From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 08:20:14 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-80.1 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,ADVANCE_FEE_2, AWL,DEAR_SOMETHING,MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id C76CA48FC4 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SDAZdO011456 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:21 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:19 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0309E" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 103505 Lines: 2384 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 21:59:18 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Hathaway Subject: Funny honey taste MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit My July extracting of honey was a bit disappointing. The honey had a strange taste to it. Some people thought they immediately detected a ‘minty’ taste to it, while others claimed to taste ‘horehound’. While some people (mostly those taking the honey for allergy purposes) thought it was tolerable, others say putting the honey on a biscuit or pancakes ruined the food. I have spoken with other hobby beekeepers in the area, - several others had the same experience with their first extracting of honey this year. One beekeeper thought it might be from Smart Weed. For at least two beekeepers, the second extracting of honey had no strange tastes to it. I was wondering if anybody else has had this same experience. Any ideas on the nectar source? What should I do with 100 lbs of honey honey? I was planning to feed it back to the bees. Does anybody know if this honey would lose its strange taste if it was used in cooking / baking recipes? I am a hobby beekeeper in North West Illinois. Thanks for any ideas. Jerry :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 23:57:59 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: Longevity of feral bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In the ‘Mailbox’ section of the July issue of Bee Culture magazine Richard Taylor writes a bit about Tom Seeley’s success in locating eight bee trees that were, Taylor says, “still thriving in the Fall”. He continues: “This Spring, in early May, before there had been any reports of swarming in this area, he checked and found six of these still flourishing.” In the September ‘Mailbox’ section of the magazine James Cowan from Aberdeen, Washington comments on Richard Taylor’s letter. (Mr. Cowan uses term ‘decoy’ hive instead of bait hive.) Part of his letter says: “In the last 35 or so years I’ve caught hundreds of swarms using decoys. Back in the pre-mite days, if I put out 10 decoys in April I would be guaranteed 10 swarms by the 4th of July. It was just that simple. Since the mite it’s been harder, but the last couple of years have been better.......It seems as if the swarms were smaller in size than I remembered and if I did get a big prime swarm in May they would cast a swarm in late June or July. I never had this happen before.” There do seem to be reports of feral hives returning. But are they truly thriving or just surviving? Regards, Dick Allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 23:48:48 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: feral hive in tree: damage? capture? In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20030928172106.010d8018@inmail.tcsn.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Of course they likely won't kill the tree. They don't create a hollow, and they really don't enlarge it. In fact they may prolong it's life by sealing the wood and protecting it from further rot. Physically removing the hive is obviously out as it would de story the tree (probably not want you want). You could use the standard cone method. It works, but that can take some time. I've been pretty successful at driving the bees out by heavily smoking them (with newspaper with bee go on it in the top of the smoker). Works best with two entrances. One to blow smoke in, and the other for the bees to escape from. (You can always drill another hole in the opposite end of the cavity. Eventually the bees will abscond and settle on a nearby tree or branch. You can they let another hive rob out the cavity before sealing it properly. I've only used this method twice, but it did work well when the bees needed to be removed quickly, alive, and with little damage to the structure or tree. If you aren't up to it you might find one in your area who will. (Though I know few willing to do removals where I am and It's almost never a free job. It's not worth doing the job just for a unknown bunch of 'free bees'). -Tim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 07:31:32 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Mites can't be so mighty Michael Palmer asked about work on the use of fungi for the control of varroa. I think that others may be able to provide a better update on the current situation, but the links below provide basic information. Our Association was fortunate to be able to visit HRI, which is just down the road from Stratford-upon-Avon, in early 2001 and meet Dr David Chandler and his team who gave us a fascinating talk about their work. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ http://www2.hri.ac.uk/view_article.php?cat=rast&subcat=&page=10283&showothers=go&page2= http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/2182948.stm http://www.rothamsted.bbsrc.ac.uk/pie/BrianGrp/BrianStaff.html http://www.rothamsted.bbsrc.ac.uk/pie/BrianGrp/BrianTheme2.html :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 23:18:30 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Kilty Subject: Re: A swarm swarms In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 In message , Kathy E Cox writes >Can you tell me why a swarm would swarm a second time? Do I still >stand a chance that they will swarm a third time? I hived a swarm a few years ago and moved it to a new site. The queen started to lay, so I felt quite happy they were staying put. A week later, I found they had moved to a larger hive where I was temporarily storing empty drawn comb. They reamed out the cells beautifully. Another one that hadn't read the books - bees always stay on larvae don't they! I had a swarm re-swarm before the larvae hatched this year. A couple of years ago it seemed that a fair proportion of swarms re-swarmed later once the new colony was established. I have had swarms move out of the hive I put them into and hang a bit further away from the original hive. I have given up putting a swarm back on its original site (one of the standard practices - I usually do this with the swarmed stock over the swarm) and now do the whole works - move it 3 miles or more and drop it in front of a hive on a sheet so they have to climb in. I reckon it makes sure they don't know the landmarks and have also done one of the two things they normally do after first clustering. I can't simulate flying! Scouts coming back to a hived colony may still persuade them of a better home and they may not like the scent of the hive. One tip I think it was either Chris Slade or Dave Cushman gave, is to use an empty super below the hive body to give them cluster space. -- James Kilty :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 11:12:42 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: Mites can't be so mighty MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "ed" " Perhaps someday > we will spray a solution into our hives that contains a bacteria/virus that > kills varroa but is harmless to bees. I know this idea has been raised at > least once on this list, does anyone know of research that points to a > solution here?" Keep an eye on the reasearch into fungi . Quote from Apis UK newsletter, taken from :www.beedata.com/apis-uk/newsletters/apis-uk0802.htm "FUNGI. THE LATEST VARROA DESTROYER? Fungi could soon be helping beekeepers to combat varroa as recent research has shown that certain fungi can kill varroa just as effectively as chemicals currently used for this task. We all know that chemicals are not a long term solution to varroa control and many beekeepers especially on the continent (including me) have lost colonies because of reliance on these chemicals which because of overuse have caused the emergence of resistance to them. Research into the use of fungi is being carried out by Dr David Chandler and Dr Gill davidson of the Horticultural research International Association in Warwickshire. Dr Chandler states that interest in fungal controls is increasing as the public become more concerned about the environmental impact of pesticide residues in food. The team has found more than 40 fungi that are able to kill varroa mites with 100 hours and although these fungi occur naturally, they are rarely encountered within a hive because the bees keep the hives so clean. The most promising types of fungi are now being tested to ensure that they are effective in the high temperature and humidity regimes of the brood nest. The fungal spores kill the mites over a week long period by penetrating their cuticle and poisoning the mite - drying it out and damaging its cells and organs. The research team is now is now embarking on a three year study in conjunction with the IACR Bee Research Unit in Rothamstead, Hertfordshire to identify the best strains of fungi and to find the best way of distributing them around the hive. Honeybees are already used to spread fungi on some commercial crops so it may be easy to adapt these methods to spread it around the hive, e.g. by providing a fungi footpath that bees have to walk through on entering the hive. " End of quote . Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 02:23:41 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Mites can't be so mighty MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Ed & All, > We do need a new perspective-it seems to me that the two camps > (chemical/non-chemical) which have provided so much interesting thought > lately on varroa are both trying to defend the positive aspects of their > positions but can't escape the respective (and quite real) negatives to each > side. > Could you expound on what you feel is the negative aspects of each camp? > Mites have seen a huge population explosion it seems that nature would find > a way to paratisize the parasites. Nature has already provided a a solution in some strains of apis. Africanized honey bees exhibit resistance and so do apis cerana. The bees that the Lusby's of Arizona are resistant too. SMR and Russian strains show resistance. I think somewhere in these strains is the key for vorroa control for the beekeeper and the bees we keep. If these strains are resistant we should not need to put any substance that the bees do not already bring in on there own. > This might seem a bit of a stretch, but I suggest that there is a more > gentle and compassionate perspective that could prove realistic in viewing > varroa which could be called "compassionate destruction". I think what I am doing by simply putting bees on a smaller brood cell size can be called "compassionate destruction" of the varroa mite. A few of the 25 colonies I keep are going into their third winter and the rest going into their second winter. This spring I started the season with 15 eintered out of 18 and I added one package bee, I have increased to 25 from the 16 and bred new queens for all. According to "The varroa handbook I should lose the bees I keep this winter or next, or lose my three year olds this this winter and the rest next winter. Maybe if I keep my fingers crossed they will survive. d:~)> Still keeping bees with only what the bees bring into the hive on their own. . .. c(((([ Keith Malone Chugiak, Alaska USA Caucasian Bee Keeper http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 06:31:17 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Funny honey taste In-Reply-To: <3F77A006.6080503@geneseo.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > My July extracting of honey was a bit disappointing. The honey had a >strange taste to it. Some people thought they immediately detected a >'minty' taste to it, while others claimed to taste 'horehound'. > >Jerry Was the honey made in July? Calling it "minty" makes me think it was Basswood. I find that some like it, and some don't...especially when it is mostly Basswood. I've never had trouble selling it as such. Try mixing 1 lb to 1 lb with other honey, and see if it weakens the flavor a bit. Mike :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 06:54:10 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Funny honey taste In-Reply-To: <3F77A006.6080503@geneseo.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Jerry Hathaway wrote: > My July extracting of honey was a bit disappointing. The honey had a > strange taste to it. Some people thought they immediately detected a > ‘minty’ taste to it, Boxwood (Linden) is classic for a minty taste. > > I was wondering if anybody else has had this same experience. Any ideas > on the nectar source? What should I do with 100 lbs of honey honey? I > was planning to feed it back to the bees. I look forward to it. It is not that common since it is not an annual honey. Some love it. Sell it as a specialty honey. Water white honey. One of the lightest I have seen in Maine. > Does anybody know if this honey would lose its strange taste if it was > used in cooking / baking recipes? Do not know. It appears to lose its aroma after a while. Most who used it wanted it just as it was. Just about any honey can be sold no matter what the taste as long as you market it as a specialty honey, the rarer the better. I have purchased many specialty honeys in different States and I thought the price was too much for the taste, but they do sell. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 10:03:40 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Adony Melathopoulos Subject: formic acid temperature and dose Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The effects of temperature and dose of formic acid on treatment efficacy against Varroa destructor (Acari: Varroidae), a parasite of Apis mellifera (Hymenoptera: Apidae) Robyn M. Underwood Department of Entomology, University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Manitoba, R3T 2N2, Canada (e-mail: underwoodrm@yahoo.com) Robert W. Currie Department of Entomology, University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Manitoba, R3T 2N2, Canada Abstract In order to decrease the variability of formic acid treatments against the honey bee parasite the varroa mite, Varroa destructor, it is necessary to determine the dose-time combination that best controls mites without harming bees. The concentration × time (CT) product is a valuable tool for studying fumigants and how they might perform under various environmental conditions. This laboratory study is an assessment of the efficacy of formic acid against the varroa mite under a range of formic acid concentrations and temperatures. The objectives are 1) to determine the effect of temperature and dose of formic acid on worker honey bee and varroa mite survival, 2) to determine the CT50 products for both honey bees and varroa mites and 3) to determine the best temperature and dose to optimize selectivity of formic acid treatment for control of varroa mites. Worker honey bees and varroa mites were fumigated at 0, 0.01, 0.02, 0.04, 0.08, and 0.16 mg/L at 5, 15, 25, and 35 °C for 12 d. Mite and bee mortality were assessed at regular intervals. Both mite and bee survival were affected by formic acid dose. Doses of 0.08 and 0.16 mg/L were effective at killing mites at all temperatures tested above 5 °C. There was a significant interaction between temperature, dose, and species for the CT50 product. The difference between the CT50 product of bees and mites was significant at only a few temperature-dose combinations. CT product values showed that at most temperatures the greatest fumigation efficiency occurred at lower doses of formic acid. However, the best fumigation efficiency and selectivity combination for treatments occurred at a dose of 0.16 mg/L when the temperature was 35 °C. ..................................................... Adony Melathopoulos, M.P.M. Apiculture Biotechnician / Biotechnicien en Apiculture Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada / Agriculture et Agroalimentaire Canada Telephone / Téléphone: 780-354-5130 Facsimile / Télécopieur: 780-354-8171 P.O. Box 29 / C.P. 29 Beaverlodge, Alberta / Beaverlodge (Alberta) T0H 0C0 Canada melathopoulosa@agr.gc.ca :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 08:02:57 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Longevity of feral bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Dick & All, Dick said: There do seem to be reports of feral hives returning. But are they truly thriving or just surviving? The true feral swarm ( feral for at least two years) will contain varroa mites, at least a few tracheal mites will be found and in most cases nosema. I realize most beekeepers are not able to test for the above but I am. When you find a so called feral hive which has been said to be around for years with no trace of any of the above in my opinion you are looking at a recent swarm from a treated hive. Every year new beekeepers pop up in my area. They buy equipment shipped in and start with shipped in packages. >From my own experience: IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO SAY THERE ARE NO HIVES IN YOUR AREA YOU DO NOT KNOW ABOUT! I have never tested a TRUE feral swarm in the last 10 years which I did not find varroa, Tracheal mites and nosema. To back up Dick's findings all true feral swarms I have looked at and tested were small which would seem right with the problems I found. Bees love to swarm to bee trees and places that bees have lived before! I have seen bees swarm to bee equipment over and over sitting out waiting to be burned which was "condemned by me as unfit for bee life" and be very happy! Outside my honey house door is a small place where bees brought in with supers which refused to join the hive sitting about four feet away started to draw a piece of comb about the size of a quarter. Even though I have scraped the comb clean bees will always start to congregate at the spot instead of drifting to the hive below. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 10:16:02 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Docteur André Simoneau Subject: formic acid residue MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit http://www.inchem.org/documents/jecfa/jecmono/v05je09.htm Here above is the reference where I found the following: Estimate of acceptable daily intake of formic acid for man: 0-3mg/kg If my weight is 100 kilos I could intake 300 mg of formic acid every day, Natural content of honey is 85 mg/kg and after spring treatment, the residue goes up to close to 300 mg/kg. When I wrote that 300mg/kg is far from the acceptable daily intake limit, I meant that nobody eats 1 kg of honey a day. My point is that treatment with formic acid will not constitute a toxic danger for human consumption. It is also mentionned in the above reference, that a daily consumption of 2000 to 4000mg in short term would not cause any intoxication symptoms in man. Docteur André Simoneau Médecin vétérinaire régional Montréal-Laval-Lanaudière MAPAQ-CQIASA Laboratoire de pathologie animale 867, boulevard L'Ange-Gardien L'Assomption, Québec Canada J5W 4M9 Téléphone: 450-589-5745 poste 275 Télécopie: 450-589-0648 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 09:26:05 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Subject: Re: Funny honey taste In-Reply-To: <3F77A006.6080503@geneseo.