From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 08:24:52 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-89.7 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,AWL, SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10F6C4904A for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SDAZe6011456 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:24 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:18 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0305E" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 73962 Lines: 1706 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 22:39:44 +0300 Reply-To: superbee Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: superbee Subject: Commercial queens and Coumaphos MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Bob, Yes Indeed, Coumaphos is responsible for many problems in queens. This = was first described and named by me as Intermediate Caste Syndrome and = these findings were later confirmed by other workers in the USA. Best regards Roger White Superbee Cyprus :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 03:57:57 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Commercial queens and Coumaphos Comments: To: superbee MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Roger said: Yes Indeed, Coumaphos is responsible for many problems in queens. If the problem continues to grow with commercial beekeepers I suspect commercial beekeeper numbers will drop again. I have wrote about the solution in posts back when coumaphos use was started ( 98-99) if the above happened. Roger said: This was first described and named by me as Intermediate Caste Syndrome and these findings were later confirmed by other workers in the USA Interesting name for a queen pesticide poisoning. What are the signs of *Intermediate caste syndrome* and I must say I have never heard the name used before now. I have read again Mehat's ABJ article and will comment later in the discussion. Going to move bees now ( four thirty am.). Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 07:35:51 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Rick Drutchas Subject: queen cages MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Just received a shipment of queens from California. Im glad to see a new = cage, at least new to me, is on the market. This cage is wood with a = deeper cavity and has a plastic pipe filled with candy that you attach = at the cork hole for longer release time. I am told that the plastic = cage doesn't allow a space for the queen to hide from unexcepting bees. = Seems that her feet can be chewed on in the plastic cage where in this = wood cage they cant. New and improved, somebody is thinkin. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 16:16:51 +0300 Reply-To: superbee Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: superbee Subject: Commercial queens and Coumaphos MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Bob, I didn't say that it was pesticide poisoning! It affects the developing = queens and causes ICS. The queens are part worker, part queen. The = amount of each caste is very variable and the number of queen/batch also = varies. But, a queen that has 5, 10 or 15% part worker characteristics = is of course liable to be superseded much quicker than a queen that is = fully developed. These ICS queens (virgins) can cause real havoc in a = breeding apiary by going around entering colonies that are rearing = cells, producing small amounts of queen pheromone and affecting further = the development of the cells being reared. A lot of cells are also = destroyed by the rearing colonies as the cells get close to emergence. = Apparently, the bees realize that that the sealed cells contain = intercastes and destroy them. Best regards Roger White Superbee Cyprus. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 08:44:02 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Commercial queens and Coumaphos Comments: To: superbee MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Roger said: I didn't say that it was pesticide poisoning! It affects the developing queens and causes ICS. Call it what you want but we are talking about a slight poisoning by coumaphos of the queen. Fluvalinate has been linked to drone sterilization. We were told about the problem you describe (ICS) by the California queen breeders in talks a couple years ago. The problem was solved when coumaphos strips were not placed in hives while queens were being raised. The problem was coming from the strips and NOT a high level of coumaphos in the nest comb as the comb was tested we were told then. . After reading again "Miticides residues in Honey and wax in North America" (Pg.322 April 2003 ABJ) by M.E.Nasr. their findings go along with what our USDA people have told us except the high coumaphos levels have ONLY been found in hives which have used the illegal dip coumaphos. 38ppm. in brood comb wax coming from those hives we were told in Savannah (2002). The article does not make clear if they were testing those New Jersey hives which had coumaphos resistant varroa and had been treated illegally (miticide dip) or random testing of hives which had been treated with checkmite strips as per label. Jeff P. (Savannah 2002 & K.C.2003)told us the contamination level in hives which were correctly treated (checkmite strips) was higher than expected but still within the range the USDA had expected when Checkmite was registered. The problem with the huge amount of hives going queenless in commercial operations is in my opinion caused by long term *direct* contact with checkmite strips and bees with coumaphos by *queens*. In cases where the illegal dip as been used I suspect brood nest wax contamination is the problem as pointed out by Nasr and others. Jim makes some excellent points as what could happen to foundation wax and brood nests if the contamination continues. Nasr in the article gives the accumulated rate for fluvalinate as 0.5 PPM/year. I wonder if we have got a figure yet for the accumulated rate for coumaphos per year. Comments? Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 11:04:35 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Layne Westover Subject: Re: Commercial queens and Coumaphos Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Between Jim's and Bob's comments on the probability of coumaphos accumulation in wax used for foundation and the effects it will probably have, it makes top bar hive beekeeping (for hobbyists) look better and better all the time. Either that or making your own foundation from your own wax so you know what is or isn't in it. You wouldn't want people getting sick from burning beeswax candles either. On the other hand, maybe there's not enough pesticide in it to make people sick. Or maybe the pesticide is destroyed in the burning process, or maybe not? Someone else can do the testing. I'll do the speculating. Consumers make their decisions based on what they believe to be true. Ever heard of GM corn? Is it "dangerous"? But most people won't buy it or eat it. My wife worked in the kitchen of a Chinese restaurant for a while. Now she will not eat in a Chinese restaurant. What you don't know won't hurt you, or could it? Odds are it won't , but I like to reduce the odds to zero if I can. Therefore I'll accept environmental contamination that I can't control, but I will control the things I can control. Layne Westover :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 10:54:21 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Medhat Nasr, Ph. D." Subject: Re: Commercial queens and Coumaphos MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Bob said: The article does not make clear if they were testing those New Jersey hives which had coumaphos resistant varroa and had been treated illegally (miticide dip) or random testing of hives which had been treated with checkmite strips as per label. I was at Rutgers University. The beekeeper who reported queen failure problem, used checkmite strips for four years. He used the strips as instructed in the label. When I worked on his bees, I found the regular CheckMite strips, NOT the OTHER GENERIC Strips. By the way, after the four years of using CheckMite, Varroa mites in his operation developed resistance to Coumaphos. The efficacy of CheckMite was 19%. We tested Apistan in his operation, we got 75% Varroa kill. Therefore, he had to stop using the checkMite strips and started using Apistan in 2002. When he stopped using CheckMite, he did not report unusual queen failure as in previous years. Bob said, Jim makes some excellent points as what could happen to foundation wax and brood nests if the contamination continues. High levels of Coumaphos in the brood chamber have caused some visual change in bee behaviour towards the queen. More research needs to be done to look at cause and effect. I am not aware of any studies reported a figure for the accumulated rate for coumaphos per year. There is more to the story about Wax vs plastic foundations!!! Medhat Medhat Nasr, Ph. D. Provincial Apiculturist Pest Risk Management Unit Crop Diversification Centre North RR 6, 17507 Fort Road Edmonton, AB, Canada T5B 4K3 Tel: (780) 415-2314 Fax: (780) 422-6096 Mailto:medhat.nasr@gov.ab.ca Jim makes some excellent points as what could happen to foundation wax and brood nests if the contamination continues. Nasr in the article gives the accumulated rate for fluvalinate as 0.5 PPM/year. I wonder if we have got a figure yet for the accumulated rate for coumaphos per year. Comments? Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 13:48:41 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Simoneau_Andr=E9_=28DRMONTR=29_=28L=27Assomption=29?= Subject: Fungus vs Varroa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Has anyone on this instructive list ever heard of research or even trials on the efficiency of Acaromyces laviae against Varroa destructor. I heard it was used in Europe, in the 50's to fight effectively(?) tracheal mite. Thanks for your collaboration Docteur André Simoneau Médecin vétérinaire régional Montréal-Laval-Lanaudière MAPAQ-CQIASA Laboratoire de pathologie animale 867, boulevard L'Ange-Gardien L'Assomption, Québec Canada J5W 4M9 Téléphone: 450-589-5745 poste 275 Télécopie: 450-589-0648 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 13:56:55 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Craig(L.C.) Riches" Subject: adding brood/honey supers I have recently returned to beekeeping after a 25year absence. I guess I am an intermediate novice that is learning each day. I recently hived 5 swarms in single deep supers. 2 of these were given to me as already quite established. After waiting for them to settle in, I inspected all of them the other day and 2 of the deep supers were filled with healthy brood and honey to the outside-frame1&10. I added 1/2 honey supers to each as that was all I had ready. The others have smaller population and are still building out. QUESTION: Should I have placed another deep super above these with queen excluders? Will the bees fill the 1/2's with brood or with honey? Should I treat with apistan strips as all my boxes are used? :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 07:14:17 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: European Foul Brood I think it is because AFB forms very tough spores which are capable of surviving the acid fumes, EFB does not. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lionel Evans" To: Sent: 28 May 2003 14:12 Subject: Re: [BEE-L] European Foul Brood > If Acetic acid works on EFB, what keeps it from working on AFB? > > Lionel > > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 19:51:01 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Re BEE-L Varooa resistance to Apistan Allen said: > Count the mites you see and multiply by 100. > If the number is more than 1,000, then look for help. Post the details > of what you found (and where you live etc.) here for comment, if you > wish, or should I say, dare. Had a very thorough look a screen today that was last cleared 7 days ago. 1 live mite and one dead one. I also uncapped a considerable amount of drone brood - perhaps 500 - 600. No mites - but I brought them home and the robin currently sitting her second clutch of 5 eggs in the potting shed will have a feast! Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 12:46:05 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Commercial queens and Coumaphos MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Medhat said: I was at Rutgers University. The beekeeper who reported queen failure problem, used checkmite strips for four years. He used the strips as instructed in the label. The big problem the U.S.D.A. has had working through both the coumaphos & fluvalinate problem has been the use of illegal miticides. The problem was discussed in great detail at the Apiary inspectors of America meeting I attended in Savannah in 2002. The fine for use of correl miticide is $10,000 U.S. Proving illegal use is hard as strips are not involved usually. The USDA only sees the end result. Slip a Checkmite strip in and call the USDA and report a problem. ADMIT ILLEGAL USE AND YOU CAN EXPECT A 10,000 fine! Many beekeepers have confessed to other beekeepers (myself included) use of illegal miticides. Millions of brood frames have been changed over the last few years in commercial operations. Medhat said: When I worked on his bees, I found the regular CheckMite strips, NOT the OTHER GENERIC Strips. I don't know what generic strips you are talking about. please explain? Medhat said: By the way, after the four years of using CheckMite, Varroa mites in his operation developed resistance to Coumaphos. The efficacy of CheckMite was 19%. After four years of using coumaphos in the Midwest by most beekeepers we have yet to see resistance and