From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 10:25:12 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-90.3 required=2.4 tests=AWL,MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR, SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6EC7849060 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:24:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SF1MLq014128 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:24:51 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:24:50 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0604A" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 74869 Lines: 1843 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2006 07:28:13 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: FW: Drones above the excluder MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 ________________________________ From: queenbee [mailto:queenbee@gil.com.au] Sent: Sat 2006.04.01 01:44 To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Subject: Drones above the excluder Chris asks > What leads you to conclude that the drones were as a result of eggs = laid > by workers and not=20 > a) trapped above the excluder by a manipulation by the beekeeper Firstly it was drones in worker cells. If it was manipulation of brood being brought up, then you would expect to see workers in workers cells = and drones in drone cells. In these cases it was sealed drone brood plus hatched drones. The first time, the results of which are in the paper, = I had not carried out any raising of the brood above the excluder for at = least 4 months as it was the end of winter and I do not raise brood during = winter. The second case I looked at my recods, as kept for my barrier system, = and I had not added any supers during the previous 4 weeks. I had taken = supers off and I only carry our brood raising when I add supers. > b) The result of eggs moved by anarchistic bees? If it was eggs moved, as against laid, by anarchistic bees, then what = type would they move? Workers, drones? My understanding is that anarchistic behaviour is caused by workers with activated ovaries. In the two cases = I saw, there was much drone sealed brood, 100's +, so they would have had = to move all these eggs and placed them in the cells side by side in a = normal laying pattern. Would moved eggs be in a normal laying pattern or in a random pattern? Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA Coming to Apimondia in Australia in 2007? -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2006 16:44:25 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: queenbee Subject: Drones above the excluder MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chris asks > What leads you to conclude that the drones were as a result of eggs laid by > workers and not: > > a) trapped above the excluder by a manipulation by the beekeeper Firstly it was drones in worker cells. If it was manipulation of brood being brought up, then you would expect to see workers in workers cells and drones in drone cells. In these cases it was sealed drone brood plus hatched drones. The first time, the results of which are in the paper, I had not carried out any raising of the brood above the excluder for at least 4 months as it was the end of winter and I do not raise brood during winter. The second case I looked at my recods, as kept for my barrier system, and I had not added any supers during the previous 4 weeks. I had taken supers off and I only carry our brood raising when I add supers. > b) The result of eggs moved by anarchistic bees? If it was eggs moved, as against laid, by anarchistic bees, then what type would they move? Workers, drones? My understanding is that anarchistic behaviour is caused by workers with activated ovaries. In the two cases I saw, there was much drone sealed brood, 100's +, so they would have had to move all these eggs and placed them in the cells side by side in a normal laying pattern. Would moved eggs be in a normal laying pattern or in a random pattern? Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA Coming to Apimondia in Australia in 2007? -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2006 05:24:31 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Queens in Florida In-Reply-To: <9D95C2906FCCE04F836ECA17C4CE0921030C1475@UAEXCH.univ.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit New news from Florida. Got this yesterday evening from a friend. Mike in LA FLORIDA DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE AND CONSUMER SERVICES DIVISION OF PLANT INDUSTRY BUREAU OF PLANT AND APIARY INSPECTION APIARY INSPECTION SECTION BEST MANAGEMENT PRACTICES FOR PRODUCING HONEY BEE QUEENS IN FLORIDA 1. Beekeepers will maintain a valid registration with the Florida Department of Agriculture/Division of Plant Industry (FDACS/DPI), and be current with any and all special inspection fees. 2. Mating and Mating Yards: A. Drones. A minimum of 60 European drone source colony equivalents must be established for each 1,000 or fewer mating nuclei. If colonies are divided, the European drone source equivalent of 60 European drone source colonies will still be required for each 1,000 or fewer mating nuclei. Seventy-five per cent of European drone source colony equivalents shall be located within ¼ mile radius of the mating nuclei yard and the remaining 25% shall be located within one mile of the mating yard. No drones or drone brood may be introduced into colonies or mating nuclei unless they originate from colonies with European Honey Bee (EHB) breeder queens or EHB production queens. B. Queens and requeening. Producers of breeder queens and production queens are required to requeen drone producing colonies with EHB production queens on an annual basis. Queens used in drone colonies may also be EHB queens produced in an area outside of a detected area or by progeny tests of worker bees using, FDACS/DPI approved identification techniques. 3. Breeder queens and European drone source colonies must be headed by EHB queens. 4. Collected honey bee drone semen shall originate from only drones produced by EHB queens. 5. The beekeeper/queen producer must maintain all documents pertaining to the sale and/or distribution of queens, drones, drone semen from their business and make them available to a FDACS/DPI/Apiary Representative. 6. Florida beekeepers should be discouraged from collecting swarms that cannot be immediately re- queened from EHB queen producers. 7. Florida beekeepers should practice good swarm prevention techniques to prevent an abundance of virgin queens and their ready mating with available Africanized Honey Bees (AHB) drones. 8. Maintain all EHB colonies in a strong, healthy, populous condition to discourage usurpation (take over) swarms of AHB. 9. Do not allow any weak or empty colonies to exist in an Apiary, as they may be attractive to AHB swarms. 10. Recommend re-queening with European stock every six months using marked or clipped queens or produce a bill of sale from a EHB Queen Producer. 11. Maintain one European drone source colony for every 10 colonies in order to reduce supercedure queens mating with AHB drones. 