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 28 Sep 2003 at 21:59, Jerry Hathaway wrote: > My July extracting of honey was a bit disappointing. The honey had a > strange taste to it. Some people thought they immediately detected a > ‘minty’ taste to it, while others claimed to taste ‘horehound’. It sounds to me like basswood (American linden), which has a minty taste. Most people like it...in a mix with other honeys. When pure, it is a bit strong. One year I had a lot of water white comb sections of basswood. They were very pretty, with snowy wax. But it bit your tongue. Also be especially cautious about heating basswood. Small amounts used in a baking recipe would not be a problem, but if you overheat a tank of basswood honey in the slightest, you will have strong off-flavors. Dave Green The Pollination Home Page: http://pollinator.info Bass :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 09:40:10 -0400 Reply-To: lhhubbell@johnstown.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Leland Hubbell Organization: Tekoa Subject: Re: Funny Honey taste MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jerry wrote: "Does anybody know if this honey would lose its strange taste if it was used in cooking / baking recipes?" Try some and see. If it turns out 'yuck' you can throw the test out, and know what happens. I have had some honey that had a peculiar taste after 'aging' several months. Leland Hubbell :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 09:37:44 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: feral hive in tree: damage? capture? I'm a licensed California arborist, but I've never heard that one before. I suppose if a hive died off and the honey turned into vinegar after a rain or something it could harm a small or weak tree, but I suspect that the neighbors just want him to get rid of the bees and are trying to scare him. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 09:06:09 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Funny honey taste In-Reply-To: <3F780F52.7020308@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bill Truesdell wrote: > Jerry Hathaway wrote: > >> My July extracting of honey was a bit disappointing. The honey had a >> strange taste to it. Some people thought they immediately detected a >> ‘minty’ taste to it, > > > Boxwood (Linden) is classic for a minty taste. Basswood- sorry. Bill Truesdell Bath,Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 08:28:51 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: AL Subject: Re: Funny honey taste In-Reply-To: <3F780F52.7020308@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bill Truesdell wrote: > Jerry Hathaway wrote: > >> My July extracting of honey was a bit disappointing. The honey had a >> strange taste to it. Some people thought they immediately detected a >> ‘minty’ taste to it, > > > Boxwood (Linden) is classic for a minty taste. > >> >> I was wondering if anybody else has had this same experience. Any ideas >> on the nectar source? What should I do with 100 lbs of honey honey? I >> was planning to feed it back to the bees. > Most who used it wanted it just as it was. Just about any honey can be > sold no matter what the taste as long as you market it as a specialty > honey, the rarer the better. I have purchased many specialty honeys in > different States and I thought the price was too much for the taste, but > they do sell. July would be too early for Goldenrod, but from my experience with Goldenrod honey I'd have to agree with Bill - there *is* a market. I don't pretend to know anything about Boxwood honey, but Goldenrod does improve with age. I kept 80lb+ of goldenrod in bottling buckets for almost 2 years. The aroma had mellowed and so had the flavor. I had buyers wanting refills and some, who associate goldenrod with fall allergies, wanted it for a remedy. I saw no reason to mention what I'd heard about goldenrod pollen being too heavy for airborne travel... Goldenrod doesn't enjoy the benefit of an identifiable flavor like mint, so I too would suggest 'marketing' it as a specialty honey. AL :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 11:40:15 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Timothy Eisele Subject: Re: Funny honey taste In-Reply-To: <3F783393.1000408@hcis.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 29 Sep 2003, AL wrote: > Goldenrod doesn't enjoy the benefit of an identifiable flavor like mint, > so I too would suggest 'marketing' it as a specialty honey. > This year, most of my hives put up honey during August, when the primary blooms in the area seemed to be tansy, goldenrod, and spotted knapweed. The honey is a medium amber, and it has an interesting "fruity" flavor that I never noticed in previous years. I don't know what is responsible for the flavor, but it is selling very well at $6 for a 10-ounce jar :-) -- Tim Eisele tceisele@mtu.edu :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 11:54:38 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Adony Melathopoulos Subject: honey bees and greenhouse pollination Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Journal of Economic Entomology: Vol. 96, No. 3, pp. 547-554. Managing Honey Bees (Hymenoptera: Apidae) for Greenhouse Tomato Pollination Holly A. Sabara and Mark L. Winston ABSTRACT Although commercially reared colonies of bumble bees (Bombus sp.) are the primary pollinator world-wide for greenhouse tomatoes (Lycopersicon esculentum Mill.) previous research indicates that honey bees (Apis mellifera L.) might be a feasible alternative or supplement to bumble bee pollination. However, management methods for honey bee greenhouse tomato pollination scarcely have been explored. We 1) tested the effect of initial amounts of brood on colony population size and flight activity in screened greenhouses during the winter, and 2) compared foraging from colonies with brood used within screened and unscreened greenhouses during the summer. Brood rearing was maintained at low levels in both brood and no-brood colonies after 21 d during the winter, and emerging honey bees from both treatments had significantly lower weights than bees from outdoor colonies. Honey bee flight activity throughout the day and over the 21 d in the greenhouse was not influenced by initial brood level. In our summer experiment, brood production in screened greenhouses neared zero after 21 d but higher levels of brood were reared in unscreened greenhouses with access to outside forage. Flower visitation measured throughout the day and over the 21 d the colonies were in the greenhouse was not influenced by screening treatment. An economic analysis indicated that managing honey bees for greenhouse tomato pollination would be financially viable for both beekeepers and growers. We conclude that honey bees can be successfully managed for greenhouse tomato pollination in both screened and unscreened greenhouses if the foraging force is maintained by replacing colonies every 3 wk. Keywords: honey bee, Apis mellifera, pollination, greenhouse, tomatoes, colony management. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 12:20:16 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Subject: Re: Funny honey taste In-Reply-To: <3F783393.1000408@hcis.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 29 Sep 2003 at 8:28, AL wrote: > I had > buyers wanting refills and some, who associate goldenrod with fall > allergies, wanted it for a remedy. I saw no reason to mention what I'd > heard about goldenrod pollen being too heavy for airborne travel... For what it's worth: I've seen honey analyses that showed that ragweed pollen is present in the sample. Since I've never seen bees "work" ragweed, I conclude they must be simply picking it up inadvertantly. Ragweed puts out so much pollen that it (mostly invisibly) coats everything during its bloom. Remember that bees are electrostatically charged. It's not hard to see how a bee sitting on a leaf, grooming itself, could be adding some ragweed pollen to the mix. Dave Green The Pollination Home Page: http://pollinator.