From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 10:25:03 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8512E4824C for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:24:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SF1MLi014128 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:24:49 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:24:49 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0601" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 721766 Lines: 17065 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2006 10:37:48 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: A Successful Invader; mtDNA MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In searching for more recent info about honey bee ancestry and mtDNA, I found a very interesting article. I don't know if most people can access it, so I have quoted it a bit. It is certainly worthwhile to read the whole thing. I know I learned a lot! Excerpts, quoted for the purpose of review: THE AFRICAN HONEY BEE: Factors Contributing to a Successful Biological Invasion By Stanley Scott Schneider, Gloria DeGrandi-Hoffman, and Deborah Roan Smith The African honey bee subspecies Apis mellifera scutellata has colonized much of the Americas in less than 50 years and has largely replaced European bees throughout its range in the New World. The African bee therefore provides an excellent opportunity to examine the factors that influence invasion success. One of the more remarkable aspects of the African bee is its ability to displace European honey bee subspecies in the New World. Initially, it was assumed that African and European bees would interbreed, giving rise to the "Africanized honey bee" of Latin America. However, although substantial hybridization occurs when African bees invade areas with European populations, over time European characteristics tend to be lost. Indeed, throughout much of its range in the New World, the invading honey bee population has remained essentially African in its nesting biology, swarming and absconding behavior, foraging and diet selection, and mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) characteristics. Study of geographic variation in the mtDNA of honey bees has revealed four geographic lineages of mtDNA mitotypes, or unique sequences, within A. mellifera: west European, east European, African, and Middle Eastern. The different subspecies of honey bees interbreed to produce viable, fertile offspring. The introduction of A. m. scutellata into Brazil therefore initiated the beginning of a grand, unplanned experiment on the relative fitness of European, African, and African/European hybrid honey bees in the wild, in apiaries, and under a variety of climatic conditions. [It is] possible to infer ancestry of African populations in the New World, and the gradual expansion of the African population from Brazil to the United States has provided a time series of older to younger feral African populations. [The] studies have shown that (a) there is a high frequency of African mtDNA in feral African populations, in some cases to the near exclusion of European mtDNA; (b) feral African populations may show evidence of paternal gene flow from European sources, but the frequency of European alleles gradually decreases in long-established feral African populations; and (c) the European alleles that persist over time are predominantly of west European rather than east European origin. [The] hybrid-swarm concept was seriously challenged when mtDNA polymorphisms revealed that over 97% of feral colonies from Brazil, Venezuela, Honduras, and Mexico possessed African mtDNA haplotypes; east European mitotypes were virtually absent. Because honey bee mtDNA is maternally inherited without recombination, this indicated that feral African colonies were matrilineal descendants of African bees, most likely A. m. scutellata. Although European queens in managed colonies were mating with African drones, European-matriline (Africanized) swarms escaping from apiaries were clearly not a major component of the feral African populations in the regions sampled. African populations in Brazil have been in contact with European honey bees since the 1950s and thus have had more time than any other African population in the Americas to accumulate European mtDNA. However, 35 years after the introduction of African bees into Brazil, 100% of 126 hived feral swarms carried mtDNA characteristic of A. m. scutellata Thus, even in areas where hybridization and introgression of European genes have been particularly likely, European mitotypes have dropped to low frequencies, especially in the feral population. A major puzzle in the African bee invasion is the differential persistence of west versus east European alleles in the feral population and the extent to which this phenomenon will continue as the African bee colonizes North America. The greater persistence of west European alleles may be related to the question of hybrid inferiority. West European alleles may be more compatible than east European alleles with a mostly African genome or may confer some advantage in particular habitats. Alternatively, the west European markers that persist in the New World may represent neutral alleles that introgressed early in the invasion process in Brazil and may have only minor effects on the behavior and biology of the African population. Nest usurpation is a form of social reproductive parasitism in which small African swarms invade European colonies, replace the resident queens, and cause the complete and instantaneous loss of European matrilines. Annual usurpation rates have been reported at 5% in Venezuela and 0%–40% in different regions of Mexico. In southern Arizona, annual usurpation rates can reach 10%–25%. Nest usurpation has therefore been speculated to play an important but regionally variable role in the spread of African bees in Latin America and may contribute to the loss of European matrilines in the United States. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2006 14:14:56 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: A Successful Invader; mtDNA A very brief follow-up: > "Seasonal nest usurpation of European colonies by African swarms in Arizona, USA" by S. S. Schneider, et al > Our study indicates that re-queening colonies during certain times of the year could, instead of reducing the chance of Africanization, actually increase vulnerability to becoming African due to usurpation. > Our study suggests that nest usurpation plays an important, but annually variable role in the loss of European characteristics in the southwestern U.S. Because of migratory beekeeping and commercial queen-rearing practices, nest usurpation in the southwestern states could potentially result in the transportation of African matrilines to other regions of the country. Comment: I wonder if folks in the Southern USA have observed this takeover by African Bees? I talked to a beekeeper who trucks bees back and forth between FL and NY who acknowledged that they "get in" to managed hives. pb -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2006 12:51:05 -0800 Reply-To: Tim Vaughan Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: A Successful Invader; mtDNA MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Great heads up from Peter. I'd also love to hear from anyone with first hand experience of AHB invading other hives. I've certainly never seen it and wonder how it's even possible without huge casualties on both sides. A weak hive, say with a couple empty supers getting invaded from an unguarded entrance, sure, but a take over deal? If it's true I'll have to start giving a different answer at the Farmer's Market to people with one of the most common questions, which is "Do Killer Bees take over the other beehives?" I usually just say no, since there's no time to talk about A.m. Capensis pseudoqueens and all that stuff. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 06:35:27 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: mark berninghausen Subject: TBHes Advantages/Disadvantages Comments: To: Beekeepers Organic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit What aren the advantages and disadvantages of the Top Bar Hive,TBH? Are there any advantages over the Langstroth design when it comes to commercial beekeeping? And why the TBH and not the Eastern European method of horizontal beekeeping, that uses basically the same sort of equipment that most U.S.A. commercial beekeepers use, except that it is collateral instead of vertical? The growing popularity of TBHes in "Modern North America" is interesting to me. What's up with that? Is it just to have something different? Is it more convenient for some people? I'd like to know. Mark Berninghausen --------------------------------- Yahoo! Photos Ring in the New Year with Photo Calendars. Add photos, events, holidays, whatever. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 08:52:01 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Adrian M. Wenner" Subject: Successful Invaders In-Reply-To: <006601c60f15$1655a800$6401a8c0@S0000999999> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v622) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Jan 1, 2006, at 12:51 PM, Tim Vaughan responded to Peter Borst's comments: > Great heads up from Peter. I'd also love to hear from anyone with > first hand > experience of AHB invading other hives. I've certainly never seen it > and > wonder how it's even possible without huge casualties on both sides. A > weak > hive, say with a couple empty supers getting invaded from an unguarded > entrance, sure, but a take over deal? Orley (Skip) Taylor at the University of Kansas had extensive firsthand experience watching takeovers of EHB hives by AHB swarms. He described, at a meeting I attended, what he said was a common practice. A small AHB swarm would alight at one end of a landing board and stay there a few days before moving into the EHB colony. By doing so, the AHB swarm presumably gained the odor of the EHB colony. Gard Otis summarized and provided several references (including those by Taylor, Michener, Danka & Rinderer, Vergara, and Fletcher) on p. 221 and 222 in his chapter, "Population Biology of the Africanized Honey Bee" in a 1991 volume edited by Marla Spivak, David Fletcher, and Michael Breed (THE "AFRICAN" HONEY BEE). Adrian Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home office phone) 967 Garcia Road wenner@lifesci.ucsb.edu Santa Barbara, CA 93103 www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/index.htm ******************************************************************* * "...the intensity of the conviction that a hypothesis is true has * no bearing on whether it is true or not." * * Peter Medawar (1979) ******************************************************************* -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 12:28:08 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: David Kraus Subject: AHB Usurpation Swarms http://www.ars.usda.gov/research/publications/publications.htm? SEQ_NO_115=155925 <> -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 12:48:12 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: BEE-L: AHB Usurpation Swarms MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The url given by David Kraus had wrapping problems. I had to search for = the article he referenced, and when I found the article I passed it = through tinyurl.com and came up with: http://tinyurl.com/76e62 =20 Dave Cushman reported he has problems with tinyurls. Has anyone else = experienced using tinyurls? =20 Happy New Year! =20 Aaron Morris -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 13:15:48 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "D. Murrell" Subject: Re: Successful Invaders Hi Guys, I have watched a very small swarm enter a large three story colony in Arizona. They alighted on the side of the hive. Marched down to the bottom board and clustered there, on its bottom surface. A small number of bees, from the swarm, were constantly going into and returning to their cluster from the large hive entrance. After a couple of hours, the whole swarm marched freely into the large hive without any fighting or disturbance. And there wasn't any sign fighting or of dead bees two days after the swarm entered the hive. It's interesting to note that there were plenty of empty bee hives and supers available to the swarm, but they chose a large inhabited hive. I don't know, for sure, that the small swarm was AHB. But I suspect that it was. Regards Dennis -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 13:36:56 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "D. Murrell" Subject: Re: TBHes Advantages/Disadvantages Hi Mark, I'm a top bar hive convert. I had been a commercial beekeeper using Langs for decades. But I found that tbhs better suit my needs when I left the bee business and became a hobbiest. I've written the following about tbh advantages on my website: "Tbhs have many advantages over most modern equipment. They are essentially self contained. So, there is little need for additional equipment taking up storage space elsewhere. The bees stay calmer when worked. There's no heavy lifting. And tbhs are almost dirt cheap as compared to the cost of conventional beekeeping equipment. A conventional hive, today, will cost close to $250. A tbh can be built for less than $30. In some cases tbhs can be free. And a top bar hive beekeeper won't even be tempted to get on the beekeeper's spending treadmill. Most standard bee equipment simply has no application in a top bar hive." One advantage I failed to mention on my site, is the ease with which comb can be rotated out and regenerated to keep a clean broodnest. One disadvantage is that a tbh must be built rather than bought. And, so far, they can't be easily managed vertically for maximum honey production like a Lang can. But I'm working on it :>)Another disadvantage is that they take more time to work because the comb is more fragile. Also, a tbh beekeeper will probably need to learn thb basics by himself as there are few thb beekeepers around to demonstrate. And Lang beekeepers aren't much help, as they have perfected some very nasty comb handling habits that just don't work around tbhs. It took me two years to unlearn mine:>) Regards Dennis -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 14:30:32 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Steve Bonine Subject: Cost of getting started as a hobby beekeeper In-Reply-To: <200601021836.k02Ia2Ht027414@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A recent post that quoted the cost of a conventional hive piqued my interest. I went to Mann Lake's website and priced a conventional hive. Arbitrarily I included a hive stand, two 9 5/8" hive bodies with 10 frames each, three 6 5/8" medium supers with 10 frames each, inner cover, and outer cover. Please don't quibble too much, as the cost is intended to be an approximation. The cost of the above items, unassembled bodies but assembled frames/foundation, is $167.45. I just thought I would share this in the spirit of answering the common question from potential beekeepers who want to know how much it will cost them to get started. I'm going to have to update my standard answer to that question since I've been lowballing it quite a bit. Looks like the cost for starting with two colonies is about $550. For reference, here are my notes. If I did something stupid in the calculations, please be gentle. 9 5/8 hive body $9.95 2 $19.90 9 1/8 frames w/Rite-Cell $1.99 20 39.80 6 5/8 medium super $6.95 3 20.85 6 1/4 frames w/Rite-Cell $1.90 30 57.00 Outer + inner cover $20.95 1 20.95 Hive stand $8.95 1 8.95 Total $167.45 Smoker $30 Veil 25 Feeders 10 Bees 100 Misc 50 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 17:28:56 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Tiny Url; was: AHB Usurpation >Dave Cushman reported he has problems with tinyurls. Has anyone else experienced using tinyurls? I have found they work, but I am sure that nothing works perfectly every time! Most of these documents are easily found, anyway, by searching for the title, or a few key phrases. Has anyone seen anything recently about the ability of AHB to overwinter? I had thought they couldn't cluster effectively, so they wouldn't become settled in the cold country. I just read an article in a ten year old issue of Bee World. It described testing AHB hives in a snowy Argentina location, and also in a refrigerated room. They did just as well as EHB under the same conditions. pb -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 20:05:22 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Cost of getting started as a hobby beekeeper In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-2CBE6BB9 > A recent post that quoted the cost of a conventional hive... I build most of my equipment from Eastern White Pint. I buy shorts (2' imperfect ends cut off longer boards) from local saw mills. The cost figures to about $1.00 per item...Bottom, body, etc. Outers are a bit more, because of the cost of the metal pan. The inner has a piece of plywood as the body, and costs about $1.00. Frames and foundation cost about $1.25 per unit. So, 2 deeps and 3 mediums with 10 frames, bottom, inner, and outer costs less than $75...if you build your own. Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.9/217 - Release Date: 12/30/2005 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 17:48:54 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: A Successful Invader In-Reply-To: <200601022228.k02MKf4C005886@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Peter wrote: I wonder if folks in the Southern USA have observed this takeover by African Bees? I talked to a beekeeper who trucks bees back and forth between FL and NY who acknowledged that they "get in" to managed hives. Reply: I have never seen anything new. In all the years we have kept bees commerciallly, seeing small after swarms go into queenless colonies is nothing new. It is also said that queenless colonies made that way by migratory movement average 10% on many moves and has been written about in various journals over the years. Or just could be a large colony temporaryily queenless following swarming, or could be large apiary worked by beekeepers, and certain amount queenless by accidental manipulation. So is this takeover by so-called African bees or just surplus swarms looking for a natural home and finding one? Or even just a plain old swarm... Even CC Miller was writing way back in 1915 "Very frequently she comes out the back end of the hive or at the side, when the hive is raised on blocks" "It may happen, sometimes, that a swarm may go into a hive whose colonoy has swarmed a little while before, and where it is always peacefully received. I do not like this doubling up, but I do not know that I lose any thing by it..." Concerning after swarming by CC Miller (those litttle swarms by the way)"Neither were they as methodical as prime swarms about returning to their own hives. Almost any hive seemed to suit them providing there was a good deal of noise at the entrance, and when swarming got well underway for the day there were plenty of swarms with noise at the entrance." So this tells me that swarms normally and for many decades have been observed going into colonies ........needing a new queen. See nothing wrong with that. Saves us a lot of work. Also still have never seen our colonies get bad to manage either in all these years. So much for takeovers, or is it new wording for old habits? Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________ Yahoo! for Good - Make a difference this year. http://brand.yahoo.com/cybergivingweek2005/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 07:22:38 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: TBHs Advantages/Disadvantages MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 03/01/2006 05:04:53 GMT Standard Time, LISTSERV@listserv.albany.edu writes: One disadvantage is that a tbh must be built rather than bought. And, so far, they can't be easily managed vertically. I built mine so that the top bars are of the same length as my frame top bars - 17" to fit British national hives. Thus I can take out a bar with a queen cell for example and put it into a conventional hive or nuc. I don't super my hive but often in the autumn give it a couple of wet supers side by side to clean, taking out a bar under each super for access and closing the resulting holes at the ends by wooden blocks. The TBH isn't very productive of honey but is a good educational toy. Bees are so calm in it that I have been known to open and examine with no smoke and no protection. Chris -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 07:25:04 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: A Successful Invader >Peter wrote: >I wonder if folks in the Southern USA have observed this >takeover by African Bees? I talked to a beekeeper who >trucks bees back and forth between FL and NY who >acknowledged that they "get in" to managed hives. > >Reply: >I have never seen anything new. In all the years we have >kept bees commerciallly, seeing small after swarms go into >queenless colonies is nothing new. Right. That's not what I meant. I have seen so-called virgin swarms where a number of bees go out with a queen on her mating flight. What I was asking about is "takeover by African Bees" -- where a colony of European bees is requeened by an African swarm. Evidently this is a significant threat to migratory beekeepers coming in from other areas. Supposedly there is a large feral population of African bees in Arizon, Texas and California and bees from all over the US are moved into these areas. That's what I was asking about. Of course, I realize that people may not want to admit their hives contain Africans. Just thought I'd ask pb -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 05:10:39 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: A Successful Invader In-Reply-To: <20060103014854.42805.qmail@web51609.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >Dee’s Reply: >I have never seen anything new. In all the years we have >kept bees commerciallly, seeing small after swarms go into >queenless colonies is nothing new. .... So is this takeover by so-called African >bees or just surplus swarms looking for a natural home and >finding one? >So this tells me that swarms normally and for many decades >have been observed going into colonies ........needing a >new queen. I am not disputing Dee’s claim. However, is it conjecture? Dee, you’ve seen it happen. Do/Did you know for certain that the hive being invaded was queenless? Africanization is becoming a real concern for those of us in lower Alabama now. We need to be on top of this now, constantly. We need factual information, not conjecture. I have hives located close to cattle. I do not need for these bees to attack any member of the herd or I will loose my bee yard. It is a nice one with a pond at the back of it for water in the summer. I am also planning to have nucs located at the back of a tiny pecan orchard and don’t need the Africanized bees there. Mike in lower Alabama --------------------------------- Yahoo! Shopping Find Great Deals on Holiday Gifts at Yahoo! Shopping -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 08:58:01 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Cost of getting started MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mike Palmer said "Frames and foundation cost about $1.25 per unit." If you are within driving distance of Watertown, NY there is an Amish guy selling assembled frames for $.68 (glued and nailed, with two nails horizontally in each side of the top bar). If you will buy at least 100 sheets of deep and 150 of medium you can get waxed plastic from Permadent for about $.60 each. Cost is about the same as Mike's, but everything is cut and assembled. That makes a big difference when it comes to frames. Frames: Dan Miller, 5670B County Road 10, Heuvelton NY 13654. Foundation: Permadent, 605-345-3211 (South Dakota). -- Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 10:02:42 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Cost of getting started as a hobby beekeeper In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Steve Bonine wrote: > Looks like the cost for starting with two colonies is about > $550. When I am asked the question of how much it will cost to keep bees, I ask if they have a pedigreed dog or cat. I point out that such a pet easily cost more than starting bees, especially since the pet is a continuing expense while bees are fairly cheap to keep after the initial investment. Even a pet from the pound will cost as much as a colony of bees over a year, with food, medication and vet bills. And you can leaved home and your bees are fine while the pet will need a kennel or friend to keep them. Plus you get honey and pollination form the bees. But a pet does give you lots of manure to pick up and compost. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 09:09:59 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: A Successful Invader In-Reply-To: <20060103014854.42805.qmail@web51609.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed >Dee said, >seeing small after swarms go into >queenless colonies is nothing new. Some years ago, we submitted a short paper to ABJ. It wasn't published, reasons unknown. An undergraduate student heard me talking about a MT beekeeper meeting at which the beekeepers were discussing what happens to bees lost from a truck (migratory beekeeper) -- specifically an un-netted load. Would the bees the blow off the load or wander out during refueling, etc. just linger about and die? Answer, using marked bees dumped out along a road about 1000 ft from a commercial bee yard was clear. The 'lost' bees found the beeyard almost faster than the student could drive over. Marked bees landed and entered colonies. Later in the day, he photographed marked bees attending the queen! We repeated this three times, over three years. Bees coming from downwind of the apiary get there faster, and more of the marked bees find the 'target' yard. Bees from upwind also find the yard, but take longer, and fewer show up -- so some must wander off. Interestingly, when bees were dropped at all four compass directions, some showed up from all directions -- and then entered the same colonies -- which might be on the edge of the apiary, but were often in the middle. In other words, these intruders picked a small subset of the colonies -- and bees from all four directions entered these same colonies -- it wasn't a matter of going into edge colonies from the nearest approach direction. Either these 'receiver' colonies were less aggressive about fending of the newcomers or these queens were pumping out more pheromone or some other factor that we couldn't measure. jerry -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 12:10:13 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: Cost of getting started as a hobby beekeeper MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 03/01/06 17:07:07 GMT Standard Time, bhfarms@SUSCOM-MAINE.NET writes: <> Bwetween manure and dead bees, a hive must make a fair contribution to the soil around it over a year as well. The advantage of the hive, of course, is that you don't have to worry about stepping in the result. Regards, Robert Brenchley -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 17:57:50 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: A Successful Invader; mtDNA Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>... European-matriline (Africanized) swarms escaping from apiaries were clearly not a major component of the feral African populations... I've read reports that Africanized bees failed to expand to the southern tip of South America and that their expansion stopped somewhere in Argentina. This gives hope to the northern regions of the US (and Canada). While Africanized genes may get brought in by migratory operation of package/queen shipments from the southern states, Africanized swarms may not survive the long, cold winters in feral settings. As long as beekeepers mind their hives, Africanized genes may not gain a lasting foothold in the north. Waldemar Long Island, NY (where we are experiencing a relatively mild winter this year...) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 13:11:22 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kim Flottum Subject: Cost, and time, of getting started as a hobby beekeeper MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Along with cost comes the time factor. A recent study, not at all scientific but fairly accurate, shows that the time needed to care for a colony over a year is more than for your pet cat, but less than for your pet dog...time is, in my book, an ongoing cost, and there's never enough. Kim Flottum Editor, BeeCulture -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 13:24:58 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Isis Glass Subject: Re: A Successful Invader Comments: To: Dee Lusby Dee writes: >seeing small after swarms go into queenless colonies is nothing new. > >So is this takeover by so-called African bees or just surplus swarms looking for a natural home? This behaviour is exceedingly rare in European honey bees and exceedingly typical of Africans. One could say that it is a reliable indicator of African bee presence in the area. And what do you mean by "so-called" Africans? What would you call them? Isis Glass -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 14:03:19 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Successful Invader MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Discussing Africanized bees taking over hives, Peter said "Of course, I realize that people may not want to admit their hives contain Africans. Jus= t thought I'd ask" Well...Peter, you could ask the NYS Inspection Group. One of their members said at the NYS Fall Meeting approximately "there has not been *any *(empha= sis mine) documented instances of Africanized bees having been brought to NY from Florida". Flat-out unequivocal statement. In the meantime, one beekeeper who migrates from Florida to NYS has been reporting that he 'knows' he is bringing Africanized bees up (statement based solely on his long experience as a beekeeper), folks in other states (particularly Maine) have been saying that analysis confirms suspicions that Africanized hives have been brought in, and others who migrate between Florida and NYS have been saying that in 2005 some hives were the most agressive they have ever seen. Tony Jadczak, State Bee Inspector in Maine will be a speaker at SABA's annual meeting this spring. It will be interesting to hear what he has to say about the supposely Africanized bees that somehow came out of Florida this past spring but bypassed New York to go to Maine for blueberry pollination. I guess I shouldn't take the NYS Inspectors so seriously. But they take themselves so seriously... Some, over the course of a lifetime, learn that it is best to never be unequivocal. Others are most always certain, and often in error. FWIW, Lloyd -- Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 14:31:05 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Successful Invader MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lloyd Spear wrote about an Apiary Inspector at the Empire State Honey Producers Association fall meeting stating, "there have not been any documented instances of Africanized bees having been brought to NY from Florida". Lloyd placed the emphasis on "any", whereas when I heard the statement I heard the emphasis on "documented". I thought the speaker was asserting that if African bees HAD been imported into New York State, the purported African bees were NOT tested and confirmed to be African. My recollection is the hot bees were simply not tolerated by the beekeeper and were destroyed before any tests could confirm (or not) their lineage. The message I came away with was if your bees are too hot to handle, address the problem. I was left wondering what will be done if the day comes when there are only hot bees left, but if that's what the future holds I suspect the bigger problem will be finding locations, not finding bees. Aaron Morris - I think, therefore I bee! -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 14:39:54 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Listserv Upgrade Scheduled for tomorrowFinal Notification MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I just received a reminder that the University will, "upgrade our current Listserv installation from version 1.8d to version 14.4. This upgrade is scheduled to occur tomorrow, Wednesday, January 4, 2006. Listserv will be unavailable starting at 6am. We anticipate the upgrade being finished by 5pm that same day, at which point Listserv should be available, running version 14.4." This means BEE-L will be unavailable most of the day tomorrow. Also be aware that an upgrade from 1.8 to 14.4 represents a QUANTUM LEAP in software! I suspect the look/feel and functionality of BEE-L may be different, hopefully enhanced after the upgrade. I do not have any advance notice what may be the differences, and hope subscribers are tolerant and patient as we learn the new package. Sincerely, Aaron Morris -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 14:37:50 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Ruzicka Subject: Formic Acid Injuries MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In the October issue of W.A.S James Bach wrote and I replied, I quote: “Several persons in Canada have severely damaged their lungs from breathing the acid during applications made to bee colonies. And some have burned themselves because of not using the correct gloves or spilling the acid on their clothes.” I just finished 4 seminars in Manitoba and neither myself, Rheal Lafreniere (Provincial Apiarist of Manitoba), Janet Tam of Ontario beekeepers transfer team or any of the 150 beekeepers attending the seminars have no knowledge of any of the above cases, except some blisters on pinched gloves. Can you please provide me with your source and actual proof of those things really happening in Canada? I am contacting all provincial apiculturists and provincial organizations to verify my information that Canada has an outstanding clean record of no lung damage because C-94 released very good safety recommendations in 1994. I will let you know the results. By now, January 2006 I have searched and followed the rumors to the real source including the only one quoting a reputable source: former Florida State Apiarist and my friend Laurence Cutts. According to Laurence he was misquoted. The person (name withheld) who lost their lungs and was on oxygen and recently died had according to the deceases son, a rare lung disease not connected to the use of formic acid. According to Laurence the local beekeepers who knew that this person was known to use formic acid attributed his illness to its use. Hence this is and example of how these horror stories are created. Following are replies that I have received up to today and I am looking for more input from anyone. According to what I have received until now there is no evidence that formic acid is carcinogenic and no one in the US or Canada lost lungs or life to formic acid. Please read the following emails. Bill Hi Bill (Received Dec. 16/05) You can Google for Formic acid and MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheet) and get lots of similar documents. I see NO hazard of cancer mentioned, among the many that ARE mentioned regarding corrosiveness. I see the one case of a worker killed when splashed directly in the face with hot formic acid from a vat, mentioned several times (years before beehive use) so if there WAS a serious case involving bee use I would expect it would be mentioned. Like household bleach, gasoline, vodka, aspirin, salt etc, a person COULD kill themselves with formic acid, and like Viagara, some people using the product are going to die eventually (and when ENOUGH people use it, somewhere, someone is going to die WHILE using it). The innuendos and correlations are worth next to nothing unless they have been properly investigated and an actual causal relation found: and even then it means little if the use pattern is not in compliance with that recommended. http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/healthguidelines/formicacid/ Kerry Clark, P.Ag., Crop Protection Specialist B.C. Ministry of Agriculture and Lands 4th Floor, 1201 - 103rd Ave Dawson Creek BC V1G 4J2 Tel. (250) 784 2559 Fax 250 784 2299 Toll Free: 1 877 772 2200 (Received Oct. 04/05) I've heard of none, and I've been using formic acid with mitegone pads spring and fall for the last three years without incident. If Jim has made the statement, perhaps he can supply data or specific instances. Cheers Bob C Hi Bill (Received Oct. 03/05) I have no knowledge of cases that would support Jim’s statement about lung damage. I hadn’t objected to other such statements, feeling that they were conceivable overstatements meant to heighten precaution. I saw Jim’s article and wondered whether there was justification for that statement. (Jim’s email above may be out of date). I don’t know whether Health Canada records such specifics. Willy Baumgartner of Medivet Pharmaceuticals 403 652 4441 would probably have heard of any cases. Rob Currie and his students have worked a lot with vapour concentrations, especially in wintering buildings, a special case where human exposure would be a concern. I kept enquiring for several years ending 4 years ago, and know of (heard third hand) one case of a splash in the eye from Saskatchewan (I don’t remember exactly how: maybe an applicator gun? (flushed with water, a couple of days of discomfort and concern, no permanent damage); and several cases of blisters or skin burns from liquid contact or using non- waterproof gloves, and one case where a container dripped onto someone’s jeans (so they had to remove and rinse them). In the pre PMRA approval assessment phase I did air sampling using special formic acid detecting Drager tubes, of exposure that someone would get using liquid onto absorbent paper towel on top bars, or inspecting treated colonies outdoors. The results were incorporated into the label precautions. The prolonged-release methods would result in higher (intermediate is more accurate: less than during initial liquid application, but at say 3-5 days post application, higher than the much-reduced levels from liquid application) vapour concentrations in hives. I have heard third hand of problems in the US, even one of someone bleeding from the ears (though I can’t imagine what formic acid exposure a person could have that would result in that). It may be true that if enough people handle a product capable of hurting them (formic acid, gasoline, laundry bleach) eventually someone will get hurt. PMRA decided that the precautions reduce the risk to an acceptable level. I wonder whether any of those who have been injured by bee hive use of formic acid were adhering to the precautions. Kerry Clark, P.Ag., Crop Protection Specialist (Received Oct. 04/ 05) No I have not heard of lung damage but I am sure it could happen. You should wear a respirator. I have burnt my fingers a couple of times. Nothing serious at this time. In Canada it is cooler than Florida and if the temperature is low it is easer to handle, How serious was the Florida incident? Bill Ferguson Apiaries (Received Oct. 03/05) As we discussed before, I do not know of any report injuries caused by formic acid used to control Varroa mites Salut! Rhéal Lafrenière M.Sc. P.Ag. Business Development Specialist - Provincial Apiarist Manitoba Agriculture, Food and Rural Initiatives 204-545 University Cres. Winnipeg, Manitoba CANADA, R3T 5S6 PH. (204) 945-4825 FX. (204) 945-4327 Rlafrenier@gov.mb.ca -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 15:16:50 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: AHB takeovers & beekeeping pest history Hello All, Certainly AHb takeovers are common in Arizona as are bees with capensis like traits. Every year Dr. DeGloria Hoffman warns the industry but the warnings fall on deaf ears. The bee labs warned the industry about tracheal mites but the industry still lost half its commercial hives. My friends in other countries had a good laugh. The bee labs warned the industry about varroa mites and how to keep from losing hives but over half the U.S. beekeeping industry hives were again lost. The beekeeping industry best minds told the industry they needed to alternate varroa chemical treatments but was not done. We have been told since 1957 about AHB and the only method to control ( or at least until as Aaron says until all the bees are AHB). Why the panic now? The bee labs give excellent programs at meetings about contaminated brood comb and getting off the chemical treadmill and using IPm measures. Many beekeepers listen and then go back to the old ways. Sincerely, Bob Harrison -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 15:27:00 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: 2006 almond pollination Hello All, Rules have changed for 2006. Loads will be turned away for a single small hive beetle if the current rules are enforced. Eric Mussen's newsletter on the meeting of the California State Beekeepers assn.: http://entomology.ucdavis.edu/faculty/mussen/NovDec2005.pdf I have been on the road for a week and will be on the road for another three weeks. In Georgia now and will be leaving for Florida before long to check out the current bee problems. I doubt I will be around a computer after tomorrow for three weeks. Sincerely, Bob Harrison -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 14:08:17 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: A Successful Invader In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20060103090043.049e3ec0@msoexchvs1.gs.umt.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- Jerry Bromenshenk wrote: > > Answer, using marked bees dumped out along a road > about 1000 ft from a > commercial bee yard was clear. The 'lost' bees > found the beeyard almost > faster than the student could drive over. I wonder if by taking a few bees from your colonies when bee lining distant locations it would be a good way to speed up the the process. I'm not meaning to follow these bees, but use them as messengers to quickly notify nearby ferals where the reward is. Also, I'm looking for information about how to conduct a survey of feral colonies. Or links to surveys that were done. Anyting about feral honeybees would be great. Please send to my inbox naturebee@yahoo.com Best Regards, Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' My Site: http://www.biologicalbeekeeping.com Organic Bee Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Organicbeekeepers/ Feral Bee Project: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FeralBeeProject/ __________________________________ Yahoo! for Good - Make a difference this year. http://brand.yahoo.com/cybergivingweek2005/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 14:53:29 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: mark berninghausen Subject: Re: Cost of getting started In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Heuvelton and Dan Miller are 15 minutes drive from Ogdensburg, NY. I just thought that that info would help to pin point Miller's location better, perhaps. Mark Berninghausen Lloyd Spear wrote: If you are within driving distance of Watertown, NY there is an Amish guy Dan Miller, 5670B County Road 10, Heuvelton NY 13654. Foundation: Permadent, 605-345-3211 (South Dakota). --------------------------------- Yahoo! for Good - Make a difference this year. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 15:08:16 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Keeping hives free from AHB In-Reply-To: <9D95C2906FCCE04F836ECA17C4CE092103311EB6@UAEXCH.univ.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Aaron Morris wrote: I was left wondering what will be done if the day comes when there are only hot bees left, but if that'swhat the future holds I suspect the bigger problem will be finding locations, not finding bees. You can control hot bees by way of instrumental insemination of the queens, and frequent monitoring of your hives for aggresiveness. At least that is my humble opinion, and hope. I am looking into the costs of learning how to artificial inseminate, equipment and training, with the idea of possibly providing insemination services to my area beekeepers. They provide the virgin queens and the drones to service them, and I provide the insemination services. What do the rest of you think of this solution to the Africanization problem? Mike --------------------------------- Yahoo! Photos Ring in the New Year with Photo Calendars. Add photos, events, holidays, whatever. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 16:25:57 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: mark berninghausen Subject: Re: 2006 almond pollination In-Reply-To: <200601032028.k03KPtdv029403@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Is this like what happens on Interstate 95 when the guys at the scale house in Virginia let you go on and the guys in North Carolina don't. The people enforcing the regulations aren't in sinque? A friend of mine in a southern state which will remain nameless just got finished telling me that his broker talked with someone in CA in a position of authority and the broker was told that no trucks will be turned away for SHB. This topic will work itself out in time. Maybe not in time for you, but in time none the less. Mark Bob Harrison wrote: Hello All, Rules have changed for 2006. Loads will be turned away for a single small hive beetle if the current rules are enforced. --------------------------------- Yahoo! DSL Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 16:43:19 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: AHB takeovers & beekeeping pest history In-Reply-To: <200601032018.k03JQnMV026012@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bob writes: Certainly AHb takeovers are common in Arizona as are bees with capensis like traits. Every year Dr. DeGloria Hoffman warns the industry but the warnings fall on deaf ears. Reply: Well Bob, certainly in your assumption certainly says a lot of what concerning AHB so-called takeovers for actions honeybees have been doing for hundreds of years. But you are right that in Arizona are bees with capensis like traits, and that they too have been here all along, and documented as being here, even by the local bee lab, as we supplied the local stock that has always been here for testing... So in actualality, what is the fear? for the same bees we have are normal So Western Rock Mountain honeybees and have even been documented in So Calif; not that I haven't seen them in other beekeepers yards in most all states of the West and S. West. But the capenis like traits are old written about traits also and documented by our USGov as being present in all races/strains they looked at from Italian, to Amm, to carniolan, etc As for the fear factor to AHB doing normal requeening like other races seen by the likes of CC Miller and others early on....... Well, gotta keep reinventing the wheel to get funding I guess and put new twists on it.....what else can I say. Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________ Yahoo! DSL – Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 19:47:55 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dan&jan Subject: Re: Keeping hives free from AHB MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; reply-type=original; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I have heard that AHB queens will kill EHB queens. I hope this is not true. Any comments? Dan Veilleux in the mountains of NC zone 6a -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 17:07:01 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: A Successful Invader In-Reply-To: <200601031824.k03HwhmI021268@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Isis writes: This behaviour is exceedingly rare in European honey bees and exceedingly typical of Africans. Reply: I take it then you buy patented stock/queens then. Amazing so much has been bred out the past 90 years or so. But then they now have other problems also new since the inbreeding started. But as to a reliable indicator of so-called AHB in a given area...No, I would think not, especially, if the area has many beekeepers yet working with local stocks. As to what I would call so-called AHBs today........Well, it would seem any hot tempered bee today is called AHB regardless of coloration or other traits. Used to think they were scuts.....but nowadays seems to be agressive bees brought on by stress, medications/treatments that make bees sting, besides the breeding methods today that to me are not in tune with natural breeding our forefathers followed up to the early 1900s. And how do beekeepers relate to this.....well even here on this list it has been talked that to ID simply drive a commercial truck up and down the line in front of the hives to see what is aggressive!!! Yep, must be real AHBs...... To me, what they need to do is get off the dopes/meds, and get more naturally acclimitized honeybees not so inbred, etc. nor artificialy fed. Might make for happy, healthy, honeybees again!! Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________ Yahoo! DSL – Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 20:10:35 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: 2006 almond pollination Mark, Thanks for the reply! The loss to a Florida beekeeper (when load is turned around) is approx. $20,000 in trucking fees plus the loss of pollination fees. Loss of pollination to the almond grower. I figure at least a 10% loss of queens each way for shipment from Missouri which is three days. Six days from Florida (each way)could easily be 20% queens. I am a gambler and always have been but sending a semi load to California hoping the inspectors will not enforce a "new" 2006 regulation saying all loads with a single small hive beetle find will be turned around is a bit of a gamble. A better bet would be to put the load in the hands of a trucker which will drive around the inspection station. Stupid rules make outlaws of otherwise law abiding beekeepers! Hopefully Mark is right and the California inspection service will completely disregard the new 2006 "Q"status for small hive beetle! After all tens of thousands of hives have entered California with small hive beetle since 1998. Why the rule now California beekeepers? Almond growers & out of state beekeepers did not push for the new rule. I have never opened a hive in Florida the last two years and not seen a SHB or two. They also are easily seen under netting when the load is stopped for any length of time such as when the load is checked for fire ants. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Georgia mountains -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 17:21:03 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Keeping hives free from AHB In-Reply-To: <20060103230816.40127.qmail@web53411.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Mike: What do the rest of you think of this solution to the Africanization problem? Reply: Well, the day is coming concerning hot bees, but I don't think it will end like you think. For, hot/aggressive, stressed,overmedicated/drugged bees are very sick today, and being hit by Nature from all sides with pests, predators and various diseases to get rid of them,... leaving those of us avoiding the dopes and artificial feeds and with locally acclimitized bees plenty of bee locations/work in the future. Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________ Yahoo! DSL – Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 20:39:30 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: AHB takeovers On Tue, 3 Jan 2006 19:47:55 -0500, Dan&jan wrote: >I have heard that AHB queens will kill EHB queens. I hope this is not true. >Any comments? That's exactly what these people have been talking about. Nest usurpation means African bees come in, kill the queen and take over. That is just one of the ways that African bees become the prevailing bee where ever they go. This is fully documented in the papers that were cited.* see below Southern California beekeeper Tom Glenn gave up a lucrative queen business for this very reason. He said that he that he could not in good conscience continue to sell open mated queens. So, he switched over to selling inseminated queens. Of course, he has to sell them for much more, and the demand is small. So, if Africans come into your area, you cannot allow your hives to supersede, because the queens will surely mate with African drones. You can't raise your own queens, same reason. You won't want to collect swarms any more. Or else, do like some people do and just let the hives all go African. Dave de Jong has been suggesting this for years. Mexico is all African and it is still one of the world's major honey producers. Evidently there are beekeepers in Arizona who have done this as well. Dee writes: > As for the fear factor to AHB doing normal requeening like other races seen by the likes of CC Miller and others early on. reply: Queens sneaking into hives and taking over is NOT NORMAL requeening in North American or European hives. This is a characteristic of African bees and is fully documented in the papers cited. If it was a normal occurrence the researchers would not have cited it as a key pathway for African takeover. *THE AFRICAN HONEY BEE: Factors Contributing to a Successful Biological Invasion Stanley Scott Schneider, and others -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 17:39:40 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: A Successful Invader In-Reply-To: <20060103131039.74936.qmail@web53405.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Mike writes: Do/Did you know for certain that the hive being invaded was queenless? Reply: Mike, over the years I have worked with queenless colonies and requeening in large numbers, and when doing certain field management like taking up numbers with splits/divides you learn to note what you do, and what is happening. As for you being concerned about the cattle. Did you know that we keep our honeybees on cattle ranches in So. Arizona and have done so for decades.......and I am not talking small ranches by the way. The horses and cattle there graze right up to the fronts of the hives and all around the yards. But we don't put commercial bee yards up against water holes though or troughs. They are set back about 1/4 to 1/2 mile and we keep floats in the artificial water troughs with ranches help so the bees don't drown. Only problem we have is the cattle when newly released each spring knocking over hives thinking the newer (3 deeps or less) are salt blocks or something to rub heads on for ich. So we kid the ranchers about keeping killer cattle........for when knocked over the cattle/horses then try to eat the honey and pollen frames and the poor bees can starve or have to find shelter which is sad. Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________ Yahoo! DSL – Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 17:49:04 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: A Successful Invader In-Reply-To: <200601031225.k03CP4VP007528@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Peter writes: Supposedly there is a large feral population of African bees in Arizon,Texas and California and bees from all over the US are moved into these areas. That's what I was asking about. Reply: You say supposedly, that means you assume here then? I know the late State Agri Diretor Kelly made a decree on paper we are africaniced after we were all taught how to control same by gov. But what documentation on actual numbers says there is a large feral population by actual count other then hearsay? Can you be more specific? To admit to having africans then I guess Identification would have to be specific then to scuts for the so-called AHBs then like the Europeans do.......or am I wrong in assuming this? Do you know of any actual documented commercial outfits in Arizona hive by hive documented for large numbers of AHBs? Be specific please for there is a lot of hearsay on the market nowadays. Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper, Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________ Yahoo! DSL – Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 21:13:43 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Benson Subject: Re: A Successful Invader In-Reply-To: <20060104010701.14356.qmail@web51611.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dee Lusby wrote: >Reply: >I take it then you buy patented stock/queens then. > Who is selling patented bees? Keith -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 18:30:42 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: mark berninghausen Subject: Re: 2006 almond pollination In-Reply-To: <200601040110.k040YLK4013781@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I think that what I'm understanding from numerous sources is that the regulation is there but it won't be inforced. I'd hate to bet on it too. I don't know anyone who could stand the loss. I do know someone who went around like you say will be done. When he came out he was fined. I bet he's going again. I haven't heard. Many, if not most, beekeepers have had to do things illegal, over the last 10 or more years, to stay above water. Why should we be any different than any other industry? GROWERS, GET ON THE PHONE IF YOU WANT YOUR POLLINATION !!! Mark Bob Harrison wrote: Mark, Thanks for the reply! --------------------------------- Yahoo! DSL Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 19:56:55 +0500 Reply-To: "peterborst@persianarts.org" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "peterborst@persianarts.org" Subject: African Bees in Arizona MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Stan Schneider: We examined nest usurpation in an apiary of European colonies maintained ov= er a 2-year period in Tucson, AZ. The African bee arrived in Arizona in 199= 3 and has subsequently established large populations that contain few or no= European matrilines. The study apiary therefore provided an excellent oppo= rtunity to examine the impact of nest usurpation on managed European coloni= es that are increasingly challenged by a growing feral African population. Our apiary contained 76 five-frame nucleus hives, each with a =E2=80=9CGold= en Italian=E2=80=9D European colony. The Golden Italian line expresses the = light yellow coloration of cordovan bees. Each European queen was marked wi= th a dot of point on her thorax. The coloration patterns and paint marks al= lowed us to visually discriminate European host queens and workers from the= much darker colored African bees in the Tucson area. We observed a total of 32 takeovers during our 2-year study period, for a m= ean annual usurpation rate of 21.1 + 9.3%.=ED=A0=A0 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 19:15:44 +0500 Reply-To: "peterborst@persianarts.org" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "peterborst@persianarts.org" Subject: Successful Invaders MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Source for information on African bees in the Southwestern USA: THE AFRICAN HONEY BEE: Factors Contributing to a Successful Biological Invasion Written by: Stanley Scott Schneider, Gloria DeGrandi-Hoffman, and Deborah Roan Smith Published in: Annual Review of Entomology 49: 351-376. you can get a full copy of it for personal use at: Stan Schneider's home page http://www.bioweb.uncc.edu/Faculty/Schneider/ quoted material: The African bee arrived in south Texas in 1990 and in the intervening 13 years has spread throughout Texas, New Mexico, and Arizona and is currently colonizing southern California and the central valleys. As has occurred in Latin America, the African bee appears to be displacing feral European colonies (especially east European colonies) in the southwestern United States; The African bee is now spreading rapidly through the central valleys of California despite contact with large managed European populations. Every year more than a million colonies are moved throughout the United States for overwintering or to pollinate crops. If a colony loses its queen during transport and requeens itself in a region where there are African drones, it will become Africanized. Also, queenless colonies may be more susceptible to invasions by African swarms. Consequently, the transportation of colonies from areas with a feral African population back into apiaries in other parts of the United States could accelerate the spread of African patrilines and matrilines and move them past natural barriers that might otherwise slow or stop their progression. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 06:26:01 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: A Successful Invader MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There seems from the discussion to be no certain way of telling whether bees are of African descent (hot or not) or whether they are of one of the European races and crosses from them. I find this surprising as it is relatively easy to distinguish between the European races by looking at a range of physical and behavioral characteristics. The most convenient of these in many ways is the pattern of wing veins, although the more characteristics are examined the more certain the result will be. Freidrich Ruttner in his book Breeding Techniques and Selection for Breeding of the Honeybee goes into some detail on this but he is concerned mainly with mellifera, ligustica and carnica and doesn't provide the indices for scutellata. It might be a worthy project for a bee lab to extend Ruttner's work in this direction. With that tool people would have certainty rather than speculation to guide them. Chris -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 07:47:58 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: A Successful Invader In-Reply-To: <20060104014904.78149.qmail@web51614.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-3D54ACA > >Do you know of any actual documented commercial outfits in >Arizona... My new assistant is from Arizona. Worked for Dennis Arp. While not actually documented, I have no doubt that Dennis' outfit is Africanized. The stories are incredible. For instance... When finished with the yard for the day, and the truck is packed up, the last thing the beekeepers do is run up the road 50 yards, turn around, run back to the truck as fast as possible, open the door, jump in, slam the door, and watch the cloud of angry bees crash against the closed window in their attempt to skin you alive. Or...you can't even place your smoker on top of a hive. If you do, the bees pile out in clouds, looking for a fight. Not even the meanest EHB colony will do these things. And, I know you will argue with this, Dee, but i believe the results are clear enough. Of course if you admit the bees in Arizona are Africanized, then you would have to admit yours were too. Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.9/217 - Release Date: 12/30/2005 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 07:26:55 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: AHB takeovers In-Reply-To: <200601040139.k041dGUM016792@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-3D54ACA > Southern California beekeeper Tom Glenn...switched over to selling >inseminated queens. Of course, he has to sell them for much more, and the >demand is small. I see Tom has lowered his prices from $250/queen, to $100. I wonder what that's all about. Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.9/217 - Release Date: 12/30/2005 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 12:41:58 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chuck Norton Subject: Re: AHB takeovers Hello and Happy New Year to All, On Wed, 4 Jan Michael Palmer wrote: "I see Tom has lowered his prices from $250/queen, to $100. I wonder what that's all about." AFAIK Glenn Apiaries has taken quality assurance measures in their process to avoid AHB infiltration; and, at $100.00 plus shipping, you can find, IMHO, some of the best genetics in the country. I wonder if Charlie Harper will match Glenn's prices. His line releases are always ahead due to his USDA-ARS responsibilities, but I wonder why, He has Russians available only "until July 2006"? From his website, www.russianbreeder.com, the following is given: "In cooperation with the USDA Bee Lab in Baton Rouge, LA, we are pleased to offer the 2006 release of Russian breeder queens. There are (2) lines available, White Blue and White Orange. They are available now until July 2006. ..... ...Breeder queens can be shipped in battery box or picked up at location in 4-frame 6 1/4" nucs with her brood and bees at a price of $300.00 each." Cheers, Chuck Norton Reidsville, NC PS. Will the new attachment feature on BEE-L allow us to attach multi- gigabytes of high resolution hard drive space consuming photos, files, etc.? Aaron? -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 14:03:31 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Bogansky,Ronald J." Subject: More Thoughts on Africanized MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello and Happy New Year, Aaron wrote: "I was left wondering what will be done if the day comes when there are only hot bees left, but if that's what the future holds I suspect the bigger problem will be finding locations, not finding bees." Thank you Aaron, I was beginning to feel like Chicken Little. Losing good locations is my biggest fear. No one wants to associate with Killer Bees! It has been suggested, "just go African" as in Mexico. I don't live there and neither do my bees. We live and work around other folks who, if there was even a THREAT of Africanized bees, would vote to get rid of them and buy their honey from Mexico and really don't see any other value in bees. Just because I don't like that fact, doesn't make it go away. Mike Stoops suggested using only AI queens. I am not the expert here, and I am sure if I am incorrect it will be quickly pointed out, but I thought AI queens were only used to raise other queens and preserve the genetics. They do not work well in the environment of a production colony and are also cost prohibitive for that purpose. If you read back through the archives the topic of Africanized bees comes every so often. There was some concern when they finally made it to California, but by in large not too many folks got really excited, yet a large number of queens are raised and shipped from both TX and CA. Now that they are in Florida a lot of folks are sitting up and taking notice. For some of the newer beekeepers this may appear puzzling. But to the rest of us it is, or should be, quite obvious. Florida is a window into the future with respect to beekeeping. Even if a problem started somewhere else, once it hits Florida it explodes. Mites, hive beetle, resistant AFB all seem to use FL as their spring board to the rest of the country. All of these aforementioned problems only affected the beekeeper and were of little concern to the general public. Africanized bees are a completely different story. I am of the firm belief that we must do everything in our power to limit or prevent the spread of these bees. I stand by my original statement: If we don't stop the spread many reading this will no longer be keeping bees and a few will wish they never started. Ron Bogansky a.k.a. Chicken Little (I hope) Kutztown, PA P.S. I don't want to sound like I am picking on Florida, especially after last night's game (Orange Bowl). Although the scoreboard reflected otherwise, every kid on that field was a winner in Penn State Fan's eyes. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 20:35:32 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Isis Glass Subject: FABIS Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed How do the experts tell AHB from other bees? At the local level, a Fast Africanized Bee Identification System (FABIS) test can be performed. Starting with a sample of 50 to 100 bees, 10 bees are randomly sorted. The right wing is removed from each and mounted on microscope slides, and the average wing length is calculated. If the average wing length is over 9mm, the bees are European Honey Bees. If the average wing length is under 9mm, the bees are suspect Africanized Honey Bees. They are only suspect AHB because there are some Egyptian Honey Bees in the county that are a domesticated bee but are slightly smaller that the EHB. Some EHB are also slightly smaller than usual. The FABIS test is like the TB skin test. If the test is negative, you do not have TB. If the test is positive, you might have TB but need a more sophisticated test to be sure. If there is a need to know for certain that the sample is AHB or not, e.g., a multiple stinging incident or death, the sample is sent to the California Department of Food & Agriculture (CDFA) for further testing. They can perform either a DNA, or complete morphometrics test. The DNA test compares the DNA from the sample to known DNA standards to determine whether the bees are AHB or not. This test can be done on a small sample size but not if the bees were killed with certain pesticides. The chemicals used to kill the bees interfere with the test. Complete morphometrics can be used when the sample is contaminated with pesticides. Complete morphometrics is a series of very precise measurements of various parts of the bees in the sample. Some involve lengths of specific body parts, some involve the angles of wing veins. These measurements are then averaged and compared to a standard. A complete morphometrics test requires a larger sample size than the DNA test. Both tests are quite accurate and are considered the final word in AHB determination. _________________________________________________________________ On the road to retirement? Check out MSN Life Events for advice on how to get there! http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirement -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 15:13:37 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Charles Harper Subject: Re: AHB takeovers In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Russian breeders are overwintered and I am usually out by that time and working on the next years release, I will deliver queens after that date if booked ahead of that date. Also our main honey flow is ready to be harvested at that time. No request have been made for breeder queens at that time of the year. Most breeder queens are requested very early in the year I have 2 queens to ship Saturday. Harper's Honey Farm Charlie labeeman@russianbreeder.com Ph# 337 298 6261 Chuck Norton wrote: > He has Russians available >only "until July 2006"? > > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 21:49:26 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Isis Glass Subject: Re: morphometrics. In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed >Did not understand the benefits of morphometrics over DNA evaluation. Is >it cost? DNA tests are much more expensive and time consuming. FABIS is fast and reliable, and could be done by semi-skilled workers. This in from Los Angeles A sample of bees is collected from a hive and forewing length is measured under high magnification. The average wing lengths are then looked at to determine the probability of the sample being Africanized. Today approximately 80% of samples collected by the L.A. County West Vector Control District and tested through FABIS are found to be Africanized. Another size measurement that has been used to make preliminary identifications in the field is the length of ten cells of honey comb. This distance in EHB is usually greater than 5.0 cm and in AHB less than 4.9 cm. Several measurements must be made in areas of naturally drawn comb with no distortions. [Now, why would you WANT to raise smaller bees? That only makes testing more difficult and slower. Slower means more time for them to spread.] _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 17:01:39 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: test MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable testing 14.4 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 14:42:16 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Artisanal Honey In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20060104073451.012acae8@pop.together.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello, Please help settle a heated dispute on another list. ;>) I fear they are settling on a wrong definition, that would be a disaster. :>) How do you define 'Artisanal Honey'? Best Wishes, Joe __________________________________________ Yahoo! DSL – Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 15:07:03 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: FABIS In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Isis: How does this apply to the disclaimer written in FABIS that if the bees are different you your area then were the FABIS data was originated, then you need a different data base? How many have different data bases to fit their own states? and also done back then, as things have changed so much now don't think you could do seperate data base nowadays like asked for... Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 18:09:57 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: FABIS MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 04/01/06 20:38:16 GMT Standard Time, isis_glass@HOTMAIL.COM writes: <> So the morphometrics for AHB is known. It needs to be made available to beekeepers; if we can cope with the morphometrics for A.m.m. over here, surely US beekeepers can do the equivalent over there. Regards, Robert Brenchley -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 15:36:47 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: A Successful Invader In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20060104073451.012acae8@pop.together.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Mike writes: And, I know you will argue with this, Dee, but i believe the results are clear enough. Reply: Sure are......Dennis Arp is as Northern Arizona in the snow/mountains as you can get in Flagstaff, Arizona and between elevation and latitude not condusive to AHB in the natural for scuts, and knowing how he keeps bees (LC bees too) with various treatments.....can sure understand why his are stressed, sick and upset......I would be too. :>) Sorry don't you know anyone down in the heartland of Arizona or south, Yuma area? Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________ Yahoo! DSL – Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 15:45:17 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: A Successful Invader In-Reply-To: <285.3660087.30ed0ac9@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Chris writes: doesn't provide the indices for scutellata. It might be a worthy project for a bee lab to extend Ruttner's work in this direction. Reply: Excellent thought Chris....for if Dr Taylor in National Geographic early on said they were coming north breeding pure and taking over...... and the Eu races cannot dilute them with 16 to 1 mating of the queens, and the Europeans are looking for scuts......for AHB, this sounds logical...or is it too simple for solution? Respectfully submmitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________ Yahoo! DSL – Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 15:55:28 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: morphometrics. In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Isis writes: Another size measurement that has been used to make preliminary identifications in the field is the length of ten cells of honey comb. This distance in EHB is usually greater than 5.0 cm and in AHB less than 4.9 cm. Several measurements must be made in areas of naturally drawn comb with no distortions Reply: Careful, you now have a size loaded matter here with seemingly no reference to actual history in the upsizing of domestic honeybees from the 1890s or so on......someone forget history, and if going back smaller alleviates problems of parasitic mites and accompanying secondary diseases, then this makes the oversight even more upsetting.......Seems something wasn't factored right in the beginning, and/or archives researched right prior to publication IMPOV. Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________ Yahoo! DSL – Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 16:00:11 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Successful Invaders MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Peter: "the African bee appears to be displacing feral European colonies (especially east European colonies) in the southwestern United States; The African bee is now spreading rapidly through thecentral valleys of California despite contact with large managed European populations." Reply: concerning this quoted part by you: It appears? Yet, how can so-called AHB displace naturally sized naturally regressed ferals of which many are found the the South Western USA, as they do not appear to displace domestic SC bees kept that way? And doemestic EU or native bees kept on SC are excellent buffer, as sizing makes for a one on one situation for watering down AHB, if they do exist, coming all the way this far north, something LC doemestic just cannot do, and Sheppard I think published stuff on this also concerning the large domestic and natural not mixing. But that still leave the large open spaces of the SW with regressed naturally occurring domestic/native species IMPOV that for some reason has never been factored into the equation. Why? Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/oganicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________ Yahoo! DSL – Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 16:02:49 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: African Bees in Arizona MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit We observed a total of 32 takeovers during our 2-year study period, for a mean annual usurpation rate of 21.1 + 9.3%.í Reply: You actually observed swarms flying in that were different, or you noticed differently mated queens and offspring over that period? qualify please........especially with 5 frame nucs prone to superceding. Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OrganicBeekeepers/ __________________________________________ Yahoo! DSL – Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 20:03:20 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Artisanal Honey In-Reply-To: <20060104224216.9078.qmail@web34312.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-1568EF1 > 'Artisanal Honey'? I might call it Artisan honey. Then it might mean that it was produced by a crafts person in the art of beekeeping. But the other...not sure about that. Sounds like what my wife calls me when I keep receipts for dog food... Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.9/217 - Release Date: 12/30/2005 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 20:10:48 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: A Successful Invader In-Reply-To: <20060104233647.12413.qmail@web51601.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-1568EF1 > .Dennis Arp is as Northern Arizona in the >snow/mountains as you can get in Flagstaff, But he moves his bees all over, into the desert etc. He also winters down there. Funny...my assistant quoted 20% usurpation or african takeover in Dennis' bees, without hearing what Peter said about the 20% usurpation rate by africans. Also, what about all the overmedicated northern bees that can be worked in shirtsleeves? Why aren't they chasing us into the next county? Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.9/217 - Release Date: 12/30/2005 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 18:01:24 -0800 Reply-To: Tim Vaughan Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: A Successful Invader MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Also, what about all the overmedicated northern bees that can be worked in shirtsleeves? Why aren't they chasing us into the next county?" A good point, as is it's opposite: What about the totally wild bees I had in Bushmanland who'd never been a hundred miles within contact with meds, but were so mean that they killed my goats? -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 19:03:04 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: A Successful Invader In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20060104200511.02b526f0@pop.together.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Michael writes: Funny...my assistant quoted 20% usurpation or african takeover in Dennis' bees. Reply: With the migratory I can certainly see them requeening themselves or having help..........have always needed new queens in migratory work. Good candidates for those secondary swarms the strong ones throw out in case one from the truck missed getting it's queen. But I wouln't call that african takeover, just basic talk of bees requeening themselves as always. Show me where times have changed in migratory this way.......... Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________ Yahoo! DSL – Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 22:00:44 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: A Successful Invader In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20060104073451.012acae8@pop.together.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Michael Palmer wrote: And, I know you will argue with this, Dee, but i believe the results are clear enough. Of course if you admit the bees in Arizona are Africanized, then you would have to admit yours were too. Mike I don't know the situation with Dee, but the possibility does exist that her location(s) is/are such that they are isolated enough that the AHB hasn't hit her area yet. Certainly, from all accounts, she "will" know when the AHB hits her apiaries. She won't be going out to her hives in just a veil and light clothing. Mike in southern Alabama --------------------------------- Yahoo! Photos Ring in the New Year with Photo Calendars. Add photos, events, holidays, whatever. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 23:05:57 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: A Successful Invader In-Reply-To: <20060105060044.7457.qmail@web53403.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Mike writes: She won't be going out to her hives in just a veil and light clothing. Reply: Yep, half bee suit of light nylon is most I will ever wear.But for AHBs supposedly in our area........Did you know that in the first years of finding them, coincidently the swarms found and documented as so-called AHBs, were found next to our SC apiaries or friends of ours with SC apiaries also.Why not by LC apiaries? This can be checked out too by the way and you are welcome to.... Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________ Yahoo! DSL – Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 07:30:59 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kathy Cox Subject: Re: FABIS MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Isis, That was very interesting. Thank you for sharing it. -- Kathy Cox Bloomfield Bees & Bouquets Sebastopol 707-823-2804 -------------- Original message -------------- From: Isis Glass > How do the experts tell AHB from other bees? > > At the local level, a Fast Africanized Bee Identification System (FABIS) > test can be performed. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 05:46:01 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: A Successful Invader MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit So what are the Cubital Index and Discoidal Shift for Scutellata? Chris -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 12:25:19 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Isis Glass Subject: So-Called Africans Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed quote: the swarms found and documented as so-called AHBs, were found next to our SC apiaries Ms. Dee Lusby, In the past few days you have used the phrase "so-called AHBs" many times. I sincerely believe that you owe this group an explanation. We, who do not live in a completely Africanized state, like AZ, are still hoping to avoid owning this type of bee. You acknowledge that the "so-called AHB's" are in your area and have been for over a decade. What is a "so-called AHB"? How do YOU tell them apart from other bees? What kind of bees do you have and how do they differ from the other bees in your area? If one reads carefully through the papers that were cited, one would have to conclude that it would be nearly impossible to keep bees in Southern AZ without having them become Africanized. If it is possible to prevent this from occurring, you should explain how it is done in a clear way so that others could profit from your experience. If "so-called AHBs" are not Africanized bees, what are they? Ms. Isis Glass _________________________________________________________________ Don’t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 08:03:46 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: A Successful Invader In-Reply-To: <20060105030304.14658.qmail@web51614.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-51EF1D84 > But I wouln't call >that african takeover... I would, because it is. It's happening, and it's documented. Just because you cast a blind eye, doesn't mean it isn't happening. IE...your SC bees work smaller flowers of medicinal plants than LC bees can't, so your bees don't have AFB, or your SC bees aren't usurped by AHB because they are SC bees. You make these claims, and when questioned, make up words and unsubstantiated scenarios to back up your agenda...and you do have one in my opinion. And then, you demand documentation from others who would disagree with that agenda, when you can't provide documentation yourself. And that's why every discussion with you, Dee, turns into an argument. One doesn't need documentation to know that a brick wall isn't a Canary. A Rose by any other name is still a Rose. Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.9/217 - Release Date: 12/30/2005 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 09:21:00 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dan&jan Subject: Re: A Successful Invader MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; reply-type=response; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit 20%/year---does that mean that in 5-8 years almost all the colonies will be AHB. Maybe even less as AHB colonies will put more pressure on the remaining hives-would 4-6 years be a better number? Dan Veilleux in the mountains of NC zone 6a -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 07:52:06 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: A Successful Invader In-Reply-To: <000f01c61203$413063d0$6401a8c0@DanJan> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dan writes: 20%/year---does that mean that in 5-8 years almost all the colonies will be AHB. Reply: No, they will be SC acclimitized hives, as the LC hives are in trouble from parasitic mites and accompanying secondary diseases, and their artificial platform of largeness is falling apart now........So what is so-called africanization? Why are so many afraid of going back to a natural system of beekeeping and following the bees? respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________ Yahoo! DSL – Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 07:56:26 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: A Successful Invader In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20060105074554.03933900@pop.together.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Mike writes: And then, you demand documentation from others who would disagree with that agenda, when you can't provide documentation yourself. Reply: I am only now demanding what others are demanding of me Mike, and besides, you are free to come and see for yourself like anyone else.......no one is stopping you from coming to see, especially if gov/scientists don't want to knowingly know the knowing by actually seeing. You see I got physical proof........for what I say about our bees being healthy, and not hot or other...... What do you have that is annoying you????? Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________ Yahoo! DSL – Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 08:11:11 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: So-Called Africans In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Isis writes: How do YOU tell them apart from other bees? What kind of bees do you have and how do they differ from the other bees in your area? Reply: Well, even the gov doing testing lump them all together and cannot tell them apart by sight, they see to use aggressiveness and our bees are happy, healthy bees, and real nice to work. Always have been, Ive never seen really hot bees in this area, though you would think so..........and in instances reported it was people posioning them, or squirting water on them or burning them or something stupid to get something going, but then that too is normal in other places. contining: If one reads carefully through the papers that were cited, one would have to conclude that Reply: Yes maybe one would, then you must consider who is writing the papers and how they work bees too and then maybe visit the area to see if it is true......for what is written doesn't seem to match what locals are keeping, and if going to odd spots to see things does, this then means what? or if putting as many hot bees in one spot does then, then what is being artificially created, and by whom........and for what purpose. Heck, as far as I know, only so-called AHBs are only occurring in areas of SC bees being kept in volume and numbers growing while the LC die back now......due to maladies. continuing: If it is possible to prevent this from occurring, you should explain Reply: But I have.......you simply follow the bees needs and work with a natural system on SC. Continuing: If "so-called AHBs" are not Africanized bees, what are they? Reply: Well seeing something different and then saying african and lumping all coloration/traits of SC into the equation I think was a wrong play that is bringing the roosters home to roost. The long-term shall indeed be interesting, especially since bees like other animals break out by race/strain by latitude and altitude and I don't think that man can change that very much. Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________ Yahoo! DSL – Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 09:32:57 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: varroa screens -- specifications and sources Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed All We're developing a new product that will incorporate a varroa screen. I'm looking for sources of screening materials, want to identify the best product, looking worldwide. I'd like some input on the following questions: 1) wire spacing or mesh size. Obviously, too large, difficult for bees, too small, mites don't fall through. We've seen 8 wires per inch, other recommendations. Comments on best spacing? Are there screens that don't use wires (e.g. plastic mesh?) 2) screen materials, availability and recommendations, we've seen: Galvanized wire - cheap Stainless wire - pricey Plastic coated wire - can't flame to remove wax, propolis Are there other options? 3) suppliers -- who do you recommend, please provide contact information. Our goal is to provide the best quality for a reasonable price. The varroa screen will be part of a multi-purpose device that will be designed for very long term use. Thanks Jerry J.J. Bromenshenk CEO Bee Alert Technology, Inc. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 17:21:27 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: A Successful Invader Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>...and watch the cloud of angry bees crash against the closed window in their attempt to skin you alive. Anyone know if spraying oneself with (any) insect repellent would work to lessen the overly defensive bees? Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 19:08:46 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Isis Glass Subject: So-Called Africans Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed I am sorry if this topic is getting tedious. I was hoping to get a straight answer on this. >How do YOU tell them apart from other bees? What kind of bees do you have >and how do they differ from the other bees in your area? >Well, even the gov doing testing lump them all together and cannot tell >them apart by sight With this statement you seem to be saying that "the government" considers your bees and the other Africanized bees to be the same. They cannot be separated by sight. And since your bees are all small, they cannot be separated from Africanized bees by size. So, how do you know they are NOT African bees? >If one reads carefully through the papers that were cited, one would have >to conclude that that it would be nearly impossible to keep bees in >Southern AZ without having them become Africanized. >Yes maybe one would, then you must consider who is writing the papers You lost me here. Are we supposed to reject the work of Stanley Schneider, Gloria DeGrandi-Hoffman, Deborah Roan Smith, Anita Collins, W. S. Sheppard, etc. -- all respected experts in the field of honey bee genetics? * No one doubts your experience. You have been around AHB for something like 15 years. Why do you call them "so-called African bees"? _________________________________________________________________ FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar – get it now! http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 19:18:47 +0000 Reply-To: pencaemawr@ntlworld.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Pencaemawr Subject: Re: varroa screens -- specifications and sources In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20060105092736.02e46c48@mso.umt.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jerry Bromenshenk wrote: > All > > We're developing a new product that will incorporate a varroa screen. > I'm looking for sources of screening materials, want to identify the > best product, looking worldwide. Galvanised expanded mesh from www.expandedmetalcompany.co.uk Regards, John Burgess -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 14:20:21 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Apiguard MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit This just in: Vita (Europe) combats USA pollination crisis and opens up USA market for its product range 5 January 2006 Honeybee health and mite control specialist, Vita (Europe) Ltd, has just received US approval to export Apiguard®, a treatment key to alleviating the developing pollination crisis across the USA Following this registration of Apiguard with the USA Environmental Protection Agency, use of the product can begin in individual States once they individually approve Apiguard. Apiguard will be distributed by Dadant & Sons Inc in the USA. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 12:04:56 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: A Successful Invader In-Reply-To: <20060105.092145.1485.235852@webmail34.nyc.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Waldemar: >>...and watch the cloud of angry bees crash against the closed window in their attempt to skin you alive. Reply: You sure this isn't just sloppy beekeeping? I certainly haven't seen this, though I have come back to a vehicle I left the door open and had bees inside that wanted to get out, but driving off they are normally done in a few hundred feet or so. Sure you don't need to go to a field beekeeping school on how to be around honeybees so you don't get them so mad? Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________ Yahoo! DSL – Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 13:07:27 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: Artisanal Honey In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20060104195924.012aae60@pop.together.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- Michael Palmer wrote: > > 'Artisanal Honey'? > I might call it Artisan honey. Then it might mean > that it was produced by a > crafts person in the art of beekeeping.... Hi Mke, Thanks for responding. Some beeks are using the term to describe high quality, floral honey of specific source, perhaps to distinguish this unique floral honey from imported brands. Artisanal honey seems to be popular in upscale cooking and restaurants, and Food and wine magazine has predicted that the future trend is for more recipes to call for Artisanal honey. There’s even Artisanal cheese, Artisanal beef and Artisanal fishing! ;>) My question is,,, as any good business might adjust to trends and competitors,,, Regardless if the definition doesn’t quite fit the literal use of the word. Do you begin to label some of your floral honey as Artisanal honey in preparation for this trend, and gain an early advantage in this emerging market nitch? Or do you follow the trend and change later, and let the competitors take the lead? Few Examples of other beeks using the term. -----> "Anyone who hasn't tasted an artisanal honey is in for a treat. Small apiaries, such as the 40-hive Santa Cruz Mountain Honey from Whitethorn, Tunitas Creek Apiaries in Stanford, and Marshall's Farm in American Canyon, keep their hives in specific locations so their bees can produce specific varietals of honey. The honeys are then separately packed and minimally processed to ensure that the final product retains its unique flavor complexities." http://makeashorterlink.com/?L1F923B6C ---> "It's easy to be captivated by a jar of artisanal honey or jam. The flavors are not what you might expect... some of the honeys are both bitter and sweet and others have an intense earthiness. Some of the honeys are from the pollen of many recognizable flowering plants such as chestnut, lavender or orange blossom while others are from the pollen of plants that are less known such as arbutus or linden. All of the honeys have their own distinct aroma..." http://formaggio-kitchen.com/shop/index.php/cPath/22 -----> Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' My Site: http://www.biologicalbeekeeping.com Organic Bee Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Organicbeekeepers/ Feral Bee Project: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FeralBeeProject/ __________________________________________ Yahoo! DSL – Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 22:32:28 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: A Successful Invader Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dee, The following was not my quote. I had quoted Mike's assistant only to ask if an insect repellent of any sort could lessen the attack of overly defensive bees. >>Waldemar: >>...and watch the cloud of angry bees crash against the closed window in their attempt to skin you alive. In my [by-stander] opinion, you discount too much the reported increase in overly defensive bees in the south-west. You may not see it yourself since you say you select for gentleness. It's good to be a realist but it's best not to trivialize the potential danger - one day your own life may be in danger. My [limited] experience with overmedicated European bees has been that they are typically gutless, weak, and generally seem disoriented - NOT overly defensive. >>Sure you don't need to go to a field beekeeping school on how to be around honeybees so you don't get them so mad? I am not sure if this is an insult or an innocent question... :) I'll take it as a question. Since this experience was not my own, I'll keep on believing that my beekeeping skills are moderately adequate though... since my bees don't seem to get very mad... ;-) Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 15:42:11 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: AFB ~ Tolerance Mechanisms in Honeybees In-Reply-To: <20051126183341.32427.qmail@web34307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello All, The AFB tolerance mechanisms in honeybees are one of the most fascinating aspects in honeybee disease tolerance, IMO more so than the Varroa issue. But I’m perplexed on how is one to select for AFB tolerance in their bees if the commonwealth has no tolerance for AFB in honeybee colonies? Anyhow, working around this problem, I am looking at the moment 'specifically' at the AFB resistance by action of the honey stopper. In the honeybees, AFB spores are removed from food suspension by action of the honey stopper. Please correct me if I am mistaken, AFB spores range in size from 2.5 to 5 microns, and I assume the honey stoppers purpose is to remove contaminates from the honey. Now, in a hypothetical experiment: In your opinion, If colored particle matter of 3 microns (lets say blue) was mixed in a sugared solution and fed to honeybees. Would you expect the processed solution stored in cells to show up as a less concentrated blue color in the colonies that have a highly developed AFB tolerance in the honey stopper, and having the capability to filter out the contaminate? Or is the action in the honeystopper AFB spore specific? Very Best Regards, Joe Waggle PA __________________________________________ Yahoo! DSL – Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 15:57:14 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Medhat Nasr, Ph. D." Subject: Honey Bee Research Morphometrics/DNA Comments: To: Isis Glass MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Dear Isis, I read with interest this discussion. It might shed some lights on the type of bees that is on the centre of this discussion, if you send samples for testing for Africanization. There is a free service available for testing bees for Africanization using morphmetrics. Please check this website: www.ars.usda.gov/research/docshtm?docid=11053 If further testing using DNA will be needed, you can contact Dr. Eric Mussen at University of California, Davis (ecmussen@ucdaiv.edu). He might be able to arrange for the DNA testing at California Department of Agriculture where they do routinely this DNA test for Africanization. Medhat Medhat Nasr, Ph. D. Provincial Apiculturist Crop Diversification Centre North 17507 Fort Road Edmonton, AB, Canada T5Y 6H3 Tel: (780) 415-2314 Fax: (780) 422-6096 Mailto:medhat.nasr@gov.ab.ca -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 17:10:29 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: A Successful Invader In-Reply-To: <20060105200456.82060.qmail@web51613.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dee Lusby wrote: > You sure this isn't just sloppy beekeeping? (Snip) > > Sure you don't need to go to a field beekeeping school on > how to be around honeybees so you don't get them so mad? Patronizing statement, since many of us have visited apiaries or had bees that were hot. When the colonies were re-queened the problem disappeared. I am slowly coming to the conclusion that, like EHB, AHB can vary in temperament. There may even be different strains of AHB (as there are with EHB such as Italian, Carneolean...), so some are manageable and some are not. If so, you could breed for a manageable strain or you may start with one, which would explain a lot of what may be happening in AZ. This is just conjecture. But it does seem to fit the facts. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 16:28:40 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Benson Subject: Re: A Successful Invader MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline ----- Original Message ----- From: Dee Lusby > > Reply: > You sure this isn't just sloppy beekeeping? > Sure you don't need to go to a field beekeeping school on > how to be around honeybees so you don't get them so mad? I should think one would take the numerous descriptions (both annecdotal and scientifically quantifiable) of the aggression of AHB more seriously, and not try to pass this off as sloppy beekeeping. It is insulting and denies the facts. Keith -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 19:59:16 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: reject this post MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable reject this post -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 20:28:49 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: reject this post MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi folks, =20 The implementation of Listserv 14.4 was not seamless. It changed the = manner in which Moderation is implemented. The short of it was that = BEE-L was totally unmoderated from yesterday morning until about 2PM = this afternoon; anything submitted was distributed. Fot the most part = that was fine. I may had witheld approval on two or 3 posts (I imagine = it's obvious which ones), but for the part things were fine. My = previous two posts titled: "Testing" and "Reject this post" were me = attempting to figure out the new software. =20 While sleuthing the problem in the LISTSERV LIST OWNERS' manual, I came = across the following and thought, "Gee, if folks would adhere to this = passage, there'd be no need for moderators!" Well, that and excessive = quoting. Anyway, I thought I'd include the passage for those who may be = brave (or bored) enough to read it. The passage is general to all = listserv lists. As always, the fine tuning for the desired caliber of = BEE-L is there for all to read at: = http://honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm =20 Cheers and Happy New Year! Aaron =20 6.9. Social conventions (netiquette) =20 Like so many other things, network users tend to expend a great deal of = virtual gunpowder about the subject of etiquette on the network = (otherwise known as netiquette). Part of the culture of the network is = built on the fact that an individual user can put forward any face he or = she cares to present. Thus over time, the network has evolved various = sets of rules that attempt to govern conduct. To avoid taking up a great = deal of space arguing the merits of differing systems of netiquette, the = following general pointers that should be accepted by most users are = offered for the convenience of the list owner. =20 Recognize and Accept Cultural and Linguistic Differences =20 The Internet is international, and while English is generally accepted = as the common language of the network, list owners and list subscribers = cannot afford to take the position that everyone on the Internet = understands English well. In a medium that is invariably connected to = language, special understanding is required to deal with questions or = statements from people for whom English is not the primary tongue. Often = today (at least in the US) a person's first sustained interaction with = others on an international basis is via the Internet. It is imperative = that this interaction be on the highest level of cordiality and respect = from the outset in order for all concerned to benefit. =20 Additionally, care should be taken when using local idiom and slang. A = common word or phrase used by Americans in everyday speech, for = instance, might be taken as profanity or insult by those in other = English-speaking countries, and may not be understood at all by = non-native speakers of English. When a list has a high international = readership, it is probably best to avoid non-standard English so as to = provide the clearest and least-objectionable exchange of ideas. =20 Private Mail Should Dictate Private Responses =20 If someone on a mailing list has sent a private message to you (i.e., = not to the list at large) and you have lost that person's address but = want to respond, do not post private mail to the list. The REVIEW = command will give you a copy of the list membership that you can search = for the person's address. If this approach does not work, contact the = local postmaster or the list owner for help. =20 Flaming is (Usually) Inappropriate =20 Flames (insults) belong in private mail, if they belong in mail at all. = Discussions will often result in disagreements. Rebuttals to another = person's opinions or beliefs should always be made in a rational, = logical and mature manner, whether they are made publicly or privately. = What is a flame can range from the obvious (ranting and raving, abusive = comments, etc.) to the not-so-obvious (comments about how many "newbies" = seem to be on the list these days, "RTFM!" exhortations, etc.). =20 Foul Language =20 Subscribers should refrain from abusive or derogatory language that = might be considered questionable by even the most liberal and = open-minded of networkers. If you wouldn't say it in front of your = mother, don't say it in electronic mail. =20 Unsolicited Advertising and Chain Letters =20 Most of these are contrary to appropriate use policies governing the use = of the poster's Internet access provider. Not only that, they are = annoying and (in the case of chain letters) often illegal. See Section = 6.10 on the subject of "spamming" for more details. =20 Other Disruptive or Abusive Behavior =20 Self-explanatory. It is rarely possible to catalog all forms of = anti-social network behavior. Be sure that you as a list owner cover as = many bases as you think necessary when promulgating a code of netiquette = for your list. Then - be sure to adhere to it yourself. =20 =20 6.11. Appropriate use policies: considerations =20 As a list owner, it is important that you take into consideration any = appropriate use policies that might apply to your list. For instance, if = your list is hosted by an educational site that has a policy restricting = mail with commercial content from being sent out by its users, your list = will technically be in violation of that policy if it distributes mail = from users advertising commercial services. You would be well advised to = request a copy of the appropriate use policy (if any) from your host = site and make sure that your subscribers are aware of it by including = pertinent sections in your WELCOME file and/or your administrative = postings. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 16:59:12 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: mark berninghausen Subject: A question pertaining to crystalizing honey. Comments: To: Beekeepers Organic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Does honey crystallize better at -40 degrees F or -40 degrees C ? --------------------------------- Yahoo! DSL Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 17:07:26 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: mark berninghausen Subject: Re: AFB ~ Tolerance Mechanisms in Honeybees In-Reply-To: <20060105234211.58087.qmail@web34308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit IMHO a very good detailed question of which I have no idea. I sure hope someone has a better answer than I. Mark "J. Waggle" wrote: Hello All, The AFB tolerance mechanisms in honeybees are one of the most fascinating aspects in honeybee disease tolerance, IMO more so than the Varroa issue. But I’m perplexed on how is one to select for AFB tolerance in their bees if the commonwealth has no tolerance for AFB in honeybee colonies? Anyhow, working around this problem, I am looking at the moment 'specifically' at the AFB resistance by action of the honey stopper. In the honeybees, AFB spores are removed from food suspension by action of the honey stopper. Please correct me if I am mistaken, AFB spores range in size from 2.5 to 5 microns, and I assume the honey stoppers purpose is to remove contaminates from the honey. Now, in a hypothetical experiment: In your opinion, If colored particle matter of 3 microns (lets say blue) was mixed in a sugared solution and fed to honeybees. Would you expect the processed solution stored in cells to show up as a less concentrated blue color in the colonies that have a highly developed AFB tolerance in the honey stopper, and having the capability to filter out the contaminate? Or is the action in the honeystopper AFB spore specific? Very Best Regards, Joe Waggle PA __________________________________________ Yahoo! DSL – Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- --------------------------------- Yahoo! Photos Ring in the New Year with Photo Calendars. Add photos, events, holidays, whatever. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 20:35:45 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: Apiguard In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 02:20 PM 1/5/2006, you wrote: >Vita (Europe) combats USA pollination crisis and opens up USA market for its >product range More details can be read at http://www.honeyrunapiaries.com/25.87.0.0.1.0.phtml It looks like even though the US EPA has approved it, each state must individually approve as well. Anyone know if this means each state must apply for a section 18 Emergency exception? If so it could be awhile before its available in many states. -Tim -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 20:25:52 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Artisanal Honey In-Reply-To: <20060105210727.23049.qmail@web34306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-46C053D0 > Do you begin to label some of your floral honey as >Artisanal... The early bird gets the worm. I would say if you can develop a market for your varietal honeys, and feel you need to call them Artis..whatever, then you should. I've just never heard the term. I do know, that in Burlington, there are bakeries that advertise their breads as "Artisan Bread." Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.13/221 - Release Date: 1/4/2006 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 19:56:38 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Charles Harper Subject: Re: A question pertaining to crystalizing honey. In-Reply-To: <20060106005912.97471.qmail@web32112.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Honey usually will not crystallize at those low temps the best range is +40 to +60 degrees F. Harper's Honey Farm Charlie labeeman@russianbreeder.com Ph# 337 298 6261 > > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 19:45:01 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Adrian M. Wenner" Subject: Re: A question pertaining to crystalizing honey. In-Reply-To: <20060106005912.97471.qmail@web32112.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v622) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Jan 5, 2006, at 4:59 PM, mark berninghausen wrote: > Does honey crystallize better at -40 degrees F or -40 degrees C ? Not that it matters for crystallization, but those two temperatures are the same at that mark. Adrian -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 22:11:30 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: David Jeffries Subject: Re: A question pertaining to crystalizing honey. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Does honey crystallize better at -40 degrees F or -40 degrees C ? These temperatures are the same. This is the point at which the two scales cross. Dave Jeffries -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 00:05:48 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: A question pertaining to crystalizing honey. In-Reply-To: <20060106005912.97471.qmail@web32112.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 07:59 PM 1/5/2006, you wrote: >Does honey crystallize better at -40 degrees F or -40 degrees C ? Trick question, -40F is the same as -40C. In any case freezing temperatures can virtually prevent crystallization. The best temperatures for causing crystallization are between 40-60 degrees as already stated. In the late summer when trying to make creamed honey the temperatures are typically too warm to encourage crystallization and I don't have a good way to control the temperature. But I have found putting the honey in the refrigerator during the day and taking it out during the night (as well as using a good amount of seed honey) speeds things up considerably. I can make 3 buckets at a time by rotating them every 8 hours. Once fall is here though creamed honey is much easier to make. I just leave it in the garage. -Tim -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 21:20:57 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: A Successful Invader In-Reply-To: <2ddae92dd7b4.2dd7b42ddae9@southeast.rr.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Keith writes: I should think one would take the numerous descriptions (both annecdotal and scientifically quantifiable) of the aggression of AHB more seriously, Reply: I am sorry to offend you, but we now keep about 900 +/- colonies, and in working them back up, just have not seen what you write as numerous descriptions of aggression, with our bees, in all these years. I do hear of new locals having problems, but then in working with them that ask, the problems clear up as just basicly learning what to do in the field, and how to open and go thru hives, and we are talking 3/4/5 deeps here. Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OrganicBeekeepers/ __________________________________________ Yahoo! DSL – Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 21:32:16 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: So-Called Africans In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Isis writes: Why do you call them "so-called African bees"? Reply: In all these years, I have never seen them hot. They are like they always have been, easy to work. Also, if one mating of the queen makes them africanized as was put to us long ago, and the majority of the matings of each queen are not africanized or scuts, why cannot this be seen and broken out, instead of lumping all the colorations into one pot? Somehow the picture painted doesn't fit what we are working and no one has ever been able to tell us why? Besides the fact we were told all that had to be seen was something different.......yet, we have seen nothing different.......also, one more thing different with us. We are self-contained with our bees and have been for decades. So is there something to working with local stocks being overlooked? Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers __________________________________________ Yahoo! DSL – Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 12:01:11 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Andrew Johnston Subject: Mesh screens + Apiguard MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Currently most beekeepers in the UK use Epoxy Resin Coated mesh, = developed in Germany I believe in order to resist the corrosive effects = of Formic acid? My experience with Apiguard in the UK is that the efficacy is quite = variable within one apiary, it is very dependant on ambient temperature = and also colony size and condition. 65% to 95% effective monitoring is a necessity. Also with resistance creeping across the = country Apistan in my part of the country is about the same Regards Andy Johnston -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 13:03:20 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: Mesh screens + Apiguard In-Reply-To: <002c01c612b9$119eb020$878ff8d4@ajohnston> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed In message <002c01c612b9$119eb020$878ff8d4@ajohnston>, Andrew Johnston writes >Currently most beekeepers in the UK use Epoxy Resin Coated mesh, >developed in Germany I believe in order to resist the corrosive effects >of Formic acid? If you buy from Thornes that is likely what you will have, but actually I have seen much more stainless steel mesh in use. OK its quite expensive, but the resin coated is not really much cheaper. I know of at least 1000 colonies in this part of the country (E. Scotland) with stainless mesh on the floors, and no one I know uses the resin coated from choice, just what you get if you buy ready made or pre cut from one particular source. The stainless is available by the roll from United Wire, and I know several people who just buy a whole roll and use it over a period. We can put mesh on the floors of about 300 hives with one large roll, and the amount to do one floor costs about GBP 1.50......... USD 2.60 or so. -- Murray McGregor -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 07:55:45 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: George Fergusson Subject: Re: Artisanal Honey In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20060105202022.02b338f0@pop.together.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 08:25 PM 1/5/06 -0500, you wrote: >> Do you begin to label some of your floral honey as >>Artisanal... > Normally I'm in favor of just about anything that sells more honey at a higher price short of doing so at gunpoint, but I for one will avoid the use of this term when I manage to actually obtain some honey to sell. It's use is problematic and it's meaning is unclear. First, how is it pronounced? Like "medicinal", or the other way? Second, what exactly does it mean? I'm a real fan of using simple, clear, and concise language with well-understood meaning rather than vague flowery terms that ordinary people, like me, understand completely. It appears from searching a variety of online dictionaries (most of which are of a culinary nature) that the simplist definition of artisanal seems to be "made by hand in small quantities." This may apply to my honey operation in so far as "small quantities" is concerned, but techincally my bees make the honey and I just rob it. Truth in advertising aside, I just can't, in all honesty, call my honey "artisanal honey" with a straight face and a clear conscience. I just can't do it. I'll use terms like pure, natural, local, unprocessed, unfiltered and raw. If using "artisanal" sells more honey for you however, great. George Fergusson Whitefield Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 10:31:23 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Artisanal Honey In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20060106075545.0091ab60@pop.gwi.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Interesting discussion. Since I am retired Navy, I guess I could call my honey, arsenal honey :) I think the use of the artisanal is fine. All it does is move the character of the honey from "common" to uncommon. The general, approved use of the word is the difference between skilled and unskilled workers. Hence, the outcome may be of higher quality, "may" being the operative word. You could argue that it takes more skill to get varietal honey even if the truth is more in colony placement rather than any skill of the beekeeper or the bees. But if it brings in a few more bucks, that is fine. It is a harmless word (unlike organic) that makes some people add attributes that most of us will smile at. But, like wine, it is all in the taste, and if they taste something that we do not, fine. They are happy and we are happy. The truth is that we sell "blueberry" and other honey that may be blueberry in part or in whole, since there is no way we can direct our bees to the pollination source. Even in a blueberry field, the lot next to it may have tempting nectar that easily diverts many bees. But we beekeepers tried to make it as pure as possible, just our bees are not as ethical and follow directions poorly. Obviously, not artisans. Bill's Wildflower Artisanal Honey. Love it. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 17:14:30 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jeffrey Hamelman Subject: Re: Artisanal Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > How do you define 'Artisanal Honey'? > Bricklayers, potters, coopers, basket makers, bakers--these are trades where the maker, under certain circumstances, can be an artisan. The word "artisan" suggests handwork, suggests human involvement in the steps of production, and specifically describes humans (rather than machines). Honey, therefore, cannot be artisan. Whether or not the producer can be is open to discussion. > Yahoo! DSL - Something to write home about. > Just $16.99/mo. or less. > dsl.yahoo.com > > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 10:57:22 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: SABA Seminar at UAlbany MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Saturday March 25, 9:00 A.M. - 4:30 P.M. In Lecture Center One, UAlbany Uptown Campus, Washington Ave., Albany NY (Same place as in 2003, 2004, 2005). Speakers and Topics: Jim Bobb - An Overview of Varroa Mite Control Measures Larry Connor - Achieving Drone Saturation for Small-scale Queen Production Tony Jadczak - Recognizing and Dealing with Africanized Honey Bees & Identifying and Treating Diseases Aaron Morris - Producing Award-Winning Comb Honey Robert Sheahan - Mead-Making for Everyone Presentations run consecutively. Raffles follow. Cost: $25 per person, or $40 per couple. Includes refreshment breaks. (Lunch is available nearby.) Walk-ins are welcome. (Add $5 per walk-in to regular cost.) Friday night Dinner: For the past few years, SABA has arranged for a get-together dinner at a nearby restaurant the night before the seminar. Speakers usually attend. (Mark your registration and send deposit.) Hotel: Marriott Fairfield (518-435-1800) #1383 Washington Ave., Albany, NY Call by Feb. 24 and mention "Beekeepers" to get special rate of $84 + taxes for room with 2 queen size beds. Hotel has a swimming pool and complimentary Continental breakfast. Other hotel options on Washington Ave. include Red Carpet @ $44.95. Further details: Anne Frey, SABA@capital.net -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 15:55:28 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Isis Glass Subject: Re: More Thoughts on Africanized Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Ron writes: No one wants to associate with Killer Bees! It has been suggested, "just go African" as in Mexico. Comment: I wouldn't say no one. This guy is doing it, in Arizona: WILD KILLER BEE HONEY COMB This is the rarest honey comb available! Just cut off a piece and eat it. This is where honey comes from. Packaged in 8 oz. square container. Wild Killer Bee Honey Comb RARE WILD COMB 8 OZ. $10.00 http://www.killerbeeguy.com/ _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 16:26:50 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Isis Glass Subject: Re: So-Called Africans Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Dee writes: In all these years, I have never seen them hot. They are like they always have been, easy to work. Also, if one mating of the queen makes them africanized as was put to us long ago, and the majority of the matings of each queen are not africanized or scuts, why cannot this be seen and broken out, instead of lumping all the colorations into one pot? Comments: Are you saying that they ID as AHB, but they are not vicious? That is certainly something we would all be glad to know. However, if you read the paper that was referred to, the majority of matings are AHB, for various reasons mentioned in the paper. Also, color in honey bees has never been connected to behavior. It's like eye color in people. Glass _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 08:37:14 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: When does perception become reality and again what are so-called AHBs In-Reply-To: <20060106052057.46761.qmail@web51601.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi all: If perception is everything for how we react, then how does this effect science? How did this past help/hurt to bring us to where we are today? Food for thought! http://www.beesource.com/news/article/fruitgwr.htm http://www.beesource.com/news/article/azrepublic.htm http://www.beesource.com/pov/lusby/part17.htm One more question perhaps someone can answer: If 26 so-called queens did this, spreading so much, then what happened to all the imported stuff into the USA, and/or bees that were given out from Kellys Island, and why haven't they taken hold also? If not, then what is the problem with so-called AHBs for dilution? Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________ Yahoo! DSL – Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 17:46:54 -0000 Reply-To: max.watkins@vita-europe.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Max Watkins Organization: Vita (Europe) Ltd Subject: APIGUARD REGISTERED IN THE USA Comments: To: AMorris@UAMAIL.ALBANY.EDU MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I wanted to confirm to the list that Vita's slow-release thymol gel product APIGUARD, for the control of varroa mites on honeybees was registered by the EPA on 30th December 2005. Individual State registrations are now in process. The product will be available through Dadant. APIGUARD is a useful tool, especially in the control of pyrethroid and OP-resistant mites and could help save a lot of bees in the US this year. Happy New Year! Max Dr Max Watkins Director Vita (Europe) Limited 21/23 Wote Street Basingstoke Hampshire RG21 7NE UK Tel.: +44 (0)1256 473 177 Fax: +44 (0)1256 473 179 e-mail: max.watkins@vita-europe.com web: http://www.vita-europe.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 14:46:48 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Artisanal Honey In-Reply-To: <000101c612d7$58c37170$6401a8c0@jefferya8sisex> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-50C63A58 > Honey, >therefore, cannot be artisan. Jeff, I wonder if comb honey would qualify. Producing good comb honey is certainly an art. Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.13/221 - Release Date: 1/4/2006 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 15:19:11 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: More Thoughts on Africanized In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-50C63A58 > WILD KILLER BEE HONEY COMB > RARE WILD COMB 8 OZ. $10.00 And did you see the photo of his honey comb in the Bee Journal? Really ugly. Looked like a hunk of brood comb out of a wall somewhere...which is, I guess, what it was. Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.13/221 - Release Date: 1/4/2006 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 17:34:11 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: When does perception become reality and again what are so-called AHBs > One more question perhaps someone can answer: If 26 so-called queens did this, spreading so much, then what happened to all the imported stuff into the USA, and/or bees that were given out from Kellys Island, and why haven't they taken hold also? If not, then what is the problem with so-called AHBs for dilution? from "Mechanisms that Favor the Continuity of the African Honeybee Genome in the Americas", by Stanley S. Schneider and Gloria DeGrandi-Hoffman No single factor determines the ability of African bees to displace European bees. The continuity of the African genome in the Americas arises from a complex interaction of population dynamics, genetic phenomena, and physiological and behavioral mechanisms. 1) African-patriline advantages during queen replacement; 2) differential use of African and European sperm by queens; 3) nest usurpation by African swarms; 4) decreased developmental stability in hybrid workers. Each of these factors may be involved in the asymmetrical gene flow between African and European populations and contribute to the prevalence of African bees in areas that were once dominated by European honeybees. These are only some of the factors that favor the retention of the African honeybee genome in the Americas. Our research suggests that, in addition to factors that directly increase survival and reproductive success, the invasion of the African honey bee has involved more subtle behavioral mechanisms (queen behavior; worker-queen interactions; reproductive parasitism) that may contribute to asymmetrical gene flow between African and European populations. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 15:07:33 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: Artisanal Honey In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20060106075545.0091ab60@pop.gwi.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- George Fergusson wrote: > use of this term (artisanal honey) ... ...is problematic and it's meaning is unclear. George, You already disagreed with me over on Organics, I'm over here looking for supporters 'LOL' I don't know that it is legal to disagree twice, would that be double jepardy? ;>) >...I'm a real fan of > using simple, clear, > and concise language with well-understood meaning... To use the traffic light analogy, I'm a yellow light guy. My options are open, I can stop, go, or step on the gas. ;>) ...but techincally my > bees make the honey and > I just rob it. Well technically, To rob is "to take something away from by force" To harvest is "the act or process of gathering in a crop" So to use simple, clear, concise language with well-understood meaning. You should use the term "harvest" when describing this procedure. ;>) Best Wishes, Joe __________________________________________ Yahoo! DSL – Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 14:16:47 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: More Thoughts on Africanized In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20060106151709.02886d10@pop.together.