From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 07:37:24 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-86.6 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,AWL, MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Delivered-To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4687748F68 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 07:28:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SCP3s8010167 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 07:28:39 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 07:28:39 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0211C" To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Message-ID: Content-Length: 64400 Lines: 1463 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 11:19:01 -0500 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Send an E-Mail Before Nov 18 - It's Cheaper Than Fighting Pests MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Time runs out on Sunday, Nov 17th. That's this Sunday. Unless a very large number of you object, the USA will set a new low in "World Trade", and set a precedent that will allow the shipment of queens, packages, pollen, and "honey for bee feed" without even samples being taken at port-of-entry to detect diseases or pests. Even if you are not a US beekeeper, these "rules" could be forced upon your country next. Let's halt the nonsense here and now. No matter where you live, please send an e-mail before Nov 18, to: regulations@aphis.usda.gov with the subject: Docket No. 98-109-1 Please ask them to: Extend the comment period to Jan 31, 2003 And, just in case they don't extend, consider adding a statement that you would like to see an port-of-entry inspection and testing program implemented, as is done by every other WTO trading partner with all imports of live animals and plants. Please include your name and snail-mail postal address (they require it). The rules as proposed overtly ALLOW the shipper to send live bees to the continental US with ANY or ALL of the following diseases, simply by listing the pests or diseases on the "certificate": 1) American Foulbrood 2) Chalkbrood 3) European Foulbrood 4) Nosema 5) Sacbrood 6) Any/all of 9 Different Viruses 7) Any/all of 5 Different mites, including varroa Why? Because any pest or disease sighted ANYWHERE in your country is (under these rules) not one that you can object to getting more of. The proposed rule would also allow the importation of beeswax that has been no more than "liquefied", and "honey for bee feed" that has simply been heated to 100 C for 30 mins, neither process having ANY practical impact on diseases that might be latent in these products. Why? We don't know either. It appears to be due to a complete lack of basic knowledge of bee pests and diseases. And yeah, suuuuuure - we expect all that "honey for bee feed" to be kept out of the retail human honey supply, don't we? Yeah, right... The proposal even allows individuals to "import" live bees in their LUGGAGE! With nothing more than a "certificate". Yes, anyone. A very unusual "gift item". So "bee smuggling" will be much, much "easier". ...but don't dare try to carry a penknife on an airplane - you will be arrested. Below are the links to the relevant documents. http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=2002_register&docid=02-20941-filed http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=2002_register&docid=02-20941-filed.pdf http://www.aphis.usda.gov/ppq/pra/honeybees/ Thanks! jim ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 07:10:36 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "TxBeeFarmer (Mark Coldiron)" Organization: The Little ~ Coldiron Farm Subject: Re: one frame of comb honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply: Aaron, what if the round section super is placed on the hive first, allowing the bees to get started on the sections, then adding one or more supers of drawn comb. Will they stop work on round section super even though they've started on it and being first? Or, how about adding the round section super and letting the bee to get started, then adding one super of foundation. Wouldn't they finish the round section super before starting on foundation? I've often wondered about mixing rounds and regular supers too. West Texas Mark Aaron Morris wrote: > Impossible. The bees will ignore the comb honey frame and concentrate on > the remaining frames. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 14:27:15 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Paul D. Domich" Organization: Information Technology Laboratory Subject: Overwintering of Apistan Strips MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My question is whether apistan strips can be left in the hive over the winter after the queen has finished laying eggs for the year and removed months later before the queen begins laying again. My understanding is that varroa mites build intolerance to apistan through genetic mutations that would occur only when the queen is laying eggs and not during the cold winter months. thnx Paul Boulder, CO email domich@boulder.nist.gov ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 11:34:24 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Comb honey and extracted honey from the same hive ? Mark Hubbard asked whether he could produce a single SUPER comb honey on a hive, and also produce a super (or more) of honey for extraction. However, the subject matter in the message heading asked about producing a single FRAME of comb honey, an entirely different proposition. Aaron, more or less correctly, said it is not possible to produce a single FRAME of comb honey. For some reason, I get this question (privately) several times a year. As Aaron said, it is very difficult to get the bees to drawn comb honey foundation in a super, if the rest of the frames are all ready drawn. However, if all the frames have only foundation, including those intended for extraction, this may go ok. Put the comb honey frame in the center of the super. Producing an entire super of comb honey on a hive also used to produce honey for extraction is an entirely different subject, and is more than just feasible; it is done all the time. The best way and easiest way to do this is to use a hive consisting of a deep and a medium, with the medium on the TOP. When the honey flow starts, put the ROUND SECTION comb honey super above the medium. Do not use a queen excluder. When the comb honey super is filled and capped, harvest it and put the super(s) on for extracted honey. A couple of caveats: 1. Use normal swarm control procedures 2. Do not attempt to put the comb honey super above two deeps. 