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 10:45:26 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Hensler Subject: Re: Funny honey taste ----- Original Message ----- From: "Timothy Eisele" > This year, most of my hives put up honey during August, when the primary > blooms in the area seemed to be tansy, goldenrod, and spotted knapweed. > The honey is a medium amber, and it has an interesting "fruity" flavor > that I never noticed in previous years. I don't know what is responsible > for the flavor, but it is selling very well at $6 for a 10-ounce jar :-) FWIW we don't have any tansy or goldenrod here but I plant buckwheat to bloom the same time as the knap weed, which is rapidly taking over the county. The honey taken from that flow varies from amber to dark amber, and is just 'about the best flavored honey we've ever tasted. Our buyers seem to agree... Skip Skip & Christy Hensler THE ROCK GARDEN Newport, WA http://www.povn.com/rock/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 12:40:17 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: AL Subject: Re: Funny honey taste In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Timothy Eisele wrote: > This year, most of my hives put up honey during August, when the primary > blooms in the area seemed to be tansy, goldenrod, and spotted knapweed. > The honey is a medium amber, and it has an interesting "fruity" flavor > that I never noticed in previous years. I don't know what is responsible > for the flavor, but it is selling very well at $6 for a 10-ounce jar :-) Good grief!!! I never realized I had such a goldmine in goldenrod - whaddaya think of *that* Skip??? Another characteristic of goldenrod vs. other sources seems to be the viscosity - this stuff was *very* thick and kind of waxy, almost ...slimy. Yeah I know, that's a terrible description for a food item but a spoonful in the mouth does not feel the same as "regular" honey. I don't think I've ever seen a discussion of 'mouthfeel' qualities of honey, but goldenrod is certainly different. Wow! - six bucks for 10oz - whodathunkit... AL :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 14:18:07 -0400 Reply-To: lhhubbell@johnstown.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Leland Hubbell Organization: Tekoa Subject: Re: Funny Honey taste MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit OOOps!! Should have read "LOST the peculiar taste after aging several months." Also, I agree with Al that goldenrod flavor improves over time. Leand > Jerry wrote: > "Does anybody know if this honey would lose its strange taste if > it was used in cooking / baking recipes?" > > Try some and see. If it turns out 'yuck' you can throw the test > out, and know what happens. > I have had some honey that had a peculiar taste after 'aging' > several months. > > Leland Hubbell > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 15:12:50 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Donald Campbell Subject: Re: Longevity of feral bees MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hi all, I've been lurking here for a few weeks, reading all the posts on the survival and "return" of feral bees, and Yoon's and other attempts to be chemical free. I have a theory on this, of course, I have no proof just My Humble Option, so please be kind in your response. These feral bees seem to be acquiring (thru natural selection in their fight against mites, beetles, ect) some of the traits that their cousins in Africa have. The African bee has been living with the mites and beetles for a lot longer then our North American/European bees. The Africa bee has developed some survival strategies to help it deal with its African environment. Could these feral colonies here in North America be developing the same survival techniques? I read the article, like Dick Allen referred to, in July's Bee Culture. I believe the feral bees have developed the survival trait, like their African cousins, of frequent and easily triggered absconding. This would not make them very good in a langstrom hive. But by leaving a home full of 'pests' and moving to a new home to start over again would keep the species alive, it might be something we (as beekeepers) should ponder. IMHO, so be kind! Don Mohegan Lake, NY :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 16:02:14 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Timothy Eisele Subject: Re: Funny honey taste In-Reply-To: <3F786E81.603@hcis.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 29 Sep 2003, AL wrote: > Wow! - six bucks for 10oz - whodathunkit... > Well, back when I first joined this list some years ago, I recall several people (I think George Imirie was particularly emphatic) pointing out that a hobbyist selling cheap honey wasn't doing anybody any favors, between depressing the price for people who were trying to make a *living* from their honey, and encouraging customers to think of *your* honey in the same terms as *supermarket* honey. At a minimum, they pointed out that if you don't charge at *least* your cost of production, you might as well give it away. So, I took their advice to heart. Granted, the price got that high largely through a miscommunication. I worked out that if I got $2.50/lb it would cover my costs. So, I added another $1.50 for my time, and told my wife that she could sell it for $6/lb and keep $2/lb as her commission. But, she thought that the half-pint jars that we put it up in weighed a *pound*, rather than just a bit over half that, and so we ended up charging almost twice as much as we originally intended. But then, we found out that people really liked our honey, and were *happy to pay that much!* It probably helps that there is nobody much selling varietal honeys around here, so the people who want something different from the rather insipid blend in the local grocery stores don't really have a lot of other choices. Plus our production isn't that high (only about 100 lb/year at this point) so we are a long way from saturating the market. Besides, our honey *is* very good, if I do say so myself :-) -- Tim Eisele tceisele@mtu.edu :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 13:21:31 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Hensler Subject: Re: Funny honey taste ----- Original Message ----- From: "AL" > > The honey is a medium amber, and it has an interesting "fruity" flavor > > that I never noticed in previous years. I don't know what is responsible > > for the flavor, but it is selling very well at $6 for a 10-ounce jar :-) > > > Good grief!!! I never realized I had such a goldmine in goldenrod - > whaddaya think of *that* Skip??? > Wow! - six bucks for 10oz - whodathunkit... In Marketing 101 there is a theory that, within limits of course, the more you charge for any given item, the more folks want it. Something to do with low price = cheap, while a higher price must certainly = better value... While we're on the subject, what are small, direct sales beekeepers getting for their product in different parts of the world? How are you all packaging and marketing your honey, and who are your buyers, i. e. local retired folks or upscale tourists? Be honest now. :-) Here in rural, predominately low income inland Pacific NW US we market both through a small local feed store and with a sign at the end of our lane on a secondary county road. There is only one other beekeeper who sells direct and he only does so at the local Farmer's Market. We are strictly small time producers, with annual production of between 25 - 35 gal., which we market as Light, Amber, Dark Amber and Dark (beer drinkers in particular seem to be able to relate.) We increase the price by .25 cents with each step up in color, starting at $5.00 Qt. We don't make any claims about our honey except that it is local, not heated and not filtered. Whenever anyone comments on curing allergies, etc. I merely nod my head, try to look wise and venture "Yes, I've heard that." :-) We do offer free samples to first time customers, and we encourage everyone to bring the jars back for refills in order to lower the cost of marketing. Skip Skip & Christy Hensler THE ROCK GARDEN Newport, WA http://www.povn.com/rock/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 15:29:29 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Inger Lamb Subject: Re: Funny Honey taste In-Reply-To: <3F78775F.1030507@johnstown.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Here in Iowa (central US) the DNR encourages landowners to plant sorghum as a food plot for game birds (why they don't suggest planting a prairie is beyond the scope of this list). Last year some neighbors planted a few acres of sorghum, which our bees focused on heavily after the soybeans dried up. The late harvest honey smelled and tasted so strongly of sorghum many who sampled it felt sure it must have been blended with sorghum syrup. It was quite dark too. I camouflaged it in hearty grain bread recipes (my family wouldn't eat it otherwise), but even so when I first cut open a loaf I could smell sorghum very strongly....not a positive in my book. I know some use sorghum for cooking, that's fine...but not if you're not expecting sweet honey flavoring and odor. I was glad the neighbors didn't plant sorghum this year! Our late harvest was slightly darker but still tastes wonderful. Inger :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 15:14:49 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Funny honey taste MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tim said: > so I too would suggest 'marketing' it as a specialty honey. So we should market funny honey taste honey as a specialty honey and charge a higher price. Hmmm. Last Friday I was pulling honey supers off hives on a certified organic 80 acre farm. The owner asked the lady doing the certification if the honey produced on the farm would be certified organic. She said everything produced *on* the farm would be certified organic and since the bees might gather nectar from off the farm the honey would be produced on the farm ( nectar to honey)so yes the honey would be certified organic. The honey looks and tastes exactly like the honey from my nearest yard two miles away but maybe I should charge *double* for the certified organic honey (if there is such a honey).. Tim said: I don't know what is responsible for the flavor, but it is selling very well at $6 for a 10-ounce jar :-) I think Tim is wise to try and get top dollar for his honey. if you produce a small amount and wish to recoup money spent on your hobby you need to forget the price honey is selling for in the stores. Price according to your investment in time and money. People will pay for a quality product. A higher price than the other honey on the store shelf will cause slow sales as you are not standing in front of the buyer to explain why you feel your product is worth the higher price. Tim is! Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 17:35:12 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Longevity of feral bees In-Reply-To: <000f01c386bd$b6b98ba0$6401a8c0@upstairs> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Donald Campbell wrote: > I read the article, like Dick Allen referred to, in July's Bee Culture. I > believe the feral bees have developed the survival trait, like their African > cousins, of frequent and easily triggered absconding. You are not alone in that thought. I started to post exactly the same thing. What caused me to not do so was the difference in size and that the larger "swarms" did swarm again and not abscond. There is nothing unusual in "selecting" for absconding since it is a trait of AM as well as AHB and for the same reasons. So I would not rule it out, but, equally, it may have nothing to due with what is observed. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 17:40:58 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Check Mite Plus Vs Apistan Strips MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit << From: "h.morton@worldnet.att.net" I'm considering using Check Mite Plus in my hives for varroa control. I have been using apistan strips both spring and fall. >> Why? I have had varroa in my hives for a decade and never found the need to treat more than once a year; sometimes less. The usual treatment in UK has been Bayvarol which came on the market earlier than Apistan. Chris :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 19:58:13 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: george seferiadis Subject: metarhizium fungai MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Metarhizium anisopliae kill certain insects by invading the body and = multipluing throughout. The insect dies from tissue destruction caused = by the proliferation of the fungus and the production of FUNGAL TOXINS. = Because of the danger of the fungal toxins contaminating the = environment, this strain of Metarhizium will have to pass EXTENSIVE = safety tests before any possible commerical application. I wonder how = extensive there research was? george :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 21:05:57 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tom Martin Subject: Re: honey bees and greenhouse pollination In-Reply-To: <200309291600.h8TAoma0001971@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit How did they prevent the bees from bouncing off of the screens until they were dead? We have a produce grower close by. He grows tomatoes in greenhouses for an early start. When the tomatoes are blooming he opens the curtains and sets a hive beside the greenhouse. Tom Shippensburg, Pa Journal of Economic Entomology: Vol. 96, No. 3, pp. 547-554. Managing Honey Bees (Hymenoptera: Apidae) for Greenhouse Tomato Pollination Holly A. Sabara and Mark L. Winston and flight activity in screened greenhouses during the winter, and 2) compared foraging from colonies with brood used within screened and unscreened greenhouses during the summer. In our summer experiment, brood production in screened greenhouses neared zero after 21 d but higher :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 21:31:20 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Hathaway Subject: Re: Funny honey taste In-Reply-To: <3F77FAAD.25880.BE64C8@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dave wrote: >One year I had a lot of water white comb sections of basswood. They were very pretty, with snowy wax. But >it bit your tongue. > That sounds like the honey I have, light but it bites your tongue. It almost has a medicine taste, like a cough drop. My wife says it tastes like horehound. I will try blending it with some milder honey. Thanks for all your help. Jerry :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 00:19:28 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: ed Subject: Re: Mites can't be so mighty MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thank you Bob Harrison for being willing to point out again and again that people who use chemicals in hives do so only as a temporary measure and that people who go with or without chemicals are really in the same camp. It needs repeating often. Yet I did frame the discussion as a chemical/non-chemical choice because that is how I see it (and because I mediate-that is mediate without a "c"). The choice is really not a purely "use or not use" one, but a range of careful options. Keith Malone asks me to expound on what I see as the negatives. Easy to say the entire, although substantial, negative in not using chemicals is that the bees too often die. The only negative in using chemicals from a practical point of view is the build up in wax. I like using wax for soaps, lip balms and candles. How much should I be concerned about chemical build up? Maybe not too much from a personal point of view but as an industry-do we need to unintentionally create a market of "organic" wax? There are neccessary costs to modern life. I realise that my family burns up about 1,400 gallons of fuel each year, as an example, and I grieve a bit that the exhaust may be harmful. My own daughter has had lifelong problems with asthma. But burning fuel is just one of many "neccessary evils" which I will continue. Maybe chemical buildup in wax should be looked at in that way, too. Life is messy. And yet I resist putting chemicals in hives not for practical reasons or because I am unwilling to label something a neccessary evil but because I primarily want the luxury to look to bee keeping as a window into seeing the natural world apart from humanity. I am not looking for efficiency (efficiency is not by itself a moral good-look at Germany 60 years ago). The luxury for me in beekeeping is looking for a reminder that God has created this great big world of life (and even death) of which we are only a small part. This is to say I am obviously a hobbyist able to risk a little and lose a little from a financial perspective. I do not begrudge the use of chemicals. The felt intent of putting in fungi feels gentler to me (the beekeeper) although obviously if I was the mite I migtht disagree. The primary negative of the use of chemicals is the loss of the romance of the hobby. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 10:02:36 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: metarhizium fungai MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "george seferiadis" "Metarhizium anisopliae kill certain insects by invading the body and multipluing throughout. The insect dies from tissue destruction caused by the proliferation of the fungus and the production of FUNGAL TOXINS. Because of the danger of the fungal toxins contaminating the environment, this strain of Metarhizium will have to pass EXTENSIVE safety tests before any possible commerical application. I wonder how extensive there research was?" The UK has very tight standards on safety . Fungi are already used to control other pests (I believe). And presumably the toxins are formed within the body of the mites - a very small bio-mass, so not a lot of toxin. And the bees would clean out any dead bodies that had not fallen thru a permanent mesh floor. Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 11:23:40 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jean-Marie Van Dyck Subject: Nov. 22-23, European beekeep. Congress Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dear Madam, dear Sir, We are pleased to inform you that CARI (Centre Apicole de Recherche et d' Information) will be holding an international congress "What future for European beekeeping?" in Louvain-la-Neuve (27 km from the Brussels' "Grand-Place") on November 22 and 23, 2003. This event will be a unique opportunity for European beekeepers to keep informed of the latest developments in a number of vital matters such as GMO's, bees mortalities or the entry of new partner countries into the EU. We have to seize on this opportunity to think over and build together tomorrow's beekeeping. A dense programme ... Two full days to get informed and debate on the challenges of 21st century beekeeping. Which bee breed for tomorrow ? Place of honey bees in our rapidly changing and deteriorating environment Computerised beekeeping , quality requirements and use of medication Impact of new partner countries ; new hive products on the market ? Beekeeping as an instrument of rural development ? An exhibition ... High performance beekeeping equipment Poster presentation A CARI organisation ... As a non-profit organisation, CARI offers information and advice to beekeepers, technical assistance, specialized training, a bimonthl publication "Abeilles & Cie", as well as a widely renowned honey analysis service. We are celebrating our 20th anniversary this year. A very special place ... Louvain-la-Neuve arose in the middle of nowhere some 30 years ago as a result of the partition of our historical Louvain/Leuven university. It is now a thriving city where student life still prevails (50 % of French-speaking students graduate here), although it attracts more and more non-students. The bustling, widely pedestrian urban centre is scattered with charming little squares and cafés, enhanced by a very special architecture integrating a large number of pieces of art. Our congress will be held in Socrates Hall , one