12. To prevent potential interaction with AHB, do not site apiaries within ¼ mile of tethered or confined animals, students, the elderly, general public, drivers on public roadways, or visitors where this may have a higher likelihood of occurring. 13. Treat all honey bees with respect. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2006 15:19:37 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Drones above the excluder MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Trevor Weatherhead wrote: >...there was much drone sealed brood, 100's +, so they would have had to >move all these eggs and placed them in the cells side by side in a normal >laying pattern. Would moved eggs be in a normal laying pattern or in a >random pattern? I have never seen workers lay in a normal laying pattern - always just the odd cells here and there. A normal laying pattern with drone brood in worker comb would suggest to me that an unmated queen was trapped above the excluder. This can sometimes happen during manipulation when a newly hatched queen flies and then lands back in the supers before the roof is put on. Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2006 14:07:42 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: Queens in Florida Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Note the recommendation to site bees at least one quarter mile (over 400 yards) from "tethered or confined animals, students, the elderly, general public, drivers on public roadways, or visitors". I suspect that these rules will quickly spill over into other states! You can download the original at: www.doacs.state.fl.us/pi/plantinsp/apiary/bmp_hbq120506.doc -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2006 14:20:38 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Maintaining European Honey Bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit BEST MANAGEMENT PRACTICES FOR MAINTAINING EUROPEAN HONEY BEE COLONIES excerpts: Recommend re-queening with European stock every six months using marked or clipped queens or produce a bill of sale from a EHB Queen Producer. Immediately re-queen with a European Queen if previously installed clipped or marked queen is found missing. More docs from the Florida Bureau of Plant & Apiary Inspection can be found at: http://www.doacs.state.fl.us/pi/plantinsp/apiary/apiary.html -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2006 08:55:55 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: queenbee Subject: Re: Drones above the excluder MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I have never seen workers lay in a normal laying pattern - always just the > odd cells here and there. I have often seen regular patterns in laying workers. Just recently, I deliberately made a nuc queenless to make it have laying workers for a field day to show others what a hive with a laying worker looks like. Unfortunately, I left it a bit late and it had not become a laying worker in time. When I came back to it a week after the event laying workers had commenced and it was in a regular pattern. > A normal laying pattern with drone brood in worker comb would suggest to > me that an unmated queen was trapped above the excluder. This can > sometimes happen during manipulation when a newly hatched queen flies and > then lands back in the supers before the roof is put on. No doubt that could happen. In the two instances I saw, the workers had stopped laying drones and the sealed brood was the only evidence. If it was an unmated queen, would it stop laying? Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA Coming to Apimondia in Australia in 2007? -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2006 07:34:38 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Marc Studebaker Subject: Re: Drones above the excluder MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter and Trevor Would moved eggs be in a normal laying pattern or in a >>random pattern? > > I have never seen workers lay in a normal laying pattern - always just the > odd cells here and there. A normal laying pattern with drone brood in > worker comb would suggest to me that an unmated queen was trapped above > the excluder. It is not unusual for a queen to find her way through an imperfect excluder and lay a patch of drone brood at the bottom of the frames in the upper box and then go back down. Marc Studebaker -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2006 16:04:50 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Drones above the excluder MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Marc Studebaker asked: > Would moved eggs be in a normal laying pattern or in a I have no idea as I have never seen eggs being moved, but I cannot believe that they would be placed in a neat pattern. > It is not unusual for a queen to find her way through an imperfect > excluder and lay a patch of drone brood True, but only if you use drone comb in the super! I still have difficulty believing that some workers lay in a tight pattern like a queen. All my personal experience and all the books that I have read suggest otherwise. Has anyone observed workers actually laying? Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2006 17:22:53 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Drones above the excluder In-Reply-To: <017701c65651$ceeff590$2ab31242@D99JVT51> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All > It is not unusual for a queen to find her way through an imperfect > excluder and lay a patch of drone brood at the bottom of the frames in > the upper box and then go back down. If that were the case, a mated queen would have laid workers in worker cells, we are talking about drones in worker cells. If you follow the paper trail about anarchistic behaviour, thelytoky and worker policing, you will find many papers that include Ben Oldroyd as one of the authors and a good number of them also include Francis Ratnieks in the list of authors, these two guys have made quite a bit of progress on this subject. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2006 17:32:43 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Drones above the excluder In-Reply-To: <000c01c65666$caaa7720$7f752a50@office> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Peter > I still have difficulty believing that some workers lay in a tight > pattern like a queen. There is a difference between 'laying workers' and eggs laid by 'anarchistic bees'. In the former case a lack of pheromone caused by a failing (or missing) queen allows ovaries in workers whose development was originally repressed to develop to the point of being capable to lay an egg. I think the case of anarchistic behaviour is one whereby a certain amount of development of ovaries was present when the worker was raised (a sort of intercaste situation) I see no reason that such a semi fertile worker would not have the ability to lay in a similar fashion to a queen. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2006 13:54:39 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Eric_Brown?