From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 08:46:43 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-85.9 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,AWL, MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,SARE_FRAUD_X3,SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93EA349044 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:44:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SDdDK3012145 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:44:20 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:44:19 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0411C" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 147919 Lines: 3257 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 21:43:42 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu Comments: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Bee Size vs Cell Size In-Reply-To: <001201c4cab1$e44adc70$3cb85ad1@Nemo> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Allen Dick writes: a natural broodnest does pretty much what the small cell is claimed to do, regardless of the bees chosen. If this is so, then why the disppearance of feral colonies everywhere? Reply: yes, this is true, regardless of the bees chosen. The broodnest is the heart of the hive,but not only for reproduction of our bees. It also functions/works like a living liver. All bees can do this given a chance! Survive with natural sized small cells, while creating more division of labor to address their health. Always have. As for feral disappearance.....we have seen none in our area. But we have seen the growth of pesticide removals with continuous yearly cutting out of colonies in structures and places they say bees should not be and under various names.Plenty of AHBs but no European to be found. Strange it's worked this way. At the same time housing tracts continue to expand into outlying undeveloped areas. I also talk to many beekeepers from all over the USA on the phone, and in no area do I know of zero or no ferals remaining.The beekeepers are ketching fewer, but they still are ketching bees. As for more spraying or cutting out of bees in their areas, professoinally done, this I don't have first hand information to, though could probably assume, though that would be dangerous, some would say. Cannot say I know of the actual disappearance of ferals happening everywhere. It's just how it is said and looked at it seems. Respectfully Submited, Dee A. Lusby Small cell Commercial Beekeeper Tucson, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OrganicBeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 12:29:07 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "D. Murrell" Subject: Re: Bee Size vs Cell Size Hi Allen and Everyone, Allen writes: >What puzzles me is that the above seems -- unless I misunderstand -- to >suggest that a natural broodnest does pretty much what the small cell is >claimed to do, regardless of the bees chosen. >If this is so, then why the disppearance of feral colonies everywhere? I'm don't know much about feral bees. There haven't ever been many feral hives here. But others in areas where feral hives exist have disputed the ferals demise. Many, without checking, have assumed it to be true. But, like Dr. Seeley found when he checked the Arnot Forest, feral populations are flourishing.I suspect that the influx of swarms from domestic hives into the feral population is greatly reduced when compared to the pre-mite days. One curious observation I have seen, when comparing natural comb from different shaped top bar hives, is the effect of the comb height on the amount of small cell comb drawn. The bees drawout less small cell sized comb in a shallower top bar hive than they do in a deeper one. The effects of the tapered comb on cell size get truncated before much small cell comb is drawn. I had hoped that the bees would organize the broodnest differently, but they didn't. See: http://wind.prohosting.com/tbhguy/bee/compa.htm It appears that some cavity sizes and shapes are more optimal for small cell comb construction and survival than others. In the pre-mite days cavity shape and the amount of small cell comb probably wasn't so critical. Many colonies probably would have survived, until queen failure, without any small cell comb, just like bees in our standard equipment did. The bees resistance to mite vectored viruses is also a factor. When I was counting mites, some types of bees were very susceptible to the viruses. A susceptible hive could collapse in just one season under the same mite load that would kill a less susceptible colony in three years. Maybe these are factors in the reduced number of feral hives to almost nothing in some areas as has been reported. Some Thoughts Dennis :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 15:55:24 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: Bee Size vs Cell Size Hi Dennis: Last February Dr. Seeley spoke at the U. of Albany for the Southern Adirondack Beekeeper's Association spring seminar. As I remember he talked about finding a limited number of feral nests in the Arnot Forest. Those nests were being monitored and appeared to be surviving on their own during the time they were being observed. (I forget the actual time frame he mentined). I don't remember him saying feral bees were flourishing there. In fact, as I recall, he cautioned that it was too early to draw any conclusions. There are other Bee-L members who were also there. They might have a better recollection of Dr. Seeley' presentation than I do. Regards, Dick Allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 16:22:02 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Bee Size vs Cell Size MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Dick Allen wrote: > Dr. Seeley spoke at the U. of Albany for the Southern > Adirondack Beekeeper's Association spring seminar ... about > finding a limited number of feral nests in the Arnot Forest. I was there. My recollection was that his initial finding of 3 feral swarms in the first year of he study, grew to 6 the following year. And his study continues. Indeed, Dr. Seeley cautioned about any conclusions to be drawn from his study, since it was a small initial sample size and the duration of the study was definitely short term. He may have had data from a decade or so ago, my recollection is fuzzy, and as an organizer of the event I could not devote full attention to the presentation. >From a statistical point of view one could proclaim that feral swarms have increased 100% over the course of the study. What a comeback! Dr. Seeley did not make such a claim. Rather, he stated that he is guardedly optimistic that feral honey bee populations are rebounding from the onslaught of Varroa and continued monitoring is requisite to draw any firm conclusions. His study was to continue this summer. Incidently, SABA has again scheduled a spring seminar for March 23, 2005 at the University at Albany. Confirmed speakers are Dr. Dewey Caron, Dr. Thomas Seeley and Mr. Dennis VanEngelsdorp. Perhaps Dr. Seeley will update us on feral swarms in the Arnot Forest. Aaron Morris - Thinking, Mark your Calendars! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 13:02:37 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Bee Size vs Cell Size MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Allen & All, > What puzzles me is that the above seems -- unless I misunderstand -- to > suggest that a natural broodnest does pretty much what the small cell is > claimed to do, regardless of the bees chosen. > > If this is so, then why the disppearance of feral colonies everywhere? > Feral colonies have not disappeared everywhere, there are reports and evidence of feral colonies surviving. Those that are surviving are on combs that have cells within the natural size in measurements. The bees normally are dark in color. Feral survivor bees have been reported in Pennsylvania, Georgia, Alabama, Missouri, California, Oregon, Washington, and I am sure there are other areas I have not heard from. The fact is there are true surviving feral honey bees alive and well and in the cases where beekeepers are keeping them without treats they out perform there counterparts of other descent. . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska USA, http://www.cer.org/, c(((([ , Apiarian, http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney/, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 18:58:20 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "D. Murrell" Subject: Re: Bee Size vs Cell Size Hi Allen and Everyone, Tom Seeley also published the info in a Bee Culture article last year. Off the top of my head, he recently found about 9 feral hives in the same area he had located about 13 ferals in the 1970's. And he still had to survey a significant portion of that area to complete the comparison. I haven't seen figures for the final tally. Regards Dennis :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 17:12:33 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Bee Size vs Cell Size MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> What puzzles me is that the above seems -- unless I misunderstand -- >> to suggest that a natural broodnest does pretty much what the small >> cell is claimed to do, regardless of the bees chosen. >> >> If this is so, then why the disppearance of feral colonies >> everywhere? > > Feral colonies have not disappeared everywhere, there are reports and > evidence of feral colonies surviving. Those that are surviving are on > combs that have cells within the natural size in measurements. ...As, I would assume, were those many ferals which died, unless we are suddenly using a special definition of the word, "natural"? I seem to recall that there are quite a number of studies which have shown a huge reduction in feral colonies in the regions where they were done. I am unaware of any studies which indicated that there were not drastic reductions in any region. I have heard, however, that there are, lately, credible reports of feral numbers rebounding a bit in some places, although, there is also some fairly reasonable-sounding speculation that these ferals are simply escaped domestic hives that have not yet succumbed now that there is no longer a reservoir of mites in the wild to take them down immediately... unless they are Weaver bees that escaped , or maybe some of Dee's? It seems that there should be a selection towards tolerance, but is this it? The ferals are sharing the genetics of nearby domestic hives. Interesting. allen A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 21:57:45 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lionel Subject: Re: Bee Size vs Cell Size MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, As I read all the discussion about small cell size, I can't help but wonder what size cells are after a few years in the brood frames if wax is not changed? Does the cell not get smaller each time a bee hatches? Why change the comb out for foundation? Why buy small cell size since it will be small in a short time anyway? How many cycles does it take to be at the 4.9 size? What happens to the 4.9 size after a few cycles of brood? Lionel, Just wondering................. ------------------------------------------------- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by PCLNET, and is believed to be clean. Visit www.pclnet.net and get a 3Mbps cable modem! ------------------------------------------------- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 22:57:36 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Eric Brown Subject: broodless period for varroa control MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I’m looking for veteran advice on a prospective plan for varroa control next year. Can you all offer any feedback? Here’s the plan: as soon as possible after the sourwood flow ends (the last major flow of the season ending about mid-July) I trap each queen somehow to keep her from laying new eggs. 16 days after trapping the queen I use some sort of form board/vertical queen excluder to limit her to just one frame of drone brood. Nine days later that frame of drones should be getting capped and there shouldn’t be any other capped brood in the hive, so I’m speculating an extremely high percentage of varroa should enter that drone brood. In the meantime, say day 18, I could release the queen at large or kill the old queen and complete my yearly requeening. I will have lost 16-18 days of brood rearing, but hives are reluctant to raise much brood during the summer dearth anyway, and there’s still plenty of warm weather afterward to raise up a young population for overwintering. If I then eliminate that drone brood will I actually get an outstanding varroa kill? Is there a way I can do this without inciting swarming? For my scale the labor seems manageable. But what other challenges would this method present? What varroa control can be expected from a broodless period even without drone brood trapping? Thanks in advance for your advice and warnings. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 22:55:44 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Eric Brown Subject: overwintering queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Quick story and then some questions: I tried to make some increases in July/August (in the foothills of western North Carolina), but there wasn’t ever enough of a nectar flow for my splits to build up much strength. I probably should have learned how to overwinter nucs, but instead I combined my smaller hives. That left me with some excellent queens, freshly raised, that just never had a chance to perform. So I fashioned a half dozen form boards, and shook a handful of loyal bees with each surplus queen onto one frame each. Then I put the whole shebang over a queen excluder and let the workers all mix. I was afraid the bees would cluster and leave half the queens to freeze to death, so I put them over a screened bottom board, closed up the entrance, and brought them in the house. That’s where I’m at now, two days later. My long-term interest is in raising my own queens in the fall, then overwintering them with a minimal cost of equipment, bees, and honey,and then having queens to make splits in the early spring. Can I overwinter multiple queen hives as long as I keep them warm enough that they don’t cluster (and presumably leave queens behind to freeze)? I’m planning to leave them in a heated space but give them access to the outdoors. Is one full-length frame plenty of space for a queen during the winter months? How will bees overwinter at 50-65 degrees F? What would I serve to gain by, alternately, overwintering nucs or mininucs outside? Essentially I’m talking about banking queens over winter, except instead of being in cages they’d be on comb. Will that make any difference? Perhaps in terms of how they’re cared for? I saw in the archives mention of Brother Adam overwintering queens. Could anyone tell me about Brother Adam's methods? :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 21:51:52 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu Comments: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Bee Size vs Cell Size In-Reply-To: <000401c4cb90$6e03abc0$67dad618@D98T9541> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Lionel asked some good questions. We have been with our bees a long time thru 2 regressions down, watching and following our bees' needs. Then making corrective changes to accommodate them for commercial purposes. Beeswax foundation does not thicken with cell walls as fast as some suppose/think. And many old combs I/we have looked at in melting down our operation in past years (80s/90s and still melting by the way) went all the way back to grandpa's time of beekeeping thru WWI and WWII. Small and thickened indeed they did look, but then knowing the various different names of the foundation styles helped, along with manufacturer sizes then to figure out how small they were when bought and then prior to melting. The most on average you could/might/may go down is about .1mm and that will take several years and there is really no time left for that. You will not see .2mm down with thickened walls, for long before then the bees stop the process. It is easier to find thickened cell bottoms and thicker bases, which has no bearing on the problem at hand for reduced reproduction (though it might on # wax produced or contamination # absorbed). Yes, the cell size gets smaller with each generation of reproduction to a point, as bees shellac and resterilize brood cells for the queen to lay into.But only to a point and then the cocoons and shellacing are cleaned out periodically at broodnest cleansing times in early spring and late fall going into winter. Here you will find, or at least we did, as we fine tuned more, the smaller more natural we went, the more the bees have cleaned and primed the broodnest area, with heavy cleaning periodically twice a year. Was it because they knew they didn't have to thicken the walls so much for control of problems of imbalance, or because they had more division of labor to allow them to do things right? Or not enough division of labor to keep them thinned properly? Comb is needed to be changed out now because wax absorbs the various treatments used in the broodnest, and only after it can no longer absorb all it can, does it leach then into the honey. During extracting, the bits of wax that are contaminated can be filtered out and many packers and producers do this, but it is not like honey of old with minute particles of beeswax and proplis and pollen still contained. Propolis by the way, has a higher infinity for contimination then the wax; and pollen from sprayed crops or in contact with bees in contact with strips inserted is IMO not good too. Comb just needs to be changed, now, as after 3-5 years most cannot hold any more accumulation of contaminates from all the various treatments in use today. Foundation that is small cell, will remain small cell and the bees for the most part will keep the cells walls thinner and cleaned more then the bigger ones they will try to size down. I could go into this, but not now. But it can be read more in old writings of EB Wedmore of the UK how the bees keep the cell walls thinned down and the measurements even taken back then. After a few cycles of 4.9mm brood, assuming it is drawnout to 4.9mm sizing and not 5.0mm or even 4.8mm range. it will still pretty much be the same as drawnout originally. As for how many cycles does it take to be at the 4.9mm size, well, if that referres to sizing down, then that can take years in actuality for it took over 100 years now to size our bees up thru several upsizings in pursuit of a bigger better honeybee.But in reality are we better off for it, and more importantly did we ever achieve it, all things being considered? Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Tucson, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OrganicBeekeepers/ "If the bee disappeared off the surface of the globe, then man would only have four years of life left." – a quotation attributed to Albert Einstein __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 23:23:10 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Hives crashing (was Small Hive Beetle) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, I have been out of state. From: "Bob Harrison" " A super mite has been running around California which seems unaffected by every method of control tossed at it." To save a rapid rise in beekeeper suicides :), could Bob clarify he meant CHEMICAL controls. All I can say is all legal methods in U.S. have been tried with only a measure of control. I have also been *told* about illegal methods which have failed with varroa resistant to both apistan & checkmite. Beekeepers never fail to amaze me. Hard to believe Allen has heard stories of beekeepers using 10 times the dose of Apistan to try and get control. Let me say to all those reading on the list that increasing the dosage will not work (and is illegal & contaminates brood comb) once the varroa become resistant to either fluvalinate or coumaphos. If you think I do not know what I am talking about and the fellow beekeeper which said "all you need to do is increase the dosage for those chemicals to work" does please contact the Beltsville Bee lab to hear the same message as I said above! Robin said: The general belkied has been that mites will develop resistance to orgamic acids only very slowly, if ever. Soft controls have got limitations. Why commercial beekeepers are slow to embrace soft varroa controls. Control in U.S. tests generally falls around 70% for formic and thymol (ABJ 2004). Control can certainly be higher and can certainly be lower when weather problems and application problems happen. I have been very satisfied with Api Life Var but I like the varroa tolerant bees which do not need varroa treatment best! Many beekeepers are sitting by their fireplace in the north thinking all is well in their hives. Not until spring thaw will the real problem raise its ugly head! Only those beekeepers which went back and tested towards of the end of the treatment period this fall and found the first treatment failed are aware of the problem. Most I have talked to simply installed the other strip and hoped for the best as winter set in. The current problem as described by Lyle Johnston can only be blamed on beekeepers. Varroa wins again! Beekeepers caught unprepared for varroa resistance to chemical strips when they knew resistance was coming! Beekeeping history keeps repeating itself and will until we learn from our mistakes! Robin said: I just hope that is still true. IMHO we desperately need acids to bridge the time gap Formic is temperature dependant. In many areas cold weather had set in before the beekeeper discovered their first attempt at control had failed. ALSO when the first application was done hives were approaching threshold. Add another four weeks of a failed control and hives with a lethal load of varroa & in most cases advanced PMS. Formic & thymol will not work as they provide slower over a period of time control unlike effective chemical strips which will clear a hive of varroa in a hurry WHEN varroa is not resistant to the strip. Both formic acid & thymol work best when temperatures are ideal and varroa is not at high levels. Robin said: until varroa-tolerant bees have been bred in every area. I tossed out the small cell advice using the carefully chosen word in my post *perhaps* to see the response. Interesting responses! Varroa tolerant bees are a reality but in *short supply*. I have not a clue if the Weavers bees are varroa tolerant but I hope they are! His goals and mine are moving in the same direction so I wish the Weavers the best . *If* the Weavers bees do not prove to be varroa tolerant then beekeepers will not only not trust the Weavers but the rest of us saying we are indeed seeing varroa tolerant bees. I have accepted the fact brood comb needs to be replaced for hive well being. Many beekeepers are not ready to yet! I also see varroa tolerant bees to be easier & cheaper than downsizing to small cell. I see rotating brood comb as a big expense but see no other alternative. To sum things up we are seeing all the things Dennis M. sees with his small cell bees by using chemical free comb & varroa tolerant bees. Those beekeepers working with survivor queens see absolutely zero benefit in small cell. We are trying to apply varroa pressure not give the bees a crutch! We want a survivor bee which will tolerate varroa in all settings including large cell comb. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 09:33:38 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: overwintering queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Eric > I saw in the archives mention of Brother Adam overwintering queens. > Could anyone tell me about Brother Adam's methods? Bro. Adam used special boxes that contained 4 nucs. Each nuc was five half width dadant sized frames. The nucs kept each other warm. The method involves requeening full sized stocks in early spring, the queens from these are placed back in the nucs to maintain egg laying and brood production. (Any notable ones are then available for grafting.) It works well, I used an identical method, (copied from him) but using nucs that contained half width BS frames. http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman/halfwframe.html I stopped using the method about twenty years ago, in favour of overwintering in 5 frame nucs set in pairs. My reason for the change was that I wanted to get a better idea of brood laying capacity of the new queens in their first spring. Regards & Best 73s... Dave Cushman G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Temporary Conditions... Using 'PATCHY' VPN pass-through server 3rd build :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 08:59:35 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Bee Size vs Cell Size MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Dennis & all It is refreshing to see some work being done in this direction... > I had hoped that the bees would organize the broodnest > differently, but they didn't. See: > > http://wind.prohosting.com/tbhguy/bee/compa.htm > > It appears that some cavity sizes and shapes are more optimal > for small cell comb construction and survival than others. I like the logic that Dennis has used in interpretation of the results, but I fear that the 'sample size' is not large enough to validate the results or conclusions, so how about a few more of you 'having a go' at some similar work ? Apart from anything else it is likely to be good fun ! Regards & Best 73s... Dave Cushman G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Temporary Conditions... Using 'PATCHY' VPN pass-through server 3rd build :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 00:07:09 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: Hives crashing (was Small Hive Beetle) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Bob & All, > Those > beekeepers working with survivor queens see absolutely zero benefit in small > cell. > Dr. Y. S. Kim (Yoon) was using feral survivors on large cell combs and failed but refused to use the same type feral survivors on small cell combs. If he had his results may have been different. Joe Waggle in Pennsylvania is using feral bees in his area with greater success on small cells than other strains on small cells without treatments. I can name other beekeepers doing good with feral bees on small cell combs as well. Just because you say "Those > beekeepers working with survivor queens see absolutely zero benefit in small > cell." does not mean that those beekeepers even tried small cell combs. What exactly do you mean by what you said here? . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska USA, http://www.cer.org/, c(((([ , Apiarian, http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney/, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 06:00:59 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Hives crashing (was Small Hive Beetle) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Soft controls have got limitations. Why commercial beekeepers are > slow to embrace soft varroa controls. Control in U.S. tests generally > falls around 70% for formic and thymol (ABJ 2004). Control can > certainly be higher and can certainly be lower when weather problems > and application problems happen. Formic and oxalic in syrup have problems handling infestations much over 5%, unless there is no brood present. Period. That's the way it is. Nonetheless, most beekeepers STILL do not monitor their mite problems, and are expecting these treatments to work miracles on the heavy infestations that catch them by surprise. They will not. Also, formic and oxalic drizzle work best when no brood is present, and in some regions, that is a much shorter window, with a much longer period of mite reproduction in between, than the northern regions where these chemicals are working well. Nonetheless, we have had a long time to learn about mites and the various possibilities of managing them, but many, if not most beekeepers have left the job to others. We have had fluvalinate and coumaphos as an emergency backup, and _should_ have been using alternate controls and monitoring as a frontline ,but regulators recommended using them as a first line of defense, and now we are finding they are not working in emergencies. (I have chronicled our minimal chemical regime on my diary. Most of our overwintered hives had lower levels of varroa, 18 months after treatment with a single Apistan(r) strip, than Australian packages established this Spring!) Oxalic evaporation shows promise, since it works over a longer time period and can, reportedly, be repeated without harm to the bees, but, in southern regions, we do not know if it will do the job. Who knows? Apparently no one has tried. Officially, at least. > Formic is temperature dependant. In many areas cold weather had set in > before the beekeeper discovered their first attempt at control had > failed. Actually, formic can work in cool weather, as long as there are some warm days, which we see up here well into October. > ALSO when the first application was done hives were approaching > threshold. Add another four weeks of a failed control and hives > with a lethal load of varroa & in most cases advanced PMS. Formic & > thymol will not work as they provide slower over a period of time > control unlike effective chemical strips which > will clear a hive of varroa in a hurry WHEN varroa is not resistant > to the strip. That's the problem. People get used to miracles and don't monitor. > Both formic acid & thymol work best when temperatures are ideal and > varroa is not at high levels. Exactly > Varroa tolerant bees are a reality but in *short supply*. I have not > a clue if the Weavers bees are varroa tolerant but I hope they are! > His goals and mine are moving in the same direction so I wish the > Weavers the best . *If* the Weavers bees do not prove to be varroa > tolerant then beekeepers will not only not trust the Weavers but the > rest of us saying we are indeed seeing varroa tolerant bees. The problem is that your varroa resistant bees may not do well in my area, nor mine in yours. Moreover, since the tolerance depends on a rather fine balance of multple factors, the tolerance demonstrated in one region may not be apparent in another. That may even be true from one operation to another in the same region, since management methods and hive environment can vary dramatically. > We want a survivor bee which will tolerate varroa in all settings > including large cell comb. That's the problem. We get lots of anecdotes about sucess in special cases and with intensive, idiosyncratic management, however the mammoth commercial bee/pollination industry in North America needs/wants an all-purpose bee (or bees) that can be parachuted into existing operations, in all regions, without a huge disruption, without discarding all the existing equipment, and without complex management requirements. (At this point, however, maybe all the existing eqipment has to go anyhow, since the beekeepers have themselves polluted it to the point where it is toxic to bees). At any rate, people are again expecting a miracle - that tolerant bees will allow them to continue to ignore advice to monitor and manage. I predict that no matter how good the tolerant bees turn out to be, that we will still have regular reports of people being wiped out. How long have we had AFB and simple mangement methods to control and suppress it? We still hear of people who let it get to the point where they have 50-100% outbreaks. Monitor, monitor, monitor. allen A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 13:25:41 -0000 Reply-To: Phil Moore Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Phil Moore Subject: Re: Bee Size vs Cell Size MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Keith says: The fact is there are true surviving feral honey bees alive > and well and in the cases where beekeepers are keeping them without treats > they > out perform there counterparts of other descent. That is a significant statement, what are the specific instances? What numbers of colonies are involved? It seems to me that this type of statement is meaningless unless it is backed up with evidence. Regards Phil Moore :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 07:43:46 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Hives crashing (was Small Hive Beetle) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob said; > Those beekeepers working with survivor queens see absolutely zero benefit in small cell. The first time you hear the above you wonder why. The way the varroa tolerant bee (6 way closed population system) we are using came about was not by current accepted methods (which like Yoon failed for many ) but by using varroa pressure to cull survivors. The final test of a varroa tolerant bee involves varroa pressure. Danny Weaver tried to explain his varroa pressure method. Varroa pressure is the only way I and others know of to speed up the selection process. Using small cell *might* have been a shortcut but would we have ended up with a truly varroa tolerant bee for all situations or only a varroa tolerant bee which was so as long as downsized on 4.9mm cell size? Keith said: Dr. Y. S. Kim (Yoon) was using feral survivors on large cell combs and failed but refused to use the same type feral survivors on small cell combs. If he had his results may have been different. In my opinion he declined to try his feral survivors on small cell for the reasons I gave. I might have considered adding the small cell step a few years ago ( when results were poor) but we have found success without using the small cell downsize to 4.9 step. The method involved the use of a six way closed instrumental insemination breeding program over a period of six plus years . Breeder queens from feral survivors and expensive breeder queens from the bee lab. Many breeder queens could not handle the varroa pressure and died. At least production 50 queens at a time were ordered and tested from most of the queen producers around today. These queens were left untreated with varroa pressure added. In some cases all of these hives died. In others maybe only one hive survived so the queen was given further testing and may have eventually made the way into the closed breeding survivor program. The beekeeper in charge of the program at times wondered if the project would be a success. Money was tight and pots of bean soup were made. A beekeeping family owns rights to the above bee and a patent has been taken on the process. The Russian bee is still around and big improvements are being made. Our group believs they have got all the Russian genetics released from the bee lab. I believe I have got all the genetics released from the program out back in my Russian instrumental insemination breeder queens and in my Russian yards. The Russian bee takes a commitment as introduction is most times difficult and management needs modification from the norm. Also pure Russian/Russian production queens are as rare as an exotic animal . Hybrids are common. I will continue to work with the Russians as they are certainly a challenge even for me but but my friends wonder why I do not simply switch to the closed system bee and forget the Russians. I think the many discussions I had with Dr. Siminuki and his belief in the success of the Russian project has made me want to prove "Shim" was right. Will the Russian bee go the route of the "Yugo" bee? To be honest in my opinion the Russian bee equals the six way closed breeding queens in the varroa department due to the natural selection process the Russian bee came from (100 plus years?) which is the best way to come up with a varroa tolerant bee. However the six way system bee trumps the Russian bee in most other ways due to the careful selection process over the last six years of traits which are important to beekeepers. If small cell works for you and all the others I am very happy. My opinion is I am afraid small cell will always be considered a passing fad and beekeeping books 40-50 years from now will reflect same. The focus now by myself and others will be to install varroa tolerant bees in all hives. I hope to finnish the process this spring. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 09:12:14 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Hives crashing (was Small Hive Beetle) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen pointed out: The problem is that your varroa resistant bees may not do well in my area, nor mine in yours. Excellent point and one we have pondered over. After endless discussions & phone calls the bottom line remains. Produce the best varroa tolerant bee you can and see what happens. Thousands of the varroa tollerant queens have been tested in the south but little in other parts of the U.S. (and none yet around the world). I can say they six way closed system queens work exactly in Missouri as they performed in the south east so we have got a small gold star. Lets keep a good thought! Allen said: Moreover, since the tolerance depends on a rather fine balance of multple factors, the tolerance demonstrated in one region may not be apparent in another. That may even be true from one operation to another in the same region, since management methods and hive environment can vary dramatically. We are ready to see if the program has been a total success. The queens and daughters will be our proof! Hype goes only so far. We are still working on the breeding program and hope to get genetics from the Seeley program in the future. fine tuning will continue. I have spent about all the time I can allow on BEE-L today. Will try to post later. Bob Ps. Eric B. I will respond as soon as possible to your questions! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 06:52:49 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: Bee Size vs Cell Size MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Lionel & All, I feel only one of your questions is important and relevant. > Why buy small cell size since it will be small > in a short time anyway? Because of the number of cells per square inch there is on small cell foundation. Even if the cells do get smaller on larger cell foundation the number of cells per square inch on larger cell foundation will remain the same. I see Dee Lusby has explained a bit on the dynamics of large cell foundation verses small cell foundation. . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska USA, http://www.cer.org/, c(((([ , Apiarian, http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney/, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 09:14:30 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Hives crashing (was Small Hive Beetle) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit allen dick wrote: > (I have chronicled our minimal chemical regime on my diary. Most of > our overwintered hives had lower levels of varroa, 18 months after > treatment with a single Apistan(r) strip, than Australian packages > established this Spring!) I should correct myself. I did the math after posting and, they are actually the same, at a 0.5% average, if we throw out the one outlier at 6.28%, or about double at a 1.1% average, if we leave it in. Of course the hives that died last winter and those that were sold out of the lot last Spring are not considered. They are gone. We are just looking at the ones that are here. Such is the difficulty in trying to make sense of things, but that is a different topic: How many neat scientific study summaries fail to mention the hives that fell by the wayside and anomalies discovered (and swept under the carpet?) on the way to that conclusion? allen A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 16:27:35 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "James W. Hock" Subject: Re: Bee Size vs Cell Size MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/15/2004 8:02:39 AM Eastern Standard Time, deelusbybeekeeper@YAHOO.COM writes: As for feral disappearance.....we have seen none in our area. I'm an Exterminator, working central Connecticut. Ten years ago I might get a dozen or more calls for feral colonies in walls, this year I had one. The feral population around here is all but wiped out. Added to the fact that there are fewer people keeping bees, the impact has been dramatic. My deciding factor to keep bees came when my garden went bust and my apples became deformed. As a side thought, this was a rough year for pest control. Our staples in Carpenter ants and yellowjacket are also greatly reduced. One would think that would fewer honey bees, the yellowjacket and hornet population would increase. Jim Hock Wethersfield, CT :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 16:36:36 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: overwintering queens In-Reply-To: <200411160355.iAG1j8a2011118@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-4CBAFE; boundary="=======1BAA272A=======" --=======1BAA272A======= Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-4CBAFE; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > >That left me with some excellent queens, freshly raised, that just never >had a chance to perform. Eric Were the queens mated out of a mating nuc? The reason I ask, is that you could winter the entire mating nuc, where the bees have a chance to set up their nest. Or, you could make nucs as in the work I sent you in September. Or, you could further subdivide the box, and have 4 mini-nucs. In the spring, you can harvest 6 queens in two 4 ways, unite the 4 ways, and have two queens re-filling the mini-nucs with brood. These can be split later, when it comes time to raise cells. Mike --=======1BAA272A=======-- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 18:04:09 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lionel Subject: Re: Bee Size vs Cell Size MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Keith and all, You are right about the number of cells per square inch. Just suppose for a minute, that you made a dot only 0.030 of an inch in diameter in the center of each cell in the square inch. Is the number of dots and cells the same? I am saying the cell ID gets smaller. Not the number per square inch. I know the numbers will stay the same. Lionel 0.30 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 17:11:06 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu Comments: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys From: josh jaros Subject: Re: Bee Size vs Cell Size In-Reply-To: <000601c4cc38$f6ab41b0$67dad618@D98T9541> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi all, I've noticed that very old combs with small cells on them have very high numbers of mites and DWV. Just an observation. Josh Jaros --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Discover all that’s new in My Yahoo! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 17:20:42 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tom Elliott Subject: Re: Bee Size vs Cell Size In-Reply-To: <000601c4cc38$f6ab41b0$67dad618@D98T9541> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Lionel, > You are right about the number of cells per square inch. > Just suppose for a minute, that you made a dot only > 0.030 of an inch in diameter in the center of each cell in > the square inch. Is the number of dots and cells the same? > I am saying the cell ID gets smaller. Not the number per > square inch. I know the numbers will stay the same. The fact is that periodically honeybees will clean or rebuild cell walls to maintain an acceptable size. Combs that are many years old do not show the same sort of results that small cell beekeepers are reporting. Tom Elliott Chugiak, AK :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 19:25:08 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: SABA Seminar 2005 (Was: Bee Size vs Cell Size) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Aaron Morris wrote: > SABA has again scheduled a spring seminar for March 23, 2005 at > the University at Albany. Confirmed speakers are Dr. Dewey Caron, > Dr. Thomas Seeley and Mr. Dennis VanEngelsdorp. The date I posted was a fat finger typo! The 23 should have been a 12. If you marked your calendars, I hope you did so in pencil! The correct date for the SABA 2005 Seminar is March 12, 2005. The line up of speakers is correct as posted. Again, please note that the correct date for the SABA 2005 Seminar is March 12, 2005. I hope to see many of my BEE-L friends that weekend! Sincerely, Aaron Morris :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 22:00:16 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: broodless period for varroa control MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Can you all offer any feedback? What you plan on doing was done in the early days of varroa control. >I trap each queen somehow to keep her from laying new eggs. 16 days after trapping the queen I use some sort of form board/vertical queen excluder to limit her to just one frame of drone brood. caged queen method developed in Germany (Maul 1983). Drone brood was not used but might work but not needed for method to work. See below. >Nine days later that frame of drones should be getting capped and there shouldn't be any other capped brood in the hive, so I'm speculating an extremely high percentage of varroa should enter that drone brood. *trap comb method* (netherlands in early 80's I believe). The idea is to get to the point the only brood in the hive is under screen marked for removal (called trap comb). >If I then eliminate that drone brood will I actually get an outstanding varroa kill? You will get a kill but exactly how outstanding remains to be seen. The caged queen trap comb method described in bee literature involves frames of worker brood and not drone brood. I have never used the methods so can only give a few thoughts. trying to get the confined queen to lay drones at a time when drones are not needed by the hive might be problematic . Perhaps why two frames of worker brood is suggested in the literature. Actually being the only available brood in the hive I doubt the varroa will be picky. > Is there a way I can do this without inciting swarming? I can't see swarming being a problem (or would have been a described problem in the literature). >For my scale the labor seems manageable. No doubt labor intensive as a varroa control but others have felt worth the effort. >But what other challenges would this method present? None that we have not discussed in my opinion but maybe a beekeeper which has used the caged queen trap drone method will comment and possibly add their variation. Beekeepers always modify most systems to meet their own needs. To advance your thoughts to the most common trap comb method is as follows: 1. the queen is caged on empty comb with excluder screens and moved to another comb at certain intervals. 2. after 10 days the brood outside the screened cage is sealled completely so the varroa can reproduce only in the trap comb. 3.if the trap combs are removed at 7 day intervals then the majority of varroa could possibly be removed after the removal of four trap combs in a months time period. Good luck with your project! If you test before and after you should be able to figure the effiacy of the method. >What varroa control can be expected from a broodless period even without drone brood trapping? A broodless period always slows varroa growth as the varroa are forced onto adult bees to survive and their reproduction is stopped. Bob Ps. I have tried to explain as simply as possible. If you still have questions please ask. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 13:42:05 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Bee Size vs Cell Size Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain >>One would think that would fewer honey bees, the yellowjacket and hornet population would increase. I see yellow jackets picking up dead or dysfunctional honey bees and larvae discarded in front of my hives on a regular basis. Especially, in the second half of the summer when yellow jacket colonies are strongest. This tells me that apiaries and feral colonies supply yellow jackets with substantial amounts of food for their larvae. I have always seen numerous yellow jacket colonies where honey bees are kept. It's not a plague by no means. Waldemar LI, NY :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 13:53:41 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Bee Size vs Cell Size Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain >>I've noticed that very old combs with small cells on them have very high numbers of mites and DWV. Just an observation. There's a very interesting piece in Research Reviewed in the current issue of Bee Culture on this. Researchers have been able to take some extracts from old combs to demonstrate that they are highly attractive to varroa. (If I recall correctly the article said 3x as many varroa were found in old comb vs. new comb.) This may one day be used to develop methods to bait and trap varroa. Many have said here that comb rotation helps the varroa situation. It turns out that not only does it remove chemicals with the wax but also varroa attractants. Very interesting creature this varroa... Waldemar LI, NY PS. I have read, though not necessarily seen it in my hives, that queens also prefer to lay in the old comb. They may hone in on the same attractants as varroa. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 08:11:22 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu Comments: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Bee Size vs Cell Size In-Reply-To: <20041117.055417.6458.17464@webmail22.nyc.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Lionel and Waldemar >>I've noticed that very old combs with small cells on them have very high numbers of mites and DWV. Just an observation. Reply: Yes, it is very good for luring the mites to for broodnest cleansing periods, so that the mites can be cleaned out. Have seen whole sheets of worker comb in the beginning cleaned up this way as beekeepers hives all around us collasped. Amazing how the broodnest with proper sized comb acts like a living liver cleaning up disease and parasisitc mite problems with the help of the workers at this period of time each year. After all, why change out old good combs if they are working properly and CLEAN, never having seen treatments! I found the research paper interesting. Question: For now if a lure can be made to smell like old brood combs so the mites can key into them more for an attractant, then does that mean that the phoretic stage will be lured more into the worker cells again, and not dispursed more throughout the colony. I know that small cell can already handle the problem with chewing out of varroa, but can the larger cells that allows for reproduction? Sounds like more internal imbalance somehow. Then with the mites lured back there................. What is the next step for large cell beekeepers? Trapping them somehow? Some new type of bait setup/trap to purchase to add to the arsenal? Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Tucson, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OrganicBeekeepers/ __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free! http://my.yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 11:56:24 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Griggs Subject: The Hive and the Honey Bee Collection Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed The Tampa Bay Beekeepers Association is generously supporting efforts to digitize more early American beekeeping books by matching $1000 of beekeeper donations. This offer will terminate at the end of December 2004. We have not yet matched the full amount. Donations are to a tax exempt institution, books in fragile condition will be preserved and all books digitized will be available on-line to anyone with a computer & internet access. For more information: http://bees.library.cornell.edu/ http://easternapiculture.org/programs/ http://www.masterbeekeeper.org/resources.htm (look to the bottom of this page) or drop me an e-mail. It would be great to get another 15 books mounted for the beekeeping community! Mike Griggs Entomologist/ Support Scientist Plant Protection Research Unit USDA ARS, U.S. Plant, Soil & Nutrition Lab. Tower Road, Ithaca, NY 14853 http://www.ppru.cornell.edu/PPRU.htm phone: 607-255-1085 fax: 607-255-1132 email: mhg3@cornell.edu :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 17:33:13 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Bee Size vs Cell Size Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Dee wrote: >>I know that small cell can already handle the problem with chewing out of varroa, but can the larger cells that allows for reproduction? Sounds like more internal imbalance somehow. Then with the mites lured back there................. What is the next step for large cell beekeepers? Trapping them somehow? Some new type of bait setup/trap to purchase to add to the arsenal? The attracting extracts could be used in drone comb to make drone comb varroa trapping even more effective. I don't think the attractants are strong enough to lead the varroa hordes blindly down through the screened bottom board into a sticky death trap... :) I like the fact that your colonies survive varroa w/o additional treatments on the 4.9 mm cell foundation. I don't know why researchers don't idependently demostrate your methods with other strains of bees. Especially, the gentle Carniolans that are optimum for northern suburbs. And I wish the 4.9 mm foundation was available in food grade plastic... I found very, very interesting what was reported here a few days ago that the cells built by any bees naturally [w/o foundation] were progressively smaller in size as one measured from the top of comb down. This tells me that both 5.2 mm and 4.9 mm cells are artificial averages. Ideally, the best foundation should simulate bees' natural comb pattern where there would be a progression in size. Just a few thoughts. Waldemar LI, NY :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 14:16:02 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: Bee Size vs Cell Size MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 17/11/04 18:42:50 GMT Standard Time, waldig@NETZERO.COM writes: <> I believe it is. Try Dadant. I certainly had some samples for testing, which have been very satisfactory. The odd thing was, the bees I was downsizing at the time drew it out better than they did 4.9 wax. From what I remember, the plastic was food grade. Regards, Robert Brenchley :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 14:20:20 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot Mc Pherson Organization: Linux From Scratch Subject: The Week's Overview in discussion Comments: To: ApiarianBreedersGuild@yahoogroups.com, Backyard_Beekeeping@yahoogroups.com, BiologicalBeekeeping@yahoogroups.com, FloridaBeekeepers@yahoogroups.com, Norlandbeekeepers@yahoogroups.com, Organicbeekeepers@yahoogroups.com, TopHive@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I appologize for the intense cross posting, but if the moderators (where present) will permit me to do so I would appreciate it as these discussions are being reproduced and forked on almost all of these lists and need to be glued together again. The few lists that haven't been part of the crossed and broken discussion thus far I have included because the topics do concern them directly according to the individual lists' purposes, charter, and membership. To Dennis (aka topbarguy, aka {US}BeeWrangler) and the related discussion participants, I have been reading your posts with interest. As you know, I am also a top bar hive beekeeper. What you may not know is that my operation has expanded to exlusively 33 top bar hives this year. My first 4 hives coming from package installations and the rest entirely from swarm/feral removal/capture. I agree with that you have been experiencing with your hive as far as brood nest structure is concerned. There are two things I believe you (with good reason) misunderstand though. As to brood nest structure and the tapering of cell sizing within the brood nest. You have noticed that the bees build a core which they then build around. What I believe you misunderstand is that this is a nest structure built purposely to this general specification. It is not. The resulting nest structure you have been observing is a function of time. When you install bees into an empty TBH (or even foundationless frame lang) the bees will build as quickly as they can a functioning brood nest. This is their focus until the bees perceive they have enough of a nest to work with. You have also observed that the bees do not build once complete comb before moving on to the next, they build or work-on several combs at once. A fresh installation of bees will begin working on as many combs as their cluster (which is most often some roundish shape) can