotes healthier colonies, comparing different manufacturers may not be taking all the variables into account. Bill Truesdell Bath, Me ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 08:19:43 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: BeeFarmer Subject: Re: Seeking Hobbyist Equipment Opinions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wood frames and plastic foundation if I had to start over. Top and bottom would be wood. No need to use embed wire in wax with plastic. All supers would be medium not a mix match of shallow and mediums. In a few years I might think about whether I should of used a mediums for broad and supers but for now I still have my back. Of course.. for comb honey... wax is the only way for me! BeeFarmer Getting Kids involved in 4H Beekeeping http://www.homestead.com/BeeKeepers/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 08:20:41 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: BeeFarmer Subject: Re: skunk cabbage MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My bees are bringing sack fulls here in Ohio... but it isn't pollen... the neighbors cattle feed and hog feed is being gathered. It is a very pale yellowish color. Since you live in the country... do you have farmers near? BeeFarmer Getting Kids involved in 4H Beekeeping http://www.homestead.com/BeeKeepers/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 14:19:01 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Vanessa de Behr Subject: Re: Seeking Hobbyist Equipment Opinions Comments: cc: Milt Lathan Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I had it to do over few years back because the hives were crushed by a fallen XVIIIth century brick wall. I got myself 3 Dadant (12 frames) deep brood boxes because it is commonly used in my area, I am used to it, and I have the opinion that a bigger brood box helps my dark-colored bees to bear with my carelessness. I had worked WBC 10 frames all-shallow boxes before, but had trouble to avoid congestion and swarming. Only wood but for a few exceptions: frames are wired (vertically), hive floors are 90% wire mesh for varroa, ventilation and spying. One-foot-tall hive stands. Inner covers made of linen cloth for ventilation. Wood slanting roofs (metal covered) with mesh-covered orifices for ventilation. Metal frame spacers. I expect the hives to last as long as me (I am 30) and I think that plastic would get old and brittle before me. I also find easier to repair wood than plastic. I have deep brood frames and shallow supers out of habit. The tangential extractor can handle both, though since varroa I avoid to extract treated frames. Vanessa Belgium (Europe); 5°E and 50°N; rainy winters; rainy summers ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 05:41:30 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: dan hendricks Subject: Limiting pollen collection MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I keep reading posts about bees deliberatly failing to collect pollen when they "think" the hive has enough. I wish someone would teach this to my bees (in Seattle). I have to use traps to keep them from plugging out the hive. How would any hive collect enough for next winter/spring brood feeding if they modulated their collection to current needs? I think if there is one dominant characteristic of A.m.m. it is that of no restraint in foraging. If available, they will collect more nectar and more pollen than they could conceivably need. In the summertime, they can't tell whether they in Seattle or Alaska. PS. Of course, foragers don't store nectar themselves, they pass it on to the house bees. Dan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games http://sports.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 08:35:57 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Mark Payton Subject: Re: Evolution In-Reply-To: <200202261214.g1QCEZla012675@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 12:37 PM 2/26/2002 +0000, Peter wrote: >Have to disagree with your comments regarding evolution! >A mite or anything else that undergoes any change in its genetic base, >causing a change in metabolic pathways - has moved along the path of >evolution, even though it may not show external changes At the risk of fanning flames in a touchy area of science, I'd have to agree that minor adaptive changes within a species are indeed evolution--the only evolution that is proven. Speciation caused by such changes is merely a theoretical explanation of the diversity which we see today. Such resistance development as mites are showing is a crucial part of the preservation of a species. Unfortunately, we can often aid the development of resistance through our ignorance, hubris and carelessness, as we regularly have done through misuse of antibiotics on human and domestic animal pests. Mark Payton ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 09:10:29 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Evolution MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Robert Brenchley wrote: > > < But this is not evolution, it is still a mite. > Donald>> > > When is evolution not evolution? At what point does non-evolution become > evolution, and if it doesn't, what stops it? Maybe the problem is definitions. What is happening to the mites is no different than any organisms response to environmental pressures. Humans do not evolve- become a new distinct species- because some have genetic differences and respond differently to disease. We are still Homo Sapiens. The mite does not become Varroa Apistanis but stays VD. Granted, all living things evolve or disappear, but the fundamental step of evolving to a new distinct species involves much more than having tolerance or not to a pesticide/disease. This is especially true since what I have seen indicates VD will revert to its less tolerant but apparently more adaptable state when pesticide pressures are removed. Evolution generally apples to a more stable situation than this. Bill Truesdell Bath, Me ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 09:04:50 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Natural Comb Cell size, Reaumur Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Adrian Wenner submitted: >"The depth of the brood-cells of drones and working Bees is about half >an inch; their diameter is more exact, that of the drone-cells being three >lines and one third, that of the workers two lines and three fifths. >These, says Reaumer, are the invariable dimensions of all the cells, that >ever were, or ever will be made." From "Manual of the Apiary", by A. J. Cook, published in 1880: >Contemporary with Linnaeus and DeGeer was Reaumur, of France, whose experiments and researches are of special interest to apiarists. Perhaps no entomologist has done more to reveal the natural history of bees. Especially to be commended are his method of experimenting, his patience in investigation, the elegance and felicity of his word pictures, and, above all, *his devotion to truth.* [ italics for emphasis in the original ] > >The diameter of the worker cells averages a little more than one fifth of an inch -- Reaumur says two and three-fifths lines or twelfths of an inch. But this distinguished author was quite wrong when he said: "These are invariable dimensions of all cells that ever were or ever will be made." > >The most promising use of foundation is in the brood chamber. It is astonishing to see how rapidly the bees will extend the cells, and how readily the queen will stock them with eggs if of the right size, five cells to the inch. Comment: If you study Reaumur's statement, you will realize several things can be learned. One is a high level of precision. He says the cell is .217 inches wide, two and one sixth inches per ten, or 55.04 mm per ten cells. He also indicates that he has looked at a lot of cells and finds them very consistent ("These are invariable dimensions"). Well, we know he didn't look at enough because we know they *do* vary. By the way, Reaumur did his work around 1740, before foundation was even invented. Sometime in the late 1800s, foundation was invented and various cell sizes were tried. Obviously, bees construct a range of sizes and will accept a range of sizes. Doolittle writes: "We tried to improve upon the bee as to make them take cells 4 1/2 to the inch [5.64 mm], but we had to give it up, and believe God knew best when he taught them five was right." From this we have the upper limit that bees will accept. The range that I found measuring three old mills was 5.08 to 5.4 mm per cell. Now accept for a moment that it doesn't matter what size they are, as long as they are in this range. What size would you pick? Some might pick 5 cells to the inch, because this is a nice neat figure (I suspect this is what Cook has done). Some might prefer the larger size because you could get slightly bigger bees (this was thought of as a good thing at the time). Further, as we all know, the cells become smaller with age so starting out with cells at the large end of the range would possibly increase the useful life of the comb. Now, I have no way of knowing what size cells were before foundation was used. Reaumur says 5.4, Cooke says 5.1. But I have yet to see any proof that it makes any difference at all, as long as they are within the range of 5 to 5.5 mm. Reports from Africa are that mites can reproduce in 4.9 cells. They reproduce in Apis cerana comb (around 4.9 mm) but cerana has ways of controlling them. As far as them reproducing less in old comb, we bought 15 hives from a beekeeper last spring which had quite old comb in the brood nest. These received no chemical treatments (we were running a test of screened bottom boards). By the end of September, the had all fizzled out due to mites. PB ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 07:20:29 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: skunk cabbage MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > I differ with you about skunk cabbage. We have a lot of it down by > the creek and it isn't up yet. >From http://hometown.aol.com/ag2web/flowers/fl_p1.htm "Skunk cabbage (Symplocarpus feotidus) is typically a very early spring blossom... In wet places near streams, the fleshy, dark red hoods push up, barely noticeable among the dead leaves. The actual blossoms are sheltered inside. Foul-smelling when stepped on or broken, skunk cabbage is pollinated by early bees and by flies. Recent research shows that parts of the plant generate heat as they come up, perhaps helping the plant to grow through snow or to attract its pollinators. A few weeks after the blossoms appear, the familiar green leaves unfurl and grow large." Skunk cabbage is a safe bet for the earliest pollen bees find in the spring. It's not up in my parts (upstate New York) but is a likely candidate for the area from whence the original query came. Aaron Morris - thinking think twice before challenging the master! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 09:14:38 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Evolution In-Reply-To: <3C7B8195.AD1968DA@club-internet.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Greetings, As we all know, the moderators do not want us to get involved in a heated discussion on evolution. But before we do ; ) You should examine the very notion of species and how modern taxonomists regard this. A species is *not* a natural division, but one that is arrived at provisionally by taxonomists. This is very gray territory. My best, PB ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 09:27:35 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Zachary Huang Subject: Re: # of Pollination Sites Comments: To: Dave Green On Tue, 26 Feb 2002 03:42:21 -0500, Dave Green wrote: >government and grant money, coupled with the latest technology available in >a large university (that you can't afford), and give this equipment away to >any and all. Would this be fair? Oh, yes, he would generously establish a >link to your page, though. I am NOT giving my database away. The service will be free of course. Basically you are saying it is wrong for me to provide a free service because it endangers yours which you INTEND to make a profit (which is not happening yet). I do not know who could be more generous: I said if a lot of people objected, I could discontinue and give you what I have -- I see the possibility decreasing since you are merely complaining and not really interested in that. Upon approval from the university folks, and if I insist, I am sure they do not mind me "selling" it for what I have spent on it (so the university did not lose anything). I feel your pain (at the prospect of losing your livelihood) and sympathize with you, however instead of trying to make a friend you are trying to make an enemy here. I have made business attempt at internet before starting at MSU, believe me, I see very little hope of making a living just to have a search engine on bees. I have lost more than a new car on my stint there. If your criticism is reasonable, then Bayer should not have developed Checkmite+ because Apistan was working so well 3 years ago. And John Hogg should not have developed the half comb because the ross-rounds are already working well. >I am really disappointed to hear your take on this, as a simple Ford and >Chevy competition. It is much more like a government takeover of GM. Gee, I am not intending to take over anything! I even offered the possibility of giving you WHAT I HAVE in my last message. First you said I am giving away things free, now taking over. These two analogies are totally at odds with each other! >It hurts to have Dr. Huang saunter in with nothing but criticism for my >efforts, though he is obviously not very familiar with them, I never criticised you or your efforts. I was merely saying the old styled list has its drawbacks. I used one beekeeper as an example of how tedious it is to maintain a current list. By the way, please remove Mary Folkema from the MI list. She is now over 70 and no longer offers pollination services as she tells me every time we meet. Of course I saw places for improvement that is why I started mine. If I thought yours is working perfectly well and I start another one, then you can say I am competing. I imagine I could have asked you first, of course all along I thought you were doing pollination service and the web was not where you intended to go. >and basically tell me to get lost; he's taking over. where and when I told you to "get lost" and I am "taking over"???? please support your opinion with a quote, please. It is amazing how much animosity you can see from my quite neutral (if not warm :) comments. my last offer: SO THE BUTTOM LINE IS, if most of people think this is done with bad faith, I can discontinue the project since it has not been officially launched yet (or simply turn the programs to you!). so far I counted 4:0 (not counting Zach and Dave), and 9:0 if I count those who voted with their keyboards :) >It hurts to see him continue >criticisms on his database intro that have been refuted here on this list. I have trouble understanding the above sentence. You never answered me on this: when was your search engine started? My project was started more than a year ago (the idea was formed in 98). I think (I might be wrong, but let me know if I am!) google.com did not even offer private local search engines one year ago. >long been a supporter of Dr. Huang's efforts, and I don't think he is at >all aware of the several links I have to his page. Yes, I am aware of the links (if by support you mean that) and thank you. and I had linked your page to mine on day one. >PS: Dr. Huang, could I get a grant from MSU-GREEEN? You can always ask! although I think these are internal MSU money. I think private industries can apply from USDA, NSF (both have SBIR and STTR that is free money to develop private business) and many foundations, as long as you have good ideas and can implement them. You would be surprised at how small a grant I actually got (and asked) for this project. And Dave, you are right, I have spent less than 5% of my time on this project and it is no big deal for me, as I said. After all, I will not get a profit from it. I am merely trying to help the beekeepers. Dave, my offer is still on the table: it is much easier for me to hand over now than later. I can enquire with university authorities about the possibility IF YOU ARE INTERESTED. You will need to have a PC with win95+ access+personal web server, or an NT with IIS. You will need to have direct access to the computer (i.e. the server is local rather than in someone else's office) if you need to do any maintaince directly on the access database (downloading might become difficult after you have 10,000 records). Zachary Huang http://beebase.cyberbee.