90% of the time it will not work. 3. Do not attempt to produce cut comb honey in this manner, as the queen will proceed to lay in the comb honey super, ruining it for comb honey production. This procedure can also be used with only one deep as a brood nest, but then swarm control is much more critical; which is another way of saying that the beekeeper needs to have more expertise and experience to be successful. Good luck, Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner of Ross Rounds, manufacturer of comb honey equipment for beekeepers and Sundance pollen traps. http://www.rossrounds.com Lloyd@rossrounds.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 11:01:09 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: one frame of comb honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Aaron & all > Impossible. The bees will ignore the comb honey frame and concentrate on > the remaining frames. Not in agreement here... I have not tried it with round section plastic frames, but I have used hanging section frames (of the square British type). To be honest I cannot remember ever using just one single one in a super, but groups of two, three, four or five have been regularly used. A strong flow helps, but is not essential. Tinplate dividers keep the faces of the comb flat, but the bees will work the sections with or without dividers. Best Regards & 73s... Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website... http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 11:47:10 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Kilty Subject: Re: bee flowers In-Reply-To: <001601c28984$95be99e0$0200a8c0@Isabelle> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <001601c28984$95be99e0$0200a8c0@Isabelle>, Inger Lamb writes >Yes there was very little response to my request for bee flower >references, not too much of a surprise as I had already spent quite some >time looking around the One of Eva Crane's books give a huge list of plants (all families?) with honey yields. Try Crane Eva Honey: A Comprehensive Survey Heinemann 1975 -- James Kilty ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 17:54:03 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: anaphylaxis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, I read in the English translation of the German book"Bienenhaltung"by the famous German beekeeper Werner Melzer the following about anaphylaxis first aid. I post for your comments as I had never heard of the method. First aid for swelling inside the mouth or throat- this could lead to suffocation: Sprinkle table salt all over the oral cavity by the spoonful (make sure none of the salt is swallowed!) spit out , and repeat several times . Get the victim to a doctor as quickly as possible. Bob ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 02:09:19 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: analog honey A couple of years ago there was concern about analog honey. Has anyone seen, heard, or read more on this? Regards, Dick Allen ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 10:37:39 -0500 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: analog honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dick Allen said: > A couple of years ago there was concern about analog honey. > Has anyone seen, heard, or read more on this? Not to worry - science trudged on since the initial "scare" over the "honey analog". One can now detect as little as 1% invert sugars or HFCS in honey using a technique called "infrared spectroscopy". There have been a number of different papers on the technique, and one can find at least the abstracts of many of these papers using google, searching for: +infrared +spectroscopy +honey (And yeah, ya got your "near-infrared", your "mid-infrared", and your occasional use of "fast Fourier transforms". Don't sweat the details. Same exact game. Different toys.) Of course, one must ask if these techniques are being used in port-of-entry testing. I dunno. I'm not sure if the capital equipment required would have any other application for food commodities. The company is "Dhampur Invertos Ltd." of India. They are still around, but they now call the product "golden syrup". http://www.sugarindia.com/golden.htm Their web site is an absolute hoot. It looks like the owner's 8-year-old son designed it using EVERY crayon in his box. A classic example of how some web pages can actually hurt your eyes, introducing both visual and cognitive whiplash. Some of the claims made are also noteworthy: "It has an inimitable honey-like sweet taste..." (So, let me get this straight... the taste is "inimitable", but it is also "honey-like". But wait - either it does NOT taste like honey, and would thus have an "inimitable" taste, or it DOES taste like honey, and would thereby clearly be "imitable"... by honey.) "This appetizing syrup is prepared using superior quality sugar under controlled process conditions reroute a biotechnological pathway." (Quick! Re-route the biotechnological pathway! There's a accident at the Interstate 95 onramp!) "...and the syrup is micro-filtered to ensure the highest level of purity..." (Wow, I had no idea that with simple filtration, one could "ensure purity". Alert the media! I smell a Nobel Prize!) "We do not call our Sweet-n-SweetTM Golden Syrup 'organic' but yes-it is close-to-organic!" (If they COULD call it "organic", we can be sure they would.) Some references can still be found to the old name for the product - "honey analog". http://www.khoj.com/Science_and_Technology/Agriculture/Sugarcane/ I have used the empty plastic shells of obsolete/dead computer displays as swarm traps, so I should call my honey "DIGITAL Honey". Much more modern than "Analog Honey". :) jim ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 13:04:30 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: analog honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Jim: Thanks for posting the URL. As I recall a while back that company was trying to actually market their product as an artificial honey. Some other remarks they made I found interesting: “[our product] is healthier than any other brand! It is free from harmful chemicals like phosphoric acid, formic acid, sulphur dioxide, preservatives, flocculants, surfactants, or any bleaching agents or viscosity reducers. So you eat a healthy sweetener when you eat our [our product]” hmm, no formic acid... In their FAQ section: “Question. They say that chemically, honey and invert sugar are the same. Is it true? Answer: This statement is totally acceptable. Chemically, honey is zilch but invert sugar. It has a mishmash of both glucose and fructose. The only disparity amid the two is that the honey- bee processes honey, and invert sugar is man-made!” Regards, Dick Allen ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 18:44:01 +0000 Reply-To: pdillon@club-internet.fr Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Organization: Home Subject: Re: analog honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I prefer, relating to the detection of HFCS adulteration in honey to ask the question: Why are such techniques investigated, researched and developed, if they are not put into use to defend against illegal activities such as honey dilution? If the responsible authorities have the tools - and problems continue to exist - the lack in man power or low priority rating suggests an unwillingness to sort the problem. Lobby, lobby and lobby - the only way to get things moved in present political conditions. Peter. PS - who's going to be in Niagara Fall at the Joint Canadian/US convention? ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 12:12:54 -0500 Reply-To: lhhubbell@johnstown.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Leland Hubbell Organization: Tekoa Subject: Beekeepers Meeting - Central Ohio MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'll pass on information on a Beekeepers Meeting scheduled by the OSU Extension in Licking County, OH. Thursday, November 21, 7:30 PM at the Licking County Ag Center, Newark, OH. 771 East Main Street, Suite 103. "Dr. James Tew, OSU's bee specialist will discuss the eveloution of the mite situation in bees, management of the new hive beetlw and provide an information update on the bee situation in Ohio." Location is off St. Rt. 16; use O'Bannon exit. (Just west about a half-mile of the biggest picnic basket you ever saw, Longeberger's 6-story high office building. ) Leland Hubbell ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 23:14:46 -0500 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Overwintering of Apistan Strips MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > My question is whether apistan strips can be left in > the hive over the winter I'd say "no". The label also says "no". George Imrie would say "NO!!!!!", and you would need the services of a skilled surgeon to have your eardrums repaired. (Let's all hope that George regains his voice quickly, or I'll have to drive up to MD and wire a 2000-watt PA system to the battery of his scooter. Hey George - 6 Volt or 12 Volt??) I don't know of anyone who would say "yes". > My understanding is that varroa mites build intolerance to apistan > through genetic mutations that would occur only when the queen > is laying eggs and not during the cold winter months But the queen starts laying much earlier than you might suspect, and the product is designed to be used for a specific limited period when the weather is warm enough to let the chemical have some effect. Yes, your reasoning is very sound, but if beekeepers won't follow the label instructions on a pesticide, we can't expect anyone else to do so. jim ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 03:11:14 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: ellendic Subject: Re: Oxalic Acid Evaporation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I promised some pictures of Cor's OA vapour application unit when I got them up. Here they are, at http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/Diary/2002/Diary111002.htm#oxalic allen ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 17:47:23 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Wesley A Voigt Jr Subject: 1860 Honey Storage MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello all I have friends who are civil war reenactors and they want to know how honey was stored in the 1860s -- what kind of container it was kept in and what kind would have been used if the honey was to be given as a gift. Where could they find a simalar container now? Thanks for the help. Wes Voigt ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 18:36:47 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Overwintering of Apistan Strips MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Paul, What makes you think there is no brood rearing in the winter? Some strains are more prone to winter brood rearing than others, and there may be variatons with local climate. As a sweeping generalisation brood rearing, if it has been reduced to nothing starts to pick up again when daylight increases, ie in January, often the coldest part of the year outside but nice and snug in the middle of the cluster. To answer your question, yes you CAN overwinter with Apistan strips in the hive, but it would be a stupid thing to do because you will accelerate the advance of resistant mites. The instructions on the packet are there for a purpose. Read and heed them. Chris ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 20:18:10 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: Overwintering of Apistan Strips I'm with Chris on this one. Please don't!! I bought some bees last year which I treated with Apistan, and nothing happened. The mites just went on killing my bees. The person I bought them from later admitted he kept the strips in much longer than the label recommended. I switched to Checkmite, and the mites were killed off immediately. I spoke to a wonderful lady at the Farmer's Market today, who I met last summer. She had three beehives which her children were working as a (what we in the States call) a 4-H project. I almost begged her to let me come out there and treat the hives for mites, but her father in law sees himself as an expert, and hasn't much time for new-fangled ideas. Well, she admitted her biggest hive was dead, as long term Bee-L'ers would expect, and the other two are very weak. She was almost in tears as she said she knew her dad-in-law was wrong, but what could she do? In this area, it was and is widespread to keep apistan strips in all year, and the county ag commissioner told me that I was the only one with a Sec. 18 permit to use Checkmite. On the one hand I'm glad, as I have a tremendous advantage over the other guys, most of who's hives are dead. But what happens when they get an illegal source of the active ingredient in Checkmite? Bottom line is follow the label. Tim Vaughan tvaughan@charter.net ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 18:22:03 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Richard Yarnell Organization: Oregon VOS Subject: Re: Overwintering of Apistan Strips In-Reply-To: <16b.172ff020.2b08308f@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Lest there be any confusion: you may not do it if you abide by the label which is the law in such matters. It is likely that one of the reasons mites have adapted so quickly is failure of some bee-keepers to follow the rules, whether out of ignorance, laziness, or as a cost cutting measure. We're all paying sooner than was necessary. On Sat, 16 Nov 2002 CSlade777@AOL.COM wrote: > ... it would be a stupid thing to do because you will accelerate the > advance of resistant mites. The instructions on the packet are there for a > purpose. Read and heed them. ----------------------- Richard Yarnell, SHAMBLES WORKSHOPS | No gimmick we try, no "scientific" Beavercreek, OR. Makers of fine | fix we attempt, will save our planet Wooden Canoes, The Stack(R) urban | until we reduce the population. Let's composter, Raw Honey | leave our kids a decent place to live. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 21:25:02 -0500 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: analog honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Dillon said: > Why are such techniques investigated, researched and developed, > if they are not put into use to defend against illegal activities such > as honey dilution? Well, first one must admit that such scrutiny is justified, and the recent "Chinese Honey" incidents may provide sufficient evidence that it is to a rational person. But this is not all that is required - it just is not that simple. Second, one must admit that "science" is not optional, and must be given equal weight to "commerce", even in commerce. While this may seem obvious, the gang currently in possession of the White House tried to eliminate most bee-related federal research this year. We still wait for Congress to vote on the dozen or so government budget bills that fund operations, and we hope that the hard-won restoration of funding for existing research programs remains in place. Sadly, it appears that the funding bills will not be voted upon until a newly-elected Republican majority is seated, and Republicans love to make a great show of "cutting spending" for anything that is not intended to explode. So there is still a risk that we may soon not have much "science" to toss at subjects like "bees" or "honey". > If the responsible authorities... Sadly, there is no proof to support the claim that the gang currently in possession are actual "authorities" on anything. There's also no proof to support any contention that they are "responsible" in any way. There is much evidence to contradict the claim. More every day, it seems. > have the tools - and problems continue to exist - the lack in man > power or low priority rating suggests an unwillingness to sort the problem. Here is the problem in a nutshell: 1) Anyone suggesting that such testing is required would be dismissed as a "protectionist producer". Since domestic producers of honey in any country are the only voices that attempt to defend the "purity", "healthy image", and "bio-security" of honey, the critique would be strictly correct - they CAN be accurately described as "producers" (i.e. beekeepers). If one asked importer/packers about the issue, they would object to such additional scrutiny as "a de-facto tariff on imported honey, costly, and illegal". 2) Even if the costs of such testing were borne by the federal government, thus eliminating the "tariff" complaint, the packer/importers would (quite rightly) demand that similar testing be applied to domestic honey at government expense, so as to create a "level playing field" for honey. Producers would (stupidly) object to this. Fights would break out in bars. Thoughtful pieces would be written in newsletters. At some point, some "impartial" party would drag out the usual propaganda about "the free market" being the best solution to all problems, and the game would end. Everyone would go home, no winner would be declared, and all would be exhausted from the effort of playing the game. 3) Due to a lack of adequate science education, there is, at best, about 2% of the US population who can even SPELL things like "infrared spectroscopy" or "Fast Fourier Transform". No one knows how many might be capable of learning how to use the expensive toys required to do the tests, but anyone already capable would not be happy with civil servant pay, let alone want to work the night shift at some dockside "customs shed". 4) No matter what beekeepers might do, the US will continue to import honey, since the total demand exceeds domestic production. Even if domestic production were somehow ramped up to equal US consumption, there would still be a large bulk of honey being sold in the US that could only be described as "the cheapest honey possible", which means honey of often marginal quality from other countries. The importer/packers are decent people, not criminals, but they certainly do not want their profits endangered by concern over problems that they would (perhaps rightly) claim are too rare to bother worrying about, and too tiny to be a valid "health concern". At some point in the future, the "Wal-Mart-ing" of the US may be complete, and one will be forced to choose between buying well-crafted artifacts of a prior age purely for their practical value at antique stores and second-hand shops, buying the work of local cottage-industry artisans, or buying things made as cheaply as possible in places like China. (Wal-Mart does not want to merely be the leading retailer in the US, they want to be the ONLY retailer.) At that point, beekeepers will find themselves "outside" the "traditional" economy, selling direct to consumers rather than through wholesale and/or retail. Shortly thereafter, consumers will realize that in order to BE consumers, they must first produce something to make money with which to consume. But by then, it will likely be too late. We won't have any "industrial capacity" to speak of for anything but high-tech weapons. We will have to learn all over again how to be "producers". Perhaps at that point "producers" will be viewed as other than "protectionists", but not before. What happens at that point is best described in the book "The Cave" by Jose Saramago. I'd suggest everyone give it a read, but here is a synopsis for those who can't be bothered. (OK, so he says he's a "communist", but he still writes a good story.) http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/1114/p19s01-bogn.html > Lobby, lobby and lobby - the only way to get things moved in present political conditions. Sadly, "lobbying" is not a skill that has been demonstrated by US beekeepers to date. Skill with social insects is not a traditional "social skill". Professional lobbyists are beyond the budgets of most beekeeping groups, and the largest groups are set up as "charities", which cannot lobby and still remain (untaxed) charities. Unlike the French beekeepers, who appear en masse at their nation's capital in full bee gear, with signs protesting against "Gaucho", US beekeepers apparently cannot even be bothered to attend public hearings to which they are INVITED. Recently, a series of hearings were held in Hawaii, California, and Washington DC, and beekeepers were invited and asked to express and listen to various views on "imports". I went to the hearings in DC, and found that ONE other beekeeper had shown up. I'd guess that at least 500 beekeepers were within an hour's drive of the meeting. So, there were two beekeepers standing against the combined forces of the US government, international World Trade, Australia, and New Zealand. It was sad. It wasn't even fair. We mopped the floor with them in straight