From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 10:56:14 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-86.2 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,AWL, MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,NO_OBLIGATION,SARE_FRAUD_X3,SPF_HELO_PASS, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59508483B4 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:52:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SFhrpU016524 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:52:19 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:52:16 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0701D" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 162344 Lines: 3838 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2007 22:10:04 -0700 Reply-To: allen dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: Are Supplements Good for Bees? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > keeping the varroa under control is not hard if one is willing to change > the combs to do it Keeping varroa under control is only a tiny part of the problem, and changing combs is not always necessary, except where combs have become contaminated due to disease, age or pesticide applications. Keeping varroa under control is easily accomplished *many* different ways. The real problem is keeping varroa under control while making a living producing commercial amounts of honey, pollinating crops and operating in many diverse areas where other beekeepers--possibly with other agendas and schedules--are keeping bees as well. The demands of commercial beekeeping are very different from those on hobbyists and those who make their money in other ways than soley from beekeeping. These demands may conflict with varroa control requirements and result in tough, even impossible, choices. > away from the upsizing of the past 100 years. We have been over this and over this. There has been *no* universal upsizing of bees in the Americas. > It would also help with contamination problems Agreed. Changing combs and eliminating old wax is advisable in cases where pesticides have been used in hives. > and problems of not accepted feeds as talked about on the list here. Not sure what ' not accepted feeds ' means, so cannot comment allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 09:34:52 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Griggs Mike Subject: fungus/mold/yeast Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If anyone either works in a biology lab or remembers the classic high school experiment where a nutrient rich media is exposed to the air for a brief time and incubated you will realize--we are not alone! Fungi are everywhere! This is hugely diverse group including toadstools, yeasts & mold--and now DNA techniques are providing insight such that nosema formerly a spore forming protozoan should more likely be classified as a fungus as well. Not a big surprise to some. I work in a group that studies fungal pathogens of insects (entomopathogens) . Down the hall is the ARSEF culture collection with 8000 entomopathogens in liquid nitrogen. This is the largest collection of insect pathogenic fungi in the world. The collection consists of fungi thought to kill insects. At least most are thought to kill insects. Some fungi do kill, some are weakly infectious and others may only grow on recently dead (or dying) insects. Much of the fine details on many, many collected species are really unknown & untested. Two insect pathogens, Beauveria bassiana (Bb) and Metarhizium anisoplia (Ma), are very common soil inhabitants and can be found almost everywhere. There are commercial products made from these fungi so that they can be sprayed much like any insecticide. The formulation of fungi as insecticides are commonly called mycoinsecticides. Note that there are many other species in the genus of Beauveria and Metarhizium. It is mind boggling the numbers & niches that fungi inhabit. Other fungi in these genus are also found in soil, under bark, in detritus, and really anywhere there is nitrogen & starch (or sugar), as well as other hyphomycete fungi; think bread mold & mildew. These are common contaminants as you are probably aware. There is competition among fungi for nutrients and many fungi have evolved the secretion of secondary metabolites that inhibit other species so that the first colony on a newly found nutrient source gets first dibs, that is part of the colors & clonal patching that you often see in moldy areas. Fungus is everywhere; the smell of those old ABJ magazines stored in the cellar (where it is a little moist) is due to the growth of mold. Probably this is not the spot to ask if anyone would sell me their ABJ issues from July 04-Feb 05--But I'll ask anyhow as I'm trying to complete all of George Ayers articles on honey plants & missed those issues. Anyhow with the above background you can see that if you stick a highly nutritive media in a colony of bees, add cool damp conditions and you will see mold. There is mold spores on the bottom board on old comb etc which can get started particularly when colonies are weak, wet or cannot cover everything. It always amazes me to see how little does grow given the amount of spores in the environment. I think the only reason that more does not grow on pollen patties is that the bees consume it first. I know I find lots of fungus in an insects alimentary tract. I bet cultures grown from pollen patties of various age would have an enormous number of species if care was given to separate out the competing strains. I recently read an abstract somewhere on the honeybee genome project that looked at the genes usually responsible for insect immune system development/action. The number was found to be greatly reduced. They hypothesized that perhaps this was why honeybees were reliant on propolis as an extension to a minimalist immune system. It will be interesting to see what else comes from the genome project. So to conclude this ramble--there are a huge number of fungi, the soil is a reservoir, some can actively infect insects, others infect only weakened or diseased insects, and some utilize the nutrients in dead insects. Many of these fungi are present everywhere awaiting the opportunity to exploit a nutrient source when conditions of appropriate moisture and temperature are reached. It is amazing how little fungus that we see in our hives considering! Mike Griggs -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 06:35:52 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: K&W Jarrett Subject: Re: Are Supplements Good for Bees? Comments: To: allen dick MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen wrote; > Yes. These are similar to the ones Andy sent, showing the results of > feeding supplement, but he had frames full of brood pulled out and leaned > up against. I may still have the pictures on my site. Just haven't had > time www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- Allen, I will pull some brood out today, there has been lately about 4-6 frames of capped brood. I which I had a better handle on this computer, because I suck at this part, I'm as slow as a two legged horse. Thanks again for posting those pics. Keith Jarrett -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 08:50:57 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jim Young Subject: Re: Are Supplements Good for Bees? (Varroa Control) In-Reply-To: <006b01c73db6$de456320$a4a7ff04@wendyf10934cd0> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Keith Jarrett wrote: >I know successful second-third-and fourth generation keepers that >cant keep varroa under control. Keith, would you consider discussing your program for keeping varroa under control? Thanks for taking the time to discuss your program for feeding pollen patties. Jim Young Oklahoma -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 15:13:36 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Honey bee die-off and the upcoming almond bloom. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Is the massive honey bee die-off in the 16 states we are hearing about going to cause a major colony shortage for the upcoming almond bloom in California? What will be the reduction (%) in the expected colony numbers due to the die-off? Waldemar Long Island, NY -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 10:07:08 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?dennis_vanEngelsdorp?= Subject: Past PA State Apiairist: Jim Steinhauer Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit It is with deep regret that I share the news of Jim Steinhauer's passing. Jim died, surrounded by the love of family, on Friday January 19th 2007. Jim fought his brief battle with brain cancer in the way all who knew him would expect: with grace, dignity, and a determination that each day should be lived to its fullest. Jim's death is a painful loss to the beekeeping industry which he served as Pennsylvania's State Apiary Inspector for nearly 30 years. Many, many beekeepers had the honor to count Jim as a mentor, confidant, and friend. Jim's laugh, his gentle strength, and his pragmatic and sage wisdom will be sorely missed. Condolence can be sent to: ROSE Steinhauer 3380 ARMSTRONG VLY ROAD HALIFAX PA 17032 Information regarding memorial services will be posted at the PSBA web (http://www.pastatebeekeepers.org/) site as it becomes available. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 10:51:46 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: (no subject) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Waldemar asks: <> Wish I had the answer, one of the reasons we're asking beekeepers to fill out the survey _www.beesurvey.com_ (http://www.beesurvey.com) . Obviously, almond growers, beekeepers are asking that question. Is the die-off large scale - yes. I'd estimate 40-60% of colonies for some of the large migratory beekeepers in Florida, 80% for one in Oklahoma. For individual beekeepers, we've had losses of 1,000 - 6,000 colonies, with rumors of a loss of 12,000 colonies in a northerneastern state by one beekeeper, last spring. The syndrome has been seen in 16 states, fortunately not all at one time. Some of these were in the spring or mid-summer or early fall, with some chance of recovery by surviving colonies. That said, we know its showing up in California - a truckload here, a yard there, etc. Most worrisome, every beekeeper who has contacted us, says he/she knows of several others with the problem -- but they're not reporting it. So, total losses for U.S. in 2006 -- probably tens of thousands. Will this impact the 500,000+ needed for almonds? All depends on what percentage of the lost colonies migrate and when losses occurred and where. I know that several large beekeepers from eastern and some southern states aren't going to almonds this year, or will only be sending a fraction of the bees that normally move. Will news of the losses cause other, more fortunate beekeepers to fill in for any losses -- we'd hope so. Jerry -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 10:02:47 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Charles Harper Subject: Russian Breeder Association In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20070122083541.0253f708@sbcglobal.