of the most prestigious halls in the heart of the city. Congress tours We offer 2 optional tours on Monday, November 24 : Brussels : sightseeing tour + free afternoon browsing Leuven : guided walking tour Information, full programme, fees and registration, see our web site : http://www.cari.be Or contact snail mail : CARI asbl, place Croix du Sud, 4 B-1348 Louvain-la-Neuve (Belgium) email : info@cari.be Phone : +32 (0)10 473416 Fax : +32 (0)10 473494 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 05:40:49 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kurt Bower Subject: Re: Funny honey taste Bob said The owner asked the lady doing the certification if the honey produced on the farm would be certified organic. She said everything produced *on* the farm would be certified organic and since the bees might gather nectar from off the farm the honey would be produced on the farm (nectar to honey)so yes the honey would be certified organic. According to Kim Flottum's article in BeeCulture's September online archive this would be incorrect as I read it. Kim say's Basically your bees must always have sufficient organic forage. Regulations specify that within the area surrounding your hives - a flexible circle extending about two miles in every direction... Please see http://www.beeculture.com/beeculture/months/03sep/03sep3.htm for complete article on producing organic honey. I do not believe that simply allowing the bees to gather nectar and "produce" honey on the farm qualifies as "certified organic" I hope this has helped. Kurt Bower Julian, NC USA :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 07:36:44 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Mites can't be so mighty and Metarhizium In-Reply-To: <003101c3870a$09eff790$41563f42@A15262.ecpm.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ed wrote: > The felt > intent of putting in fungi feels gentler to me (the beekeeper) although > obviously if I was the mite I migtht disagree. The primary negative of the > use of chemicals is the loss of the romance of the hobby. George wrote > Because of the danger of the fungal toxins contaminating the > environment, this strain of Metarhizium will have to pass EXTENSIVE > safety tests before any possible commerical application. I wonder how > extensive there research was? I come from the school that beekeeping is inherently unnatural so what we do in the hive is measured by degree and by our own biases. If we are "holistic" our bees get that treatment. If we have no problem with antibiotics, neither will our bees. If we put flea collars on our dogs, we would fit our bees for them. The thought that bringing in a fungus is natural fits my school that nothing we bring in is natural. In fact, I am bothered by it. It is definitely unnatural and has problems. Gorge notes that safety tests must be run. Here are two. 1. Spreading beyond the hive. All our other treatments are confined to the hive. Here we have one that can easily be transported well beyond it. Currently strawberries can be treated by dusting the front of the hive with whatever you are treating them for and allowing the bees to transport it to the plant. It works. The bad PR that could be generated by "Bees contaminate the environment with killer fungus- Bees responsible for massive insect deaths" is something we can live without. 2. Fungal toxins in honey or wax. All our other methods of controlling varroa or any pest/disease have an approved application time and duration. Like diamonds, fungi are forever. Once introduced into the hive, how do you limit the exposure of honey supers to the fungus? Or the toxins in wax? Even if it could not live in honey, the headlines would still be "Killer fungus found in Honey!" Another PR nightmare. I am with Bob and most, what I consider, responsible beekeepers. We want to limit what we do in the hive. But if we are responsible, we owe something to our bees (and in the case of commercial beekeepers, livelihood) to keep them alive as well as the profession of beekeeping by not doing things that are harmful to the reputation of beekeeping. If someone uses Checkmite, fine, even though I would never use an organophosphate. It is approved in some areas so is legal and works (for a while). Where I have serious problems is with unproven and anecdotal treatments, most all of which are not approved, but which are touted as natural. As I said, nothing we do is natural. We are manipulating nature when we put them in a box. From then on, it is a matter of degree, our own biases, and responsibility. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 08:32:07 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Todd Subject: Product Pricing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Skip Hensler's post [funny honey taste], touches on the subject of = product pricing. He notes that sometimes a product will sell better = when priced higher, seemingly at odds with common sense. It's true. =20 About 20 years ago, I worked as a salesman in a stereo & electronics = retail store. The store owner bought a huge number of very cheap = headphones from China, and tried selling them at $1.99 a set. They = didn't sell. Desperate to get rid of these things, he remarked them at = $14.99 a pair - they sold out within two weeks. This was to be one of = those lessons in human psychology that I'll never forget, and still = apply in my own business. I'm not sure if this concept applies directly to local honey pricing, = but it's well worth keeping in the back of your mind when deliberating = on a product price. Regards, Todd.=20 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 08:11:31 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: formic acid residue In-Reply-To: <59C4FA4389E5D411AFE00002A51B9D893281EC@LASS1-NTCOUP1.mapaq.gouv.qc.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Docteur André Simoneau writes: If my weight is 100 kilos I could intake 300 mg of formic acid every day, Natural content of honey is 85 mg/kg and after spring treatment, the residue goes up to close to 300 mg/kg. When I wrote that 300mg/kg is far from the acceptable daily intake limit, I meant that nobody eats 1 kg of honey a day. My point is that treatment with formic acid will not constitute a toxi danger for human consumption. Reply: This is very good information to know. But seeing that the residue goes up to close to 300 mg/kg for normal treatments (assuming it could be higher or lower for not normal then) how long does it stay at this level and at what rate decline back down to normal following treatment? Also since humans are much bigger then bees by weight, etc. then the residues would effect the bees and other relationships within a colony. Can you point me to other sites on what it does to the trachae, or soft exoskelton of the honey bee (burn holes for vectoring in disease) as I have heard that AFB and foul broods are bad following treatments! Is this true on the fouls? Also I have heard much death of larva having to be removed and redone within colonies treated. At what level of residue or treatment does this take place, or can it be avoided with proper treatments, properly timed with temperature? You then wrote: It is also mentionned in the above reference, that a daily consumption of 2000 to 4000mg in short term would not cause any intoxication symptoms in man. Reply: I did not know that this could cause intoxication symptoms in man in the short term. But you mention short term. Is there a long term (brain problems) concerning problems with usage and exposure (breathing). What would be the intoxication symptoms concerning bees? This I have never heard about, that is, formic acid causing intoxication in bees? How long does it last, and how does it differ from that of pesticides for knowing what you are looking at or for? I am learning much from you and would like to learn more! Regards, Dee A. Lusby Commercial Beekeeper http:groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 12:56:55 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Beeswax for cosmetics (was Mites can't be so mighty) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ed asks: I like using wax for soaps, lip balms and candles. How much should I be concerned about chemical build up? Very! If the wax comes from comb on which any chemical has been used. I am the beekeeper at the largest farmers market in the six state area. I come in contact with many people. Several people have reported that they have broken out and had reactions from products made from beeswax bought at a local hobby store. The hobby store wax is obviously to me wax from old brood comb bought on the open market because of the color . I went to several stores to look at the wax for myself. I sell and use in my beeswax products only wax from cappings. I suggest all on the list do the same . I simply would never use brood comb wax for soaps and cosmetics as wax from old brood comb is a sink for chemicals from the environment plus meds put in the hive by the beekeeper. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 18:33:37 +0100 Reply-To: max.watkins@vita-europe.