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 09:59:11 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Judy and Dave Subject: Re: skunk cabbage(and other things) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit BeeFarmer wrote: > My bees are bringing sack fulls here in Ohio... but it isn't pollen... the > neighbors cattle feed and hog feed is being gathered. Our bees have been actively gathering pollen for over a month now. Skunk cabbage, maple and crocus and henbit. Our spring report is 11 out of 11 hives are strong. Unfortunately, many of our local club's beekeepers (now I understand why George calls some beehavers) have lost many hives. Actually, those that lost bees (some all of their hives) may be relying upon the advice of a beehaver. Someone had heard someone, somewhere state that tracheal mites are no longer a big problem. So many of these gentlemen did not treat with menthol last year. We are currently in the midst of an ongoing renovation. Dave set up his cut-off saw outside the back door so he wouldn't have to trek up and down basement steps for each board. The first day there were a couple bees hanging around and we thought nothing of it because they have been actively checking out anything that moves or doesn't move. Second day, more bees. Now on this 6th day, bees are all over the table and the saw. They are packing the pine sawdust into their little pollen baskets. Not just one or two bees, but at least 20 at a time are on the saw and the others are going to and fro or unloading. If they use this to patch all the cracks in their respective hives, well, maybe we won't need to replace any equipment this year. Judy in Kentucky, USA ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 10:33:34 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Leigh Subject: Re: skunk cabbage In-Reply-To: <200202261323.g1QDIbmK013772@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" We're in the middle of a forest. Mostly tulip poplar and oak. Besides us, (and we grow vegetables for a living) the nearest farm is about 2 miles as the bee flies. Here, they are 'working' the chicken feed and they really like something in the scratch, but I imagine there is a variety of tree out there (no willows) that with this strange, strange weather (its going to hit 70 today), is putting out some pollen. I hear, closer to the city were George is, the daffodils are starting to flower. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 07:39:38 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Adrian Wenner Subject: Bee consciousness Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Between Dec. 96 and Mar. 98, as well as between Jan. 00 and April 01, we had an extensive exchange about honey bee consciousness on BEE-L. Are we about to have a repeat on that topic? (Too much mail?) Adrian Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home phone) 967 Garcia Road (805) 893-8062 (UCSB FAX) Santa Barbara, CA 93106 [http://www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/index.htm] ***************************************************** * * "We not only believe what we see: * to some extent we see what we believe." * * Richard Gregory (1970) * ***************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 10:51:04 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Evolution MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Borst wrote: > You should examine the very notion of species and how modern taxonomists regard this. A species is *not* a natural division, but one that is arrived at provisionally by taxonomists. This is very gray territory. Agree. Which is why it is prone to argument- since it all hinges on who does the defining. Sort of the same with consciousness. Both are hard lines to draw since they can be looked at as continuums. Taxonomists seem to like externals more than internals. Whoever makes the rules/draws the line wins the argument. But generally, with species, it is a bit more than pesticide resistance, which is where this part of the thread started. Especially if it is not a stable state for the mite. A Christian biology professor at Brown wrote Finding Darwin's God, an excellent discussion on the subject of faith/religion and evolution- here is a link http://www.brown.edu/Administration/Brown_Alumni_Magazine/00/11-99/features/darwin.html Bill Truesdell Bath, Me ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 10:59:38 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: skunk cabbage MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Leigh wrote: > , but I imagine > there is a variety of tree out there (no willows) that with this > strange, strange weather (its going to hit 70 today), is putting out > some pollen. I hear, closer to the city were George is, the > daffodils are starting to flower. Pussy Willow are a classic early pollen source and are small bushes so generally unseen. It comes in - along with Poplar - before the daffodils bloom here in Maine. It is surprising where so much early pollen comes from. Bill Truesdell Bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 08:42:33 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: A Great Thesis Topic for Someone. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > With all the discussion on cell size and if smaller cell size promotes > healthier colonies, comparing different manufacturers may not be taking > all the variables into account. One thing that mystifies me about this whole cell size business is this: During the whole time that foundation sizes have been ranging in size, has *no one* done a side-by-side test to determine if bees do better on one size than another? Did they just keep on making foundation slightly larger from time to time (starting around 5.1mm) without scientifically comparing the effects on the bees and proving a benefit? I'd sure like to see someone open-minded, knowledgeable, critical and thorough present a concise and well-referenced history of the transition from natural comb to our current almost universal use of foundation. I realise that there are bits and pieces of the story available here and there, but they are interspersed with anecdote and speculation -- hardly scientific or rigorous (IMO, anyhow) I really think that this research would be a great thesis for someone, and very meaningful to beekeepers and scientists alike. There are even implications outside the beekeeping group. Any grad students out there? allen http://www.internode.net/honeybee/diary/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 12:41:01 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: A Great Thesis Topic for Someone. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen Dick wrote: > > > With all the discussion on cell size and if smaller cell size promotes > > healthier colonies, comparing different manufacturers may not be taking > > all the variables into account. > > One thing that mystifies me about this whole cell size business is this: > > During the whole time that foundation sizes have been ranging in size, has > *no one* done a side-by-side test to determine if bees do better on one size > than another? Before Varroa there was no good reason to do so. Plus, back then it was more set and forget. A lot has changed with the mites. And the whole issue on cell size is fairly recent. But I agree that independent research on cell size is needed by people who can control, within reason, the variables. And, Allen, thanks for the excellent questions on FGMO. Bill Truesdell Bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 12:40:34 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Zachary Huang Subject: Re: skunk cabbage Yellow pollen: Yesterday it was about 50s here in East Lansing, MI and I tried to take bee pictures. I forgot my camera at home and by the time I went to the large patch of winter aconites (3 pm), which had pretty yellow flowers, all bees were gone. Another prof, George Ayers (we always compete for best bee pictures :) said he was there at 2 pm and took 15 bee pictures. I IMAGINE the bees were going for their pollen, since I did not see any of them. I managed to get 2 ants and 1 fly on flowers. will post it in a few days if any of you are interested! Today we will be getting >10 inches of white stuff! the poor bees must be pretty confused... Zachary Huang http://www.cyberbee.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 09:07:42 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: Full depth plastic comb MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi George & All, > Almost any bee supply house has plastic foundation in the deep size. Dadant > supplies their Plasticell with bees wax covering or bare. > I can not speak for Steve, but I do believe that Steve was referring to plastic comb and not plastic foundation. Keith Malone Chugiak, Alaska USA starrier@yahoo.com http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney Check out current weather in my area and 5 day forecast; http://www.wx.com/myweather.cfm?ZIP=99654 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 11:50:32 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: A Great Thesis Topic for Someone. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > During the whole time that foundation sizes have been ranging in size, has > > *no one* done a side-by-side test to determine if bees do better on one size > > than another? > > Before Varroa there was no good reason to do so. Plus, back then it was > more set and forget. A lot has changed with the mites. And the whole > issue on cell size is fairly recent. True, the whole question of regarding *smaller* cell size in a favourable light is fairly recent, but the whole question of cell size has been constantly under consideration -- apparently with the never challenged assumption that bigger is better. For honey extraction, bigger is better, since the honey is easier to get out, but did people actually seriously evaluate the effect on the bees when successively larger and larger cells were introduced into the brood area? Maybe they did? One would think so. If not, how could something so obvious be ignored? All the time that people were trying to increase the size of bees, did nobody test to see if there was and actual improvement -- or even prove there was no adverse effect on production or wintering from having fewer cells per area? Was the whole thing based on theory and never tested? I have heard talk of testing to see if frame spacing matters, but not of tests to prove new foundation designs worked as well as older ones. Apparently manufacturers just trot out new foundation to suit what they perceive to be a need and never test. And apparently the labs never thought to check. As a heads-up to those using medium depth frames, Pierco's new medium depth frames use a larger cell size than all their other products -- more in line with their competitors. If used for extracting, that may be good. If for brood, then just be aware. allen http://www.internode.net/honeybee/diary/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 13:31:32 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jerry J Bromenshenk Subject: Hives made from treated wood Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi all: Please remember that anything intended to kill insects that chew on wood may also present a hazard to bees and your products. If you have been using treated wood, and haven't had a problem, that's fortunate. What the effects, if any, be would vary with the chemical, age of the wood, weathering, etc. What I can say for certain is that most of these chemicals will off-gas to some degree, and those fumes we can detect in the air inside the hive. Finally, there is a new book on the market that deals with bees and chemicals, ranging from pesticides to radioactive materials. Title: Honey Bees: Estimating the Environmental Impact of Chemicals, Taylor and Francis books. www.toxicologyarena.com Although I co-authored 2 chapters, I don't get any royalties - so I offer this for your information. I haven't seen it yet, but one chapter deals with the effects of imidacloprid on bee memory. Overall, the book should contain information that has not been previously available - the works are either very recent or so voluminous that no journal wanted to publish them. Total book is over 300 pages. Cheers ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 15:17:18 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: 'Pat Henderson' Subject: Honeybee Laboratory Closures Comments: To: James.Walsh@mail.house.gov, Jack.Kingston@mail.house.gov, George.Nethercutt@mail.house.gov, Tom.Latham@mail.house.gov, Jo.Ann.Emerson@mail.house.gov, Virgil.Goode@mail.house.gov, Ray.LaHood@mail.house.gov, Marcy.Kaptur@mail.house.gov, Rosa.DeLauro@mail.house.gov, Maurice.Hinchey@mail.house.gov, Sam.Farr@mail.house.gov, Allen.Boyd@mail.house.gov, Tom.Harkin@mail.senate.gov, Byron.Dorgan@mail.senate.gov, Dianne.Feinstein@mail.senate.gov, Richard.Durbin@mail.senate.gov, Tim.Johnson@mail.senate.gov, Patty.Murray@mail.senate.gov, Thad.Chchran@mail.senate.gov, Arlen.Specter@mail.senate.gov, Christopher.Bond@mail.senate.gov, Mitch.McConnell@mail.senate.gov, Conrad.Burns@mail.senate.gov, Larry.Craig@mail.senate.gov Comments: cc: AdamsHonCo@aol.com, roygalbin@att.com, alchemy@blast.net, ellen18@gte.net, bee@epix.net, Janet.M.Bakonyi@chase.com, AGPBALA@ag.state.nj.us, beluch@webstand.net, toothefairie@att.net, sbrodhecker@compuserve.com, dbrooks@icdc.com, BURKARD9@aol.com, TCavallaro@aol.com, MChan79865@aol.com, bkeepers@mail.ru, Mjhhclay@aol.com, chc2@ra.msstate.edu, jdallon@ramapo.edu, tony@tms.net, Kebekha@aol.com, JDunleavy@aol.com, feldlaum@ba.ars.usda.gov, Adam@wingsandthings.com, kim@airoot.com, sfrank@agr084r1.state.il.us, mhg3@cornell.edu, JOEHANSEN8@aol.com, HARVHONEY@aol.com, IZRBLU84@aol.com, sharose@ptd.net, RJANNEY@pipeline.com, ed.kalendek@cccllc.com, jakatz@ix.netcom.com, mkatz@morristo.gannett.com, beeman63@juno.com, ocpe@aesop.rutgers.edu, cadapult@jersey.net, kurela@cybernex.net, BOZZOBRAIN@aol.com, Beehealthy@aol.com, Klutch.cargo@verizon.net, A357Mike@aol.com, slorah@state.de.us, maarecworkinggroup@ag2admin34.cas.psu.edu, Massimo4@aol.com, RAMBeeman@aol.com, MartinS@diebold.com, Mathez@access.net, tlmccor@ccia.com, bac4652@yahoo.com, northwarrenapiary@yahoo.com, mcgarryt@westelcom.com, goldenraintree@prodigy.net, jwmorse@prodigy.net, nasr@aesop.rutgers.edu, JohnN48760@aol.com, knovsak@bellatlantic.net, ROMAN.OSADCA@roche.com, foxhill2@tellurian.com, lynnearch@juno.com, polavarapu@aesop.rutgers.edu, jimp562@comcast.net, npuvel@comcast.net, mrpatr@comcast.net, mroot@princeton.edu, Credence22@aol.com, kandmfarm@hotmail.com, EllisFSchweitzer@compuserve.com, beelady@optonline.net, beeman@na2k.net, jsteinhaue@state.pa.us, HONEYDEER1@msn.com, dv23@cornell.edu, dwasitowski@pershing.com, Beebuzzboys@aol.com, metricom@worldnet.att.net, honeybees100@yahoo.com, CochranKen@netzero.