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Mark Winston writes, somewhat tongue in cheek, in his book ‘Killer Bees’ about how they’d sometimes bait journalists who came to South America to “learn the *truth* about the killer bees” but only ended up getting in eveyone’s way. Winston writes that one of the researchers favorite routines was to pass out samples of honey from Africanized hives with the suggestion that someone could make a “killing” by bottling and marketing killer bee honey. One reporter referred to as “Ed” took the idea seriously. About a year later Killer Bee Honey hit the market. It sold, Winston reports, for almost a dollar an ounce and came with a brochure stating: “As you taste this honey, remember the lives it cost. And then enjoy it. If you can.” “Ed” traveled around the country in a bee suit and veil promoting his product, but the novelty was short -lived. A food critic referred to it tasting like molasses and silage or hay in a barn. Killer bee honey was a failure. It was an idea whose time had not come. Maybe it still hasn’t. Regards, Dick Allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 18:17:02 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jeffrey Hamelman Subject: Re: Artisanal Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Honey, > >therefore, cannot be artisan. > > > Jeff, I wonder if comb honey would qualify. Producing good comb honey is > certainly an art. > Mike Bill Mares, and other comb honey masters, could conceivably be called artisans. Their product, comb honey, cannot. As a baker, I've seen plenty of long-winded discussions on precisely this topic--artisan bread, artisan bakers, and how to actually define these things. Ultimately, the baker can be an artisan, but technically bread cannot. Of course it's cumbersome to say "bread made by an artisan" as opposed to "artisan bread," but nevertheless it's the baker and not the bread that is "artisan." Substitute "honey" for "bread". It's the beekeeper and not the honey that is artisan. > > > -- > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.13/221 - Release Date: 1/4/2006 > > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 16:38:04 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: mark berninghausen Subject: Honey from India MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Can anyone verify for me the idea that honey from India could be bought at the dock in Montreal, Quebec, Canada for .06/lb in the early 1980s? What kind of bees would people in India be working in the 1980s? What kind of production did India have in the 1980s? Enough to export? Thanks, Mark --------------------------------- Yahoo! Photos – Showcase holiday pictures in hardcover Photo Books. You design it and we’ll bind it! -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 20:26:58 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: Artisanal Honey I think I can suggest what artisanal honey is probably not... Its not mass extracted (any super from any season or any bee yard) , high moisture honey which is heated and packed in a plastic honey bear with a less then proffessional looking label applied and priced at the same price as the major packers. Its probably not sold in drums either to a packer. IMO most beekeepers in the USA put little effort into the honey their bees produce. The mentality is extracting must be done as quickly as possible and the larger the volume per day processed the better..that kind of honey has a label too... its called a commodity, most commodities are plentiful in supply and low in value or price. To think that a beekeeper has little influence on the production and subsequent processing of honey is IMO really quite simplistic and unfortunate. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 17:35:30 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Fwd: wired small cell for 2006 Dadant catalog Comments: To: Bee49ers@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi all: Received this email today from Dadant and wanted to let you know that the wired foundation is now available for both first regression down from 5.4mm size foundation or bigger sizes with the 5.1mm sizing, and also the final regression down to 4.9mm size. Also, due to all you help, for wanting both sizes for the two regression steps that is needed for getting bees stepped down faster, and also crimp wired. Dadant will be carrying both regression sizes in both deep and medium sizing. So thanks to all for calling and writing, and emailing to help. Respectfully Submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ --- Joe Graham wrote: > From: "Joe Graham" > To: "Dee Lusby" > Subject: wired small cell for 2006 Dadant catalog > Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 15:52:33 -0600 > > Dear Dee, > > I have official word now that we will be carrying wired > foundation for both 5.1 and 4.9 cell foundation for both > 8 1/2 and 5 5/8 foundation. Inventory has not been > shipped to the branches yet, so interested buyers may > have to call the Hamilton office at first until inventory > gets to the branches. > > Best regards, > Joe Graham > American Bee Journal > 51 South 2nd St > Hamilton IL 62341 > Phone 217-847-3324 > Fax 217-847-3660 > www.dadant.com __________________________________________ Yahoo! DSL – Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 18:01:48 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: So-Called Africans In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Isis writes: Also, color in honey bees has never been connected to behavior. reply: That doesn't mean that it shouldn't, nor other physical characteristics of similarity. What price have we paid for not doing this? IMPOV you might be surprised. Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________ Yahoo! DSL – Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 21:29:39 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jim Shoemaker Subject: Nucs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am having a discussion/argument with a couple of my fellow beekeepers. The question is: How many frames of bees and brood should be in a 5 = frame nuc and how much honey and pollen. Suggestions and thoughts will be appreciated. Jim -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2006 03:30:42 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: mark berninghausen Subject: Re: Honey from India In-Reply-To: <20060107003804.42199.qmail@web32114.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit CORRECTION NOTICE: CHINA, NOT INDIA. FOR THE FIRST QUESTION. MY MISTAKE. Sorry, Mark mark berninghausen wrote: Can anyone verify for me the idea that honey from India could be bought at the dock in Montreal, Quebec, Canada for .06/lb in the early 1980s? --------------------------------- Yahoo! Photos – Showcase holiday pictures in hardcover Photo Books. You design it and we’ll bind it! -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2006 03:48:43 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: mark berninghausen Subject: Re: Nucs In-Reply-To: <000801c6133a$97eb29c0$6400a8c0@yourb8wcsalvhp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Well Jim, That depends. Are you talking about when you buy a nuc from a seller or when you make a nuc for yourself? If you are talking about when a nuc is made, is that nuc expected to grow it's own queen or are you going to put a queen with it? When I make up my 5 frame nucs, in South Carolina in March, I include 1 frame of honey one frame of open brood with eggs and one frame of mostly capped brood with a queen cell on it. The other 2 frames are either foundation, of any type, or empty comb or a combination. There is usually pollen in the combs that have the brood in them . At that time of year there is also plenty of pollen coming in. When I get these home to NY they are heavy. Some are heavy with honey. But most are heavy with bees and brood as well. At that time they may consist of 3 frames of mostly brood, lots of bees and a queen looking for a place to lay. So, when I put mine or when a customer puts theirs in a hive with drawn comb available they take right off. My customers usually take their nucs home in my boxes and bring them back. When they do, if there were dudds they receive another one to replace it. I hope that this helps. Mark Jim Shoemaker wrote: frames of bees and brood ... in a 5 frame nuc ... how much honey ...pollen. Jim --------------------------------- Yahoo! Photos Got holiday prints? See all the ways to get quality prints in your hands ASAP. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2006 08:40:40 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: So-Called Africans Comments: To: Dee Lusby >Also, color in honey bees has never been connected to behavior. > >reply: >That doesn't mean that it shouldn't, nor other physical >characteristics of similarity. What price have we paid for >not doing this? IMPOV you might be surprised. My fault. I should have said color ISN'T connected to behavior, just like eye color in humans. Get it? It ISN'T connected. There is NO connection between the color of bees and behavior. I have seen extremely docile bees that were a beautiful golden color and ones that were black as coal. And what is the price we have paid that you are talking about? Sorry, but a lot of your statements are so vague that I really have no idea whatsoever what you are talking about. If you are going to join a public forum you should at least make an effort to be understood, instead of making cute statements like "You might be surprised!" Frankly, these days, nothing surprises me. Isis Glass Concord, Mass. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2006 08:46:19 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Nucs In-Reply-To: <000801c6133a$97eb29c0$6400a8c0@yourb8wcsalvhp> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-30F54B4F How strong a 5 frame nuc should be really depends on when, where, and what you want from the nuc. When you make the nuc...spring or mid-summer, where you keep bees, and if you are trying to make honey, add to your numbers, or overwinter the nuc as a nuc. If I was to make up spring nucs from strong colonies...or buy spring nucs from a producer, I would want a stronger unit. In that case, I would think a nuc should have three frames well filled with brood in all stages, one frame of honey/pollen, and one empty comb. Here, I'm talking nucs in a 5 frame nuc box. The empty comb is so the bees don't feel crowded, and start swarm preparations. I'm also talking about nucs in my area of northern Vermont. We have a short season. I imagine, that with a longer season, where the bees have a longer time to build up for the flow, that the nucs could be made weaker. If you make up the nucs in 10 frame equipment, then you would, of course, have more empty comb space, and perhaps additional honey/pollen combs. You could make up your own nucs with more brood, but that would probably, at least in my area, be a waste of your resource. Nucs with 3 frames of brood build up nicely, often storing 100 lbs of surplus honey when made up on the Dandelion flow. You can also make up mid-summer nucs. These can be over wintered, and are a source for replacing winter losses, re-queening weak colonies early, and making increase. They are started much weaker than spring made nucs. You don't want them to build up into powerful, honey producing colonies. Rather, they maintain a small broodnest...4 or 5 frames, depending on the size of the nuc box...and winter in that condition. They must be started with a small population of brood and bees. They are started with only 1 to 1 1/2 frame of brood, a frame on honey, and an empty comb. Made too strong, they will swarm on the fall flow. The following spring, they range in strength from nucs with 1 to 4 frames of brood, with the average being 2.5 to 3. They are way ahead of normal spring made nucs, and often go on to make a large surplus crop...in fact, one I sold this year had only two frames of brood at the start of the Dandelion flow, and went on to make 150 pounds surplus. A couple, with 3+ frames of brood, and exceptional queens, in exceptional locations, made 240 pounds of surplus. So, you can see that how strong a 5 frame nuc should be can vary. If I was buying nucs, in nuc boxes, around the Dandelion flow time, I would expect there to be 3 frames of brood, a frame of honey/pollen, and one empty comb. Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.13/221 - Release Date: 1/4/2006 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2006 09:23:42 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: AHB in US in 1890 Comments: To: Dee Lusby Dee asked: >what happened to all the imported stuff into the USA, and/or >bees that were given out from Kellys Island, and why >haven't they taken hold also? If not, then what is the >problem with so-called AHBs for dilution? QUOTED MATERIAL: As a forecast, Roger A. Morse (Bees and Beekeeping. Ithaca, New York: Cornell University Press. 1975) made this statement, "There is little justification for the concern that the Africanized bees will spread northward and into the United States." He based that prediction on his past research that uncovered reports of early importation of African bees to North America in the late 1890's, those bees did not successfully adapt nor did the African bee adapt in Poland. As a result of those importations, he also believed that African genes were subsequently introduced into colonies of bees in North America and Europe. Hence, the Africanization of bees in the United States and Europe already occurred with aggressive behavior presumably 'tamed down' by hybridization. He [was] correct in that tropical bees do not adapt to northern temperate weather however, what Morse did not foresee was the fact that Apis mellifera scutellata hybrids are very adaptable to southern temperate-zone conditions. Further, after hybridization with European varieties, the feral AHB colony gene pool reverts back to the genotype found in South Africa, commonly known as the East African Honey Bee. FROM: Daniel LeBas, University of Nevada, Las Vegas. >From PRACTICING ANTHROPOLOGY Vol. 22, No. 2, Spring 2000. Reprinted with permission from the Society for Applied Anthropology -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2006 09:38:51 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Steve Bonine Subject: A rose by any other name In-Reply-To: <6b00f96350da1547b58818005efa4d69@gci.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Killer bee honey was a failure I spent only a few minutes searching the web and discovered one vendor still selling "killer bee honey". (I discovered that "killer bee" is the name of a golf club, which complicates the search process a tad.) I wonder how popular it is. My take on this and the "artisenal honey" thread is that beekeepers who sell in the retail market should consider using more imagination in labeling. Apply your own ethical standards -- if you're not comfortable using the word "artisan", then don't use it. But we need to realize that there are a lot of folks who can be motivated to buy something by a label that catches their attention. This is not a bad thing. We beekeepers know that honey is a great natural, local, unprocessed product. In may cases, potential buyers don't realize this. Within legal and ethical limits, we need to use labels to educate them. Maybe we can even learn a little from our competition in this regard . . . if you can sell corn syrup as honey or leverage the name "honey" to sell a product that doesn't contain honey, shouldn't we who are selling the real thing be able to do even better? Related . . . I thought that Kim's "Inner Cover" editorial in the January "Bee Culture" was thought provoking. Complete with a Dennis the Menace cartoon, he suggests that current honey containers leave something to be desired. "Isn't it time to quit using the least useful, most inconvenient, messy, sticky containers we can find?" My opinion is not quite this vehement but the type of container, like the label, is something that merits more attention than it often receives. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2006 07:40:16 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Article: ASU researchers find link between social behavior, maternal traits in bees In-Reply-To: <000801c6133a$97eb29c0$6400a8c0@yourb8wcsalvhp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit ASU researchers find link between social behavior, maternal traits in bees. Research may show why queenless colonies tend to hoard pollen. Might also suggest why bees with the trait thelytoky (to my understanding) collect more pollen. If collecting pollen is linked to maternal traits, would this suggest some races are more maternal than other? ASU News Release: http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2006-01/asu-arf010306.php Another Article: http://www.astrobio.net/news/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=1827&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0 Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' My Site: http://www.biologicalbeekeeping.com Organic Bee Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Organicbeekeepers/ Feral Bee Project: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FeralBeeProject/ __________________________________________ Yahoo! DSL – Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2006 08:42:06 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: AHB in US in 1890 In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Peter writes: Further, after hybridization with European varieties, the feral AHB colony gene pool reverts back to the genotype found in South Africa, commonly knownas the East African Honey Bee. Reply: Peter, this is where you are assuming IMPOV as we have never NEVER seen this in our bees.........somehow management style means a lot and also working with acclimitized bees that are local, for our bees have remained gentle GENTLE.....and we are talking 4-5 deeps!!! commercial managment but again our style. Also, then this doesn't say much for temperate zoning and is contrary to Nature.......Some how I feel hot bees in general along with treatments and complex mongrelization are being mixed into one pot and this is quite sad............ Some day you will have to visit us my man and see our bees....along with a few others on the list here I think! Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________ Yahoo! DSL – Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2006 16:07:19 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Mares Organization: Mares Apiaries Subject: artisanal honey MIME-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I hate to disagree with Jeff Hamelman, who calls me a "comb honey master." But when I re-do my labels, I'd be tempted to use the word "artisanal" and let the buyer read into it whatever he/she wants since a major factor in selling is to raise the quality quotient. On the other hand, for my modest hobby/ business, adjectives like "local" and "Vermont" and "pure" are probably equally compelling for spurring sales. -- Bill Mares/Mares Apiaries 429 S. Willard Street Burlington, VT 05401 (802) 863-4938 Bee Happy in Your Work! -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2006 08:45:36 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: queenbee Subject: Re: Article: ASU researchers find link between social behavior, maternal traits in bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Research may show why queenless colonies tend to hoard > pollen. This pollen hoarding of queenless colonies has been discussed before in this forum. Now we know a bit more. The link by Joe was very interesting. Question. Does anyone know if there was a difference in honey production between the high and low pollen hoarding colonies? Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA Coming to Apimondia in Australia in 2007? -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2006 19:34:05 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Artisanal Honey In-Reply-To: <003201c61317$4d6ef250$6401a8c0@jefferya8sisex> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-2EAC5E42 > As a baker, I've seen plenty of long-winded discussions on precisely this >topic--artisan bread, artisan bakers, and how to actually define these >things. Jeff truly is an artisan. We held our summer meeting at his bakery in Vermont this summer. He and his wife provided the bread. Very delicious. But, there was one loaf...left uncut. It was truly a work of art. On top, were strands of wheat...I assume created from dough. It really was too beautiful to eat. So, Jeff, tell me... The baker is an artist. The bread a work of art. Just what would you call it, to tell the loafs apart. That was surely more than just "bread." Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.13/221 - Release Date: 1/4/2006 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2006 16:45:17 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Honey from India In-Reply-To: <20060107003804.42199.qmail@web32114.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Mark writes: Can anyone verify for me the idea that honey from India could be bought at the dock in Montreal, Quebec, Canada for .06/lb in the early 1980s? Reply: Being a commercial beekeeper for a long time and remembering back to the 1980s.........there was a time with the ASCS office then that honey to packers was about .30 lb thereabouts on the buyback program. That would put Argentina and Mexican honey cheaper and the honey from SEA area cheaper yet. So I don't see it as unreasonable. Mark continues: What kind of bees would people in India be working in the 1980s? What kind of production did India have in the 1980s? Enough to export? Reply: They were working the large dorsata bees in the trees in the forests in volume and also bees called cultured and/or domestic bees in hives also (not sure on the cultured name name part in remembering). But they did ship volume in honey and China would be in this picture also. Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________ Yahoo! DSL – Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2006 00:09:51 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "D. Murrell" Subject: Re: Successful Invaders Hi Guys, There was an interesting American Bee Journal article describing what has happened to feral bee hunting in rural Mexico since the AHB arrived. Before the AHB arrived, traditional harvesting honey was a common diversion. Today, it's a bad and painful joke for those who have dealt with the AHB. Feral honey harvesting is no longer a leisure activity. As a commercial beekeeper, I've worked all kinds of hot hives over three decades of beekeeping. But I've never worked any like the AHB's. They are very easily controlled with smoke most of the time. But not all of the time. But the slightest hive disturbance, without smoke, can set them off like no other bees I've encountered. Gently removing a lid without smoke can cause an attack that is instant and vicious. They will kill any sparrow/robin sized bird that flies through the area. They will sting the black plastic molding around the windows and doors on a bee truck. They will force a normally suited/veiled/experienced beekeeper with his smoker into the saftey of his truck in a few minutes. They will harass anything that moves within a 100 yards of the hive. And they will continue this activity unabated until sunset. I can tell everyone that cell size has no effect on this kind of behavior as my AHBs were on small cell comb until I requeened them. It is absolutely irresponsible to negate the effects this kind of bee can have to the general publics health and safety. A beekeeper can handle them in a remote location. But they spell big trouble for other people in other areas. And it's almost inconceivable to think that the experiences of thousands of beekeepers, south of our borders, can be written off as a political/economic ploy or plot without any factual basis. Those beekeepers who have continued to keep AHBs have changed their ways or they are no longer keeping bees. Every year, several people are killed by bees in the Southwest. And these people die from massive stinging and not allergic reactions. I don't know of anyone dying from any kind of bee sting in Wyoming in my memory. Something is going on! Beekeepers who understand the problem, can be the first line of defense for the general public. These beekeepers could be seen as protecting public safety. But those who minimize, deny or negate the problem aren't doing beekeepers any favors. And I sure wouldn't want them keeping bees, in a AHB area, around my neighborhood, my aged parents, my wife, my children, my cattle, pets or my friends. Anti beekeeping laws might be needed in such cases as those who don't see a problem sure couldn't help solve it. And they probably wouldn't have much concern for public saftey. And, if I as a beekeeper feel this way, image how the general public, who are mostly allergic and automatically associate bee with sting, would feel? Regards Dennis Thinking that any beekeeper in an AHB area who puts his head in bag on this one is going to get really stung up someplace else. At least according to the ABJ article, he will :>) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2006 05:06:11 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: Nucs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 07/01/06 03:51:20 GMT Standard Time, jshoemake1@MCHSI.COM writes: <> I only have UK-based information, but Wedmore gives a general rule that two-thirds of the combs in a nuc should contain brood. That would work out at three to three and a half frames of brood in a five-frame nuc. I wouldn't be happy with less than three. I assume US practice is similar. Regards, Robert Brenchley -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2006 12:36:20 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Article: ASU researchers find link between social behavior, maternal traits in bees In-Reply-To: <002d01c613dc$14e06160$2992453d@new1> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All > pollen collection was primarily conducted by worker bees with > larger ovaries, cementing the connection between high > pollen-hoarding strains and reproductive traits. What then stops this process 'running away' and producing 100% large ovary workers over a large number of generations ? Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2006 09:24:43 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Why wouldn't results change? ( Successful Invaders) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dennis: FWIW, I have never seen this behavior you describe with hot bees. But then we keep locally acclimitized honeybees and on SC and don't feed artificial food. Makes one wonder the state of our honeybees over the years to genetic mixture, and artificial food, besides the various treatments. As take these three away, and put the bees back onto a more natural sizing and the bees certainly don't do as you describe. Also leads to another question: If boiling water changes it's schematics with latitude and altitude, then perhaps changing the size of the bees, and it's diet, and taking away all various treatments, changes the schematics also in doing bee research. Wonder how much research would stand with another test or inclusion of another level of testing to put the bees on either SC or use SC as a control somewhere in the experiment, or other? experiment in point. Recently Joe posted on an experiment done with pollen gathering and it making for better breeding in bees that naturally gather more pollen, done at ASU."Results from the experiment validated her hypothesis showing that pollen collection was primarily conducted by worker bees with larger ovaries, cementing the connection between high pollen-hoarding strains and reproductive traits." So question for you to ponder: If SC bees are better pollen hoarders in general, as bees fill SC first before going to the larger, then LC bees on comb more applicable to honey gathering would gather less pollen. But in saying this, this would be new in the bees world this past 100 years or so, and not very old in habits, so if this experiment was to be carried to a higher level IMPOV to see if it stands, then why cannot the bees be reversed and see what happens by putting the high pollen gatherers on LC drawnout combs in the broodnest, etc and the lesser pollen gatherers on SC drawnout combs in the broodnest, and then see if the experiment stands with strain/race or maybe instead reverses itself............ Just sitting here thinking.......... Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________ Yahoo! DSL – Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2006 09:29:25 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Article: ASU researchers find link between social behavior, maternal traits in bees In-Reply-To: <43C10744.4050203@lineone.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dave writes: What then stops this process 'running away' and producing 100% large ovary workers over a large number of generations ? Reply: Nothing, and with SC more natural sizing you then gain back thelytoky traits in perhaps our races/strains again as documented in earlier writings of others. So with continued SC usage all around the USA you would then get more SC sightings of ?? Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________ Yahoo! DSL – Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2006 18:15:56 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: Nucs In-Reply-To: <235.4d7b395.30f23e13@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed In message <235.4d7b395.30f23e13@aol.com>, Robert Brenchley writes >I only have UK-based information, but Wedmore gives a general rule that >two-thirds of the combs in a nuc should contain brood. That would work out at >three to three and a half frames of brood in a five-frame nuc. I wouldn't be >happy with less than three. I assume US practice is similar. That may be the rule of thumb in that book but times and methods change, progress in materials is made, and this is now pretty out of date except in a committed traditionalist system. Wedmore is a fine book and still has a lot of sense, but it must be read with the context in which it was written borne in mind. We make our nucs up in the first week of May (E.Scotland) after vacating the boxes by promoting the overwintered ones into full hives. They are made with 1 bar of brood, 1 bar of stores, and enough bees to comfortable cover these two bars, plus 3 empty bars. Add a hatching point queen cell properly protected and remove to the mating apiary. Once the queen is laying (and most are in 3 weeks) add one more bar of brood, preferably all sealed, and if no flow give a couple of litres of syrup. By mid June the first of these are needing promoted to full boxes, and by the end of the month all have. Upon promotion they get the rest of the box filled with new combs, often foundation, and given a further feed if needed although many locations do not need it. By mid July these are almost all wall to wall and crowded in a single, and then must be doubled up for going to the heather. Last 2 years these nucs have averages over 40lb at the heather. After the nucs are promoted the boxes are used again, with a further one bar nuc and a bar of stores, plus a cell or perhaps a virgin in a cage. These are placed in a couple of key locations with access to flowering balsam and just left to get on with it. Their prime function is to overwinter and be ready to expand fast in spring, and are never boosted with the extra bar of brood that the spring nucs get. A few fail, but not important in the grand scheme of things. This year some of these had grown so strong that they were hanging out all over the face of the nuc boxes on warm days and started congestion cells, so in late August they had to be split (yes bizarre, but true) and the queenless half was given a mated laying queen from the spare ones we had in our mating boxes left over from early summer management. All are now four or five seams of bees, heavy with stores, and looking set fair for spring at this rather premature time. These winter ones go to polytunnels for strawberry and raspberry pollination in March and April, get fed there, and are ready for promotion to full boxes in April due to the warm conditions in the tunnels. So, single comb nucs, 2 crops of them a year, very different from the traditional ways. And it works. Incidentally, the boxes we use are made in Canada and are truly excellent. -- Murray McGregor -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2006 12:57:48 -0500 Reply-To: wwfarm@wctel.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Carolyn Ehle Subject: Re: varroa screens -- specifications and sources In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20060105092736.02e46c48@mso.umt.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Jerry Bromenshenk wrote: > All > > We're developing a new product that will incorporate a varroa screen. > I'm looking for sources of screening materials, want to identify the > best product, looking worldwide. We converted to mesh bottom boards in 1998-2000 using a 1/8 inch polyethylene mesh we had on hand for catfish fingerling cages. It is easy to work, cuts with a knife, can be stapled on, cheap (about $1 per bottom board, last I looked), and durable. No danger of cutting yourself on it either. We staple it on from the inside, tho it can eventually develop some slack if you need a perfectly flat surface. The percentage of open space is better than some other products. Drawbacks are that it will tear if you drop the corner of a box, or something similar directly on it, and mice could eat through it, though here in piedmont SC that has not been a problem. Even when torn it still is effective for varroa, but no longer bee-proof for moving. I have seen adult small hive beetles try to go through it and fail. There are a number of suppliers. I have used Memphis Net and Twine, where it is code PN1, single rolls for $26.45 US for 36 inch X 50 foot rolls, plus shipping. Shipping weight is 12 pounds, another bonus. Not for everybody, probably, but most of our beekeeping association use it and are happy with it. The following is the Memphis N&T page for it: http://tinyurl.com/7sutl Carolyn Ehle Lakelands Beekeepers Association Plum Branch, SC -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2006 13:25:02 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: Nucs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 08/01/06 18:18:27 GMT Standard Time, murray@DENROSA.DEMON.CO.UK writes: <> Would it work for a beginner buying their first bees? I can work happily with a one-frame nuc made up around June, in the knowledge that it should build up to overwinter and make a crop the next year. But I wouldn't expect to sell a one-frame job. Regards, Robert Brenchley -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2006 13:35:42 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Benson Subject: Re: Why wouldn't results change? ( Successful Invaders) MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline ----- Original Message ----- From: Dee Lusby Date: Sunday, January 8, 2006 12:24 pm Subject: [BEE-L] Why wouldn't results change? ( Successful Invaders) > Also leads to another question: If boiling water changes > it's schematics with latitude and altitude, then perhaps > changing the size of the bees, and it's diet, and taking > away all various treatments, changes the schematics also in > doing bee research. Are you suggesting that the effects of atmospheric pressure on the temperature at which water boils is somehow analagous or has anything to do with bee size, diet and treatments? I am having a hard time following the above statement. Keith -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2006 19:47:57 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: Nucs In-Reply-To: <1d6.4c8b8410.30f2b2fe@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed In message <1d6.4c8b8410.30f2b2fe@aol.com>, Robert Brenchley writes >Would it work for a beginner buying their first bees? It just all depends on the circumstances and expectations. There is no absolute answer until you know exactly what the goal is, and even then it has to be tempered by local and material circumstances. Nucs, small ones, are actually great teaching tools for beginners with no experience, but sure, if you want a full crop from the early to mid summer harvest first year then the nucs I use are too small. -- Murray McGregor -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2006 12:22:56 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: mark berninghausen Subject: Re: Successful Invaders In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dennis, I am employeed seasonally as an Apiary Inspector in New York State. What can I do to prepare myself for AHb? Is it possible, in your opinion, for Africanized traits ,such as stinging behavior, to be present and express themselves in bees who when tested with the FABIS testshow results that read European .999, Non-European .001? Do you have any faith in laboratory tests such as FABIS or mtDNA? Or are they necessary? Will we know them when we see them? And therefore, no testing is needed? I would like to here your opinion, as well as others. This discussion has been going on, on numerous lists, lately and needs to continue so that we are all prepared. Mark Berninghausen "D. Murrell" wrote: Hi Guys, Beekeepers who understand the problem [of Africanized bees], can be the first line of defense for the general public. These beekeepers could be seen as protecting public safety. But those who minimize, deny or negate the problem aren't doing beekeepers any favors. Regards Dennis --------------------------------- Yahoo! Photos Ring in the New Year with Photo Calendars. Add photos, events, holidays, whatever. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2006 17:22:43 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: A Successful Invader In-Reply-To: <20051126183341.32427.qmail@web34307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello All, Quite a variety of AHB threads to choose from this month! I counted I think 12, I apologize if I counted a few AFB threads as AHB threads which they tend to look like AHB on my computer screen. That seems to suggest it really is hard to identify AHB just by looking. Anyhow, I picked this thread as it seems to match my letter the most. This year I removed a small colony of bees from a traffic cone here in SW PA. But I happened to just recently come across this link below that shows a photo of an AHB queen. The queen from the swarm looks remarkably similar to the one in this link. Especially noticeable were the bright wide / thick looking legs, slightly smaller over all size, and a peculiar low walking stance, and also the terigets seemed well defined but in the context of a single color abdomen as in the photo. My question is: If each race of honeybee queen is distinguishable by a certain set of characteristics, then would that be the case with the AHB queen also? http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/AR/archive/mar04/bees0304.htm Best Regards, Joe __________________________________________ Yahoo! DSL – Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2006 17:26:15 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: A Successful Invader In-Reply-To: <20051126183341.32427.qmail@web34307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Opps, just noticed, that's a EHB queen in the pic. But the question is the same, is there a difference between queens that one can see? http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/AR/archive/mar04/bees0304.htm Best Regards, Joe __________________________________________ Yahoo! DSL – Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2006 19:55:16 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "D. Murrell" Subject: Re: Successful Invaders In-Reply-To: <20060108202256.39594.qmail@web32103.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Mark, mark berninghausen wrote: > Dennis, > I am employed seasonally as an Apiary Inspector in New York State. What can I do to prepare myself for AHb? First, know that you can encounter AHBs. I can't spot them by appearance. But they are pretty easy to spot by behavior, especially if an AHB colony is worked more than once. When working unknown bees, always have a smoker lit and a veil on. And always have other protective gear available. It's very important not to let anything get out of control. Don't bang, bump, jar any unknown hives without smoking the entrance first. And then give the smoke a few minutes to work. An alarmed AHB hive will even attack the smoker and many bees will die inside it. If the hives you're inspecting are located in a more populated area be double cautious. If anything seems out of the ordinary, back off. I would be especially cautious if the bees appear exceptionally runny. I've seen AHBs almost completely evacuate a hive after just a couple good puffs of smoke under the cover. I've often thought that it would be a good idea to have a very quick way of killing a vicious colony while keeping the guard bees grounded. After my AHB encounter, a dead, vicious hive is a much better option than spending half a day worrying and watching so the bees won't hurt some vulnerable human being. I'm thinking that a garden sprayer charged with a soapy solution might just work. But it would have to be ready, just like a smoker. And used at the first indication of loss of control. > Is it possible, in your opinion, for Africanized traits ,such as stinging behavior, to be present and express themselves in bees who when tested with the FABIS testshow results that read European .999, Non-European .001? Yes. But as a practical matter, you or others will probably work the bees BEFORE any morphic tests are conducted. The tests would be done only after a nasty incident occurs. Hopefully, probably, all the offending bees will be dead at that point. And no one will have needed to called the ambulance. > Do you have any faith in laboratory tests such as FABIS or mtDNA? Or are they necessary? Will we know them when we see them? And therefore, no testing is needed? I would like to here your opinion, as well as others. This discussion has been going on, on numerous lists, lately and needs to continue so that we are all prepared. > Testing might confirm a hunch. But once the genes are in the bee population, not much can be done to control or eliminate the problem. Just look at what happened when the AHBs migrated north. I expect that much the same will happen here. The real test will probably be bee behavior and public perception. Nasty hives won't be tolerated anywhere. And hives will be generally relegated to more remote areas where risk and liability are at a minimum. If you get a chance, read that ABJ article I talked about. It's on page 795 of the October 2003 edition. It's very definitive on the bees before and after AHB. And I would dare anyone keeping non-AHBs to say they've had a similar experience with them. Also, it could be that, your focus as a bee inspector might change dramatically. Pubic safety might replace bee health. Just some thoughts. Regards Dennis -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2006 19:53:54 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Successful Invaders In-Reply-To: <20060108202256.39594.qmail@web32103.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit mark berninghausen wrote: Dennis, I am employeed seasonally as an Apiary Inspector in New York State. What can I do to prepare myself for AHb? Is it possible, in your opinion, for Africanized traits ,such as stinging behavior, to be present and express themselves in bees .... Will we know them when we see them? Mark is referring to identifying the presence of AHBs in an apiary. Being from lower Alabama I am taking the onset of the AHB presence seriously since they will be here sometime in the future. As soon as I hear that they (AHB) have established a presence outside of the Mobile Bay area I plan to approach my yards as if one or more hives have been Africanized. Currently my plans are to suit up as securely as possible, go through and thump each hive vigorously once to see if there is any reaction. If there is no reaction to the thumping then I would strip down to my normal beekeeping attire. If a hive reacts negatively then I would spray the entire colony with soapy water, let it be robbed out or freeze the brood boxes, and recolonize it with European stock. If anyone else has thought out management procedures for the elimination of AHB in a yard I would be interested in their methods. Mike Located 1/2 way between Mobile and Montgomery, Alabama --------------------------------- Yahoo! Photos Got holiday prints? See all the ways to get quality prints in your hands ASAP. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2006 22:54:23 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "D. Murrell" Subject: Re: Successful Invaders Hi Guys, That American Bee Journal article I referred to can be found on page 795 of the October 2003 edition. Do those AHB's behave like your hot EHB's? Regards Dennis -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 09:29:05 -0000 Reply-To: Phil Moore Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Phil Moore Subject: Re: Nucs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Incidentally, the boxes we use are made in Canada and are truly > excellent. > Murray McGregor Murray I assume these are the polystyrene nucs that come with no holes fro entrances and bottom ventilation. Do you provide any bottom ventilation? Where, how and how large is the entrance made? Regards Phil Moore -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 05:52:03 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: mark berninghausen Subject: Re: Successful Invaders In-Reply-To: <43C1D094.3080906@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Thank you Dennis. A good, detailed and thought provoking reply to my questions. Thanks. I have that article and will read it, right now. As per a change of "focus as a bee inspector" that has already changed. Not only as a "Public safety " replacing "bee health", but safety of inspectors health itself. And not just as pertains to possible, or inevitable, encounters with AHb, but as it pertains to what chemicals beekeepers use in their attempts to control pests of honeybees. This past season one of my inspectors feels that he was exposed to chemicals of some sort, while inspecting an apiary. He burned his eyebrow when he wiped sweat off of his face, after or during an apiary inspection. He saw a doctor, who was unable to determine a cause for his symptoms. This inspectors ability to concentrate on his paper work and his ability to carry on a meaningful, in depth conversation, while not totally impared, were impared. This kind of occurence bothers me greatly. Is this what we have to look forward to, more and more, in the future? Of course we will have to take steps to protect ourselves, as well as the public. But that protection needs to be available to us. And the first line of defense is knowledge. That is what we are lacking most of all, at this point. In my opinion. Mark Berninghausen "D. Murrell" wrote: "Also, it could be that, your focus as a bee inspector might change dramatically. Pubic safety might replace bee health. Just some thoughts. Regards Dennis" --------------------------------- Yahoo! Photos Ring in the New Year with Photo Calendars. Add photos, events, holidays, whatever. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 10:00:42 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter John Keating Subject: Re: varroa screens -- specifications and sources MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings, the company Phero Tech supply a plastic screen for their sticky boards. As the distrubutor in Quebec I have had a lot experience with the product. It is the preferred screen used by federal and provincial inspection services. It works very well on a sticky board but may not be suitable as an unsurported screen. It is quite costly from Phero Tech as they are not the producers of the mesh. http://www.pherotech.com/varroa_mite_trap.html Peter -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 11:22:15 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: joe bossom Subject: ahb and deterrance MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The stories about AHB are becoming a little scary. We have read in this forum, about apiary workers having to run 50 ft in = one direction and 50 ft back then jumping into their truck and closing = the doors in order to avoid to avoid stings when they remove their = veils,=20 We have heard about incidents of finding dead rodents and dead birds = killed by bees, Bees that attack smokers, bees that attack if not = smoked. AHB in small cell hives as well as regular cell hives. It has = some resonance with the Alfred Hitchcock movie about birds. True, most = of this bee inflicted violence has occurred in the so called "red = states" but there is probably not a political motive behind the problem. = (joke) I would like to hear from secretaries of Southern bee clubs to learn how = many "hobby" bee keepers have persisted in the face of the threat of = multiple stings, how many have been deterred from continuing. What = enrollment or participation changes have occurred since the advent of = AHB in the sunny southland.=20 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 15:20:56 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "D. Murrell" Subject: Re: Why wouldn't results change? ( Successful Invaders) Hi Dee and Everyone, It's interesting to note that the environmental effects of location on bee temperament have been observed by others. I think it was Andy N. who noted how hot his California bees got when they migrated them to Colorado. I think most aspects of bee behavior have a very broad range. I know you have raised thousands of queens, like I have. And in a single batch, with the same breeder, about 10% will be hot. And 10% will be exceptionally gentle, with the rest somewhere in between. When I requeened my AHB hives, the bees lost most of their AHB type defensiveness within a week. And they behaved just like a hot EHB hive until all the AHBs died out. I think there are lots of factors involved with the AHBs defensiveness. But with time, they could be selected out. That would help the beekeeper, but the feral bees would still behave the same. And most of those are probably living on natural sized comb, feed, etc. Regards Dennis -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 22:50:43 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Successful Invaders Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>...a garden sprayer charged with a soapy solution might just work. I recall a post mentioning that dry ice gives off CO2 that can be used [without contaminating the frames with soapy water]. Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 16:46:41 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Can Mite Counts be Counted on? Comments: cc: Organicbeekeepers@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <20060109.145110.12505.281024@webmail29.nyc.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Interesting article in January 2006 Bee Culture In Research Reviewed by Steve Sheppard "Selection and possibilities within honeybees - Be careful what you select for." --------> A team of Italian and German researchers selected lines of bees that tended to have either high or low mite populations and then investigated whether behavioral and physiological characteristics of bees from these lineages could be correlated to mite levels. The results reported by the researchers showed that: 1) Mite resistance or tolerance as measured solely by mite population levels was not readily correlated with the various tested physiological and behavioral honeybee characteristics. 2) There was no correlation between the tendency of the bees to remove pin-killed brood (hygienic behavior) and the mite infestation levels of the colony 3) They was no correlation between the number of non-reproducing mites (SMR) and the level of mite infestation. 4) There was no correlation between grooming and mite levels. 5) There was no correlation between the percentage of damaged mites collected on sticky boards and the level of mite infestation. However, they did find that both brood area (number of brood cells) and the average honey crop harvested were higher in each year of the experiment in the so-called susceptible colonies compared to the resistant colonies! The authors caution the reader that hygienic behavior, non-reproduction of mites (SMR) and grooming may be traits that have limited value in a selection program designed to produce mite resistant honeybees. They further caution that it may be difficult to select for honeybees that produce both vigorous and productive colonies, yet have slow growing mite populations. Their rational for the latter statement is that mite population growth appears to be tied to brood levels. Thus, selection for low mite levels could actually select for bees that produce smaller amounts of brood. For example, by using mite infestation level (mite counts) as the only selective criterion, the researchers may have inadvertently selected for high and low brood producing lines of bees. Thus, their resistant bees actually may have been bees selected to produce less brood and to be less able to sustain mite population growth. Consequently, they also would have been less able to collect a surplus of honey. --------> To summarize, low mite levels have limited value unless accompanied by honey production and over all colony performance. If one can manage to achieve low mite counts and over all performance, then you may have something. __________________________________________ Yahoo! DSL – Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 20:18:31 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: Successful Invaders After reading the latest posts on AHB I just don't understand why northern beekeepers en masse would not unite across state lines to put an end to shipment of bees across state lines and work together to develop local queen breeding techniques. Perhaps a stringent certification process could be developed that would allow shipments of packages and queens from southern areas when a reasonable protocol is followed to keep AHB genetics out. Here in Mn, in last months Dept of Ag newsletter, it was noted that hives were found from 4 seperate beekeepers with small hive beetle infestation last season .... all 4 were commercial migratory beekeepers. Of course these are just the hives that were found. I assume there are dozens that were not. We already have the history to show that self policing does not work at keeping mites and SHB contained. Obviously this idea of closed borders has great implications to the industry and certian individuals. So does doing nothing............. I'm at a loss for how any beekeeper would explain to Joe or Jane public why we allow massive movement of bee hives across the USA with no way to insure we are not spreading the AHB genetics . My guess is that the media and some politicians will figure out that this is crazy and borders will close with in the next 5 years. Its just common sense. We should do it on our own in a way that helps our industry and protects livelihoods rather then let the hammer fall and let non-beekeepers define the new laws. Just like an alcoholic who follows the 12 step program..... admitting the scope of the problem is the first step -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 21:35:51 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Successful Invaders MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > I just don't understand why > northern beekeepers would not > work together > to develop local queen breeding techniques. This is already happening. The Vermont State Beekeepers are devoting = their entire year of meetings and workshops to such a goal. President = Michael Palmer wrote, "This year, there will be a theme involved in our = workshops and meetings: using and rearing northern bees and queens." = See: www.vtbeekeepers.org=20 =20 However, to successfully combat the spread of AHB from southern = producers, all Northern Beekeepers would have to unite and simply say no = to Southern packages. Canadian beekeepers successfully did so when they = closed the US border to bee shipments from the States. It changed = beekeeping in Canada. But to do so within the continental US, would = require a united effort by all beekeepers above the Mason Dixon Line. = (See: = http://geography.about.com/od/politicalgeography/a/masondixon.htm). Not = only would it require a massive cooperative effort, it would also = require that the northern beekeepers meet their needs from Northern = suppliers. It is possible to raise northern queens and overwinter = nucleus colonies, but the supply for 2006 would already have to have = been set up in 2005. I do not know of a supplier or group of suppliers = able to meet Northern demand. Heck, I don't know of a supplier or group = of suppliers able to meet MY demand, as I expect heavy losses this = winter. I did set up and am hoping to overwinter 50 nucs, but I've = hedged my bets with a reserve order of 75 packages for spring 2006 = shipment. =20 And this says nothing of migratory beekeepers. As Bob so eloquently = wrote the last time this topic came up, pollination rules. Borders will = not, cannot close to migratory pollinators. It simply will not happen. = What has to happen in this situation (I'm carefully avoiding "crisis") = is beekeepers have to be responsible with their own stock. Beekeepers = will have to work diligently to cull hot stock. Not only can there be = no room for hot bees, there can be no room for beekeepers who treat hot = hives, UGLY hives, with a laisser faire attitude. Unfortunately there = will be beekeepers who do exactly that (See: http://tinyurl.com/bbk45 ) = and follow the thread on "Very Aggressive Bees" in the archives. Posts = abound about very aggressive hives which the beekeepers simply leave = alone, with the potential to cause an incident from that hive = specifically, and the unavoidable spreading of the hot genes to open = mated queens. Beekeepers who tolerate hot bees are of the same caliber = as beekeepers who tolerate American foulbrood. Unfortunately there have = always been and likely always will be beekeepers who harbor American = foulbrood. I am thankful that New York State has an apiary inspection = program, and I look to the NYS apiary inspection program to protect me = from beekeepers who don't know or don't care that they harbor problems. = Although it's not on the books, perhaps a tolerance level needs to be = set for acceptable temperment of colonies. In the same way inspectors = can protect me from AFB, perhaps inspectors can police unacceptable = bees. I don't imagine that would be a popular assignment, but in the = same vein I suspect there are more than a few who will walk away and = leave alone colonies that don't welcome inspections. =20 > certification process to allow shipments > of packages and queens from southern areas Nice idea, but what will that cost? Add $10?, $20 to the price per = unit. > I'm at a loss for how any beekeeper would explain to Joe or Jane They won't be explaining it to Joe or Jane, they'll be explaining it to = the judge. =20 > the media and some politicians will figure out that this > is crazy and borders will close with in the next 5 years. No, the easy target will be the small, suburban beekeeper. You cannot = halt food production, but if you take on the back yard beekeeper it will = look like diligent action has been taken to protect the public as best = as the politician can. The little guys will be the targets. =20 > .... admitting the scope of the problem is the first step What is the scope of the problem? Is the problem hot bees? I've had = hot bees. I've had bees that were a menace to people and animals in = their vicinity. I went to great lengths to requeen the colony. In = today's world I wouldn't bother with the "great lengths", I'd simply = snuff the hive. The financial loss is tolerable when compared to the = alternative. =20 And I agree that the best action is to avoid bees from suspect areas. I = haven't purchased bees from Texas in decades. My best queen supplier = took himself out of the game when his area became suspect. As the = suspect areas grow, and the non-suspect suppliers dwindle, it becomes = ever more necessary for individual beekeepers to take on responsibility = for their own stock. Breed better bees. Learn to successfully = overwinter bees so replacements from the south aren't necessary. Easy = to write, not as easy to do. But it is easy to cull hot stock. =20 It's a common theme as yet another problem challanges beekeepers. = Become a better beekeeper or become an ex-beekeeper. Now more than = ever, there is no room for bee-havers! =20 Aaron Morris - thinking George Imirie is aliove and well! -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 18:06:01 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: mark berninghausen Subject: Re: Successful Invaders In-Reply-To: <20060109.145110.12505.281024@webmail29.nyc.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Does dry ice give off CO2? I'm not knowledgable in this area. We used CO2, at school, to anesthisise(sp?) queens for AI. So, I don't think that trying to kill a hive with CO2 would be quick enough, nor effective enough. I know that soapy water is used by firefighters when they are called out to a bee spill. I haven't used it myself. So, I don't have an informed opinion. Kerosene works well, but then the equipment isn't really useable as far as the honey is concerned. Mark "waldig@netzero.com" wrote: dry ice gives off CO2 that can be used ...[to kill bees][without contaminating the frames with soapy water]. --------------------------------- Yahoo! DSL Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 18:21:23 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: mark berninghausen Subject: Re: Successful Invaders In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Brian, It won't work, in my opinion. Maybe in a small state that doesn't have a great need for commercially available pollination service. Maybe then the beekeepers of a state would have enough clout. But it is the people who need the bees the most who will have the most sway in your state legislators, not the beekeepers. There are either too few of you(us) or you(we) don't generate enough revenue to have influence where it would be needed. Just look how "effective" beekeepers have been against imports of forgien honey. The folks who need the honey have the money. The folks who make the honey ain't got that much money. And so it goes. But it may not hurt to try. Mark Brian Fredericksen wrote: After reading the latest posts on AHB I just don't understand why northern beekeepers en masse would not unite across state lines to put an end to shipment of bees . --------------------------------- Yahoo! Photos – Showcase holiday pictures in hardcover Photo Books. You design it and we’ll bind it! -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 18:47:18 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: mark berninghausen Subject: AHb in New York, an Update Comments: To: Beekeepers Organic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit During the 2005 season of Apiary Inspection, in New York State, samples of honeybees, from six different bee hives, were sent out for FABIS evaluation. At the winter meeting of the Empire State Honey Producers Association, in Syracuse, NY, on December 2, 2005, Apiary Inspection Program Supervisor Paul Cappy reported that five of the six samples had resulted in findings of that indicate that those samples were European. He also reported that the results of the sixth sample had not yet come back. The results of the last sample have come back. The FABIS test indicated that the full morphometric test should be done. It was. The results from this test indicate that this sixth sample of honeybees, collected from an apiary in NY, is Africanized. The hive that this sample of, now known, Africanized Honeybees came from was located, in a migratory beekeeper's apiary, in the Eastern Central part of NY state. Two Apiary Inspectors were working the apiary when the hives were "field tested" for indications of possible Africanization, one Inspector was driven back to his truck by the bees persist ant stinging. A sample of bees was collected, tagged and documented. Forms were filled out to request the FABIS test. The forms and the sample were sent out to a USDA Lab for analysis. The hive in question was put under a Quarantine and Abatement Order. The hive had very few bees in it. It is my understanding that the be keeper voluntarily depopulated this hive and moved the rest of the hives back to his home state. --------------------------------- Yahoo! Photos – Showcase holiday pictures in hardcover Photo Books. You design it and we’ll bind it! -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 19:07:42 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Successful Invaders In-Reply-To: <20060109.145110.12505.281024@webmail29.nyc.