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Max Watkins Subject: Re: Mite resistance In-Reply-To: <001b01c38423$c426ba20$0fa59bd0@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bob, I think Mike & Peter have really answered the questions on typical resistance expression within a population. To predict the exact length of time a treatment will be effective in pest control is practically impossible but educated guesses can be made if the pest reproductive rate, effects of climate, treatment modes of action and treatment use pattern are known precisely. Not a lot of people know that. Or rather, not a lot of people know all of that! Using at least two treatments with different modes of action should slow down the apparition of resistant strains of mites as Peter said, as the mites have to cope with detoxifying (for example) the substances in different ways and fewer individuals resistant to both treatments are likely to survive than if just one treatment were being applied continually. True again, you're never going to get 100% of the mites all the time, no matter what treatment you use and there's a risk that any that do survive a treatment may confer resistance genes to their offspring. Having a third or a fourth or even a fifth different type of treatment (including mechanical methods) will help keep any surviving mites to a minimum. 100% control of any pest is difficult to achieve except in isolated areas/habitats; generally it's not sustainable because of pest migration. Reversion of pyrethroid/coumaphos resistance in varroa mites would be possible but it depends on these active ingredients being abandoned for several years to allow any fitness the [resistant] mites may have over the susceptible ones to be lost from the population. There's always a cost to the organism [mites in this case] in being resistant and if the selection pressure, ie the treatment type, is removed then the "normal" susceptible characters will once again predominate in a population. The mites will have reverted to a more susceptible strain, generally. Reversion to pyrethroid resistance in varroa has been studied here in Europe, especially in Italy and it seems that after 4 to 5 years of very low usage of pyrethroids, the level of resistance in varroa populations has diminished. After 5 years of non-use in Italy, Apistan is now in 2003 once again giving good control of varroa mites. It may not last and will not be recommended if the levels of resistance are seen to increase dramatically. It's being constantly monitored. Rotation with other products (essential oils, organic acids, biomechanical methods etc) may prolong the lifespan of the treatment. I don't know if the same can be done in The States - you have to convince people to adopt an IPM approach, which isn't easy. Another question was on thymol. Raw, dry thymol can be an irritant to human skin and eyes but you'd have to be exposed to a lot of it to get headaches etc. As with all pesticides, the user should take care to minimise his/her risk. Thymol is much less toxic than most other varroa treatment actives but caution is still needed. At temperatures above 90F raw thymol/dry thymol preparations may start to damage bee brood. That's probably why Apilife Var put the restriction on the label. In answer to your question, no it's not what we've seen with Apiguard. We generally get better control as the temperature increases, in tests up to 43°C with little effect on the brood or on the bees. This is a factor of formulation. Apiguard, as a gel can be used at higher temperatures as well as lower ones (15°C). Saying that, I'm sure that Apilife Var will provide control of varroa at "low-medium" temperatures in The States, until something better comes along. Best regards, Max Dr Max Watkins Vita (Europe) Limited 21/23 Wote Street Basingstoke Hampshire RG21 7NE UK Tel.: +44 (0) 1256 473177 Fax: +44 (0) 1256 473179 e-mail: max.watkins@vita-europe.com web: http://www.vita-europe.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 19:36:42 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Mites can't be so mighty Ed said: > The only negative in using chemicals from a practical point of view is the > build up in wax. Thymol does not dissolve in wax. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 12:53:05 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "E.A. Vogt" Subject: Turkish honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All --- Recently, a friend gave me a bottle of Turkish honey ("tukas"), which looks and tastes (to me) like molasses. The label on the jar provides little information, and the plant pictured on the label looks like a coniferous plant ! I searched the bee-l archives and found very little information re: honey from Turkey. I realize beekeeping, pollination, and honey production must be quite a large industry there. Anyone out there have a good source of information I could access about types of honey in that country ? Thank you. Sincerely, Elizabeth Vogt Vashon, WA :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 22:25:38 +0100 Reply-To: pdillon@club-internet.fr Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Organization: Home Subject: Re: Mite resistance MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Attempting to dig into the treasure trove of knowledge held by others (using Bee-L!), Max. Watkins made the comment that: "There's always a cost to the organism [mites in this case] in being resistant and if the selection pressure, i.e. the treatment type, is removed then the "normal" susceptible characters will once again predominate in a population." This feature may be common knowledge to many! - but not me. Are the mites exhibiting a change from the "original model" having to pay in some metabolic manner (eg.energy expenditure etc.) in the fueling of their resistance? The manner in which the "cost to the organism" is presented suggests that it, the cost, is one that is detrimental - when compared to the "original" infesting beast. Taking this into another domain: Breeding of bees. Using the above as a truth, any selection for a trait, i.e. using a character and enhancing it will therefore have a cost, when the "new strain" is compared to the original. This would therefore suggest that a strain of bee exhibiting many of the required beekeepers aspirations is a pipe dream. Not only that, but the further we get away from the original model - the worse matters are going to be. Selective breeding according to the above may result in bees being better for some traits but as time progresses, the pressures from other costs will eventually deem that improvement will be overridden by the disadvantages arriving from ever more directions, such as bacterial, parasite and viral vulnerability. Concluding question: How good is "new"? Regards, Peter :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 16:06:28 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: formic acid residue MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, Let's overlook oral intake of formic acid for a minute and consider the fumes. I may be way off base and maybe should not even do the post as I am only going from memory. Please correct me if my memory is off or the chemical used in the movie was not formic acid. Sorry but I can not remember the name of the movie based on a true story. In the movie the largest class action lawsuit in the U.S. at the time was over health problems of workers taning leather with liquid formic acid ( I believe from memory). The health problems were from breathing the fumes and the company illegally dumping the formic acid water in a nearby creek. Bob going out on a limb here. Am I way off base or do others remember the movie/story? Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 16:22:43 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Funny honey taste MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kurt said: I do not believe that simply allowing the bees to gather nectar and "produce" honey on the farm qualifies as "certified organic" Neither do I Kurt! I also believe that there is no such thing as organic honey. "certified organic honey" is simply a ploy to get a higher market price from the uninformed honey buyer and by saying other beekeepers honey is somehow inferior. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 14:51:57 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Benson Subject: Re: formic acid residue MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dee Lusby wrote: >Docteur André Simoneau writes: > >If my weight is 100 kilos I could intake 300 mg of formic >acid every day, Natural content of honey is 85 mg/kg and >after spring treatment, the residue goes up to close to 300 >mg/kg. When I wrote that 300mg/kg is far from the >acceptable daily intake limit, I meant that nobody eats 1 >kg of honey a day. My point is that treatment with formic >acid will not constitute a toxi danger for human >consumption. > >Reply: >This is very good information to know. But seeing that the >residue goes up to close to 300 mg/kg for normal treatments >(assuming it could be higher or lower for not normal then) >how long does it stay at this level and at what rate >decline back down to normal following treatment? Also since >humans are much bigger then bees by weight, etc. then the >residues would effect the bees and other relationships >within a colony. > You cannot make this statement - well, lets face it, you did, but you cannot make this statement and be completely truthful with the information at hand. Here's why. First, he gave the dose as a mg/kg. Do you know what the lethal levels of formic acid on a mg/kg basis are in bees? Nope. These things are often species specific - so if you do not know, you can merely speculate. If you are speculating you can do so in the negative (well it is prolly bad) or the positive (its prolly OK) and without data - either argument is as valid as the other, which is to say, not really valid at all. Second, because the subtle nuances of different species physiologie's can have profound effects on their ability to deal with different