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit NEW JERSEY BEEKEEPER’S ASSOCIATION Pat Henderson ~ Secretary/Treasurer 62 Fernview Road Morris Plains, NJ 07950-1539 973/644-9024 (Phone & Fax) PatHender@aol.com February 26, 2002 House and Senate Appropriations Committee Subcommittee on Agriculture, Rural Development, Food and Drug Administration, and Related Agencies Dear House and Senate Members: On behalf of the New Jersey Beekeepers, MAAREC (Mid-Atlantic Apiculture Research and Extension Consortium for Maryland, Delaware, Pennsylvania, West Virginia, and New Jersey), and all the farmers influenced by honeybees, we protest the proposed cuts in United States Department of Agriculture - Agricultural Research Services (USDA-ARS) Honeybee Research in the President's 2003 budget. We strongly urge you to restore these proposed reductions in funds, infrastructure and personnel immediately. Failure to restore the current level of funding will have disastrous consequences for honeybee research, the beekeeping industry, all of pollination-dependent agricultural industry, and the food consumer. The direct benefit of honeybee pollination to major agricultural crops has been valued at more than $14 billion annually. The proposed total base program reductions, though partially offset by increased spending for new programs, total only $15 million, and yet honeybee research suffers 20% of total base program reductions. This reduction seems inequitable for a research program that comprises ~.057% of the ARS budget. Maybe on the surface it would make sense to cut the honeybee research laboratories from 4 to 1; on the assumption the 4 laboratories performed duplicate functions. This is far from true. Each facility focuses on different elements within the honeybee species. Honeybee behavior varies greatly by climate and research conducted at one location is not necessarily applicable to another. Most importantly, USDA-ARS Weslaco is located in an area colonized by Africanized honeybees (AHB). While it is imperative to have a bee research station in an Africanized area to study this important model of invasive species colonization and resultant impact, the presence of AHB in Weslaco makes other important ARS research impossible to conduct in Weslaco, precisely because it is an Africanized area. Please intervene on behalf of our industry, the pollination-dependent agricultural industry, and the food consumer to restore the proposed cuts in honeybee research. Exotic parasitic mites, Africanized bees, and other new pests and pathogens pose a serious threat to the viability and productivity of honeybees, the plants they pollinate and all those that depend, directly or indirectly, upon bees and the products and services they provide. Substantial economic harm will be imposed upon everyone if these proposed reductions are implemented. Respectfully, Pat Henderson Chairman, New Jersey Beekeepers Research Committee Chairman, MAAREC ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 16:12:27 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tim Sullivan Subject: Hive body joints MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have been at this hobby for about 5 years and initially ordered material from a few different suppliers to try them out. About half of my medium supers ( I run all mediums including 3 for the brood chamber) are the traditional box joint and half are the rabbet joint from Brushy mountain. Witout a doubt in my mind the rabbet joined supers are holding up much better. The box joint corners are all peeling paint and the rabbet joined are not. Once the paint started to peel and all that end grain exposed on the box joints the peeling really speeded up. I believe in the years to come the rabbet joint supers will outlast the box joints by several years. And by the way, although the tree medium brood chambers are about equal in volume to two deeps I think I'll be overwintering in 4 mediums from now on - this warm winter in new England has seen the usuall winter stores go too quickly. Timsul ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 15:27:16 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: Seeking Hobbyist Equipment Opinions In-Reply-To: <200202261320.g1QDIalq013771@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 08:19 AM 2/26/02 -0500, you wrote: >Wood frames and plastic foundation if I had to start over. Top and bottom >would be wood. No need to use embed wire in wax with plastic. I second this. Wood frames and plastic foundation. Easy to install, no failures in the extractor, holds up to heat well, easy to clean up when the bees build wild comb, no problems with them chewing up the foundation if you add supers too early, etc. I wouldn't go with plastic bodies and frames due to the warping and difficulty in repairing them. I'd also be really tempted myself to go all mediums, for supers and hive bodies. I intend on trying a couple medium hives this year to see how they compare. -Tim ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 16:58:25 -0500 Reply-To: mpalmer@together.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: michael palmer Subject: Re: Hive body joints MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tim Sullivan wrote: The box joint corners are all peeling paint and the rabbet joined arenot. Once the paint started to peel and all that end grain exposed on the box joints the peeling really speeded up. I believe that box joints have more spaces to hold water, and so will rot faster. Surely box joints art stronger, but how many of us throw our equipment around? Mike ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 19:41:13 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 24 Feb 2002 to 25 Feb 2002 (#2002-56) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 26/02/02 05:05:23 GMT Standard Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU writes: << Subject: Seeking Hobbyist Equipment Opinions Dear Experienced Hobbyist, IF YOU HAD IT TO DO OVER, would you invest in wood or plastic frames? >> If I had to do it all over I wouldn't use frames at all in the supers, maybe not in the brood box either. I would also dispense with the extractor and all that goes with it. I would use top bars and concentrate on cut comb honey which is so much more profitable than run, the small bits would go into jars as chunk honey surrounded by the drainings and honey pressed from the trimings. This also sells well. You may not get the same volume of honey but the savings on space and equipment and the higher prices obtainable for honey comb should compensate. Chris ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 19:41:05 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Dave Cushman Catching Up MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 26/02/02 05:05:23 GMT Standard Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU writes: << Only to a certain extent... I see bee size an a number of incremental, quantum like, states that require an impetus to shift from one to another. In the absence of pressure for change the bees soldier on with what body size they find themselves in. >> Dave, Will not the natural environment in which the bees exist in our hypothetical village provide the impetus for quantum creep? This, of course, is on the assumption that Dee is right and that currently bees are unnaturally larger than intended and are disadvantaged by this. We can see for ourselves that bees naturally have a range of cell sizes in a comb. The mechanism for reduction, if it exists, could simply be that the colonies with more smaller cells prosper comparatively and produce more/ earlier drones and swarms. Congratulations on the fecundity of your family. I think you said you live in a small house. Maybe the same applies to humans. Chris ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 19:41:03 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 24 Feb 2002 to 25 Feb 2002 (#2002-56) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 26/02/02 05:05:23 GMT Standard Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU writes: << Of course, it is difficult to measure the actual dimensions. One way is to first measure the depth with an accurate depth gauge such as a dial indicator. The volume of the cell can be measured by filling it with water from a burette. The cross sectional area can then be found by calculation. >> Or you can make Plaster of Paris casts from the cells and measure the plugs. See Dave Cushman's web site for a dimensioned diagram of one of mine. Chris ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 19:41:55 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Keith B. Forsyth" Subject: Honey Bees:Estimating the Environmental Impact of Chemicals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit F.Y.I. : Barnes and Noble list the price of this text at 128 $ US with availability in May 2002. This description that follows is taken from the Taylor & Francis website http://www.books.tandf.co.uk/ and also lists the 2 chapters co-authored by Dr. Bromenshenk and the chapter about imidacloprid . "Honey Bees:Estimating the Environmental Impact of Chemicals provides the reader with an up-to-date account of the different strategies currently in use or in development for assessing the ecotoxicity of xenobiotics against these social insects, which play a key role in both ecology and agriculture. In addition to the classical acute laboratory test, semi-field cage tests and full field funnel tests, new tests based mainly on behavioral responses are for the first time clearly described. Information on the direct and indirect effects on honey bees of radionuclides, heavy metals, pesticides, semi-volatile organic compounds and genetically modified plants is also presented." Effects of Imidacloprid on the Neural Processes of Memory in Honey Bees C. Armengaud, M. Lambin and M. Gauthier The Role of Honey Bees in Environmental Monitoring in Croatia D. Barisic, J.J. Bromenshenk, N. Kezic and A. Vertacnik Volatile and Semi-volatile Organic Compounds in Beehive Atmospheres G.C. Smith, J.J. Bromenshenk, D.C. Jones and G.H. Alnasser ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 19:24:37 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: HarrisonRW@AOL.COM Subject: Norman Farmer 1926-2002 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It is with sadness that I report the death of Norman Farmer Sr., Friday, February 22, at his home in Bristol, Connecticut. Norman was the largest commercial beekeeper in Connecticut. For the past forty years having owned and operated Honeycomb Apiaries in Bristol. He was active member of the Connecticut Beekeepers Association and a good friend and mentor to the beekeepers that knew him. Funeral services will be held Saturday, March 2, at 11a.m. at the United Pentecostal Church in Bristol. Calling hours will be held on Friday, 6-9 p.m. at the O'Brien Funeral Home, 24 Lincoln Ave. Forestville, CT. Burial with military honors, will be held March 6, at 11 a.m. at the Pecedale Cemetery in Bristol. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 17:57:56 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Coleene Davidson Subject: FOOD -TV MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable HI ALL, JUST WONDERING IF ANYONE ELSE SAW THE FOOD-TV PROGRAM "EMMERIL LIVE" = LAST NIGHT(02/25/02). THE ENTIRE SHOW WAS HONEY ORIENTED. THERE WAS A = LOT OF TALK ON VARIETAL HONEYS, THE FLAVOR DIFFERENCE DUE TO FLOWER = SOURCES AND INFORMATION THE DIFFERENT VARIETIES FROM THE U.S. AS WELL = AS OTHER COUNTRIES-ITALIAN, THI AND GREEK ARE THOSE I RECALL AT THE = MOMENT. =20 ONE OF THE COMMENTS MADE BY E. L. WAS THAT THE PRICE OF HONEY IS TOO LOW = WHEN ONE CONSIDERS WHAT IT TAKES TO PRODUCE A POUND. IT WAS A GOOD = SHOW. =20 SEE IT IF YOU CAN, AND THE RECIPES ARE AVAILABLE ON FOODTV.COM. COLEENE ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 18:53:22 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Natural Comb Cell size MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello All, As the discussion on cell size winds down (again) I would like to = comment. Before I start let me say I have the utmost respect Dee and Ed = Lusby and their efforts. Because Bee-L is a discussion I am only pointing out the differences of = two IPM methods being put before U.S. beekeepers this spring. When the cell size debate first started on Bee-L I said the = downsizing process proposed by the 49 ERs was simply to expensive and = labor intensive for the larger beekeeper. I said the best solution would = be through the use of queens Russian or SMR. =20 I believe the Russian strain could be improved by selection of the SMR = trait in the Russian line. I personally did not use the Russian queens = for a couple reasons which I have stated before on Bee-L but other = beekeepers are reporting varroa tolerance with the Russians and I wish = those beekeepers continued success. My bees are doing great on 5.1 to 5.2mm foundation. I love the plastic = foundation and can scrape down the wax and let the bees redraw if I want = new wax. Too many drone cells on a frame ? Just scrape down to plastic = and let the bees redraw as worker cells.=20 Which frames would you rather clean up with wax moth damage. 4.9mm wired wax or plastic?=20 Dr. Harbo said we would see the SMR trait in our hives in eight weeks. = I am happy to report Dr. Harbo was correct. I believe we have got around 150 hives with open mated queens of the = red and yellow line. We received our breeder queens on July the fourth = 2001. Raised queens and installed in hives. In late September the SMR = queen headed hives had One fourth and lower mite counts than the hives = which we used brood from to make the hives up.=20 All hives were treated the same. Approx. 150 test SMR hives and hundreds of controls. Dee and I have both succeeded in reaching a similar level of varroa = control although I believe SMR hives will carry a lower level of varroa = than any other method and base my opinion on the past seven years of = research by Dr. Harbo and Dr. Harris. Which IPM method beekeepers use is their own choice.=20 1. Order a SMR open mated queen and requeen and get varroa control in = eight weeks. OR 2. convert all hives to 4.9mm. foundation in two downsizes. Sincerely, Bob Harrison .=20 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 16:51:49 -0800 Reply-To: beekeeper82@yahoo.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Carm Subject: Box, Lap, Butt/Biscuit Joint In-Reply-To: <200202260440.g1Q389pY000547@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi there, I have gotten quite a few replies to some questions I sent out a few days ago, which are proving very helpful. I am also enjoying the discussion on glue for hive contruction. I now have some more questions and comments. First, on Box joint... Most people agree that they are a strong joint, but it has been mentioned a couple time that they have more end grains exposed that a lap joint, this leading to quicker rot if the paint comes off due to wear. As well they are a bit harder to build yourself. Then there is the lap joint, easy to construct, perhaps not quite as strong as the box joint, but maybe so if glued with the right glue, and screwed or nailed properly. A favored joint amongst those who build their own equipment, and do not want to have to fiddle around with the Dado and caliper much. And then there is the Butt/biscuit joint that a couple people have suggested, though I am not sure if that was through bee-l or to me personally. Combining the simplicity of simply cutting the boards to the proper length, and then using the strength of the bisuit. But as my brother is pointing out as I type, it maybe be hard to get that accurate due to the fact that the boards are being joined at right angles, and not side to side as what biscuit jointers are commonly used for. Origanally I was asking about using the Kreg joint for the joint above as well, but I think that that is not exactly the best thing to do now that I have read all the reply's. So now that I have typed all that I am almost forgetting what my original question was. I think I was kinda wanting to know if there was any other points for or against the methods above that should be added. Please let me know, and I will summerize them as well if I receive some off the list. Another thing, does anyone have a picture of the interlocking corner joint. I have drawn one here, but I am sure it is not like I saw it once, but I cannot figure it out. If anyone know what it looks like, please try to draw it and send it, or at least discribe it? Well, I think I am about typed out. I know I forget something, I will have to read through the posts that I got earlier to see if I can remember. Thanks for all the input. Regards, Carm __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Greetings - Send FREE e-cards for every occasion! http://greetings.