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit "waldig@netzero.com" wrote:I recall a post mentioning that dry ice gives off CO2 that can be used [without contaminating the frames with soapy water]. Thing about that, you have to have a source for the dry ice. I would love to use it, but we are so far back in the giggle weeds that nobody carries it for sale. I know Pensacola doesn't have a source and I'm not too sure about Mobile. Hardly ever get up to Montgomery. All three are the same distance from me - 90 miles. Dry ice would be great for treating wet supers for moth and beetle. Would do a pretty good job of eliminating hot colonies of bees too. Mike Bored to death because we can't watch the cotton grow - our main entertainment source. --------------------------------- Yahoo! DSL Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 19:15:02 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Can Mite Counts be Counted on? In-Reply-To: <20060110004641.15775.qmail@web34306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit "J. Waggle" wrote:Thus, their resistant bees (to varroa mite) actually may have been bees selected to produce less brood and to be less able to sustain mite population growth. Consequently, they also would have been less able to collect a surplus of honey. The study with which I'm associated doesn't use mite drops as a count criteria. We actually take bee samples and do an actual count of mites per number of bees; i.e. sample of 450 bees has a mite count of 15 mites and thus has a load level of 3 1/3 percent. Mike Located in lower Alabama __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 19:27:25 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Successful Invaders In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Brian Fredericksen wrote: After reading the latest posts on AHB I just don't understand why northern beekeepers en masse would not unite across state lines to put an end to shipment of bees across state lines ....... My guess is that the media and some politicians will figure out that this is crazy and borders will close with in the next 5 years. Its just common sense. Brain, Are you aware of the dependency that growers have for pollenation by bees located outside of their states? I think almond pollenation is the biggest crop dependent upon bee pollenation for high nut production. If California were refused the colonies needed to pollenate all of it's groves there wuold be untold almond producers put out of business. Even with the pollenation prices per hive jumping almost 300% in some cases there still was a shortage of colonies for pollenation last year. I agree that there needs to be some control on the influx of Africanized bees into the northern tier of states but shutting down the borders is not the sollution. In the southern states I think most of the knowledgable beekeepers have just accepted the notion that if they aren't coping with AFB hives now, they will be in the next five to ten years. Alabama has had closed borders to the transportation of bees into the state if they are on the comb. Caged queens and package bees are allowed in, but not hives of bees. We still got all the monsters that afflict bees. The closed borders didn't do a thing about stopping the parasites. Swarms of bees doen't go through state customs inspections, ya know. Mike --------------------------------- Yahoo! Photos Got holiday prints? See all the ways to get quality prints in your hands ASAP. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 19:42:05 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Combating "Successful" Invaders In-Reply-To: <9D95C2906FCCE04F836ECA17C4CE0921030C1258@UAEXCH.univ.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I think the best combative procedures against in influx of AHB would be for regional/state associations to start providing instrumental insemination (II) services for their members. Also, as part of the management process, the associations should start teaching their membership how to manage their hives so as to minimize the influx of AHB into their hives and to treat hives already infested with the AHBs. Personally, I'm trying my best to see if I can manage to get to Sue Cobey's II workshops this year and to start providing beekeepers in my area with II queens. The way I see it, the local beekeeper could provide his/her own virgin queens and the drone stock they want to use. I would provide the expertise to use that stock to produce II queens. Won't know how things work out until this summer or next. Mike Located in lower Alabama __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 21:07:26 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: AHb in New York, an Update In-Reply-To: <20060110024718.27616.qmail@web32103.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Mark writes: During the 2005 season of Apiary Inspection, in New York State, samples of honeybees, from six different bee hives, were sent out for FABIS evaluation. Reply: INteresting that you have 6 hot hives tested and only 1 with FABIS required more testing. So was the 1 hive that Id'd any hotter then the other 5 of european........What was done to get rid of the hot european bees here, noting that you mentioned what was done to the so-called AHB one? Were they destroyed also, or merely requeened the normal way? Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________ Yahoo! DSL – Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 21:21:52 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Combating "Successful" Invaders In-Reply-To: <20060110034205.47362.qmail@web53411.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Mike writes: Also, as part of the management process, the associations should start teaching their membership how to manage their hives so as to minimize the influx of AHB into their hives and to treat hives already infested with the AHBs. Reply: Sure your not talking beetles or mites here for how to? Would think you need to rehash what you need to actually do. Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________ Yahoo! DSL – Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 01:01:57 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: Successful Invaders On Mon, 9 Jan 2006 19:27:25 -0800, Mike Stoops wrote: >Brain, > Are you aware of the dependency that growers have for pollenation by bees located outside of their states? I think almond pollenation is the biggest crop dependent upon bee pollenation for high nut production. Brian responds We have about 2-3 dozen migratory beekeepers in the state here. I know several of them. I don't see why they and the almond business trumps my and other smaller beekeepers and the publics desire to keep AHB out. I don't think Mn voters would care much about almond pollinations needs if they thought they could do something proactive to keep AHB out. I grow apples for a living too. The way I figure it they should have thought about their pollination needs before investing in the trees. What I've read is that there are already huge increases in the ground already with more planned. Ya know what farming is a risky business. My other point is that in the southern USA infiltration of AHB may be impossible to stop. Thats not neccesarily the case in the northern US. If AHB does not migrate on its own to northern states we could probably keep it out by closing borders. Why would we not want to do that? In fact the northern states may be the only place to get EHB bees and queens someday in the US. I mean seriously does the income for 30 odd migratory beekeepers in this state outweigh the nightmare of dealing with the public and media's increased focus on bees and beekeepers? Those 30 odd migratory beekeepers need not lose ther livelihood altogether either. We see good honey crops here with 100+ pound averages quite common. Its not that hard to over winter honey bees up here either with less then 10% losses. From my perspective moving bees in and out of Mn is unnecessary and mostly benefits people outside of our state. I'd suggest that you're in this too deep if you think the bee and almond industry has enough pull to overcome john or jane doe's fear of "killer bees" !!!!! -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 10:32:49 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Can Mite Counts be Counted on? In-Reply-To: <20060110031502.22042.qmail@web53404.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All Joe wrote: > Thus, their resistant bees (to varroa mite) actually may have > been bees selected to produce less brood and to be less able to > sustain mite population growth. Consequently, they > also would have been less able to collect a surplus of honey. You can analyse this differently... If the low number of brood (and hence mites) is due to a longer life span of individual bees, then there is no change in possible honey gathering potential. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 04:20:04 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: Can Mite Counts be Counted on? In-Reply-To: <20060110031502.22042.qmail@web53404.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- Mike Stoops wrote: > The study with which I'm associated doesn't use mite > drops as a count criteria. We actually take bee > samples and do an actual count of mites per number > of bees; ... In the article they mention "mite population levels" and "mite infestation levels", I don’t see where they specify the method of how mite levels were determined. But I would assume that the method used would likely have been bee samples rather than mite drops because this would be the only way to accurately determine actual mite levels. For example, counting mites drops might reflect grooming behavior and researchers would be aware of this fact. __________________________________________ Yahoo! DSL – Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 07:24:56 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Morris Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 8 Jan 2006 to 9 Jan 2006 (#2006-6) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/9/2006 11:03:51 P.M. Central Standard Time, LISTSERV@listserv.albany.edu writes: Dry ice would be great for treating wet supers for moth and beetle. Would do a pretty good job of eliminating hot colonies of bees too. You can have it shipped to you, or depending on how much you need and how much you want to invest, you can make it yourself rather cheaply. CO2 cylinders are available and at the pressures that are in the commercial tanks, you can use a device that attached to the tank will form 1 pound cakes of the solid CO2 (dry ice) at least until the cylinder is about half full. Tim Morris Leoma Tennessee -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 07:25:39 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Can Mite Counts be Counted on? In-Reply-To: <20060110004641.15775.qmail@web34306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-76182033 > If one can manage to achieve low >mite counts and over all performance, then you may >have something. I think you should have added resistance to PMS. I've had colonies with low mite levels, good performance, and dying from Parasitic Mite Syndrome. Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.15/223 - Release Date: 1/6/2006 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 12:26:36 +0000 Reply-To: honeymountain@kilty.demon.co.uk Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: james kilty Organization: honey mountain Subject: Re: Successful Invaders In-Reply-To: <20060110020601.20666.qmail@web32110.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mon, 2006-01-09 at 18:06 -0800, mark berninghausen wrote: > Does dry ice give off CO2? Dry ice is solid CO2. Leave it in the warm and it "sublimates", that is evaporates. It does not melt but goes straight into gas form. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 04:37:13 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: Can Mite Counts be Counted on? In-Reply-To: <43C38D51.6090407@lineone.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- Dave Cushman wrote: > If the low number of brood (and hence mites) is due > to a longer life > span of individual bees, then there is no change in > possible honey > gathering potential. The article stated that "both brood area (number of brood cells) and the average honey crop harvested were higher in each year of the experiment in the so-called susceptible colonies (colonies with high mite loads) compared to the resistant colonies (low mite loads)!" It seems to suggest that if there was a longer life span in the low brood colonies, it did not seem to have a positive effect on honey production. __________________________________________ Yahoo! DSL – Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 04:54:41 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: Can Mite Counts be Counted on? In-Reply-To: <20060110004641.15775.qmail@web34306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello, Erik Osterlund asked me if I would post his letter as he is not a subscribed member. Would be nice to have more detail about the study as Erik mentions to help determine the specifics on how the test was done. I don't know if the manuscript is available on the internet, maybe the title would be a start or if anyone can obtain the manuscript that would be great! ----------> Joe wrote: ....To summarize, low mite levels have limited value > >unless accompanied by honey production and over all > >colony performance. Erik Writes: > Yes, honey production should always be a selection > factor, at least for > beekeepers making a living of their bees. > > Also I would like to put up a finger of caution > here. Is the method of > investigation described? I've learned that mostly > control and test groups > are put too close together in the same apiary. AS > far a distance as 200 > meters may sometimes be too close, but bigger > distance will make it > difficult to call the two groups to be in the same > apiary.) Also a good > question is if the two groups were the only bees in > the apiary or if > unselected bee colonies were present. Another good > question is how many > colonies in each grooup, and if it was a 'neutral' > group, how big that was. > Another factor would be the matings of the queens. > If you make a too close > inbreeding and if the drones come from too few bee > colonies, the > performance of the resulting colony will show > inbreeding factors that may > interfere with what you are measureing. > As bees drift a lot, all the time, of different > reasons, you will get > non-controlled mixes of bees in every colony. And > what you are planning for > with your control colonies will not be as you > planned. > So in a test like this, are you really measureing > what you think you are doing? > (read for example in 'The Hive and the Honey Bee' > (Drifting, Robbing), > 1992, pages 650-654) > > Erik > > > __________________________________________ Yahoo! DSL – Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 08:00:12 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Successful Invaders In-Reply-To: <9D95C2906FCCE04F836ECA17C4CE0921030C1258@UAEXCH.univ.alban y.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-76182033 > However, to successfully combat the spread of AHB from southern > producers, all Northern Beekeepers would have to unite... >...it would also require that the northern beekeepers meet their needs >from Northern suppliers... ...I do not know of a supplier or group of >suppliers able to meet Northern demand... And, that's the problem at this point. Raising northern bees and queens isn't difficult. The problem is in raising enough to meet the demand. It has taken me 7 years to feel confident that I can raise enough for my operation of about 800 colonies. I'm going to start selling stock this summer...2006. The first year, I can only sell queens. My goal is to sell 500. Nucs, I'm not able to sell yet. I'm building more nuc boxes this winter, and hope to have 200 nucs for sale in 2007. It all takes time...more so to do a proper job. and to me, quality is more important than quantity. So, how can we expect the hobbyist beekeepers to do the same. They don't have the expertise, or the resources. By resources, I mean colony numbers. Colony numbers to select good stock from which to rear acceptable queens. Expertise can be taught. As I said..it isn't difficult. Resources are different. That's why I feel it important to take advantage of State and local beekeeping organizations. While the average hobby beekeeper doesn't have the colony numbers to select breeder queens for the job, I believe when the beekeepers in an association pool their resources, they do have the colony numbers to make intelligent selection. Poll your members. There are colonies out there in the membership that never seem to need help. They winter well...year after year. They never need requeening, as they requeen themselves successfully, year after year. They don't show symptoms of Chalk, Sac, etc. They don't try to eat you alive when you manage them. The job can be done. More beekeepers just have to put their collective foot down, and say no more southern stock. Writing laws won't work. Self help will. Once a program is underway, you'll all be amazed at the quality of the stock you will be able to raise. All I can add is: Just do it! Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.15/223 - Release Date: 1/6/2006 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 13:01:34 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: AHb in New York, an Update Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>The [AHB] hive [in NY] in question was put under a Quarantine and Abatement Order. I'd love to put this hive through artificial winter conditions that mimic what north-eastern hives go through. We have to find out if feral Africanized colonies can survive the cold winter up north. If Africanized ferals can thrive up north, local beekeeper propagation of EHBs will slow down AHB but it will become dominant rather quickly. Just like the mites did. Waldemar Long Island, NY -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 13:03:19 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Successful Invaders Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>Does dry ice give off CO2? I believe Jerry mentioned this method not too long ago. I have not tried it for my self. I'd hate to spray a hive with soapy water as I would not want soap in the comb. Waldemar Long Island, NY -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 14:16:48 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jack Zielke Subject: Active bees In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hello, This is my first year in beekeeping. I am more of a lurker than anything for now. I am learning so much from this list. There is not a local beekeeping organization here so I really appreciate you all. It is the second week of January and I understand that in most of the Northern Hemisphere the bees are clustered. I thought that some beekeepers might like to see some flying bees here in the sunny south. http://beecam.chattanoogastate.edu/ It is just after 2:00PM Eastern and the bees in my back yard are very active. Jack Zielke Chattanooga, Tennessee -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 06:21:22 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Combating "Successful" Invaders In-Reply-To: <20060110052152.43609.qmail@web51614.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dee Lusby wrote:Reply: Sure your not talking beetles or mites here for how to? Would think you need to rehash what you need to actually do. Probably do need to rehash/rethink procedure. That's why the comments were posted. But..... We southern beekeepers need to have an established, workable procedure, or procedures, to be able to deal with hives that exhibit African Bee-like behavior. We don't need to wait until they get here to set up working procedures, especially if our hives are in an urban setting. Do we need to inspect the hives weekly to see if our queens are the marked ones we had originally installed? Has there been supercedure processes taking place? Have there been AHB swarms/colonies located in the area? Are the bee yards in question in an area subject to AHB take-over? I'm sure there are more questions to be asked, and answered, in order for us to be ready and equiped to deal with this new problem. Now is the time to get these things worked out, not when the AHBs get here. All comments, criticisms, conjectures, wags accepted and needed to try to get a handle on this. Mike Not wanting to be unprepared --------------------------------- Yahoo! DSL Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 06:42:59 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Combating AHB In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20060110073127.03a858d0@pop.together.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Michael Palmer wrote:(About queen replacement in the northern tier of states) Self help will. Once a program is underway, you'll all be amazed at the quality of the stock you will be able to raise. All I can add is: Just do it! A northern beekeeper speaks. A southern beekeeper replies, my own thoughts, not necessarily those of other beekeepers here in the south. Queens raised from local stock who exhibit successful behaviors and traits are the way to go IMHO. Queen replacement at the end of the honey flow or early fall provides fresh, young queens for the succeeding spring buildup (Also one step in swarm prevention). Queens from northern stock, according to current thought, should also be free of AHB traits. Git 'er done you northern beekeepers. Personally, I am hoping to provide locally generated, controlled genetics queens from my own local area down here. Working on a way to ensure that Africanized genetics are NOT incorporated into the mating scheme. Mike Located in southern Alabama --------------------------------- Yahoo! Photos – Showcase holiday pictures in hardcover Photo Books. You design it and we’ll bind it! -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 10:13:14 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Bogansky,Ronald J." Subject: Stopping the Spread MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Greetings, You can tell when winter arrives by the number of posts on BeeL. In the last week or two there have been some great posts discussing the spread of Africanized bees. Dee Lusby notes that it is possible to keep gentle bees in an Africanized area. I can't think of any reason she would report this if it is not true. The Lusbys have found a way to cope with the situation through breeding and management. We need to get as much detail as possible and try to understand all the factors. Unfortunately it is not "winter" in Arizona and I am sure the Lusbys are busy. I think most that have been following Dee's posts have somewhat of an idea as to their management system. What I am really interested in is how much of their "bee space" is shared with other beekeepers. If they pretty much control the areas where they are keeping bees then it appears they have found a way to control the problem through management and isolation. However, I don't know if they are affected by other beekeepers actions. I sure would like to find out. =20 A fun exercise at a bee meeting is to bring a topographical map and have all the beekeepers in attendance put an "X" on spots where they have apiaries located. Then take a compass and to scale draw a circle representing a normal flight area ( 2 - 5 miles?) around each location. In my neck of the woods most of the map will be inside a circle and many circles will intersect. This exercise does not take into account other beekeepers or migratory colonies. We are affected by our neighbors! Aaron did a great job, while responding to other comments suggesting otherwise, summarizing the need for pollination and how closing the borders is not possible. I agree and as far as 2006 is concerned not much can or will change. However I am sure, no make that very sure, that there things that can be done now and in the future to control this problem. I doubt regulations will change until an incident occurs and then, as Aaron mentioned, they will focus their attention on the backyard beekeeper, for all the wrong reasons that politicians normally use. We can do a lot to change all this. I believe Bob Harrison is correct when he states that all the problems are not associated with migratory movement. We have to stop buying queens and packages from Africanized areas and become more self reliant. I highly commend Mike Palmer and company for their efforts to do just that. However if your neighbor continues to buy bees from a questionable area you still run the risk of the genes sneaking in. Migratory operations will have to reassess the way they are moving bees in and out of Africanized areas. Again, this won't happen in 2006. But in can in the future. =20 If in five years, if we are still buying bees from the South and migratory operations are exactly the way they are today, we will have lost the battle and AHB will be moving freely in most states north or south. Everyone has to take some responsibility for this and change the way we keep bees. Ron Ron Bogansky=20 Kutztown, PA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 07:14:13 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: mark berninghausen Subject: Re: Why wouldn't results change? ( Successful Invaders) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Is it possible that the defensive behavior of AHb is due to queen physiology? I admit that I'm gropeing in the dark and probably don't know enough about what I am asking to be able to state my question in accurate language. But my question still exists, so I will do my best with what I have. Does the AHb queen give off the same queen pheremones that the European Honeybee queen does? It has been my experience that, when inspecting a colony, I have observed highly defensive honeybees often to bee queenless or they appeared queenless. Things like, bees running on the comb, lack of or no capped brood, no egges present or multiple eggs present, in the cells and other characteristics that don't come to mind just now. Could it possibily be that AHb queens have other mechanisms that keep their daughters from laying eggs, and thereby keep the colony calm? Could it be that AHb queens lay so well that that, in itself ,supresses the workers ability to lay eggs? Thereby causing the colony to "think" (for lack of a better word to say it with) that it is queenless? I have heard that AHb colonies are good honey producers. I don't know that this is true, it's just what I have picked up and therefore could be bunk. But, let's say, for argument's sake that that statment is true. That AHb colonies are good producers. And I'll add, of honey and pollen. If so, I would like to point out, so are queenless colonies. Maybe not in the long run. But I have encountered many queenless colonies, in my years as an Apiary Inspector, that had just as much honey as their neighbors and some with more. Anecdotal this observation may have been, but can you explain it to me? To my way of thinking, the colony was doing what it could to survive, gathering honey while others were trying to replace the absent queen. And being highly defensive so as not to loss their stores to neighbors. Mark Berninghausen The opinions expressed herein are those of the author, and do not, in any way, reflect or represent the opinion(s) or knowledge of anyone else. mwb "D. Murrell" wrote: When I requeened my AHB hives, the bees lost most of their AHB type defensiveness within a week. --------------------------------- Yahoo! Photos Ring in the New Year with Photo Calendars. Add photos, events, holidays, whatever. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 12:31:13 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Combating AHB In-Reply-To: <20060110144259.34607.qmail@web53408.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-71A329 > Personally, I am hoping to provide locally generated, controlled > genetics queens from my own local area down here... >Mike Located in southern Alabama I really should refrain from calling the bees we northern beekeepers should stop buying as "southern" bees. I really don't mean to dump on you all. If any take it that way, I apologize. Should I call them local, or what? Non-local? Certainly "foreign" won't do. Southern bees are great bees...for the South. Even here, they brood up well, and make good honey crops. They just don't winter all that great. And many are very susceptible to Chalk. It's not a Northern/Southern thing. It's a local/imported thing. Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.15/223 - Release Date: 1/6/2006 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 13:39:29 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Morris Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 8 Jan 2006 to 9 Jan 2006 (#2006-6) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I was looking through the ABJ for January, and noticed that the Morris Family Apiary for Ga was not selling in this issue. Have they left the business? Tim -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 14:00:38 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Combating AHB In-Reply-To: <20060110144259.34607.qmail@web53408.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It stuck me, in this discussion, that I am not as informed as I should be in regard to AHB. The first problem I found is the use of AHB. There are many AHB races. We are really only talking about Apis mellifera scutellata. The race has certain characteristics, as do all races of bees, but they follow a typical bell curve, with some characteristics being predominate, but not universal. So just as we can breed a better Italian, you can breed a better Apis mellifera scutellata. That appears to be happening in South America, and my guess, Arizona. What we have with Apis mellifera scutellata is that their aggressive nature peaks a bit on the early side compared to other races of bees. But there is nothing to stop breeding a gentler bee. All we are doing is moving toward the lower slope of the behavior bell curve and attempting to reduce aggressiveness. All the talk about excluding "AHB" will fail since the only way to identify AHB is genetic, since you can also have EHB with AHB markers. Plus, you can have "gentle" Apis mellifera scutellata which are on the lower slope of the bell curve. However, they may move, over time, back to the top of the curve. Aggressiveness will not identify AHB since EHB are aggressive at times. Gentleness will not identify AHB, since they can be gentle. I know of no queen breeders who submit their stock to DNA tests to ensure their purity. We do know that Apis mellifera scutellata is now from California to Georgia to stay and has been found in NY and Maine (documented) and, without question, in many other states. So Apis mellifera scutellata will eventually be in whole or in part in all the US. So what do we do? If we close State borders, we move the problem from a public acceptance that "there is not much we can do about it", to "our borders will protect us". In the former, the beekeeper is the first line of defense. With the latter, any bee is suspect and the beekeeper has only made matters worse by having all those troublesome bees in the State. You are, after all, prohibiting bees from moving into the State, so why not just remove all bees and problem solved. Any stinging incident, from EHB or AHB will engender the same result, prohibition of bees. Plus, we cannot control the borders. Canada has been mentioned and its closing of the borders to control Varroa. Enough said. For those who have been around long enough, the same was tried with Tracheal, but in the US. That did not work either. Instead, a fairly simple approach, which mirrors what has been happening with bees and beekeepers since the dawn of time, should be practiced. Re-queen an aggressive colony. There is no certainty that you are removing a colony with AHB or EHB genes, but we have never worried about that before. We were only worried about the trait that we wanted to remove from the colony. Plus, you can send the bees in for a DNA check to see if they are AHB. As time goes on, that step will probably disappear, just as most do not send bees in for other problems. Back to my original comment, that I am not as informed as I should be on Apis mellifera scutellata. I think we are still in the discovery phase of the bee, especially how it behaves in colder climates and why. Personally, I believe what was forecast: that they will move no further than coastal regions of Virginia, and then only with a warm winter. Otherwise, they will stay south. It may be that the North will be the repository of EHB genes which can be provided to the South for queen breeding. But as long as a place like Maine needs 60,000 colonies of bees to pollinate blueberries and California a million for Almonds, the bees will come from the Southern US and move into other States. Maine is not their only destination, but the pollinators go to NY, PA, NJ, MA, IN, and across the Northern US. Some will have AHB genes and will be managed by beekeepers. They will also have Tracheal, AFB, EFB, Small Hive Beetles, and Varroa, so what's new? Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 14:18:56 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: mark berninghausen Subject: Re: Why wouldn't results change? ( Successful Invaders) In-Reply-To: <20060110151413.15344.qmail@web32108.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Has anyone ever thought of seeing what would happen if an ampuel of queen pherimone, from known European honeybee queens, was inserted into an AHb hive? Anyone care to guess? If anyone(you listening Nic) trys this, and it has benefitial effects, I want some of the credit. Mark Berninghausen The opinions expressed herein are those of the author, and do not, in any way, reflect or represent the opinion(s) or knowledge of anyone else. mwb "D. Murrell" wrote: When I requeened my AHB hives, the bees lost most of their AHB type defensiveness within a week. --------------------------------- Yahoo! Photos Got holiday prints? See all the ways to get quality prints in your hands ASAP. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 15:15:23 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mea McNeil Subject: Re: Combating AHB In-Reply-To: <43C40456.9060308@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I know of no queen breeders who submit their stock to DNA tests to > ensure their purity. The California state lab routinely tests the queens of Northern California breeders for mtDNA. It is the rule for shipment to Canada. Mea McNeil -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 19:43:24 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: more on morphometrics This might be of interest: http://publish.edpsciences.org/articles/apido/abs/2006/01/M6009/M6009.html Regards, Dick Allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 19:06:02 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Marron Subject: Why wouldn't results change? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mark wrote >>>if an ampoule of queen pheromone, from known European honeybee = queens, was inserted into an AHb hive?<<< =20 Mark, If what you say has merit, then why wouldn't killing the queen and = introducing a new one, immediately calm the bees down. It doesn't. I'll tell you a weird thing I discovered with a partially AHB hive I = had. It had so much brood I decided to do a split. I despaired of = finding the queen. I took a deep of brood from the hive and brushed all = the bees back into the hive, put on a queen excluder and put the brood = back on the hive overnight. ( can you imagine the mess of bees I had in = the air with that operation?) The next day I gave that deep with, = attendant nurse bees, a new queen and set them up on the opposite side = of the apiary. That split never gave me a moments problem. They were as = gentle as lambs from day 1. The remainder of the colony was so vicious I = had to move them. I tried the same trick again with different results = (with 2 new queens). I finally had to kill the colony.=20 It seems that the bees that went from nursing to foraging in the = presence of the AHB queen had different characteristics. Two more things = I noticed. The difference from shade to sun made a difference. Also, = they respond so fast that it seems they may not communicate danger only = via pheromones. I swear they communicated by sound as well. Tiny klaxons = I'll bet. Dick Marron -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 18:30:45 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: mark berninghausen Subject: Re: Combating AHB In-Reply-To: <43C4400B.3020804@onthefarm.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bees are shipped to Canada from California? I don't think so. The borders are closed to bee movement both ways. As far as I know. Otherwise migratory pollinators would be goimg across the border in to Nova Scotia en masse to pollinate blueberries in the spring. If you are sure about what you have said here, wouldn't the Canadians be able to go to CA to pollinate almonds? mwb Mea McNeil wrote: It is the rule for shipment to Canada. Mea McNeil --------------------------------- Yahoo! Photos – Showcase holiday pictures in hardcover Photo Books. You design it and we’ll bind it! -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 19:10:11 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: more on morphometrics In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dick Allen writes: Yes it is. May I ask what cell size each different type were reared in? Same or different? Can that information be had? Any suggestion as to how to find out? Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 22:49:49 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter John Keating Subject: Re: bees to Canada MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Queens may be shipped to Canada since last year. Queens only. You are correct in saying that if the border was open we would all be down in California! Peter > Bees are shipped to Canada from California? I don't think so. The borders are closed to bee movement both ways. As far as I know. mwb -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 19:12:30 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: more on morphometrics In-Reply-To: <20060111031011.63909.qmail@web51615.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dee, apparently you read the abstract, so I know nothing more than you do. It comes from ‘Apidologie’. You can go here to receive email alerts when new articles are published. Unfortunately, you’d need to pay for reading the full article, but the abstracts are free: http://www.edpsciences.org/journal/index.cfm?edpsname=apido I think after a period of 18 months the articles become available for anyone to read free from the site: http://www.edpsciences.org/journal/index.cfm? edpsname=apido&niv1=contents&niv2=archives (watch the wrap) Wish I could offer more for you, but.... Regards, Dick Allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 00:20:47 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Rob Green Subject: stopping the spread In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I thought I'd pass along the original posting (which contained among other things that self policing doesn't work) to the board of my state association. The email had the correct attribution, and it clearly wasn't my message (although it could well have been). I got this thoughtful reply from one board member. quoting begins That depends if you make a living at beekeeping which you Rob do not with 10 hives .Its kind hard to feed your family with 10 hives. How dare you even talk about real beekeepers that do it for a living whether they cross state lines or not. If you want to make MORE enemies ,I guess you have done your job.Just keep it up and see where it gets you quoting ends This has been a real special evening -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 09:56:32 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Successful Invaders In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20060110073127.03a858d0@pop.together.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all Michael Palmer wrote: > the average hobby beekeeper doesn't have the colony numbers to > select breeder queens for the job, I believe when the beekeepers > in an association pool their resources, they do have the colony > numbers to make intelligent selection. This is a bigger deal than most beekeepers think ! By assessing colonies of several (the more the better) beekeepers in an area, you can speed up your breeding process to arrive at quality stock to raise the queens from. The more people recognise the quality of the queens, the more support the project will get. It does not happen overnight, it is a progressive process of improvement... But luckily, some big stages of improvement will be noticed in the first few seasons, the degree of improvement drops off a bit every year, but each step is still a step forward as you are building on previous year's improvement. I wish you all success in establishing Northern bred stock, as I am a firm believer in 'horses for courses' and my belief has been re-enforced by my own breeding work and that conducted by several co-operative groups in UK and Ireland. Grab the bull by the horns and 'go for it' ! Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 05:55:04 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Killing bees with CO2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/01/2006 05:01:58 GMT Standard Time, LISTSERV@listserv.albany.edu writes: Dry ice would be great for treating wet supers for moth and beetle. Would do a pretty good job of eliminating hot colonies of bees too. How about a CO2 fire extinguisher? Chris -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 18:01:18 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: Combating AHB MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Tue, 10 Jan 2006 14:00:38 -0500, Bill Truesdell wrote: >I know of no queen breeders who submit their stock to DNA tests to >ensure their purity. We do know that Apis mellifera scutellata is now >from California to Georgia to stay and has been found in NY and Maine >(documented) and, without question, in many other states. So Apis >mellifera scutellata will eventually be in whole or in part in all the US. > Brian writes I just spoke with Strachan Apiaries in California today to learn more about AHB in that area and what they are doing in their operation. I have purchased their new world carniolan bees for 10 yrs now and like how they winter and produce. Anyhow she mentioned that because they ship to Canada thay must have DNA data to ship so they do test. So I assume this is a requirement for any bees (queens/pkg's) shipping out of USA to Canada. Does anybody know more about this? Based on the general attitude on this board that beekeepers will manage AHB just fine & dandy, I would expect that this kind of governmental requirement would be equally frowned upon. We would not want any US states or the feds to ask for data to certify AHB free right ? Åfterall there's nothing we can do about it..... -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 07:15:01 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: more on morphometrics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The paper mentioned, titled: "Morphometric differences in a single wing cell can discriminate Apis mellifera racial types", by Tiago Maurício FRANCOY, et al. describes a method of identifying honey bee races using the shape of a single section of the bee wing. It does not depend on the size of the bee, but on the proportion of the segments of this "cell". quoted highlights: Generally speaking, Africanized bees are smaller than honey bees of European origin. Various traits are necessary to provide adequate discrimination among the various types of honey bees, especially when the workers of the bee races are similar in size. Most attempts to differentiate honey bee groups based on morphological data have used multiple body characteristics, including (worker) body size, hair length, wing length and width, pigmentation, and proboscis length; such studies require time-consuming mounting and measuring of various body parts. We were able to discriminate the three honey bee racial types based on information concerning a single wing cell (radial cell), using a digitalized wing image, greatly facilitating and speeding analysis. This methodology is simple and it could be extended to finer discriminations between types of bees with the addition of further landmarks. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 08:48:50 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Howard Kogan Subject: AHB I completely agree with Michael Palmer that the answer to the threat of AHB is local-in this case-Northern queen and package production. And since most agree that all beekeeping is local any locally produced bees should work better in your locale for many reasons. I am very sure that those of you with the resouces to produce Northern packages, will be rewarded with a very large group of eager customers. It is a lot of work but I bet it pays better than selling honey. Howard Kogan -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 08:54:58 -0500 Reply-To: janet.katz@earthlink.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Janet A. Katz" Subject: Re: Combating AHB In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Brian wrote: "So I assume this is a requirement for any bees (queens/pkg's) shipping out of USA to Canada. Does anybody know more about this?" The USDA form to certify queens for export to Canada can be found at http://www.aphis.usda.gov/vs/ncie/iregs/animals/ca_hbqn.pdf Medhat Nasr, Alberta Apiculturist, occasional posts to this message group. Maybe he can provide more details? Janet A. Katz Chester, NJ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 08:55:45 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Combating AHB Comments: To: Brian Fredericksen >Based on the general attitude on this board that beekeepers will manage AHB just fine & dandy, I don't think that is the general attitude at all. I would say more people DON'T want them than do. Just my take pb -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 09:42:41 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juan Carlos =?iso-8859-1?Q?Fern=E1ndez?= Campos Subject: Re: bees to Canada In-Reply-To: <004c01c61662$139b78c0$2780a9d1@user> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain could any one tell me the price of a queen arround your places?, you know, Min, Max, average price. I think that someone arround here is trying to pass a cat for a hare. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 09:44:14 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lee Senecal Subject: Re: Killing bees with CO2 In-Reply-To: <282.3bc81d1.30f63e08@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed >From: CSlade777@AOL.COM >Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology > >To: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu >Subject: Re: [BEE-L] Killing bees with CO2 >Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 05:55:04 EST > >In a message dated 11/01/2006 05:01:58 GMT Standard Time, >LISTSERV@listserv.albany.edu writes: >How about a CO2 fire extinguisher? > >Chris > > >The CO2 extinguisher works perfectly to kill a hive - covers off and a good >shot of CO2, covers >back on, another good shot of CO2 into the entrance >and plug the entrance. Wait a few miniutes >then split the hive bodies, tilt them apart and dump the rest of the >extinguisher charge directly >into the center of the hive brood frames. >Close the hive again and check it later (dead). > >Many Rural Fire Departments will supply the extinguisher and/or refill for >a minimal charge or no >charge to beekeepers who will help with "bee >problem calls". > >Lee > > > >-- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 08:33:09 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: more on morphometrics In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Peter: especially when the workers of the bee races are similar in size. Reply: Sounds favorable so far, but how close is this "races are similar" actually noted in the paper? For if one goes into the fire to breed similar in size to correct for breeding purposes, how would this pertain to measurements by race? REgards, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, ARizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 07:53:58 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: OhioBeeFarmer Subject: Apitherapy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I received this message and was hoping someone could help. -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------------------------ Hi there! I am looking for someone who does apitherapy in central Ohio. = Do you have any ideas? =20 Your help is greatly appreciated! =20 Kim Turner kturner@shannonstaffing.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 20:38:40 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Alden Marshall Subject: Re: Can Mite Counts be Counted on? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dave posted: > > You can analyse this differently... > Or another way Dave, If the bees are expending much of their energy and resources in raising brood and throwing it out because of mite contamination they don't have as much time to be doing other chores. Any end to supposition? :>) Alden Marshall B-Line Apiaries Hudson, NH 03051 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2006 11:41:08 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: A little poetry to brighten winter! Song of the Queen Bee E.B White New Yorker Magazine 1945 "The breeding of the bee," says a United States Department of Agriculture bulletin on artificial insemination, has always been handicapped by the fact that the queen mates in the air with whatever drone she encounters." When the air is wine and the wind is free and the morning sits on the lovely lea and sunlight ripples on every tree Then love-in-air is the thing for me I'm a bee, I'm a ravishing, rollicking, young queen bee, That's me. I wish to state that I think it's great, Oh, it's simply rare in the upper air, It's the place to pair With a bee. Let old geneticists plot and plan, They're stuffy people, to a man; Let gossips whisper behind their fan. (Oh, she does? Buzz, buzz, buzz!) My nuptial flight is sheer delight; I'm a giddy girl who likes to swirl, To fly and soar And fly some more, I'm a bee. And I wish to state that I'll always mate With whatever drone I encounter. There's a kind of a wild and glad elation In the natural way of insemination; Who thinks that love is a handicap Is a fuddydud and a common sap, For I am a queen and I am a bee, I'm devil-may-care and I'm fancy-free, The test tube doesn't appeal to me, Not me, I'm a bee. And I'm here to state that I'll always mate With whatever drone I encounter. Mares and cows. by calculating, Improve themselves with loveless mating, Let groundlings breed in the modern fashion, I'll stick to the air and the grand old passion; I may be small and I'm just a bee But I won't have science improving me, Not me, I'm a bee. On a day that's fair with a wind that's free, Any old drone is a lad for me. I've no flair for love moderne, It's far too studied, far too stern, I'm just a bee---I'm wild, I'm free, That's me. I can't afford to be too choosy; In every queen there's a touch of floozy, And it's simply rare In the upper air And I wish to state That I'll always mate With whatever drone I encounter. Man is a fool for the latest movement, He broods and broods on race improvement; What boots it to improve a bee If it means the end of ecstasy? (He ought to be there On a day that's fair, Oh, it's simply rare. For a bee.) Man's so wise he is growing foolish, Some of his schemes are downright ghoulish; He owns a bomb that'll end creation And he wants to change the sex relation, He thinks that love is a handicap, He's a fuddydud, he's a simple sap; Man is a meddler, man's a boob, He looks for love in the depths of a tube, His restless mind is forever ranging, He thinks he's advancing as long as he's changing, He cracks the atom, he racks his skull, Man is meddlesome, man is dull, Man is busy instead of idle, Man is alarmingly suicidal, Me, I am a bee. I am a bee and I simply love it, I am a bee and I'm darn glad of it, I am a bee, I know about love: You go upstairs, you go above, You do not pause to dine or sup, The sky won't wait ---it's a long trip up; You rise, you soar, you take the blue, It's you and me, kid, me and you, It's everything, it's the nearest drone, It's never a thing that you find alone. I'm a bee, I'm free. If any old farmer can keep and hive me, Then any old drone may catch and wife me; I'm sorry for creatures who cannot pair On a gorgeous day in the upper air, I'm sorry for cows that have to boast Of affairs they've had by parcel post, I'm sorry for a man with his plots and guile, His test-tube manner, his test-tube smile; I'll multiply and I'll increase As I always have---by mere caprice; For I am a queen and I am a bee, I'm devil-may-care and I'm fancy-free, Love-in-air is the thing for me, Oh, it's simply rare In the beautiful air, And I wish to state That I'll always mate With whatever drone I encounter. * * * Best wishes! Peter Borst Danby NY -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2006 09:02:01 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: HarrisonRW@AOL.COM Subject: Honey from India MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Can anyone verify for me the idea that honey from India could be bought at the dock in Montreal, Quebec, Canada for .06/lb in the early 1980s? Today you can purchase a 1lb. plastic bear of "Little Bee Honey" product of India for $1.99 at a local discount store. The honey is very dark. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2006 15:56:49 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: A Successful Invader MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Keith, > Who is selling patented bees? > I may be wrong, as many already believe so, but I think anyone selling Buckfast, Russians, NWC, SMR, Etc, or any number of queens with a name other than their Latin name is possibly patented. I do think that Purvis has a patent on a queen or a process of breeding them. . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2006 17:30:29 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lanfeust Subject: Re: Artisanal Honey In-Reply-To: Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit This is a very interesting topic. In may 2004, I took part in a preliminary consultation round organized by the Quebec Ministery of food, fisheries and agriculture. They had - and still have - a project of law to regulate the use of "produit fermier" (farm or farmer product ?), "produit artisanal" (artisanal product) and "produit du terroir". This project was, I think, mainly inspired by the experience of some European countries and by the organic regulation. >From my notes and from the documents of the meeting, the proposed definition for "produit artisanal") was based on 3 pilars (my free - more or less adequat - translation): - exploitant travaillant à son compte (producer producing for his own business, namely an artisnal product can not be subcontracted nor beeing produced by a brandname company) - mode de fabrication traditionnel (produced by traditional processes) - matières premières traditionnelles (only traditional raw material used) I remeber I reacted on the second item. It may be applied in countries of long history that want to protect an existing high quality local production from unfair low quality production that could destroy the reputation of a name (let's say 15 years old balsamic vinegar of Molene in Italia for example). It may be difficult to apply in new countries with short artisanal and food history where markets are mainly to be devloped. I also wondered if using polystyrene hives and plastic frames was very traditional. The aim of focusing on the mean of production is to warranty the quality of the final product. So when extending the "artisnal product" concept to honeys, may be heating or blending would be better criteria. So the extension of "artisnal product" to food product may be a case by case exrecise. > > IMO most beekeepers in the USA put little effort into the honey their > bees produce. The mentality is extracting must be done as quickly as > possible and the larger the volume per day processed the better..that > kind of honey has a label too... its called a commodity, most > commodities are plentiful in supply and low in value or price. Good point. If all honeys are just generic honey, than I am afraid there will be soon no place for 20 $/hr beekeepers. But I hope there are enough flowers, honeys flavours and honeys qualities to satisfy all consumers and fit all prices. Manuka honey is such an example ! > To think that a beekeeper has little influence on the production and > subsequent processing of honey is IMO really quite simplistic and > unfortunate. I though there had been enough discussions on the list about ways to produce and process honeys to be convinced that beekeepers are - at least for a part - responsible for the quality (and safety which is another matter) of their honeys. > Do you begin to label some of your floral honey as > Artisanal honey in preparation for this trend, and > gain an early advantage in this emerging market nitch? With regard to the definition of artisanal product, I think "artisanal product" words will mean the meaning you will put in them. If you, and your local community of beekeepers, define the requirements of an artisanal honey, stick to it, implemante an audit/certification/exclusion system, then consumers will know what is an artisanal honey. Your system may not be perfect but it will be better than the clearest full blended overheated overfiltered honey - that never cristallises - on the shelves of you local favorite Wall Mart. Your consumers may say for example that an artisanal honey is a honey produced by local beekeepers on local flowers, non heated, without the use of pesticide, etc. Your job to promote your way of working, your artisanal production. But if you are just using words without sense in order to take advangate of a trend on the market, you may earn more money on short term, but consumers will sooner or later feel that words on your labels are meaningless. You - and other artisanal honeys producers in the same time - will loose their confidence and you will ruin a niche market. So sad for good local floral honeys, isn't it ? Hervé Laval, Qc, Canada -- Hervé www.emelys.com -- http://www.fastmail.fm - The professional email service -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2006 17:08:49 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: morphometrics. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Iggy, > [Now, why would you WANT to raise smaller bees? That only makes testing more > difficult and slower. > So colonies can more easily defend against and control varroa on their own without the use of treatments of any kind. Testing probably should not be needed especially if the colony is gentle, if overly defensive just requeen or excommunicate the existing queen and let the colony make a new one, this always works for me. . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2006 18:11:58 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: More Thoughts on Africanized MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, > http://www.killerbeeguy.com/ > This guy is a prime example of when I say "beekeepers are their own worst enemies." AHB are not killer bees, AHB are not aggressive but defensive as are any bee with a stinger, AHB are not all defensive just as not all EHB are gentle. We as beekeepers should be presenting a much better image of bees, it is no wonder to me that most of the USA population are deathly afraid of honey bees and a high percent than actually are think they are deathly allergic to bee stings. Pretty much, in my opinion, a dumb lot of beekeepers and Government officials that are promoting AHB as if they actually are killer bees. Just when will beekeepers stop spreading missed information? . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 14:19:24 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: mark berninghausen Subject: Re: Why wouldn't results change? ( Successful Invaders) In-Reply-To: <20060110151413.15344.qmail@web32108.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Has anyone ever thought of seeing what would happen if an ampuel of queen pherimone, from known European honeybee queens, was inserted into an AHb hive? Anyone care to guess? If anyone(you listening Nic) trys this, and it has benefitial effects, I want some of the credit. Mark Berninghausen The opinions expressed herein are those of the author, and do not, in any way, reflect or represent the opinion(s) or knowledge of anyone else. mwb "D. Murrell" wrote: When I requeened my AHB hives, the bees lost most of their AHB type defensiveness within a week. --------------------------------- Yahoo! Photos Got holiday prints? See all the ways to get quality prints in your hands ASAP. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 15:05:17 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: mark berninghausen Subject: Re: Combating AHB In-Reply-To: <43C40456.9060308@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bill Truesdell, Nothing about what you have said by me asking this question. I don't think it will any way. Especially know that no critisism is intended by my question. I respect you and what you have said here. Very well put, in my opinion. Aren't we talking about Apis mellifera scutellata crossed with Apis mellifera mellifera? Or Apis mellifera scutellata X Apis mellifera carnica? If I'm not asking the right question or not asking it in the right way, I plead to the same condition as Bill Truesdell. Lack of being "as informed as I should be in regard to AHb. Mark Berninghausen The thoughts and opinions expressed herein are mine and mine alone. Anyone assuming otherwise is mistaken. And any assumptions drawn are incorrect. Bill Truesdell wrote: We are really only talking about Apis mellifera scutellata. --------------------------------- Yahoo! Photos Got holiday prints? See all the ways to get quality prints in your hands ASAP. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 13:32:57 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: bob darrell Subject: Re: Killing bees with CO2 In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v728) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 11-Jan-06, at 9:44 AM, Lee Senecal wrote: >> >> >> The CO2 extinguisher works perfectly to kill a hive - covers off >> and a good shot of CO2, covers >back on, another good shot of CO2 >> into the entrance and plug the entrance. Wait a few miniutes >> Hi Lee, Chris and all I may be shooting in the dark, but I believe that CO2 fire extinguishers are no longer legal in Ontario. I am speaking of extinguishers that use CO2 only to put out fires(mainly in electrical equipment), not those that use a CO2 cartridge to shoot another chemical on the fire. CO2 extinguishers have a long horn (18-24" long and 3-4" wide at the mouth) with an insulated handle to protect the user from the cold temperatures produced when used. They certainly would do the job with no messy chemicals on the comb if they are still available. The main danger( other than frostbite) is that they quickly displace the air in a closed space(not a big problem in a beeyard) which becomes a problem for the firefighter. Bob Darrell Caledon, Ontario Canada 80W44N -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 14:04:02 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: more on morphometrics Comments: To: Dee Lusby Dee writes >to breed similar in size to correct for breeding purposes, >how would this pertain to measurements by race? The paper acknowledges that identifying by size is not all that accurate. Wing vein pattern is much more accurate and it ignores size. Their aim was to make wing vein identification easier and quicker. Of course, there may be hybrids that are not clearly one or another. Peter -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 11:43:13 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Patented bees In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Keith Malone wrote: anyone selling Buckfast, Russians, NWC, SMR, Etc, or any number of queens with a name other than their Latin name is possibly patented.When replicating a patented item, isn't the person doing the replication supposed to pay a fee for each item replicated for sale? Query: To whom do we send our fees to when we try to breed Buckfast queens, Russian queens, NWC queens (Sue Cobey?), the SMRs (Baton Rouge Bee Lab?)? As far as I know production of any of thses strains of bees is allowed without compensation to any one person. Am I mistaken? Mike Located in lower Alabama --------------------------------- Yahoo! Photos Got holiday prints? See all the ways to get quality prints in your hands ASAP. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 14:55:45 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: successful invader MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline There is a group worried about AHB being identified in northern states. In fact, I had one NYS person tell me 'if we get AHB's, I'll lose every yard but one, because of my proximity to people'. They are, unfortunately, here. Even if their overwintering success is zero= , every spring more will be introduced by the pollinators. Instead of worrying about whether they are 'here', (and accusing those who maintain AHB's are here of crying WOLF) every beekeeper should requeen any hive showing signs of being aggressive. Stop arguing about definations, and do the job of a responsible beekeeper. Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 15:00:19 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: successful invader MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lloyd wrote, "Stop arguing about definations, and do the job of a responsible beekeeper." How does one make responsible beekeepers of those who aren't? Aaron Morris - wondering who'll tie the bell on the old cat's tail? -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 11:58:33 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: More Thoughts on Africanized In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Keith Malone wrote ..... a dumb lot of beekeepers and Government officials that are promoting AHB as if they actually are killer bees. Just when will beekeepers stop spreading missed information? Keith Problem is, some of 'em are. And you can't tell until they do their thing. If someone gets severly injured, or worse - killed, because I knew I had a hot hive but didn't know if they were killer bees or just a very hot European or a combination of AHB/European, I would have that on my conscience, plus I would probably have a law suit on my hands that would take everything I own away. I would rather operate on the side of caution than otherwise. There is documented proof that "some" of these bees can kill. Prudence would dictate that all beekeepers operate on the side of caution rather than a wait-and-see basis. Correct me if my thoughts are not presented clearly, or I am operating from a misimformed stance. Mike Located in lower Alabama where it's not an if situation but rather a when situation __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 12:48:28 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: 'World Apitherapy Day' to Celebrate Health Benefits of Bee Products MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII ‘WORLD APITHERAPY DAY' TO CELEBRATE HEALTH BENEFITS OF BEE PRODUCTS First annual event marks birth of scientist who studied bee venom (MIAMI, FL, 1/10/2006) – March 30, 2006, will mark the first annual celebration of 'World Apitherapy Day," an event designed to enhance international understanding of the therapeutic use and health benefits of bee products. See: www.worldapitherapyday.org Apitherapy is the use of bee hive products such as honey, propolis, bee-collected pollen, beeswax, drone larvae extract, bee venom, and royal jelly to maintain good health and in the treatment of a variety of medical conditions. (Propolis is a resinous substance collected by bees from plants and trees and is used to coat the inside of the beehive and the honeycomb cells with an antiseptic layer. Royal jelly is a substance produced by young worker bees and fed to queens. For more information on Apitherapy, go to: www.apitherapy.com or www.apitherapy.org ) The use of bee products as 'green medicine" is growing worldwide. A recently-concluded program in Cuba, sponsored by the Apitherapy Commission of Apimondia, trained 600 medical personnel to treat conditions such as antibiotic-resistant infections, septicemia and burns. (Apimondia is the International Federation of Beekeepers' Associations. See: www.apimondia.org ) A similar program, co-sponsored by the United Nations, is being planned in Burkina Faso. 