cover at once. I have seen clusters as small as only being able to build just 3 small combs for an initial brood nest, and clusters as large as able to start working on 10 bars at once. If the generally roundish cluster covers 6 empty top bars, then they will begin working on 6 bars almost immediately, or within just a couple of days (literally within 1, 2 or 3 days). The resulting nest ends up being slightly larger than the inital mass of bees, because the comb itself takes up some space, and so the cluster itself increases in size (not number), due to this use of space. Once the bees have finished building comb that they can cover completely, they stop building the core brood nest. Once this initial setting up has been accomplished, the bees begin working on other tasks. They cannot continue working on brood nest structure, because there are not enough bees to cover the combs. The bees begin to task bringing in pollen and bringing in nectar. These products are initially stored at the outside of the brood nest since the initial nest is layed up all the way to the top row of the nest. The initial cells used for what I call interim storage hovers somewhere in the vicinity of 1 inch in thickness measuring the distance from the broodnest across a comb, not the thickness of the comb. This is almost universally the amount of storage the bees can produce while supporting the first brood cycle. Almost as soon as the first bees emerge, which understandably enough happens to be at the top of the nest, these initial cells are immediately reassigned to storage, and the bees begin working more towards the back of the hive, building storage cells which are visibly giant sized honey storage cells. The brood combs as they continue to be slowly built upon, are built during various phases of the colony's seasonal development. Since the bees dont simply build down to the bottom of the hive one comb at a time and since they build them gradually now as population increases, the uniformity of the cells lessens. The bees are building brood comb while they have other things on their mind. These cells simply aren't being built with the brood buildup mindset of the bees. They are used to increase worker force as needed or used for storage as needed, and the cells are built, slightly adjusted by and, according to their current needs. What you are experiencing dennis is the same thing you will expereince if you repeat your experiments 10, 100 or 1,000,000 times. You are seeing the bees build a fresh colony. It will repeat itself indefinity because the often forgotten dimension in colony development is "Time Management". It is because of the length of time it takes for a colony to build from nothing that the structure of the nest can be fairly repeated over and over. If you continue with your experiments, I would urge you to experiment with different sized starting clusters. With the different sized starting clusters you will begin to see wider variety of inital brood nest structures. You can further and expand your experimentation by not only starting new colonies, but also by manipulating existing established colonies. The mind set of the bee VERY MUCH DETERIMINES what kind of comb is going to be built. This following experience can also be simulated by placing an empty top bar smack dab in the middle of the brood nest if you don't wish to just LET THE FOLLOWING HAPPEN. Have you ever seen your hives attacked by wax moth? I have, even in strong colonies and the results are very interesting and directly impact Dennis' observations. And what happens is the bees either don't seem recognize the threat early on, but recognize it later when symptoms of the moth because evident, OR they let it occur (I say this because in some few cases I have seen the bees and the moth's co-existing successfully and peacefully). Let's all key in right now the thought that this isn't occuring during 1st cycle crunch time. In fact it can ALMOST NEVER happen during the 1st brood cycle. The ratio of bees to comb is far too high for moths to successfully invade unless the cluster is already really small. It requires an equilibrium of bees to comb, so that the moths can do their work on comb unmolested by the bees. The primary target symptom seeming to be brood which can't escape from their cells when ready to emerge. When this happens and the bees recognize what's happening, they tear down the comb and kill the moth larvae. Now all of a sudden we have a bare comb or bare top bar depending on the amount of damage done, and the bees rework it. The bees aren't being forced to build cells according to the crunch time clock, they can build whatever they want or whatever is on their mind at the time. The bees when needing the comb will rebuild it to whatever specification they deem necessary at that time. If during the height of a flow, the bees will built a sole and whole comb of honey storage RIGHT IN THE MIDDLE of the brood nest. If the bees are in a brood rearing mindset, they build EXTEMELY UNIFORM brood comb. Next year dennis, in the spring while it is still cold yet not cold enough to do harm, and when the bees have utilized the already existing brood comb for early buildup so they will have NEED for more brood room (again smart seasonal management), place empty bars within the brood nest. Place as many as you feel is safe, but only 1 empty bar between any two good brood combs. What you will discover very soon, is a uniformly drawn brood comb built from top to bottom of cells that match your CORE BROOD nest cell dimensions. Do this during the height of a flow, and you will find a comb built entirely to store honey. Understand this is NATURAL. This occurs naturally in colonies by means of wax moth. Its something that is already going to happen on its own if you have the stomach it allow it when it does happen on its own. Seasonal management is a nearly forgotten art. Seasonal management involves providing the bees with what they want/need when they want/need it. It is not what it has become, seasonal management is NOT forcing the bees to do something they wouldn't normally do. It is not forcing the bees to build brood comb in the middle of the early summer flows. It is not sweeping the hives of pests with chemicals, and it is not sticking in drone comb for varroa magnets. Any management technique that aids a colony's survival in any case when it could not survive on its own is a short term solution, and propogation of a long term problem. Long term problems are solved by playing the game of life. To Dick, Keith, and related discussion participants, We have been talking about breeding bees in extreme conditions. Its is one of the key charter points for the ApiarianBreedersGuild and NorlandBeekeepers groups. Through this discussion a few people at different times have asked about a location gene. Obviously this was mentioned either in jest, or to stir up further discussion on what it means for bees to be in different places. There is obviously no "location gene". What we can demonstrate though through an impossible to practice experiment is that some bees do better in different climates. We aren't talking about different breeds, ALTHOUGH certainly different breeds can do better here than there. Bear with me though, because this is an experiment that CAN BE explored in the mind, and as some have quoted einstein already, I don't feel wrong in pointing out that almost everything that einstein espoused was entirely through the excersizing the mind and performing experiments explored entire within the confines of his mind. So lets try this on our own and prove to ourselves just how smart each of us as individuals can be. This is a mind experiment only, obviously this is impossible to physically duplicate in the strictest sense of the word because there are some conditions that cannot be repeated which I will outline below through this mental exercise. Take a sample of bees which will remain the same sample of bees through out the course of this excerise (this is what cannot be duplicated, you can never take exactly the same set of bees through more than one phase of this experiment, only different though perhaps closely related cousins or progeny). Take a sample as large as you like, though I encourage you to think in terms of 1,000,000s colonies of bees simply to equalize the effects of external and random influences. In otherwords we make our sample large enough so that randomness doesn't effect the outcome of the experiment. Further forget the concept of race and strain for the moment, this is fairly unimportant. If it seems important to you, then imaging and equal distribution of all or as many of the races and strains of bees as you see fit. (AHB, NWC, Italians, Russians, Caucasians, whatever). The result of the experiement is relatively unchanged (again because of the size of our sample and the general nature of the experiment). If we take our 1,000,000 bees and place them all in alaska (simplify this by imagining that all of alaska is the same). Through the course of 1 year, several colonies will die, and several will succeed. Through the course of the 2nd year, several more will die and still several will succeed. (lets forget offsring for the moment as well, stick with the orginal sample, we'll talk about progeny later on). The bees which display the ability to survive will make it through winter. Continue this experiment as long as you wish and you will find that you have bees that (without other outside and random influences) are suited for that climate. If we take our 1,000,000 bees and place them in the sonara desert imagining that the climate is same all over the desert, you will have the same results. Some colonies will survive and others won't. 2nd year and the bees will continue to be filtered until all you are left are bees which succeed in the desert (again forgotting progeny). If we take out 1,000,000 bees and put them in Great Britain (again imaging all of great britain is uniform), and the same thing occurs. Some colonies will survive and some won't. Continue for another year or 2 and the bees further are filtered until the ones that display the right characteristics are the ones that are left. Repeat for Florida, repeat for African climates, repeat for south american climated, repeat for any climate you can imagine on this wholeseom green earth and you will find the results remain the same. The only differences will be two...The sets of bees which survive will change depending on the environments you selected, and perhaps the number of survivors proportional to the extreme of the condition. In alaska and the desert you will likely find fewer survivors due to the extreme natures of alaska and the desert, and you will find a larger number of survivors in less extreme areas such as perhaps Virginia or the North and West Meditaranean regions (Italy, France, Greece, etc.) If you repeat these same experiemnt (again impossible because you cannot have the same set of bees for each experiment), you will discover that the same general grouping of bees which display the same characteristics and abilities are the same ones that survive. This can be repeated as many times as you wish to run the experiment. Regardless of the criteria for survival, the same bees will survive when the criteria remain the same. Now lets take the non-existent progeny and place them into the mix. As these sets of bees which display characteristics for survival are able to express themselves by means of reproduction, the survial of the grouping becomes reinforced and the competition phase of the experiment comes into play. The bees which not only survive, but are able to compete with thier neighbors better than others will gather more nectar and pollen than the rest, will build-up more appropriately (not necessarily faster) according to conditions, and will issue swarms more readily when able. These swarms will replace lost colonies and fill voids where lost and loosing colonies were once in place. These bees will outcompete their neighbors that do not do so well, and the bees that don't do so well might not ever get a change to express their genes through reproduction, and if they can, they do so so seldomly that their lack of ability is not passed on to any great extent to the next round of players. Again just as the criteria for survival is diverse, so are the criteria for competition. Proper building up does not necessarily mean fastest building up, in a desert region perhaps building up too fast can mean death as there may not be enough nectar and pollen to keep such a large colony going. If the bees don't time things correctly, they might use up all their resources and not be able to raise more brood when the right time to do so does come, they may even starve themselves if they are not able to find enough to feed themselves let alone raise more brood. All in all, you can see that the bees we choose are very important to our success. Especially in extreme locations, some bees just may not be able to get the job done, where others can excel. What about dealing with pests and predetors, this remains the same. There is only one sure fire way to ensure that we have bees that can do the job, that is to let the bees that are going to do so anyway, die. That leaves the bees that can get the job done to do so. Each colony either has what it takes to survive and compete within any given environment or it does not. Should we try and keep those that don't have the characteristics and chances for survival and competition alivce and breeding, or should we let them as a whole figure out who's who in the game of life? Keeping the loosers going can only perpetuate a loosing circumstance for all. ALL means ALL of us, beekeepers, bees, plants and trees and cows and all the others that are impacted by the success of our little friend the honey bee. First criterion is the ability to survive, 2nd criterion is the ability to compete. Catching swarms already helps us out somewhat with both criteria because we know they came from somewhere at least successful enough to issue a swarm. Swarms have already shown the ability to reproduce in whatever climate we find ourselves. Even in the more mild climates, a swarm has had some filtering and comes from a colony that was able to get to reproduction. Although it may not be a perfect set of bees, its certainly a lot better chance than packages of bees from Florida to be sent to Alaska. -- Scot Mc Pherson scot@linuxfromscratch.org http://linuxfromscratch.org/~scot http://beewiki.linuxfromscratch.org AIM: ScotLFS ICQ: 342949 MSN:behomet@earthlink.