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 20:19:05 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Denise Hubler Subject: Hobbyist Equipment Opinions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've never tried plastic foundations or frames so I can't speak about what has been best for me in that arena. However, Hind sight is 20/20. If I had to do it over again, (I have 12 hives) I would use 3 mediums instead of 2 deeps for brood chambers. After 3 steroid injections in my back, I'm finally recovering from a back injury I got from foolishly trying to lift a brood box by myself last fall. If I had the money I would also seriously consider purchasing polystyrene hives. I'm still considering trying at least one to see how it compares, weight wise and honey production wise. I've only been keeping bees for 6 years, I'm 42. Being female it's not easy doing all that lifting without help. I'd like to be able to keep bees until I'm ....well, dead. Any ideas on lifting hives by yourself would be appreciated. Denise Hubler Luna Apiaries Kentucky ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 18:29:01 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Box, Lap, Butt/Biscuit Joint Comments: To: beekeeper82@YAHOO.COM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Another thing, does anyone have a picture of the interlocking corner joint. http://fp.keystage3dt.f9.co.uk/wood_joints.htm comes up right off when I type "interlocking corner joint" into the Google search and specify the image search option. Both beekeeper box corner joints are well illustrated there. The terminology can vary a bit. On this site, "Rebate Joint" and the "Comb Joint" are the names used for the two most common bee box corners. allen http://www.internode.net/honeybee/diary/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 20:53:00 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Michael Housel Subject: Radiation damage on Royal Jelly shipments MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Can anyone answer shipping problems on the royal jelly and the radiation in the postal systems? Will it hurt the graafting in queen cells? Michael Housel Orlandobee ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 21:50:12 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Carmenie Stemmler Subject: Air Staplers and Nailers Hi all, I am assuming at the commercial beekeepers do not bang all equipment together using nails and the good old hammer. What do you use? What do you use nails for and what size, and what do you use staples for and what size? For those of you who use screws for boxes and things, what size and how many do you use? I would appreciate any input. A couple beekeepers I know use 1/4" crown by 1 1/4" length staples to put frames together, and I am thinking to do the same. Is there any advantage of these over the nails? Thanks in advance for the comments, Regards, Carm ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 21:43:37 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Carmenie Stemmler Subject: Air Nailing Supers Hi there, Is the Tim that wrote the message below still on the list? I tired to email him at the address that he wrote that from, but the message was returned. If so, I was wondering what size of staples you used for the boxes, and how is worked out? Regards, Carm I echo Bill's comments. We do the same. This matter of schlepability has become particularly important as we venture into our planned major expansion from 8 to 60 hives this spring. The venture is expected to be run principally by my wife, a strong woman but no amazon. Heaving full deeps is out of the question. So, as soon as that air compressor and nailer get here we'll be stapling together 300 or so of the buggers. Tim ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 23:28:31 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: Hobbyist Equipment Opinions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >Any ideas on lifting hives by yourself would be appreciated. Denise: Some Europeans use what is called a Golz-Beute hive. The hive is arranged laterally with the brood chamber in front and the honey storage area or “honey house” in the rear. Ahlert Schmidt posted some information on them in the past. If I’ve copied the addresses correctly you should be able to access them. If not just type in Ahlert Schimdt under author’s address in an archive search. The item numbers are 028109 and 037441. He will email you some drawings in a .zip file if you request it. A great idea if you enjoy trying novel approaches to beekeeping. Regards, Dick http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind9906C&L=bee-l&P=R545 http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0110C&L=bee-l&P=R3014 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 20:27:36 -0800 Reply-To: mejensen@pacbell.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Mark Jensen Organization: No Junk Mail Subject: Re: Air Staplers and Nailers In-Reply-To: <200202270310.g1R25Bq2008044@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On Tue, 26 Feb 2002 21:50:12 -0500, Carmenie Stemmler wrote: >I am assuming at the commercial beekeepers do not bang all equipment >together using nails and the good old hammer. What do you use? I use a Senco gun with 1 3/4 in. staples to build frames. It is fast, and they do not come apart. The 1 3/4 staples would probably do a good job on boxes, but I use 2 or 2 1/2 in. screws with a Makita screw driver for those. You can get screw guns with banks of screws to speed things up. Mark Jensen mejensen@pacbell.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 22:29:55 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: cold spell effects on early Pollen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello All, Do to our unseasonable warm weather quite a few trees are producing = pollen. The present cold spell is putting our temperature down to around = zero tonight and we will be below freezing for at least 48 hours.=20 How will the cold spell affect the buds which are open?=20 The buds about to open? Thanks in advance. Sincerely, Bob Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 13:32:05 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Edwards Subject: Re: # of Pollination Sites MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Zachary Huang wrote: > On Tue, 26 Feb 2002 03:42:21 -0500, Dave Green wrote: Boys! ...Boys!! Calm down!! We have all had money-making ideas which were arrived at by others before we had the opportunity to put them into operation. "If you build it, etc." There is no reason that a variety of databases cannot co-exist, each with their own unique values and uses. There are several beekeeping programs in use, some I have found quite difficult and time-consuming. If one of you builds a database which is more useful to a certain group, that will be the one they use. Other people will have different uses for such a list, and you can play to those strengths. - John Edwards (I didn't think I had a dog in this fight) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 19:18:16 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Donald Franson Subject: Re: Evolution Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed It is still not evolution because it is still a mite, it has not changed the kind of bug it is. there is a difference between evolution and variation of a species. Donald _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 19:46:36 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Donald Franson Subject: Re: Evolution Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Robert: Non evolution becomes evolution when it changes the kind of species it was such as from bird to cat. Variation, such as from coyote to beagle (They are both dogs just different varities) is often called evolution but it is not truly evolution. check out your kids school books and you will see that they teach our kids that man evolved from primordial slime millions of years ago and that in evolutionary changes the changes are for the better, however all atempts to support this theory have been proven wrong and the support they have always tried to give always has the evolutionary change loosing something not gaining something. Here is a site that you might find interesting and they offer 1/2 million dollars if you can give proof of evolution. http://www.drdino.com Donald _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 05:16:48 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: Hobbyist Equipment Opinions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dick Allen writes: <> Robin Dartington in the UK has developed what he calls the 'long deep hive', which may be on the lines you're looking for, though it uses UK frames. He can be contacted at gray.dartington@dial.pipex.com Regards, Robert Brenchley RSBrenchley@aol.com Birmingham UK ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 07:34:34 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: BeeFarmer Subject: Re: Air Staplers and Nailers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I use good glue and Air Nailer and Stapler on my frames. I one again use good glue and hammer and nails on my boxes. Watch you don't get your fingers poked when doing frames! BeeFarmer Getting Kids involved in 4H Beekeeping http://www.homestead.com/BeeKeepers/ > Hi all, > > I am assuming at the commercial beekeepers do not bang all equipment > together using nails and the good old hammer. > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 07:44:45 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: BeeFarmer Subject: Re: Air Nailing Supers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just wanted to follow-up on this. Harbor Freight has this nailer and stapler on sale. I use this exact models for light work and they work nicely. 18 GAUGE AIR BRAD NAILER Reg. $29.99 SALE $14.99 Includes 3 and 4mm wrenches and tool oil. Safety trigger. . Operating PSI: 55 to 95 . Nail capacity: 3/8'' to 1-3/16'' . Magazine capacity: 100 42528-3VGA http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=42528 They also have a stapler that is avertised on the web for 34.99 but in there latest magazine the price at around 24.99. 18 GAUGE, 1/4'' CROWN AIR STAPLER free 6000 Staples Comes with 1'' and 1-1/2'' staples, 3000 each and blowmold case. Handles 3/8'' to 1-5/8'' staples 100 staple capacity Safety trigger Required pressure: 55 to 95 PSI Air inlet: 1/4'' NPT Overall dimensions: 10-1/4'' L x 2''W x 7-3/8''H Tool weight: 5.05 lbs. ITEM 45728-0VGA http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=45728 BeeFarmer Getting Kids involved in 4H Beekeeping http://www.homestead.com/BeeKeepers/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 07:49:53 -0500 Reply-To: mpalmer@together.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: michael palmer Subject: Re: Air Nailing Supers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Carmenie Stemmler wrote: > I was wondering what size of staples you used for the > boxes, and how is worked out? I have a Duo-Fast staple gun. For supers and hivebodies I use 7/16 x 2 coated galvanized staples, with a rabbeted joint. They hold very well. The advantage in using a staple gun is speed. Just yesterday, I built 75 medium supers in 6 hours. Couldn't imagine how long it would take with nails. Mike ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 07:52:01 -0500 Reply-To: mpalmer@together.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: michael palmer Subject: Re: Air Staplers and Nailers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Carmenie Stemmler wrote: > Hi all, > > A couple beekeepers I > know use 1/4" crown by 1 1/4" length staples to put frames together, and I > am thinking to do the same. Is there any advantage of these over the nails? Speed. With two people, and two 10 -frame jigs, I can put together 500 frames in a day. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 08:35:04 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Consciousness, was "Bees can't plan?" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Well, it appears that Morristown, NJ has determined what is a sentient being. http://www.dailyrecord.com/news/02/02/27/news10-ANIMALS.htm Interesting article. The whole thing is being pushed by Vegans. They are also in the middle of doing away with beekeeping since beekeepers are cruel to bees. Question - which only needs a few answers but has troubled me. Are there many on the list who do not have internet access so cannot go to the link and read the articles? Reason for asking is that it is easy to put in a link rather than saying what is in the article, but if you cannot access it, then I will paraphrase and add the link. Bill Truesdell Bath, Me ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 08:38:28 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Michael Bassett Subject: Re: cold spell effects on early Pollen >How will the cold spell affect the buds which are open? > >The buds about to open? >Bob Harrison we had the same thing happen last year in Massachusetts. The oak trees were just budding out and that killed the buds and no accorns. Most everything else that was open went the same way, some plants that were not open but close failed some didn't. all in all It seemed to be a lousy spring but then again the winter was so hard the hives were behind in the spring anyway so it was hard to tell which caused the most problem. I would guess you could test the buds like you test the ones on your apple trees? mike bassett ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 06:36:09 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Weird Wedding? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This link has gotta be meant for some beekeeper out there: http://www.yaletownentertainment.com/weddings/ allen ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 08:47:15 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: huestis Subject: Re: Air Nailing Supers Comments: To: mpalmer@together.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Mike, >Couldn't imagine how long it would take with nails. To do fifty deep boxes. It takes 2 days. Glueing, screwing the corners, swinging the hammer for the rest. Figured I had time during the winter. Clay ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 09:23:00 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Michael Bassett Subject: Re: No Way Backwards - The Pesticide Treadmill On Fri, 15 Feb 2002 12:17:38 -0800, Dee Lusby wrote: >*The addition of two or four new CheckMite+ strips did not >result in increased mite drop over 24 hours (approximately >400 mties/colony) when compared to mite drop from colonies >with "used strips" (approximately 350 mites/colony). In >contrast, the addition of two Apistan strips resulted in a >10-fold increase (approximately 3,800 mites/colony/24 >hours) in mite numbers when compared to the "used strips" >mite drop.* > >I find this frightening to read, for it says to me there is >no alternating of treatments between apistan and coumaphos >in reverse of harsher to milder, so you can only go forward >harder and harsher. I'm confused, I read the article, and after this post went back and read it again. If the addition of the Apistan strips caused a 10 fold increase in the mite drop, I assumed that it meant that the Apistan was working? what am I missing? should the mite drop been higher? thanks Mike Bassett massachusetts ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 08:22:47 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Donald Franson Subject: Re: Consciousness, was "Bees can't plan?" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed If they want to do away with beekeeping and they rely on crops what will happen to the crops when all the bees are gone? Don _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 09:36:35 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Natural Comb Cell size In-Reply-To: <01C1BEF6.F27A0600@pm8-31.discoverynet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Bob wrote: >1. Order a SMR open mated queen and requeen and get varroa control in eight weeks. OR 2. convert all hives to 4.9mm. foundation in two downsizes. A few years back (has it been so long?) I wrote to Dr. Erickson, since he seemed to be the only researcher looking into small cells as a varroa control measure. He said the following: >We conducted our first trial with cell size and Varroa in 1993-1996. The results must be considered preliminary, but showed pronounced trends favoring smaller cell size. ... This study demonstrated to us that there appeared to be greater differences due to genetics than cell size so our work turned to looking at Varroa-tolerance. His most recent work in the American Bee Journal (Aug. 2000) focused on the ways that beekeepers can select for resistance in their won stock. For those who don't have the time or inclination to raise queens, purchasing resistant stock seems like a very favorable option. PB ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 09:52:47 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Karen Oland Subject: Re: Evolution In-Reply-To: <200202271257.g1RCYmmW021655@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----Original Message----- -From: Donald Franson - -Non evolution becomes evolution when it changes the kind of species it was -such as from bird to cat. Donald, You should really check out the article at http://www.brown.edu/Administration/Brown_Alumni_Magazine/00/11-99/features/ darwin.html. This is an extremely well-written explanation of why evolution as SCIENCE does not in any way conflict with religion. Many clergy (and lay people as a result) confuse evolution with true atheism (which does not require the person believe in evolution either). That then pits them against the continuing body of knowledge that man is accumulating, resulting in an internal conflict between what the church teaches and what science teaches and their own eyes can observe. -Variation, such as from coyote to beagle (They are both dogs just different -varities) is often called evolution but it is not truly evolution. Since species differientiation is a classification arbitrarily assigned by man, the coyote and beagle example really does not hold to refute evolution. At the present time, they are not both "dogs", as defined by man, but if you go far enough back in time, they did descend from a single species. So, since you say they never change from what they were then, yes they are still the "same" - creatures descended from a common ancestor. But the changes in different populations of the descendants of that ancestral species are what scientists call evolution, resulting in what man arbitrarily now calls two different species. (And that arbitrariness is more evident in the plant world, where over the last 100 years, many plants have been re-classified, as our ability to determine their relationships has improved). A single mite does not evolve. But, it's progeny will have different characteristics, some of which may give it an advantage over others of it's kind. If enough of these changes occur, we then call it a new species, simply because MAN uses that to define the difference between species .. a certain degree of difference beteween populations. This new species would still have much in common with its most closely related "relatives" (other mites), and less and less in common with other species that are less closely related. -check out your kids school books and you will see that they teach our kids -that man evolved from primordial slime millions of years ago and that in -evolutionary changes the changes are for the better One important point -- evolution does not have the lesson that all changes are for the better. Many lead to dead ends, with those species unable to compete in a changing world (either due to climate changes or due to competition from new predators or parasites). What evolution does teach is that in the end, some species will evolve to take advantage of every ecological niche. For example -- if the honey bee were to perish due to mite infestation (pick a mite here or due to the combination), then other pollinators would take their place. For any plant that some other pollinator does not exists or cannot adapt to, that plant also perishes. Other plants, with less competitors, then have the chance to take over those niches, and so on. That, simply put is evolution. - however all atempts to -support this theory have been proven wrong Scientific proofs can be confusing to some. Basically, you look for anything that contradicts (refutes) your theory. So long as nothing is found, the theory stands. So, with evolution as a theory, the current status is that nothing to refute it has already been found. By the same rules, religion in general, defined as a belief in a "creator" that guided the creation of our physical world as we know it, also has never been refuted. Some particular religious beliefs are contradicted (the earth as only 6,000 years old, evolution does not occur, the earth is at the center of the universe, the earth is flat and many others as you include more religions that have existed over time). By the same token, the existence of a creator cannot be "proven" as in showing it absolutely does exist (at least, not in this world). -Here is a site that you might find interesting and they offer 1/2 million -dollars if you can give proof of evolution. See above for why this is such a risk-free offer to make. When you define your rules of proof so that they cannot be satisfied by the field in which you are challenging, you are not risking your money. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 09:55:18 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Evolution MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" The discussion of evolution/religion has strayed far from The Informed Discussion of Bees and Beekeeping Issues. Please take it off-list, move it to a different list or keep the discussion on topic for BEE-L. Aaron Morris - thinking too many lists, too little time. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 09:58:28 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Karen Oland Subject: Re: Hives made from treated wood In-Reply-To: <200202262034.g1QDfSMi014232@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit And in the honey and wax made in them as well. Not to mention the exposure you have to hazardous chemicals if you work the bees without gloves and don't have all surfaces painted. Or from the occasional splinter. Karen -----Original Message----- From: Jerry J Bromenshenk If you have been using treated wood, ...most of these chemicals will off-gas to some degree, and those fumes we can detect in the air inside the hive. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 09:04:39 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Blane White Subject: Re: No Way Backwards - The Pesticide Treadmill Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi everyone, In response to this report:=20 >*The addition of two or four new CheckMite+ strips did not >result in increased mite drop over 24 hours (approximately >400 mties/colony) when compared to mite drop from colonies >with "used strips" (approximately 350 mites/colony). In >contrast, the addition of two Apistan strips resulted in a >10-fold increase (approximately 3,800 mites/colony/24 >hours) in mite numbers when compared to the "used strips" >mite drop.* Mike wrote: "I'm confused, I read the article, and after this post went back and read = it again. If the addition of the Apistan strips caused a 10 fold increase in the mite drop, I assumed that it meant that the Apistan was working? what am I missing? should the mite drop been higher? thanks Mike Bassett massachusetts" The problem is that the mites that were dropped by the apistan were not = killed. Also the percent of the total mite population dropped by apistan = was not high enough to give control of the varroa mites in these hives. = In short, we are adding coumaphos resistance to the varroa before they = have lost fluvalinate resistance. This of course is not a good situation = at all. What can be done? Switch to resistant bees as soon as you can - = try the russian and the SMR queens and see if they will work well in your = outfit. Try them before you face resistant mites and switch to what works = best for you. You can also try the 8 mesh ( 1/8 inch mesh) hive bottoms = which give a little help with the varroa and might allow that apistan = treatment to buy you some time if you are dealing with coumaphos resistance= . The more beekeepers buy and use the varroa resistant queens available ( = both types ) the more the varroa resistance genes are going to be = available in the drones out there and the more those traits will also move = into the feral population of honey bees. =20 FWIW blane ****************************************** Blane White MN Dept of Agriculture blane.white@state.mn.us ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 10:46:33 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Karen Oland Subject: Re: No Way Backwards - The Pesticide Treadmill In-Reply-To: <200202271507.g1RCYLxk021645@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Was there more to the report (confirming these claims) that was not quoted in the post? There is no indication that the "mite drop" on either chemical was dead or live mites (another reason to use a screened bottom board). Nor, that the mite drop from the Apistan was not enough to control the mite population 3,800 mites per day, after 42 days, even with decreasing numbers each days, as the population decreases, should eliminate even a very large population of mites. K Oland -----Original Message----- From: Blane White The problem is that the mites that were dropped by the apistan were not = killed. Also the percent of the total mite population dropped by apistan = was not high enough to give control of the varroa mites in these hives. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 08:46:45 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jerry J Bromenshenk Subject: Glue, Joints, and Staple Guns Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi: Have kept bees for 30 yrs and also being a woodworker and with Western Bee (who makes all of Dadants woodenware) just a bit down the road and also working with Fred Rossman, I offer these comments: Glue: Most commercial folks that I know don't use glue. They do put in an extra nail or staple in each frame - that's popped through the top of the end bars, into the top bar, just under the ear (or shoulder) of the top bar. That horizontal nail or staple locks the top bar to the end bar, more or less eliminating pulling the top bar out of the end bar when a frame is propolised into a hive body. Many hobbiest's use common white or yellow woodworkers glue. Save your money, it will come apart in the humid conditions inside a beehive. Use one of the moisture resistant glues like Titebond or, go for the pricey stuff, and use Gorilla. Having said this, I haven't tested to see what, if anything, these glues might off-gas into the hive. Joints: Dadant uses finger joints - and its great fun to watch their equipment produce the frames and hive bodies. Again, commercial folks are more worried about the box coming apart during handling than a bit of paint flaking, and they plan on re-painting, although unless they work in very humid climates, they go years without. Boxes look pretty bad, but the corners are still together. Fred uses a rabbit joint BUT he also uses a naturally rot resistant wood. In that case, his boxes also hold together just fine. We use pine or fir and have worked in many different climates. The main advantage of the finger joint is that the top corners of the boxes stay put. With a rabbit joint (in soft wood - THIS DOESN'T APPLY TO THE NICE BOXES FRED PRODUCES), the top bit of the front and back boards of each hive body will eventually swell and part at the corners, leaning outwards. The next time someone puts a hive tool to the end of a frame to pop it loose and either happens to put lateral force against the top of the box, or gets in a hurry and uses the top edge of the box to lever against, the whole strip breaks loose along the wood grain line. We have lots of boxes where you can see the ends of the frame top bars without opening the hive because of this. Finally, for years I was too cheap to buy a nailer or staple gun. Finally bought both. Use staples - the long shank staples really hold, probably because as they go in, each leg of the staple tends to be pushed around by the wood grain, so that the staple becomes a bit splayed, making it hard to pull out. A nail on the other hand is easy to pull out, unless you can get some type of ridge shank nail - and I haven't seen these in sizes that you can put into a frame. Also, what size depends on your hand-eye coordination. From my perspective, the longer the better -- but most of my students can't drive a long staple straight into the wood, so the ends blow out of the wood. Don't try to pull these out. Just cut them off flush with the wood. Oh, we also use a jig to keep the parts perpendicular to each other and steady them while you drive the staple or nail. Cheers Jerry ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 10:26:50 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Evolution MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aaron Morris wrote: > > The discussion of evolution/religion has strayed far from The Informed > Discussion of Bees and Beekeeping Issues. It evolved into a different species. Bill Truesdell Bath, Me ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 11:13:35 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Karen Oland Subject: Re: # of Pollination Sites In-Reply-To: <200202261445.g1QDfSrc014232@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit And how is this different from state/fed paid govt ag extension publications? Yes, they compete with commercial writers and are given away "free" (which is only right, since the taxpayer already paid for them). So, commercial writers, motivated by profit, must distinguish their offerings in some way, offering more value for the cost involved to the consumer. As to the strawberry grower and another beekeeper setting up their hives ... that is the reason for written contracts and civil lawsuits. Breach of contract is pretty well established as a cause for liability to the other party. It matters not that Clemson put them in "free" (actually Dave, paid for by you through your taxes), the party in the wrong is the strawberry grower. Clemson has done nothing illegal (morally offensive perhaps, but even then, that depends on their knowledge of the prior contract), so long as they did not conspire in the breach. I am not unsympathetic to your loss of income, but I think you are mad at the wrong party. As to the web page contoversy -- it is very difficult anymore for the hobbyist to compete with the resources of a larger "company", whether it is private or government financed. But, that doesn't mean that if your page is perceived as "better" that it could not be profitable. Better can mean many things, including sheer number of visitors, number of click-thrus, or number of referral purchases, which is what most people are willing to pay advertising revenue on. With proper promotion (say, pay $xx extra for your logo added , $yy for a live link to your site, $zz for preferential placement or featured supplier listing ... none of which are probably possible at a govt site), you could "win" the battle. Or, you could add customer feedback notes to give your site more value (there are tools to do this for free with little programming, such as blog). And so on. There is a place for both, but little profit in a war. (well, no doubt little profit in the endeavor at all, as we all know how tight many beekeepers are ). K Oland ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 10:14:51 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Blane White Subject: Re: No Way Backwards - The Pesticide Treadmill Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable koland wrote in part: "Was there more to the report (confirming these claims) that was not = quoted in the post? There is no indication that the "mite drop" on either = chemical was dead or live mites (another reason to use a screened bottom board). Nor, that the mite drop from the Apistan was not enough to control the = mite population 3,800 mites per day, after 42 days, even with decreasing numbers each days, as the population decreases, should eliminate even a = very large population of mites." Yes there was more information given by Dr Pettis at the meeting in = Savannah that included the twist on apistan knocking down but not killing = the mites. The recent report from research by Mike Hood and Keith = Delaplane also showed that using a screen bottom resulting in a considerabl= e increase in effectivness of apistan in Georgia - but again not enough to = fully control the mites. Yes bottom screens can be a help in dealing with = resistant varroa populations but they will only partly solve the problem. = =20 Sorry for the confusion guess that is what happens when you have heard the = whole story but is may not have published yet in full details. Another = reason to attend meeting and listen to the researchers themselves. blane ****************************************** Blane White MN Dept of Agriculture blane.white@state.mn.us ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 11:13:58 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Glue, Joints, and Staple Guns In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.20020227084645.01464260@selway.umt.