sets. Finished them off in time for lunch. :) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 21:33:26 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Donald Aitken Subject: Re: Overwintering of Apistan Strips MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Chris: I am interested in finding out why everyone believes that leaving the strips in over winter would produce resistant mites. Perhaps the manufacturer could point us to any studies that were done to establish the recommended 42 day application period. It would appear that it is more to ensure that two rounds of brood are treated than to discourage resistance build up. Since drones take 24 days to emerge, and are the favoured brood for mites, one would think that 48 days would be a better choice. Best regards --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.419 / Virus Database: 235 - Release Date: 13/11/2002 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 00:26:28 +0000 Reply-To: pdillon@club-internet.fr Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Organization: Home Subject: Re: [Bee-L] analog honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jim mentions many reasonable comments on why honey imports would not be tested at site of entry. 1) Anyone suggesting that such testing is required would be dismissed as a "protectionist producer"...... This might be the case that is placed at the front of a counter argument against enforcement of existing procedures. But, law is law, and there are legal requirements in place to protect the consumer. It is not just the producers who should be demanding protection. As far as I know, there is no legal support for the trading of adulterated materials. U.N Codex al. has tried to define what is internationally proper, as has the E.U. - not perfect, but far better than nothing. Added to the problem, is that many beekeepers are fearful of exposing what is being traded. For some reason they expect by being silent, the problem will go away, with the consumer never being the wiser. False! 2) Even if the costs of such testing were borne by the federal government, thus eliminating the "tariff" complaint.... It is on to the responsible - (by this I mean, individuals/ associations who have taken it upon themselves to serve the rest) falls the duty to ensure that the correct message is delivered to their associates. The need to protect a product is not on that rests at national level - but one that needs international co-operation. In our case, beekeepers for eg. in the States must realise that apiculturalists supplying proper material have a right to the so called open market. If the honey arrives at a french, british port, the same. (taking any health issues into account! - yes I sent a mail!). If a consignment of adulterated material arrived in France, then I would expect the support of others from wherever to halt the trade. International pressure should be on the authorities to ensure that all available techniques were applied towards this end. 3) Due to a lack of adequate science education, there is, at best, about 2% of the US population who can even SPELL things like "infrared spectroscopy".... Obvious reply - sort out the this domestic problem by educating to required levels needed in the workplace. Pay! - can' t go into that on such a list. 4) Agreed, to become auto sufficient would be difficult - and possibly an unwise move. But then to equate the resulting importation of honey as also an acceptance of poor quality - meaning contaminated , is totally wrong. Cheaper, no doubt, but below legal requirements - NO. How far the customer is going to tolerate generic produce? - not for me to guess - as I can't, but in Europe there is a wide movement insisting on local produce being available at the side of imported. People are demanding choice. Not only that, but how it is produced, where, and what it contains. Lobby - any person can put their point forward - might be a little ineffective. But that is what the competition wants the opposition to think. Again, join associations, demand those in position represent. If they are unable to then again group up until an effective mass is achieved. If it is thought that getting the vocal french beekeepers to act together was a piece of cake - come over here and see the efforts required to fight our corner. If the US beekeepers (taking your example) are a little laid back - then they should accept gracefully what lands in their laps at a later date. As far as I can perceive - it is a general fault in the average beekeeper, that they too readily moan but accept what happens. In previous mails, I have suggested that there is a need to plan for the future, then organise. Easy to say I know - but IMHO, that's what our representatives are put in place to do. Regards Peter ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 18:18:10 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Richard Yarnell Organization: Oregon VOS Subject: Re: [Bee-L] Lobbying (was "analog honey") In-Reply-To: <3DD833B4.7899F8A@club-internet.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Peter Dillon is absolutely right. In the US in this example, the squeaky wheel gets greased. In order to be heard, the squeaky wheel has to be squeaky all the time but on point. The Internet makes this easy to do. 1) A group, this case, domestic bee-keepers must be informed about legislative and regulatory issues which will affect them; 2) Members of the group must know how to contact their own Congressional delegation, their State legislators; the appropriate people in the Extension service in their state; House and Senate Committee members and chairs, and staff people for their own State and Federal delegations. That may sound daunting, but it really isn't. Every part of the Federal Government has a web-site; every member of Congress has one and some have email addresses separate from their web sites. Many Committees have web pages and the means by which you can address your concerns directly to the Committees. If you can't reach both the chair and ranking minority leader of a committee, you can always use their web site mail routines. Many of those exclude addresses not within their state: there is always a valid address for their own offices in the state. (I always provide my real address in the body of my letters and explain that I'm writing to them as members of an important committee.) Most mail programs provide the means to segregate addresses in folders. It saves a lot of time to do that as you accumulate addresses. The same thing is true with your browser. Make a folder for political contacts and save the "contact" or "Mail to" page for each contact. It will save time in the long run because you start on that page rather than the home page. You can usually get staff email addresses if you ask. Most Congressional offices divide the work and assign "specialists." It is often more important to contact the staff specialist than the Congress critter, although there is nothing quite so satisfying as to get a response from the Legislator directly written while they're stuck in the airport somewhere. I've been told, that organized email is less effective than individual email unless the organized email reaches some magical number of pieces (usually a very large number). For that reason, your own style and voice are important. The facts, however, should be solid. Shorter is better. However, if the issue is complex, make sure you use enough space to fill in the blanks. A newspaper format is useful: the first paragraph should describe the issue and your conclusion or request. Then go over it in more detail point by point. If you have references, by all means include them. If they exist, urls (http: addresses) make staff happy. If they don't then Title and author of books, journals (include dates), or newspaper and magazine articles. Even citations of some email articles can be useful. Once you have your basic letter, it's a simple matter to copy/paste just enough to make each one specific to its recipient. We have folks on this list who keep track of issues that the rest of us might not otherwise hear about. I they would gently hint that letters are needed and to provide the facts or where the facts can be found, the rest of us can provide letters from all over the country. You'll be amazed at how effective it is to have your Senator or Congressman go to a Committee member to advocate on your issue and to have the Committee member aware of the issue. If you can help the staff by doing some of the leg work for them... you'll be well loved. Post 9-11 in the US, snail mail to Washington DC is still slowed by testing and close examination at the Post Office. Send snail mail to your legislator's local office. Email gained some attention and validity because it got through when snail mail didn't. Staff likes email better than snail mail because they can distribute it quickly and because it is easy for them to track down embedded links to references you provide. I promise to be squeaky whenever I can. If all of us do, we might well get the industry some needed attention. --------------- Richard Yarnell, SHAMBLES WORKSHOPS | No gimmick we try, no "scientific" Beavercreek, OR. Makers of fine | fix we attempt, will save our planet Wooden Canoes, The Stack(R) urban | until we reduce the population. Let's composter, Raw Honey | leave our kids a decent place to live. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 23:02:28 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Rick Green Subject: Help...what are the main issues facing beekeepers today! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have been invited to talk on a major radio program about beekeeping. What do you believe are the major isssues facing beekeepers today? I would appreciate your thoughts. Rick Green 8 Hickory Grove Lane Ballston Lake, NY 12019 (518) 384-2539 gothoney@aol.com honeyetc.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 08:17:53 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: 1860 Honey Storage Comments: cc: WesVoigtJr@AOL.COM In-Reply-To: <182.11fd34c4.2b0824fb@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 05:47 PM 11/16/02 -0500, you wrote: > I have friends who are civil war reenactors and they want to know how >honey was stored in the 1860s -- what kind of container it was kept in and >what kind would have been used if the honey was to be given as a gift. Where >could they find a simalar container now? Thanks for the help. Ohio State's extension in Wooster, Ohio has a small bee museum. From what I remember they would likely have containers from this period. They had many glass containers of all sorts as well as larger metal containers, 3-5 gallon rectangular metal containers. See http://www.oardc.ohio-state.edu/beelab/museum/ -Tim ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 09:29:38 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Susan Nielsen Organization: Oregon VOS Subject: Re: 1860 Honey Storage In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021118080811.07e70280@pop3.wcoil.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 18 Nov 2002, Tim Arheit wrote: > Ohio State's extension in Wooster, Ohio has a small bee museum. From what > I remember they would likely have containers from this period. They had many > glass containers of all sorts as well as larger metal containers, 3-5 gallon > rectangular metal containers. I have also seen small stoneware crocks inscribed "Honey." These were doubtless for personal use. They turn up on eBay now and then, and I have seen them in antiques shops. Covered pails were sometimes used for larger storage. My grandfather had an old dented one of tin, with a hinged cover that lapped the rim of the pail. He claimed it had been passed down from his dad's dad, which would put it in about the right era. (Now that I remember that pail, I wonder what happened to it? Grandpa used it like it was any old pail for honey.) Susan -- Susan Layne Nielsen, Shambles Workshops |"...Gently down the Beavercreek, OR, USA -- snielsen@orednet.org |stream..." -- Anon. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Purveyors of fine honey, Jacob Sheep, Ashford spinning products and Interweave books ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 13:09:23 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: Overwintering of Apistan Strips In-Reply-To: <001601c28df2$78d210b0$2ed3ad8e@HAL> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 09:33 PM 11/16/02 -0700, you wrote: >Since >drones take 24 days to emerge, and are the favoured brood for mites, one >would think that 48 days would be a better choice. But they are eggs for 3 days and I belive mites don't move in until they are larva. So the brood cycle we are really talking about is 0 day old larva to adult, not 0 day old eggs to adult. Hence 42 days. And, don't think for a moment that bees don't raise brood when you don't expect them too. I was finding new drones outside my hives in February last year (in Ohio). And large numbers of them when I finally could open the hives in March. I does make me worry that even with a very low mite this fall, there may be a lot of time for their population to explode late winter before I can get in to do anything about it. -Tim ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 19:49:15 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Help...what are the main issues facing beekeepers today! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rick wrote: I have been invited to talk on a major radio program about beekeeping. What do you believe are the major issues facing beekeepers today? I have done many beekeeping radio programs myself. Most on KCXL Liberty, Mo. Excellent way to reach the masses. As the number of U.S. bee keepers continues to decline our clout with those in control declines. We always hear of huge efforts to save a little known species of bird in danger no matter the costs to the human population (land, jobs etc.). Why not the same concern for the honeybee? The honey bee is far more important to us through pollination than birds. Saving species of birds is important but saving the honeybee is critical to our food production. We need to make the general public aware of the current plight of the honeybee. We need to make the general pubic aware of the importance to agriculture of the honey bee through pollination. The honeybee is still in dire straits. The feral population is not back yet. Yet our politicians would shut down the bee lab (Baton Rouge) which has been working for seven years to come up with a honey bee which can survive varroa and could be used to establish the feral colonies. Your talk need not be all *gloom and doom* Rick but be sure to cover the different types of mites and the small hive beetle. Point out half the commercial colonies died when the tracheal mite was first introduced. Then another 50 plus percent were lost when varroa was introduced. The USDA has said around 90 plus percent of feral colonies were lost between both mites and the feral colonies have not bounced back yet (nor are they going to until we get a bee which can tolerate varroa untreated for over two years). Two years seems to be the survival max for a untreated feral colony these days. Good luck with the talk! Hope my comments help! Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 21:28:34 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kathleen Darrell Subject: Re: one frame of comb honey In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v481) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aaron Morris wrote: > Impossible. The bees will ignore the comb honey frame and concentrate > on > the remaining frames. > Hi Aaron and all! I know that Aaron is talking about Ross rounds. I run 9 frames in my honey supers. I have a 4 frame extractor and found that 9 frames is a pain. Several years ago I started using a frame with cut comb foundation in the centre. I have modified the process over the years and now insert an empty frame(no foundation) in the centre of each honey super. This provides me with all the cut comb honey, with drone sized cells and no crunchy foundation, that I can sell. Bob Darrell Caledon Ontario Canada 44N80W ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 22:04:52 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: cave paintings Comments: cc: DeeALusby1@aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi all: Had this information forwarded to me from an old friend and figured I pass it on with a few comments. Even Huber's letters mentioned stingless and stinging bees both in Chile, Peru and Mexico in 1820. and Abby Clavigero mentioned bees just like back home in Europe in 1806 and the discourse by Belknap referenced preacher Purchas in 1657 writing memoirs by Samuel Bagster of stinging bees seen by Ferdinado de Soto in what is now the southern Gulf Port States of the USA. Sincerely, Dee A. Lusby (still believing in Native bees and still no DNA disproving for some reason.) > To: "Ed & Dee Lusby" > CC: > Subject: cave paintings > Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 15:41:34 -0800 > > On the Science channel on 11-17-02 there was a show about > northern Brazil and cave paintings from 50,000 years ago. > There was cave painting of bee skips and of honey being > harvested. I do not have any other information about > this but if you do please send it to me. So much for > history and Eva Crane. > Thanks > Dan Aten > __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site http://webhosting.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 12:33:20 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Kilty Subject: Re: Overwintering of Apistan Strips In-Reply-To: <001601c28df2$78d210b0$2ed3ad8e@HAL> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <001601c28df2$78d210b0$2ed3ad8e@HAL>, Donald Aitken writes >the recommended 42 day >application period. It would appear that it is more to ensure that two >rounds of brood are treated than to discourage resistance build up. Mites enter the cell in the day before capping, so mites spend 13 days in worker brood and 15 days or so in drone brood. Older mites enter a second or third cell to breed whilst new mites spend several days maturing before entering a cell for the first time. These phoretic mites have a longer period with the strips, the mature mites have a couple of shorter shots. -- James Kilty ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 09:11:13 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Rick Green Subject: Re: Help...what are the main issues facing beekeepers today! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit thanks, great facts to support a radio program with. Rick Green 8 Hickory Grove Lane Ballston Lake, NY 12019 (518) 384-2539 gothoney@aol.com honeyetc.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 18:48:29 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Help...what are the main issues facing beekeepers today! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rick, Bob Harrison did a nice job of information, but a few things should be EMPHASIZED. The GREAT MAJORITY of Americans just DON'T know that honey bees pollinate 35% of all human food; ALL fruits, onions, broccoli, squash, cucumbers, watermelons, pumpkins, cantaloupe, and even ICE CREAM and STEAK. Cattle must have HIGH protein Alfalfa hay to make good milk or good beef, and honey bees pollinate over 90% of alfalfa seed. Imagine breakfast without orange juice, a hamburger without onions, salad without cucumbers, Thanksgiving without cranberry sauce or pumpkin pie, and a birthday without ice cream! To the public, every flying insect is a "bee" and bees sting. They do not know that honey bees DIE when they sting, and hence are NOT aggressive, just defensive as you would be if someone tried to disturb your HOME. LEGISLATORS and even the PRESIDENT of the U.S. do NOT know what I just wrote and hence do NOT consider honey bees as important. Honey bees need a lot of PUBLIC RELATIONS spread about them. George Imirie. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 08:23:36 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry J Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Help...what are the main issues facing beekeepers today! In-Reply-To: <126.1ad84bd2.2b0c27cd@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" George makes the case that the general public, legislators, and even the President do not consider bees to be important. Unfortunately, many professional people, who should know better, don't. In George's part of the world, about two years ago, I had a meeting with a group of ecologists and wildlife biologists who serve as an advisory board to EPA. I anticipated that I'd have a hard time providing good quantitative information about the value of bees (all species of bees) to natural habitats. Qualitatively, its easy -- bees maintain species diversity, increase yield and quality of seeds, nuts; help sustain plants that are being heavily foraged by deer, etc. What I did not expect was that the "experts" didn't have a clue about the role that bees play as pollinators. They recognized the value of bees as pollinators of crops (but thought that was a special case). Their exact words were: "I guess they keep a few weeds around!" That meeting caused us to spend two month digging out literature about the value of insects and bees, in particular, as pollinators of natural systems. Cheers ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 12:23:57 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Yoon Sik Kim, Ph.D." Subject: Re: cave paintings MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Madam, With due respect, allow me to voice my fallacious thoughts in response since “analogy” in the Greek original means “against the logic.” Horses [ancestors of *equus*], according to abundant fossil records, ran amuck for millions of years in North America—-only to be wiped out by climate change and hunting around BC 8,000 (http://www.pbs.org/wildhorses/wh_origin/wh_origin.html). Hence, eliminating the cumbersome need to find any graffiti in a prehistoric cave. Now that we see growing feral population of horses in wild, can you argue that these are the *native* horses, having nothing to do with the conquistadores? My tax money, IMHO, should not pay for the DNA analysis of the so- called “Native Bees,” for the buggers seem to favor living in only one particular state of the union. (If indeed there had been native bees, why are they only in your state? Oklahoma should have a few because we are the buckle of the Bible Belt!) (My bees are wolfing down a gallon a week lately.) Humdinger, ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 20:21:01 +0000 Reply-To: pdillon@club-internet.fr Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Organization: Home Subject: Re: Help...what are the main issues facing beekeeperstoday! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Been meaning to reply to this thread, and Jerry's mail pushed me to do so! Honey bees, are as most concerned individuals realise under many pressures. Often the contribution made by these insects via. their pollination activities is quoted. Usually in recognition of their value in direct pollination of crops consumed by man or domesticated stock. George Imirie touched on this area. But also, bees are essential for the maintenance of soil fertility. Soils need leguminous plants to fix atmospheric nitrogen into the soil. The seed required to grow these plants is ensured by - honey bee pollination. Without our bees, there would be a massive lack in quantities required. Hence, bees are a key link in the production cycle of crops that do not require the presence of primary pollinators; such as cereals. Without the bees providing the critical link in seed production for such plants as alfalfa, clover, trefoils etc. the soil fertility required in maize, wheat, barley, potatoes etc., etc. would rapidly reduce to a level of exhaustion. Bees also have to be protected against the potential of sub lethal intoxication from insecticides - a little understood area of study at the present. Our problem as ever - is that apiculture is a minority activity, little understood by the general population. One that is difficult to approach as a curious bystander. Mr. and Mrs. Public et al. know little, hear little and show little enthusiasm - whereas in reality, our apicultural activities are of strategical importance, how ever one approaches modern agriculture. Let our industry wither away to the peril of the general public! Peter ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 17:52:37 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Cave Paintings MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi all Just had to add this remark to what I posted previously. It is from email reply from my friend ERik Osterlund when I sent the information to him about the cave paintings. Erik wrote: Looked in a big book by Crane yesterday and saw a note about a person in the 16th century having observed bees in Peru building combs in holes in trees the same way as bees in Europe. Sincerely, Dee A. Lusby (This makes me feel better about Eva Crane for documentation is scattered and few, but glad the above is in a book she did and now I'd certainly like to know who was observing the european like comb by bees in Peru back then) __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site http://webhosting.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 18:15:25 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Subject: equipment My father was a bee keeper in southern California for many years. His strain of bee was of the silver caucasian variety. We harvested from 400 to 600 gallons of hone per year in two harvests. The first was of sage blossom and the second from buck wheat blossom. I lost dad in December 1999 and I am now storing his equipment in my home in northwest Arkansas. I would like to know if there is a discussion forum on the web where I could make some keeper a good deal on his equipment. Thank you in advance Dick Roundy ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 21:09:37 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: equipment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Dick, > I would like to know if there is a discussion forum on the web where I > could make some keeper a good deal on his equipment. I would place an add in the American Bee Journal. 1-888-922-1293. If you do use the ABJ decide before hand if you want to split up the equipment and if you are willing to crate and ship things. Those are the first questions you will be asked. Email a list of equipment to me directly and I will pass on the information to our membership at the December meeting of the Midwestern Beekeepers assn. . You are a short drive from our membership. I will try and get the information run in our newsletter. We mailed out over 250 newsletters last month. Allen Dick used to do a *bee equipment for sale* at his website. Ebay will sell bee equipment but the way to move bee equipment fast would be through an add with an local bee club (within driving distance)or the ABJ in my opinion. Bee Culture ( 800-289- 7668) also runs adds as does the "Speedy Bee" ( 912-427-4018). I can provide contact people for all the bee clubs in south Missouri. Email me direct if you want those names. Bob Harrison Current Vice President Midwestern Beekeepers assn. (2 ND. term) Past President (3 terms)