substances, it is hard to make sweeping generalizations, in other words: different species may be better able to cope with certain substances than others. This is not size dependant it is species dependant. In fact if there is one such generalization that works much of the time it is that smaller critters can tolerate more of a given substance than larger critters - on a per pound (or kg) basis. In this instance thought the issues of the difference or similarities in toxicity between man and bee are sufficiently different that such an inference would be wildly speculative and very unproductive. So if you seek to be accurate you could say the following: "the residues might effect the bees and other relationships within a colony." not " the residues would effect the bees and other relationships within a colony" I.e., you do not know if it will have any effect in such at all. >You then wrote: >It is also mentionned in the above reference, that a daily >consumption of 2000 to 4000mg in short term would not cause >any intoxication symptoms in man. > >Reply: >I did not know that this could cause intoxication symptoms >in man in the short term. > I beleive, he wrote above that it does not cause intoxication in the short term. Of course it could - at much higher levels - after all it is an acid, and therefore at elast a local irritant in sufficient concentration. Any substance, in sufficient quantity can be dangerous anc act as a toxin. Even honey. The definition her for intoxication is simply to poison, not to make drunken or stuperous BTW. > But you mention short term. Is >there a long term (brain problems) concerning problems with >usage and exposure (breathing). > According to the websites posted - not at such levels. > What would be the >intoxication symptoms concerning bees? This I have never >heard about, that is, formic acid causing intoxication in >bees? > You mentioned brood being killed if the stuff is used improperly - that would be one. Keith :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 17:52:35 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Mite resistance In-Reply-To: <3F79F4D2.3A42E493@club-internet.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Dillon wrote: > Taking this into another domain: > > Breeding of bees. Using the above as a truth, any selection for a > trait, i.e. using a character and enhancing it will therefore have a > cost, when the "new strain" is compared to the original. This would > therefore suggest that a strain of bee exhibiting many of the > required beekeepers aspirations is a pipe dream. Not only that, but > the further we get away from the original model - the worse matters > are going to be. In the case of mites, they are under pressure to select for resistance so when the pressure is gone they will revert to their original, stable state. The key here is the beekeeper. The beekeeper controls the environment so nature is not allowed to take its course. Bees are selected by the beekeeper to enhance a trait. In addition, they are unnaturally propagated through AI or isolated mating areas so the trait is retained. If the bees were allowed to naturally mate and no control was made to perpetuate the trait, they would revert to whatever was necessary to survive in that specific area based on the pressures in that area. (And they might not survive.) But the beekeeper does not allow that by either growing his own or purchasing queens with the desired traits. Even so, as is noted by every living beekeeper, queens from the same source are not uniform, so even then, there is some reversion. But the beekeeper culls them out. (Dog and other animal breeders do this to maintain the breed. If they allowed the dogs to open mate, they would get mutts.) In essence, both cases are the same. The beekeeper selects (by the application of pesticide) for resistant mites. The beekeeper also can select for a certain trait in their bees. If he stops, in both cases, the mites and bees will go back to a stable state, more in keeping with what is naturally in the area. Varroa, unfortunately, is not "naturally" in the area so the bees will not survive. This is the holy grail of beekeeping. A bee that is tolerant of varroa, where both survive. Then you have pressure on both sides and both accommodate and reach a new "stable" state. Think Russian and SMR. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 18:34:03 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Bee Language Comments: To: Laszlo MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Laszlo asked: Say, was Barry Marshall (UVA, Helico Bacter pylori) mentioned? I do not believe he was. Laszlo said: One should not have to spend the better part of their career, lifetime or more changing real scientists minds with proper evidence if those folks were indeed real scientists - or at least acted like they were whether it is Medicine or Apiary Science. I agree but it is not easy to change what has been accepted for years. Laszlo said: Frankly, the more I read of the "dance-language controvery" the more discouraged I become by what seems to have unfolded. I hope it has a happy ending. I received my copy of Adrian's new book yesterday along with a few papers Adrian has written. The book should be for sale before long if not already. I must say I was surprised by the size of the book. 400 pages. In a few weeks when things slow down I will sit down and read the book. I must admit I had trouble putting the book down when the book arrived but I have got other matters to attend to right now like a honey processing area full of supers and bees needing attention before winter. Recommended reading for those which are interested in DL. "Anatomy of a Controversy" by Adrian M. Wenner & Patrick H. Wells The question of "Language" Among Bees advance praise: " This book will become a classic on the structure of science and the relationships among scientists" Stuart Altmann, The University of Chicago 19 other prominent people are on the list which came with the book giving praise. Could Bob Harrison's name be next on the list? Bob Ps. Thanks again Adrian for letting me purchase an advance copy! Bee Culture & the American Bee journal have got excellent articles this month. Hated to put those down also. I hope I never get as busy as my friend H. Bell in Florida. He told me he reads all 12 issues of Bee Culture and ABJ in January as he is too busy the rest of the year. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 19:20:37 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 28 Sep 2003 to 29 Sep 2003 (#2003-268) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Timothy Eisele wrote about goldenrod honey: it is selling very well at $6 for a 10-ounce jar :-) I say, "Good for you Tim!" If it's different, emphasize the difference and make it worth a greater value. MIKE :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 20:54:14 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: ed Subject: Re: Turkish honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Elizabeth Vogt wrote: plant pictured on the label looks like a coniferous plant ! Sounds like honey dew (the sugars expressed by aphids that are sucked up by bees) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 20:55:20 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Marc Studebaker Subject: Re: Funny honey taste MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > > Jerry Hathaway wrote: > > > >> My July extracting of honey was a bit disappointing. The honey had a > >> strange taste to it. Some people thought they immediately detected a > >> ‘minty’ taste to it, This year we have a short crop 1/2 of normal, whatever normal is in beekeeping. Much of the crop is basswood, which is rare in our area. I like the taste. Marc Studebaker Geneva, IN. I would like to thank the moderators of this list for all the time and effort put into making this the best bee discussion group on the internet. So often volunteers are seldom appreciated by the people they serve. I APPRECIATE YOU! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 18:47:28 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Laszlo Subject: Re: Manhattan bees Comments: To: Bill Mares In Virginia at least honeybees are not considered wild animals but are considerd "livestock". I'm told Fairfax, Virginia has one of the "model" laws concerning beekeeping. IBRA has a book about beekeeping laws and the history thereof. It includes Old English law. Do not know the title/author offhand but I'm sure it's easy to find on thier website. I recall seeing another such volume published by someone in the US as well. Hope this helps. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 19:16:02 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Laszlo Subject: Re: fgmo Comments: To: Normand Choinière Normand wrote: (in part) "That question of resistance is one aspect of it. There are more fundamental reasons. The main reason is probably that many people in society want bio products. They no longer want to eat non natural chemicals... " Also, some beekeepers do not want to handle or be exposed to them either! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 21:56:47 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: yoonytoons Subject: Sprachen Sie Deutch? Can someone kindly translate the gist of the following PDF please? http://www.apis.admin.ch/deutsch/pdf/Varroa/OSspruehen_d.pdf (It's about spraying Oxalic Acid mixed with syrup, but I want to verify the dosage and application, just to be sure) Danke. Yoon (Ya, ya. Ich denke; also, bin ich) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::