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 2/27/02 08:46 AM, you wrote: >Also, what size depends on your hand-eye coordination. From my perspective, the longer the better -- but most of my students can't drive a long staple straight into the wood, so the ends blow out of the wood. This usually happens if the gun is not level. If you can put some kind of a block on the gun at the tail end to make it easier to keep it level (i.e., parallel to the top bar) -- wild staples will be greatly reduced. (The gun that I have now has NO place to put one. Bummer. ) I always tell people to keep their hands way from the area where the staples are going because occasionally a staple will go wild due to irregularities in the wood density or grain. And these babys hurt when they get in your finger (especially the big two inch ones used for putting together supers). By the way, I agree: longer is better. We had some frames put together by an outfit that employs the handicapped. The found out it was easier to use a short staple on the bottom bar and ***they didn't think it made any difference***. Well, you couldn't tell they had done this, until the frames started falling apart. Picture this: 5 pounds of honey on a sheet of hard plastic foundation. ALL the weight is resting on the bottom bar ! If you set that 85 pound super down with a clunk, it is very easy to break every bottom bar in the super, even if they are nailed correctly. If the staple is only 1/2 inch they pop right out. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 11:41:30 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Green Subject: Web Pages: (was: Re: # of Pollination Sites) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Zachary Huang" > I feel your pain (at the prospect of losing your livelihood) and sympathize > with you, however instead of trying to make a friend you are trying to make > an enemy here. I apologise, Dr. Huang. I went overboard. I had not slept since I heard about your pollinator database. I do not wish to make enemies. So...after finally getting some sleep...I will try to discuss this without any rancor. And of course I would link to your database anyway. (When we sold honey on the internet - which never amounted to much anyway - we linked that web page to our best competitors.) I also have no delusions about The Pollination Home Page being my livelihood. However, it has come to a point where something has to give. It costs about a thousand dollars a year (and lot of time), which I understand is a bare bones kind of thing in the internet world, yet it is more than I can afford to donate to the beekeeping world. So I had already decided that the page must at least support itself. I have a strong aversion to advertisements on web pages. I HATE banner adds, and had already concluded that if this kind of support is necessary, I will close the page. My thought, which I had already discussed with several beekeepers, was to allow them to "buy" a one page ad, which would come up for each state, ahead of the free listings (which I would most certainly continue). The ad would include a photo or two, and more explicit information about their outfit. I would think some of the larger operators would be willing to spend the income of one or two pollination hives for such an ad. But the base of those who would be willing to do this, would be certainly be reduced, if there were other free listings available. And I've always considered the pollinator list to be the core of the page. > If your criticism is reasonable, then Bayer should not have developed > Checkmite+ because Apistan was working so well 3 years ago. And John Hogg > should not have developed the half comb because the ross-rounds are already > working well. I still do wish to point out (without animosity) that I am not arguing against free enterprise. But if one of these competitors is supported by public funding, it is no longer free enterprise. > I even offered the > possibility of giving you WHAT I HAVE Thank you for the offer. But I am not able to maintain a server here in this rural area. I looked into this, when I was trying to get a web camera on the entrance of a monitor hive to show when bees were carrying cotton pollen (for pesticide applicators). I could set up a server and camera with no problem, but found that it would cost somewhere around $900 a month for a line. > By the way, please remove.... Thank you for clearing up this mystery. I deleted her listing immediately. I ran a word search of my e-mail for the past three years and she does not appear in any of my mail. I had no idea what you were referring to. Another e-mail lost in cyberspace, I suppose.... >You never answered me on > this: when was your search engine started? I don't remember exactly; it was whenever Google started offering it. I honestly don't understand the point about a search engine being so important. No state except perhaps California has so many listings that a grower could not simply just scroll his state. And my index is cross referenced whenever a pollinator indicates he is willing to work multiple states. For all the folks on the bee list, this is a turning point for the Pollination Home Page. While I appreciate it, please don't just write to encourage me to continue (as some have done), because I cannot continue without some changes. Let me tell you something of what I intended to do, and if you think this is worthwhile, please give me some concrete suggestions as to how, and more to the point, how to fund it. Without being ungrateful to those who have made contributions, these have been too few and too small to make a significant impact on keeping the page going. My intent for the future was to be (1.) a lot more emphasis on pollination images, for which I receive a steady stream of those who want to use them (for free, of course!), and I have always made them available for educational use. I had thought there would be more requests for commercial use, so that this could help support the page. Commercial requests have been insignificant. A porno site simply appropriated one mating insect image... :o( (2.) I had intended to do a lot more pesticide monitoring, to document the effects of pesticide practices on domestic and wild pollinators. I want to equip hives with (hopefully inexpensive) sensors and do a lot of photography to show what is going on... This seems to be an area, where people employed by "the system" are afraid to go, probably fearing negative effects on their jobs. I think there is some advantage (for the beekeeping world) of an independent person doing it. (There's kind of a catch 22: if I had a PhD, I might lose my job for some of the things I say, but if I don't have the PhD, nobody believes me -neither of which affects the truth of the statements.) If I can provide clear and precise documentation, it should have more impact. Or at least nudge others within the "system" to do more looking into this. (3) I had intended to focus a lot more on other beneficial insects. The effect of present day practices not only impact pollinators, but also many other insects that are vital to the whole ecosystem. This is a whole world that is pretty exciting for me. It is outside my practical experience, but I've always been observant of beneficials. (4) I had intended to produce a lot more educational material geared to age levels for school use. We already have an amazing amount of school use; I get a lot of e-mail from teachers, and I find more and more educational resource pages are linking to my page. I think it's pretty important for a child to know that the bee is a vital link in his or her life, even if Mom hates it. I think the web page has had more impact than all the school presentations I have done. I may be producing some educational CDs for sale to help fund these efforts. How do other beekeeper webmasters do it? Allen Dick has a tremendous site, without selling anything. It must cost plenty, in time, if not cash, and I've long since concluded that Allen does not sleep. Giles Ratia has likewise, but I think he's full time, and the site must be his livelihood. Herb at Midnite Bee has a very nice site, but does sell some things. Can they possibly be enough to finance the site? It never was for us. Barry Birkey's site is an outstanding, but I think underutilized, site by beekeepers. He sells books, but that could not be a major source of financing, could it? There are not many free sites left, mostly they are of the personal type, like mine, so that they are simply financed personally. YahooGroups is one large commercial site that apparently makes money by splashing banner ads, which I absolutely despise. There are many communities there that I think are a major source of information sharing in a number of field, including beekeeping. But, as more and more people are adding ad blocking programs, there are rumors that YahooGroups will soon be charging for their site. I understand that they must make a profit, but I think it will be the death of some good things. Given my dislike for ads, I guess I need to do more investigation of grants. Not having been in that environment, I find the grant application process quite intimidating. Any good tips? Dave Green SC USA The Pollination Home Page (Now searchable): http://pollinator.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 15:42:37 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Cushman Subject: Chris's Comb MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Chris & all > Or you can make Plaster of Paris casts from the cells and measure the plugs. > See Dave Cushman's web site for a dimensioned diagram of one of mine. The page is rather untidy and incomplete... http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman/chriscomb.html There is more information to come from this piece of comb, but it will be statistical information about variation and the different measurements at the three F, M, & R cross sections. I am in progress with making some foundation with patches of different cellsizes which may or may not help this issue, but unless we try we will not 'find out' http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman/celltest.html Best Regards & 73s... Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website... http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 15:21:16 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Dave Cushman Catching Up MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Chris & all > Will not the natural environment in which the bees exist in > our hypothetical village provide the impetus for quantum > creep? This, of course, is on the assumption that Dee is > right and that currently bees are unnaturally larger > than intended and are disadvantaged by this. Whatever pressures there are from the environment, your hypothetically isolated bees are influenced by the cellsize in comb that previous generations have made. To eliminate this influence you would need to cull all existing combs every year and continue to do this for many years... Look up *Helmholz Equation* on a search engine and you will get an idea of the shape of the adaptation curve. The less the difference the longer it takes. Even with annual culling I can see it taking twenty or more years to reduce the influence of the cellsize, that existed before the experiment started, to 5% ie. 95% re-adapted. The cellsize produced by a given generation of bees is thus a straight jacket that holds that cellsize more or less constant until an influence comes along. I do not know what cellsize is 'natural' for any given race of bee and I am now suspicious that what has been recorded and published in the distant past has been supplanted by more recent recording, without due regard for any possible mechanisms that may be distorting the 'facts'. The work done about 20 years ago, by Steve Taber, using blown glass queencell cups in different sizes showed that the optimum was 12% larger than all the wax cups used at the turn of the previous century, I do not think that all those that experimented with wax cups got it wrong, but that they got it right for their bees in their timeframe. I think Steves work merely shows what was right in his timeframe. and that the difference is a good lead to show what has happened to foundation sizes inbetween times. Best Regards & 73s... Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website... http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 10:55:23 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Donald Aitken Subject: Re: Glue, Joints, and Staple Guns MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Regarding the length of the staples holding in the bottom bar: It is not good to depend on nails or staples if they are put in tension. We use two small brads horizontally in the bottom bar joint. These brads are in shear and seem to be very reliable. We do the same on the top bars. Best regards Donald Aitken ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 11:20:09 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Donald Aitken Subject: Re: Chris's Comb MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi to Chris and Dave: This idea of taking casts of the cells is quite clever. It would be of real interest to take casts of cells from the same foundation size which had been used one time, two times, four times, etc. and see if the sequence tends to a particular cell size before it has the cocoons removed and starts over. This size presumably would be the smallest the particular hive is willing to work in. Although there would be no record of how many generations had been raised, one could do it for new comb, fairly new comb and old comb. Best regards Donald Aitken ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 11:18:52 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Richard Yarnell Organization: Oregon VOS Subject: Re: Consciousness, was "Bees can't plan?" In-Reply-To: <200202271338.g1RDMhm2023201@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII For those of us who read the list on a text only system, a brief description of the article or site, quotations which make the point and the url of the specific article covers the bases. Lynx, a useful text browser, will get to any address. But as graphics and frames predominate, fewer and fewer web designers take the trouble to make their sites text friendly. Where I live, reading in text means being able to cover 10 times the material in a given time. Thanks for asking. On Wed, 27 Feb 2002, Bill Truesdell wrote: > Question - which only needs a few answers but has troubled me. Are there > many on the list who do not have internet access so cannot go to the > link and read the articles? Reason for asking is that it is easy to put > in a link rather than saying what is in the article, but if you cannot > access it, then I will paraphrase and add the link. --------------- Richard Yarnell, SHAMBLES WORKSHOPS | No gimmick we try, no "scientific" Beavercreek, OR. Makers of fine | fix we attempt, will save our planet Wooden Canoes, The Stack(R) urban | until we reduce the population. Let's composter, Raw Honey | leave our kids a decent place to live. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 14:50:48 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Karen Oland Subject: Re: Web Pages: (was: Re: # of Pollination Sites) In-Reply-To: <200202271709.g1RGaAnC028663@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dave, --A porno site simply appropriated one mating insect image... :o( And how, may we ask, did you come across this misappropriation of your image? --YahooGroups is one large commercial site that apparently makes --money by splashing banner ads, which I absolutely despise. And most of believe also selling our email addresses to the bulk spammers out there. --there are rumors that YahooGroups will soon be charging for their site. The current rumour is this is due to the use of the groups by "adult" photo swapping groups. They email photos to each other as attachments and have thousands of members. Most of the bee groups will probably be unaffected. k.Oland ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 15:17:38 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Green Subject: The Secret Life of Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I just finished reading "The Secret Life of Bees" by Charleston writer = Sue Monk Kidd, who visited us to get background on keeping bees, which = is one theme of the book. The main themes of the book are the coming of age of an adolescent = girl, and the bitter race relations of the time, which is the era of the = civil rights marches in the South. It dances around with an old taboo, = interracial romance, without coming to a conclusion on this part of the = story. Sue is brilliant at creating colorful characters. The mental = image of (black) Rosaleen pouring her bottle of tobacco spit on the = local rednecks who tried to stop her voter registration is full of humor = and pathos. And I related to the spinster beekeeper mentor encouraging = Lily (the young girl) that the bees would not hurt her, if she focused = on sending them love. It makes a very interesting story, quite realistic, with a little = fantasy thrown in. It will help build empathy for our black brothers and = sisters who lived thru this time. I felt just a little unhappy that some = threads of the story were left unresolved, but I guess that is more like = real life than the imaginary world we'd sometimes prefer. I'm not sure how a devout Catholic would respond, because the idea of = a Black Madonna is another important theme. She almost takes on the = aspect of a goddess. She's actually a statue off an old ship's prow, = which was found by slaves, and has been passed down to the modern era. My own perception of the book was colored by my interest in how = accurate Sue portrayed the beekeeping. She did surprisingly well, for a = non-beekeeper. Obviously she did a lot of preparation for the beekeeping = aspects of the story. She had a couple of minor things that were ahead = of their time, but all-in-all, she did an excellent job of giving a = picture of beekeeping in that era. We felt we had a little stake in the = book, because she had come to us for info. Every now and then, something = she added popped out at us, as something we had introduced to her, such = as the comments on purple honey. I would recommend the book. Beekeepers and non-beekeepers would enjoy = the beekeeping side, I think, for different reasons. And it makes a = thoughtful yet entertaining tale for anyone. Dave Green SC USA The Pollination Home Page (Now searchable): http://pollinator.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 15:43:21 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Kyle Lewis Subject: Glue and Nails Fellow Beekeepers, When I got my first frame parts a year ago, I tried nailing them with some small brads, which split the wood. I wasted my first frame. From then on, I used epoxy glue and never considered nailing. A more convenient glue is Weldbond. It is an absolutely waterproof PVA glue that is extremely strong and non-toxic. It is made by a Canadian company, so it has to be the great stuff, right, Allen? :) If you have suggestions about nailing without splitting frames, I would appreciate your advice. Cheers, Kyle ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 14:35:55 -0800 Reply-To: lithar@hcis.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: AL Subject: Re: Evolution MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill Truesdell wrote: > > Aaron Morris wrote: > > > > The discussion of evolution/religion has strayed > > It evolved into a different species. > But, can it adapt? AL ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 16:04:00 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Glenn West Subject: Re: Box, Lap, Butt/Biscuit Joint On Tue, 26 Feb 2002 16:51:49 -0800, Carm wrote: >And then there is the Butt/biscuit joint that a couple >people have suggested, though I am not sure if that >was through bee-l or to me personally. Combining the >simplicity of simply cutting the boards to the proper >length, and then using the strength of the bisuit. But >as my brother is pointing out as I type, it maybe be >hard to get that accurate due to the fact that the >boards are being joined at right angles, and not side >to side as what biscuit jointers are commonly used >for. > I have often successfully used biscuits to join boards at right angles. I agree that cutting the biscuit on the face of the board can be difficult, but not impossibly so. Aligning the boards so that the outside edge of one board aligns with the end of the other is mostly a matter of cutting the slots in the correct manner. Vertical alignment is also not much of a problem as the slots are cut slightly longer than the biscuits. That said, I would offer that the biscuit doesn't really provide much strength. It's mostly an alignment mechanism. Moreover, end grain gluing doesn't provide a very strong joint either. That's the beauty of the finger joint. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 16:24:06 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jim Stein Subject: Re: Glue and Nails In-Reply-To: <200202272112.g1RCYLUI021645@listserv.albany.edu> >If you have suggestions about nailing without splitting frames, I would >appreciate your advice. I drill pilot holes. Glue is mandatory. Jim -- ----------------------------------------------------------- jstein@worldnet.att.net ----------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 16:39:45 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Green Subject: Re: Web Pages MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Karen Oland" To: > --A porno site simply appropriated one mating insect image... :o( > > And how, may we ask, did you come across this misappropriation of your > image? Ooooooppps! Actually I did not intentionally visit the site. Honest! Cross my heart and hope to die! I occasionally run searches for links and for the digital watermarks for my photos. They can be quite informative. I've been searching to try to clean up all the dead links to my old pollination page, now closed for well over a year. It's almost impossible to get all the links out "there." For one thing, the seach engines do not find them all. Sometimes I notice them in other ways, such as when I was recently browsing on Dr. Huang's page. I need to let him know he has a dead link. ;o) For another thing, a lot of webmasters won't update their page, even if you notify them.... Expunging dead links to expired pages is like trying to kill afrobeetles. Every now and then I find a link to Andy Nachbaur's page, which actually did live on after him for a year or so (makes me sad every time, too). Dave in SC (-Durn....now I gotta go check my page for dead links...again....) Dave Green SC USA The Pollination Home Page (Now searchable): http://pollinator.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 16:05:23 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Mark Subject: Re: Glue and Nails MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kyle wrote: > If you have suggestions about nailing without splitting frames, I would > appreciate your advice. Reply: Soak them in water for 20 min. or so. Splitting will be greatly reduced. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 17:07:52 -0500 Reply-To: mpalmer@together.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: michael palmer Subject: Re: Glue and Nails MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kyle Lewis wrote: > If you have suggestions about nailing without splitting frames, I would > appreciate your advice. Try dulling the nail before you use it. Place it head down on a hard surface (I have a little square of metal on my bench) and tap the point with your hammer. This makes the end of the nail slightly flat. When you drive the nail, it bores part of the hole as it goes through the wood. If you don't dull it, the nail acts like a wedge, and splits the grain of the wood. This is good for any size wood, 2x4 to frame parts, where you have to drive a nail near the end grain ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 14:11:25 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Richard Yarnell Organization: Oregon VOS Subject: Re: Box, Lap, Butt/Biscuit Joint In-Reply-To: <200202272118.g1RCYLVe021645@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII The finger or comb joint doesn't increase the area of end grain when compared to a simple butt joint. In addition to avoiding reliance on end grain on one side of the joint, the finger joint appreciably increases the are of glued joint. I prefer to use four screws on both faces, the first full finger on both top and bottom. One of the reasons I use a single part epoxy is that the expanding material fills most voids in the complex joint. Use of deck screws eliminates any need to pre-drill. I use Thompson's Water Seal on the exterior corners after the glue is set and any excess has been scraped off and prior to painting. The lap joint, on the other hand, cuts the exposed end grain by 50% more or less. However, it does rely on a substanital proportion of endgrain for the glue bond and the mechanical component of the joint, screws or nails, usually have half or less thickness of the stock on the lap side of the joint. After assembly, I use Thompson's water seal prior on at least the exterior corners before painting. Someone asked about the advantage of staples over nails: For one thing, a staple resists parts' twisting. However, each leg of the staple is smaller and prone to wander as it goes into the stock, often with surpising results. Carefully done, stapling or nailing with pneumatic equipment is fine. One hand to nail, one to hold. The same is true for screws. It's easy to get sloppy and if there's anyone else in the vicinity sloppiness can be painful and more. There are bench mounted biscuit cutters which will hanle butt joints. The work much like a dovetail jig does holding the stock. I'd still use an expanding glue and a few screws or staples since you do need to clamp the joints fully closed. Glenn is correct that biscuits are primarily an alignment tool unless you can find laminated or solid ones. Most are the equivalent of particle board. Nylon band clamps are fine for the purpose if they are equipped with a ratchet. I'd use a pair on each box - top and bottom. Investment in the equipment pretty much requires there to be a volume of woodworking. And when it comes to air tools, you usually get what you pay for. IOW, if you already have the air, and have only a few boxes to assemble, a cheap tool will probably last long enough to warrant the expense. Otherwise, spring for a few bucks more, get a good tool or one that will drive more than one type fastener. On Wed, 27 Feb 2002, Glenn West wrote: > I have often successfully used biscuits to join boards at right angles. I > agree that cutting the biscuit on the face of the board can be difficult, > but not impossibly so. Aligning the boards so that the outside edge of one > board aligns with the end of the other is mostly a matter of cutting the > slots in the correct manner. Vertical alignment is also not much of a > problem as the slots are cut slightly longer than the biscuits. That said, > I would offer that the biscuit doesn't really provide much strength. It's > mostly an alignment mechanism. Moreover, end grain gluing doesn't provide > a very strong joint either. That's the beauty of the finger joint. > --------------- Richard Yarnell, SHAMBLES WORKSHOPS | No gimmick we try, no "scientific" Beavercreek, OR. Makers of fine | fix we attempt, will save our planet Wooden Canoes, The Stack(R) urban | until we reduce the population. Let's composter, Raw Honey | leave our kids a decent place to live. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 23:11:02 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Dillon Subject: Re: Glue and Nails MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To reduce splitting ends in frame timber, I soak the ends of the individual pieces in water, at a depth of 2 inches (5 cm.) for 15 minutes. Doesn't work all the time, but does limit splitting in timber that has been cut and stored. Also, the type of soft wood used influences the % of splits. During my travels in Canada, I have been told which is best for frames, boxes etc., but not being used to the range available - have forgottenwhat's what. Maybe others may comment on this! Peter ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 17:14:16 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Glue and Nails MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > suggestions about nailing without splitting frames Spray your nails with PAM (spray vegetable oil). Your nails will slip right into the frames, and you won't have any V. mites either! Actually, more research is required on the last half of the previous statement, but your nails WILL slip right into the frames if you spray them with PAM first. Aaron Morris - I think, therefore I bee! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 17:22:08 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Mark Subject: Re: Glue and Nails MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I was using a pneumatic stapler which worked great for all parts of the frame except the bottom bar. I use plastic foundation, so I must use grooved bottom bars. No matter how or what I did; soaking, staple length, and air pressure changes 30% would split. Now I have a pneumatic brad gun, but haven't tried it yet. Anyone have experience with brad guns on grooved bottom bars? Mark ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 13:41:01 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: No Way Backwards - The Pesticide Treadmill MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Karen and All, Karen wrote: Nor, that the mite drop from the Apistan was not enough to control the = mite population 3,800 mites per day, after 42 days, even with decreasing numbers each days, as the population decreases, should eliminate even a = very large population of mites. Actually Karen these hives were so far over threshold most was beyond = saving and later died.=20 Blane wrote: The problem is that the mites that were dropped by the apistan were not = =3D killed. Also the percent of the total mite population dropped by = apistan =3D was not high enough to give control of the varroa mites in these hives. The original post referred to the Coumaphos resistant mites found by = Jeff Pettis in bees in Maine and in Florida. Blane and I heard first hand from Jeff about the above at the ABF = convention in Savannah. Blane is correct in his post. Blane is only = saying what Jeff said and all bee inspectors in the room felt was = happening. Although not what beekeepers want to hear the truth is = Apistan is not giving control behind Coumaphos resistant mites. AT LEAST = NOT IN THOSE HIVES. The above hives had not had Apistan in three years. = =20 Sincerely, Bob Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 12:37:22 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jerry J Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Glue, Joints, and Staple Guns In-Reply-To: <200202271759.g1RHoemC000980@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 10:55 AM 2/27/02 -0700, you wrote: Good suggestion, same trick as I outlined for the top bars. Takes time, and with lots of frames, we don't have much problem with the bottom bar falling loose, but the nail or staple for the top bar is really important. >Regarding the length of the staples holding in the bottom bar: > >It is not good to depend on nails or staples if they are put in tension. We >use two small brads horizontally in the bottom bar joint. These brads are in >shear and seem to be very reliable. We do the same on the top bars. > > Best regards > > Donald Aitken > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 18:47:01 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Steve Newcomb Subject: Re: Glue and Nails MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mark I used brads from an air nailer, and the will pull out easily. I use plastic foundation and crooved bottom bars too. Use plenty of glue. I bought a 1/4" crown air stapler. Use 5/8" brads. They won't split the side bars as easily. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 18:24:39 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Mark Subject: Re: Glue, Joints, and Staple Guns MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Donald wrote: > It is not good to depend on nails or staples if they are put in tension. We > use two small brads horizontally in the bottom bar joint. These brads are in > shear and seem to be very reliable. We do the same on the top bars. Reply: Hey Donald, great tips! Could you tell me what size brad you used on the bottom bar? Also, are your bottom bars grooved? When you said you put two brads in the bottom bar joint, do you mean two brads at each joint, or two brads total, one at each end? Sorry for the questions, but you seem to have the answers I've been looking for! Thanks Mark ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 16:33:12 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: Glue and Nails MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Kyle & All, > When I got my first frame parts a year ago, I tried nailing them with some > small brads, which split the wood. I wasted my first frame. From then on, > I used epoxy glue and never considered nailing. > How long does the glue you use hold up? Do the frames last? I have considered doing this but was afraid the frames would not last. Keith Malone Chugiak, Alaska USA starrier@yahoo.com http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney Check out current weather in my area and 5 day forecast; http://www.wx.com/myweather.cfm?ZIP=99654 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 20:00:27 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tim Smith Subject: Re: Glue and Nails MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I soak the ends of the grooved bottom bars in water for a few minutes and then nail them with a brad nailer and very few ever split. But every now and then one does. Anyone have experience with brad guns on grooved > bottom bars? > > Mark ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 20:26:29 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: dan hendricks Subject: Preserving supers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Bee Liners: Appropo this discussion, be sure to avoid the mistake I made for years: If you add lifting cleats to your supers, as I do, don't make them so long that they cover the finger joint end grain. This prevents renewing the sealant in subsequent years. By the way, I use marine spar varnish for this and for the horizontal edge surfaces of contact between boxes which are slow to dry. Is there something better to use for this purpose? Dan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Greetings - Send FREE e-cards for every occasion! http://greetings.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 00:12:39 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Garry Libby Subject: Re: Glue and Nails In-Reply-To: <200202280407.g1S434le018076@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, As a test a few years ago I did several dozen frames using only Titebond II Glue, those frames seem like they are welded together. That glue is waterproof so moisture should have no effect. Garry Libby Attleboro, Massachusetts, USA --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.324 / Virus Database: 181 - Release Date: 2/14/2002 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 10:50:43 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Chris's Comb MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Donald > This idea of taking casts of the cells is quite clever. Credit for the idea, should go to Chris. I was interested to see for myself. > Although there would be no record of how many generations had been raised, > one could do it for new comb, fairly new comb and old comb. we may yet get the information that you seek on the number of cocoons present as the sample came from a top bar hive of known age. Best Regards & 73s... Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website... http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 22:28:49 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Thomas Cornick Subject: Re: Radiation damage MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/26/02 11:59:39 AM Eastern Standard Time, queenbee@GIL.COM.AU writes: > As the same irradiation process is used for a lot of medical equipment and > condoms, you would hope Allen's scenario does not apply. > > Well I can understand reusing medical equipment because of the expense but we just buy new condoms. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 10:39:02 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Web Pages: (was: Re: # of Pollination Sites) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Dave G & all > How do other beekeeper webmasters do it? Allen Dick has a tremendous > site, without selling anything. It must cost plenty, in time, if not cash, I do not consider I am a "master" at webwork, but I do not see the "cost" element that you complain about. ISP = free. 50 meg webspace = free. any software that is needed, that you cannot write for yourself, = free. Uploading files = (in UK) £0.01 per minute or free if you have a surfing deal. If you write the pages yourself instead of using WYSIWIG software then they do not take up much webspace (my entire 970 pages and 1800 images occupy less than 10 meg). Time, it takes plenty, but in my case I am a disabled old git and I might as well spend my time at a computer rather than dozing in the armchair. > I have a strong aversion to advertisements on web pages. So do I. > I HATE banner adds, and had already concluded > that if this kind of support is necessary, I > will close the page. All my work is achieved without any adverts, but I can see the time coming when I may have to pay for that privilage. Then perhaps I will turn my attention to model aircraft?:-) Best Regards & 73s... Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website... http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 07:06:31 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: No Way Backwards - The Pesticide Treadmill MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob & Liz wrote: > The original post referred to the Coumaphos resistant mites found by = > Jeff Pettis in bees in Maine and in Florida. Actually they were found by Tony Jadczak, the Maine State Inspector and Jeff was called in to see what he found. The bees were a pollinators who goes between Maine and Fla. Bill Truesdell Bath, Me ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 07:41:20 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: BeeFarmer Subject: Re: Glue and Nails MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I use a brad nailer on grooved bottom bars. I also use glue just to make sure they last for a long time. I sometimes get a brad to shoot out the side but that is normally when I am not paying enough attention to what I am doing ... must be the old age! BeeFarmer Getting Kids involved in 4H Beekeeping http://www.homestead.com/BeeKeepers/ > Anyone have experience with brad guns on grooved > > bottom bars? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 07:59:29 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: No Way Backwards - The Pesticide Treadmill MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Bill and All, Bob wrote: > The original post referred to the Coumaphos resistant mites found by = =3D > Jeff Pettis in bees in Maine and in Florida. Bill wrote: Actually they were found by Tony Jadczak, the Maine State Inspector and Jeff was called in to see what he found. The bees were a pollinators who goes between Maine and Fla. Actually coumaphos resistant mites had already been found in Florida but = not with the amount of resistance shown in the above bees.=20 The resistance level of those varroa was hard for me to believe. I = believe there is a logical explanation for why those varroa were so = resistant and I could list possible scenarios but all would be guesses. = without looking at the beekeepers treatment records, methods and = testing. The bottom line is the owner of those bees was not keeping close track = of his mite loads or the problem would have been detected a year earlier = at least. Having went through three years dealing with fluvalinate = resistant mites several years ago I can say from experience resistance = does not happen overnight. Sincerely, Bob Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 09:31:05 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: Glue and Nails Comments: cc: mcoldiron@YAHOO.COM In-Reply-To: <200202272335.g1RNKcnI011920@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed >Now I have a pneumatic brad gun, >but haven't tried it yet. Anyone have experience with brad guns on grooved >bottom bars? I also use a pneumatic brad gun with 1 1/4" brads for both top and bottom bars, two in each joint (8 nails per frame) with glue (titebond 2). Have had almost no splitting in pine, a bit more in popular and oak, etc. Typically it's not enough splitting to require replacing the bottom bar (considering it's glued as well) I normally make my own frames, and use whatever scrap wood I have in the shop. I use plastic foundation, grooved bottom bars, and top bars. I simply assemble them with the foundation in place (no wedge on the top bar). -Tim ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 09:27:53 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Bee Biology Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Dee Lusby wrote: >The queen acquires exact traits from the workers as she is an exact copy, as no queen can be raised except she be born a worker first and then choosen by same to be changed into a queen as they (the workers) construct queen cells. Comment: The queen "acquires" no traits from the workers. I have a real problem with this pseudo-biological explanation for what is a highly speculative theory. Science isn't everything, but it also isn't *nothing*. I don't have a college degree in any scientific field but the above goes against what I learned in elementary school. The queen is not an exact copy of the workers, any more than I am an exact copy of my brother. In fact, in a colony of bees, there may be thousands of sisters with many different fathers. Hardly exact copies. But a queen cannot inherit anything from her sisters, any more than I inherited anything from my sister. Also, the queen is not "born a worker first". The egg is an undifferentiated female, with the possibility of becoming a worker, a queen or something in between, depending on when it the queen rearing process is initiated. pb ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 08:45:27 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Pollination sites MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit While I am slightly embarrassed, I didn't realize until I read his comments that Dave Green looked at his site as the basis of a commercial enterprise. Honestly, I had only ever looked at Dave's considerable and interesting set of photographs. Perhaps if I had looked at the "pollination" portion of the site I would have realized the commercial possibilities. I certainly do not think that sites funded with public monies should intentionally compete with private sites. Moreover, the mere existence of a site funded from public sources would deter further development of private sites that might compete, and that is also not desirable. Lloyd Mailto:Lloyd@rossrounds.com. Lloyd Spear Owner, Ross Rounds, Inc. The finest in comb honey production. Visit our web site at http://www.rossrounds.com. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 11:06:55 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Kyle Lewis Subject: Re: Glue and Nails to Keith and Fellow Beekeepers, You wrote: >How long does the glue you use hold up? Do the frames last? I have >considered doing this but was afraid the frames would not last. The Weldbond glue should hold up for the life of the wood. I have heard that epoxy gets brittle after 5 years. But I won't be throwing frames around, either. Unless I get stung... As for the life of the wood, I am considering soaking the frames in food grade mineral oil. (My top bars are soaked in it anyway.) This should help preserve the frames. Cheers, Kyle ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 10:43:14 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jerry J Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Glue and Nails In-Reply-To: <200202281627.g1SGCDls029147@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 11:06 AM 2/28/02 -0500, you wrote: >As for the life of the wood, I am considering soaking the frames in food >grade mineral oil. (My top bars are soaked in it anyway.) This should >help preserve the frames. > I have never seen the wood of any frame deteriorate inside a hive that has bees in it. We have 30+ yr old frames. Remember, you have propolis and wax throughout. I've seen broken frames and frames damaged by wax moth, but unless you leave the frames out in the weather, you will see a patina develop on old wood in a hive. Be careful of getting to helpful, the bees know what they are doing. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 16:19:42 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Donald Franson Subject: Re: Chris's Comb Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Donald: Bees do not remove their cocoons they just varnish over them to get them ready for the queen to lay her next egg. _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 16:24:43 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Donald Aitken Subject: Re: Chris's Comb MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Donald: This would mean that the cell size gets smaller and smaller until it is so small that the bees can no longer use it. I have not seen this happen over a twenty five year period. Best regards Donald Aitken ----- Original Message ----- From: "Donald Franson" > Donald: Bees do not remove their cocoons they just varnish over them to get > them ready for the queen to lay her next egg. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 18:47:38 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Foundation Mills In-Reply-To: <200202251836.g1PHIbpa012527@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi to all on BEE-L Peter Borst wrote: One appears to be made of copper or bronze, is in very good condition; quite beautiful to look at, in fact. Perhaps this is the oldest one? It prints out ten cells in two inches (50.8 mm or 5.08 per cell). Reply: Does the access include usage? If so, if 1891 dipping and milling was done as illustrated in 1891 AI Root ABC & XYZ and the foundation was not stretched as milled (could use plastic sleeving here to avoid sticking and prevent stretching) it would come out a size smaller, if milled directly from the dipping boards to the embossing rollers, or made plain sheets, warmed real good in warm water, prior to embossing. Todays methods with assembly lines do the opposite now. YOu sheet rolls of wax prior to, then run thru smoothers and then emboss the imprint and many times a stretch (fudge factor is incurred. Regards, Dee A. Lusby __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Greetings - Send FREE e-cards for every occasion! http://greetings.yahoo.com