= Subject: principles of cell finishers Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello everyone! I just transferred this year's first batch of queen cells to a couple cell finishers, and I'm hoping that some of you can help me gain a better understanding of cell finishers. I think I pretty well know the rules, but I don't really understand the principles behind the rules. If I understood the principles I might be able to tweak the rules to better fit my circumstances, but as it is I feel tightly bound to the standard practices. So these are my questions: Why do I put a queen excluder between the queen in the cell finisher and the cells? What would happen if I didn't? As it is, why doesn't the established queen in the cell finisher swarm? Apparently there are different triggers for swarming and for tending to queen cells? What are those triggers? What are my options for pressing one trigger and not the other, and what are my limitations? What difference would it make if I surrounded my queen cells in the cell finisher with open brood versus sealed brood? Once the queen cells are sealed does the optimal set-up in the cell finisher change? Thanks everyone, Eric -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2006 19:27:53 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: Drones above the excluder In-Reply-To: <442FFCAB.5040305@lineone.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed I think that quite a few threads on here recently are forgetting a simple principle, that a simple explanation usually fits best and is usually, granted not without exception, the one that turns out to be the factual one. I get drone brood sporadically above the excluders in at least a third of all colonies in spring and early summer. (The time they are most likely to be wanting to raise drones) We NEVER get this pattern later in the season when the drone raising urge is less or absent (exit the laying workers or virgins explanantion) Usually it is the drone patches from previous extracting damage repaired by the bees that get it, but have seen, like Trevor describes, drone in worker cells too, all up above the excluder with no other evidence that the queen has ever been there. I believe that most, if not all, these eggs originate from the queen.........and find the questions about OK, why are they drone then, to be odd. I have seen with my own eyes, on MANY occasions, bees carrying away eggs. Never actually seen them being deposited in cells by the workers, but they must take them somewhere. The secret is that these are NOT eggs already laid in cells whereby the queen will already, by gauging the cell, have eiher issued a fertilised or unfertilised egg. These eggs are taken directly from the queens abdomen, and never were in a cell, so the likelihood is that without cell guaging, it is unlikely that the egg will have been fertilised, and the results are almost universally drone, irrespective of what type of cell the bees deposit it in. So, as far as I see it, at least in our own operation, there is a very simple explanation and the trait is unimportant. -- Murray McGregor -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2006 23:32:14 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Predrag Cvetkovic Subject: bees carrying eggs, was Re: [BEE-L] Drones above the excluder MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Murray wrote: > I have seen with my own eyes, on MANY occasions, bees carrying away > eggs. Never actually seen them being deposited in cells by the workers, > but they must take them somewhere. The secret is that these are NOT eggs > already laid in cells whereby the queen will already, by gauging the > cell, have eiher issued a fertilised or unfertilised egg. These eggs are > taken directly from the queens abdomen, and never were in a cell, so the > likelihood is that without cell guaging, it is unlikely that the egg > will have been fertilised, and the results are almost universally drone, > irrespective of what type of cell the bees deposit it in. Murray, thanks a lot for your precious input! I hope it will be extremely useful to explain observations that my friend Srdjan Todorovski made about bees carrying eggs and putting into queen cell cups. He wrote an article 'New Purposes of Artificial Queen Cell Cups (Biological role of bell shaped cells)' We will be very thankful to everyone who can have a look at the article at my website and tell us his opinion: http://www.pcela.co.yu/bell_shaped_cells1.htm The article has two parts, pictures are not too good but I think Srdjan will make new ones this year. Best regards Predrag Cvetkovic predragcv@ptt.yu -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2006 14:51:06 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Charles Harper Subject: Re: principles of cell finishers In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You need to surround the open queen cell with open brood because that is what is needed to bring up the nurse bees to feed the queen cells not sealed brood. Once the cells are caped the finisher now becomes a incubator and sealed brood is preferred. An excluder stops the queen sent from getting around the queen cell so the nurse bees will feel they are queen less and feed the queen cells. Harper's Honey Farm Charlie labeeman@russianbreeder.com Ph# 337 298 6261 Eric Brown wrote: > What > difference would it make if I surrounded my queen cells in the cell > finisher with open brood versus sealed brood? Once the queen cells are > sealed does the optimal set-up in the cell finisher change? > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 08:28:15 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Murray McGregor Subject: bees carrying eggs In-Reply-To: <000f01c6569d$14db2c00$c37f89d5@predrag> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed One further tale to add to the 'carrying eggs' theme. Several seasons ago we had a large spring colony in one of our out apiaries, which on first examination of the season turned out to be for some reason (not known) to be queenless. There was no brood, no evidence of recent brood, no pollen gathering, and a lot of 'queenless noise' from the bees. Next time back we went to turf it out to reuse the box, only to find a nice perfect looking queen cell on one comb (no other cells or any brood present). Somewhat puzzled we left it alone and waited to see what would happen. Next time back it was hatched, the colony was orderly, and pollen was being stored in nice arcs, and large patches were open and polished for egg laying. We did not see or hunt for a virgin (time constraints). Then on the next visit there was good worker brood present, and sealing had just begun. A good boost of hatching brood from powerful neighbours followed and them it went on to have a productive and satisfactory season. I already hear the thelytoky (sp) shouts going up, and various complex solutions being advanced in minds across the globe, especially in small cellers.......... HOWEVER......... This colony was all black bees. Classic northern European Blacks. No yellow coloured bees at all. A couple of hives away there was a Hawaiian (Kona) Carniolan, and was a standard open mated production queen, which, as most who have