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Beekeeper: A group of beekeepers interested in forming a Russian Queen Breeders Association met in Phoenix during the American Honey Producers Association meeting. Agenda items included: 1. A report on the status of the incorporation process. Papers have been filed to incorporate the association as a non-profit organization in the state of Iowa. Final establishment awaits approval of the non-profit status. Until this approval the association cannot be involved in funds in any way. However, we can precede to create our organization and begin to function as an organization. 2. A report on the constitution and by laws in the incorporation documents. If you are interested in seeing a copy of these documents I will send you copies. 3. A discussion of categories of membership and other aspects of the association. Several suggestions were made. Full members will be called "cooperators" and will commit to a share of the breeding, propagation and selection of the stock. It was suggested that others can work with the cooperators, helping them with especially stock evaluation and selection. Cooperators would be identified as members of the association and could advertise this as they market queens. Cooperators have no obligation to sell queens. They can participate in the program and make queens for themselves or not make queens beyond the demands of the program. There needs to be a lot of discussion here. Will the organization sell breeder queens to people that are not cooperators? Under what conditions? 4. A discussion of the mechanics of the breeding and propagation of the stock and its lines that will include what resources members will need to have and what they will need to get from other members to do their share of the breeding and propagation. Actual mechanics depends upon how many cooperators we have. Eighteen or more would be ideal. However, the program can be done with fewer. If we have eighteen, it was suggested that each cooperator produce 60 queens of each of two stocks each year, place them in yards for selection, pick the best two or three from each line and propagate again for the next year. In addition each cooperator would send every other cooperator two queens from each line. These queens will serve as drone sources and grafting sources for the next year. Of course, each cooperator will also receive queens for these purposes from all other cooperators. The exact details can be developed when we know how many cooperators will form the association. 5. A discussion of the associations' budget. The costs of incorporation, the costs of membership, expected costs of the association. Generally, only a few expected costs were identified. The cost of incorporation, rooms for meetings, some office things like postage and very little else was identified. We might want to have only minimal dues after we share in the costs of incorporation which will not be excessive. The next step is for potential cooperators to have a conference call. The purpose of the call is to provide more information and to identify cooperators. With a list of cooperators, Dr. Rinderer and his staff can make a plan about stock distribution to cooperators and provide technical assistance concerning selection procedures and colony evaluations. It will take some time for the complete transfer of stock to our association. It will also take some time for all cooperators to be comfortable with what they are doing. The Baton Rouge bee lab has assured me that they will advise us through the transition until we have a fully working program. Thereafter, they are still willing to advise but I suspect we will not require much help after we are fully up and running. As a starting point, I suggest that we meet by conference call on February 7, 2007 at 1:00 PM CST. Please let me know of your availability for this proposed call. Evidently the USDA has some conference service that we will be using. You will be given a phone number and a code. When you dial the number you will be asked for a code. When you give it you will be joined to the correct conference call. Please let me know of your availability for February 7 and also the 6th and the 8th at 1:00 PM. When I have gotten commitments for the call I will confirm with everyone and provide them with the numbers and codes. Sincerely yours, -- Harper's Honey Farm Charlie labeeman@russianbreeder.com Ph# 337 298 6261 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 09:59:40 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Organization: Randy Oliver Subject: Re: fungus/mold/yeast with Winter Humidity MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Keith said > I start feeding pollen sub (brewers yeast, 15% bee pollen and 77% solids > sugar syrup) in first of sept, One thing to note is that Keith does not feed soy. My experience in Calif confirms what Keith says. In our California dry summers, bees supplemented with major brewers yeast/pollen supplement from late summer on far outperform those bees that don't get help. Randy Oliver -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 10:08:08 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Organization: Randy Oliver Subject: Re: Are Supplements Good for Bees? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I was checking last week on Torula yeast. It was recommended years ago by Christine Peng, and I used it at the time. I don't see it offered by bee suppliers any more. I Googled it, and found that it is made nowadays from wood waste sugars on a large scale, and sold as a flovor enhance, and human and animal food. Does anyone know why beekeepers don't appear to be using it any more? Randy Oliver -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 18:17:14 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Almonds / bee die-off... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Thanks, Jerry. >>Some of these were in the spring or mid-summer or early fall, with some chance of recovery by surviving colonies. <...> So, total losses for U.S. in 2006 -- probably tens of thousands. Will this impact the 500,000+ needed for almonds? I just remember how California inspectors graded the colonies last year. No weak colony was accepted into the groves at the agreed (premium) price. I can imagine a run up in prices as fewer US beekeepers will have sufficient colonies to offer. Perhaps, faced with a shortage, California will relax their grading policies or push to open up the borders to Canadian and Mexican beekeepers. It may certainly be different this year. Waldemar (who has way too few colonies to even consider moving to them to almonds :) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 10:20:12 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Organization: Randy Oliver Subject: Re: Honey bee die-off and the upcoming almond bloom. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit . Is the massive honey bee die-off in the 16 states we are hearing about going to cause a major colony shortage for the upcoming almond bloom in California? Hi Waldemar, I checked with several brokers this weekend. Die off hasn't made any noticable impact here yet. There is a "promised" surplus of bees in Calif right now. Many of us are surprised. However, many beekeepers dropped their bees off here some time ago, and left them in the freezing Valley. As they return this week to start filling their contracts, they may be surprised by the condition of their colonies. The brokers are guessing that a shortage may well develop. We're already starting to hear of beekeepers looking for bees to make up their contracts. Randy Oliver -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 15:04:21 -0500 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Are Supplements Good for Bees? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > We have been over this and over this. There has been *no* universal > upsizing of bees in the Americas. Perhaps I missed the announcement of some sort of compelling proof in support of Allen's statement, if so, I'd love to hear about it. I do know that Ohio State University has a bee museum at the OARDC facility in Wooster Ohio, and this museum houses several very old foundation mills. I did not take measurements from these mills myself, but I asked Dave Heilman (who, until budget cutbacks, worked for Jim Tew) for access to these mills for taking measurement several years ago. Dave told me that I need not bother, that he had taken measurements, and they clearly were mills designed to make smaller-celled foundation than the current type of foundation offered for sale by the major vendors. I plan on going to the Tri-County meeting this March, which is held at the OARDC facility, so if there is any doubt on this point, I will be happy to take a micrometer, and a digital camera to measure any dimensions anyone wants to specify. (I realize that there was some debate on even how to measure cells "properly", so I'd rather hear from others as to how they'd like it done. E-mail me.) I'm not making any claims about "small-cell bees" here, I'm just pointing out that actual hardware of well-known pedigree and age is available for inspection, and echoing what a reliable person told me about his measurements. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 12:10:34 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Organization: Randy Oliver Subject: Re: Almonds / bee die-off... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Walemar said: >>>I can imagine a run up in prices as fewer US beekeepers will have sufficient colonies to offer. We're facing major grower resistance to prices. Most can handle the $125 price for strong colonies. Some willingly pay $150. I'm getting $165 for 11 framers. It all depends upon the price of nuts. Growers are ripping out orchards that aren't making money, and pollination prices are the tipping point for some! The growers are a deep pocket, but not limitlessly deep. We Calif beeks are looking to work with the growers and maintain long-term contracts. Many long-term contracts were broken this year, due to out of state competition. Supply and demand will determine how much the growers can afford (and are willing to) pay, and from the beeks perspective, how much it costs to produce strong colonies to meet demand. >>> Perhaps, faced with a shortage, California will relax their grading policies or push to open up the borders to Canadian and Mexican beekeepers. "California" doesn't have a grading policy--individual orchardists do. They need "x" number of bees flying to pollinate the crop. "x" is determined by grading. Farmers don't want to throw their hard-earned money away, any more than a beekeeper would accept 25 pounds of pollen supplement when he pays for a 50-pound sack! Mexican beeks would bring in AHB's next to farmhouses. Canadian bees would require the Canadians to reciprocally accept US bees into the Peace River Valley. Neither is likely to happen. Randy Oliver -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 16:29:58 -0700 Reply-To: allen dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Is Foundation Good For Bees? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> We have been over this and over this. There has been *no* universal >> upsizing of bees in the Americas. > > Perhaps I missed the announcement of some sort of compelling proof > in support of Allen's statement, if so, I'd love to hear about it. The key words are, "universal", "of bees", and "Americas" (plural). If you understand these words, and can parse what I said, little proof should be requiired. On the other hand a proof of universal and enduring upsizing of bees, even in the U.S. alone, is not at hand--AFAIK, and I have been looking. We all know that foundation has been made in a range of sizes in various places and for various purposes. We all lknow some scientists tried upsizing bees by various means. We all know that much commercial foundation is larger than some of the cells some bees would build if left to their devices. What we don't know is that these efforts have had much--or any--effect. Moreover, we all know that bees are smuggled here and there around the world and also move on their own. And, we know that the USDA has imported some as well--several times in relatively recent history. Going furrther, there are many feral and primitive hives throughout the Americas, including areas adjacent to the U.S. southern border.. The bees now moving in and established in many Southern US areas have migrated up to these areas, and they have been feral for portions of the trip. Sure, foundation has been upsized and downsized and every-which sized, but the bees? We have all kinds scattered around the U.S. from various sources and importations. Has any one effort had lasting effects? Someone, tell us how that can be. Is the most popular current foundation size optimal? Is one better than another? Is *any* foundation good for bees? Is *any* foundation good for the beekeeper? My opinion is in the archives. allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 16:38:14 -0700 Reply-To: allen dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: Are Supplements Good for Bees? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I was checking last week on Torula yeast. It was recommended years ago by > Christine Peng, and I used it at the time. I don't see it offered by bee > suppliers any more. I have a sample in my hand. The broker is L.B. Tackabery Co. P.O. Box 2291 Oakhurst CA 93644 559-683-8472 800-245-5731 Let me know if you buy some and it proves out to be as good as what you have been using. (The thing about diet ingredients is that it is wise to test them a while before committing). Also, the ingredients must be FRESH. That's why many buy direct from companies that move a lot of product, like Global or Mann Lake, companies that have many large-scale long-term satisfied beekeeping customers, rather than feed stores or small suppliers where a product like yeast may sit for months--or years waiting for a buyer, or may not be suited for bees. allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 16:32:54 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: K&W Jarrett Subject: Re: Are Supplements Good for Bees? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Randy wrote; >I was checking last week on Torula yeast. It was recommended years ago by > Christine Peng, Randy, I have been looking for it as well.All the large breeders, Strachan and such use to feed it, then it disappeared? Keith Jarrett -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 18:06:02 -0700 Reply-To: allen dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: fungus/mold/yeast MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Anyhow with the above background you can see that if you stick a highly > nutritive media in a colony of bees, add cool damp conditions and you > will see mold. I wonder how much is known about the beneficial or adverse effects of these organisms on bee bread? > There is mold spores on the bottom board on old comb etc which can get > started particularly when colonies are weak, wet or cannot cover > everything. I had this in wintering, and never noticed any adverse effects. > I bet cultures grown from pollen patties of various age would have an > enormous number of species if care was given to separate out the competing > strains. Any guesses whether they are good or bad or both. Seems to me that Andy figured supplement was better after it fermented a bit. See http://tinyurl.com/2jg5nf The archives!... allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 18:44:15 -0700 Reply-To: allen dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: Are Supplements Good for Bees? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I will pull some brood out today, there has been lately about 4-6 > frames of capped brood. The pictures were received and are now at http://www.honeybeeworld.com/misc/pollen/default.htm#Keith The picture from Andy that I was looking for is right above it at http://www.honeybeeworld.com/misc/pollen/default.htm#Andy allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 08:30:31 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Griggs Mike Subject: Re: more fungus/mold/yeast In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen posed several more questions about fungus 01 I wonder how much is known about the beneficial or adverse effects of these organisms on bee bread? Probably little is know in relation to the effect on bees. Some are probably toxin producers & others may produce antibiotic-like compounds. Aflatoxin is a secondary metabolite of a fungus, penicillin of course is an antibiotic. I'd have to do a literature search on others a how they might affect bee nutrition if in fact there is something out there. o2 I had this in wintering (mold?) , and never noticed any adverse effects. I don't know. But I could speculate that some toxins produced might be harmful while others might have a bactericidal effect & pose a slightly beneficial effect on the gut of a bee. This could be a Phd dissertation--growing & testing the effect of various fungi on nurse bees. 03 Any guesses whether they are good or bad or both. Seems to me that Andy figured supplement was better after it fermented a bit. Many insects are attracted to alcohol--I've seen bees on rotting fruit--wonder if it is a feeding stimulant--or if the yeast is of nutrient value. I'd do not know--wonder if some of the people at companies formulating honeybee diets might have an answer to this. Its interesting that a number of fungal metabolic products are being studied for pharmacological uses. A mold that produces the immunosuppressant cyclosporin, which is used to suppress rejection in organ transplants is from the fungus Tolypocladium inflatum. There are researchers looking at other novel products from fungi. Paul Staments of Magic Mushroom fame has redirected some of his fortune toward finding anticancer products from various fungi, with good success. It would be ignorant to believe that they have no effect--look at the various nectars, sugars, old honey--& how these affect the digestive track, health of bees--but what the effect is I cannot say. Mike -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 16:25:23 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Nicholas S Behrens Subject: For Iowa area Bee-L'ers In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At Iowa State University: Symposium details: February 10: 10am-5pm Molecular Biology Bldg/Iowa State University keynote speaker: Claire Kremen (UC Berkeley) The keynote talk will be at 1pm and is entitled: From Science to Action: where do we stand on pollinator conservation (The keynote speaker may be of interest to some). If you need directions or more information respond directly to me, nbehr@iastate.edu, with the subject of Bee-L and ICB. Nick Behrens Senior Entomology Iowa State University. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 08:12:19 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Grant Gillard Subject: Honey Finder (or something like that) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit My computer is getting about as absent-minded as I am. I'm trying to search for the list (sorted by state, if I remember) of beekeepers selling large quantities of bulk honey in drums and pails. I thought it was called, "Honey Finder," but that search doesn't get me where I think I want to go. Anyone know what I'm trying to find? Grant Jackson, MO --------------------------------- Any questions? Get answers on any topic at Yahoo! Answers. Try it now. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 16:58:59 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Honey Finder (or something like that) In-Reply-To: <842826.20518.qm@web31613.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Try NHB honey locator Regards, Dee A. Lusby ____________________________________________________________________________________ Bored stiff? Loosen up... Download and play hundreds of games for free on Yahoo! Games. http://games.yahoo.com/games/front -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 19:41:14 -0600 Reply-To: Tim Tucker Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Tucker Subject: Honey Finder Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For Grant Gillard, I think what you are trying to get to is www.honeylocator.com, which is part of the National Honey Boards website at www.honey.com It gives you the type of honey that you are looking for and the state you want to find it in. There are several in Missouri. Hope that helps. Tim Tucker -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 21:40:41 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Illegal use of pesticide in bee hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, >"I'm not surprised by the fluvalinate or tactic violation but OA.". Tactic is amatraz and not fluvalinate. >All I can say is good luck to MDA in finding any " evidence" of the OA dribble technique. If Big Brother can find OA on a shop towel why would you think they could not find OA on a wood frame or wax? Enforcement of illegal use of pesticides rests solely with bee inspectors. Some look the other way and some don't. Some states don't even have a bee inspection service ( Arizona) and others (Illinois) want migratory beekeepers to be inspected and get a permit to move from one county to the other . Some beekeepers jump through all the hoops and some jump over all the hoops and go all over the U.S. without ever being inspected or getting a permit. U.S. beekeeping is different than most of the world. I just returned from a month in Texas. Big place. I drove south for sixty miles in one area without seeing a service station. The reason is the King Ranch owned the property on both sides of the road. The ranch controls over a million acres of land. You could put all the hives in the U.S. on King Ranch and still only get a