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 17:11:14 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 15 Nov 2004 to 16 Nov 2004 (#2004-308) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 17/11/2004 05:10:02 GMT Standard Time, LISTSERV@listserv.albany.edu writes: > I've noticed that very old combs with small cells on them have very = > high numbers of mites and DWV. Just an observation. > > Josh Jaros > I recall reading that a study in South America found that mites tend to go for old rather than new comb. Chris :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 19:12:17 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: ALDEN MARSHALL Subject: Re: Bee Size vs Cell Size MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: "allen dick" To: Sent: Monday, November 15, 2004 7:12 PM Subject: Re: [BEE-L] Bee Size vs Cell Size >>> What puzzles me is that the above seems -- unless I misunderstand -- >>> to suggest that a natural broodnest does pretty much what the small Perhaps part of the answer here is that not all colonies do exactly the same thing, perhaps some colonies build proportionally more small cell comb than others and these are the survivors? Alden Marshall :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 22:19:10 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Bee Size vs Cell Size Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain I am sorry. I actually meant to say: I wish there were 4.9 mm cell one-piece, all plastic frames. All my hives have plastic frames and I think they are great. Cost effective and provide some 15% more cell area than wood frames. Waldemar LI, NY <> I believe it is. Try Dadant. I certainly had some samples for testing, which have been very satisfactory. The odd thing was, the bees I was downsizing at the time drew it out better than they did 4.9 wax. From what I remember, the plastic was food grade. Regards, Robert Brenchley :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 02:40:55 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu Comments: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Herv=E9=20Log=E9?= Subject: Re: Bee Size vs Cell Size In-Reply-To: <20041117.093336.23774.22425@webmail29.nyc.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > The attracting extracts could be used in drone comb > to make drone comb varroa trapping even more > effective. I don't think the attractants are strong > enough to lead the varroa hordes blindly down > through the screened bottom board into a sticky > death trap... :) As far as I can remember, male pheromones to trap varroas has been tried by a French team researchers (with Dr. Lecomte, I believe), but it failed. Never seen the study, just remembering what Mr. Lecomte told during a conference. Hervé Qc, Canada Vous manquez d’espace pour stocker vos mails ? Yahoo! Mail vous offre GRATUITEMENT 100 Mo ! Créez votre Yahoo! Mail sur http://fr.benefits.yahoo.com/ Le nouveau Yahoo! Messenger est arrivé ! Découvrez toutes les nouveautés pour dialoguer instantanément avec vos amis. A télécharger gratuitement sur http://fr.messenger.yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 18:48:22 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Bee Size vs Cell Size MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>>> What puzzles me is that the above seems -- unless I misunderstand >>>> -- to suggest that a natural broodnest does pretty much what the >>>> small > > Perhaps part of the answer here is that not all colonies do > exactly the same thing, perhaps some colonies build proportionally > more small cell comb than others and these are the survivors? What concerns me is that we seem to get a lot of speculation, rhetoric, and polemics and very little actual hard data when these topics come up. One thing about BEE-L that some of us love - and many hate - is that members tend to ask for proof and question speculation. I know there are many things out there that we don't understand, and don't know. Butb there is one thing worse than not knowing, in my mind, and that is thinking we know something we don't. I'm personally not satisfied with any of the elaborate explanations I have heard, and I think the truth is still 'out there'. allen Still waiting for a good explanation. A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 18:07:13 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu Comments: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Bee Size vs Cell Size In-Reply-To: <20041117.093336.23774.22425@webmail29.nyc.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii For Waldemar: Yet in the natural this is not natural IMPOV for you are talking whole frames of drone cells to work with, and I do not see this as happening in the feral cutouts I have done for years. What I do see is drone cells on the periferies, and anymore very little transitional cells. I do see uniform whole slabs of worker combs, and little amounts of large cells drawn. This matches the ratios written about pre-1900, and/or written in the late 1800s when drone cells were said to be in ratio of about 10-15% to the higher ratio of worker. And at that time only two distinct sizings of cells in a feral hive were noted. But saying this, we have been regressing now for several years in our area and helping other local beekeepers to do so also. But back to scenting whole frames of drone comb for attractant for mites and then pulling. This to me IMPOV disrupts the natural mating of colonies in the field, and somehow it seems that any disruption would in the long-run be bad for the bees for they would not be able to superceed, and mate naturally at certain times.For this would have bearing of the number of drones available in the drone pool if overdone. With small cell and working the bees back up and culling to retrain the bees back to the old written ratios of pre-1900 (of only 10-15% drone cells) which they seem to take to quite easily, really, you end up with more drones early and later, and better all around field breeding, which then allows you to have opportinity to select for traits you need to go forward and rebuild you colonies back. I just cannot see killing drones when it doesn't have to happen, and besides they work very hard to keep the mites and secondary diseases in check throughout the active year when left to do their jobs naturally with small cell ratios. Somehow making imbalance to me by sacrificing them does not make sense with whole sheets of drone cells destroyed this way and on top of that scented. Sorry.... Respectfully Submitted, Dee A. Lusby, Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Tucson, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OrganicBeekeepers __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 19:37:16 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Natural selection ( was The Week's Overview in discussion) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Scot & All, The subject Scot alludes to has been discussed on BEE-L from every viewpoint and is in the archives. I will sum things up for those new to BEE-L. What about dealing with pests and predetors, this remains the same. About the only pest we are deeply concerned about these days is varroa so lets single out varroa for the sake of discussion because when you paint with a broad brush saying "pests & predetors" you are taking in a bunch of territory. >There is only one sure fire way to ensure that we have bees that can do the job, that is to let the bees that are going to do so anyway, die. The above was the method adapted by the worlds best beekeeping minds when first faced with varroa. Grandpa advised the younger generation to do as Scot suggests. DID NOT WORK WITH VARROA! The problem was that varroa took no prisoners! Two operations I was involved with dropped almost two thousand hives before all hives were dead and chemical treatment was started. Queens from those survivors were sent to baton Rouge Bee lab. Dr. Harbo set out to breed a bee from those queens to tolerate varroa. Results were not good and daughters of queens which the lab thought were varroa tolerant were not always. selcting from hives with the lowest varroa counts was not working (reported at conventions by the bee lab) Harbo & Harris began to look deeper into varroa reproduction and discovered the SMR trait. Only then did a varroa tolerant bee began to surfice. I was one of the first to embrace the SMR queens and use in my program. The Russian bee is a product of an unknown number of years of NATURAL SELECTION ( many place over a 100 years but we know for sure since varroa was discovered) in dealing with varroa. Scot gives a good presentation about natural selection. I believe natural selection produces a dependable result (if you have got the time to wait!). If varroa was not such a killer of bees then perhaps the beekeeping industry could have done as Scot suggests at the end of his post. Because of the lethal nature of varroa the huge beekeeping industry in the U.S. had to rely on whatever means neccessary to supply the U.S. pollination needs including use of chemicals. Survivor research was being done but in an infantesimal way in my opinion. Dr. Shiminuki quickly realized the method Scot suggests ( which was suggested exactly as Scot posts in the 80's) would simply take too long ,cost the industry dearly in dollars so was dropped as a bad idea but the Baton Rouge Bee lab was givin the task to find a varroa tolerant bee. Dr. Shiminuki saw the only *logical* way to speed up natural selection was to go to Primorsky and return with the product of 100 years of natural selection against varroa. OK! Now we turn back the clock 6-7 years and find beekeepers willing to take on the survivor problem which failed at first for Harris & Harbo and many varroa researchers. The beekeeper took the best of survivors from around the U.S. ( a few of these queens had been a one in two thousand survivior) , added a super hygienic queen which was twice as hygienic as researchers consider hygienic, used an SMR queen, Russian genes and started a six way closed breeding program using instrumental insemination to control mating. The first few years were disappointing but then varroa tolerance began to show up. Once the colonies started surviving *varroa pressure * was added to further speed up the process. I at one time felt exactly as Scot suggests but after years of failure and looking at the varroa problem came to the solution at hand. Problem solved! Varroa tolerance is real but get in line for the finnished product as waiting lines are already long. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Ps. for greater detail on the new patent pending varroa tolerant bee & the Russian bee two articles are forth coming . One in ABJ ( varroa tolerant patent pending bee from six way closed breeding program) & one in BeeCulture ( my personal expierience with the Russian bee). Still time to start subscriptions! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 10:30:02 +0100 Reply-To: olda.vancata@quicknet.se Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Olda Vancata Subject: Re: Natural selection ( was The Week's Overview in discussion) In-Reply-To: <000001c4cd13$c8b515c0$37bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> > The Russian bee is a product of an unknown number of years of NATURAL > SELECTION ( many place over a 100 years but we know for sure since > varroa was discovered) in dealing with varroa. > Scot gives a good presentation about natural selection. I believe > natural selection produces a dependable result (if you have got the > time to wait!). In russian beekeeping magazine Pchelovodstvo nr. 1/2004 http://www.beekeeping.orc.ru/BeeN104.htm wrote prof. N. I. Krivtsov following: After a evolutionary short timeframe (the first bees appeared in Far East for about 130 years and the effects of varroa damaged bees where discovered in the beeyards of Primorsk for about 50 years ago) can hardly the results from natural selection appear and be confirmed in genetic resistency against such a parasite as varroa. Furthermore has the Russian Scientific Society under the same timeframe done ongoing and comparable tests which have confirmed that the Far East-bees have not shown any different survive rate for varroa and varroarelated diseases. \vov :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 11:28:19 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Natural selection ( was The Week's Overview in discussion) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Olda & All, >In russian beekeeping magazine Pchelovodstvo nr. 1/2004 http://www.beekeeping.orc.ru/BeeN104.htm I have not been able to pull up the English version so not yet able to read. >wrote prof. N. I. Krivtsov Many so called experts in the beekeeping world have said the search for a varroa tolerant bee was a waste of time. Prof. Krivtsov is not alone in his beliefs. I doubt Prof. Krivtsov livelihood depends on a bee which tolerates varroa being found. Ours did! To all others which doubt a varroa tolerant bee exists please write similar papers. Time will show which is correct! Our *proof* is simple. The bees surviving. The longer the bees survive the less the nahsayers will speak out. Saying the primorsky bees have not shown any different survival rate than other bees with the Russian testing is almost laughable. Sorry for my bluntness. I have years already involved in testing Primorsky bees side by side with a strain of Italian bees which can not hardly make a season end without treatment. *If you believe as Dr. Krivtsov does that the bees of Primorsky have not developed any varroa tolerance then you could conclude natural selection has not taken place.* *If you are convinced (as I am and the USDA-ARS researchers) that the bees of Primorsky do show varroa tolerance then what has caused the Primorsky bee to show varroa tolerance?