'Bee hive products offer tremendous benefits to developing nations in need of low-cost, indigenous and self-sustaining health care systems," said Dr. Moisés Asís, one of the international coordinators of Bees for Life - World Apitherapy Network Inc. See: http://beesforlife.org/ Moisés said March 30 was chosen for the first annual World Apitherapy Day because it is the birth date of Dr. Philipp Terc (formerly Filip Tertsch), the first scientific researcher to investigate the medical uses of 'apitoxin," or bee venom. Terc was born on March 30, 1844, in Praporiste, Bohemia (Czech Republic). Terc's home town is also near Passau, Germany, the location of the upcoming 4th German Congress and Workshop on Apitherapy (March 24-29, 2006). Participants in that event will visit Praporiste to meet Czech beekeepers and apitherapists. Dr. Stefan Stangaciu, a specialist in family medicine and president of the German Apitherapy Society, is the main presenter at the Apitherapy conference in Passau. Stangaciu has presented scientific papers on Apitherapy at more than 100 conferences, seminars and workshops in 34 countries. Products promoting World Apitherapy Day are available at: www.cafepress.com/apitherapy (All proceeds will go to the World Apitherapy Network.) The latest news and information about Apitherapy is available at Apitherapy News: www.apitherapy.blogspot.com In August, Apitherapy researchers from around the world will gather at the 1st International Conference on the Medicinal Use of Honey in Malaysia. See: http://www.honey2006.kk.usm.my/ - END – CONTACT: Dr. Moisés Asís, 305-349-1283, E-Mail: moisesasis@comcast.net; Dr. Stefan Stangaciu, E-Mail: drstangaciu@apitherapy.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 15:22:47 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: more on morphometrics In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Borst wrote: > Their aim was to make wing vein identification easier and quicker. Of > course, there may be hybrids that are not clearly one or another. This is an excellent technique begging for a good computer programmer and scanner. From what I understand, it is not unlike reading fingerprints, with distances of specific vein characteristics yielding identification. First, there will need to be some tedious mapping combined with DNA readings to get a good correlation so you can pick out hybrids. This technique could be imported to a home computer (with a scanner) and DIY identification. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 15:49:32 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Combating AHB In-Reply-To: <20060110230517.53942.qmail@web32114.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit mark berninghausen wrote: > Bill Truesdell, > Aren't we talking about Apis mellifera scutellata crossed with Apis > mellifera mellifera? Or Apis mellifera scutellata X Apis mellifera > carnica? My point. When we speak of AHB we are using shorthand to identify only one bad actor from Africa. It is just like saying EHB and say they are gentle, early flying, heavy propolis producers. Anyone saying that would be instantly corrected and told they are probably talking about Carniolians. We in the US, since there seems to be only one AHB here, have pinned AHB onto Apis mellifera scutellata. If you read Bob's posts, he does separate them since they do have very different characteristics. The problem with crosses is, like all crosses, you have no idea what you will get. Plus, in time, you can end up with something else. Buckfast were considered a gentle bee, but some had problems with them after time with increased aggression, or, if you prefer, more defensive behavior. As an aside, I do not think aggressive is a bad word to use, since there is a transition between purely defensive behavior and aggressive behavior. If I am stung, as I was, repeatedly when working my garden some 300 yards from the colony, I would say that is more aggressive than defensive. (The colony was Italian.) We in the North might look a little more toward the South and see the reality of working in a mixed environment. There is no need for panic, since I doubt if we in the North will ever have an unmanageable "AHB" problem. We will get aggressive colonies and re-queen, be they EHB or AHB. We can take what happens in the Southern US and learn from that. My main concern is overreaction,as what happened with Tracheal and Varroa. There was a lot of the same "close the borders" talk then, and in the places it was done, it did not work. With AHB, I think it would be worse, since with the first two, the problem was strictly within the beekeeping community, while with AHB, the public will be very involve. As the Chairman of the Bath Zoning Board, I know I would not want that. It is easy to zone out anything the public sets its mind to prohibit. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 15:54:57 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: successful invader In-Reply-To: <9D95C2906FCCE04F836ECA17C4CE092103311F35@UAEXCH.univ.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aaron Morris wrote: > How does one make responsible beekeepers of those who aren't? Some State Associations do a fair job when they recognize the problem. I know of an incident in Massachusetts where that did happen. A beekeeper was forced to move his bees by the Association's pressure. What I have found is that those who are not do not last long as beekeepers. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 16:14:02 -0500 Reply-To: janet.katz@earthlink.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Janet A. Katz" Subject: Re: A Successful Invader In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Keith wrote: "../. think anyone selling Buckfast, Russians, NWC, SMR, Etc, or any number of queens with a name other than their Latin name is possibly patented."= I think these names are registered trademarks: the names simply identify a particular product. A patent gives the creator of an invention the sole right to that product for a set period of time. Janet A. Katz Chester, NJ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 13:24:31 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: successful invader In-Reply-To: <9D95C2906FCCE04F836ECA17C4CE092103311F35@UAEXCH.univ.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Aaron Morris wrote: Lloyd wrote, "Stop arguing about definations, and do the job of a responsible beekeeper." How does one make responsible beekeepers of those who aren't? Won't they be self erradicating? If they don't manage properly, they'll either get stung out of business, sued out of business, or some other method that AHBs have of getting people to leave 'em alone. I don't see the casual beekeeper continuing with the operation if they get the sam-hill stung out of 'em every time they do something around the hives, or their neighbors do. Mike Wondering when they'll get here. --------------------------------- Yahoo! Photos – Showcase holiday pictures in hardcover Photo Books. You design it and we’ll bind it! -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 17:03:55 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Eric Brown Subject: Re: Nucs For what it's worth, a "5 frame nuc" means something different to me and would to a lot of other beekeepers around here (North Carolina). When I talk about a "5 frame nuc," I'm talking about five frames, normally to be transferred to a 10-frame box. I would ask to make sure, but if I was paying for a "5 frame nuc," I would expect five frames all mostly full of mostly capped brood, and I would expect them to be transferred into whatever I wanted to put them in. In the springtime, especially, feed can be managed for; brood and bees are what I care about in the spring. Drawn comb is valuable, of course, but I'm not going to pay much for somebody else's (old) drawn comb. I count my nucs by the number of frames of brood: 3 frames of brood and however many frames of whatever else is a 3 frame nuc in my book. Eric -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 17:49:17 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: Nucs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/01/06 22:31:59 GMT Standard Time, abejero@JUNO.COM writes: <> Interesting. In the UK, a nuc is assumed to be a viable colony, and as such should have sufficient stores to keep it going. Regards, Robert Brenchley -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 20:16:11 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kent Stienburg Subject: Re: bees to Canada MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > could any one tell me the price of a queen arround your places? Here in Ontario Canada Prices range from $18 to $30 on average. Kent Stienburg -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 22:38:05 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jose Joaquin Rosas Subject: visit... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am traveling to the US on the 18th until the 28th. I will be in = Ellicott city Maryland and would like to visit some apiaries appreciate any information on where to go and how to contact them. =20 Regards, =20 Jos=E9 Rosas Bogota, Colombia S.A. =20 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 09:57:06 +0000 Reply-To: honeymountain@kilty.demon.co.uk Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: james kilty Organization: honey mountain Subject: Re: Why wouldn't results change? In-Reply-To: <013501c61642$d3fd18f0$0d319440@drivec> Content-Type: text/plain Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I swear they communicated by sound as well. Tiny klaxons I'll bet. They do seem to have an amazing range of in-hive sounds. almost as if they do talk. Any papers on this? -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 06:46:42 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: Antibacterial Activity in Selected Honeys MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII By Randy W. Worobo, Ph.D., The Nucleus, National Honey Board (USA) http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 09:13:28 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Bee Patents Comments: To: "Janet A. Katz" > I think anyone selling Buckfast, Russians, NWC, SMR, Etc, or any number of queens with a name other than their Latin name is possibly patented > > I think these names are registered trademarks: the names simply identify a particular product. * Animal Husbandry, appropriate subclasses for methods and structures for propagating, raising, and caring for animals, or other living, mobile creatures, generally. Also, see the search notes therein for reference to ancillary methods and structure. * http://www.uspto.gov/go/classification/uspc449/defs449.htm You can search at: Trademark Electronic Search System(Tess) http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/gate.exe?f=tess&state=lfpjhl.28.1 You will find trademarks for "New World Carniolans", "Buckfast", etc. and also stuff like this one: MITEY-VICTOR Goods and Services (ABANDONED) agricultural machines for use by beekeepers comprised of metal fabricated compartments and components for the purpose of physically removing varroa mites from honeybees, resulting in healthy bees and reduced honeybee colony mortality Serial Number 78183405 Filing Date November 8, 2002 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 09:23:21 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Bogansky,Ronald J." Subject: Responsible Beekeeper MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Greetings, Aaron wrote: "How does one make responsible beekeepers of those who aren't?" Bill replied in part: "What I have found is that those who are not do not last long as beekeepers."=20 IMHO the big question is: How much damage will they cause in the meantime? Along the lines of FDR: The only thing we have to fear is the FEAR of Africanized Bees (and irresponsible beekeepers handling them). Ron Ron Bogansky Kutztown, PA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 23:20:21 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Eric Brown Subject: Re: A Successful Invader MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bob, Ron, and Dennis all suggested an idea regarding africanized bees that just doesn’t make sense to me. The fact that I’m about to take issue with all three of them/you, makes me wonder if I’m not about to display my grand stupidity, but here goes. Bob talked about warnings (Jan 3, AHB takeovers & beekeeping pest history) and then asked, “Why the panic now?” Ron said, “we must do everything in our power to limit or prevent the spread of these bees.” Dennis said, “Beekeepers who understand the problem, can be the first line of defense for the general public. These beekeepers could be seen as protecting public safety.” What doesn’t make sense to me in all these comments is the idea that some of us beekeepers can really do anything about the threat that “killer bees” (whether they’re real or partly real or not) pose to beekeeping. I agree with what Ron went on to say, that “everyone has to take some responsibility for this and change the way we keep bees.” But that’s exactly the catch: EVERYONE isn’t going to take responsibility. So, assuming the threat is real, what do we do? Recognize that irresponsible beekeeping is going to lead to horrible scenarios X, Y, and Z? Or get rid of bees and beekeeping in one way or another? Obviously, as a beekeeper, I don’t want to get rid of beekeeping, but what does everyone else care? Why wouldn’t a state like North Carolina eliminate beekeeping? Arguments purportedly based on “public health” have already eliminated all the thousands of small dairies from NC. Why not beekeeping? Isn’t corn syrup safer for public health than bee attacks? And if for some strange reason we want to have honey as part of the modern American diet, we can import it. It certainly seems conceivable that the spread of africanized bees could have been slowed, but if their presence has already been confirmed in instances as far as New England, and if another year of spreading has already begun, then it seems to me we’re too late to stop the spread. At this point, it seems it’s just a matter of AHBs settling in wherever they have the ability to settle in. And it doesn’t seem like it would take much critical mass to take down the whole system. A strongly perceived threat is all it takes, right? What would happen if the media really got a hold of a single deadly stinging incident in New York, for instance? Would that not be the end of all or most beekeeping in North Carolina? I’ve avoided talking about pollination so far. Similar to Ron, I’m not sure North Carolinians care enough about almonds. And even if they did, by the time we paid for all the extra precautions that would be demanded, wouldn’t that high price make some kind of alternative possible? Like Australian packages? Or some otherwise less efficient species of bee? Raise the price of pollination high enough, and starving artists will offer to pollinate your almond trees with their paint brushes. In any case, beekeepers like me (in a rural county with houses every quarter to half mile on average) can be regulated away without seriously jeopardizing the pollination business, right? (Not to mention suburban beekeepers, etc.) So, to get back to where I started, aren’t beekeepers more of a threat than a potential first line of defense? (Are my bees going to attract africanized usurpations?) If my area is subject to permanent africanization, is there anything about the problem that I can do if my neighbors are simultaneously importing africanized bees? It just seems too easy for the few to spoil the whole lot for the many, and that’s assuming that the bee-havers aren’t themselves “the many.” Eric -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 21:38:22 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: successful invader In-Reply-To: <9D95C2906FCCE04F836ECA17C4CE092103311F35@UAEXCH.univ.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Aaron writes: How does one make responsible beekeepers of those who aren't? Reply: Maybe training classes or workshops they can attend to learn proper how-to's Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 21:45:57 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: More Thoughts on Africanized In-Reply-To: <20060111195833.59797.qmail@web53415.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Mike writes: There is documented proof that "some" of these bees can kill. Prudence would dictate that all beekeepers operate on the side of caution rather than a wait-and-see basis. Reply: Okay, Mike, now let's throw another thing to think about into the puzzle that you may/might have to deal with.....and all should consider also.........once so-called AHBs confirmed in your areas. Over the counter medications, that make people suceptible to bee stings and over reactions at that....not that this hasn't been documented with various painkillers and being stung within hours of taking same........so that even one sting or two can be then serious........ So killer bees due to Advil? or tylenol? other?? Something to consider....... Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 21:48:26 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Combating a Successful Invader In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Eric Brown wrote:to the effect that bee-havers would negate efforts to control the influx of AHBs. IMHO getting rid of all beekeepers, apiaries, bee hives, etc. in a geographical area will do nothing to negate the influx of AHBs. They will go the feral route, occupying voids anywhere they can be found, including old tires thrown away into a dump in the back woods. The AHBs are going to be here whether there are any beekeepers around or not. As responsible beekeepers it will become our lot to be the people who will be asked to eradicate AHB sites as they appear to public scrutiny. If, in the public eye, we beekeepers can be seen as the keepers of the light (i.e. control/irradication of AHB populations) then we might be allowed to keep our "civilized" bees. Mike Mike Located in southern Alabama --------------------------------- Yahoo! Photos Got holiday prints? See all the ways to get quality prints in your hands ASAP. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 22:04:13 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Can Mite Counts be Counted on? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Alden writes: If the bees are expending much of their energy and resources in raising brood and throwing it out because of mite contamination they don't have as much time to be doing other chores. Reply: Actually, chewing out and taking care of varroa is a timed thing according to the active season with honeybees, with broodnest turnover time being the actual time, of the active beekeeping year, when this is done by our honeybees. So you want to see a large mite drop at broodnest turnover times as well as mite chewing out scenarios for the first 1-3 brood turn overs with each turnover less and less varroa seen for either going into fall, and/or coming out of winter and firing up for spring. Best time is going into winter though for cleansing, for the phoretic state during winter gives the worker bees also time for cleansing by biting the mites thru personal grooming also. Other times of the year, the drones, especially with SC field management take care of the problem, so the workers can raise brood and get stores of honey and pollen in for maintenance of the hive, and production for beekeepers. Then like a living liver, at broodnest turnover time, the drones are cleansed, then the broodnest is turned over and cleansed by chewing out of worker/drone cells, to start the cycle over with less mites to contend with, until non-detectable levels are reached and/or you don't care enough to want to sample anymore. Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 05:56:00 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: More Thoughts on Africanized In-Reply-To: <20060113054557.99874.qmail@web51608.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dee Lusby wrote:Over the counter medications, that make people suceptible to bee stings and over reactions at that So killer bees due to Advil? or tylenol? other?? Won't deny additional effects of meds. But, don't deny cases where victim has recieved multiple hundreds of stings; not one, two, or three. Mike --------------------------------- Yahoo! Photos Got holiday prints? See all the ways to get quality prints in your hands ASAP. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 09:12:12 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Responsible Beekeeper In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There are a lot of strawmen being erected in this discussion. I have seen very few "irresponsible" beekeepers in my time as a beekeeper. I have met some who were well meaning but ignorant. I met them because they asked for help. I enjoy educating those who need help, or I have them call Tony Jadczak, our State Inspector, for the best advice. For a long time I was the State point of contact for beekeeping. What I encountered was a thirst for information and a desire on the part of those who called to become educated in proper beekeeping. I repeat, this whole discussion about AHB is what we went through with both Tracheal Mites and Varroa when they first appeared. AHB is a problem, but one we in the North will only be marginally involved, compared to the mites. We have two Continents and most of our Southern States where AHB is found. They seem to be surviving without the panic I read here. Let us learn from them and not just accommodate, but see if we can do it better. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 09:16:27 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Bee Patents Greetings! I don't know if anyone tried to follow that link, but this is a better one: http://www.uspto.gov/main/trademarks.htm It's a pretty fun site to check out. Lots of comical trade names and funny logos! examples QUEEN BEE BRAND RECORDS pre-recorded compact discs featuring music http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=doc&state=oagdji.2.26 SHEBA THE QUEEN BEE Retail Television, Stereos and Home Appliances http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=doc&state=oagdji.2.36 QUEEN BEE SUPER QUALITY TOILET BOWL CLEANSER. FIRST USE: 1961 http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=doc&state=oagdji.2.43 ETC. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 11:37:14 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Bee Patents Greetings! I apologize for the bum links in my message. Evidently, you cannot bookmark pages at that particular site; you must re-do the original search. There are some very funny pictures of "queen bees" there and I had wanted to share them with the group. If you are still interested (if you ever were!) you should try searching with the terms "queen AND bee". pb -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 11:41:11 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Eric Brown Subject: Re: Responsible Beekeeper On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 09:12:12 -0500, Bill Truesdell wrote: >There are a lot of strawmen being erected in this discussion. I have >seen very few "irresponsible" beekeepers in my time as a beekeeper. I >have met some who were well meaning but ignorant. I guess this all depends on what we define as irresponsible. Where I'm at in North Carolina there's a bee supply place bringing in queens and packages from Florida this year. That will put hundreds of Florida bred queens in the county. I consider that irresponsible. One of the more informed beekeepers in our county club swears by the Texas queens he's been purchasing. He says they're a little hot, but manageable, and he thinks they're vigorous. He plans to buy more this year. I consider that irresponsible. We have beekeepers nearby taking hives out to almonds (and back). I find that borderline irresponsible. I bet there are close to a hundred beekeepers in the county that have never caught on to the concept that frames of brood are removeable, which means they've never inspected for foulbrood, for instance. I'm inclined to say that's irresponsible. I know of a few beekeepers that feed out in the open when other nearby beekeepers still have honey supers on their hives. I consider that very irresponsible. I haven't even touched on the huge subject illegal chemicals and legal chemical misuse. I think it's anything but a strawman to suggest that there are enough irresponsible beekeepers out there to "leaven the whole lump." I can imagine that things might be somewhat better in Maine, but can you really talk of a strawman? Eric -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 10:09:27 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Responsible Beekeeper In-Reply-To: <43C7B53C.1060302@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bill Truesdell wrote: I have seen very few "irresponsible" beekeepers in my time as a beekeeper. I have met some who were well meaning but ignorant. I know beekeepers here in my area who refuse to register their bees or allow the bee inspector in to look at their hives. Why? They don't want the government intrusion, or the government telling them how to run their hives. They don't want the inspectors in looking through their hives without them being present. They don't want the inspectors in looking at their hives, completing their reports, then leaving without helping the beekeeper in any way. There are numerous reasons why they don't ...... But, it remains that there are numerous hives in southern Alabama that aren't registered, recieve inadequate management in some cases, and are possible points of easy infiltration/usurptation by AHBs. Down here very few irresponsible is not as infrequent. I try to help as best I can without trying to seem pushy but contact with some of these beekee! pers is limited or nonexistant. Mike in lower Alabama Home of some true red necks. I become that way sometimes if I don't wear my western style hat to protect my neck. :) --------------------------------- Yahoo! Photos Ring in the New Year with Photo Calendars. Add photos, events, holidays, whatever. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 14:12:07 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Responsible Beekeeper MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline I am with Bill on this one. *Most* beekeepers are responsible. Many who d= o not practice responsible beekeeping, would do so if they knew that some portion of what they are doing was irresponsible. One of the matters on top of my list of irresponsible behavior is prophylactic treatment for AFB. Another is leaving mite strips in all winter. Yet, NYS Apiary Inspectors tell beekeepers that they should do both! Probably inspectors in some other states do that as well. IMHO, we should be spending far more money than we are on education of beekeepers, and far less on 'inspection'. Lloyd -- Lloyd Spearle Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 16:24:05 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Responsible Beekeeper In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lloyd Spear wrote: > IMHO, we should be spending far more money than we are on education of > beekeepers, and far less on 'inspection'. In Maine we are blessed to have both, since a call to Tony will bring both an inspection and education. We also have Chapters of the Maine State Beekeepers which hold schools (I have spoken at three) as well as the Extension Service which works with the MSBA. In essence, we have a statewide program that is geared toward education. I see the same sort of effort in Massachusetts, so maybe I am extrapolating too much. However, I stand by my statement that irresponsible beekeepers do not last long. So it is self correcting. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 20:22:56 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Two queens I just finished requeening 52 hives today, and I noticed quite a few cases of two queens per hive, even though the average hive is just 4 frames of brood or so. I've seen it on occasion like many of the rest of you have, but not like this year. The first time was last Fall when a hive in some Raspberries I was pollinating savagely attacked me, stinging me through the suit and following my car to the gate which I estimate a quarter mile away. It reminded me of the worst of the feral, never medicated or domesticated Scuts I had in Africa. I took some in later to the ag commissioner, and they were confirmed AHB. I went back later and killed the queen and reduced the amount of brood. A week and a half later I went back to requeen it, but there was a big, mature queen there and the hive was full of eggs and larva. This last operation where I requeened there were about ten percent double queens, but I saw no link to aggressive behavior. Just more that usual. I wonder if that particular characteristic isn't necessarily linked to aggression. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 20:29:17 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "D. Murrell" Subject: Re: A Successful Invader Hi Erik and Everyone, Somehow my bees just never learned to read :>) If a situation develops where a beekeepers bees become a public nuisance, then appropriate action for the public good must be taken against that beekeeper. And if a beekeeper is keeping bees without regard for public safety, then other beekeepers ought to be the first to privately inform that beekeeper and then, the public if necessary. I hope that such occasions are few, so that a beekeeper and his bees will be a non-issue for the general public. I think what the general public might be confronted with are aggressive bees in their home/business environment. And that's where beekeepers can publically come to the rescue. In a sense, that's where the problem of AHB's are significantly different than other bee problems. AHB's are a problem because they increase the chance of interaction with the generally beephobic public. Whereas, those other problems actually decrease that kind of interaction. An important part of educating the public, in an AHB area, is how to behave around and be aware of the bees in their environment. Maybe an equally important part of that message should concern the value of the beekeeper to public safety. And who would be better to educate the public that the beekeepers themselves. Regards Dennis Thinking that hiding this issue under a basket is only going to get a lot of beekeepers stung. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 19:46:42 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: mark berninghausen Subject: Re: Responsible Beekeeper In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit How would that program be put into practice? Who would do the educating? Who would be educated and how? Certainly beekeepers wouldn't have to pass a course to gain a license to own a beehive, would they? Has anyone tryed to get the Legislators to fund this kind of project? What is meant by "education of beekeepers"? Aren't beekeepers supposed to educate themselves? Mark Berninghausen Lloyd Spear wrote: IMHO, we should be spending far more money than we are on education of beekeepers, and far less on 'inspection'. Lloyd --------------------------------- Yahoo! Photos Got holiday prints? See all the ways to get quality prints in your hands ASAP. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 20:30:17 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: mark berninghausen Subject: Responsible Beekeeper/Responsible Citizen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit To me, a responsible beekeeper should be a responsible citizen. To me, a responsible citizen does what she can to improve the conditions under which we all live. One works within the system, to insure a level of quality workmanship. One works outside of the system to influence the focus of the system. One does this by banding together a group of likeminded people who are willing to advise those with the power to move the focus. If their advice is not taken then they need to gather more support from those folks who can change the focus. If they are strong enough in numbers, influence and or money, they will get the attention of those who will get things changed. But you must be organized, united, have a plan, a workable, logical, reasonable and affordable plan. Unless you are willing to fund at least part of that plan through a fee, license or permit. You also must stand firm. You must stand firmly in place. Don't give up the struggle. Don't go home when things don't go your way. No one gets everything that they want. But in order for the majority to get what it needs, someone is going to be disappointed. You may think that you are beekeepers. But, are you beekeepers first and citizens of New York second? Or the other way around. Get with the program. The program is to improve what we have. It's easy to tear something down. We did that ten years ago. What we have now has taken more work than you might think. It is easy to tear something down. What are you and I going to build in it's place? And what makes anyone believe that what will be built in place of what we have now, will be any better? Mark Berninghausen, citizen --------------------------------- Yahoo! Photos Got holiday prints? See all the ways to get quality prints in your hands ASAP. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 18:07:08 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Rossy Castillo Orozco Subject: Looking for information MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi I need to contact somebody from Africa who can give me beekeeping = information about races of bees do they work with, how much do they = harvest , etc.=20 Thanks beforehand Rossy Castillo =20 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 21:35:11 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: More Thoughts on Africanized In-Reply-To: <20060113135600.17231.qmail@web53407.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Mike writes: Won't deny additional effects of meds. But, don't deny cases where victim has recieved multiple hundreds of stings; not one, two, or three. Reply: True, but then also correctly state why such incidents happened most times: 1. bulldozer going over the area within xx feet of colony. 2. water pressure spraying of bees to knock down and try to kill. 3. pesticide pump spraying of bees to try to kill. Usually someone trying to kill the poor bees, because they could not afford to pay the local exterminators to remove them from premises. and few beekeepers left due to politics within city,town, municipality areas for being allowed to keep bees anyways, be it formal zoning, or just neighbors making life unbearable (this is the hard part). Life can be hard when perception is hard. Made our area go from 125 local beekeepers in S. Arizona to about 9 today.....so can you expect same in same span of years? Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 01:42:31 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: mark berninghausen Subject: Lets Renovate an Apiary Inspection Program into a SERVICE MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Let's renovate our NYS Apiary Inspection Program into an Apiary Inspection SERVICE. Any and all suggestions are valid. Contribute yours, today. This is our chance to start to build a better tomorrow for us all. Let's, at least, try to improve our mutually chosen lot in life as citizen and beekeepers of this state. Suggestions from folks from outside the state of New York would be greatly accepted. Many of you have had experiences that we haven't yet had here. Please help. Thank you, Mark Berninghausen, citizen/beekeeper --------------------------------- Yahoo! Photos Got holiday prints? See all the ways to get quality prints in your hands ASAP. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 09:52:13 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Two queens In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Tim > there were about ten percent double > queens, but I saw no link to aggressive behaviour. Is there a linkage between two queens and aggression in Scuts ? I have experience of two queens (and occasionally 3), but in AMM this seems to be way that the colony uses two queens that each lay at a slower rate (sometimes one will take a rest for a few days) this behaviour wears out the queens at a slower rate and allows for a longer time to elapse between the need for out crossed matings (which may only occur infrequently, due to localised weather). Certainly there is no aggression in workers due to two AMM queens, if anything the reverse is true, but I do not think that the docility is related to two queens either (unless it is a manifestion of higher levels of queen pheromone). Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 04:41:32 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: Contaminants of Bee Products MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Contaminants of Bee Products By Stefan Bogdanov, Apidologie, Vol. 37, January-February 2006 Agroscope Liebefeld Posieux, Swiss Bee Research Centre, Liebefeld, 3003 Bern, Switzerland http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 16:38:57 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: successful invader MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Aaron, > How does one make responsible beekeepers of those who aren't? > Good question, I have been attempting that for a few years now up here with very little luck. I find that it may just be better to work exclusively with those that are responsible and like minded to grow in those numbers to someday out number the irresponsible. It is, in my opinion, impossible to change individual mind sets, we can probably only show the way in hopes that those irresponsible will someday change their ways for whatever reason suits them, even if it might be to follow the crowd. We need good leaders, especially up here in Alaska, who will teach and lead responsibility. . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska USA, http://www.cer.org/, c(((([ , Apiarian, http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney/, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/akbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 21:23:53 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: more on morphometrics In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Peter writes: Their aim was to make wing vein identification easier and quicker. Of course, there may be hybrids that are not clearly one or another. Reply: Would these hybrids that are not clear have distinctly different wing veins as you mention then not found in the other AHB, Amm, Italian, and carnolian, etc? Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 13:32:50 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: A Successful Invader MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Eric, I found your last post some what humorous. > So, to get back to where I started, aren't beekeepers more of a threat than > a potential first line of defense? Maybe, but where would the poor public be, in a land of KILLER BEES, without a beekeeper or at least an exterminator to handle the wild colonies and swarms of aggressive bees? . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska USA, -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 14:02:15 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: successful invader MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Dee, > Maybe training classes or workshops they can attend to > learn proper how-to's > Good idea in theory, but the irresponsible beekeeper will not have the responsibility to attend or learn if they did attend. Not only that, there probably are more than one definition of "responsible beekeeper", it certainly means something different to me up here than what it does to this thread on AHB threat and successful invader. I certainly do agree that training is the key to responsible beekeeping. . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska USA, -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 07:15:00 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Two queens In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-66884146 > cases of two queens per hive...I wonder if that particular > characteristic isn't necessarily linked to >aggression. I had a wickedly mean hive two summers ago. I usually leave them alone, when they are in an isolated outyard, but this one was in my cell building yard. Not many colonies can make me put on gloves, but this one sure did. So, I killed the queen...ouch!...and planned on giving a ripe cell the following day. Stupid me. Always trying to do too much in one day. I forgot to give the cell. Five days later, I remembered. OK, no big deal. I'll just kill the emergency cells, and give a laying, caged queen. There weren't any cells started?? They had a second queen. I killed her...ouch ouch!!...and successfully requeened the colony. I wonder how often this happens, too. When trying to requeen a really mean colony, the process often fails. How many times is it because there are two queens present. I seem to have more colonies with multiple queens in recent years. Two years ago, I requeened 50 colonies, and found 17 with multiple queens. None of them were particularly defensive. Maybe the increase in multiple queened colonies has to do with my allowing colonies to supercede. If a colony successfully supercedes, and the queen is good, I accept that queen. I don't requeen annually, or by the calendar. I am not trying to maintain any specific breed or coloration in my bees. Perhaps by doing so, I am selecting for colonies that supercede, and so am getting more multiple queened colonies? Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.17/229 - Release Date: 1/13/2006 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 04:34:29 -0800 Reply-To: Tim Vaughan Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: Looking for information MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "I need to contact somebody from Africa who can give me beekeeping information about races of bees do they work with, how much do they harvest , etc." What part? Africa isn't one small country! -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 08:29:45 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: A Successful Invader MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 20:29:17 -0500, D. Murrell wrote: >If a situation develops where a beekeepers bees become a public nuisance, >then appropriate action for the public good must be taken against that >beekeeper. This just in: > Near LaBelle in Hendry County, Imogene Risner said her niece was washing a horse near their home last year when a cloud of bees attacked, besieging the animal's head and face. The horse died that night after suffering about 2,000 stings, she said. Hayes' department then performed DNA tests on hives that Risner's husband, an amateur beekeeper, was tending nearby. She said the state workers killed all 40 hives with soapy water after several of those tests came back positive for Africanized genes — a result she disputes. See: Killer bees set up shop in Florida By Robert P. King Palm Beach Post Staff Writer Saturday, January 14, 2006 http://tinyurl.com/9v2kl * I posted excerpts from "A Successful Invader" on January first, 2006. My hope was not to alarm people, but to get a good discussion going. The facts need to be made available. Not as many southern beekeepers have chimed in as I would have liked, but the discussion has been lively. We need to keep it going so that we are all informed and that misconceptions do not get perpetuated. Peter Borst Danby NY -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 09:59:09 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: AHB takeovers & beekeeping pest history Comments: To: Bob Harrison On Tue, 3 Jan 2006 15:16:50 -0500, Bob Harrison wrote: >We have been told since 1957 about AHB and the only method to control ( or >at least until as Aaron says until all the bees are AHB). Why the panic >now? > I'm curious what advice has the bee labs given for control of AHB? Brian Fredericksen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 07:11:36 -0800 Reply-To: Tim Vaughan Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: Two queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "> I have experience of two queens (and occasionally 3), but in AMM this > seems to be way that the colony uses two queens that each lay at a > slower rate (sometimes one will take a rest for a few days) this > behaviour wears out the queens at a slower rate and allows for a longer > time to elapse between the need for out crossed matings (which may only > occur infrequently, due to localised weather)." Thanks, Dave, that's interesting. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 10:18:49 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Eric Brown Subject: Re: A Successful Invader On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 13:32:50 -0900, Keith Malone wrote: >where would the poor public be, in a land of KILLER BEES, without >a beekeeper or at least an exterminator to handle the wild colonies and >swarms of aggressive bees? I was just at a meeting of pest control operators in Florida in December. Half the program was on "killer bees." (The other very interesting half was on bed bugs. Fortunately for me, they seem to prefer blue-blood kind of establishments to Bob's Motor Lodge. But be careful where you sleep!) As far as the general public goes, I think an exterminator is exactly what they want. Does the general public really want understanding? Or someone who can work with bees? I think, they just want them eliminated. And I have a hard time seeing that the general public will trouble itself to differentiate between "good bees" and "bad bees." On a tangential note, from the geographic origins of recent posts, it seems like we Southerners might hold more firmly to the doctrine of total depravity. Is that what this discussion boils down to? Eric -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 10:35:24 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Rob Green Subject: Responsible Beekeeper In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 12:00 AM 1/14/2006, you wrote: >One of the matters on top of my list of irresponsible behavior is >prophylactic treatment for AFB. Another is leaving mite strips in all >winter. Yet, NYS Apiary Inspectors tell beekeepers that they should do >both! Probably inspectors in some other states do that as well. Prophylactic treatment for AFB, although probably the cause of much more problems than it solves, is consistent with its labeling. However leaving mite strips on all year is a violation of the labeling, the epa, and, at least in our state, can get you slapped with a fine from the State Chemists Office. For inspectors to cousel beekeepers to violate the law should be a firing offense, should it not? -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 15:42:08 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Two queens In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20060114065649.03995d30@pop.together.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Mike > Perhaps by doing so, I am selecting for colonies that supercede, > and so am getting more multiple queened colonies? Queens laying in tandem is a characteristic that shows more strongly with selection... and it can be that mother and daughter (most common) actually lay side by side for a couple of years. Each queen often sticks to their own 'patch', but this is often on the same frame and the patches are often only a few millimetres apart. An absolutely classic example of this could be seen in one of the observation hives on the FIBKA stand at the recent Apimondia in Dublin. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 12:06:47 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: AHB takeovers & beekeeping pest history > Why the panic now? I don't think this discussion has showed any signs of panic, certainly not on the part of northern beekeepers. Simply talking about this stuff is not a sign of panic. It should be discussed fully. There are a lot people out there keeping mum. I don't know why. > I'm curious what advice has the bee labs given for control of AHB? Requeen, kill aggressive hives, kill ferals. * to which I would add: mark your queens! If there is a large AHB presence, you can no longer let them supersede pb -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 09:18:18 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: responsible beekeeper definition In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Been thinking about all the comments on what constitutes a responsible beekeeper. All the states have statutes/regulations pertaining to beekeeping. Some are the same, some are similar, and some pertain to that particular state. There are general procedures that are promoted by all good beekeeping advocates. As knowledge progresses new techniques are introduced and incorporated into "good" beekeeping practices. To me, a responsible beekeeper is one who endeavors to keep current with the latest beekeeping knowledge, is aware of and follows the regulations pertaining to his/her area, practices "good" beekeeping procedures, endeavors to promote the hobby, and produces quality products in appealing packaging. I'm sure there are some points I have left out and will appreciate any additions and/or modifications submitted by other members on this list. I endeavor to maintain the standards of a good beekeeper although I know at times I fall short of my ideals. I promote beekeeping at any time I deam to be opportunistic. Along with selling my products, I try to encourage my customers to take up the hobby of beekeeping at the time and point of sale. As in any group, my state organization has factions. I try to act as mediator when points of procedure, organizational planks, etc. are in contention. I try to look at the point(s) of contention from both sides and see if there is some middle point that can be reached which would be acceptable to both sides of the point in question. I love my avocation. I don't want it to become something only a few people do as a vocation. That is especially possible down here where we will be adversly affected by the influx of the Africanized honey bee. Education, support, and good maintenance practices are things that can mitigate the effects of the influx and the creation and maintena! nce of "the responsible beekeeper". I now yield my soapbox to others of you here on the list for response. Mike Located 1/2 way between Mobile and Montgomery, Alabama Where the state is having a workshop at Auburn University on the 4th of February. Cost for the day is $15.00 and includes a lunch sponsered by the state beekeeping organization --------------------------------- Yahoo! Photos – Showcase holiday pictures in hardcover Photo Books. You design it and we’ll bind it! -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 09:25:43 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: More Thoughts on Africanized In-Reply-To: <20060114053511.59682.qmail@web51614.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dee Lusby wrote:Reply: True, but then also correctly state why such incidents happened most times: 1. bulldozer going over the area within xx feet of colony. 2. water pressure spraying of bees to knock down and try to kill. 3. pesticide pump spraying of bees to try to kill. How about an incident where a field across the fence from the beeyard was being mowed and only one hive of the eight or ten located there attacked in mass? Why only one hive, and not all of them? If the cab of the tractor had not been enclosed the operator would have been severly stung. Don't close your eyes to situations other than those where you feel the hive has been compromised by irresponsible/ignorate operations. By the way, that hive has been requeened. The original queen originated from a supplier out in TEXAS. For those of you who don't know, the name of the state of TEXAS is always capitalized. :) Mike --------------------------------- Yahoo! Photos Got holiday prints? See all the ways to get quality prints in your hands ASAP. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 09:35:25 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Lets Renovate an Apiary Inspection Program into a SERVICE In-Reply-To: <20060114094231.74728.qmail@web32105.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit mark berninghausen wrote:Any and all suggestions are valid. Contribute yours, today. One complaint that some of our beekeepers have is that the inspectors come when the owners can't be there to accompany them on the inspections. Hard to do for the inspectors, I know. But.... Call and set up a mutually acceptable time for inspection. Mike --------------------------------- Yahoo! Photos Got holiday prints? See all the ways to get quality prints in your hands ASAP. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 17:07:53 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: FW: [BEE-L] Looking for information MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The following post was edited to remove quotes of previously posted = material. ________________________________ From: Rossy Castillo Orozco [mailto:rossybee@terra.cl] Sent: Sat 2006.01.14 14:00 To: Tim Vaughan; Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee = Biology Subject: Re: [BEE-L] Looking for information I know Africa is a big continent but I also know that there are a = lot of races there.Anyway I believe that Bekeeping is more practiced in South Africa, I also know that there beekeepers have some problems with the capensis race , I just would like to know how do they work , I'm = beekeeping teacher and when I talk of beekeeping in the world I would like to give = my students more and good information .That is why I'm asking somebody of Africa, a beekeper to tell me about it. Thanks a lot for answering,and please excuse my english because is not = my native language. Rossy ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Vaughan" tvaughan@charter.net asked, > > What part? Africa isn't one small country! -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 18:19:59 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: "killer bee" facts some really ridiculous pieces of supposed information on AHB found on the web. I had a good laugh. http://www.insecta-inspecta.com/bees/killer/ here's a sampling of some of the mis-information being passed around on this website. "Africanized bees are slow fliers and most healthy people can out run them" "European honey bee sperm is inserted into a Africanized bee queen. The queen is then released into the wild. Scientists are hoping the injected Killer Bee queen will produce less aggressive bees and pass the gene to the offspring" "If you are in the path of a swarm of Africanized Bees, you have a seventy-five percent chance of a deadly attack." Yep its not the AHB's we need to fear............... -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 18:32:27 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John Miles Subject: Instrumental Insemination Equipment Im asking for help to locate dealers in AI equipment.Im really interested in the Compact Schley III Model. Prices and recomendations on other equipment would be of great help. Thanks John Miles -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 09:42:44 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: queenbee Subject: Re: Two queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > there were about ten percent double > queens, but I saw no link to aggressive behaviour. In my operation, I requeen in autumn, usually March in the southern hemisphere, as it is about the only time I have any queens left for myself. Also, it is said that having new queens in the hive for spring, September onwards, is good and reduces swarming, not that I have any problems with swarming. When requeening, I often find two queens in the one hive. It is a result of supercedure where mother is being replaced. The usual clue is that you see a recently hatched or torn down queen cell on the edge of the brood nest. There is no sign of aggressive behaviour in these hives and they act normally. Often you can tell that the old queen is being replaced when you see the wheelchair tyre marks down the comb . At some stage, the daughter must take over laying in the hive and the mother, although still there, has stopped laying but is still tolerated in the hive. I found this out on several occasions with old breeder queens when I took the daughter out and the mother did not lay again. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA Coming to Apimondia in Australia in 2007 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 19:36:56 -0500 Reply-To: rek2w@alumni.virginia.edu Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Kieffer Subject: Mystery where wife is killed by honeybees? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Does anybody recall the name of the mystery where a man who kept bees kille= d his wife by mixing some alarm pheremones into her perfume, so that the bees attacked en masse. I seem to recall having seen mention of this mystery in an older book on beekeeping that I checked out of the library one time, but now have no clue what book it was. I'm inclined to think that the mystery was published maybe in the 20's-40's sometime. So, has anybody heard of what I'm talking about, or seen mention of it in a beekeeping book? I appreciate any help that you can give me, Robert the Bearded. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 02:01:35 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Curtis Crowell Subject: Mystery where wife is killed by honeybees? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit A Taste for Honey", H.F. Heard, 1941: A 'murder by bees' mystery featuring Mr. Mycroft as the detective -- meant to be Sherlock Holmes in his Sussex retirment. I have to ask - did your wife catch you extracting in the kitchen again? I wouldn't want to become an accessory after the fact because I provided this information! C.Crowell Hightstown, NJ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 18:44:16 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: Mystery where wife is killed by honeybees? In-Reply-To: <5fe468930601141636y72c9f223u506b67f838e32251@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > Does anybody recall the name of the mystery where a > man who kept bees killed > his wife by mixing some alarm pheremones into her > perfume, so that the bees > attacked en masse. ...I appreciate any help that you can give me I don't know about the book, but Here's some alarm pheromone recipes you can try. Let us know how it goes. http://www.pherobase.com/database/species/species-Apis-mellifera.php Best Wishes, Joe __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 19:12:43 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: mark berninghausen Subject: Re: Lets Renovate an Apiary Inspection Program into a SERVICE In-Reply-To: <20060114173525.96457.qmail@web53405.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit What Mike says about inspections happening when the Beekeeper can't be there is correct. This should happen with the okay of the Beekeeper. In NY, Apiary Inspectors often work far away from home. They try to get as many yards done in a day as is possible. They try to accomidate the Beekeeper, when possible. If the Beekeeper can't be present at time of inspection, the Beekeeper can insist that they be present and put off the inspection until it is mutually convenient. This sometimes or maybe often means that an inspection doesn't get done in that yard that year. There is so much territory to cover. There are only so many Inspectors. In NY, the Apiary Inspectors are instructed to try to make phone contact with the Beekeeper, before going to do the inspection. This is done to notify the Beekeeper that an Inspector is working their area and wants to do an inspection. If phone contact doesn't occur, the Inspector may go by the location and attempt contact in person. If no contact is made then the Inspector should go on to the next apiary. And try the phone contact again, to schedule an inspection. Most importantly, the Beekeeper should insist on being present if that is what the Beekeeper wants. The Apiary Inspector will comply, in NYS. Mark Berninghausen Mike Stoops wrote: One complaint that some of our beekeepers have is that the inspectors come when the owners can't be there . But.... Call and set up a mutually acceptable time for inspection. Mike --------------------------------- Yahoo! Photos Got holiday prints? See all the ways to get quality prints in your hands ASAP. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 20:46:30 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Instrumental Insemination Equipment In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit II equipment web site: http://www.besamungsgeraet.de/katalog_e.php John Miles wrote: Im asking for help to locate dealers in AI equipment. --------------------------------- Yahoo! Photos Ring in the New Year with Photo Calendars. Add photos, events, holidays, whatever. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 11:30:06 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: A Successful Invader In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Borst wrote: >>Near LaBelle in Hendry County, Imogene Risner said her niece was washing a > > horse near their home last year when a cloud of bees attacked, besieging the > animal's head and face. The horse died that night after suffering about > 2,000 stings, she said. This is suspect since the niece was not attacked. It sounds more like a horse stinging incident than AHB. We had many posts on horses attacked for "no reason". I wonder what was used in the wash. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 12:18:51 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Looking for Information MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit need to contact somebody from Africa who can give me beekeeping = information about races of bees do they work with, how much do they = harvest , etc.=20 Contact Rebecca at Bees for Development on _info@beesfordevelopment.org_ (mailto:info@beesfordevelopment.org) . Ther website is _www.beesfordevelopment.org_ (http://www.beesfordevelopment.org) If she can't give you the answer directly she will know somebody who can. Africa is a vast and varied continent so you may find it useful to narrow down your search a little. Chris -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 12:25:20 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Two queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit there were about ten percent double > queens, but I saw no link to aggressive behaviour. Hi Tim, Ron Brown used to lecture on his 2 queen system. Copies of his pamphlet are still available although he doesn't lecture much nowadays as he is 95 now. One of the benefits he cites for the 2 queen system is improved temperament, which he puts down to the extra queen pheromone in the hive. Chris -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 20:49:08 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: Instrumental Insemination Equipment Comments: cc: johnmiles1394@ALLTEL.NET In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 06:32 PM 1/14/2006, you wrote: >Im asking for help to locate dealers in AI equipment.Im really interested >in the Compact Schley III Model. Sue Cobey carries this and other models: http://www.honeybee.breeding.com/ http://www174.pair.com/birdland/Breeding/II.html The compact model III with microscope use to run around $2000. The price may have changed because it is somewhat dependent on the exchange rate of the euro. It is basically a complete setup with CO2, syringe, etc. It uses the small co2 cartridges sold for use with air guns which are readily available in the us at least. It's not a bad setup, but doesn't have quite the adjustments as the model II. (The posts are fixed) and the microscope is a fixed 20x. I purchased the model II myself and purchased my own zoom microscope and co2 system. The model II has adjustable posts that lets you adjust it with a larger working area. The zoom microscope is a plus since you can adjust the magnification, though I would suggest getting the 0.5x objective/barlow lens because it increases the working distance. (the model II runs around $1500). I would recommend the harbo syringe (around $300). While the syringe that comes with either Schley model works, it's harder to use because it's all one piece and doesn't have a detachable storage tube. With two pieces you can move and eject/takup semen without bumping the tip. Plus it allows you to store and ship semen which can be useful even with a small operation. Due to my schedule I often collect semen one day and inseminate a day or even a week later. In addition you can remove the tip without loosing semen to clean it if it gets clogged or breaks. Of those who were using the normal syringe when I attended Sue's class last year all were purchasing the harbo by the end of class. Both Schley models come with a forceps style sting hook. Again it works, but is more difficult to use that the perforated sting hook. (I got to try one in class). The forceps style hook basically requires you use the valve probe to open the queen and manipulate the stinger because the forceps are so big they can't be used for the job. Unfortunately last year the perforated sting hook was no longer available as Schley stopped making them. Sue had a ruby tipped hook, but the jeweler that made them for her no longer had steady hands and couldn't make them. It was great because the ruby (a watch jewel), is harder than the metal and doesn't wear or corrode out from the venom. Plus also has a tapered hole that acts as a funnel making easier to thread the stinger. Fortunately a member of my class is not making them and Sue now has them for sale I will definitely be getting one this year. I do not know the price. Disclaimer: All prices were from about a year ago and are subject to change in part due to the fluctuations of the dollars value against the euro. Sue also offers a training video (Very good and give an overview of the various equipment available, but I must say she make the procedure look much to easy :) and she offers a 3 day training classes which is worth every penny. I can't say enough good things about her class. Plus it really is a bargain at $350 (and you get to take home your course work (queens) from the last day. -Tim -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 18:45:01 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: What to expect due to AHBs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi All: Sadly, received my first phone call for the year from local beekeeper both mad and crying this afternoon. He had one hive left following burning of his bees, and didn't know whether to take everything he had to the dump or not. He wanted to know why no one could report such a happening, being in Tucson and all, and he had to find them this way. You know we have recently talked about a lot of stuff here, but here is one more thing to add to the pile of public perception of AHB........that is for real! The security of your hives in cities, towns and municipalities from vandelizism of all sorts and what to expect in your area from neighbors and others not wanting bees in populated areas, or even not so populated areas. Called the local Bee Supply House (SouthWestBee and talked to Jim the Owner) so they could put the word out to local beekeepers the season has started again, as in the past. What to watch out for you say? 1. Burning of hives 2. Shooting holes in hives. 