couple hives per acre. King Ranch controls more land than many countries and more land than the state of Rhode Island. Many other large ranches in Texas. King Ranch (under another name) is the largest producer of citrus in Florida ( fourth in world citrus production) and is beekeeper friendly. Bob -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 08:23:22 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: Illegal use of pesticide in bee hives Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Wed, 24 Jan 2007 21:40:41 -0600, Bob Harrison wrote: >Enforcement of illegal use of pesticides rests solely with bee inspectors. >Some look the other way and some don't. It is certainly not part of the job of NYS bee inspectors. They see this stuff all the time, but do not report on it. They are mandated to control bee diseases, not chemical applications. I always tell beekeepers that it is illegal to apply unapproved chems or to apply approved ones incorrectly. And if they are caught with contaminated honey it will be *their problem*. Well, not just their problem because news stories about illegal chemicals in honey hurts the whole industry. And don't get me wrong, I think oxalic acid treatment should be approved and IF it was I would recommend it. But until then, I would stick to approved chems (or no chems). pb -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 14:58:06 +0100 Reply-To: olda.vancata@quicknet.se Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Olda Vancata Subject: Re: Illegal use of pesticide in bee hives In-Reply-To: > I think oxalic acid treatment should be approved and IF it was I would > recommend it. Oxalic acid is hurting (weakening) bees and open a gate for secondary diseases ( for instance - virus). \vov -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 09:36:21 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Walter Zimmermann Subject: Re: Illegal use of pesticide in bee hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Oxalic acid is hurting (weakening) bees and open a gate for secondary >diseases ( for instance - virus). >\vov so where is this documented? here in Ontario it works like a charm and is highly recommended Walter -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 14:52:56 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Illegal use of pesticide in bee hives Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>Oxalic acid is hurting (weakening) bees and open a gate for secondary diseases ( for instance - virus). Can you provide some references? As prescribed, a weak solution of OA is used. Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 16:13:49 +0100 Reply-To: olda.vancata@quicknet.se Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Olda Vancata Subject: Re: Illegal use of pesticide in bee hives In-Reply-To: > >Oxalic acid is hurting (weakening) bees and open a gate for secondary > > diseases ( for instance - virus). > > so where is this documented? Apidologie 35 (2004) 453-460 DOI: 10.1051/apido:2004037 Cell death in honeybee (Apis mellifera) larvae treated with oxalic or formic acid Ales Gregorca, Azra Pogacnika and Ivor D. Bowenb a Veterinary Faculty of the University of Ljubljana, Gerbiceva 60, 1000 Ljubljana, Slovenia b Cardiff School of Biosciences, Preclinical Building, Cardiff University, PO Box 911, Cardiff, CF10 3US, UK Abstract - The effects of oxalic (OA) and formic acids (FA) on honeybee larvae in colonies were assessed and evaluated. Cell death was detected by the TUNEL technique for DNA labelling. In 3- and 5- day-old larvae exposed to OA, cell death was found in 25% of midgut epithelial cells 5 h after the treatment, using an "In situ cell death detection kit, AP" (Roche). The level of cell death increased to 70% by the 21st hour and the morphology of the epithelium remained unchanged. Fifty hours after the application, cell death was established in 18% of the epithelial cells of the 3-day-old larvae and had increased to 82% in the 5-day-old larvae. A "DeadEnd" apoptosis detection kit (Promega) showed sporadic cell death mainly in the larval fat body 5 h after treatment. Twenty-one hours after the OA application cell death was found in 4% of the larval midgut epithelial cells. Evaporated formic acid induced extensive apoptotic cell death in the peripheral, cuticular and subcuticular tissues that preceded the cell death of the entire larval body. > here in Ontario it works like a charm and is highly recommended You probably don't have viruses aroud. All beekeepers who lost bees probably because of virus - (50 - 100%) in som areas in Sweden used oxalic acid. No beekeepers using Apistan were affected with big losses. \vov -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 09:38:22 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Illegal use of pesticide in bee hives Comments: To: olda.vancata@QUICKNET.SE MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, >Oxalic acid is hurting (weakening) bees and open a gate for secondary diseases ( for instance - virus). The above subject about acids has come up in beekeeping circles. Does the use of both OA & formic acid shorten bees lives or break down immune systems? To my knowledge research on the subject has never been done. Research on the above has been suggested similar to the research done in recent fructose/sucrose research ( Dr. Pamela Gregory , Westlaco Bee Lab, presented at the AHPA & ABF conventions and submitted for publication) to confirm bees live longer when fed sucrose than fructose. Her work was a repeat of research done by the USDA-ARS in 1974 by Roy Barker & Yolanda Lehner in the Tucson Bee lab and confirmed the earlier results. I was so interested in Dr. Gregory's research after hearing both her presentations at the American Beekeeping Federation convention in Austin, Texas I traveled to Westlaco and spent the day with Dr. Gregory ,looking at her research and tools used in her experiments. >From memory, notes, papers and photo's I have taken I believe I can duplicate her experiments in Missouri and test longevity in honey bees ( with controls) in a variety of conditions. bob -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 17:04:02 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Illegal use of pesticide in bee hives Comments: To: olda.vancata@QUICKNET.SE Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>Cell death in honeybee (Apis mellifera) larvae treated with oxalic or formic acid Ales Gregorca, Azra Pogacnika and Ivor D. Bowenb Does the paper talk about any harm to adult bees? The reason I ask is because the OA trickle is done when the colonies are broodless. Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 17:54:52 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ruary Rudd Subject: Re: Illegal use of pesticide in bee hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit But we have all been told that oxalic acid should be used when the colony is in a broodless condition. Therefore this reseach as it deals with the effect of oxalic acid on LARVAE has no bearing on the proper use of oxalic acid. Ruary ----- Original Message ----- From: "Olda Vancata" > > Apidologie 35 (2004) 453-460 > DOI: 10.1051/apido:2004037 > > Cell death in honeybee (Apis mellifera) larvae treated with oxalic or > formic acid Ales Gregorca, Azra Pogacnika and Ivor D. Bowenb -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 11:25:59 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Illegal use of pesticide in bee hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Harrison" To: Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2007 11:21 AM Subject: Re: [BEE-L] Illegal use of pesticide in bee hives Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Illegal use of pesticide in bee hives In-Reply-To: <000901c74096$d9e53de0$04bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Oxalic acid is hurting (weakening) bees and open a gate for secondary > > diseases ( for instance - virus). > > It has been shown that OA does harm bees and brood. However the degree of harm depends on the strength of the acid, when applied, and the number of times it is applied. Plus, the bees recover from the treatments when done properly. The second part of the statement, opening a gate for disease, is not a necessary follow up to the first. There are many things at work here and I would be slow to condemn the use of OA. Improper use, late use (after Varroa have done their damage), or a host of other factors can lead to colony problems. It should be noted that OA should be applied when the colony is nearly broodless, so the problems in the article should not apply to proper OA use, especially in Northern areas. It would be nice to hear from someone else in Sweden with good documentation to confirm the use of OA and high losses. I take those kind of statements with a grain of salt unless I know the source and any prejudices involved. Bill Truesdell (who has 175 tons of salt in his bee yard since joining the beelist) Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 11:17:06 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Illegal use of pesticide in bee hives In-Reply-To: <20070125.090423.14831.1757897@webmail38.nyc.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Waldemar: Do you really believe that in treating sideline outfits and commercial outfits that all the hives are broodless and no brood can be found, nor fresh eggs/larvae if looked for? Somehow I have never seen that across the board.....which could be a reason why sedondary diseases flare up with various treatments besides this. As for the apistan mentioned at bottom of recent post with paper showing acids bad, then memory retardants are better to inhibit foraging and clustering, etc. Sincerely, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ ____________________________________________________________________________________ No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started. http://mobile.yahoo.com/mail -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 20:54:01 +0100 Reply-To: olda.vancata@quicknet.se Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Olda Vancata Subject: Re: Illegal use of pesticide in bee hives In-Reply-To: <45B8FAF5.2020104@suscom-maine.net> > It has been shown that OA does harm bees and brood. However the degree > of harm depends on the strength of the acid, when applied, and the > number of times it is applied. > Plus, the bees recover from the treatments when done properly. How long time take this recovery? One sweedish beekeeper comment this a funne way: "advantage with oxalic acit treatment is that bee are not swarming" (because they are so weak - my comment). :-) \vov -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 15:05:20 -0500 Reply-To: allen dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Damage to Bees and/or Brood from Organic Acid Applications? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> >Oxalic acid is hurting (weakening) bees and open a gate for secondary >> > diseases ( for instance - virus). > Apidologie 35 (2004) 453-460 > DOI: 10.1051/apido:2004037 Thanks for bringing this up. These chemicals have been tested and used successfully in Canada without the adverse effects being reported (yet, at least). Can you help us out with some details, if you know them? Specifically. 1. What application methods and doses were used for each acid in the trials? 2. What application methods and doses were used by the Swedish beekeepers who experienced problems? allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 20:34:11 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Illegal use of pesticide in bee hives Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>Do you really believe that in treating sideline outfits and commercial outfits that all the hives are broodless and no brood can be found, nor fresh eggs/larvae if looked for? Somehow I have never seen that across the board..... No, I don't but does it matter? Let me explain. Up here, 'in northern country', colonies go broodless sometime in November or December... except this year. :) I inspected my hives every few days in December and in early January before treating with OA. Every inspection, with one exception, revealed a small cluster of fresh eggs and some very young larvae. This was strange because each time the situation was the same - no capped brood. I think, because the weather kept changing from warm to cold back to warm every few days, the bees were trigged by warm spells to raise brood only to canabalize it during the return of cold weather. The cycle would re- start with the next warm period. When I finally treated with OA in mid-January - I could not wait any longer because fresh pollen started coming in! - each hive had at least fresh eggs again. The OA may have damaged some eggs and young larvae but the amount was insignificant when compared to what the bees had canabalized. >>As for the apistan mentioned at bottom of recent post with paper showing acids bad, then memory retardants are better to inhibit foraging and clustering, etc. Can't speak for apistan (I would not use it in my hives) but I have not seen OA affect clustering or foraging. By the time foraging gets seriously underway in the spring, the winter bees will have raised a new generation and are themselves in a small minority. Waldemar Long Island, NY -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 15:38:52 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Randy_Oliver?= Subject: oxalic Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > > >Oxalic acid is hurting (weakening) bees and open a gate for secondary > > > diseases ( for instance - virus). > > Apidologie 35 (2004) 453-460 I've checked the math in this paper, and the dose is reasonable, .005mg OA per larva,vs .016mg OA theoretical if 3 ml of 3.5% solution per seam is dribbled. Members may also wish to check Apidologie 34:181-188 and 32:127-138 for OA toxicity Oxalic acid is absorbed through bee's cuticle, as well as being ingested. It is not gentle on the bees. I would not overuse it! As far as its use, I wouldn't recommend more than one weak dribble during the broodless period per year, although I have test colonies that are thriving after 3 strong treatments 5 days apart in late summer. It's a trade off, as with all chemicals, of keeping your bees alive, hurting the bees or brood, operator safety, and whether you're contaminating the combs or honey. On most of these points, OA is positive. As far as I'm concerned, ANY chemicals are stopgap measures as we move toward better bee genetics and biotechnical methods. My series of articles in ABJ are moving in that direction, and I will return to this subject of OA problems. Randy Oliver -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 14:12:22 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Illegal use of pesticide in bee hives In-Reply-To: <20070125.123506.21052.1760459@webmail59.nyc.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Waldemar: Did you ever stop to think the small brood patches with fresh eggs/larvae you saw were not canabalized, but bees cleaning up dead young larvae from your treatment making you unable to find it later, since you saw the young brood prior to "treating"? and in doing so, what effect does it have on any nurse bees?.......Effect the gut maybe for digestion problems also? Sincerely, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/features_spam.html -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 01:13:11 +0100 Reply-To: olda.vancata@quicknet.se Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Olda Vancata Subject: oxalic In-Reply-To: OK. Oxalic acid kill the varroa. No doubt about it. But it is not the whole picture! The whole picture must include damaged bees (by OA). Interaction between weakened (by varroa and OA) bees and virus. Remains of OA in the beehive which can be inhaled by beekeeper during spring inspection. This remains can kill the brood long after the treatment (next spring). In addition - varroa must be treated shortly after honey harvest. Waiting för broodless condition means waiting to long with result - damaged winter generation of bees. I addition - tricklig of liquide means cooling down the beehive (evaporation cooling) which can start outburst of nosema or chalkbrood. All this is what I mean with the whole picture. \vov -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 01:21:08 +0100 Reply-To: olda.vancata@quicknet.se Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Olda Vancata Subject: Damage to Bees and/or Brood from Organic Acid Applications? > 2. What application methods and doses were used by the Swedish > beekeepers who experienced problems? Trickling of 20 - 35 ml (depending on size of the beehive) of 3,2 % OA in sugar solution. \vov -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 02:32:16 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?B?QXJpIFNlcHDkbOQ=?= Subject: Re: oxalic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Odla wrote: OK. Oxalic acid kill the varroa. No doubt about it. But it is not the > whole picture! I would definitely say that idea that oxalic acid is very harmful to bees is also not the whole picture. I have been looking the situation in Finland. During 5 past years use of oxalic has risen from about 0 so that last fall almost 80 % of hives ( = 40 000 hives) were treated with it. For many hives it was the only varroa treatment. I have a friend who has treated his bees only with it for 3 years one tricling / year at late fall. His winter losses average for these years less than 5 % and last year he got a 120 kg average crop from his 100 hives. His varroa levels are down to average of 200 / hive before treatment in fall. ( In Finland we have a long broodless period so one treatment is enough for many of us) . When I look the picture in whole country the past two years we have got excellent crops, with national averages that we normally see only once every 10 - 20 years. OK good weather has lot to do, but if oxalic is really harmful, how could this be with 75 - 80 % of hives treated with it ? One explanation to comments about harmful oxalic is misunderstandings about its abilities. If you have a hive with a lot of varroa/ virus at the fall, oxalic is no miracle. If the winter bees have already been damaged in pupal stage by mites they will not live long even when the mites are removed by oxalic. Oxalic in late fall is not a safe for the coming winter but for the winter after that. It is a tool that gives you a very low mite count next spring so that you can in many situations in north go through the summer without any problems and even at next fall have only few hundred mites in hive., which again are easily cleared by oxalic. I know what I say because I have been conduction a study of varroa treatments for 6 years. I have had 13 beekeepers doing the tests with about 150 hives/ year. So at least here in Finland I can say that if you have a lot of mites ( mote than 300) in end of July you must treat with something to protect the developing winter bees for the hive to survive. + use oxalic later. If you have less only oxalic is enough. During the 6 year study 85 % of the hives have come down to mite levels that only need one oxalic treatment. We have not seen any disease outbreaks in the hives in the study. Their overwintering has been much better than national average. And the other beekeepers using oxalic have not reported it othervice. All chemicals are bad to bees at some level. But when used the right way oxalic is not a danger for the well beeing of honeybees. Ari Seppälä Finland -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 12:18:58 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Illegal use of pesticide in bee hives Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>Did you ever stop to think the small brood patches with fresh eggs/larvae you saw were not canabalized, but bees cleaning up dead young larvae from your treatment... This clearly was not the case. I had seen 3-4 cycles of honeybee canabalism (consistant with the atypical changes in outside temperature this winter) from mid-November to mid-January. My treatment took place in mid-January. I use 3.5% OA solution once a year. >>...what effect does it have on any nurse bees?... This would be a good research project. Summer nurse bees are somewhat different in age than winter nurse bees. >>...Effect the gut maybe for digestion problems also? If the 3.5% OA solution gives honey bees a case of indigestion, it seems to be temporary and not lethal. I am not suggesting OA is a honey-sweetened herbal tea... It is a much lesser evil vis-a-vis blood sucking mites and mite-vectored viruses. Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 12:35:33 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: oxalic Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>Oxalic in late fall is not a safe for the coming winter but for the winter after that. This is an excellent point. OA is very effective - from 85% to 100% depending on the study - in eliminating varroa. It's a pleasure to see colonies of vibrant honey bees the following spring. Barring mite re-infestation and perhaps susceptible genetics, these colonies will continue strong until the next fall. That next fall I like to identify the best hives, in terms of honey production and mite tolerance, for queen rearing the following spring. Hopefully, one day I'll be able to either skip the OA treatment or do it every other year. As far as the effectiveness, I believe, if one uses precisely the prescribed method (ie. the 3.5% concentration and 4-5 ml of solution per a full Langstroth bee space) in the broodless period, one consistently approaches a 100% mite kill w/o serious harm to the bees. Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 09:03:42 -0500 Reply-To: allen dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: oxalic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > ...If you have a hive with a lot of varroa/ virus at the fall, oxalic is > no miracle. If the winter bees have already been damaged in pupal stage by > mites they will not live long even when the mites are removed by oxalic... > if you have a lot of mites ( mote than 300) in end of July you must treat > with something to protect the developing winter bees for the hive to > survive. + use oxalic later. The question is what to use in that event, especially when the hives are full of bees and some supers may still be on. Take a look at http://www.reineschapleau.wd1.net/articles/flash.en.html. I have not personally tried Jean-Pierre's methods, but they strike me as elegant. His methods allow for easy, instant, and frequent, varroa monitoring by observing natural mite fall on the paper in the drawer below the screen, plus the means to do fast, minimally invasive formic application with no disturbance of the stack of boxes above the floor, again using the drawer. Moreover, the quick observation feature allows for detecting the colonies that have a problem and treating only them on that round, while skipping the ones that show little drop. A quick glance at the paper in each drawer should tell most beekeepers what they need to know about that particular hive. Treatment, when required, is by squirting a measured dose of formic on the paper. FWIW, I am not recommending treating with formic while supers are on, even in an emergency, but have heard of it being done, and cannot see any hazard to the crop from doing so, since formic is already a natural constituent of honey. For formic, some beekeepers are using the Mite-Away(TM) method. Although manageable at other times of year, Mite-Away treatment would be very awkward and difficult in the circumstances we are discussing here. Additionally, that product is expensive, requires additional hive parts and has proven variable in success, particularly where the weather changes during the long treatment period and results in colony damage or incomplete treatment. Medhat was the original inventor of the Mite-Away technique, and I am not sure he still recommends it. Maybe he will say. On the other hand, the flash method takes place during the hours immediately following application, when weather (temperature) is more predictable. With flash, repeated treatment may be required, but the job is simple and the timing is not critical if the goal is just to knock back varroa levels temporarily. Formic also neutralizes tracheal as an added benefit. The downside is that liquid formic is hazardous, and must be transported and handled appropriately. Emergency equipment (a bucket of fresh clean water) must be kept constantly at hand. Search the extensive discussions in the BEE-L archives about formic safety. (See tagline for URL). The floors, as purchased direct from Chapleau are a little bit fancy and lightweight for heavy commercial migratory use, but a real bargain for those with less demanding service. Many commercial beekeepers are building their own rugged, simplified, palletized versions. allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 09:28:21 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dan&jan Subject: Re: oxalic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>Finland<< I would remind everyone that where you keep bees will have a great effect on bees. I latitude will play into bee behavior due to day length and temperature. Finland like other northern climes have very long summer days while some place like Italy will have considerably shorter days in the SUMMERS. Maybe the longer days allow for more foraging times and recovery days. It all comes down to what is the lesser of the evils--varroa +tracheal mite damage or treatment damage Dan Veilleux in the mountains of NC USA zone 6a -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 09:51:49 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: oxalic In-Reply-To: <001501c74156$3b162b50$6401a8c0@DanJan> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit It all comes down to what is the lesser of the evils--varroa +tracheal mite damage or treatment damage Reply: Or could be compounded/combined damage here, then with artificial feeds and inbreeding thrown in on top for final crashes too! Dee- ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss an email again! Yahoo! Toolbar alerts you the instant new Mail arrives. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 14:32:38 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Adony_Melathopoulos?= Subject: foundation-less combs Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I was reading the latest issue of Beekeepers Quarterly (November) and there was an article on biodynamic beekeeping. I don't know that much about biodynamics, although I tried to read Rudolf Steiner's book on bees and pounded my coffee table too often to be able to finish it. I understand that biodymaic beekeepers use frames but no foundation. I remember Tibor Szabo once talking about running bees on frames that were started with a narrow strip of wax at the top. He said it kind of fast and I don't remember the details. I often drop a frame with a strip of foundation along the top as a way to produce drone brood... I usually get 3/4 of a frame of drone cells. Are there any biodynamic subscribers who can explain to me how you can get bees to draw frames with worker cells without using foundation. On a related note there is a fantastic series of internet movies on skep beekeeping in Germany... very detailed... hours of viewing. The beekeeper featured in the video operates about 1,000 skeps and sells the honey for a gazillion dollars a pound. The techniques used to divide colonies stretch my understanding of bee biology to its limits. Worth watching. Adony -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 14:50:34 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Adony_Melathopoulos?= Subject: Re: foundation-less combs Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The URL on the skep beekeeping videos... this is but one in a series. Their website is somewhat on the fritz but you can find the other videos in the series if you are crafty: http://www.iwf.de/iwf/do/mkat/details.aspx?Signatur=E+2802 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 20:11:06 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "deknow@netzero.net" Subject: Re: foundation-less combs Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit i'm not a biodynamic beekeeper, but i am famillar with the "movement", and i do not use foundation. the reason, i beleive, you see only drone brood in an empty frame is because the bees will naturally produce about 15% drone comb. using foundation (and culling excess) makes this more difficult, and when faced with one empty frame, they will tend produce drone cells. this is where most people give up the idea, assuming that the bees will only produce drone comb if left to their own devices. move that first comb towards the sides, and add another frame...when the bees have the drone comb they want, they will draw worker comb. this may be "too much drone comb" for some beekeepers, but the bees obviously don't agree :) deknow -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 15:49:55 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: SABA Spring Seminar MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The Southern Adirondack Beekeepers Association's 2007 Spring Seminar When: March 24, 2007, 9 A.M. - 5 P.M. Speakers : Tom Seeley: Keynote speaker Nicholas Calderone: Use of Fumigants Against Varroa Mites and News of Africanized Honey Bees Maryann Frazier: Understanding Bee Biology - A Key to Successful Management, and Spring Hive Management; Ann Harman: Making Balms and Lotions, and Selling Value-Added Products - Labels and Legality. Location: The University at Albany, Albany NY 1400 Washington Avenue Albany, NY 12222 LC-1 (Same place as in '03-'06). Cost: $20 Further details: Anne Frey, 518-895-8744 Online brochure at: http://www.adirondackbees.org/dl-docs/2007-03-24-seminar.pdf -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 15:52:20 -0500 Reply-To: allen dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: foundation-less combs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > On a related note there is a fantastic series of internet movies on skep > beekeeping in Germany... very detailed... hours of viewing. The beekeeper > featured in the video operates about 1,000 skeps and sells the honey for a > gazillion dollars a pound. The techniques used to divide colonies stretch > my understanding of bee biology to its limits. Worth watching. Theo Fredricks of Nanaimo worked there as a boy, and leafing through his photo album, sent over by his former co-workers, with him a decade or more ago, convinced me that they way we keep bees here in North America is far from the only way, and probably not the best for many purposes. Banning non-movable comb hives was a turning point in beekeeping and turned us away from selection for resistance toward mechanical and chemical methods of disease management. I still think skeps have their place and could be a good solution for many pollination jobs. Find and watch the movie. If it is anything like what Theo showed me, it will change your thinking forever about our current state of 'progress' in beekeeping. allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 17:03:21 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Eric_Brown?= Subject: Re: foundation-less combs Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>Are there any biodynamic subscribers who >>can explain to me how you can get bees to draw frames with worker cells >>without using foundation. >the bees will naturally produce about 15% drone comb. ... >move that first comb >towards the sides, and add another frame...when the bees have the >drone >comb they want, they will draw worker comb. this may be "too much >drone >comb" for some beekeepers, but the bees obviously don't agree :) I'm not familiar with "biodynamic beekeeping", but I think I can tell you how to get bees to build (worker) combs without foundation. I have kind of a different take, though. In my experience, established hives will produce upwards of 30% drone comb using the above method. I never really found a stopping point, actually. Swarms and nucs are different. Swarms, in my experience, will draw at least six nearly perfect (standard deep) frames of worker brood before building any drone comb, with or without foundation so long as they get started on the right axis. One frame that's already drawn seems to get them started right. I'm used to seeing the seventh or eighth frame, maybe part of each, with drone comb, but then the ninth and tenth frame are normally worker comb again. Nucs, especially in the spring (mid- April to mid-June in the North Carolina foothills), seem to do just as well as swarms if not better. There's really nothing complicated about it: just give them one pre-drawn frame to get them started right. The only catch is the need for nucs, but if you're wanting to keep bees more self- sufficiently, you're going to want nucs anyway, I would think. Eric -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 13:09:11 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: foundation-less combs In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Adony: Are there any biodynamic subscribers who can explain to me how you can get bees to draw frames with worker cells without using foundation. Reply: While I do not use the word biodynamic, considering it being sanctioned for nonusage for general beekeeping, drawing frames with worker cells without foundation is no harder then drawing TBHs top bars with no foundation. Here for foundationless frames even a simple wax bead can be used or slightly angled top bar (affixed into the frame even). Then all that is needed is proper time of year for worker comb building starting out,for the scenario you are in starting the bees (either established colony changeover or new feral swarm and/or package), and proper placement between broodframes thereafter during buildup. Key is knowing the difference in timing for bees wanting to build worker comb vs drone/honeycombs, and how to get around it. Dee- ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a PS3 game guru. Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at Yahoo! Games. http://videogames.yahoo.com/platform?platform=120121 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 22:58:37 -0500 Reply-To: allen dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Cats and Pigeons MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://www.honeybeeworld.com/4dot9/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 04:28:00 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: World Apitherapy Day' Celebrates Health Benefits of Bee Products MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII ‘World Apitherapy Day' Celebrates Health Benefits of Bee Products Annual event marks birth of scientist who studied medicinal use of bee venom (MIAMI, FL, 1/27/2007) – March 30, 2007, will mark the 2nd annual celebration of “World Apitherapy Day," an event designed to enhance international understanding of the therapeutic use and health benefits of bee products. See: www.worldapitherapyday.org Apitherapy is the use of bee hive products such as honey, propolis, bee-collected pollen, beeswax, drone larvae extract, bee venom, and royal jelly to maintain good health and in the treatment of a variety of medical conditions. (Propolis is a resinous substance collected by bees from plants and trees and is used to coat the inside of the beehive and the honeycomb cells with an antiseptic layer. Royal jelly is a substance produced by young worker bees and fed to queens. March 30 was chosen for World Apitherapy Day because it is the birth date of Dr. Philipp Terc (formerly Filip Tertsch), the first scientific researcher to investigate the medical uses of 'apitoxin," or bee venom. Terc was born on March 30, 1844, in Praporiste, Bohemia (Czech Republic). Products announcing the annual World Apitheray Day are now available for purchase online. Shirts, tote bags and posters feature a 16th century woodcut of a beekeeper and "World Apitherapy Day" translated into the official languages of the United Nations – English, Chinese, Spanish, Russian, French, and Arabic. Go to: http://www.cafepress.com/apitherapy All proceeds will go to the non-profit World Apitherapy Network. See: http://beesforlife.org/ For more information about Apitherapy, go to: www.apitherapy.com or www.apitherapy.org The latest news and information about Apitherapy is available at Apitherapy News: www.apitherapynews.com - END – CONTACT: Dr. Moisés Asís, 305-349-1283, E-Mail: moisesasis@comcast.net; Dr. Stefan Stangaciu, E-Mail: drstangaciu@apitherapy.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 09:19:20 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: The History of Movable Combs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Allen Dick wrote: > Banning non-movable comb hives was a turning point in beekeeping and turned > us away from selection for resistance toward mechanical and chemical methods > of disease management. Comment: The invention of the movable comb was the single most important change in beekeeping. It made possible the complete management of the honey bee colony and opened the way to the great understanding of honey bee biology that we now take for granted. Before that it was basically a black box. The banning of non-movable combs was initiated by the need to be able to inspect hives for disease. While many beekeepers attempted to "treat" with various chemicals, most of these treatments failed and burning was the recommended method. The idea of breeding resistant bees appeared very early on. Antibiotics did not appear on the scene until much later. In my opinion, the reason that interest in bee breeding has had its ups and downs is that it is very expensive to develop better strains of bees and the characteristics of these bees rapidly disappear as the bees interbreed with local stock. In order for a breeding program to work, it would have to be undertaken on a national scale, and steps would have to be taken to eradicate the mongrelized local stock. While this has been done in some countries, I doubt if it will happen in the US, where beekeepers seldom agree on anything. * * * Some Historical Background: Many people kept bees in all parts of the territory [Utah]. But, all beekeepers had problems with a disease that would kill an entire hive of bees and spread to other hives. Called foul brood, it killed the young bees while they were still in the comb. A beekeepers organization was needed to rid all the hives of the disease. In March 1892 Professor A. J. Cook of Michigan Agricultural College and beekeeper A. T. Root of Medina, Ohio, came to Salt Lake City to help solve the disease problem. They organized for the territory the Utah Bee-Keepers Association. Oliver B. Huntington was named president and R. T. Rhees secretary. The association asked the territorial legislature to pass a bee inspection law in 1892. It allowed each county to hire inspectors to look at all the beehives and destroy those with foul brood disease. After the law was passed and before the 1893 season started, beekeepers were notified of an April association meeting in Salt Lake City. The beekeepers met in the Brick and Stone Masons Hall over the Western Union Telegraph Office on Main Street. Huntington held several sessions of the beekeepers association on April 10 and 11 to tell beekeepers about the new inspection law, how to get rid of the disease, and how to sell their honey. http://history.utah.gov/ * * * The [Pennsylvania] bee inspection program exists today because in the early 1900's, beekeepers had an epidemic of American Foul Brood (AFB) and they petitioned their state government for help. The first bee law was passed in 1911 but was never effective. It was repealed with the passage of the bee law in 1921 which continues to remain in effect today. http://www.agriculture.state.pa.us/ * * * By 1922-1923 it was said that much of the bee stock in the state was inferior with respect to productivity and resistance to foulbrood and this led to studies at the Experiment Station. European foulbrood disease had assumed such proportions that at the request of the [New Jersey] State Beekeeper's Association, the legislature made a special appropriation for research in methods of combating it. Studies were begun by Ray Hutson and on his resignation in 1931, were continued under the direction of Robert S. Filmer. The investigation was conducted along three main lines: (1) the development of a strain of bees resistant to European and American foulbrood, (2) the breeding of a high-producing strain of bees, and (3) the use of bees in pollination. On special breeding grounds established in the south Jersey pine barrens, Hutson succeeded in developing, by selection and inbreeding a strain of bees which was not only apparently strongly resistant to European foulbrood, but had also an exceptional honey-gathering ability. Shortly after 1930, European foulbrood practically disappeared from New Jersey. Later an attempt was made to develop a strain resistant to American foulbrood, and strains developed in other parts of the country were tested in New Jersey. Chlorine gas was found successful as a disinfectant in the control of American foulbrood In developing a high-producing strain, forty to eighty colonies were maintained in an apiary at Lebanon, New Jersey. Filmer succeeded in developing a high producing strain for New Jersey by crossing inbred lines that had high vigor and excellent honey-producing qualities. In connection with this work extensive knowledge was accumulated on bees' winter requirements for honey and pollen. Work on breeding programs was discontinued at the start of World War II. http://www.rci.rutgers.edu/ * * * Discovery in the mid-1940's that sulfa drugs could control European foulbrood disease ushered in a new era. Some bee inspectors did not initially accept sulfa treatment as valid, but eventually most beekeepers and inspectors realized the economic value of protecting colonies with this chemical treatment. It wasn't long before the practice became widespread, making large-scale commercial beekeeping viable and profitable. The use of sodium sulfathiazole was eventually discontinued however because it didn't work against EFB, and when used for AFB, it left persistent residues in extracted honey. http://maarec.cas.psu.edu/ * * * Many honey bees exhibit hygienic behaviour by cleaning out dead or diseased larvae from their cells (Spivak & Gilliam, 1998). If the bees are very hygienic the only trace of disease might be irregular patterns of empty cells on the brood combs. Hygienic behaviour is an inheritable trait and can easily be tested by killing off brood and then measuring the time it takes the bees to clean out the larval cadavers (Spivak & Reuter, 1998). Consequent breeding of hygienic lines have created bees that show increased resistance to AFB infections. So far, no totally AFB-resistant lines of bees have been bred (Hansen & Brřdsgaard, 1999). -- pb -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 08:54:59 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Cats and Pigeons Comments: To: allen dick MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Allen & All, I like my friend Allen participated in many of those discussions. I believe the subject has been covered except for new information. In the end you need to buy some foundation and try for yourself. After all these years I am installing 25 pounds (as an experiment and in a manor suggested by Dennis Murrel). posted on his website 'Bee Wrangler'. I am tired of Dennis saying I need to try before commenting. I tried a some frames about six years ago sent to me from South Africa ( AHB foundation 4.9mm) and was not impressed with the results. Unlike Allen I have not got pictures. What I dislike about a new approach in beekeeping is the beekeepers which learn about a new approach and then sing the praises before in many cases ever trying. Was true in the early days of bath tub treatments for varroa and also small cell. Example: Last fall I got a phone call saying a Florida Beekeeper was singing the praises of small