checked ALL hives in many yards. Medhat said: We tested Apistan in his operation, we got 75% Varroa kill. Therefore, he had to stop using the checkMite strips and started using Apistan in 2002. U.S. bee inspectors tried Apistan on coumaphos resitant mites in Florida and did not get any control at all. We tried to rotate back to Apistan in experimental yards after three years in the midwest and got very little control . We got fluvalinate resistant varroa in 1998 in our area. I found my fluvalinate resitant mites though testing (as documented at the time ( spring 1998)in the BEE-L archives) while many other beekeepers in our area found thiers two years later (spring 2000) when 80-90% of the their hives died over the winter and the rest were too varroa infested to treat. Interesting the different behavior of varroa when resistance starts. I appreciate Medhat taking his time to explain his observations! I have been told by J.Pettis, L. Couts and D. Westervelt that resistant varroa created by the illegal use of corral are super mites and neither coumaphos, amatraz or fluvalinate will control those varroa. Medhat said: When he stopped using CheckMite, he did not report unusual queen failure as in previous years. Seems to me he would need to replace brood comb to solve the problem *if* he was the beekeeper with the high coumaphos contaminated brood comb. Medhat said: High levels of Coumaphos in the brood chamber have caused some visual change in bee behaviour towards the queen. More research needs to be done to look at cause and effect. Maybe the bees object to the white powder of coumaphos on her all the time! Kidding! Thanks again to Medhat for his post. I get many direct emails from high profile USDA people which all read BEE-L but do not post . Many pass on information to me because they know I will not tell the source of the information received. If you are one of those people please send me the latest info on the subject! Thanks in advance! Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 12:28:02 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Medhat Nasr, Ph. D." Subject: Re: COMMERCIAL QUEENS & COUMAPHOS MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ----- Forwarded by Medhat Nasr/AAFRD on 05/29/2003 12:24 PM ----- Medhat Nasr 05/29/2003 08:06 AM To: cc: Subject: Re: COMMERCIAL QUEENS & COUMAPHOS Jim asked few questions. Here are my answers: Q: Can you confirm that all the colonies from which the samples were taken were treated strictly per instructions? Answer I was at Rutgers University. A beekeeper reported queen failure problem. I started a project to find the causes of queen failure. He has used checkmite strips for four years. He used the strips as instructed in the label. When I worked on his bees, I found the regular CheckMite strips, NOT the OTHER GENERIC Strips. By the way, after the four years of using CheckMite, Varroa mites in his operation developed resistance to Coumaphos. The efficacy of CheckMite was 19%. We tested Apistan in his operation, we got 75% Varroa kill. Therefore, he had to stop using the checkMite strips and started using Apistan in 2002. Last year and this year, he did not report the unusual queen failure as in previous years. We also checked if queen quality could be the cause of failure. We did not find a significant problem with most of queens to cause early queen supersedure followed by failure. > Coumaphos was found in 83% of honey samples with a range >3-8 ppm. Q:When you say "honey samples", do you mean jars of final product, or specific samples of honey taken from brood comb areas? Answer: A: Yes, honey samples was from honey jars from the shelf to be used by consumers. (Honey+coumaphos would make any user feel excited and good, eh!) Q: If the "samples" were harvested honey, does this mean that over half of coumaphos users can expect to harvest honey that is from 30 to 80 times the US "legal limit"? (Say it ain't so, please!) Answer: I would say NO; Not to please Jim. It depends on the age of the combs in the brood chamber and honey supers. and how much Coumaphos has been accumulated in the wax. Honey samples collected from another source where there were low levels of coumaphos in the brood chamber combs, did not have coumaphos or had up o 25 ppb (research results were done after publishing my abstract). Q: The US EPA tolerance for coumaphos in wax is a whopping 100 ppm. (See the same link, above) a) If 45 ppm in wax is associated with queen failures b) and 23 ppm does not seem to have overt short-term effects One starts plotting curves in one's head of how long before foundation made from recycled wax becomes universally toxic to bees. Answer It is a good question. Research is going on to check effects of coumaphos on queen production. Sofar higher levels of coumaphos (100ppm) in the wax used for making queen cups had damaging effect on acceptance of queen cells. I am continuing some research here to answer the very same question. Medhat Medhat Nasr, Ph. D. Provincial Apiculturist Pest Risk Management Unit Crop Diversification Centre North RR 6, 17507 Fort Road Edmonton, AB, Canada T5B 4K3 Tel: (780) 415-2314 Fax: (780) 422-6096 Mailto:medhat.nasr@gov.ab.ca "James Fischer" 05/28/2003 04:30 PM Please respond to jfischer To: cc: Subject: Re: COMMERCIAL QUEENS & COUMAPHOS Medhat Nasr said: > High levels of coumaphos (Average= 45.53 ppm, n= 8) were found > in wax samples from colonies where failing queens were found > and subleathal toxicity to bees were observed. Wax samples (n=8) > collected from good active colonies had an average of 23.66 ppm > coumaphos. I saw your abstract, and had a few questions about it. Can you confirm that all the colonies from which the samples were taken were treated strictly per instructions? I ask because any talk of unusual levels of contamination are often met with the claim that such levels must have been the result of "misuse" or "unapproved formulations". (Great marketing strategy, eh? Blame your customers.) > Coumaphos was found in 83% of honey samples with a range >3-8 ppm. When you say "honey samples", do you mean jars of final product, or specific samples of honey taken from brood comb areas? In 2000, the US EPA set a tolerance for coumaphos in honey at 0.1 ppm (one tenth part per million, aka "100 parts per billion"). http://www.honey.com/pressrm/research/coumaphos.html If the "samples" were harvested honey, does this mean that over half of coumaphos users can expect to harvest honey that is from 30 to 80 times the US "legal limit"? (Say it ain't so, please!) Even if the "samples" were taken from the brood area, what are the odds that the same few drops of honey could be moved to the supers, harvested, and end up being "sampled" during a honey test? (OK, it is a bit of a long shot, but who wants to bet their entire crop on it?) The US EPA tolerance for coumaphos in wax is a whopping 100 ppm. (See the same link, above) a) If 45 ppm in wax is associated with