3. Knocking over of hives. 4. Running vehicles thru hives and over them. 5. Fumigation bombs dropped into hives. These are the most common cases to contend with by neighbors not wanting bees perceived as dangerous in their areas, be it one hive or a handful, fenced in and hidden for the most part with adequate water, etc confirming to current zoning laws. The sad part was as he cried by the way was he was hoping he wouldn't have to sell his house and move......and yes, he still wanted to have his bees. Where could he go to still keep some for location? Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 20:57:03 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Almer's Apiary Subject: Re: Successful Invaders In-Reply-To: <20060110032725.26567.qmail@web53403.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Stops wrote: The closed borders didn't do a thing about stopping the parasites. Swarms of bees doen't go through state customs inspections, ya know. Not true. Alabama still has no known cases of any disease or parasite that are resistant to currently approved methods of treatment. The only pest that was able to penetrate our closed boarders was the SHB which came from truck stops inside the state. Swarms do indeed cross state lines but their progress is somewhat slower than trucks. Bob Fanning Huntsville, AL USA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 14:11:59 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Successful Invaders In-Reply-To: <200601160256.k0G2udCH004661@smtp.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Almer's Apiary wrote: > Not true. Alabama still has no known cases of any disease or parasite that > are resistant to currently approved methods of treatment. The only pest > that was able to penetrate our closed boarders was the SHB which came from > truck stops inside the state. There are no Varroa or Tracheal mites in Alabama? Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 18:23:23 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Russ Dean Subject: farm tax exmeption MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit WV legislature has Senate bill 113 this year. This would include bee hives. WV beekeepers pleases check it over. Click here: sb113 intr Russ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 17:14:49 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: The French to encourage beekeeping in urban areas. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4621184.stm -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 11:09:59 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Dry Ice CO2 sources Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed All Dry Ice placed above the colony will kill bees quickly. We've used dry ice for 30+ years for putting bees to sleep (they will wake up again, if the dose is small or of a short duration). We also use dry ice to preserve samples (in the field). In MT, you can buy it at any grocery store or even Walmart -- you may need it to get your ice cream home if you live in on a ranch in a rural area of MT. Also, the out-of-state hunters buy it to ship their game home. We've found it harder to find in more urban areas. However, there are two places to check -- 1) any gas supply firm that sells gases for welding, oxygen to hospitals, etc., and 2) most any LARGE shipping firm that moves household goods. They often have it since lots of people want to move their freezers full of food to their new house. Personally, I'd clear out the freezer, send it empty and dry -- but apparently lots of folks don't want to leave the contents behind. Jerry P.S. Remember to ALWAYS handle dry ice with gloves -- the ice can instantly freeze flesh. Also, it lasts better in a sealed container (keeps moist air out). Putting it in a fridge or freezer accelerates its sublimation due to the moist environment. A room or outside air temperature, sealed storage box (pack any excess space with something like crumpled newsprint, tape the seams) will hold dry ice days longer than a fridge (the cold difference is insignificant when you consider the temp of the dry ice itself). In a fiberglass reinforced, 3/4 inch plywood box with 2 inches of styrofoam insulation, I've bee able to keep a 50# block of dry ice for up to 2 weeks. (Needed when collecting samples in remote areas, don't leave the box open for any length of time, and if freezing samples, always place them UNDER the ice, cold moves downward). -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 19:38:20 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dan&jan Subject: Re: Can Mite Counts be Counted on? MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; reply-type=original; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Do you have a reference to the original work? It sounds very interesting Dan Veilleux in the mountains of NC zone 6a -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 21:38:56 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Passing it along -with some thoughts MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi All: It is written below by Doc "The above letter is the essence of all that has been said since the arrival of AHB into the States in 1990. I encourage everyone that reads this to pass it on for the benefit of all." This I am passing along, but with comment added: Acclimitized European Honeybees, yes, do compete with so-called African honeybees for food, and yes, sized related accordingly, could indeed inter-breed to dilute their stinging behaviour; but technically then if doing this, would then be technically africanized themselves,and herein is the problem for those going before. Where does africanization stop and europeanization start or vice versa, since our area being one of the first declared on paper to be africanized, had it's industry put down by press and public perception in our cities and towns,thus reducing members in the southern part of our state from about 125 to about 9, and even at this writing we are curently going over recent burning of hives of local beekeeper in city limits from those not wanting bees within Tucson due to africanization press, yearly since first perception etc. I can see the concern now, but where was it in the past. Also,testing IMPOV really needs to be brought up to date and all data bases combined and those that don't work well eliminated for ID purposes. I can see helping new areas now, to avoid what we here have had to go thru......but, why did it have to happen in the first place. When will it also be righted? Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ Doc Bullard Golden Harvest Honey Farm Pensacola, Florida ----- Original Message ----- From: Malcolm Bullard To: FloridaBeekeepers@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 8:54 PM Subject: [FloridaBeekeepers] African Honey Bees In Florida Hello Folks, African Honey Bees In Florida As taken from the Florida Beekeepers Quarterly Chief Apiarist Jerry Hayes recently sent a letter to all county managers in Florida under the signature of Agriculture Commissioner Charles Bronson, which contained the following derived from press releases and other information: "It has become clear that the African honey bee population has gained a foothold here and will continue to grow in Florida due to the numerous pathways into the state and the lack of effective eradication products or techniques," Commissioner Bronson said. "The department, in cooperation with other agricultural stakeholders, is developing tools to protect the beekeeping industry and educate the public on how to learn to live with this potentially dangerous insect." In order to deter an environmental void, of major importance to the long term mitigation of the Africanized Honey Bee is to maintain managed European honey bee colonies in and around urban/suburban areas. Therefore, we are urging municipalities to encourage Registered Florida Beekeepers to place their gentle honey bees in those areas in the greatest numbers possible. "Large populations of European Honey bees managed by beekeepers are probably our best defense against African bees."Dr. Glenn Hall said. "The European honey bees compete with the African bees for food sources. When they inter-breed with the Africam bees, their defensive stinging behavior is reduced." We would strongly encourage you to support and embrace Registered Florida Beekeepers in your community. They are a major part of the solution in lessening the negative impact from AHB's and are a vital component in the successful production of fruits, vegetables and nuts that feed our growing populations. ******************************************************* The above letter is the essence of all that has been said since the arrival of AHB into the States in 1990. I encourage everyone that reads this to pass it on for the benefit of all. Regards, Doc Pensacola Fl __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 04:23:13 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: Can Mite Counts be Counted on? In-Reply-To: <000f01c61bc7$7ba1c900$6501a8c0@DanJan> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- Dan&jan wrote: > Do you have a reference to the original work? It > sounds very interesting The information appeared in an article in January 2006 Bee Culture 'Research Reviewed' by Steve Sheppard Titled: "Selection and possibilities within honeybees - Be careful what you select for." Maybe someone can ask Steve Sheppard if he could provide the reference to the original work. Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' My Site: http://www.biologicalbeekeeping.com Organic Bee Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Organicbeekeepers/ Feral Bee Project: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FeralBeeProject/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 14:15:54 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Passing it along -with some thoughts Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit One can take issue with Florida's guidelines. >>"The European honey bees compete with the African bees for food sources. But who is to say that EHBs can effectively outcompete AHBs to the point of keeping the AHBs numbers in check. Increasing EBHs colonies around urban areas is positive notheless. However, it remains to be seen how the general population reacts - it's not possible to distinguish an EHB from an AHB on a flower in one's garden... Folks will wonder what they are looking at. If in doubbt, the suspicion will be be it's an AHB. If increased EHB numbers will not prevent massive stinging incidents, folks will demand the removal/eradiaction of all honey bees. >>When they inter-breed with the Africam bees, their defensive stinging behavior is reduced." Is there any data to support this? AHB moved through EHB territiry from Brazil all the way to the American South-West, and their defensive nature has not abated according to the reports. AHB produce drones quicker, earlier in the season and are reported to have the upper hand in mating. The cold regions of Argentina have not seen widespread AHB ferals and this is the only hope in sight that feral AHBs will not dominate in the northern US or Canada. These are vain efforts on the part of the Floridians, in my opinion. But, if there are no other options, any effort is to be encouraged. Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 11:59:32 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Jo=E3o=20Campos?= Subject: What makes bees cap honey? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Many beekeepers add a lot of empty supers, with drawn combs, at the beggining of the nectar season. I think there's little doubt about the properness of this action, since so many researches have pointed out a greater hoard tendency when there's a lot of empty combs in the hive and nectar coming in. The bees also take advantage of all that space by spreading the collected nectar widely, which induces a faster dehydration. But I've noticed that, with unlimited space (gathered nectar << available space), my bees sometimes tend to leave most of the honey scattered, capping only a minor part, especially next to brood. Anna Maurizio, in Eva Crane's "Honey: a Comprehensive Survey", describes the process of filling and capping the honey cells in some detail, but doesn't give a clue about what exactly stimulates the bees to "regather" the scattered honey and then cap the cells. I've read that honey moisture is the criterium bees used, but it can't be the only one, since a lot of uncapped honey may sometimes present the same (low or high) moisture level as the capped honey - and may sometimes be left uncapped for a long time, even after the flow (my own observation). Lack of empty space surely is a motivation to regather the scattered honey, as well as initially filling the cells whith a lot more of unripened nectar (at a cost of a long delay in dehydration). But what if the space is unlimited? Are environmental conditions important? Harvesting uncapped honey is usually not a problem, provided its moisture is low enough. It is even easier, since little or no uncapping is necessary, and it probably maximizes the bees productivity, because they don't have to eat more honey to make the cappings. But it's more labor consuming, because one has to handle more supers and combs, and the beeswax from the cappings may be important to the beekeeper. So what is better, only capped combs or mixed (capped/uncapped) combs? Of course the answer will vary. For those who'd like to get only capped combs, is there a way to force the bees to regather and cap the scattered honey? I've tried to stack wet frames (after extraction) next to a hive, leaving a narrow passage for the bees. I hoped they would cross the passage and "rescue" their lost honey. That indeed happened, but it seemed that the bees started to consider the new stack of supers as an extension of their hive, and it became full of bees (not the queen) since then. I wonder what would happen if I did the same with, let's say, half of the (uncapped) supers, before extracting. Would the bees take the honey back, next to the brood? Or would they do nothing, only adapt to a weirder hive configuration? Or, on the other side, how distant I'd have to put the uncapped combs so the bees would just take the honey back? What do you think? What makes bees cap honey? João _______________________________________________________ Yahoo! doce lar. Faça do Yahoo! sua homepage. http://br.yahoo.com/homepageset.html -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 07:33:54 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: mark berninghausen Subject: Re: Passing it along -with some thoughts In-Reply-To: <20060118.061600.8638.49616@webmail44.nyc.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >From what I've been told, part of the reason for AHbs not spreading any further then they have, in parts of South America, is the lack of the migratory beekeeping that we need here in the U.S. "waldig@netzero.com" wrote: The cold regions of Argentina have not seen widespread AHB ferals and this is the only hope in sight that feral AHBs will not dominate in the northern US or Canada. --------------------------------- Yahoo! Photos Ring in the New Year with Photo Calendars. Add photos, events, holidays, whatever. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 08:17:58 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Passing it along -with some thoughts In-Reply-To: <20060118.061600.8638.49616@webmail44.nyc.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Waldemar writes: Is there any data to support this? AHB moved through EHB territiry from Brazil all the way to the American South-West, and their defensive nature has not abated according to the reports. AHB produce drones quicker, earlier in the season and are reported to have the upper hand in mating. Reply: This is where our fight with Testing data bases, and how done comes into play (FABIS and others), and also another reason for SC field management(placing bees back onto a natural system). For Dr Shepard and others (Taylor comes to mind) have noted mating breakouts, which IMPOV is size related, so much have honeybees been upsized by LC foundations, to the detriment of races/strains for broader variability. You see change one word and "SCBs produce drones quicker, earlier in the season and are reproted to have the upper hand in mating.", or in this case one on one combat, besides making for gentlier bees to keep that are also mite tolerant and disease tolerant also. But added, now coloration starts to play a big part! Oh, the price of color. Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 17:24:03 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Passing it along -with some thoughts Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dee, >>...another reason for SC field management(placing bees back onto a natural system). It's hard to see how small cell will keep AHB numbers down. AHB ferals came into contact with EHB ferals and EHB managed hives in both Americas and dominated where the climate was mild enough for them to survive from season to season. In urban areas in particular, AHB finds ample forage and cavities for nesting. And relatively few EHB colonies. >>For Dr Shepard and others (Taylor comes to mind) have noted mating breakouts, which IMPOV is size related... What is a mating breakout? Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 14:45:54 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: bob darrell Subject: Re: Passing it along -with some thoughts In-Reply-To: <20060118.061600.8638.49616@webmail44.nyc.untd.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v728) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 18-Jan-06, at 2:15 PM, waldig@netzero.com wrote: > > The cold regions of Argentina have not seen widespread AHB ferals > and this is the only hope in sight that feral AHBs will not > dominate in the northern US or Canada. > Does Argentina have a migratory beekeeping industry to take hives from the AHB areas to the "cold regions" or package bee industry located in the AHB area shipping packages to the "cold regions". In North America migratory operators bring bees from the southern US to the Canadian border, then Canadian migratory operators (in Ontario at least) take their hives from the region adjacent to the border, 400 miles further north. Package bees are not allowed across the border, but AHB swarms certainly could cross. Bob Darrell Caledon Ontario Canada 80W44N -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 16:20:51 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Passing it along -with some thoughts In-Reply-To: <20060118.092411.1775.50688@webmail62.nyc.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Waldemar writes: What is a mating breakout? Reply: It means that European honeybees normally on LC Combs vs more natural ferals, or European honeybees on SC combs, or even so-called AHBs have different mating parameters, so to dilute you have to be in the same pond and/or similar flight aerodynamics. Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 10:45:24 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Passing it along -with some thoughts In-Reply-To: <20060119002051.84982.qmail@web51613.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Dee & all > It means that European honeybees normally on LC Combs vs > more natural ferals, or European honeybees on SC combs, or > even so-called AHBs have different mating parameters, The difference in mating preferences appears to be size related and race related. If you look at... http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/sizematingpreference.html "Drones mating with the smaller OD models had significantly lower thorax mass than those mating with the larger OD models" Would indicate that small queens attract small drones, but (in another part of the document) that drones of all sizes are attracted to queens with large bore sting chambers. The end result of this is that small drones will mate with more or less any size of queen, whereas larger drones are less likely to mate with small queens. If we have a situation whereby AHB are small and EHB are larger the AHB genes should proliferate at the expense of the European bee genes. The way I read it the AHB will gain in influence as the percentage shifts to favour the propagation of genes from small drones (which are in the main AHB) There are other issues about mating preference in cross race matings whereby some preference is shown for drones of similar race, but I think this feature is also represented more strongly in AHB and so European bees seems doomed in the extreme long term to be overwhelmed as the process is progressive. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 09:16:26 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Passing it along -with some thoughts >now coloration starts to play a big part! Oh, the price of color. Body Size and Color Body color is a very unreliable characteristic for identification of AHB. Although they tend to be dark and distinctively striped, there is considerable variation within the AHB population. Also, some European honey bees may show similar coloration. http://mainebee.com/articles/ahbehb_html.php -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 08:31:22 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Passing it along -with some thoughts In-Reply-To: <43CF6DC4.8000308@lineone.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dave Cushman writes: The end result of this is that small drones will mate with more or less any size of queen, whereas larger drones are less likely to mate with small queens. If we have a situation whereby AHB are small and EHB are larger the AHB genes should proliferate at the expense of the European bee genes. Reply: Exactly, So to keep ones own European bees, then the artificialy enlarged combs/foundation then become a detriment to keeping better European stock, which then when placed back onto a clean natural sustainable system again including SC sizing helps to keep you better able to control your stock lines and also breed down anything detrimental. So is then bigger better as was thought for the past 100 years or more then weighing the benefits against the detriments? What was gained vs what has been lost to our industry worldwide? That to me is a huge question..... Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 08:41:09 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Passing it along -with some thoughts In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Peter writes: Although they tend to be dark and distinctively striped, there is considerable variation within the AHB population. Also, some European honey bees may show similar coloration. Reply: And yet for so many years they were said to breed true as to color and other markers (national Geo Mag even). Also, what is dark and distinctively striped as this is double meaning to many?...is it a turn to black? or is it simply darker coloration of originally seen Italian coloration and hence the problem? Can you clarify.........for when you say dark many perceive all black and this is just not true, nor has it ever been for Scuts! Also, it shows how yellow in coloration maybe our bees have been artificially bred........ Ending, which European honeybees may show similar coloration? This needs to be talked out for understanding by many, so this problem can be understood and then possibly bred for control. Do Europeans see it as as problem also? Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 12:04:49 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Beekeeping Associations Comments: cc: Claire & Paul Desilets , Wendy Booth , Anthony.M.Jadczak@maine.gov Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-72DF1DE3 I have been asked some questions that I can't answer. She wants to know how many people are in beekeeping associations. So, if you are in a position to know, I would ask the following. How many beekeepers are there in the US, and Canada, and how many colonies? How many are Commercial. How many are sideliners or hobbyists. How many are in your association, state or local? Please include the name of the association, for example, The Massachusetts Beekeepers Association, or the Essex County Association, both in Massachusetts. Or, The Empire State Beekeepers Association in NY, and SABA near Albany. Also, national Associations such as AHPA, ABF, EAS, WAS, etc. Thanks Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.17/229 - Release Date: 1/13/2006 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 17:13:49 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Passing it along -with some thoughts Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>Does Argentina have a migratory beekeeping industry to take hives from the AHB areas to the "cold regions"... I was hoping for an Argentine beekeeper to answer.:) A google search brings up references to Argentina as being one of the top migratory countries in the world. Don't forget that AHB colonized parts of South and Central America by the mere spread of ferals. Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 10:31:19 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Passing it along -with some thoughts In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Peter Borst wrote: Body color is a very unreliable characteristic for identification of AHB. I have heard somebody make the suggestion that cordovan colored bees are a very good indicator signaling the influx of AHB into the colony. If all the workers are cordovan colored and then you suddenly get darker colored worker bees alighting onto the landing board, it's a pretty strong signal that something is amiss. Mike Located in lower Alabama --------------------------------- Yahoo! Photos – Showcase holiday pictures in hardcover Photo Books. You design it and we’ll bind it! -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 12:17:38 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Adrian M. Wenner" Subject: Bee coloration In-Reply-To: <20060119183119.10903.qmail@web53403.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v623) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Jan 19, 2006, at 10:31 AM, Mike Stoops wrote: > Peter Borst wrote: > > Body color is a very unreliable characteristic for identification of > AHB. Peter is correct on that statement. My good friend, Harry Laidlaw (bee geneticist but now deceased) told me he could take a colony of any one color of bees and turn it into a colony of a very different color within a few generations. Adrian Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home office phone) 967 Garcia Road wenner@lifesci.ucsb.edu Santa Barbara, CA 93103 www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/index.htm ******************************************************************* * "...the intensity of the conviction that a hypothesis is true has * no bearing on whether it is true or not." * * Peter Medawar (1979) ******************************************************************* -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 18:12:44 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: bob darrell Subject: Re: Beekeeping Associations In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20060119115104.012af1b8@pop.together.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v728) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 19-Jan-06, at 12:04 PM, Michael Palmer wrote: > > She wants to know how many people are in beekeeping associations. > > Hi Mike and all I am a member of 4 beekeeping associations: - Canadian Honey Council - national beekeeping association - Ontario Beekeepers Association - provincial beekeepers association - Wellington County Beekeepers Association - local association in Guelph - high quality local guest speakers - Dufferin County Beekeepers Association - local association in Orangeville - 25 members, 3 with 100 colonies most members less than 10 - 5 also members of WCBA, 8 of OBA 2 of CHC Bob Darrell Caledon Ontario Canada 80W44N -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 16:18:31 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Bee coloration In-Reply-To: <8da38bb252ccd9a7fe3fcedb46249fdf@lifesci.ucsb.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Adrian writes: My good friend, Harry Laidlaw (bee geneticist but now deceased) told me he could take a colony of any one color of bees and turn it into a colony of a very different color within a few generations. Reply: This may be true if one were just talking color, but we are not! We are talking all characteristics, for whole pot, at the same time. That means, size, body uniformity, and coloration, besides behaviour traits, being deal with at the same time, for how they, our honey bees act in the field. You change one thing and it is a domino effect for something else will always change like it or not. Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 16:31:51 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Passing it along -with some thoughts In-Reply-To: <20060119183119.10903.qmail@web53403.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Mike writes: then you suddenly get darker colored worker bees alighting onto the landing board, it's a pretty strong signal that something is amiss. Reply: Define darker colored worker bees here............as pertains to scuts. I would say darker ORANGEISH from what color photographs I have seen, especially back in the 1980s even. and here you can reference Calif Agric Nov/Dec 1985 pg 4, and American Scientist Sep/Oct 1988. So today telling our modern lighter Italians apart might not be so hard, from those in the 1980s or earlier, but then what have we lost since then in going lighter?;not to mention even larger cell sizes artificially? Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 19:37:48 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Where do the beneficial mites go in winter? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi all: Question: There are several beneficial mites in beehives in various spots. Where do they go in winter when honeybees cluster in freezing temps, to keep from being frozen themselves and yet find food to stay alive? Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 09:48:59 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Beekeeping Associations In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Mike & all The question was aimed at USA & Canada, but I offer a UK comparison, I can only speak for my county in UK... About 50% of beekeepers are members of the county association, although the trend for membership is rising slightly. 85% of these beekeepers keep between 5 and 15 hives. About 5% less than 5 hives The rest being anywhere between 15 hives and a couple of thousand (with an average of about 80). About 20% of the membership attend meetings. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 03:59:25 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: mark berninghausen Subject: Re: Where do the beneficial mites go in winter? In-Reply-To: <20060118033748.17363.qmail@web51613.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit If Dee is asking about beneficial mites in hives, that are similar to the mites that are under my couch, then like other critters, such as Lady Bugs or Hornets, I imagine that these beneficial mites, get into a place where they can survive. Many of them do, but most don't. Isn't that the way things often work, ion nature? Is there a question behind the question? Is Dee trying to lead us somewhere? Did someone on orgbkprs ask about this? I imagine that Dee is asking about mites that feed on the trash from the bottom board? Dee Lusby wrote: "Question: There are several beneficial mites in beehives in various spots. Where do they go in winter " --------------------------------- Yahoo! Autos. Looking for a sweet ride? Get pricing, reviews, & more on new and used cars. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 12:03:26 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Passing it along /more thoughts In-Reply-To: <20060119163122.94820.qmail@web51606.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Dee You seem to only be concerned about the range of body sizes where European and Africanised bees overlap and cannot be differentiated by size. You said... > So to keep ones own European bees, then the > artificialy enlarged combs/foundation then become a > detriment to keeping better European stock, As European races, in particular Carnica, Caucasica & AMM, naturally exhibit larger body sizes and cell sizes than Africanised bees or Italian bees, then in maintaining stocks in areas that are not Africanised, it makes more sense to use those cell sizes that are relevant to the size of body of the bee concerned. Although it can be demonstrated that bee stock can be forced over several generations to adopt different cell sizes (both smaller and larger) there is no evidence to show that these differently sized specimens are advantageous in performance or disease and parasite resistance. What studies do exist, sometimes contradict each other and there is no trend that occurs on a consistent and repeatable basis. You appear to be having some success in combating varroa mites, whether that success can be attributed to the cell size that you are using is a separate issue. You live in an area that is ideal for Africanised bees, with the majority of stock in the US having a strong content of Italian genes (Italians have the smallest natural body size of all European races). You then go on to use a smaller cell size that this Italianised baseline would use if left to itself. You cite better varroa tolerance as your reason for the smaller cell size, but the conclusions that many would come to is that you are attempting to homogenise Italian and Africanised stocks in your area to create a 'small body sized' gene pool, then merely selecting among the resulting hybrid bees, for a strain that was more manageable than those extremes of Africanised bee behaviour that are hyped up by the press. And that what losses you were having among your bees were being made up on a regular basis by splitting existing colonies (the vigour of the Africanised bees helping to rebuild colony strength more quickly). I have no doubt of your conviction and dedication to your cause, your results are impressive and have impressed many of your visitors, you have a group of followers that subscribe to many of your practices and will repeat many of your dogmas, but such repetition, no matter how often or loudly made, can ever make up for evidence gained from experiments able to be replicated by others. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 05:02:35 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: mark berninghausen Subject: Bee Clubs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Mike, Check out ESHPA.org. On the Empire State Honey Producers Association web site you will find a list of all of the known Beekeepers Clubs in NYS. Maybe that would be true for most states. It seems like EAS and WAS should have a similar list, that may lead to other lists. Someone could be a good samaritan and have, or keep up to date, all of that info. Maybe David Green has that sort of info at his web site, pollinator.com,I think. Or something like that. Good luck. Gotta run, my honey is calling. Mark --------------------------------- Yahoo! Photos – Showcase holiday pictures in hardcover Photo Books. You design it and we’ll bind it! -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 08:37:47 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: The bees were miserable specimens FWIW: The use of "large cell foundation" was actually a reaction against the use of unnaturally small cells, an idea which predated the larger cells. [quote] In intensive bee-culture, the question of cell size is of great importance. It is inseparable from those of race-selection and of the improvement of the capacity for egg-laying and accumulating stores. About 1891, foundation with cells 920 to the sq. dm. was introduced into our country. Beekeepers all adopted this size of cell. The experts of that time believed that it was advantageous to produce as many bees as possible on the least possible surface of comb. Thus there was a premature narrowing of the cells, and at the end of a few years the bees were miserable specimens. It was then that, to combat so harmful a tendency, I published an article in Progres Apicole (June 1893) advocating the use of larger cells, as a result of experiments duly described. I had experimented up to the limit of 750 cells per sq. dm. These sizes of cells were obtained by stretching foundation. Mr. Auguste Mees subsequently made them by stretching the sheets as they came off the cylinders, in 1893 to 1895. [end quote] from THE INFLUENCE OF CELL SIZE. By Prof. U. BAUDOUX, Rucher-ecole experimental de Tervueren-lez- Bruxelles. Belgium. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 08:33:14 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Passing it along /more thoughts In-Reply-To: <43D0D18E.80406@lineone.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dave Cushman writes: You seem to only be concerned about the range of body sizes where European and Africanised bees overlap and cannot be differentiated by size. As European races, in particular Carnica, Caucasica & AMM, naturally exhibit larger body sizes and cell sizes than Africanised bees or Italian bees, then in maintaining stocks in areas that are not Africanised, it makes more sense to use those cell sizes that are relevant to the size of body of the bee concerned. Reply: Yes, Dave you say it quite well in both these stmts above, and herein is the artificial problem created now perplexing many with their honeybees. For there is overlap in size, in all races/strains of honeybees mentioned by you. For nowadays in our modern world, the domestics have been artificially bred to the high end/larger end of the natural occurring size spectrum to the detriment of the bees, creating less variability, that is necessary for fighting todays problems. To gain variability, now the bottom rails of the natural occurring size spectrum, need to be used again, to get the bees back off the top of the mountain, to the lowlands so they can regain the variability they have lost. Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 08:51:53 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: The bees were miserable specimens In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Peter writes: The use of "large cell foundation" was actually a reaction against the use of unnaturally small cells, an idea which predated the larger cells Reply: Yes, and going too small can be detrimental too Peter. You are so right here, for it would make it hard to extract the thicker honeys, especially here in our thick desert honey area of S. Arizona on the Upper Sonoran Desert with 12 - 13 % moisture honeys. That's why we had to read very carefully these old words which we have referenced many times to others, for we are commercial beekeepers. You don't want to shoot yourself in the foot. It's also why we regressed down in steps following the bees needs, to only where problems stopped with both mites and secondary infections so we could go back to working them. 8 years the first time, and now 10 years (a decade) the second time and without all the various treatments others are told to use. You know Peter, we ended up in the center of the naturally occurring sizing spectrum with 4.9mm and not the bottom. Perhaps only going half way down is better. For if the bees then want to go smaller, they can using this foundation (nothing stopping them resizing it a size smaller), or if the bees then want to go slightly larger they can also, depending upon their needs. Glad you pointed Prof Baudoux out, for one certainly doesn't want to go too small either......just do what works and be happy. Respectfully Submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 10:30:29 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Overwintering mites Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Dee asks about mites in winter, specifically beneficial mites. I don't have a direct answer to that, but offer this observation. Some years ago, we did a 2 year (24 month) study of tracheal and varroa mites in honey bee colonies located at yards near East Helena. MT winter temperatures in that area, at that time, dropped to -20 F or colder. We HAD to sample each month -- a bit of a trick in its own right -- how to sample without unduly stressing the bees. We immediately froze all sampled bees, placed them in a freezer in the lab, and then pulled samples to cut to look for tracheal mites. We found that bees in the fridge had live tracheal mites. More interestingly, frozen bee samples, when thawed, had live mites. Not all of the mites were alive, but enough were that we decided to push it a bit. The limit for Tracheal mites seemed to be two weeks at -20 degree F. More time or much colder and the mites were all dead. Jerry -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 13:51:21 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Overwintering mites In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20060120102456.041a6ec0@mso.umt.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Jerry Bromenshenk Reason I asked this question was that recently got a picture of perhaps deer ticks or other???, being found on bodies of honeybees in cold climate. This then got to thinking about other beneficial mites, already in beehives, and wondering if they moved or congregated in cold months, and if so where? could they go to the bodies of our honeybees, like the similar deer tick sample found, and known to be there even in samples in Europe, from inquiry received back? I could find no published references to same in books I looked thru. But honeybees and mites on bottom boards do meet physically, so others in beehives feeding/co-existing would too. Does anyone know where to find information relative to this? Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 11:00:35 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: j h & e mcadam Subject: Re: Beekeeping Associations Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi, all Smaller areas possibly have less trouble in keeping in touch. On Kangaroo Island, South Australia, we have a common interest in protection of the bee sanctuary declared in 1885 for preservation of the Ligurian honeybee (Apis Mellifera Ligustica). Many members have 2 hives only. Some 3 years ago there were 19 registered beekeepers on the Island and our current association membership is 21 beekeepers (we also liaise with tourism, national park and agricultural associations). We are affiliated with the State apiarists association (there is also a rival group through the Farmers Federation) and membership of beekeepers State-wide is far less (I think Trevor Weatherhead would have accurate figures so I won't guess here). About 8 members attend meetings regularly (it is a long drive at night on bad roads, with kangaroos and wallabies leaping out in front of vehicles). There are registered beekeepers on the Island who have dropped out of or never joined our association but whose support can be relied on. Regards Betty McAdam >The question was aimed at USA & Canada, but I offer a UK comparison, I >can only speak for my county in UK... About 50% of beekeepers are >members of the county association, although the trend for membership is >rising slightly. > >85% of these beekeepers keep between 5 and 15 hives. About 5% less than >5 hives The rest being anywhere between 15 hives and a couple of >thousand (with an average of about 80). > >About 20% of the membership attend meetings. > > >Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY >http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net >Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) > >-- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- > HOG BAY APIARY Penneshaw, Kangaroo Island J.H. & E. McAdam Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "D. Murrell" Subject: Re: The bees were miserable specimens Hello Everyone, Just what is too large? And just what is too small? Check out what A.I. Root said of this matter as he was developing foundation milling. He measured natural comb and tried a range of cell sizes for acceptance before foundation was widely available. Cross reference his measurements with the table. Cell sizes pretty much correlate with the foundation available today. And he has lots to say about Prof. U. Baudoux's experiments. I don't think the American's bought into Europes enlargement ideas. http://bwrangler.atspace.com/sair.htm So some beekeepers put bees in cells that are too small. And some put them into cells that are too big. But if beekeepers would let the bees do it for themselves the cell size would be just right. Check out the rest of the small cell beekeeping on my site. Bees don't draw out one size worker cell. And small cell bees, large cell bees and feral bees all drawn out the same kind of cell size distribution. That's what naturally happens when bees do it there way. So it's not large or small. But large AND small. And both are important! And if I were Little Miss Red Riding Hood, I could eat all the bowls of pourrage. The hot ones. The cold one. And the one this is just right :>))) Regards Dennis -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 12:52:50 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: j h & e mcadam Subject: Re: A Successful Invader; mtDNA Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I have been following the thread on mtDNA with interest and hope there some of the learned contributors can clarify a question for me. Peter Borst quoted from THE AFRICAN HONEY BEE: .. Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: mark berninghausen Subject: New York State Apiary Inspection MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The New York Apiary Inspection workforce of Inspectors will be reduced by half to about seven inspectors for the 2006 season. A ruling by the NY State"s Ethics Committee says that any Apiary Inspector who generates income from their own beekeeping activities can no longer work as an Apiary Inspector. Therefore half of those who worked this past season can not be hired to do the job, of an Apiary Inspector. So, if Apiary Inspection in New York State is important to you, do something. Not for me. They can't employee me. If the program is important to you, get behind it and push. Show your support. If it's not, let it go or show your point of view, too. Mark Berninghausen --------------------------------- Yahoo! Autos. Looking for a sweet ride? Get pricing, reviews, & more on new and used cars. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 20:12:30 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Passing it along /more thoughts In-Reply-To: <20060120163314.45028.qmail@web51605.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dee Lusby wrote:To gain variability, now the bottom rails of the natural occurring size spectrum, need to be used again, to get the bees back off the top of the mountain, to the lowlands so they can regain the variability they have lost. Regression to a smaller size does not necessarily initiate variability. That comes from the integration of different lines of a strain of bee; the more lines utilized, the greater the variability. Mike --------------------------------- Yahoo! Photos Got holiday prints? See all the ways to get quality prints in your hands ASAP. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 00:06:36 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: The bees were miserable specimens >The use of "large cell foundation" was actually a reaction >against the use of unnaturally small cells, an idea which >predated the larger cells > >Reply: >Yes, and going too small can be detrimental too Peter. You >are so right here Once again, you misunderstand me. My reason for quoting the article was to show that small cells were tried over 100 years ago and found to be detrimental. They were trying to get more bees per frame, a knuckleheaded idea anyway. But then, Badoux figures if you were going to change the size of bees, why not make them bigger? Bigger IS better, for a lot of things. I noticed a long time ago, that being short has many drawbacks, especially in beekeeping. Bigger bees COULD make more honey, defend themselves better, winter better, etc. It didn't really catch on. If the cells are very much bigger than normal, you run the risk of getting a lot of drones, instead of bigger workers. 5 cells to the inch is natural, and there is no need (in my opinion) to vary it. Apis mellifera tends to be smaller in the tropics and larger in the temperate zone. Perhaps the bigger size is an evolutionary result of the colder climate. Of course, there are other species of honey bee that are much bigger and much smaller, but these are all tropical. There may in fact be an ideal size to winter successfully in a climate which has up to 6 months of winter. I wouldn't tamper with that. pb ref: Badoux, U: The influence of cell size. Bee World -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 07:55:49 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ruary Rudd Subject: Re: The bees were miserable specimens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello all, I am afraid that Dennis is mixing up his fairy tales it was Goldilocks who ate the porrige, Red Riding Hood was eaten by the wolf Ruary Ah the joys of grandparenthood. ----- Original Message ----- From: "D. Murrell" To: Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2006 2:21 AM Subject: Re: [BEE-L] The bees were miserable specimens > > And if I were Little Miss Red Riding Hood, I could eat all the bowls of > pourrage. The hot ones. The cold one. And the one this is just right :>))) > > Regards > Dennis -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 02:41:10 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: mark berninghausen Subject: AHb: what has it meant... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit For those of you in states or countrys, where AHb has been positively identified and where it has established itself, what has it's presence meant to you and especially to the general population? How should we, here in New York State, be thinking about AHb? How should we be dealing with the non-beekeeping citizens of NY who might have concerns about AHb? Thanks, Mark Berninghausen --------------------------------- Yahoo! Photos Ring in the New Year with Photo Calendars. Add photos, events, holidays, whatever. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 07:57:19 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: New York State Apiary Inspection In-Reply-To: <20060121030833.53441.qmail@web32105.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-77EE1244 > Show your support. Give us a contact address, Mark. After doing such a great job last year, it figures they would drop the ball this. Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.21/236 - Release Date: 1/20/2006 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 09:57:25 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Blundering Along in Bee Breeding MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Blundering Along in Bee Breeding Bee breeding has doubtless suffered more than has breeding of other animals from a lack of correct ideas of the laws of inheritance, it is gratifying to note that men of science are giving some attention to this subject but it would be better still if some of them would give us something through the press to take the place of the many ideas which so often suggest or directly teach wrong ideas. We know that color and temper are separately inheritable, also size and color, and a little is known concerning a few other characters, but very little about any. Our great need just now is for some information that we can get from no body but the geneticist, whether cytologist or experimental breeder or both. Can’t we have a contribution now and then dealing with inheritance as it occurs in our strange little animals? Every breeder will welcome something really instructive for without some help on our problems we will just keep on blundering along and do but little in a long time. C. C. Stone, Clarksville, Texas In "The Beekeepers Item" June, 1925 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 10:38:20 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "D. Murrell" Subject: Re: The bees were miserable specimens Hi Guys, >Check out what A.I. Root said of this matter.... I made several mistakes on my last post. Sorry. The URL should be: http://bwrangler.atspace.com/bee/sair.htm I left out the bee part! And sadly, but rightly so, you all now know the truth. I flunked out of kindergarden. It was Goldilocks and not Red Riding Hood who did the eating, instead of being eaten. :>) Regards Dennis -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 11:05:21 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: A Successful Invader; mtDNA Comments: To: J H & E Mcadam Betty McAdam writes: >I have been following the thread on mtDNA with interest and hope there some >of the learned contributors can clarify a question for me. > >Study of geographic variation in the mtDNA of honey bees has revealed four >geographic lineages of mtDNA mitotypes > >How does this relate to the classification of races within Apis Mellifera? reply: First off, let me say this: I am not a geneticist. My interest in evolutionary biology is that of an amateur (from Latin amator "lover", from amare "to love"). If you still believe in evolution, which evidently a lot of Americans these days say they don't, the explanation is thus: Honey bees come from a common ancestor, perhaps in what is now India or Africa. They were classified in the 1800s into the groups we have today, based on observed characteristics such as color, size, behavior and locale. Various populations of honey bees were geographically isolated from one another over more or less time. The longer time elapsed, the more the subset evolved and hence, became differentiated from the original ancestor and other populations in other locales. As a result, we see the various species like Apis mellifera and A. cerana, which cannot interbreed, and the so-called races such as A. m. ligustica and A. m. carnica, which can. The study of DNA is relatively new, and mostly supports the original classification, and also supports the evolutionary explanation. Bees races that were not very far apart when discovered, logically have genetic material that is the very similar. This, of course, does not account for why there should be separate species in the same area, such as India. We speculate that these are branches that separated long ago, under different conditions from those now existing. pb * * * [QUOTED MATERIAL FOLLOWS] West European mtDNA is found in western and northern Europe (A. m. mellifera Linnaeus, the European black bee), northern Spain (some A. m. iberiensis Engel), and southern Italy. East European mtDNA is found in southeastern European, the eastern Mediterranean, and Anatolian populations, including A. m. carnica Pollmann, A. m. ligustica Spinola, A. m. caucasia Pollmann, and A. m. anatoliaca Maa. The African group of mtDNAs is found north and south of the Sahara and includes A. m. capensis Eschscholtz, A. m. intermissa Maa, A. m. lamarckii Cockerell, A. m. litorea Smith, A. m. monticola Smith, A. m. sahariensis Baldensperger, and A. m. scutellata Lepeletier de Saint Fargeau. A. m. iberiensis in southern Spain carries African mtDNA. Middle Eastern or Oriental mtDNA has been found in bees from extreme southeastern Turkey, Lebanon, Jordan, and Israel (D.R. Smith, unpublished data). At least three, and probably all four, mitochondrial lineages have been introduced into the New World. The west European linage, primarily A. m. mellifera, dominated sixteenth through eighteenth century introductions into North and South America. The east European lineage, primarily A. m. ligustica, A. m. carnica, and A. m. caucasia, dominated subsequent introductions. North African bees, such as Egyptian A. m. lamarckii were also introduced, and this African mtDNA was present at low frequency in feral North American populations prior to the arrival of the African bee from Latin America. >From "The African Honey Bee: Factors Contributing to a Successful Biological Invasion", by Stanley Scott Schneider, et al. * * * We analyzed 536 honeybees from the 54 sites [in southwestern Arizona]. 86.9% possessed Africanized mtDNA, 4.1% had eastern European mtDNA, 5.6% had western European mtDNA, and 3.4% had Egyptian mtDNA. All 54 sites had honeybees with Africanized genetic material. Mean percent of bees with Africanized mtDNA per site was 88% and ranged from 50% (3 sites) to 100% (21 sites). Honeybees with eastern European mtDNA were found at 16 sites, bees with western European mtDNA were found at 14 sites, and bees with Egyptian mtDNA were found at 10 sites. Percent of Africanization per site was unrelated to distance from agricultural activity. Likewise, there was no relationship between elevation and percent Africanization. From: "Feral Africanized Honey Bees (Apis mellifera) in Sonoran Desert Habitats Of Southwestern Arizona" by Michael J. Rabe, et al. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 09:04:54 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: The bees were miserable specimens In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit ...why > not make them bigger? Bigger IS better, for a lot of > things. This is NOT true when talking within a single species. Any gains would likely be mitigated by shorter life and productivity of the organism, and in honeybees longevity is very important. Longevity will result in more bee population and productivity of the colony and subsequent better wintering. According to Dr. Sell in a Jan. 1, 2006 CBS news story: "The Quest For Immortality" "Small seems to live longer, within your own species. Across species, small is shorter. Mice live shorter than elephants," says Sell. "But within mice, the smaller mice seem to live longer. Within dogs, smaller dogs live longer." > Bigger bees COULD make more honey,,, This is not necessarily true. Baring bad genetics, poor health etc. the productivity of a honeybee colony is all about strength in numbers. Yes, big bees carry a larger pay load, but the more numbers of smaller bees as a result of more laying space and longevity will be better able to provide the work force needed to carry out more nectar processing chores within the colony, drying, fanning, capping etc. defend themselves > better, winter better, > etc. Here again, strength in numbers is important to mount a successful attack (refrence Napoleon). Best Wishes, JW __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 09:11:00 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: The bees were miserable specimens In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Peter Sorry to say, back in the 1880s/1890s many were experimenting with making artificial foundations and combs, so more then one size then too was experimented with. Also Peter, measurements of combs/size of cells were still also done differently by several countries depending upon who in control you talked too (this was finally decreed a certain way to be done I think in Germany after much debate in the 1930s or so, but left differences between the official scientific new way and the old ways of the field). Also you need to read conerning the area of inch vs MM measurements too. But, what we did was finally just take feral/wild comb measurements prior to usage of artificial foundations from as many old archives as we could find and plot them on a map to see the climatic and latitude/longitude patterns and how they broke out (took over 3 years just doing this). First initial map Bee Culture printed (for N. Amerca) while we were still working on the final more detailed one for all continents. Then we shook down and went backwards into the natural spectrum of sizing. First hopefully to 5.0mm sizing on which our bees lived with mites, but stress and secondaries still got; and then to correct the secondaries and retool finer, we went to 4.9mm in the center of the natural cell sizes/comb sizes to solve our problem, along with letting the bees acclimitize themselves and sort out, to see where things bottomed. In other words we looked for the size first to use being commercial and then the mills. And getting mills by the way back then wasn't easy, had to originally make some of my own while talking Toma into making the 4.9mm for us all thru the middle to late 1980s up until middle 1990s until we finally got one. Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 09:19:25 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Passing it along /more thoughts In-Reply-To: <20060121041230.26411.qmail@web53410.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Mike writes: That comes from the integration of different lines of a strain of bee; the more lines utilized, the greater the variability. Reply: Unfortunately, in the real world Nature does not work with complex mongrels. Nature works with simple hybrids breeding into and out of climatic areas in accordance with latitude and longitude of given local areas. So to get greater variability in Nature you have smaller and to have less variability you have bigger, like going up to the top of a mountain for less pasture and down again to the lowlands for more pasture. Also the color variation is less this way when looking at the tergits on your honeybees, so you can tell which ways your bees are breeding; but this also takes time with acclimitization again which many will have to do. Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http;//group.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 09:26:46 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: New York State Apiary Inspection In-Reply-To: <20060121030833.53441.qmail@web32105.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit ...A ruling by the NY State"s Ethics Committee says > that any Apiary Inspector who generates income from > their own beekeeping activities can no longer work > as an Apiary Inspector. Therefore half of those who > worked this past season can not be hired to do the > job, of an Apiary Inspector. This is good, as it will remove the conflict of interest. The inspection program is very important and I am highly supportive. But when you have (this is hypothetically now) an inspector bringing a competitor into your apiary when your not home to snoop in your hives, or other such things, this is BAD. This is probably a good move as full time inspectors would be able to cut the workforce in half and provide better service. Again, I am highly supportive of the Inspection Program. JW __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 10:41:54 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Diluting the genetics of AHB In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Peter Borst wrote:FROM QUOTED MATERIAL: .......and A. m. scutellata Lepeletier de Saint Fargeau. A. m. iberiensis in southern Spain carries African mtDNA. The idea immediately popped to my mind. What are the characteristics of this strain of bee? Would it interbreed with the AHB strains that are migrating into the U.S.? What would the effects be on the behavior of such interbreeding? Do we dare import more strains into the U.S. in an effort to mitigate the effects of the AHB? Mike --------------------------------- What are the most popular cars? Find out at Yahoo! Autos -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 14:01:38 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Diluting the genetics of AHB In-Reply-To: <20060121184154.57590.qmail@web53411.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Mike writes: Do we dare import more strains into the U.S. in an effort to mitigate the effects of the AHB? Reply: Why? if we have the capability already available with bees here now? coming to mind would be caucasian type, which ranges in coloration all the way from yellow to black. But then could these be tested as european and not read out as african, like the bees you mention in Southern Spain? Herein seems to be the problem with bees that seem to come together naturally in Nature. Also if I think about it,...didn't see caucasian mentioned with new wing vein testing being put together....anyone know if they are included or not? Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 14:09:40 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: mark berninghausen Subject: Re: New York State Apiary Inspection In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20060121075523.012bbce0@pop.together.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Michael Palmer asked for contact information for those wishing to express their feelings about NYS Apiary Inspection. The address of the Department of Ag&Mkts is 10B Airline Dr., Albany, NY 12235. The person that you want to write to is Robert J. Mungari, Director of the Division of Plant Industry. The toll free number is 1-800-554-4501. The Apiary Industry Advisory Committee Chairperson is Stephen Wilson. His address is 6626 Stitt Rd., Altamont, NY 12009. His phone number is 518-861-8020. Contact information for the Empire State Honey Producers Association can be found on line at ESHPA.org. ESHPA President Joan Ann Howland's e-mail address is beehow@aol.com and her phone number is 607-657-2517. You have my contact info. Thanks for asking. Mark --------------------------------- What are the most popular cars? Find out at Yahoo! Autos -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 18:06:17 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: New York State Apiary Inspection In-Reply-To: <20060121172646.78184.qmail@web34312.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-742A5FAF > This is good, as it will remove the conflict of >interest. Bologna! All this is going to do is ruin the inspection service. There isn't enough money to hire enough full time inspectors to do the job, and keep them employed for a full year. Would you give up your summers for a part time job, Joe? I think the way it has been run in the past has worked perfectly well. I have never seen anything underhanded in the NYS Inspection Service. The inspectors do a great job, and if they are able to run an apiary of their own, then great! Don't make it like one program I know. When the inspector finally wanted to have his own operation...of more than 50 colonies...he had to quit, and the state look for a new candidate. Stupid, if you ask me. > bringing a competitor into your apiary... You're being paranoid, Joe. And I don't believe it would cut the work force in half. There are only so many days that inspectors can work, and there aren't enough hours in the day to get the job done. I support the inspectors too, and think they should be rewarded for their work. That means a pension after years of service...oh yeah...they don't have to pay benefits to part time work..hmm. Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.21/236 - Release Date: 1/20/2006 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 19:40:38 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Beekeeping Associations MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mike Palmer asked a lot of questions regarding beekeepers. =20 Although it doesn't provide the granularity requested, a good start for = the information can be found in the "Who's Who..." secution of Bee = Culture's web page at:=20 http://www.beeculture.com/content/whoswho/index.cfm =20 Aaron Morris - I think, therefore I bee! -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 10:49:44 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Diluting the genetics of AHB > A. m. iberiensis in southern Spain carries African mtDNA. > What are the characteristics of this strain of bee? Would it interbreed with the AHB strains that are migrating into the U.S.? What would the effects be on the behavior of such interbreeding? Do we dare import more strains into the U.S. in an effort to mitigate the effects of the AHB? * It is currently illegal to import bees from outside the USA, due to the fact that there are still more honey bee pests that *you do not want*. As far as the effects of interbreeding between the African strain that is invading and any local stocks: Local bees don't stand a chance, due to the many issues described in the various studies. * The only defense, in my opinion, is good beekeeping. Requeen with marked queens of non-African stock, kill mean hives, & kill feral hives. Wild bees in the woods have always been a reservoir for disease, and now they are a potential reservoir for African genes. It all depends on the diligence of the beekeeper. * Beekeepers that are good about requeening will stay on top of it. Those that routinely allow supersedure will have a harder time maintaining a specific type of bee. I am not saying anything negative about supersedure per se, nor about developing local stock in that way. It's just that if you have Africans in your area, *they* are the local stock, and you become part of that. * By the way, iberiensis is not the one you would want. The best strains of honey bees were identified years ago, carnica being at the top of most lists. All these bees were brought to the US before the import ban. We have good stocks available in this country, even if they are not really the same as the original European stock. (B. Weaver has taken to calling one of their lines "All-American") pb -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 10:19:54 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Diluting the genetics of AHB In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Peter Borst wrote:* The only defense, in my opinion, is good beekeeping. Requeen with marked queens of non-African stock, kill mean hives, & kill feral hives. Wild bees in the woods have always been a reservoir for disease, and now they are a potential reservoir for African genes. It all depends on the diligence of the beekeeper. I agree with some of the above and take exception with some of the above. I definately believe requeening with "marked queens of non-African stock"/ However, a problem here now arises - queens of non-African stock. A lot of our traditional queen yearing yards are located in areas that have been or are subject to be, invaded by the AHB. Some of the queens coming out of Texas have produced some pretty hot hives. Have they been Africanized? I don't know, hard to tell. But when you requeen with a marked queen from a reputable breeder and a month and a half later the bees from that hive swarm and attack a tractor mowing a field just across the fence from the hive, you begin to wonder. From what has been discussed here on the list, open breeding of virgin queens is going to become a thing of the past what with the dominance of Africanized drones in the mating scenario. I would hesitate to kill feral hives or swarms from such sources. True, they might be repositories of disease, but if so would become short-lived. What is true is that feral hives that survive for more than two years has something going for them that enables them to combat disease and infestations, and that is without medications. That's something I would want to incorporate into my colonies. Don't just eradicate out-of-hand. Set swarms of these hives up in separate yards and evaluate. Good honey producers? Minimal swarming? Resistance to mites? Gentle nature? Let's look at all possiblities. Me? I'm looking for a grant source that would fund my taking instrumental insemination classes and the equipment to go with it. Any suggestions out there? Mike Located in lower Alabama --------------------------------- Yahoo! Photos Ring in the New Year with Photo Calendars. Add photos, events, holidays, whatever. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 12:48:12 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Diluting the genetics of AHB In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Peter writes: * The only defense, in my opinion, is good beekeeping. Requeen with marked queens of non-African stock, kill mean hives, & kill feral hives. Wild bees in the woods have always been a reservoir for disease, and now they are a potential reservoir for African genes. It all depends on the diligence of the beekeeper. Reply: Sorry to say, but I do not believe in marked queens due to it causing superceeding more and marking is not natural. I do believe in requeening mean hives or absorbing them into others. As for wild bees in the woods (notice you didn't say ferals ;>)), they are the BEST source for clean bees, clean wax, NO DISEASE problems, and sorted out are NOT IMPOV a source for so-called African genes. Yes it does depend upon the diligence of the beekeeper, always has. Peter continues It's just that if you have Africans in your area, *they* are the local stock, and you become part of that. Reply: That is why you need to become aware of what scuts are, and what old-fashioned Italians were in coloration and size, so you can acclimitize for health while sizing down to match the ferals, so you can end up with honeybees that fit your own area and are easy to work. Nothing wrong with being a part of that circle, it's being AFRAID that is wrong, then killing needlessly. Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercail Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 20:06:36 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Diluting the genetics of AHB Mike Stoops wrote: >I agree with some of the above and take exception with some of the above. What I presented was a summary of the experience of actual beekeepers, researchers and authorities working with African Bees in California; they fully intend to keep them out of the gene pool. Those who fail to practice tough measures get africanized. The notion that marked queens are liable to be superseded is plain nonsense. I know this from 30 years of experience. The primary cause of supersedure is junk queens. I have seen 3 year old marked queens countless times, including many *should have* been superseded. Peter Borst Danby NY USA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 17:35:40 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: Diluting the genetics of AHB In-Reply-To: <20060122204812.37544.qmail@web51601.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > Peter writes: ....Requeen with marked queens of non-African stock, > kill mean > hives, & kill feral hives. Wild bees in the woods > have > always been a reservoir for disease,,, This is not true! The evidence shows just the opposite! This study shows that managed colonies are the reservoir of disease and feral colonies are relatively free of disease. "The feral colonies with known ages had an average age of 6.7 years. Seven of 109 (6.4%) feral colonies tested positive for B. larvae spores (Table 1). The number of B. larvae colonies on the plates ranged from 1 to 3 1. All the samples of foragers taken from the 15 managed colonies tested positive for B. larvae spores (Table 2). Six of the colonies had only one larva each exhibiting clinical symptoms of American foulbrood disease. Only one of the feral colonies had a higher B. larvae colony count than the lowest colony count from the managed colonies." "This suggests that the feral honey bee population in New Zealand may be relatively free of American foulbrood disease and is therefore not a major risk to managed colonies." http://www.rsnz.org/publish/nzjz/1994/26.pdf Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' My Site: http://www.biologicalbeekeeping.com Organic Bee Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Organicbeekeepers/ Feral Bee Project: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FeralBeeProject/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 11:42:14 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Diluting the genetics of AHB In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all On a slightly separate tack, wherever the Africanised genes come from, it should be possible to reduce them by judicial re-queening, of course you have to establish the non-African nature of the stocks used for re-queening, but that is not difficult. When Apis Mellifera bees were introduced to the American continent, the vast majority were AMM types (Western European mtDNA). The selection that has gone on during the last 100 or so years has changed that drastically, with only 3% [Beltsville 1995] representation of AMM, most of the rest being Eastern European mtDNA types and a percentage of African types (I do not know these percentages). Surely it follows that by using the same methods, the African genes can be also be reduced. > The notion that marked queens are liable to be superseded > is plain nonsense. I know this from 30 years of experience. > The primary cause of supersedure is junk queens. I would like to change the emphasis of Peter's statement away from the 'junk' aspect which has connotations of poor quality, it may be that the quality is good, but not appropriate (according to the bees). I reckon that the cause of the supersedure of many introduced queens, is to do with the difference in genetic make-up between the bees in the colony and the introduced queen. I also think that the degree of difference in genes has a bearing on the likelihood of supersedure taking place. I use the term 'supersedure' in the American sense, whereby replacement is implied. The answer to this dilution of AHB lies in the recent thread about producing queens locally to suit the conditions that pertain locally and in doing the necessary morphomeric and DNA work to establish the credibility and suitability of the gene pool being utilised. (once again things that have been discussed recently) Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 04:51:29 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: Excellent Video Report on Brazilian Green Propolis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/ Video Report on Brazilian Green Propolis TV Globo, Brazil Excellent 20-minute online video report on the collection, processing, export, and medicinal qualities of Brazilian green propolis. In Portuguese with English subtitles. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 06:38:03 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Local Conditions In-Reply-To: <20060123045129.84d281a5f2f7df0ef38485a84124037d.0ed666df29.wbe@email.email.secureserver.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Just thought I'd gloat for a little. Weather conditions are mild here. Even this far south the temps are unusually high and of long duration. The temperatures have been in the lower 70's the past three days and are forcast to be in the mid 60's the rest of the week. Was into my hives Thursday and found hand sized capped brood in two to three frames in almost all the hives inspected. That even included hybridized Russian bees. Will be keeping close check on food stores and have HFCS ready to go on in case they get too light. Right now, it looks like the colonies are building up really nice for the coming spring. Where am I? I'm located at the apex of a triangle about 90 miles north of Pensacola and Mobile. Montgomery, Alabama is also about 90 miles north of me. Mike Looking forward to spring. --------------------------------- Yahoo! Autos. Looking for a sweet ride? Get pricing, reviews, & more on new and used cars. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 10:15:00 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: New York State Apiary Inspection In-Reply-To: <20060121030833.53441.qmail@web32105.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed >NY State"s Ethics Committee says that any Apiary Inspector who generates >income from their own beekeeping activities can no longer work as an >Apiary Inspector. That's a thorny issue. I understand why an apiary inspector may also keep bees (one hopes that inspectors know something about bees, like bees and beekeepers). But I also understand why the NY ethics committee has addressed this issue. My guess, they're not worried about the inspectors who have a couple of backyard hives. I can illustrate this issue from an example in my own state -- from many years ago. When I first started out, Montana had a long-term, State Bee Inspector. One of my friends hired on to help with the inspections. Turns out, the State Inspector had several hundred colonies of his own. My friend (a poor Graduate School) spent the summer on the State payroll as an assistant to the state inspector, presumably to help inspect hives. However, he spent at least half his time managing the Inspector's own hives, supering, extracting, etc.! Again, I stress, all individuals involved with this are no longer in the bee business -- and this all happened long before any of our current inspectors. Jerry -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 12:00:19 -0600 Reply-To: scot.mcpherson@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot Mc Pherson Organization: The Mc Pherson Family Honey Farms Subject: Re: New York State Apiary Inspection MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit All around it is just a conflict of interest. There are few individuals who would be swayed in one way or fashion by being both a private beekeeper and public beekeeping official. Its like being a contruction inspector and contractor at the same time. Too easy to turn a check at your own problems. Also too easy to create your own market by making it harder on others to grow. I am not saying anyone here or anyone in particular at all did, this...however the conflict of interest is still unsurmountable by all but the most honest and examplary people. -- Scot Mc Pherson The Mc Pherson Family Honey Farms Davenport, Iowa USA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 12:00:47 -0600 Reply-To: scot.mcpherson@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot Mc Pherson Organization: The Mc Pherson Family Honey Farms Subject: Re: Passing it along /more thoughts MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Let me try to explain a little if I might. Using dee's example. In areas where there are broad pastures of grass. It is often seen only one or a few types of flora. Going up the mountain where opportunities are less, you see greater variation in the plant life. You can or may have even seen this yourself. In hawaii where the ocean meets mountains, the variaty of lifeforms is enormous. Go the the plains of the midwest and the level of variety is dismal. The leveling process is called homegenization and result is called homogenesis. Homogenized bees are essentially bees who have had no chance to become specialized, and therefore can display or express no specific characteristics of specialization within a single environment. However bees which have been breed smartly or naturally through local conditions have the chance to show variability within the confines of the locale by being specialized for and specific to a region. The variability of these local specializations is what is desired. It's the chance for the bees to show their ability to do well under a set of conditions, and breed with others that do well in the same locale. Homogenesis is the creation of a jack of all trades, but master of none. -- Scot Mc Pherson The Mc Pherson Family Honey Farms Davenport, Iowa USA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 15:40:21 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: New York State Apiary Inspection Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-74171686 At 01:00 PM 1/23/2006, you wrote: >All around it is just a conflict of interest. I can see their point. However, unless the state steps up with the dollars to hire enough full time unbiased inspectors this probably leaves the inspection program in really poor shape. Here (ohio) we have 2 full time inspectors (I'm assuming they have other duties in the ag department to keep them busy in the off months). They are clearly not enough to go around. Then each county has an inspector hired by the county (if the county commissioners decide to fund the position). This inspector is either a: 1. Commercial beekeeper looking for some extra income to keep in the black (I don't believe they pay very well). Good because they typically have a lot of experience. 2. Sideliners. Generally good beekeeping experience, perhaps more than commercial because they often can take more time at it. But what is the definition of 'any income' . Gross income? Net income? Profit (before or after paying employees/oneself)? Is anyone who sells even a jar of honey automatically ruled out? Can I inspect until the day my operation shows a net profit? (Most/all of my beekeeping income typically gets rolled back into growth and research). 3. Retired beekeepers. The perfect choice because they have a lot experience and typically lots of time. 4. The hobbyist or non-beekeeper. Often inexperienced with little more than the state training to go on. Remove #1 and #2 , #3 is hard to come by (retired from bees and still healthy enough and willing to do the job for little money), so you are left with #4. This is the situation we have in the county I'm in. Our bee inspector serves 3 counties, doesn't have bees, and didn't even know what a 5 frame nuc was the first time he inspected my bees (I wasn't home and of course he didn't contact me, rather he called another beekeeper to ask why I had all these little bee hives and how he should count them. I'd laugh if it weren't so sad.) It's nice to always receive glowing inspection reports, but when you get them even with problem hives it shows how little value the inspection program has in it's current state. Plus even though by law I'm required to be inspected twice a year because I raise queens, I was not inspected once last year. I don't yet know if this was due to lack of money or other problems. -Tim -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.14.21/235 - Release Date: 1/19/2006 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 15:11:59 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brent Farler Subject: Pherome references - 2nd attempt MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit 2nd attempt to submit: Joe Waggle wrote: >I don't know about the book, but Here's some alarm pheromone recipes you can try. Let us know how it goes. > http://www.pherobase.com/database/species/species-Apis-mellifera.php Is there anywhere I can go to understand the pherome names and functions better? Is Nasanov the QMP pherome? Trail, defense, agg and primer pherome are all new terms to me. I know that some concoctions are marketed as containing 'royal jelly' and 'queen' pheromes to stimulate brood rearing and colony productivity but they don't really back up their claims with any scientific proof. In fact one makes so many claims (honey yield, fights AFB, fights mites) as to sound like snake oil. The pherobase link references a lot of scientific papers - probably papers I won't understand but is there any way for a non-academic to access them? Thanks, Brent Farler This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain privileged, proprietary, or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the original. Any other use of the email by you is prohibited. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 15:41:52 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Subject: Re: Local Conditions In-Reply-To: <20060123143803.37792.qmail@web53414.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mike - you gloat! How about this - plus 3 degrees celsius today in my region of southern Manitoba. Ventilation for the colonies in the wintering shed is turning quite nicely. Was down to minus 24 degrees celsius during last Saturday night. Regards, Peter -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 07:45:11 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: queenbee Subject: Re: Diluting the genetics of AHB MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dave Cushman wrote > When Apis Mellifera bees were introduced to the American continent, the > vast majority were AMM types (Western European mtDNA). The selection that > has gone on during the last 100 or so years has changed that drastically, > with only 3% [Beltsville 1995] representation of AMM, most of the rest > being Eastern European mtDNA types and a percentage of African types (I do > not know these percentages). > > Surely it follows that by using the same methods, the African genes can be > also be reduced. I thought this at first also looking at the experiences here in Australia with AMM. However, from what I can gather from the bits of information I have gathered on the AHB, it is a different situation. It is not just a case of the AHB queens being mated with AM drones. I see the problem in the way the AHB takes over a hive. These swarms, made up of a AHB queen, take over the colony, killing the AM queen. Thus within a short time that hive is now AHB. Thus it now contributes AHB drones to the area. Also, I seem to remember in the early days, work by Orley Taylor? showed that AHB drones flew later in the day compared to AHB drones and the AHB queens flew at this later stage thus making it more likely that she will mate with AHB drones. I know I am a long way away fom the action as regrads AHB and hope that it remains that way but thought I would put in the observations above for comments by those with more experience. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA Coming to Apimondia in Australia in 2007 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 16:14:30 -0800 Reply-To: Tim Vaughan Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: Local Conditions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here's some we harvested about two weeks ago http://www.pbase.com/beekeeper/image/54407048 Here's one of the hives http://www.pbase.com/beekeeper/image/54407038 And one grizzled beekeeper http://www.pbase.com/beekeeper/image/54413179 Still warm, bright days and wet soil with plenty of eucalyptus and other things in bloom. Strong hives producing a shallow every three weeks. But don't get too jealous; in the summer there's often nothing at all here when many of you are pulling in your main harvest. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 00:01:45 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Zach Huang Subject: Re: Pherome references - 2nd attempt Comments: To: Brent Farler Brent, click #2 on this website: http://cyberbee.net/huangtalk/, hope it helps... Zachary Huang www.beetography.com On Mon, 23 Jan 2006 15:11:59 -0600, Brent Farler wrote: >Is there anywhere I can go to understand the pherome names and functions better? -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 10:52:28 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Diluting the genetics of AHB In-Reply-To: <003e01c62066$4b621530$3d83453d@new1> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Trevor and all > However, from what I can gather from the bits of > information I have gathered on the AHB, it is a different situation. I see it as a similar situation, but the AHB case has a much steeper gradient. If you compare AMM to Italian, there are flying time (for mating) differences, but they are not as marked as those between AHB and Italian. AMM has many traits that allow it to maintain a higher degree of purity when compared to Italian strains and so the supplanting of AMM genes in US has happened 'against the grain'. So I think the principle remains that beekeeper intervention can do the job, but that the battle will be more uphill and many beekeepers may not be prepared to put in the degree of effort required. While thinking about some of the aspects of this problem, the thought has occurred to me that there may be some linkage in the mating frequency of a race and its age as a race... i.e. Italian race = youngest and one of the African races = the oldest. Can anyone add anything to this notion ? Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 04:29:49 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: Pherome references - 2nd attempt MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello Brent & All, Brent requested information on where he can go to understand the pherome names and functions better? Is Nasanov the QMP pherome? Trail, defense, agg and primer pherome terms. I have sent a to Bee-L post with a few links that I thought would help explain the pheromones, but is has been rejected. Please send a request to my private email address and I will be happy to send them to you 'off list'. Best Wishes, Joe __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 07:48:29 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Morris Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 22 Jan 2006 to 23 Jan 2006 (#2006-20) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/23/2006 11:08:43 P.M. Central Standard Time, LISTSERV@listserv.albany.edu writes: Where am I? I'm located at the apex of a triangle about 90 miles north of Pensacola and Mobile. Montgomery, Alabama is also about 90 miles north of me. I can gloat as well -LOL The temperatures here for the most part have been very mild since the cold weather of Nov/Dec . Highs in the 50's on average with several days in the upper 60's and even a 70 or two. I have already begun feeding 2 colonies that had less than adequate stores, as well as using bee builder(with additional local trapped pollen from last year). The maples here are not quite open yet, but it wont be too much longer and they will be alive. Forecast this week puts me in the 50s with a 40s day in there somewhere, but if the suns out my little ladies usually fly at 43-45. I have not been in the hives for a full inspection at this point, but I will be doing this over the next week or so. Tim Morris Leoma, Tennessee 15 miles North of the Alabama line (due north of Florence) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 05:56:53 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: Bee Venom Allergy Vaccine Developed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/ Bee Venom Allergy Vaccine Developed Vaccine with Reduced IgE Binding and Preserved T Cell Epitopes Prevents Allergy Attacks Physician Law Weekly, 1/25/2006 A recombinant multi-allergen vaccine with reduced IgE binding and preserved T cell epitopes prevents allergy attacks. According to recent research published in the European Journal of Immunology, "Novel approaches for the prevention of allergy are required, because of the inevitably increasing prevalence of allergic diseases during the last 30 years." Fariba Karamloo at the Swiss Institute of Allergy and Asthma Research and collaborators throughout the world announced, "A recombinant chimeric protein, which comprises the whole amino acid sequences of three bee venom major allergens has been engineered and used in prevention of bee venom sensitization in mice." . . . -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 14:19:55 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: AHB & Varroa. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Is anyone - intentionally or unintentionally - keeping AHB in the US (or Mexico)? How are AHBs dealing with mites in managed colonies? Do managed AHB require any treatments for varroa? Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 06:10:52 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: Diluting the genetics of AHB MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Dave, there may be some linkage in the mating > frequency of a race and its age as a race... i.e. Italian race = > youngest and one of the African races = the oldest. > Millifera race = youngest = boreal Italian race = youngest = in-between equatorial and boreal African races = the oldest = equatorial . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska USA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 15:12:01 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Bee Venom Allergy Vaccine Developed In-Reply-To: <20060124055653.84d281a5f2f7df0ef38485a84124037d.7b806961a8.wbe@email.email.secureserver.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit C Hooper wrote: > because of the inevitably increasing prevalence of allergic > diseases during the last 30 years. Can you expand on this please and explain the inevitability ? Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 08:13:59 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Diluting the genetics of AHB In-Reply-To: <43D606EC.4030900@lineone.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dave Cushman writes: AMM has many traits that allow it to maintain a higher degree of purity when compared to Italian strains and so the supplanting of AMM genes in US has happened 'against the grain'. Reply: What are these traits you speak of for AMM for maintainance. Why do you think this has happened 'against the grain'. Also, how would you compare AMM here, to caucasian types? Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 10:05:09 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Diluting the genetics of AHB In-Reply-To: <20060124161359.2222.qmail@web51613.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Dee > What are these traits you speak of for AMM for > maintainance. There area number of reasons, each of which has a benefit in maintaining purity of race, but these features all seem to reinforce each other. The ability to mate at later times in the day and lower temperatures than other races, so that late flying drones mate with late flying queens more often. The use of queenright supersedure, where mother and daughter lay alongside each other for prolonged periods, reduces the need for queens to be mated on an urgent basis, if one dies then there is no need to panic, they can raise a new queen in a time-scale to suit themselves. Additionally, the raising and matings of these supersedure queens can occur very late in the year after all other races have ceased breeding and chucked out the drones, which along with low temperature considerations, increases the chance of matings being within the same race. These features, allow a higher degree of racial purity to be maintained, when compared with Italian bees, without some of the risks of inbreeding, because the AMM mating frequency is so much higher than the Italians. > the supplanting of AMM genes in US has happened 'against the > grain'. As it follows that in a free running system, the racial purity of AMM is likely to be greater than Italian, the changes brought about by beekeepers have happened, in spite of this and so I used the term 'against the grain'. > Also, how would you compare AMM here, to > caucasian types? I can't make any sensible comparisons, as I have no direct experience of Caucasian bees, and my knowledge of them is thus limited, however Caucasians will forage at low temperatures in a similar way to AMM and in less favourable weather conditions than Italian bees, but I don't think they have the cool weather mating strategies of AMM. They readily hybridise with Carnica and Ligustica, but if hybridised with AMM they are 'bad tempered' and winter so poorly that they die out within a few years in UK conditions. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 05:57:16 -0500 Reply-To: Buckner Lewis Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Buckner Lewis Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 22 Jan 2006 to 23 Jan 2006 (#2006-20) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Maples have been open here going on two weeks, we are just 24 miles South of the Georgia line and 45 miles west of Jacksonville, Florida. Temps in high 70's all last week. Brood is building. B. Lewis Union Co., Florida -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 06:11:00 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: mark berninghausen Subject: Re: New York State Apiary Inspection In-Reply-To: <20060121172646.78184.qmail@web34312.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit There are umpteen different hypotheticals that could be imagined. What about actual real life situations? There are numerous "BAD" occurances that have happened. Compared with the number of possible occurances, these bad occurances are, or have been, few. This is not to say that those individual occurances weren't uncomfortable, inconvenient and perhaps devistating, this is to say that they are not normal. And steps have been taken to address those specific occurances. And steps have been taken to keep those bad encounters from happening in the future. The system isn't perfect. It needs working on and constant monitoring. Help improve and secure this program that has so much potential good service to give to the Beekeepers and the Citizens of New York State. Before anyone jumps up and says, "He's just trying to save his job." WRONG. I have no desire to return to work for Ag & Mkts. I do have a desire to see the Apiary Inspection Program continue and thrive. I have many questions and concerns abouit how that will happen. I may not be able to directly petition the Dept. of Ag&Mkts, for 2 years, since I have been an employee of the Department. I am concerned about what kind of Inspector we would have, if that inspector wasn't interested in Honeybees enough to have some of there own. How could they be knowledgeable enough to do the job to the degree necassary? This may just be a lack of perspective on my part. Mark Berninghausen "J. Waggle" wrote: (this is hypothetically now) an inspector bringing a competitor into your apiary when your not home to snoop in your hives, --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? With a free 1 GB, there's more in store with Yahoo! Mail. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 11:11:48 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: New York State Apiary Inspection MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Mark is asking how we could possibly have an apiary inspection program without commercial beekeepers being among those employed as inspectors, and is asking that we consider asking Ag. & Markets to continue a program. I have some thoughts, but would first like to hear more about which beekeeper= s might be deemed to *not* have a conflict of interest that would prevent the= m from being an inspector. (Mark indicated elsewhere that hobbyist beekeeper= s might be acceptable.) Is there a cut-off such as excluding those who rely on beekeeping or honey sales for their *primary* source of income? Alternatively, can those with less than ($5,000 ?) of gross income from beekeeping or honey sales be an inspector? My thoughts are not yet fully developed, but I would be interested in a program with a primary focus on 'helping' beekeepers do a better job as beekeepers. I agree with Mark's implication that most beekeepers welcome this part of an inspectors role. I have absolutely no interest in an inspection program with AFB as the *primary* focus, but AFB should be one of several areas of inspector interest. -- Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 08:09:04 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Diluting the genetics of AHB In-Reply-To: <43D74D55.6050301@lineone.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Dave: What you write here I associate with our caucasian type honeybees. But we had to regress our sizing to put our type bees kept on par, to be able to do so. But I do agree with you on AMM and caucasian side by side, as it would be crossing climatic temperature localities and this IMPOV could indeed result in some aggressiveness though both dark in coloration, where straight transitioning wouldn't. In your area I can see the caucasian being replaced naturally by the AMM as longitude and naturally occurring range would dictate. Then in our area I see caucasian type outplacing the AMM for same reasons. But then that would be expected with acclimitization in both places. Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 13:49:16 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Rossander Subject: Re: New York State Apiary Inspection In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I think that Mark and Lloyd are indirectly asking what the desired characteristics of an inspector are or should be. As a hobbyist beekeeper, I do not care one whit about "conflicts of interest". I don't think of myself as being in competition with anyone (at least, not for anything more serious than bragging rights). I keep bees because I enjoy it. If the initial statistics from the other discussion thread about club memberships hold true, I suspect that the large majority of beekeepers are in my position. The characteristics I want in an inspector are: 1. Experienced and technically competent enough to have earned the right to an opinion. In my admittedly limited experience, competence is not unique to commercial beekeepers, sideliners, hobbyists or academics. Neither is incompetence. There are good and bad beekeepers in all those categories. 1a. Mere survival of one's colonies is not necessarily a good indicator of expertise. My bees may be surviving but that's no guarantee that my pet practices and beliefs about _why_ they survive are correct. The truth is that some survive despite their practices, not because of them. 2. Willing and able to teach. An inspector has to do more than just find bad stuff. A good inspector has to help me learn how to deal with it. 2a. This one is a bit more controversial but important to me. Stick to the mainstream when giving advice. I don't really care what you do in your own hives. In your role as inspector, give me advice that is reputable and time-tested. Base your advice on peer-reviewed research and established practices. Be aware of emerging thoughts and techniques and be able to discuss their known advantages and disadvantages with me but please keep that part of the discussion very fact-based. Don't use your role as inspector to advocate for fringe positions. 3. Available to do the job. All the expertise in the world is useless to me if you can't get to my beeyard. The bottom line is that I want an inspector I can learn from - someone whose advice is worth listening to. Their "absence of conflict of interest" doesn't make my list. Mike Rossander --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? With a free 1 GB, there's more in store with Yahoo! Mail. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 18:40:51 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: New York State Apiary Inspection In-Reply-To: <20060125214916.23410.qmail@web51503.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Mike Rossander wrote:........... The bottom line is that I want an inspector I can learn from - someone whose advice is worth listening to. Their "absence of conflict of interest" doesn't make my list. Well said Mike. Wish I had said that. Mike --------------------------------- Bring words and photos together (easily) with PhotoMail - it's free and works with Yahoo! Mail. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 09:54:08 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: New York State Apiary Inspection In-Reply-To: <20060126024051.60912.qmail@web53415.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All I have been watching this thread, as I believe that a well run apiary inspection service is a good thing in any country. Mike Rossander made some very good points from the perspective of someone being inspected. Many of the points from other contributors on 'conflict of interest' are also valid, but in my estimation they are only valid if the inspectors are not answerable to a 'boss'. Part of a boss man's job is monitoring and policing of just such conflicts of interest, and then doing something about them if they arise. You can't afford to eliminate many of your most knowledgeable inspectors, just because they keep bees themselves. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 08:09:35 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: workshop for willing bee killers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Killer bees are on the way; UF/IFAS hosting workshop for willing bee killers By Audrey Blackwell, Okeechobee News In preparation for the onslaught of Africanized Honey Bees to the area, formerly dubbed "killer bees," the University of Florida/IFAS Extension is hosting a workshop Friday, Jan. 25, from 9 a.m. until noon at the St. Lucie County Extension office’s Hurricane House. The workshop is for pest control professionals, law enforcement officers and emergency first responders. Dan Culbert, county extension agent in Okeechobee, said they are looking for some local people who would be willing to be first responders in case the very aggressive Africanized Honey Bees are on someone’s property and the nest needs to be destroyed. "Our goal is to get a few knowledgeable people to be first responders for these bees," he said. Mr. Hayes said that the Africanized bees probably will not attack someone who is just standing on their patio, but they become aggressive and defensive when defending their home. He said they would attack those who are camping or hiking in the woods, and they may build their nests in a barbeque grill, mailbox, upside down empty flower pot or other outside container. The Africanized Honey Bee is about the same size as the gentle European bee — only about 1 to 2 percent smaller, said Mr. Hayes. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 08:17:38 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: more on feral bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In the areas where AHBs become established, they ARE the "feral" bees: FERAL AFRICANIZED HONEY BEES (APIS MELLIFERA) IN SONORAN DESERT HABITATS OF SOUTHWESTERN ARIZONA by MICHAEL J. RABE, et al We collected bees at 54 sites in a 5,350-km2 study area in the Sonoran Desert of southwestern Arizona. Among collected bees, 86.9% possessed African mtDNA. Because *all* sampled water locations had Africanized honeybees, the data supported the prediction that Africanized colonies would predominate in areas with mean high temperatures in the coldest months > 19 degrees C. from THE SOUTHWESTERN NATURALIST 50(3):307–311 SEPTEMBER 2005 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 07:50:14 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: more on feral bees In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Peter writes: Sorry, still not buying that, and this is probably do to prior analysis saying the bees here are caucasian like and similar to bees in S. Calif which are caucasian like in type and different from bees in most parts of the USA. Further, even the new wing testing being put together seems to leave out mentioning caucasian type bees. If I am wrong, show me where on paper caucasian type honeybees can be brokenout and Identified by both mtDNA and looking at bees wings by race/strain in these today methods, and I mean by all color families of the race caucasian. Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 14:15:21 -0500 Reply-To: info@miteaway.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "NOD Apiary Products Ltd." Subject: Re: New York State Apiary Inspection In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Here in Ontario, our inspection program is SO important. Every hive is inspected yearly and commercial beekeepers are usually given notice that the inspector will be visiting. Is it not better to have an inspection program for: 1. Disease identification, management and irradication. Identification of disease will prevent spread of disease. So what if you have to quarantine a bee yard because of AFB? Isn't that better for the overall health of your local beekeeping industry and your own outfit, than hiding it, or not being aware of the problem at all?? 2. Knowledge. You can contact the inspector for information and assistance. Inspectors are a wealth of information and can help not only beginners but experienced beekeepers. (Unless those experienced beekeepers think they know-it-all!). 3. Education. Our inspectors visit local association meetings and workshops. Invaluable! I could go on and on, but overall to have a healthy beekeeping industry there must be an overseeing body that polices, educates, and works with the provincial/state treatment recommendations as established by the State/Provincial Apiarist. If you have a good outfit, you should be proud to show it off. And if you have disease identified, get over the embarrassment and correct the problem. It's better for everyone in the long run. Liz Corbett Business Manager (and beekeeper) NOD Apiary Products Ltd. Frankford, Ontario, Canada --- Lloyd Spear wrote: > Mark is asking how we could possibly have an apiary > inspection program > without commercial beekeepers being among those > employed as inspectors, and > is asking that we consider asking Ag. & Markets to > continue a program. I > have some thoughts, but would first like to hear > more about which beekeepers > might be deemed to *not* have a conflict of interest > that would prevent them > from being an inspector. (Mark indicated elsewhere > that hobbyist beekeepers > might be acceptable.) Is there a cut-off such as > excluding those who rely > on beekeeping or honey sales for their *primary* > source of income? > Alternatively, can those with less than ($5,000 ?) > of gross income from > beekeeping or honey sales be an inspector? > > My thoughts are not yet fully developed, but I would > be interested in a > program with a primary focus on 'helping' beekeepers > do a better job as > beekeepers. I agree with Mark's implication that > most beekeepers welcome > this part of an inspectors role. I have absolutely > no interest in an > inspection program with AFB as the *primary* focus, > but AFB should be one > of several areas of inspector interest. > > > > -- > Lloyd Spear > Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. > Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey > sections, > Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance > custom labels. > Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com > > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ > and other info --- > __________________________________________________________ Find your next car at http://autos.yahoo.ca -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 10:33:53 -0500 Reply-To: beebrain@silver.dissimulo.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: BeeBrain Subject: Re: New York State Apiary Inspection MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Mark Berninghausen asserts that "Compared with the number of possible occurances, these bad occurances are, or have been, few." I must respectfully disagree. The bad occurrences so wildly outnumber the good ones that it is literally impossible to count them. Mark and others here confine their accounting of bad outcomes to beekeepers, while studiously ignoring those most harmed by these programs: the people who are forced to pay for them. When the state of New York (or any other state) funds a bee inspection program, it takes money by force from millions of people. The overwhelming majority of these people have better uses for their money. They would not willingly give their money to bee inspectors. If one argues that bee inspection benefits everyone, then why are these programs not funded by free market means? Walmart or McDonalds never force anyone to buy their products. Money is given to all private-sector businesses willingly, because the person making the purchase believes they will be better off with the product or service and without the money. If they don't believe that, they keep their money and save it or spend it elsewhere. The essence of trade is that both parties do so willingly, because both benefit from the trade. There are many ways that beekeepers and others with an interest in healthy bees could tackle the problem without resorting to the violence and theft inherent in government programs. Dues paid to a voluntary association might confer the priveldge of adding certain claims or trademarks to the honey labels. If inspections really do improve the productivity and health of the bees, then surely it is worth the most to the beekeeper. One thing that would never happen with a free-market bee inspection service is having unknown, uninvited agents arriving unannounced, trespassing on private property, and sticking filthy tools unwashed after countless inspections of unrelated hives with unknown pathogens into what had been a healthy colony. This scenario is repeated over and over again in even the best-run government program, but it would never be tolerated in a private business. The owners of such a "service" would be properly charged with trespass and required to compensate bee owners for all damages. If New York beekeepers desire an inspection service, by all means create one and run it by whatever rules you please. But please don't force those of us who disagree with your assessment of the benefits to fund your business with money stolen from us at gunpoint. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 17:15:48 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: New York State Apiary Inspection In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit BeeBrain wrote: A diatribe not worthy of response. Interesting that the email address is beebrain@silver.dissimulo.com where dissimulo is an ISP masker to keep the sender from being found out. http://www.cotse.net/home.html I would hope the list not allow anonymous posters. We have enough trouble with the people we know. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 10:12:38 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: queenbee Subject: Re: New York State Apiary Inspection MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > You can't afford to eliminate many of your most knowledgeable > inspectors, just because they keep bees themselves. Good point Dave. How can you have a bee inspector that does not know much about bees. If they don't keep bees themselves, how do they learn the finer points about beekeeping. These finer points are what is needed by an inspector. After all, you don't want a book inspector i.e. one that has learn beekeeping from a book with no "real" practical experience. It reminds me of when I was in a previous job and saw how sawmills started to be run by accountants and not sawmillers. All sorts of stupid decisions. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA Coming to Apimondia in Australia in 2007 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 19:16:45 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lionel Subject: Re: New York State Apiary Inspection MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I wholly agree with Bill, as I hope the moderators will screen people like "beebrain" in the future. Thanks modreators. Lionel -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 19:43:43 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: New York State Apiary Inspection In-Reply-To: <005f01c622d6$6efa21f0$9d9b453d@new1> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Thoughts on a bee inspector. These thoughts are open to discussion and are subject to change for good and valid reasons. The inspector is going to have to be knowledgeable, up to date, work excessive hours when he/she is out inspecting, have a portable autoclave, a number of sets of inspection equipment, be provided with a dependable vehicle. A. Good bee inspectors should have a minimum of required training before going on the road. This should include formal training and hands-on experience. How much? That’s open to discussion and input from those old hands in inspection and their trainers/teachers. B. In the off season for inspections, part of their time should be spent in updating their knowledge base. There should be a central clearing house for valid updated material and this material should be provided by e-mail to the inspectors and also be made available to any who would take the trouble to log on and read. C. During the spring/summer/fall seasons, the inspector would be expected to spend extra hours on the work week. My initial feeling would be that he/she start one (1) hour after sunup and continue with breaks and lunch and supper breaks until one-quarter (1/4) hour before sunset for four days a week. I’m thinking Wednesday through Saturday. For those states with a high number of commercial operations. Those might be inspected on Wednesdays and Thursdays, and the sideliners and hobbyist be scheduled for inspection on Fridays and Saturdays. Of course, weather would play a part in this. I wouldn’t have wanted my hives inspected while Hurricane Ivan was blowing through. I think the inspections should be scheduled with the owners of the hives. D & E The inspector should have four or five sets of tools to use during inspection. As these are used, after each yard inspected each set should be set aside to be autoclaved before use again. With five sets of tools, after the third set is used they could be prepared and placed in the autoclave for sterilization while inspecting succeeding sites. One-half (1/2) or one (1) hour of sterilization under pressure should suffice to sterilize tools and equipment used. F The vehicle used should be one designed for this specific use, not just some pickup truck handed to the inspector. Not only should the truck be set up for bee inspection use, it should provide the maximum comfort possible for the inspector during the trips to the inspection sites. With the large amount of time spent on the road the inspector is going to be subject to a lot more of the hazards of road travel than most other jobs. Lets make him/her as comfortable and at ease during these trips as possible. G The inspector should have access to communication and also be accessible while inroute. This would include voice operated phone communication and GPS navigation. Time off. With the long hours spent Wednesday through Saturday, I think the inspector should have Sunday through Tuesday off each week. Also time should be provided for compensation during the winter months for the excess time spent on the job during the other months. During this time ongoing training/education should take place. These are my off-the-cuff thoughts. They are open to modification, exclusion, and supplementation. Let’s give these people some good support for the job they do. I do believe that with proper supervision they too ought to be able to run a number of hives; maybe not the numbers that commercial beekeepers do, but certainly more than two or three hives. Mike Located in lower Alabama and wishing I saw more of my regional inspector. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? With a free 1 GB, there's more in store with Yahoo! Mail. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 22:12:43 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Subject: Irradiated Pollen for Patties In-Reply-To: <43D89C40.2030406@lineone.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi to all, Looking into making spring supply of pollen patties: it seems to me that a critical factor in pricing/per patty is based on the price of Irradiated pollen. Running at a patty containing 15% pollen, remainder consisting of Soy flour/ Yeast and Carbohydrate of some form. Any prices for Pollen? - any info esp. that which may be supplied to Manitoba. Total patty numbers - between 1500 and 3000. Any thoughts on Vitamin C addition to the mix? Regards, Peter. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 07:39:08 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: George Fergusson Subject: Re: New York State Apiary Inspection In-Reply-To: <43D94A14.8060901@suscom-maine.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 05:15 PM 1/26/06 -0500, you wrote: >BeeBrain wrote: > >A diatribe not worthy of response. That may be :) >Interesting that the email address is > >beebrain@silver.dissimulo.com > >where dissimulo is an ISP masker to keep the sender from being found out. I would hope that if you or anyone else were to contact my ISP that they would not divulge ANY personal information about me, period. If they did, I would have them in court so fast it would make their heads spin. Having worked in the security end of the ISP business for many year and run my own internet-connected servers, I am all too well aware of the issues of privacy and security and the ways in which one's privacy and information security can be violated. Give me access to raw packets on a wire and you'd be amazed at what I could find out. Companies such as Cotse.net are simply providing a more secure network environment for their customers than that which is provided by the typical ISP. Secure and/or filtered ports, tunneled protocols, secure mail servers and encrypted email are nothing new. Older insecure protocols like telnet and ftp are becoming a thing of the past. If I wanted to disguise my identity, which I don't, I would not register a domain name (go to http://www.whois.net/ and lookup sweettimeapiary.com and you'll get my name, mailing address, and phone number) and I would utilize only encrypted protocols and anonymous remailers. >I would hope the list not allow anonymous posters. We have enough >trouble with the people we know. Signing up on this list requires only a valid email address. This does not imply nor require a real identity. I would hope that anyone posting to this list would be willing to divulge at least their name. George- --------------------------------------- George & Nancy Fergusson Sweet Time Apiary 326 Jefferson Road Whitefield Maine 04353 207-549-5991 http://www.sweettimeapiary.com/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 09:10:49 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Clovermead Subject: improving plastic foundation? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Has anyone in a "poor honey flow" area experimented with adding additional wax to sheets of plastic foundation to see if the bees would take to them better, like the way they do with wax foundation. I was thinking about spraying or dipping sheets of plastic foundation in wax to give them a much thicker coating to give the bees a bit more wax material to start drawing out cells with. I understand in good honey flow areas it is never an issue getting the bees to draw out the plastic foundation quickly, but my bees struggle. Chris Aylmer, ON -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 09:42:05 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: improving plastic foundation? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline "Has anyone in a "poor honey flow" area experimented with adding additional wax " Why not make it easy and buy the stuff with the 'proper' amount of wax already on. If you are having difficulty with Pierco (which I suspect), tr= y either Permadent ((605) 345-3211) or Dadant's Plasticell. Permadent is available directly from them only in cartons of 100 for deeps or 150 for medium. I've used both and they are excellent. Lloyd -- Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 10:14:45 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Conflict of interest In-Reply-To: <43D94A14.8060901@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I lived under fairly draconian conflict of interest rules (in the US Navy and responsible for multimillion dollar contracts). The issue with the inspectors is not with hobby beekeepers but commercial beekeepers. There is no way that any commercial operation would want their competitors inspecting them. The possibilities of improper, and worse illegal, actions on the part of the inspector have to be guarded against. Otherwise, the inspector could have unfair advantage over their competitors. The second problem is the inspectors are paid by the State and therefore are representatives of the State, with the power of government behind them. Again, you would want controls to keep abuse of power in check. Otherwise, the inspector could set up rules that only favor the inspector's operation. Conflict of Interest rules and laws need to have a balance between unlawful acts and the ability to get the best, experienced people in the job. For beekeepers who are inspectors, there should be a line that approximately keeps their beekeeping operations as non-competitive compared to commercial operations in the State. Crossing that line puts them at odds with those they are inspecting. It is a difficult line to draw, but you could use all commercial operations in the State to determine the line. As far as other things, like meals, all the inspector need do is document them and let their bosses know what they are doing (close friend, great ribs, whatever). That is usually sufficient, but it is best to brown bag it. Then there are no issues. You could also have a different cut-off-line for assistants, since they would report to and be under the Inspector's supervision. All of this is well within the ability of a State Bee Association to influence politically. We got an assistant position for the Inspector in Maine by going to the Legislature. Even beekeeper's vote. Plus, you can tell the legislator you have 50,000 employees in each of your many plants, and they can get angry when treated poorly. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 10:58:34 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: New York State Apiary Inspection In-Reply-To: <20060127034343.28422.qmail@web53404.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-2483525C At 10:43 PM 1/26/2006, you wrote: >The inspector is going to have to be knowledgeable, up to date, work excessive hours when he/she is out inspecting, have a portable autoclave, a number of sets of inspection equipment, be provided with a dependable vehicle...... A great list of ideal, I'd love to see such an inspection program funded. However, that's where the problem is. Who is going to fund such a program? Taxpayers? The beekeepers being inspected? I'm sure you would hear a huge outcry from beekeepers if anyone proposed the $20+ per hive this type of inspection program would cost. I'll speak for Ohio since that is what I'm familiar with, though I'm sure many states are in similar situations (some better, some worse): Ohio funds 2 state apiary inspectors, hardly enough to begin inspecting the 26,000+ hives in the state even to a minimum standard. This is down from 3 just a few years ago when the budget was cut. Their duties involve administrating 44 counties each and I'm sure many other duties within the department of agriculture. Each county hires, sets wage rates for and pays for their county inspector. With more recent budget cuts at the local level these positions have had pay cuts and often hives are inspected until the money runs out leaving many hives uninspected. None I've talked to are paid well or are provided a vehicle or any of the more expensive supplies. And they certainly are not paid any benefits or paid for keeping up to date during the winter, etc. In recent years it's been difficult to find someone even willing to do the job in many cases. Plus with budget cuts, some counties have decided not to even fill the position to save money. (7 counties last year had no inspector at all). So unless some of the 3000 beekeepers in the state have some serious clout at the state and local level, I really don't see the funding being available to improve much. The $5 per apiary we pay now for registration I'm sure barely pays the administration feeds of sending out and recording the registrations. To fund the program with the ideal 6-8 full time inspectors I'd expect it to cost 20-30 per hive and I don't think anyone is willing to pay that. As it stands now I think it's going to take many of us talking to our state and local officials just to keep the imperfect program we do have. -Tim -- Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.14.21/235 - Release Date: 1/19/2006 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 11:05:06 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: Irradiated Pollen for Patties In-Reply-To: <43D99DBB.3080709@mts.