used them will know, means a preponderance of yellow matings, and the workers are actually mainly crosses with Italians. The new queen in the black colony was a yellow striper, and once its brood hatched it was apparent that it had become a 2nd generation Kona colony. None of the Konas had swarmed or were near to swarming. The cell was raised in the black colony, and no manual transfers had taken place. So, did the bees steal an egg from their near neighbour? Seems the most likely explanation. If so, I wonder how common it is? Amongst bees where there is no obvious distinguishing trait it will never be noticed. This was a case where it was obvious the new queen was not of the original type and could not possibly have originated from the hive bees. I personally doubt that it actually is common as to see a hopelessly queenless colony become queenright without beekeeper intervention is a rarity. We have seen it happen in other cases and assumed that for some reason we had missed a virgin or the declining colony had been taken over by an incoming swarm. However this was plainly not the case here. -- Murray McGregor -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2006 22:48:36 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Question on Chips for Jerry In-Reply-To: <000c01c65666$caaa7720$7f752a50@office> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Jerry: Could you give us an update on a chip that was written about years ago being developed and supposedly tested successfully for distinguishing AHBs from Eu bees by noise analysis similar to identifying abnormalities in nuclear reactor operations, so beekeepers could electronically distinguisyh hives that become infested. Think it was also being developed for studying mating and foraging habits also. Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeping Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2006 23:04:11 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Drones above the excluder In-Reply-To: <442FFA5D.4040605@lineone.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dave writes: these two guys have made quite a bit of progress on this subject. Reply: Well this is good to know then Dave, but in the mean time perhaps you could enlighten us a little more on the subject matter so it is more openly known, and can be talked about. As you probably already know I have been watching how much of this relates in our bees for years, and in observation hives have watched laying workers for hours on end, with wings folded like little birds, laying in nice tight brood patterns just like normal queens; even video taping and swaping info with local lab for awhile. Do your two references by any chance have info on the workers fighting for dominance to see who gets to lay perhaps? and outcomes in patterning? Trevor, by the way how is this being seen on your end? Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 09:36:57 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Drones above the excluder MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dave Cushman wrote: > (a sort of intercaste situation) I see no reason that such a semi fertile > worker would not have the ability to lay in a similar fashion to a queen. Sounds logical, but that situation is not the same as 'normal' laying workers. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 09:44:00 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Drones above the excluder MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Murray McGregor wrote: >These eggs are taken directly from the queens abdomen A very interesting post. Have you seen workers taking the eggs from the queen? I wonder why they should then struggle up through the excluder with them? Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 12:36:33 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: Drones above the excluder In-Reply-To: <000d01c656fa$c1299b60$b5792a50@office> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed In message <000d01c656fa$c1299b60$b5792a50@office>, Peter Edwards writes >A very interesting post. Have you seen workers taking the eggs from >the queen? Yes, many times. You see the queen with an egg already presented at the tip of the abdomen, and a worker removes it and goes to wherever. > >I wonder why they should then struggle up through the excluder with them? I always ASSUMED it to be because of our culling of bad combs in the brood nest (anything over 10% or so in drone gets a one way trip to the melter). They were being left with not enough drones for their natural wishes, and so eggs were taken to where there WERE drone cells available. I appreciate that this does not explain why they should place some of them in worker cells, but they undoubtedly do place a *few* there. -- Murray McGregor -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 12:33:09 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Drones above the excluder In-Reply-To: <000601c656f9$c4fcdff0$b5792a50@office> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Peter > Sounds logical, but that situation is not the same as 'normal' laying > workers. That is exactly the point, we were talking about anarchistic bees being the likely cause an occurrence of drone brood in worker cells above a sound excluder, rather than just laying workers, then the thread title got changed to 'Drones above the excluder' which brought in all sorts of other aspects. I think the confusion arises due to the fact that anarchistic bees are also laying workers, but not all laying workers are anarchistic. There is also confusion because some beekeepers do not recognise the difference between the two behaviours. Anarchistic behaviour exists normally only at very low levels and so is hard to detect. Odd colonies are found that exhibit the behaviour more strongly, such colonies are highly prized and are studied extensively, because the studying is easier, that is not to say that the behaviour observed in these rare, but well studied colonies, is necessarily exactly the same as the effect when it is exhibited at more normal very low levels. Although the levels of this behaviour are low (say one in 10,000 bees), I reckon that the distribution of the behaviour is quite wide (maybe one hive in about twenty). These sorts of numbers would not give rise to the effect being noticed very much. Before you can estimate the effect on diversity of these extra drones, you also need to take into account the intensity of worker policing involved and the possibility of thelytoky, which is also very rare (2 or 3 orders of magnitude lower than anarchy). However small the effect is, it is always in the bees favour from a 'survivability' point of view. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 07:44:24 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: principles of cell finishers Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Abejero wrote: >So these are my questions: Why do I put a queen excluder between the queen >in the cell finisher and the cells? What would happen if I didn't? As it >is, why doesn't the established queen in the cell finisher swarm? >Apparently there are different triggers for swarming and for tending to >queen cells? What are those triggers? What are my options for pressing >one trigger and not the other, and what are my limitations? What >difference would it make if I surrounded my queen cells in the cell >finisher with open brood versus sealed brood? Once the queen cells are >sealed does the optimal set-up in the cell finisher change? Abejero (great nickname, muy bien!) First, and this is the most important, there are as many ways of raising queen cells as there are queen breeders! OK. When I raised 1000s of cells, back in the 1980s, I maintained 10 cell builders during the season. These were queenless two story with an excluder. The excluder is to keep queens away from the cells, and also to trap any that might emerge accidentally. If there is brood, there is always a risk of stray queen hatching. I didn't use brood except one frame of young larvae next to the cells. I would add fresh nurse bees twice a week. Very labor intensive. A queen-right cell builder is easier to maintain, since it can keep producing brood, but I found my way to be more reliable, as long as fresh bees were added twice a week. A queenright cell builder has no reason not to swarm. Better clip the queen! If cells are present, whether because of swarming impulse, supersedure impulse, or cell building, the hive is in perfect condition to cast a swarm. Another reason not to use queen-right cell builders. Once the cells are sealed, it's just an incubator. No need to add unsealed brood, unless you are adding more cells. Most people use a cell builder for several weeks, so it must be maintained. Always check twice a week for stray queen cells, or you may lose the whole batch. When you talk about triggers, you make it sound like a hive of bees is some sort of machine with switches that go on and off! Not so. There are general rules for swarming, etc. but these conditions may be present in various forms and the hive may or may not swarm! Honey bee colony behavior is very interesting and not as predictable as the textbooks might lead you to believe. Kinda like people! You can say what they will probably do, but you can't say what they will do. Beekeepers look for techniques that are reliable, knowing that a given hive will do as it pleases. Hedge your bets. pb -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 08:28:04 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: New Damaging Nosema Species Reported MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Another Piece in the Massive Honeybee Losses Puzzle?=20 >=20 > New Damaging Nosema Species Reported=20 >=20 > Translated by ... Eric McArthur=20 >=20 >=20 > A report in the "Deutsches Bienen Journal", March issue highlights another=20 > possible culprit for the high level of honey bee deaths being recorded > throughout Europe. In 1996 a new species of Nosema was discovered on Apis=20 > cerana, the Asian honeybee, it received the name Nosema ceranae. An=20 > assumption was made at that time that this species was specific to A.=20 > cerana, however in 2005 Chinese scientists isolated the 'new' Nosema=20 > species in A. mellifera colonies in Taiwan. In the same year scientists in=20 > the Castilla -La Mancha Institute in Spain and the University of Madrid=20 > found Nosema ceranae in A.mellifera in Europe for the first time. This > disease vector is only able to be distinguished from Nosema apis, the=20 > classic Apis mellifera vector using molecular genetic techniques. The=20 > incidence of Nosema in Spain has increased from a level of 10% in 2000 to=20 > some 88% in 2004.=20 >=20 > 8 colonies in Germany have already been diagnosed positive for N.ceranae=20 > all of these colonies died.=20 >=20 > The Swiss, Italians, Germans and Austrians have been cooperating in a=20 > Europe wide research programme since 2002. In winter 2002/2003 the Nosema=20 > infection levels were around 38%. Results from trials in Spain seem to > indicate that Nosema infestations are on the increase.=20 >=20 > A worrying factor in the latest reports is that colonies appear to be=20 > being killed very quickly and losses are occurring during the course of=20 > the whole year - bees crawling on the ground in front of the hive is a > classic symptom.=20 >=20 > During the observations this winter colonies were noted making relatively=20 > heavy cleansing flights at 4 C. This observation seems to indicate a=20 > severe need for the bees to defecate. A link to the new Nosema organism=20 > however cannot be made conclusively. There is very little known about the=20 > course of the disease and its symptoms in Asia.=20 >=20 > Reference: "Asian Nosema Disease Vector Confirmed - Is this a new=20 > Infestation or only now discovered?" Dr Wolfgang Ritter, Freiburg=20 > University. 'Das Deutsche Bienen Journal', March issue 2006=20 >=20 Kim Flottum=20 Editor, BeeCulture=20 623 West Liberty Street=20 Medina, Ohio 44256=20 V - 800.289.7668 Ext 3214=20 Fax - 330.725.5624=20 Kim@BeeCulture.com=20 www.BeeCulture.com =20 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 14:01:59 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Drones above the excluder In-Reply-To: <20060403060411.34090.qmail@web51604.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Dee > Well this is good to know then Dave, but in the mean time > perhaps you could enlighten us a little more on the subject > matter so it is more openly known, and can be talked about. There is nothing new or 'secret' about the information, A list of papers is available on... http://lasi.group.shef.ac.uk/flwrpub.html You should follow up the references given in the papers and also the authors and co-authors using ordinary search engine techniques. This will also pick up the Australian end that Ben Oldroyd is involved in. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 09:22:27 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ron Bogansky Subject: Winter Loss MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Everyone, =20 This year my winter losses are much higher than what I normally experience.= I have not had losses like this since 1999. I have pretty much attribute= d it to a couple of factors with mites being the greatest contributor. Wha= t puzzles me though is the location of the losses. One yard had 60% and an= other around 75% with the survivors not all that strong. Two other locatio= ns had less than 10% loss and the colonies were very strong, some requiring= mid-March feeding. All of the deadouts were found full of honey and small= clusters. The colonies were strong going into winter. I did vary my mite= treatments, but did so at each location. I have not really been able to s= ay one treatment was the cause. Three of the locations are within 6 miles = of each other and the last is about 18 miles away. One that had 100% surviv= al is completely exposed to harsh winter conditions as it is in the middle = of an orchard on top of a hill sitting in the middle of 4 open acres. =20 One colony in particular has me really baffled. In early June a sugar roll= showed a very high mite count (~90). The colony was extremely strong and = there was a terrific honey