queen failures b) and 23 ppm does not seem to have overt short-term effects One starts plotting curves in one's head of how long before foundation made from recycled wax becomes universally toxic to bees. I don't use coumaphos, but from your numbers, I must conclude that I may soon be unknowingly exposing my bees to coumaphos simply by buying foundation. One hopes that the makers of foundation will "wake up" to this problem, and start testing wax before they use it to make foundation, but this will eliminate the "trade your wax for foundation" game, as smaller lots of wax are not "worth" the expense of such testing. jim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 15:55:20 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: COMMERCIAL QUEENS & COUMAPHOS In-Reply-To: I asked, about Medhat Nasr's recent sampling work: >> When you say "honey samples", do you mean jars of final product, or >> specific samples of honey taken from brood comb areas? Medhat Nasr answered: > Yes, honey samples was from honey jars from the shelf to be used by > consumers. > (Honey + coumaphos would make any user feel excited and good, eh!) So, it appears that one can conclude from your findings that the beekeeper did not appear to be doing any of the things that have been trotted out as explainations for prior discoveries of high coumaphos levels. (The "blame the beekeeper" approach) > By the way, after the four years of using CheckMite, Varroa mites in > his > operation developed resistance to Coumaphos. The efficacy of CheckMite > was 19%. We tested Apistan in his operation, we got 75% Varroa kill. Therefore, > he had to stop using the CheckMite strips and started using Apistan in 2002. When one gets only a 75% kill, is it reasonable to call this yet more proof that use of Check-Mite results in mites that are somehow BOTH Check-Mite (coumaphos) AND Apistan (fluvalinate) resistant? I dunno about anyone else, but if I treated a hive, and only got a 75% varroa kill, I would describe the colony as "doomed". > Last year and this year, he did not report unusual queen failure as in > previous years. We also checked if queen quality could be the cause of > failure. We did not a significant problem to cause early queen supersedure > followed by failure. OK, then: In light of the EPA coumaphos tolerance limits, which are 100 ppb (0.1 ppm) for honey and 100 ppm for wax, and your statements above, do we have enough data to interpolate some numbers, and draw a rough graph of the range of coumaphos levels one can expect "per year of coumaphos use" in: Brood comb wax? Super comb wax? Harvested honey? When I see a maximum "ready for market" honey contamination ranging from 0.025 ppm to 8 ppm, what I see is a signficant risk that one's honey is NOT "ready for market" at all. Anything over 0.1 ppm would need to be destroyed. When one realizes that these results came from "per-label" use of a pesticide that has not been available very long, by beekeepers who can be assumed to be making a good-faith effort to take the usual and prudent precautions, I notice that the highest reading is 320 times the lowest, even though: a) the honey supers and combs b) the honey are never directly exposed to the contaminant. Am I the only one who thinks that these numbers are much too important to "announce" to beekeepers in tiny type of the back pages of a magazine when most readers will instead turn to the articles with color photos? Given that these levels were residues found in the harvested crop, doesn't "queen failure" pale in comparison to the larger issue of a crop of honey that cannot be sold as "food" due to EPA regulations after only 4 years of coumaphos use? jim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 15:17:21 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Medhat Nasr, Ph. D." Subject: Re: Commercial queens and Coumaphos MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Bob: No Comments on what you said about misuse of chemicals. Where I did my work, The beekeeper was open and honest with me. We tried to get to the bottom of this queen failure. Our thoughts were going on the direction of queen quality causing the problem, but research proved that we were wrong. I don't know what generic strips you are talking about. please explain? Answer: It is a nice way to put the stuff that you mentioned in the top part of your e-mail. Bob: After four years of using coumaphos in the Midwest by most beekeepers we have yet to see resistance and checked ALL hives in many yards. Answer: As you are aware that Coumaphos resistance was reported in three states Maine, Florida and New Jersey. If beekeepers are able to continue using effectively Coumaphos it should be good news to everyone. Bob, U.S. bee inspectors tried Apistan on coumaphos resistant mites in Florida and did not get any control at all. Answer: where we did the test, I applied the strips for three weeks and we got good results. Remember, the USA is a big country, we can't make general statement that apply to everybody. Bob: your statement"to solve the problem, replace combs in the brood chamber" is true. This beekeeper used to replace combs in brood chamber, but he got tired of keep replacing queens in hives that suffer from queen failure. It becomes expensive. Thanks again to Medhat for his post. I get many direct emails from high profile USDA people which all read BEE-L but do not post . Many pass on information to me because they know I will not tell the source of the information received. Medhat: Some of us are lucky and connected, eh! Medhat Nasr, Ph. D. Provincial Apiculturist Pest Risk Management Unit Crop Diversification Centre North RR 6, 17507 Fort Road Edmonton, AB, Canada T5B 4K3 Tel: (780) 415-2314 Fax: (780) 422-6096 Mailto:medhat.nasr@gov.ab.ca :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 17:11:42 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bee1Bob1@AOL.COM Subject: Re: European Foul Brood MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit AFB is a spore forming bacteria unlike EFB. A spore is a survival capsule with a thick and tough outer wall. It has been shown that this wall will enable the AFB spore to survive for tens of years and withstand: Desiccation. Chemical agents like acetic acid. Quite high temperatures e.g. boiling water - only flaming the hive parts to a coffee colour will destroy them. As far as I know only gamma radiation will sterilise combs so that they can be safely used - not something a normal beekeeper can do. Hope that helps Bob Gilbert Tamworth Staffordshire England :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 23:35:57 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Fungus vs Varroa Simoneau André asked: Has anyone on this instructive list ever heard of research or even trials on the efficiency of Acaromyces laviae against Varroa destructor. I heard it was used in Europe, in the 50's to fight effectively(?) tracheal mite. I know that some very promising research has been carried out on the use of fungi to control varroa at Horticultural Research International (HRI) - not sure about Acaromyces laviae, but you may be able to get an update. The website is: http://www2.hri.ac.uk/view_headlines.php?cat=rast&subcat=&page=10283&showoth ers=go&page2= Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 23:25:17 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: European Foul Brood Bob Gilbert said: > As far as I know only gamma radiation will sterilise combs so that they can > be safely used - not something a normal beekeeper can do. Yes they can - and it is not difficult. Some years ago I had AFB and could not be sure which supers might have come into contact. I took all the combs to a plant in Swindon where they were irradiated at quite a resonable cost. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 22:45:11 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Kilty Subject: Varroa resistance to Apistan In-Reply-To: <001f01c324c6$42708220$21ac58d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <001f01c324c6$42708220$21ac58d8@BusyBeeAcres>, Bob Harrison writes >I predict when resistance to Apistan happens you will soon find fault with >thymol. The still effective Apistan treatment (U.K.) is making the thymol >treatment seem more effective in my opinion. I am in the area of the UK where mites are resistant to Apistan. A neighbour reported 4% efficiency tested by a Bee Inspector! I have been using Apiguard since autumn 2002. I treated the colonies with the most obviously high mite count and left the others. 7 had low counts and some had huge counts. I treated all but one colony, mostly 3 or 4 times. Mite falls have settled down now and all colonies have recovered or are recovering. In 3 cases, mite counts were "huge" (estimated at over 1000) after the 3rd treatment and not all dead brood had been removed, there were still bees with deformed wings and in one case shiny bodies (though not paralysed). It will be interesting to see the natural count once the treatment is over. I am hopeful! For what it is worth, I place my card with the paste on top, away from the brood nest. Last year, I found colonies hung out of the entrance to a degree and in one case (in a small box) chewed out all the brood and clustered outside like a swarm. On being given a larger box, they returned to normal. So I am adjusting the amount I give to the colony size as well. They do seem mostly to remove it within a week and in the majority of cases destroy and remove the card (let it drop through the mesh!). The purpose of the exercise was to discover those colonies that managed varroa best of all and breed from them. This is ongoing. -- James Kilty :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 22:26:06 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Kilty Subject: Re: Varroa Resistance to Apistan In-Reply-To: <200305280040.h4S0egaV014470@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <200305280040.h4S0egaV014470@listserv.albany.edu>, Tim Vaughan writes >It will be nice >if you can breed a strain of bees that are productive, disease resistant, >mite resistent and gentle. I don't have the resources or knowledge though. My point with a clumsy post was that if you are already breeding for gentleness, you could select further by breeding from colonies that have gentleness and the lowest mite count. There would be no extra work. Ther would be extra work if you wanted to speed up the process, and involve as much isolation as you could get and selecting and moving the drone colonies to the vicinity of the mating apiary and removing all others. -- James Kilty :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 21:31:43 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Griggs Subject: Digitization of EF Phillips Rare Beekeeping Book Collection Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v552) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello all, I know I keep popping in with this subject out of the blue, but wanted to let the you know where the project stands. We are about to start and are just shy of the amount required for full EAS matching funds. We are going to hire a student to begin scanning volumes to mount on the WWW. More information on the scope & intent of this project can be found at http://www.easternapiculture.org/programs/ Here is our starting list of volumes which we hope to have mounted ASAP. If you have access from home you will be able to start reading these titles on your computer perhaps by late summer, certainly by Thanxgiving! As always I or the library can answer any questions you might have.-----Mike Griggs--President Finger Lakes Beekeepers Langstroth, L.L. (Lorenzo Lorraine), 1810-1895. Langstroth on the hive and the honey-bee; a bee keeper's manual. Northampton, Hopkins, Bridgman, 1853. Doolittle, Gilbert M., 1846- Scientific queen-rearing as practically applied; being a method by which the best of queen-bees are reared in perfect accord with nature's ways. For the amateur and veteran in bee-keeping. Chicago, T. G. Newman, 1889. Dzierzon, Jan, 1811-1906. Dzierzon's rational bee-keeping; or, The theory and practice of Dr. Dzierzon ... Tr. from the latest German ed. by H. Dieck and S. Stutterd. Ed. and rev. by Charles Nash Abbott London, Houlston & sons; [etc., etc.] 1882. Miller, C. C. (Charles C.), 1831-1920. Fifty years among the bees. Medina, Ohio, A. I. Root Co., 1911. Quinby, M. (Moses), 1810-1875. Mysteries of bee-keeping explained: being a complete analysis of the whole subject; consisting of the natural history of bees, directions for obtaining the greatest amount of pure surplus honey with the least possible expense, remedies for losses given, and the science of "luck" fully illustrated--the result of more than twenty years' experience in extensive apiaries. New York, C. M. Saxton & company, 1853. Alley, Henry. The beekeeper's handy book ; or, Twenty-two years' experience in queen-rearing, containing the only scientific and practical method of rearing queen bees, and the latest and best methods for the general management of the apiary. Wenham, Mass., The author, 1883. Phillips, Everett Franklin, 1878-1951. Beekeeping; a discussion of the life of the honeybee and of the production of honey. New York, The Macmillan company; London, Macmillan & co., ltd., 1915. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 07:34:39 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: European Foul Brood Chris said: > Thanks for that Robin. It answers a question I posed some time ago as to > whether Acetic acid fumes killed EFB as well as Nosema. I think that it is dangerous to rely on acetic acid completely. Yes, it does kill EFB - but if there is dried infective material in the bottom of the cell then the fumes may not penetrate effectively. Does anyone know of any definitive research on this? Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 07:25:53 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Varroa Resistance to Apistan Robin said: > I realise that some beekeepers cannot envisage that the conventional tiered > hive [National or Langstoth] can possibly be improved on - they should read > no further. I did read further and, having seen this hive at Stoneleigh, can see that it might appeal to some amateurs with a couple of hives at the bottom of the garden. However, I cannot imagine that many commercial beekeepers are using it. How many are in use? Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 07:30:41 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: European Foul Brood Robin said: > The symptoms of EFB disappear > naturally when the brood peak is passed Not always. I have picked up EFB on a final inspection before feeding for winter (the colony had been inspected regularly throughout the season). This is the problem with EFB - although it normally makes an appearance when the flow starts this is by no means certain and it may or may not subsequently disappear. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 07:20:35 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Re BEE-L Varooa resistance to Apistan Robin said: > If there is too much rubbish to see even that, wipe clean and check again after > only a week. Involves a return visit to the apiary > I use yellow plastic tea trays [costing 85p - say $1.20] 120 hives at 85p = £102 > Wipe the trays with petroleum jelly so the rubbish comes away easily. More cost and labour - as Allen said : "trying to find more things to do with one's bees..." > If moth larvae are there, wipe them away - and be glad they were there and not right in the hive - the > trays act as a moth trap. Disagree. I think that the trap acts as an ideal breeding ground. The notion that all these moths would otherwise be in the hive is flawed. Most hives would not tolerate them. > UK trays have handles at the ends - cut these off to reduce the total length More labour! > Most other diseases affect only a few colonies and are > not so deadly. Chalk brood affects more than a few colonies and leads to considerable loss of brood just when it is needed most - when the colony is trying to build up. > Varooa is only controlled so effectively because of Apistan Apistan is the easy option for most beekeepers, but varroa is being controlled very successfully by many beekeepers using other methods. > - scientists have not had as much success with thymol as Peter or we > would all know of it. You would if you read the right papers. My thymol treatment is based on research by Mariano Higes and Jesús Llorente of the Regional Apiculture Centre, Agrarian Investigation Service Joint Communities of Castilla - La Mancha, which was reported in Bee Biz, July 1997. Effectiveness is quoted at 97.6% for powdered thymol crystals placed in a petri dish directly above the brood nest. The effectiveness was greatly reduced when the thymol was enclosed (eg the 'tea bag' method). Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 07:31:39 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Medhat Nasr, Ph. D." Subject: Re: Commercial queens and Coumaphos MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Bob Said: Interesting the different behavior of varroa when resistance starts. I appreciate Medhat taking his time to explain his observations! Observations: 1. Colony population is getting small and in stress conditions 2. colony sounds like queenless, but the sound is not as loud as in normal case of queen less. 3. colony cluster is disrupted and becomes fragile, bees are walking all over the place as if they are walking on fire wiggling their body. 4. if you examine the brood nest closely, you will find no emergency queen cells and eggs. You may find the queen on one of the combs by herself. In most cases, you do not find the queen.. 5. When we provided the queenless colony with frame of eggs and young larvae to encourage them to raise emergency queen cells, the colony failed to produce queen cells. 6. When we removed 4-5 frames from the brood chamber and replace them with 4-5 frames of brood with a queen from a good colony. The colony accepted the new comers. Then, the removed combs from this hive were taken out for melting. The donor colony of brood, bees, and queen was fixed by adding new foundation or combs and introducing a new queen. In fact when I observed these symptoms, I asked my student Geoff Wilson who was visiting me from Ontario to examine some of these colonies. He was surprised to see what we called at that time sub-lethal toxicity of bees. Medhat Medhat Nasr, Ph. D. Provincial Apiculturist Pest Risk Management Unit Crop Diversification Centre North RR 6, 17507 Fort Road Edmonton, AB, Canada T5B 4K3 Tel: (780) 415-2314 Fax: (780) 422-6096 Mailto:medhat.nasr@gov.ab.ca :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 19:20:52 +0300 Reply-To: superbee Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: superbee Subject: Commercial queens and Coumaphos MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Bob, The ICS problem is caused by the chemical coumaphos, wether this gets = into the colony via Checkmite (we used this in our colonies)/Perizin or = by any other application is a moot point. The result is the same: ICS. = Even colonies that have never been in direct contact with the chemical, = but have brood combs added from colonies that have, develop the problem. = In my opinion it shouldn't be individual beekeepers that should be = fined, but the USDA and Bayer for allowing the product to be on the = market without full testing and warnings about possible side-effects. = Bayer should be sued for damages caused to queen rearing operations = because it failed to warn the end-users. The USDA and Bayer have known = about the problem for a long time, but less time than I have know about = it. When I was investigating the problem I had USDA officers attempting = to get information from me about it. They even used anonymous = identities, but as they didn't know how to hide their identity on the = internet, I was able to determine their true status. Roger White Superbee Cyprus :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 14:34:29 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Commercial queens and Coumaphos MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit superbee wrote: > In my opinion it shouldn't > be individual beekeepers that should be fined, but the USDA and Bayer > for allowing the product to be on the market without full testing and > warnings about possible side-effects. Bayer should be sued for > damages caused to queen rearing operations because it failed to warn > the end-users. Here in Maine, and I would guess in many States, Cumophose was authorized by an emergency request by the State because of the failure of Apistan. So the EPA was asked to relax their standards so the bee population could be protected. So if there is anyone to be sued, it is those who wanted it without adequate testing, which is the Beekeepers. Interesting court case. I think I recall that there was a lot of politicking to get it even though it is supposed to be phased out by the US. Sort of like the Pogo (dates me) comment that we have met the enemy and it is us. It was used because there were no true alternatives. I, and many others, would never use it, since I do not like organophosphates and other hormone type pesticides. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 19:01:57 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: beekeeper Organization: none Subject: Re: Fungus vs Varroa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I heard about some research being done on this but do not remember the particulars. I believe there was some information in ABJ last year. Coleene :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 12:33:47 +0300 Reply-To: superbee Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: superbee Subject: Commercial queens and Coumaphos MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Bill, If there was such a need to use Checkmite, you have by your own = admission never used it, then how come you still have bees?=20 It is the responsibilty of the USDA and the chemical companies to make = sure that products on the market conform to certain standards and that = they are not harmful to consumers, users and that the effects on = animals/plants being treated are not detrimental. It is also their = responsibilty to make sure that the users understands the risks (if any) = and side effects to himself and his animals/plants. As they have known = about the problem for years and have neglected to inform users about = possible side-effects, surely they are at fault. Do Checkmite packs now = carry a warning? I haven't seen one for a while, if they don't, then = don't you think that they should, so that potential users can assess the = risk and use alternative methods at least for the colonies that will be = used in queen rearing operations? For my own operation I can say that = it cost me A LOT in cash by lost production of queens and a lot of time = and extra work to finally determine where the problem came from. = Believe me that there is nothing quite as bad as having whole batches = of queen cells go wrong and the knock effect of not being able to fill = orders, bad feeling with customers etc. etc.=20 Let's take the story back some years to 1983 when Greek and Cypriot = beekeepers became the first beekeepers in the world to start using = Asundol (a.i. coumaphos) to control Varroa. Bayer go to know about this = and immediately withdrew all Asundol in Greece from the market (it has = since been quietly taken off the market in many other European = countries) only to re-issue it again under the name of Perizin at a = price that was 20 times higher than Asundol. The reason we are told was = the research and development cost involved, well I suppose if you = believe that, then you'll believe anything, I prefer to use the word = "greed". The USDA and Bayer knew that Varroa would become resistant to = Apistan and should have commenced testing Checkmite properly before it = became necessary to get a Section 18 issued. Why is Checkmite so = expensive? Because of R&D? If so, then it hasn't been carried out = properly and someone is at fault. Best regards Roger White Superbee Cyprus. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 07:26:40 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Commercial queens and Coumaphos Comments: To: superbee MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit superbee wrote: > Hi Bill, If there was such a need to use Checkmite, you have by your > own admission never used it, then how come you still have bees? My mites were not yet Apistan resistant. Had they been so, I would have probably lost my bees and gone fishing. I shifted to Oxalic Acid last year, but that was not an alternative when cumophose came on the scene. Plus, in using oxalic acid, I am slightly illegal (but not immoral and working on the fattening). >It is > the responsibility of the USDA and the chemical companies to make sure > that products on the market conform to certain standards and that > they are not harmful to consumers, users and that the effects on > animals/plants being treated are not detrimental. snip >The reason we are told was the research and development > cost involved, well I suppose if you believe that, then you'll > believe anything, I prefer to use the word "greed". The USDA and > Bayer knew that Varroa would become resistant to Apistan and should > have commenced testing Checkmite properly before it became necessary > to get a Section 18 issued. Why is Checkmite so expensive? Because > of R&D? If so, then it hasn't been carried out properly and someone > is at fault. For the market- beekeepers- it is expensive since it is such a small market you cannot amortize your costs over a large base. So stuff costs more especially when the US government is involved. There is an apparent conflict in arguing for more tests and decrying increased costs. I forget the manufacturer, but some time back a group of beekeepers effectively drove a tracheal mite control off the market because they sued the manufacturer for over wintering kills to their colonies. The whole thing was a bit suspect on both sides, but it convinced the manufacturer to get out of the bee business. I was told it would have made a good varroa control, so we would have had two controls on the market instead of just Apistan. Bayer certainly does not need our market. I am amazed that any large pesticide company puts money and resources into such a niche market, especially when you look at all the drawbacks and cost compared to the larger markets. Another thing that I do not understand and welcome enlightenment is why, since cumophose was in use in Europe long before it was approved in the US, were the problems with queens not high in visibility? If only in the US, then what are the differences between the US formulation and that in Europe? Bill Truesdell (who intends to sue the weatherman unless the weather gets better in NE) Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 08:07:56 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Greg Hershner Subject: Illegal Miticides MIME-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Good morning. I have been reading the list daily for a few months now = and appreciate the educational advice all are so willing to share. I am = a sideliner for the past 4 years and had 66% winter losses in spite of = treating by the package instructions to the letter! Reading this thread = on miticides has raised a question for me. I am a family physician, = and based on my training and frightened of the organophosphates and even = after receiving certification to use coumaphos I've decided not to use = it. I am 10 months into a treatment program using fogged food grade mineral = oil as described by Dr. Pedro Rodriguez, but am not seeing great = results. I have gone into this program after discussing to option with = several nationally prominent academic entomologists (Deleplane/Tew among = others) and my NC state apiculturist and state/regional inspectors. This spring I bought 10 nucs from a local producer. I was impressed by = his thriving bees. Regarding these supercharged Nucs....this unnamed = producer was willing to reveal his secret for healthy bees. It was = recommended to him by his local inspector who also uses it for his bees. = The product is a miticide called Taktic-- generically Amitraz. Questions: 1. Have I just violated list decorum by writing these words? If so = please accept my apologies and I'll keep quiet! If not..... 2. Does anyone have non-personal, anecdotal stories from others who = have experience with this miticide? 