* I would like to make one point which is often overlooked. The Russian queens as imported from Primorsky by the USDA-ARS did contain queens with little if any varroa tolerance. These queens were carefully removed from the program which is documented in the I believe three reports released by Dr. Rinderer (head of the Russian bee project for the Baton Rouge Bee Lab). We are trying to get a few of these cull queens to try and evaluate further but have not been able to so far by our ridged testing. Many trips were taken by Shiminuki & Rinderer to Primorsky to test the bees of the Primorsky region for varroa tolerance. Their conclusion was *yes* or the project would have been dropped. End of story. Our group has taken these genetics (all that were released through the lab as final product) and created our Russian bee. The Russian bee we have come up with (not yet offered for sale in the U.S.) has been put through years of varroa pressure both on the breeder queens (unheard of in most projects and we hope for a 50% KILL) and on daughter production queens ( also we strive for at least a 50% kill). Varroa infested frames with PMS were added to colonies to add pressure. Varroa infested bees were shock in hives. Two drone comb frames were left in (never removed to remove varroa) throughout the season in many hives. Whatever it took to get the 50% kill rate . Hopefully I will be able to read the article Prof. Krivtsov has written and comment but I have already read so many negative articles about the search for the varroa tolerant bee I do not need to read any more. If not for the advice of Dr. Shiminuki (retired head of the USDA-ARS ) saying a varroa tolerant bee would be found in 20 years and pointing the way before his retirement with the Primorsky project I would still be wishing for a varroa tolerant bee instead of caring for varroa tolerant bees. I checked two lines of untreated Russians yesterday morning and they look great. My instrumental insemination breeder queens (untreated) look great and ready for winter. Thanks for the post with reference to the Professors writings! Bob Ps. I call Dr. Shiminuki friend as do many beekeepers. I last spoke with "Shim" at the ABF meeting in Savannah I believe. Dr. Shiminuki & I have "locked horns" through the years on many subjects. One year I traveled to four of his speaking engagements to sit in the front row. "Shim" would only give a slight grin. I sincerely miss the beekeeping knowledge Dr. Shiminuki brought to our discussions! The calm manner he took on irate beekeepers with backs up against the wall looking for answers to tough beekeeping questions. "Shim" will go down in U.S. beekeeping history as leading the industry through its toughest times to date.Job well done! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 21:24:47 +0100 Reply-To: olda.vancata@quicknet.se Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Olda Vancata Subject: Re: Natural selection ( was The Week's Overview in discussion) In-Reply-To: <002101c4cd93$ffae0de0$5bbc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> > I have not been able to pull up the English version so not yet able to > read. It's very easy. You copy and paste piece by piece (pragraph) to: http://dictionary.reference.com/translate/text.html \vov :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 14:45:09 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Bee Size vs Cell Size Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain >>I just cannot see killing drones when it doesn't have to happen, and besides they work very hard to keep the mites and secondary diseases in check throughout the active year when left to do their jobs naturally with small cell ratios. Somehow making imbalance to me by sacrificing them does not make sense with whole sheets of drone cells destroyed this way and on top of that scented. Sorry.... No need to be sorry, Dee. I don't use mite trapping in drone cells in my hives. The idea does not appeal to me 'ethically' (slaughter of the innocents...) even if it does control mites. When mites got bad this year, I used sucrocide sprays with mixed results instead. Regards, Waldemar LI, NY :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 09:28:37 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Living Liver In-Reply-To: <20041117161122.82130.qmail@web51608.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Dee Lusby writes: >Amazing how the broodnest with proper sized comb >acts like a living liver cleaning up disease and parasisitc >mite problems with the help of the workers at this period >of time each year I know that Dee understands that this analogy can be pushed further. After 30 years of analyzing chemicals inside beehives throughout the U.S., we well understand that the wax combs reflect the chemical environment, not only chemicals used inside the hive, but also those from the outside environment -- agri-chemicals, industrial pollutants, emissions from vehicle exhausts, etc. Much of that ends up in wax. Recently, a comment was made on this list that USDA researchers had new information about mite treatment residues in combs and mite resistance, and were going to recommend rotating brood combs into the honey supers. USDA is just catching up with the sampling technologies that we've used for 10 years -- amazing what you find in a beehive with new generation, more sensitive instrumentation. Ok, I hope that the comment about a recommendation for moving frames was in error. Many of these chemicals will last for extraordinarily long times when sorbed into wax. Moving 'contaminated' brood frames into the honey supers won't necessarily 'clean' them up. You will get some dilution and dispersion, due to bees rebuilding part of the cells with new wax, and depending on how the chemicals partition, you may export some into your honey. In terms of developing resistance, this should really speed that process up. Spread the chemical out in more dilute form throughout the hive. Not a tactic that I would employ. Cheers Jerry P.S. If you want a quick overview of chemicals in beehives, run down a copy of the following book: Honey Bees: Estimating the Environmental Impact of Chemicals James DeVillers and Minh-Ha Pham-Deleque Taylor and Francis, London and New York 2002 Contains 332 pages on this topic and issues like Imadacloprid, Transgenic materials, etc. In this book, we published our findings for Volatile and Semi-Volatile Organic Compounds in the Air inside beehives located in Montana and north of Baltimore, Maryland. Most of the nastiest chemicals are industrial/urban, with a few military unique compounds due to our work at Aberdeen Proving Ground. I did a fast count, we produced 12 pages of fine print tables listing chemicals found -- and we weren't looking for miticides. In other technical reports, we itemize concentrations of trace elements and heavy metals, trace quantities of radio-active materials, and lots of pesticide residues found in these same colonies (~ 80-120 colonies per year, 3-4 sampling periods per year, wide spectrum chemical sweeps looking at chemicals in/on bees, pollen, and the atmospheres inside beehives. Our organics chapter is: Smith, G.C., J.J. Bromenshenk, D.C. Jones, and G.H. Alnasser. Chapter 2 Volatile and semi-volatile organic compounds in beehive atmospheres. Finally, I suggest getting a library copy - the book is in limited distribution and pricey. We got 1 free copy, had to order more, so I know what it costs. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 09:35:50 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: looking for mite infested, diseased hives in Washington state for research probe Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Everyone: Here's a request that I probably won't get answered. We have some sophisticated sensors that may be able to quickly recognize a parasitized or diseased hive -- but we need to build a signature files from sick, mite, and beetle infested hives. I'm driving to Seattle form Missoula this Sunday to test an expanded version of the system in Bellevue, intend to spend Thanksgiving in the Seattle area, and return next (a week from now) Saturday. Our research would greatly benefit from our ability to stop and profile 'sick' colonies. Now, I understand that folks aren't going to jump up and say I've got hives with problems. Be assurred, we will keep it in strictest confidence -- remember, we're from Montana, have nothing to say regarding the practices of WA beekeepers. If you have hives that are in bad shape (and I assume are being treated), and would let us stop and take some readings -- this will not harm the bees, although I will ask to bore a 1/8in diameter hole in one bee box, please contact me directly by e-mail, or by phone 406-243-5648 (office), 544-9007 cell. Thank you for your assistance. You will be helping the entire industry. Jerry Bromenshenk University of Montana :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 23:56:50 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Roy Nettlebeck Subject: Re: Natural selection ( was The Week's Overview in discussion) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit . > The beekeeper took the best of survivors from around the U.S. ( a few of > these queens had been a one in two thousand survivior) , added a super > hygienic queen which was twice as hygienic as researchers consider hygienic, > used an SMR queen, Russian genes and started a six way closed breeding > program using instrumental insemination to control mating. > > The first few years were disappointing but then varroa tolerance began to > show up. > Bob Harrison Hi Bob and All, The knowledge and push for hygienic behavior goes way back to Steve Tabor. The info has been out for a long time. The real problem is breeding for hygienic behavior Two genes are involved , that is known.So you can be going along just fine , then you loose one. A six way cross gives you some diversity. That is one reason Dr. Rinderer has gone back to Russia to get more stock.To make a sustainable change in the bee, you need a large pool of genes. Inbreeding will come back to bite you. No matter what stock that has a resistance to varroa , you will need to cull out the bees that don't meet your needs. I wish we did have a straight line to heaven, its a little more complicated that just putting in a new queen and your there. Beekeepers need to be beekeepers and pay attention to there hives. There is no option for GOOD beekeeping. Dee has got one answer. I think it is a good one. Russian stock has worked for me.Both have taken a lot of work and attention. We do need more breeders to get onboard. I know one up here in Washington, that I'm mentoring. Young and knows bees and queen production.He came from Kona. Keep pushing improved stock by nature and it will work in the long run. Best Regards Roy :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 19:10:24 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: TxBeeFarmer Subject: George Imirie MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Haven't heard from George Imirie since August. Anyone know how he's doing? (West Texas) Mark :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 17:39:47 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu Comments: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Living Liver In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20041119090837.052740c0@selway.umt.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Jerry Bromenshenk and all: Jerry you wrote, I know that Dee understands that this analogy can be pushed further. Reply: Yes, I SURE do!!! Much much further............... I had originally written, "Amazing how the broodnest with proper sized comb acts like a living liver cleaning up disease and parasisitc mite problems with the help of the workers at this period of time each year" And you came back with the chemcial contamination trigger I had hoed someone would reply to.....Thank you. For years beekeepers in industry have been told to take the honey supers off and place the various contaminating treatments into the broodnest..............as you have pointed out. I sure hope this is an error as to what recommendations will be in the future, for combs rotated out of the broodnest area, for it can only bring on product contamination problems if treated combs, now many of which are topped out with various treatments, get rotated into the honey supers and used during the active beekeeping year. Makes one wonder where product contamination liability would end up..........frightening thought, and just more filtering work for packers, that even if they could, they might not be able to, once leached into the honey. For here to do it right, the combs would have to be rotated out, melted down and then recycled to try to clean the contamination problem up. Not passed on to a higher level that could, may, might effect the honey product, so many have sought to protect in the public's eye as "clean and pure, and wholesome". It is also why I am going to repeat what I said: Amazing how the broodnest with proper sized comb acts like a living liver cleaning up disease and parasisitc mite problems with the help of the workers at this period of time each year...........meaning without various treatments of drugs, chemicals, essential oils, FGMO, acids, etc. and until such time,...................... the drones do such a wonderful job of keeping the workers safe and able to do their jobs during the active year, by taking the heat themselves in direct line of fire, so good brood can be raised and colony numbers increase, and life goes on.........without the worry of out of balance pests, predators, and secondary diseases. Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Tucson, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OrganicBeekeepers __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 03:49:47 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu Comments: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Herv=E9=20Log=E9?= Subject: Re: Living Liver In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20041119090837.052740c0@selway.umt.