flow on. I decided to let it alone for a few we= eks until the flow was slowing down. A few weeks later the colony was knoc= ked over, scattering all the supers with the aggravated bees chasing away t= he farmer on the tractor working the in field directly in front of the colo= ny. I was there within an hour and decided it was a good time to take off = the honey. I brushed the bees off the frames in front of the colony. I sp= rayed the bees with sucrocide as they were marching back in. A few weeks l= ater I returned and treated with Apistan. It survived the winter and is bo= iling with bees and will need to be split in a week or so to avoid swarming= . The queen is still the original from 2004, so there was really no comple= te shutdown of brood rearing to coincide with treatment. Based on the very= high mite count during the sugar roll this colony should not have made it = (or that=92s what I have been told.) =20 So, I have high losses in colonies that had =93treatable levels=94 of mites= . I have one colony that should have crashed from mite load but is thrivin= g. The losses are geographic specific and not tied to a particular treatme= nt failure. =20 =20 About the only thing I can draw from all this is for best results, one shou= ld knock their hives over in early summer and then apply a soft mite treatm= ent. J=20 =20 I feel the need to quote Pooh Bear. =93When it comes to bees you just don= =92t know.=94 =20 Ron =20 Ron Bogansky Eastern Pennsylvania _________________________________________________________________ It=92s the future of Hotmail: Try Windows Live Mail beta http://www2.imagine-msn.com/minisites/mail/Default.aspx?locale=3Den-us= -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 08:56:52 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Question on Chips for Jerry In-Reply-To: <20060403054836.69529.qmail@web51607.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Dee Asks: >Jerry: >Could you give us an update on a chip...for distinguishing AHBs from Eu >bees by noise >analysis Dee You're referring to the work of Howard Kerr, retired, at Oak Ridge National Lab -- but you're combining two different projects: Howard is an engineer who wanted to keep bees on the ORNL reservation. So, he talked them into letting him work on some projects for the bee industry. 1) An acoustic sensor to distinguish Africanized from European bees, and 2) A chip for tracking bees. The first is still listed on ORNL sites. It consisted of a capsule, microphone, and band-width filter. The idea was to catch a bee, put it in the capsule, let it fly to the light (clear plastic tip). Because AHB is a bit smaller than the European race, Howard hypothesized that the thorax size/shape might effect wing beat frequency, since it acts like a return spring for the wings. As I understand, it worked if one compared a European bee to a true African bee. But, with all of the blending of genetics in the Africanized bees found in the U.S., it didn't do well with these hybrids. In other words, it could distinguish the extremes. The second was a chip that solved the battery power problem by using a tiny photocell. It used infra-red (as I remember) for transmission of the signal from the bee to a transmitter/receiver suspended under a balloon. ORNL spent over $100k of their own money on this. The bee researchers and the bee industry failed to beat a path to their door. So, the only folks with sufficient funds to carry this on and use it came from the three letter gov agencies. I don't know whether it ever went into use, and doubt that we will ever know (little issue of classified work). It did have an unexpected outcome. ORNL got a lot of press on this project, and to this day, many at ORNL credit it with starting a whole push on micro-electronics that continues today with things like nanochips and mems technologies. I've seen ORNL presentations that use the bee chip as a metaphor for this whole are of work. Jerry -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 10:06:08 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Winter Loss MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Ron & All, Difficult to say for sure what happened unless the bees in the deadouts had their heads stuck in cells.(starvation) > All of the deadouts were found full of honey and small clusters. If you rule out mites and disease then the normal cause is because the bees did not raise the last two brood cycles of the season which provides the young bees needed to winter in colder areas such as yours and mine. In our area we had over two months fall of drought and fall pollen was scarce leading to small clusters. No pollen no brood no matter how much honey or syrup you toss at the bees. > The colonies were strong going into winter. I can tell at a glance usually if the last two brood cycles were raised. If strong but old bees then small clusters in spring and slow buildup because of the small cluster. (fuzzy are young and worn out wings aand shinny backs are older bees for those which might not know the way to tell). Those last two brood cycles are more important to me than winter stores as I can usually get frames of honey or feed to the bees in early spring *in Missouri*. Mites or any number of things could be the problem but hard to tell once the hive is dead except for foulbrood. Sincerely, Bob Harrison -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2006 18:20:56 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Anarchistic bees In-Reply-To: <001a01c65443$15b42f70$0f93453d@new1> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Trevor, Still loved what you wrote on the subject matter, but can I also impose on you for a copy of the paper? To Add to my file on this subject matter.....as it really needs to be added to to my file. Don't ask for many papers Trevor. Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Lusby Apiaries, DBA: Arizona Rangeland Honey HC 65 Box 7450 Amado, Arizona 85645 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 19:02:21 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Drones above the excluder In-Reply-To: <443107F5.8010600@lineone.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dave: However small the effect is, it is always in the bees favour from a survivability' point of view. Reply: One in 10,000 isn't bad, nor one in 20 colonies Dave, but have you ever considered reasons for how the ratio might drastically increase? Like: 1. Like critter vandalism in search of food knocking brood about a bit, but still usable. 2. Same with human vandalism, not that sorrily it doesn't happen. 3. Constant grafting with rotation of same hives used for choosen larvae material. 4. Careless field management in the daily observation of brood frames for pests, predators and diseases. All these would be instances of larvae many times being removed from a cell leaving royal jelly then to be cleaned out and cells set back up for laying, and/or just cleaned in general. But for that 1 in 10,000 I would suspect it would up the odds somewhat for the newest of nursebees being pushed into the job......to later turn into thelytoky type bees. Just thought I'd mention this chain of thought for you for wierd things we have done in the past, also timed with time of year(temps). Also thanks for the site for looking papers up for references. Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona htttp://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 21:09:30 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Winter Loss In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Ron Bogansky wrote: I have one colony that should have crashed from mite load but is thriving. Save that queen and use her as a breeder queen. See if her daughters can produce bees that can stand high mite loads and still function well. As we're learning that mites are probably the carriers of viruses that do the actual damage, maybe you have a strain of bees that are highly resistant to the viruses. Would pay to investigate. Mike in LA --------------------------------- New Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Call regular phones from your PC and save big. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2006 11:45:50 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: D Thompson Subject: More on honey bee races and color Comments: To: Aaron Morris MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Perhaps people are unaware of past glaciations... > More on honey bee races and color >These bees of Morocco & Algeria may have been >the origin of the European black bees; they are >certainly related to the bees of Spain (Iberia). Its really a matter of luck, who was where when - 20K yrs ago. Europe was largely covered with ice sheets up to 1 mile high 50K yrs ago Probably ice to Paris. This causes a lack of large trees so bees do not survive. Bees do not do well when summer is cold. Even yellowjackets do not have much of a nest before the ground is warm. I'm sure the Sahara was more 'clement' back then, hard to imagine worse Part of reason that the Pyrenees didn't block recolonization is that it is warmer. Did a toehold survive N of the Pyrenees? Being a northern beekeeper I am very aware of effects of cold This yr ,mild, they all survived for 2nd time (outside) only. Hardly turned on heaters,not a test at all, its encouraging none of the 4 weak nucs died. In an ordinary winter none would have lived (so that would have been the test, of me too since it lacks automation) First pollen mar 30 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2006 17:49:33 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: bob darrell Subject: Where are your bees? was Re: [BEE-L] More on honey bee races and color In-Reply-To: <200604041245.51784.dthompson@nexusisp.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v728) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 4-Apr-06, at 1:45 PM, D Thompson wrote: > I'm sure the Sahara was more 'clement' back then, > hard to imagine worse > Part of reason that the Pyrenees didn't block recolonization > is that it is warmer. Did a toehold survive N of the Pyrenees? > Being a northern beekeeper I am very aware of effects of cold > This yr ,mild, they all survived for 2nd time (outside) only. > Hardly turned on heaters,not a test at all, > Hi All D Thompson and others report on their wintering results, but give no indication of where they live. Its a big world out there and all beekeeping is local. Although mention of Sahara and Pyrenees is made, I suspect D Thompson lives in northern US somewhere. I find it more interesting when I know where the bees are kept. Bob Darrell Caledon Ontario Canada 80W44N -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2006 23:07:21 -0500 Reply-To: scot.mcpherson@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot Mc Pherson Organization: The Mc Pherson Family Honey Farms Subject: Re: More on honey bee races and color In-Reply-To: <200604041245.51784.dthompson@nexusisp.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>> I'm sure the Sahara was more 'clement' back then... In fact the sahara was a sea back then. -- Scot Mc Pherson The Mc Pherson Family Honey Farms Davenport, Iowa USA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 03:48:55 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: D Thompson Subject: Re: Where are your bees In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I suspect D Thompson lives in northern US somewhere. I find it more interesting when I know where the bees are kept. Pollen mar 30 should give you a clue mid Ontario -- Kawartha lakes & northern Durham As to Sahara and Pyrenees bees are native only to the "Old World" My point is that the races of bees are where they are only by luck,chance and fitness last (how many "ice ages"?) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 17:14:11 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mea McNeil Subject: Re: Organic honey is real in Europe In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill Lord wrote: > I am working on a beekeeping project in Eastern Europe in which we have > sponsored organic certification for approximately 2000 beekeepers. Bill, I have read the EU requirements for organic honey, and I seem to remember that an expansive area (a two mile radius or so?) is required to be certified as organic forage. Is that correct? Are your organic beekeepers in areas of organic farming? Mea McNeil -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2006 09:04:00 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Drones above the excluder In-Reply-To: <20060404020221.15468.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Dee Not sure whether we should be using Anarchy as our subject line here. > but have you ever considered reasons for how the ratio > might drastically increase? Yes, but it is not a self perpetuating or a 'snowballing' increase. Because once the 'extra' genes get into the population the pressure is removed. From that point on the level of anarchy will drift back down to natural 'noise' levels. Another factor... We have been talking of anarchy, which brings in a few extra genes via drones, real seed change requires full blown thelytoky which is perhaps as much as a thousand times rarer than anarchy. As with anarchy, thelytoky is not a snowballing increase either (for the same reason). There is some correlation between race and degree of thelytoky observed, but it is not a sharp distinction except in the case of Capensis, where it is considered normal. Thelytoky has been observed in European bees, but as far as I know the 'pedigree' of the colonies concerned was not ascertained (or was not ascertainable). > 3. Constant grafting with rotation of same hives used for > choosen larvae material. I'm not saying this can't happen, but the beekeeper would have to put in a great deal of effort in screening out drones from other areas for it to become much of a problem. It is a problem that can surface from time to time particularly with Italian bees, but although a great many bees in USA are described as Italian, the likelihood of a high degree of racial purity is low. Excessive inbreeding can only happen if the number of alleles is limited, what causes the small numbers to be available is a different matter. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 12:15:42 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: How many colonies to a yard? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I'm interested to hear how other beekeepers determine the number of colonies to place in one yard. I average 12-20 but am considering boosting some prime yards to 30 or more. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 19:35:12 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Drones above the excluder In-Reply-To: <44322870.90201@lineone.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dave writes: is not a self perpetuating Reply: Why is it not? Seems to be a perfectly logical backup reproduction system to me. Just because beekeepers have been taught now for a little over 100 years to destroy and get rid of laying worker hives, does not mean that it is not self perpetuating. In fact, Dave might be interesting to see whether or not it is a carry over trait or one still evolving on the evolutionary chain. Which do you think it is? Dave continues: Because once the 'extra' genes get into the population the pressure is removed. From that point on the level of anarchy will drift back down to natural 'noise' levels. Reply: Would think this would only apply to climatic circumstances curently at hand as to whether or not the positive or a more recessive side is seen, coming and going as needed, thinking straight bees and non-man interference. But with what you write here too I would like to say, I feel that beekeepers interrupt this trait more than many think by willful distruction of laying workers when found, so the pressure is indeed removed artificially, rather then letting Nature take her course, thereby creating an artificial reduction of the trait to what man considers back down to 'natural' noise levels. Dave continues: Another factor... We have been talking of anarchy, which brings in a few extra genes via drones, real seed change requires full blown thelytoky which is perhaps as much as a thousand times rarer than anarchy. Reply: Yep, agree here, but after 100 years of destroying such traits how would you know what are natural levels vs unnatural ones? And for what....to protect pedigree bees for profit? Now falling apart? Like Rome falling again as economics and bees are linked and always have been. Dave writes: except in the case of Capensis, where it is considered normal. Reply: Somehow I disagree here. But then we are entitled to opinions aren't we. Dave continues: the 'pedigree' of the colonies concerned was not ascertained (or was not ascertainable). Reply: Again disagree, but then I still have my copies of archives of USDA experiments of years ago stating various races trait found in. Also went into the drone side too if I remember right. Respectfull submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 23:24:42 -0500 Reply-To: scot.mcpherson@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot Mc Pherson Organization: The Mc Pherson Family Honey Farms Subject: Re: How many colonies to a yard? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Depending on circumstances, a 'yard' can contain between 50-100 colonies before the colonies begin to compete with each other for nectar and pollen sources (water too in some cases like the desert). When you first plop down a new yard you wish to develop into a production yard, I think its best to put down between 20-30. Then each year you can increase that yard from the colonies already there. Just bring new equipment and do splits at the right times. By developing your yards slowly, you can keep production in your colonies high and increase the output of the forage around by providing a gradually increasing pollonator population. There are beekeepers in the deserts who have developed the forage by placing bees and increasing yard size slowly to be able to support 50 beehives per location. We are talking desert here. In subtropical florida, you can plop down 100 beehives at a shot and probably do just fine unless you are on one of the barrier islands. In the plains states, so long as you are in a variable area like the edges of town, you can probably put down 50-75 beehives at a shot and develop the land to more than 100 per yard. In all cases its different, but increasing from 20 to 30 beehives should be excellent so long as they aren't within competing range of too many other yards. -- Scot Mc Pherson The Mc Pherson Family Honey Farms Davenport, Iowa USA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 09:51:43 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Drones above the excluder In-Reply-To: <20060407023512.26124.qmail@web51613.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Dee > is not a self perpetuating > > Reply: > Why is it not? Seems to be a perfectly logical backup I should re-phrase that and say that it will perpetuate at normal background level, but not escalate. Pressure is required for an increase in such behaviour, as soon as the pressure is released, by attaining the required diversity, the increase subsides (watered down). > feel that beekeepers interrupt this trait more than many > think by willful distruction of laying workers when found, I don't think that this is particularly true as any reduction in anarchy would be built back up until it hovers around the natural background level, because there would also be less 'policing' activity required from workers. The background level being an equilibrium between anarchy and policing. > And for what....to protect pedigree bees > for profit? I see this differently... Profit is not the motive, the preservation of pedigree bees allows future generations to re hybridise as they think fit, if you let all bees become just a mish/mash of interbred mongrels, you have a more difficult time analysing and separating out any traits that you may wish to enhance. > the 'pedigree' of the colonies concerned was not > ascertained (or was not ascertainable). > > Reply: > Again disagree, but then I still have my copies of archives > of USDA experiments of years ago stating various races > trait found in. I was not referring to the USDA experiments, but those carried out in Europe, which are buried somewhere in my filing system :-) Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 09:39:40 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: Review of Honey as Wound Dressing Now Online MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Healing Honey: The Sweet Evidence Revealed SAGE Journal provides support for the use of honey as a wound dressing (Thousand Oaks, CA, USA – April 6,2006) Substantial evidence demonstrates that honey, one of the oldest healing remedies known to medicine, produces effective results when used as a wound dressing. A review article in the most recent issue of SAGE Publications' International Journal of Lower Extremity Wounds summarizes the data. Scientists performed 22 trials involving 2,062 patients treated with honey, as well as an additional 16 trials that were performed on experimental animals… For more information, see: www.apitherapynews.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info ---