3. Is this miticide used for an "off label" indication illegal? I = use off-label treatments daily in my work as a physician. This is how = treatments for other disease indications are discovered and subsequently = keep medications under patent protection and earning billions of dollars = per year for the shareholders! 4. Who levies and enforces $10,000 fines? Is this per hive, per = apiary, or per bee farming operation? If it is the later, there might = be an "economic threshold" for treatment as proposed by the academics. = Increased output multiplied by the probability of detection and = sanctions. =20 5. Should I really believe that there may be state/federal inspectors = that use this product and yet are legally bound to bring sanctions = against others who follow their lead? Thanks, Greg Hershner North Carolina :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 11:42:15 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Illegal Miticides MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greg Hershner wrote: > This spring I bought 10 nucs from a local producer. I was impressed > by his thriving bees. Regarding these supercharged Nucs....this > unnamed producer was willing to reveal his secret for healthy bees. > It was recommended to him by his local inspector who also uses it for > his bees. The product is a miticide called Taktic-- generically > Amitraz. > > Questions: > > 1. Have I just violated list decorum by writing these words? If > so please accept my apologies and I'll keep quiet! If not..... No, but you reminded me what the miticide was that I referred to in my post. It was Amitraz (Miticure, I think it was called). It is good for both Tracheal and Varroa and was registered in the US but since no one makes it it is not available. I do not know how long a registration lasts, so it may have lapsed. Did a search of the archives and found the following, which is illuminating in view of the comments about cumophose. This was back in 1990 and is from the April issue of APIS. http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind9004&L=bee-l&P=R460 Not much changes. Quote It is becoming increasingly more costly and difficult to get a pesticide registered. This is certainly true for Nor-Am Chemical Company's product, Miticure (R), which contains the active ingredient amitraz. Originally, the product was scheduled to undergo the review process by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) last February. Now, however, the Agency indicates this will not occur until June. Unfortunately, this means that the product may not be available in the fall, when it will be most needed to reduce tracheal and Varroa populations in beehives. Nor-Am has recently written a letter to beekeeping industry leaders about the situation. The company urges that political action be taken to speed up the process. It suggests that beekeeping associations and individuals contact EPA regarding the situation and request the Agency to expedite registration of this material. The need is certainly there. An alternative chemical to fluvalinate will reduce the possibility of Varroa mites becoming resistant to the only currently registered material, Apistan (R). In addition, Miticure (R) is expected to provide protection against tracheal mites as well. Unquote It did work great then and I see no reason why it still should work. There is a lot of info in the archives about how to use it illegally. Bill Truesdell (Archives are the criminal's friend.) Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 12:44:43 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Zachary Huang Subject: Re: A Chance to Promote Your Site on BEE-L Please check my newest project: http://photo.bees.net/gallery/ which features a collection of honey bee photographs, that is organized into various albums and is seacheable (try search for dorsata, florea, or varroa). Best, Zachary Huang Michigan State University http://bees.msu.edu http://cyberbee.msu.edu :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 23:26:53 +0100 Reply-To: pdillon@club-internet.fr Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Organization: Home Subject: Re: Illegal Miticides MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Continuing on from Bill Truesdell's mail relating to Amitraz containing applications as having miticide properties. Persons able to understand the French language might find a visit to: http://www.apiservices.com/sante-de-labeille/articles/varroase.htm useful. There is a description on several miticides, including Amitraz containing preparations (Taktic, Maitac). This is not an article condoning illegal use and preparations - in fact it highlights dangers that will or may occur if such activities are undertaken. I recall having listen to several presentations given by Dr. J.P. Faucon here in France on the use of home made treatments based on miticides originating from preparations not having the authorised "label". - user beware! In fact, Amitraz lost its ability to deal with V.d. shortly after the appearance of fluvalinate resistance. Over several years, Faucon tracked the gradual demise of these two molecules. Amitraz followed practically the same curve of efficiency loss as Fluvalinate. As far as I am aware - this material has not been published as an academic paper or article. Contacting: jp.faucon@sophia.afssa.fr might get some info. Regards Peter :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 18:50:34 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: Illegal Miticides And what was the method used in applying this miticide? :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 19:16:49 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Illegal Miticides In-Reply-To: <200305312250.h4VMoYaV014445@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed >And what was the method used in applying this miticide? Amitraz...Taktic...is soaked into cardboard strips, and placed between the brood chambers. Mike :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::