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-2483525C At 11:12 PM 1/26/2006, you wrote: >Any prices for Pollen? - any info esp. that which may be supplied to Manitoba. Have you checked out Global Patties? Looks like they are fairly new in the market but do offer various mixes (or your own custom mix) including some with real pollen. I would be curious as to what the source of their pollen is. http://www.globalpatties.com/ -Tim -- Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.14.21/235 - Release Date: 1/19/2006 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 11:15:12 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: improving plastic foundation? In-Reply-To: <200601271410.k0REAsj6008733@smtp.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-2483525C At 09:10 AM 1/27/2006, you wrote: >Has anyone in a "poor honey flow" area experimented with adding additional >wax to sheets of plastic foundation Yes. In my experience it does help significantly. With more wax on the plastic they use it to start drawing the sides more quickly. I first noticed this in my observation hive where one are of the plastic had a large spot of much thicker than normal wax. The bees drew it out first and even before they had any real need for extra room. I subsequently tried the same in a standard by recoating half the frames in a super. As Lloyd points out, you can either buy plastic foundation with the proper amount, or you can add your own wax if you already have foundation. It as simple as painting on more wax with one of those cheap foam brushes. Don't be concerned if the wax fills the bottom of the formed cells in spots, the bees will remove it for use in the cell walls. -Tim -- Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.14.21/235 - Release Date: 1/19/2006 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 11:02:30 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Conflict of interest In-Reply-To: <43DA38E5.8030007@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bill Truesdell wrote:Otherwise, the inspector could set up rules that only favor the inspector's operation. Even beekeeper's vote. Plus, you can tell the legislator you have 50,000 employees in each of your many plants, and they can get angry when treated poorly. Here in Alabama our two (2) inspectors are under the supervision of the director of the inspection program. There is no way that they can set up rules of operation. That has to go through the director's domain. The director is also part of the state agriculture section. Even he can't make rule changes without explaining the current rule, the proposed revision to the rule or new rule, and substatiate the reasons for the rule change. I 'LIKE' the idea of telling my legislator that I have anywhere from 20K to 60K employees in each of my production plants. You can always tell the legislator that they can get as mad as a nest of hornets when banged on with a stick. :) Mike in southern Alabama __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 12:31:18 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kathy Cox Subject: Beekeeping Associations Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Mike, I'm president of the Sonoma County Beekeeper's Association in Northern California....Wine Country. We have about 150 members, 40 to 70 show up at meetings. I have no idea about the number of hives. I have 60. Our editor has around 10, our treasurer about 60, our secretary has 3 and our VP has 50. One of our members has at least 600 and another has 1800. About 10 are professional (making some sort of income from bees.) -- Kathy Cox Bloomfield Bees & Bouquets Sebastopol 707-823-2804 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 15:09:26 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Eric Brown Subject: Re: New York State Apiary Inspection My feelings on an inspection service would begin with a lot of the same thoughts that Tim just shared. We can talk about a lot of nice things to do with an inspection service, but it all costs money. I just called one of our state inspectors earlier today for some over-the- phone help, and he was very generous with his help as always. But ask me what I'd be willing to pay for that help and I'd probably think of a friend I could call on instead. I would certainly resent being forced to pay $5/hive each year, let alone $20 or more. I'm thinking it only takes a matter of a few extra seconds for me to inspect my hives in the process of hive management procedures I'm doing anyway. Why should I pay someone else to make a separate procedure of it, disturb my bees an extra time, introduce added risks to my bees (like taking fewer precautions against rolling a queen than I would or parking a vehicle with AFB contaminated stuff in my beeyard, etc.), and drive an hour or two each way in a vehicle that I'm paying for, too? If we're considering the cost, it just doesn't make any sense from my perspective. As far as the inspection work itself goes, the only benefit I can see is in dealing with the problems of less capable or responsible beekeepers around me. But I don't see that happening. First of all, the worst offenders either know what they're doing and how to hide it or they're not getting inspected at all. Or the inspector taught them the offending practice in the first place. Or the inspector isn't dealing with the problem, in part because the inspector wants to keep selling him nucs in the spring. Or because the inspector is too busy keeping his own bees on the side. Or because there's too much tension between being both helper and enforcer. I personally just don't see any way to make an inspection service work anywhere near the way I would want it to. In the meantime, I can't tell that I'm paying for it, so I don't much worry about it. And I like the inspectors I know and wish them the best. But I also suspect that the inspection service's outspoken advocates aren't the ones paying the cost. Eric -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 15:50:51 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: George Fergusson Subject: Re: Conflict of interest In-Reply-To: <20060127190230.61437.qmail@web53401.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 11:02 AM 1/27/06 -0800, you wrote: >I 'LIKE' the idea of telling my legislator that I have anywhere from 20K to 60K employees in each of my production plants. To be honest, they are only seasonal employees. George- -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 16:13:32 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ray Michaud Subject: Re: Beekeeping Associations MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Mike I am a member of Mass Beekeepers. Here is a web site that may help you out in your search for Bee Associations in the USA . go to WWW. BeeSource.com to the left click on bees & supplies, go down to assoc. This should show all the states in the country. Good luck Ray Michaud Lakeview Apiaries Westport ma. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 17:50:47 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chuck Norton Subject: Cobey, Rinderer, Sammataro, Murrell, Wright, Bush & Others to Speak at Asheville Bee School To the List, In Asheville, North Carolina: The Buncombe County Beekeepers Association in association with the Buncombe County North Carolina State University Extension Service office and the SILSA program at Asheville High School, is sponsoring an 8 week tuition free Bee School with two tiers of instruction, a beginner course and an advanced course. Remaining Instructors for the advanced course are Sue Cobey, January 30th; followed by commercial beekeeper Bob Binnie, 2003 Georgia Beekeeper of the year, on February 6th; Dr. Tom Rinderer - lead researcher with the USDA-ARS Russian breeding program February 13th; Dr. Diana Sammataro of the USDA-ARS Tucson Bee Lab on February 20th; Dennis Murrell of Casper, WY on February 27; and on March 6th former NASA engineer and noted author Walt Wright of Elkton, Tennessee will return from his January 22nd appearance to join small cell beekeeper Michael Bush from Greenwood, Nebraska. All events begin at 7:00 pm till 9:00 pm at Asheville High School, 419 McDowell Street, Asheville, NC 28803. There is plenty of seating in the high school auditorium, for more information and pre-registration, visit http://www.wncbees.org If you can nmake it please pre-register and come to Asheville, NC Thanks, Chuck Norton -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 15:11:49 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Grant Gillard Subject: Re: improving plastic foundation? In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.0.20060127110825.064eebf0@mail.watchtv.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I'm a big fan of plastic foundation. I prefer the entire frame to be plastic, not just a plastic sheet to fit into a wood frame. My bees greatly prefer the permadent. I've tried the others and my bees like that stuff from South Dakota! My UPS man wonders why those cases are so heavy! I've not had any problem with the bees getting permadent drawn out, especially if I can fit the frames between a couple of brood frames. But this is not a good answer if you're trying to get a whole super of fresh plastic foundation drawn. I've heard of people spraying the plastic foundation with sugar syrup. But everytime I did it the syrup just beaded up and rolled off the foundation. I never did question how they got the syrup to stick. I've resurrected a great deal of pierco from my farm in Minnesota. Up there, I had no problems with unwaxed pierco. Now in Missouri, I'm looking to scrap those old frames and rewax them. Thanks all for your tips. Grant Jackson, MO --------------------------------- Yahoo! Autos. Looking for a sweet ride? Get pricing, reviews, & more on new and used cars. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 22:57:00 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Beekeeping Associations MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kathy, Can you shed any light on the reason for the new small hive beetle regulations at the border. Was the problem discussed at your last meeting. I posted on both lists ( a month ago as I have been gone for a month living out of a suitcase) about the new "Q" status for SHB. Everybody was quick to say the rules were not going to be enforced! Brokers assured no problems at the border! Boy were those people misinformed. The new rule is being enforced and many loads have been turned around for SHB. The last load I tried to help get released had two dead SHB found. The load was returned to Georgia. The load was certified fire ant & SHB free under the new program before shipment. I watched the process and took pictures. All the hives were placed on new pallets. I saw no Fire ants or SHB. Those two dead SHB cost the owner about 20,000 U.S., loss of pollination fees and loss of pollination to the almond grower. A load was turned from Louisiana for a single caterpillar. Also a single bag worm on a load from New York. After much hassle some loads (with SHB finds)are being allowed to enter some counties ( although even the person in charge can not tell us which counties)but are put in quarantine for 30 days ( and treated at owners expenses) which means they can not be used for almond pollination in most cases. Requests by apiary inspection departments around the U.S. have had trouble getting clarification on the new rules. After all the border has been wide open to SHB since 1998. I have been told privately Kathy that California queen breeders are pushing the new rules. Can you confirm? Now to almond pollination prices. What the heck is going on? Any truth to the story that almond growers are refusing to pay higher prices than $80-90 and beekeepers are having trouble placing hives? Two loads from Missouri have been cancelled by growers. 3800 SHB infested hives are heading into California from the Midwest next week. Should be interesting. I don't know if they are booked or not. A beekeeper/broker in California said he needed to place around 15.000 hives yet on the phone. A friend said ads are being run in "The Fresno Bee" and other papers advertising thousands of hives for almond pollination asking fees of 80-90. Is there or is there not enough hives ? Thanks in advance! Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 00:45:48 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: Beekeeping Associations In-Reply-To: <46.794f5316.310be6fc@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 04:13 PM 1/27/2006, you wrote: > Here is a web site that may help you out in your search for Bee >Associations in the USA . go to WWW. BeeSource.com Not a bad place to start, though it is a bit out of date. I think changes are only made when someone submits them to the webmaster. I've recently put together hopefully a more up to date list as I was able to find any updated information. Some states have a great central beekeeping association that lists all the associations in the state, others do not. It's posted at http://www.honeyrunapiaries.com/bee_links-USA-13.phtml -Tim -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 19:01:55 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Blundering Along in Bee Breeding In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Peter posted from Stone: We know that color and temper are separately inheritable, also size and color, and a little is known concerning a few other characters, but very little about any. Reply: Thank you Peter for pulling this up, reminds me of traits reversing them selves while transitioning towards or away from temperate and tropical zones, like positive to recessive, and recessive to positive, 'till they meet in the middle going thru various climatic zones going to equator or either pole. You make me think of another pleasanter time....thank you so much again. Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 19:03:03 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Anonymous Posters (was) New York State Apiary Inspection MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Bill, > I would hope the list not allow anonymous posters. > I whole heartedly agree, A persons words should be backed up by their = name. I know there are those who disagree with me but at least they know = who they disagree with. Anonymous posters have the opportunity to say or = write things they may not write or say if they were up front with their = persona. . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska USA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 06:22:35 -0800 Reply-To: paradisehoneyfarms@earthlink.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "paradisehoneyfarms@earthlink.net" Subject: Re: Beekeeping Associations MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Bob, This is want I know on Almonds. We had our contracts cancelled the first of this week. We been with them for 3 years. Why? they can get out of state hives for 80.00. Most hives this year are being inspected for strength by the growers and brokers. What I hear is most at not up to strength. We did get ours placed. As a Calif beekeeper in the central valley, I not happy with the out of state beekeepers, who uncut us and walked into my area to do so. This was a big issue at our last week meeting, and I'm sure will be some big changes next year. I'm not talking about the ones who have been doing this for years. Our club has about 150 members, some out of staters, most are commercial, 3 I know have between them 80,000 plus hives. The average is about 2500 hives, so this is a big concern for us. Sorry if I made you all mad at me. Susan -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 07:38:44 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: California Almond Situation Comments: To: paradisehoneyfarms@earthlink.net In-Reply-To: <410-220061628142235390@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I'm confused. Last year all we heard about here in Alabama was the severe shortage of colonies for almond pollination. The rumor went around that there were even offers of up to $150 per hive at the start of the blooming period. I have also heard that it's going to be very difficult, if not impossible, to carry migration colonies into California from out of state because of a prohibition of hives with evidence of hive beetle presence. What is happening out there in California? Have the numbers of colonies within state increased so dramatically from last year that the almond growers won't need out of state pollination services? Have the in-state commercial beekeepers managed to get restrictions passed on the movement of migratory hives into California. Seems if large numbers of out of state migratory beekeepers aren't allowed to come in that pollination prices would sky-rocket. After $150 a hive last year, $60 to $80 a hive this year doesn't seem reasonable unless ya'! ll really grew the bees out there in California this past year. Enlighten me. Mike Located in lower Alabama --------------------------------- What are the most popular cars? Find out at Yahoo! Autos -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 11:34:46 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Beekeeping Associations Comments: To: paradisehoneyfarms@EARTHLINK.NET MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kathy, Thanks for the reply! > We had our contracts cancelled the first of this week. We been with them for 3 years. We had two semi loads cancelled from Missouri last week. What gives? >Why? they can get out of state hives for 80.00. Tell your beekeepers NOT to believe all the ads in the "Fresno Bee" and others. Most have been placed by almond growers to make you think like you do. Seems has worked up until now. Spread the word. I have got people calling those ads. Call for yourself. >Most hives this year are being inspected for strength by the growers and brokers. What I hear is most at not up to strength. Were you watching the actual inspection or simply give the yard location to the broker/grower rep like the others I talked to did? Hmmm. >We did get ours placed. If you don't mind me asking how big of a cut did you take? I am a champion poker and chess player. Maybe I need to sit down with you California beekeepers and help you with your game. This is not a friendly Saturday night pitch game for fun. You are playing for high stakes money. What changed the game? Going from last years $65 fee most got to this years asking price of 120/150 per hive. >As a Calif beekeeper in the central valley, I not happy with the out of state beekeepers, who uncut us and walked into my area to do so. This was a big issue at our last week meeting, and I'm sure will be some big changes next year. I'm not talking about the ones who have been doing this for years. Large migratory beekeepers are used to playing high stakes poker. Do you really think a large beekeeper would truck hives from New York or Florida , pay broker fees & trucking, unloading and placement fees for $80 a hive? The lure of 150 a hive brought the bees and the reality is the growers are offering 80-90 take it or leave it and willing to gamble on not enough bees to prove a point. The queen breeders pushing for SHB zero tolerance at the border is the one thing the almond growers did not count on and will in my opinion cause many to go without bees this year. Will be interesting to see how things shake out. High stakes poker: 1. out of state betting they can get loads in at the risk of 15.000 - 20,000 loss for every load turned around..Will be standing by waiting for the $150 phone call. 2. growers betting they can trick beekeepers into 80-90 almond pollination fees at the risk of going without bees for a year. Figure they can fold their hand and call for 150 doller hives if bluff fails. Wait to long and no bees. I can already say out of state beekeepers have been hit in the pocket books. Some are saying the unbooked loads allready in will cost around $200 a hive this year when the phone rings. Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 15:00:02 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Beekeeping Associations In-Reply-To: <00b701c623c7$4707dec0$2bbc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-26DD79C1 > Now to almond pollination prices. What the heck is going on? Beekeepers in New York are now being told that the Almond growers don't need their bees, after the beekeepers were told they did. I hear from someone I know and trust...1500 Australian packages a day have been entering the southwest. Any chance that is what the heck in going on? Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.23/243 - Release Date: 1/27/2006 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 15:02:47 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: California Almond Situation In-Reply-To: <20060128153844.58970.qmail@web53403.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-26DD79C1 > Enlighten me. Australian packages?? Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.23/243 - Release Date: 1/27/2006 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 16:10:20 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: Re: Blundering Along in Bee Breeding >reminds me of traits >reversing them selves while transitioning towards or away >from temperate and tropical zones, like positive to >recessive, and recessive to positive, 'till they meet in >the middle going thru various climatic zones going to >equator or either pole. I have no idea what you are talking about. I was pointing out that there is NO correlation between color and temperament. There is also NO correlation between temper and latitude. And there is no correlation between color and ANYTHING. Peter Borst Danby NY -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 18:29:05 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Almond Pollination in California MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This message was originally submitted by alanhenninger@YAHOO.COM to = the BEE-L list at LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU. It was edited to remove quotes of = previously posted material. ________________________________ Maybe the growers can afford to go a year without bees. At the January beekeepers meeting in Los Banos, it was reported that as much as 40% of the '05 almond crop hadn't sold. Alan -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 17:39:12 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Almond Pollination in California MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Alan & All, >it was reported that as much as 40% of the '05 almond crop hadn't sold. Thanks Alan. I believe you may have solved the riddle! I have got stacks of figures on my desk. I know exactly how many almond groves are in production and roughly the amount of available hives in California and elsewhere for pollination. Everyway I punch the calculator the answer comes up the same. Shortage of hives. Now if that's not the case then the only other possible explanation is growers not taking bees. Packages from Australia hardly effect the issue. The Australians are at capacity and none I have talked to are considering expansion. Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 16:40:24 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: Blundering Along in Bee Breeding In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit ...there > is NO correlation between color and temperament. > There is also NO > correlation between temper and latitude. And there > is no correlation > between color and ANYTHING. REPLY: You may be mistaken here, there is a correlation between body color and the rate of heat absorbtion. "Body color contributes to body temperature and the rate of warming. Radiant heat is more quickly absorbed by a dark body than by a light body,..." (De Jong 1996). JW __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 14:59:48 +1300 Reply-To: dave@thebeegardens.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Black Subject: Drones and varroa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My understanding of the research published about the effect of varroa infestations on drones is that mites have an effect on the number of drones that reach sexual maturity, on the flight performance of mature drones, but not necessarily on sperm quality and quantity. Therefore, while the number of drone colonies needs to be increased to ensure an adequate number of drones make it and don't succumb to what Lipinski calls 'oxidative stress', the quality of the mating should be unaffected. The question is, by how much should they be increased? Larry Connor's Bee Culture article a couple of years back was very useful in telling us how to do the sums, but makes the assumption that all the drones produced are 'consumed' by mating. Drones are supposed to be potential mates for as long as their flight performance lasts undiminished and they can stay competitive. So the related question is, how long is that? What is the lifespan of these competitive but (as yet) unmated drones and how much can/do they contribute to a 'reserve' bolstering the number being produced 'fresh' on a daily basis? Does anyone know if Duay, DeJong & Engles 'flying power' bioassay was used to study the competitive fitness of old drones? References. Connor, How many drone colonies do you need? Bee Culture, November 2003. Collins & Pettis, Effect of Varroa infestation on semen quality. ABJ, Aug 2001, pp590-592. Duay, DeJong, & Engels, Decreased flight performance and sperm production in drones of the honeybee... Genetics and Molecular Research Vol 1(3): 227-232. Lipinski & Zoltowska. Preliminary evidence associating oxidative strees in honeybee drone brood with Varroa destructor, Journal of Apicultural Research, July 2005, pp126-128. Dave Black Otanewainuku, New Zealand. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 14:53:00 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Blundering Along in Bee Breeding In-Reply-To: <20060129004025.25884.qmail@web34304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Joe > You may be mistaken here, there is a correlation > between body color and the rate of heat absorbtion. Heat absorbtion rate is a consequence of body colour, not a cause of it. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 09:24:45 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Drones and varroa Comments: To: dave@THEBEEGARDENS.COM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dave, The big issue now is low sperm count due to use of Fluvalinate & in some cases coumaphos. With even a single use comb contamination happens. Both have now been shown to cause low sperm count in drones. You need to use clean comb for rearing drones and increase the number of drone colonies around mating areas if you suspect low sperm count to be a problem. Most queen breeders keep two full drone combs per hive. Many have went to the new green colored plastic drone comb which is easily seen in the hive. Also always keep those combs to the very outside of the brood nest because of varroa. Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 07:57:34 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob & Char Hack Subject: Re: Almond Pollination in California MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >it was reported that as much as 40% of the '05 almond >crop hadn't sold. The folllowing link, while old gives some valuable insight on almond = production surpluses and/or lack thereof: http://www.fas.usda.gov/htp2/circular/1999/99-11/almsit.htm Note the following from this current link: http://aic.ucdavis.edu/profiles/Almond-2005.pdf "The Almond Board of California annually makes recommendations to the Secretary of the USDA on the percentage of saleable almonds, if any, to = be removed from the market and placed into reserve (Agricultural Marketing = Service(AMS)). The reserve has not been used since 1994." This suggests that the 40% surplus figure could be suspect and needs = further research. Cheers, Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 09:23:24 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: Blundering Along in Bee Breeding In-Reply-To: <43DCD6CC.4050304@lineone.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- Dave Cushman wrote: Joe writes: > > You may be mistaken here, there is a correlation > > between body color and the rate of heat > absorbtion. Dave Replies: > Heat absorbtion rate is a consequence of body > colour, not a cause of it. Hi Dave, The definition of correlation is: 1 : the state or relation of being correlated; specifically : a relation existing between phenomena or things or between mathematical or statistical variables which tend to vary, be associated, or occur together in a way not expected on the basis of chance alone. For example: Bee wing length is linearly correlated with body size (Kimsey 1982) We know that wing length is NOT the cause of the bees size, only that wing length is correlated with bee size. Correlation does not need to be a cause of something, only that a association can be identified between them that would not be expected to occur by chance alone. Therefore, color of a bee can be directly correlated with heat absorption without being the cause of bee color. Bee color may also be correlated with low temperature flying and may have an impact on frequency of drone mating success in higher altitudes and northerly latitudes where there would be selective pressure towards cool weather flying. So many things can be correlated with the body color of a bee. And in a round about way, will cause a darker bee to evolve in areas where the selective pressure exists for this. Best Wishes, JW __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 17:24:14 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: California Almond Situation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Australian packages?? Packages have been coming in from both main sources. They are mostly being used (like last year) to replace deadouts. There is no other source for replacement bees this time of year. Most beekeepers have read my articles and realize it is sound business to replace deadouts and let the almond growers pay for the deadouts. Why wait to April to buy packages and then bare all the cost? Some beekeepers I talked to which reported failure to control varroa after fogging sheep dip last year as a last resort are having trouble keeping their bees alive. Nothing new there. Many of those are reporting from 50% to 100% losses going into almonds. Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 11:22:39 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Nicholas Doumanoff Subject: Reversing Hive bodies/Swarm prevention Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed I began keeping bees last spring in Warwick NY. Currently it looks as if my bees are surviving the winter, as mild as it's been so far. I've read several pros and cons in regards to reversing the hive bodies in the spring to reduce swarming. Would anybody like to share their two cents regarding the reversal of hive bodies, and swarm prevention in general? Thanks, Nick Warwick, NY South Eastern New York State -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 16:31:01 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jeffrey Hamelman Subject: Re: Almond Pollination in California MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Maybe the growers can afford to go a year without > bees. At the January beekeepers meeting in Los Banos, > it was reported that as much as 40% of the '05 almond > crop hadn't sold. > > Alan > So since the '05 almond harvest, about 60% of the crop has sold, and we are about 50% of the way to the next harvest. Alan, your explanation doesn't hold up. Jeff in Vermont > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 18:16:16 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: Almond Pollination in California In-Reply-To: <003601c6251b$4ef68000$6501a8c0@jefferya8sisex> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 04:31 PM 1/29/2006, you wrote: >So since the '05 almond harvest, about 60% of the crop has sold, and we are >about 50% of the way to the next harvest. Alan, your explanation doesn't >hold up. Not necessarily true. Often supplies are sold in advance of delivery. According to the article at: http://www.honeyrunapiaries.com/25.138.0.0.1.0.phtml "A report by the Almond Board of California pegs the volume of almonds in storage Dec. 31 at 568 million pounds, virtually the same as the 564 million pounds on hand one year earlier." "The biggest difference is the unsold inventory was 378 million pounds, nearly 30 percent more than the 291 million pounds unsold as of Dec. 31, 2004. " -Tim -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 20:11:10 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: jpstein@VERIZON.NET Subject: AHB News From Florida Here's an article from the January 28, 2006 edition of the Sun-Sentinel.com entitled "Killer bees join list of hazards of Florida living" : http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/southflorida/sfl-killerbees-jan28,0,1875683.story?track=mostemailedlink I know Dee doesn't think the AHB is a big problem for beekeepers but this kind of article sure will fan the flames of local government regulators to regulate beekeeping. Jim -- ----------------------------------------------------------- jpstein@verizon.net ----------------------------------------------------------- -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 21:40:06 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: FW: [BEE-L] Almond Pollination in California MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This message was originally submitted by b_line@VERIZON.NET to the BEE-L = list at LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU. It was edited to remove quotes of previously = posted material. =20 > about 60% of the crop has sold, and we > are about 50% of the way to the next harvest.=20 =20 Jeff, Just curious, what can you predict with any certainty that at the = end of the next harvest all the almonds will be sold? Perhaps the almond growers assumed there was an insatiable market or something close to it at the prices they are willing to sell for? Alden Marshall Hudson, NH -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 20:49:01 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Steve Bonine Subject: Re: Anonymous Posters (was) New York State Apiary Inspection In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Keith Malone: > > I whole heartedly agree, A persons words should be backed up by > their name. Yes, but who's to say that the name that's on the email message is real. How do you know I'm "Steve Bonine"? Put yourself in the shoes of the moderator . . . someone signs up for Bee-L using a reasonable- looking email address and submits a reasonable-looking post. As a moderator, how do you decide whether they're who they say they are in the header of the email message? I suppose that a rule could be put in place that the name needs to "look like a real name". That would eliminate things like "Beebrain", but anyone who wanted to be anonymous would simply pick a pseudonym that looked more like a name. I think that the best we can expect from the moderators is a reasonable attempt to screen submissions based on information submitted. There's no way that they can tell if the name that's associated with it is real. Anything past that and you're just fooling yourself. I, too, would like to hold everyone to their name. It's simply not possible to do so in today's Internet environment. I apologize that this submission has nothing to do with beekeeping. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 20:25:07 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: What is overall Africanized Honeybee Identification Parameter Status? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi all: It has been written a lot here on what is being done to tell the difference between Africanized honeybees and European honeybees. But may I ask simply what tests are available to tell the difference between Africanized honeybees and the ones from Asia, Southeast Asia, and EurAsia honeybees, as certainly those data banks have been put together also,or would need to be, as I wouldn't want to see the same things happening in other countries as what is happening here or could happen to Europe, as bees today are flow around the world or shipped. Would someone please give me an update whether FAO or WTO or other, as to what has been done or is being done? Thank you. Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 22:56:57 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jim Shoemaker Subject: AHB in Florida MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I read this report with interest and great concern. Have these been reports like this from other coastal states. Jem -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 22:58:08 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: AHB News From Florida MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, In an upcoming article for ABJ I will present exactly what is being done in Florida to combat a growing serious problem. I thank Jerry Hayes and the Florida Apiary inspection for letting me look over their shoulder. These AHB bees are not bees I would want in my yards. The incidents are real and in my opinion more aggressive than AHB found in Texas. In looking through the AHB test results and talking to commercial beekeepers I was amazed to see & hear names I recognized. Like Michael Hausel & Dee Lusby to name a couple. Enough said but Michael & Dee will know what I am talking about ! Queens have been traced back to California & Texas with AHB genetics. Some close to 100%. Please don't kill the messenger but it is what it is. Really does not matter which part of the U.S. you keep bees in. Accept they are widespread and go about your beekeeping. Keep a close eye out for aggressive hives. Kick test works best! I recommend killing the hive to eliminate the drones. Stop doing walk away splits in AHB areas. The AHB of Florida many times do not respond to smoke. Only seems to make the situation worse. One beekeeper reported Carthart heavy coveralls , welders gloves and duck taping all openings worked good while killing the hive. Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 00:05:16 -0600 Reply-To: scot.mcpherson@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot Mc Pherson Organization: The Mc Pherson Family Honey Farms Subject: FABIS: Caucasian vs. Africanized MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There has been some discussion about some of us small cell people perhaps having africanized honey bees. I know that Dee has been challenged to "prove" her bees aren't africanized. Well I have an idea here which may seem strange, but perhaps no stranger than FABIS being used as a rule, by the way the fabis standards include disclaimers for local conditions and common breeds and the actual standard was developed for only one specific place according to the standard saying in very general terms (YOUR MILAGE MAY VARY). So we have fabis which looks at wings, and we know that European races (Italian, AMM and Carniolan) are one general grouping, and scutellata is supposed to be the other grouping, what happens when other breeds become involved or are subjected to the test? They remain "unclassified" in fabis standards. How many bees are "unclassified" and can only be rooted out by other methods including morphomety and genetic testing? We have seen and demonstrated that small cell caucasians can by FABIS be "unclassified" and often even confused with scutallata, often due to the vast coloration differences range of caucasians. Caucasians can display characteristics throughout the range of yellow to black depending solely on their climate and latitude, so how can we deterimine yellow caucasians from yellow AHB? I suspect there is a simple FABIS like field test which can be accomplished that can be used to counter-test FABIS results. Caucasian bees have documented longer mouth parts that any other Apis mellifera breed. Therefore is should be just as easy to distinguish scutellata X..from caucasians. This very experiment has been tested in Sao Paolo and results are viewable online at: http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?pid=S1415-47571998000400010&script=sci_a rttext&tlng=en Forgive the broken link, you'll have to paste it back together. To give a short summary, it says that caucasian bees have distinguishably longer mouth parts than scutallata, and graduated crosses between these races demonstrated and correspondingly gradual change in mouth part length. This really could/should be a basis for FABIS(2) or addendum to current FABIS standards which can distinguish scutellata from other races of bees besides the 3 recognized european races. Consider that caucasian bees come from the ural mountains which is infact on the more asian side of the eurasian devide. Also brings up some other interesting things to think about which I am not willing to stick my neck out that far yet, but stuff I think that is likely to be discussed sometime in the future. However if FABIS needs to be updated, then why isn't it being updated? Or is it and I just didn't know the good folks of the USDA were working on it? If they aren't, is there a specific reason why its not if it effects beekeepers all over, and if there isn't a reason why is fabis still being used if it is ineffective? -- Scot Mc Pherson The Mc Pherson Family Honey Farms -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 07:02:10 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: Re: FABIS: Caucasian vs. Africanized Greetings I think it is useful to point out that NO bees have been imported from Italy, Carniola (Slovenija), or Caucasia (Republic of Georgia) since the 1920s. It is even longer since bees were imported from Spain and Northern Europe. So the names italian, carniolan, and caucasian must be taken with a grain of salt, at least in the US and areas where these bees are not native. This stuff has been pretty well mixed for decades. Attempts have been made to keep them "separate" based on color. Color is not a really indicator of type. Even in their native regions, these bees all varied in coloration; in the US, the italians got yellower, and the caucasians got blacker -- through selection here. The DNA tests of the Africans show "markers" (genes) from these various types, but the overwhelming evidence shows that they have much more in common with African bees than the types they have crossed with. In other words, it makes very little difference whether the bees have caucasian, carniolan, or any other markers. What makes a difference is the preponderance of African genes, and the related African behaviors. And I don't mean just that they are mean. They swarm much more often, store less honey, run all over the place, sneak into other hives. You don't want these bees. Peter Borst Danby NY -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 07:32:16 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: AHB News From Florida In-Reply-To: <001701c62559$c484ea80$25bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-4B6D38D8 > Like Michael Hausel & Dee Lusby to name a couple. Enough said but Michael & >Dee will know what I am talking about ! And others know what you are talking about too, Bob. I think it's time for Michael Hausel, Dee, and Bob to spill the beans. News travels fast. Why not tell the whole story, and not beat around the bush. Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.23/243 - Release Date: 1/27/2006 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 05:46:25 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: Apitherapy Seminar in Toronto, Canada MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Apitherapy Seminar in Toronto, Canada Healing with Bee Products When: Saturday, February 18, 2006, 2-3:30 p.m. Where: Foodshare, 200 Eastern Avenue, Toronto, Ontario, Canada Topics covered will include healing with propolis, royal jelly, bee venom, honey, bee-collected pollen, and beeswax. Pamphlets and samples of bee products will be provided. For more information, contact Oliver Couto, e-mail: imaginaryaxis@hotmail.com Tel: 416-232-2225 For more Apitherapy-related news, go to: www.apitherapynews.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 08:14:32 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Reversing Hive bodies/Swarm prevention In-Reply-To: <2EB09E7E-C9FA-4417-8DEB-E732B20408D7@WARWICK.NET> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-4B6D38D8 > the reversal of hive bodies, and >swarm prevention in general? Remember that all beekeeping is local. What works here in the north, might not be of use in warmer climates. Does reversing brood chambers work to control swarming? Sometimes yes, sometimes no. I guess it depends on why the bees want to swarm. I feel that there are two main reasons for swarming. First, bees swarm because they are crowded or undersupered. Think about what happens when brood hatches. The bees clean and polish the recently vacated brood cells, and the queen re-lays in those cells. The young recently hatched bees become nurse bees, and tend the larvae in that area, until the larvae are capped. The process repeats itself. Then, incoming nectar enters the equation. If there is room above or to the side of the brood combs for nectar storage, then things continue as before. But, if there is no room for nectar storage, the sequence of events changes. When the bees hatch, nectar is placed in these cells. The queen can no longer lay in these brood cells. This, I believe, is one trigger for swarming...incoming nectar being placed in the broodnest where brood has hatched, and limiting where the queen can lay. Now, about reversing. In the north, most colonies are wintered in multiple stories. The colonies begin their buildup, and at some point nectar floods in from a flow like Dandelion. At this point, most colonies don't have any supers on. With nowhere to put the incoming nectar...except for the broodnest...swarm preparations take place. Often with these multiple storied colonies, the bottom box has much empty comb space. Reversing the chambers at this point relieves that pressure. The brood is now in the bottom of the hive, and there is empty comb space at the top, where the bees can place incoming nectar. Placing supers on the hive will have the same effect, for awhile. But, at some point in this process of broodnest expansion and incoming nectar, the sequence of events in the top of the broodnest is again compromised, and swarming preparations begin. It is at this point that I find reversing most helpful. It seems to get most colonies over the hump. I used to reverse at the end of April, and early May...well before the Dandelion flow. No supers were given at this time. The cluster moved up onto the empty comb space, the queen layed in those combs, and filled the combs with brood. Then, in came the Dandelion. The colony was in the same condition as an un-reversed colony. Swarm preparations began. I now give a couple supers in early May, and reverse ON the Dandelion flow. Early supering catches the early nectar flows (my bees were filling supers before Dandelion this past spring...Salix bebbiana??) Reversing on the Dandelion flow takes care of the problem...usually. Some colonies will start cells at this point. Contrary to popular belief, cutting these cells at reversing time will stop swarming in the vast number of cases. Even very strong colonies at this point give up on swarm preparations, and go to work in the supers. And the second reason for swarming? Swarming is a requeening process. We've all had colonies that will continue swarming preparations, no matter what we do. Reverse, super, split, Demaree, Snelgrove Board...whatever. These colonies requeen themselves by swarming, while others use supercedure. Requeen these colonies that don't respond to reversing. Keep an extra super on your colonies from this point until the end of the honey flows, and swarming will be greatly reduced. Hope this helps Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.23/243 - Release Date: 1/27/2006 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 08:28:24 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chuck Norton Subject: AHB Identification: In the Beginning Hello to All, Prior to the first incidence of U. S. Africanization of October 15, 1990 thousands of samples of honeybees, feral and husbanded alike, were taken from most of the nation for morphological and PCR-DNA testing and analysis. FABIS had already been developed. The same was done although not as frequent for Africanized honeybees in Mexico, Central and South America and in Europe. This broad survey established a databank or database for honeybee genera and morphological data frozen in time and mapped distribution of all subspecies of Apis melliferia across America. It is from this forethought that we have our data for morphological, FABIS, and mtDNA comparison. Further reading can be found in Volume 145, Number 4 and Number 5 of the American Bee Journal, "The Price of California's Almond Pollination". Cheers, Chuck Norton -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 14:41:00 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Blundering Along in Bee Breeding In-Reply-To: <20060129172324.1257.qmail@web34305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Joe While what you are saying about the meaning of the word 'correlation' is correct... The subject being discussed (Peter's words) was... > there is NO correlation between color and temperament. There is also > NO correlation between temper and latitude. And there is no > correlation between color and ANYTHING. A better word to use in this circumstance is linkage, which implies cause and effect, so rather than discuss the word, let us re-phrase the original statement... We could say that there is no correlation between colour and race of bee, we could also say that manifestation of temper is not caused by the colouration of a bee. The statement really being made is that colour cannot be taken as an indicator of race or temper. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 16:48:15 +0100 Reply-To: olda.vancata@quicknet.se Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Olda Vancata Subject: Re: Blundering Along in Bee Breeding In-Reply-To: <43DE257C.6080804@lineone.net> > The statement really being made is that colour cannot be taken as an > indicator of race or temper. I've never seen a yellow A. mellifera mellifera... :-) \vov -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 11:45:03 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: FW: [BEE-L] New York State Apiary Inspection MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit This message was originally submitted by miteaway@YAHOO.CA to the BEE-L list at LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU. It was edited to remove quotes of previously posted material. > -----Original Message----- > From: NOD Apiary Products Ltd. [mailto:miteaway@yahoo.ca] > Sent: Monday, January 30, 2006 11:42 AM > To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology > Subject: Re: [BEE-L] New York State Apiary Inspection > > > I made an error in my post of last Friday concerning > the Ontario inspection services. I had erroneously > stated that all hives were checked in Ontario > annually. I should have proof read my email a little > closer. I know that isn't true! Every commercial > beekeeper has a certain number of hives checked in > every beeyard. Hobbyists can have an inspector come > out if they request it. > > Liz Corbett -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 10:21:40 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mea McNeil Subject: Re: "killer bee" facts In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Brian Fredericksen wrote: > some really ridiculous pieces of supposed information on AHB found > on the web. I had a good laugh. > > http://www.insecta-inspecta.com/bees/killer/ > Brian, I appreciate your citing the particular myths on this site. It turns out to be a Website project of a junior high school "honors" program here in Northern California. I wrote them a hard copy letter, which I hope they take in the spirit in which it was intended, explaining how to choose bona fide resources. Mea -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 13:48:56 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: AHB Identification: In the Beginning In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Chuck Norton writes: This broad survey established a databank or database for honeybee genera and morphological data frozen in time and mapped distribution of all subspecies of Apis melliferia across America. It is from this forethought that we have our data for morphological, FABIS, and mtDNA comparison. Reply: Yet there were unresolved disputes if memory serves me correctly back in the late 1980s between the different personnel doing testing and setting up standards........ One that comes to mind, at least to me was with Roger Morse and Prof H. V. Daly, and was even published in a reshearchy review with Dr Morses comments that I don't think was ever resolved. In it Dr Morse says:"Professor H.V. Daly of the University of Calif told me the following:'We have found a few colonies of feral honey bees in Calif that have the morphometric characteristics of Africanized bees. But further testing of alozymes, cuticular hydrocarbons and worker brood comb cell diameter indicates these colonies are European. This is a gind of genetic variation we didn't know about.' I asked professor Daly if this could be an explanation for the finding of AFricanized bees in California earlier and he replied it was not. The question of identifying races of bees ramains a difficult one." Which to me is still.........going on....and how many of these discrepencies are still being found in California, as I really don't think caucasian similar bees, like we have in S. Arizona and San Diego can be properly ID'd yet, especially with those of us on SC. Can anyone verify the corrections were made and where and when published????? I would certainly like to know. Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 13:49:19 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: AHB Identification: In the Beginning In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Chuck Norton writes: This broad survey established a databank or database for honeybee genera and morphological data frozen in time and mapped distribution of all subspecies of Apis melliferia across America. It is from this forethought that we have our data for morphological, FABIS, and mtDNA comparison. Reply: Yet there were unresolved disputes if memory serves me correctly back in the late 1980s between the different personnel doing testing and setting up standards........ One that comes to mind, at least to me was with Roger Morse and Prof H. V. Daly, and was even published in a reshearchy review with Dr Morses comments back around 1987 in Bee Culture, that I don't think was ever resolved. In it Dr Morse says:"Professor H.V. Daly of the University of Calif told me the following:'We have found a few colonies of feral honey bees in Calif that have the morphometric characteristics of Africanized bees. But further testing of alozymes, cuticular hydrocarbons and worker brood comb cell diameter indicates these colonies are European. This is a gind of genetic variation we didn't know about.' I asked professor Daly if this could be an explanation for the finding of AFricanized bees in California earlier and he replied it was not. The question of identifying races of bees ramains a difficult one." Which to me is still.........going on....and how many of these discrepencies are still being found in California, as I really don't think caucasian similar bees, like we have in S. Arizona and San Diego can be properly ID'd yet, especially with those of us on SC. Can anyone verify the corrections were made and where and when published????? I would certainly like to know. Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 18:06:00 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: Re: FABIS: Caucasian vs. Africanized Greetings From: Scot Mc Pherson we know that European races (Italian, AMM and Carniolan) are one general grouping, and scutellata is supposed to be the other grouping, what happens when other breeds become involved or are subjected to the test? Caucasians can display characteristics throughout the range of yellow to black depending solely on their climate and latitude, so how can we deterimine yellow caucasians from yellow AHB? Reply: In the paper "Identification of Africanized Honey Bee Mitochondrial DNA", by M. ALICE PINTO, they report on DNA testing on the various races in the old world and their descendents in the new. In this particular paper, they use these general groupings: Eastern European (A. m. ligustica, A. m. carnica, A. m. caucasia) * Also called eastern Mediterranean. Western European (A. m. mellifera and A. m. iberiensis with A. m. mellifera-like mtDNA) Middle Eastern (A. m. syriaca, A. m. cypria) African (A. m. iberiensis, A. m. intermissa , A. m. scutellata) -- Peter -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 18:24:53 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tom Tamasy Subject: Save a Hive Dear Readers, This weekend I cut down a standing dead, 30" diameter silver maple tree, After dropping it and cutting it into 20" long pieces, I noticed a large honey bee hive within. It occupied about a 6" diameter by 8' long hollow section of the tree. I removed and saved the wax and honey from the upper parts of the hive. The lower part of the hive is still packed with honey, wax, and bees containded within the log. Is it possible to save the hive? I live in the northeast where the bees are hibernating. I understand the importance in sustaining the bee population, so any tips would be greatly appreciated. Thank you Tom Tamasy -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 19:27:05 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: Re: FABIS: Caucasian vs. Africanized MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit QUOTE: > Caucasians can display characteristics throughout the range of yellow to black depending solely on their climate and latitude, so how can we deterimine yellow caucasians from yellow AHB? reply: I don't know where you got this idea that color depends on climate and latitude. I have pointed out, as have others, it's not true. The paper I cited describes how to tell Africans from caucasians. DNA testing is hardly new & it's pretty reliable. QUOTE: In this study, 211 Old World colonies, representing all known introduced subspecies in the United States, and 451 colonies from non-Africanized areas of the southern United States were screened to validate a rapid PCR-based assay for identification of Africanized honey bee mtDNA. This PCR-based assay … discriminates the mitochondrial haplotype (mitotype) of Apis mellifera scutellata L. (ancestor of Africanized bees) from that of A. m. mellifera, A. m. caucasia, A. m. ligustica, A. m. carnica, A. m. lamarcki, A. m. cypria, A. m. syriaca, and some A. m. iberiensis, but not from that of A. m. intermissa and some A. m. iberiensis. Nonetheless, given the very low frequency (<1%) of African non-A. m. scutellata mitotype present before arrival of Africanized bees in the United States, [the] assay can be used to identify maternally Africanized bees with a high degree of reliability. from "Identification of Africanized Honey Bee Mitochondrial DNA", by M. ALICE PINTO, et al. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 19:19:01 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: AHB Identification MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, The identification of AHb is based in three areas. 1. Fabis 2. morph 3.Dna The first two are subject to operator error and are only as good as the samples used. I have actually used the computer program to do the first two. The computer will toss out any measurement out of tolerance but one quickly sees errors can be made with one & two. We are very fortunate as Chuck & Peter have posted to have such a large section of DNA to compare with from prior to AHB arrival. Saying AHB ID using morph can be off is understood in most circles BUT NOT in my opinion when using a good sample for comparison along with a good sample of the test bees and an operator which knows what they are doing. For those which do not have a clue what I am talking about let me explain further. The computer morph test used by the bee labs can not test a single bee. 10 samples are needed. Those ten samples must contain three body parts of which one is the wing. When all the measurements are entered into the computer the computer produces a number which when compared to a chart gives the degree of AHB. The test can also be done without the computer program with hand measurements and a calculator and is done at times to check the computer program. Talk about time consuming and slow! The State of Florida is working on a new simple test which will not be as good as the above but will involve grinding up a sample and adding a chemical. Jerry Hayes spoke of the search for the new field test at the last Florida State Beekeepers meeting. To sum things up when a sample is sent to a bee lab the type of test used depends on the need to know. A serious stinging incident would certainly warrant DNA. To those which know the terminology better than I the above may sound crude but I have tried to explain in language the average beekeeper will understand. I have done and seen done all but DNA testing but will gladly ask those on the list with greater knowledge to correct if any of the above they feel is not correct. The State of Florida declined to let me inside their DNA lab to take pictures and do interviews. Not a problem as they certainly gave me access to all the other areas for which I am grateful! Maybe at a future time. Sincerely, Bob Harrison -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 00:58:50 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "johnnyreb.1@netzero.net" Subject: Re: AHB in FLAUSA Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain The bees have been in florida alot longer than what Jerry Hayes is eludi= ng to.The biggest problem has been the ports and free trade,even though = there are those that point the fingers at the Queen breeders from the ho= t states. When I try to keep hundreds of hives alive and have a hard time maintain= ing numbers, killing a strong hive is not an option. Requeening yes. The= more people hash things that for the most part are war story in origin = and not of pure fact in a public read forum , the more the media will pi= ck up unfounded hipe and the worse it will "bee" for those of here in fl= orida that are trying to make a living in an already hard time. "Remember where there are fruits and nuts there are beekeepers" David Adams West Central FLAUSA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 10:59:36 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Blundering Along in Bee Breeding MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all I have had an offlist message from Olda that asked about the degree of investigation... As I think the reply is relevant to the thread on identification of AHB, I copy my reply below... **** Hi Olda > How many parameters on the wing you measured? One? Two? Even if CI > AND DS are correct, it doesn't guarantie that the bee is mellifera > mellifera. I fully agree, at various times I have used a number of different parameters. The degree of investigation in any one case depends on the amount of information you already know about the subject colony. If you are looking at a colony from a breeding program, with a known pedigree, it is possible to use smaller sample numbers and fewer criteria. If the subject colony's history is totally unknown, you have to put in more effort to get sensible conclusions. > The only safe morphometry method is DAWINO. I don't believe any morphometry method is totally 'safe' and should never be relied upon without correlation with behaviour and/or DNA, but in general the more work that is put in to collect the data the more you can rely on the results that the data shows. However some DNA studies conducted about 3 years ago, concluded that only three colonies contained Italian genes out of 370 that were previously thought to be AMM by behaviour and morphometry. So a combination of DNA behaviour and morphometry can give sound conclusions and behaviour and morphometry on their own can give results of 0.0081% errors. This information has to be tempered by the fact that we only have a test that can definitely identify Ligustica genes, there may have been contamination from other races like Carnica that did not show up, but such errors are likely to be of similar order to the ones established for definite. **** I should add that it is common to use the body parts from 50 bees to make an assessment, but if you already know the details of the Queen and Drone parents, then a sample of 30 is considered OK as long as nothing unusual shows up, then you have to look again with bigger sample and more criteria. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 14:10:37 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Save a Hive Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>The lower part of the hive is still packed with honey, wax, and bees containded within the log. I'd save it for sure. Stand up the log and secure it against tipping over with the entrance hole facing south. Cover the top to keep the elements out - if need be, you screw down a square piece of plywood to the top of the log and staple tar paper to it. If the queen did not get killed and they have sufficient honey, they'll make it the spring just fine. In April/May, you'll be able to transfer them into a standard hive. Enjoy! Waldemar PS> Bees do not hibernate - they cluster to conserve heat. :) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info ---