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Thank you for your fast response. Just ordered a used book from a library in England by abebooks.com for 55$CA. Like so much buying books... I also like those multinational publications with knowledge updates from different countries. Just regret I stil haven't seen Montana ! Merci encore ! Hervé --- Jerry Bromenshenk a écrit : > Dee Lusby writes: > >Amazing how the broodnest with proper sized comb > >acts like a living liver cleaning up disease and > parasisitc > >mite problems with the help of the workers at this > period > >of time each year > > I know that Dee understands that this analogy can be > pushed further. After > 30 years of analyzing chemicals inside beehives > throughout the U.S., we > well understand that the wax combs reflect the > chemical environment, not > only chemicals used inside the hive, but also those > from the outside > environment -- agri-chemicals, industrial > pollutants, emissions from > vehicle exhausts, etc. > > Much of that ends up in wax. Recently, a comment > was made on this list > that USDA researchers had new information about mite > treatment residues in > combs and mite resistance, and were going to > recommend rotating brood combs > into the honey supers. > > USDA is just catching up with the sampling > technologies that we've used for > 10 years -- amazing what you find in a beehive with > new generation, more > sensitive instrumentation. > > Ok, I hope that the comment about a recommendation > for moving frames was in > error. Many of these chemicals will last for > extraordinarily long times > when sorbed into wax. Moving 'contaminated' brood > frames into the honey > supers won't necessarily 'clean' them up. You will > get some dilution and > dispersion, due to bees rebuilding part of the cells > with new wax, and > depending on how the chemicals partition, you may > export some into your honey. > > In terms of developing resistance, this should > really speed that process > up. Spread the chemical out in more dilute form > throughout the hive. Not > a tactic that I would employ. > > Cheers > > Jerry > > P.S. If you want a quick overview of chemicals in > beehives, run down a > copy of the following book: > > Honey Bees: Estimating the Environmental Impact of > Chemicals > James DeVillers and Minh-Ha Pham-Deleque > Taylor and Francis, London and New York > 2002 > > Contains 332 pages on this topic and issues like > Imadacloprid, Transgenic > materials, etc. > > In this book, we published our findings for Volatile > and Semi-Volatile > Organic Compounds in the Air inside beehives located > in Montana and north > of Baltimore, Maryland. Most of the nastiest > chemicals are > industrial/urban, with a few military unique > compounds due to our work at > Aberdeen Proving Ground. > > I did a fast count, we produced 12 pages of fine > print tables listing > chemicals found -- and we weren't looking for > miticides. > > In other technical reports, we itemize > concentrations of trace elements and > heavy metals, trace quantities of radio-active > materials, and lots of > pesticide residues found in these same colonies (~ > 80-120 colonies per > year, 3-4 sampling periods per year, wide spectrum > chemical sweeps looking > at chemicals in/on bees, pollen, and the atmospheres > inside beehives. > > Our organics chapter is: > > Smith, G.C., J.J. Bromenshenk, D.C. Jones, and G.H. > Alnasser. Chapter > 2 Volatile and semi-volatile organic compounds in > beehive atmospheres. > > Finally, I suggest getting a library copy - the > book is in limited > distribution and pricey. We got 1 free copy, had to > order more, so I know > what it costs. > > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ > and other info --- > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: > Vous manquez d’espace pour stocker vos mails ? Yahoo! Mail vous offre GRATUITEMENT 100 Mo ! Créez votre Yahoo! Mail sur http://fr.benefits.yahoo.com/ Le nouveau Yahoo! Messenger est arrivé ! Découvrez toutes les nouveautés pour dialoguer instantanément avec vos amis. A télécharger gratuitement sur http://fr.messenger.yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 22:09:07 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lionel Subject: Re: Living Liver MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All, Speaking of books, a man asked me if I knew of a book about honey and vinegar published by some company in Connecticut many years ago. Does anyone know of this book? Lionel :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 04:40:26 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Lesli St. Clair" Organization: Ithaca College Subject: Fred Hale In-Reply-To: <20041120013947.60456.qmail@web51601.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/11/20/oldest.man.dies.ap/index.html Fred Hale, beekeeper and world's oldest man, has died. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 12:18:12 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robin Dartington Subject: Re: looking for mite infested, diseased hives in Washington state for research probe MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Jerry Bromenshenk" " We have some > sophisticated sensors that may be able to quickly recognize a parasitized > or diseased hive -- but we need to build a signature files from sick, > mite, > and beetle infested hives. " Can we just ask - are you recording sounds within the hive or other types of reading? If sounds, are you building on the development of the Apidictor by Rex Boys , a UK BBC sound engineer? His machine worked for him, but he had particularly well trained ears that could pick out the sound of just one instrument in an orchestra and so also the sound of part of the bees who were naughtily singing away while building queen cells or whatever. Does your machine also depend on special abilities for isolating and decoding the signals - or could we all record sounds with say a microphone and simple casette recorder and send you tapes? Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 09:30:37 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Marron Subject: Living Liver MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Is there anyone on the list from Denmark? I heard that every brood frame = there is changed every year to control disease. The source implied that = it was either required or a strongly encouraged custom.=20 Dick Marron :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 13:52:07 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Huhman Subject: Housel positioning of combs? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Two years ago on Bee-L the theory was presented that the orientation of combs in a hive contributes to everything from eliminating swarms to fostering contented bees. This "Housel positioning" theory stirred a fair amount of controversy at the time. I'm wondering if any of the researchers/commercial folks on here followed up in the past 2 years, and what conclusions may have been drawn? In other lists I see claims of no swarms from 500+ colonies, better-drawn combs, more honey, etc. using this technique. It seems something worth pursuing, if it can be reproduced. Comments? Thanks. Bill Huhman, central Ohio, 15-hive amateur :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 07:57:59 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: BEE-L Book on Honey and Vinegar MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" "Keith B. Forsyth" responded: Jarvis, D.C, M.D., D.C. "Folk Medicine", and "Arthritis and Folk Medicine", Published Fawcett Publications, Inc., Greenwich, Connecticut. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 10:40:55 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "D. Murrell" Subject: Re: Housel positioning of combs? Hi Guys, I arranged about half a dozen small cell size colonies according to the plan. The clusters stayed centered better over the winter than before and I attributed it to this arrangement. The following year I established some colonies on clean, large cell comb that were not arranged this way. The clusters were large in both types of hives and remained centered. I now attribute the centering on the healthier, larger clusters and not the comb orientation. Since then, I've run a few top bar hives to investigate the structure and cell size of natural comb. I kept track of the order combs were built and their weekly progress. Comb orientation was one component I looked for but didn't find any evidence for. Regards Dennis :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 08:08:19 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Book on Honey and Vinegar MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" mpalmer@TOGETHER.NET responded: Go to: http://www.jcrows.com/jarvis.html Mike :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 08:08:27 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Book on Honey and Vinegar MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" johnrath@STARBAND.NET responded: Ithink the book you are referring to is Folk Medicine by D.C. Jarvis. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 15:57:02 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Living Liver MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Dick > Is there anyone on the list from Denmark? I heard that every brood > frame there is changed every year to control disease. The source > implied that it was either required or a strongly encouraged custom. It is certainly performed by many Danish beekeepers, but I do not think it is compulsory. Regards & Best 73s... Dave Cushman G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Temporary Conditions... Using 'PATCHY' VPN pass-through server 3rd build :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 11:47:44 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robin Dartington Subject: Re: Living Liver MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Lionel" " Speaking of books, a man asked me if I knew of a book about honey and > vinegar published by some company in Connecticut many years ago. Does > anyone > know of this book?" Could it have been 'Folk Medicine' by the Vermont physician Dr D C Jarvis whose message was that honey and apple cider vinegar was effective against arthritis - a theme he concentrated on again in a second book, 'Arthritis and Folk Medicine'. This was reprinted in UK in 1962 - I do not know when first published in US. Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 13:26:45 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "D. Murrell" Subject: Re: Bee Size vs Cell Size Hi Guys, My new comb measurement pages are up. Barry's comb can be seen at: http://wind.prohosting.com/tbhguy/bee/barry.htm Joe's comb can be seen at: http://wind.prohosting.com/tbhguy/bee/joesw.htm Joe is in the process of transferring his website to the new link at the bottom of my page. It's not active yet, but will be in the future. Best Regards Dennis Have a great Thanksgiving :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 13:26:40 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ian Subject: Re: Housel positioning of combs? I have not done any strict test trials on this, but I have been paying attention these last couple of years on how comb is drawn out on foundation, with housal positioning in mind, with different frame orientations in the brood nest and honeysupers. I have found there to be no difference in the success of straight drawn comb, which ever way the combs are placed in the hive. Burr comb ,miss drawn drone comb and sutch have no relation to my success in drawing comb or with the arrangement of food stores and brood nest pattern in the hive. Like I said, I have not done any formal trials on it, but this is what i conclude from my observations. The biggest factor in successfull straight drawn comb is best with a heavey honey flow, and/or heavey feeding., not to mention stronge healthy hives full of younger bees. Given those two factors, foundatin will be drawn out perfect nearly every time. I now dont waste my time thinking of housal positiioning Ian :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 21:56:59 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: ALDEN MARSHALL Subject: Re: Living Liver MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dee Lusby" > > It is also why I am going to repeat what I said: Amazing > how the broodnest with proper sized comb acts like a living > liver cleaning up disease and parasisitc mite problems with > the help of the workers at this period of time each > year...........meaning without various treatments of drugs, > chemicals, essential oils, FGMO, acids, etc. > With all these contaminants in the wax, wonder what is in the rendered used for foundation? Perhaps a good argument for top bar hives or plastic foundation. Of course someone is bound to coil at the thought of plastic! Anyone do a study on contaminants in wood picked up from environment? Where does it end? course it never does, and of course the primary concern is residue at levels of adverse effect, wherever that is. Alden Marshall :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 00:32:14 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Dr. Pedro P. Rodriguez" Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 19 Nov 2004 to 20 Nov 2004 (#2004-312) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Good morning from Virginia after one of the most pleasant, warmer Fall days I have experienced during 17 years here. I read Bee-L daily and enjoy the topics being discussed here. However, I can not help but wonder the purpose of some of the postings. I dislike when folks throw in names for the sake of making volume to their claim or contribution. To make my point: Gas chromatography laboratory analysis of wax and honey from hives under treatment with FGMO (using Dr. Pedro Rodriguez's published protocol!), the analysis showed, absolutely, not even traces of residues of either. These test results have been published world-wide, including posting on www.beesource.com I think that including FGMO in this post was unfair. Best regards and God bless. Dr. Rodriguez -- Proclaiming The Lord´s expression and creation with our honey bees. __________________________________________________________________ Switch to Netscape Internet Service. As low as $9.95 a month -- Sign up today at http://isp.netscape.com/register Netscape. Just the Net You Need. New! Netscape Toolbar for Internet Explorer Search from anywhere on the Web and block those annoying pop-ups. Download now at http://channels.netscape.com/ns/search/install.jsp :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::