cell to Florida beekeepers at the Florida State meeting. A large commercial migratory beekeeper. I thought. Wow! He must have tried on a small scale and is so impressed he is changing his outfit. Also what others thought. At the ABF convention he was still singing the praises. Finally I spoke with the beekeeper. Seems he read about small cell on another list. Seems he has never tried the first foundation yet but all his hives are being downsized in spring. I don't know how many hives he runs ( and never ask numbers of hives) but I suspect 4-6 thousand. I hope for his sake he is successful! I like the guy and really do wish success! I learned years ago (the hard way) that putting all your eggs in one basket is dangerous in beekeeping. If the beekeeper is successful and has the same results as the Lusby's then small cell use will take a big jump forward in my opinion. but Will take several years to confirm the results. I think we all have been waiting for a large commercial beekeeper to embrace the Lusby methods. The beekeeper is downsizing in two steps exactly as Dee & Ed did. NOT what I am doing this spring. The beekeeper and I had a nice conversation about small cell and he had his facts right. The only part we were not in agreement on was he said all the combs needed to be 4.9mm and Dennis Murrel and I believe only those in the main brood nest. I did not argue the point as I base my opinion on what Dennis M. has told me from his experience on not on my own experience. I did feel it important to tell the beekeeper that I was testing 175 4.9mm frames in May and the method I was using. Experience trumps book and internet reading in my opinion. If the beekeeper only ends up with a mess and quits halfway through then small cell will take a leap backward. I do look forward to hearing of the results of his huge experiment. Even if he does not see things the Lusby's do he will have changed all his comb to clean comb. If I was in Florida year around I would document the progress for a bee magazine. If a Florida writer wants the job email me and I will send contact information. I do not know if the beekeeper would want the rest of us looking over his shoulder but he might. Many on the list know of the beekeeper I speak of as you have heard of his intentions. Not a secret. bob -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 10:45:24 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Adony_Melathopoulos?= Subject: Re: foundation-less combs Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I appreciate the comments. I do hate wiring frames. I primarily make nucs and it seems like a brilliant idea that if my comb will only be used in brood nests it does not to be reinforced. I am sure my lone customer would be miffed if his nucs were full of drone comb, but you have all convinced me that if I let them draw a lot of comb, I shouldn't get excessive drone comb. I will make a few nucs this spring with a frame of brood, a queen cell and three frames without foundation. I will lay a bead of wax along the top bar, like Dee suggested. I will compare the results to colonies started with three frames of foundation. If I hate wiring, why not use plastic foundation? My primary concern with plastic is its reusability. I was at a friend's place when he was rendering frames. When you render wax foundation frames all you are left with is wires... with plastic there is this warped unusable junk. I have often heard people talk about reusing plastic foundation by steaming off the old comb and then putting them back into colonies. I presume the plastic is then redipped in wax and put into colonies. Plastic starts to look like a sustainable (and highly profitable) practice if you can reuse the plastic. Does anyone have any expereince with this? How many times can you steam a plastic frame and still have it be useful? Presumably the most sustainable practice is to have the bees draw out their own comb. I will give it a try and I thank everyone for the advice. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 10:59:53 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Adony_Melathopoulos?= Subject: Re: The History of Movable Combs Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In Allen's defense. I am not entirely sure that skep beekeeping is an anachronism... it is wierd but it certainly captures my respect. From what I have seen skep beekeepers use very few inputs to make their honey, which is in itself an great accomplishment. They achieve this sustainability by elegently fitting their system to bee biology. Although Peter's exhaustive list of the history of state bee act's is impressive and useful (and one which I will file away for later use as it is so comprehensive... who knew there was a bee breeding program in NJ) and there is no doubt that movable hive technology revolutionised beekeeping, this should not undermine the accomplishments of skep beekeepers. I have never come across any evidence to suggest that a well-trained skep beekeeper is a AFB-spreading menace... if you watch the video you will see that skep beekeepers check their combs routinely and replace all their brood combs annually... a big improvement over the current state of affairs. It is my understanding that to keep bees in skeps in Germany (at least this is what the video led me to believe) you need to be acredited... there is no threat here. Overmanaged agricultural systems are not always the best ones. Ingemar Fries and his collegues just published a study of varroa levels in largely- unmanaged bee colonies in Gotland. The bees swarmed and many died, but a few years into the study colonies are persisting and the rate of colony death has declined. Kirk Webster in Vermont has long advocated having the bees define the form in which we keep bees and not the other way around. He claims to have outpaced his losses to varroa using the high reproductive capacity of bees in his area (he makes a lot of nucs to make up his losses and then noticed his nucs last a lot longer without treatments than full-sized colonies). One book Kirk referenced in his summer ABJ series, the One Straw Revolution by Masanobu Fukoka, lays a compelling case for the resiliance of natural systems to deal with problems that we have become accustomed to managing ourselves. I think skep beekeeping, with its long tradition and ties to the master beekeeping programs in Germany, has a lot of knowledge to offer. Adony -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 11:16:13 -0500 Reply-To: allen dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: The History of Movable Combs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Nice summary, Peter. Thanks. To clarify, I'm not disputing *any* of your points, although we can talk a bit on any of them. FWIW, I wasn't saying that the moveable comb was/is a bad thing in itself, but rather what I was saying, or trying to say, is that the continuing bans against non-movable comb hives were and are steering beekeeping development on a different course than it otherwise would have taken, and, overnight, made beekeeping a much more expensive (industrial) pursuit. (That last item is a whole different subject I've tackled here previously, and elsewhere). Other such inflection points were the arrival of cheap sugar manufacturing, the invention of the extractor, and the conversion of the honey market to a mass market (with a subsequent race to the bottom in terms of freshness, quality, purity and authenticity). Moreover, the bans and inspections brought about a political change, and the inspection process became an 'industry' --an end in itself--and in many places a strong political tool to manage and control beekeepers. I know, I was an inspector a more than a quarter decade ago and inspection at that time was a mini-empire in the beaurocracy. That very fact is why some states, like Arizona, have no inspection. Beekeepers revolted. In Alberta, as an expression of the wishes of the beekeepers of the province, we have inspection only on request, although we deliberately kept and updated recently the law that permits mandatory inspection. I said: >> Banning non-movable comb hives was a turning point in beekeeping and >> turned >> us away from selection for resistance toward mechanical and chemical >> methods >> of disease management. Of course the history is written in a way that completely explains and justifies our arrival at the present state. It always is. I am just considering possible alternative histories that might have taken us somewhere else, and figure the banning of fixed comb hives (*not* the invention of bee space and moveable comb) was a critical turning point. It made frame by frame inspection easy and non-destructive, and thus enabled micro-management of the hive, and distracted from a holistic understanding and holistic solutions. This you seem to consider a good thing: > The invention of the movable comb was the single most important change > in beekeeping. It made possible the complete management of the honey > bee colony and opened the way to the great understanding of honey bee > biology that we now take for granted. Before that it was basically a > black box. Was that necessarily a bad thing? Up until the universal adoption of Langstroth hives and moveable frames, beekeepers encouraged swarms and killed the heavy and light hives each fall, leaving the middling ones to propagate the next year. To me that seems to be a pretty good low-tech breeding program. Low budget, low effort, and not subject to bias. Followed faithfully, possibly with some additional intervention, it should also have dealt with AFB in time. Why didn't it? As an inspector, I saw hives with no apparent AFB thriving in abandoned yards where deadouts were riddled with AFB, and always thought, ever since, that there are bees that can resist AFB if we are tough enough to do what is needed to see that the susceptible bees vanish. It's the same quandary we have faced with mites: our measures to maintain our stocks (and our livelihoods) in the short term have prevented nature from solving our problems for us. I recall clearly sitting in a dark room in Niagara Falls, listening to a talk by Marla. At the end, she suggested beekeepers deliberately leave a yard or two untreated and see what happens. To beekeepers, the idea is almost unthinkable, but I have pondered on that ever since. > The banning of non-movable combs was initiated by the need to be able to > inspect hives for disease. This was the rallying point and overt justification, but the politics were, and still are complex. The various underlying agendas are not always revealed or explained. There is no justification for the continuing ban. > While many beekeepers attempted to "treat" with various chemicals, most of > these treatments failed and burning was the recommended method. Burning seemed to work, too. Ohio, for example had impressivly low stats, if they were honest. (We have found in Canada that provincial government bee stats can be pure fiction, and for long periods. (The career span of a specific individual?)). > The idea of breeding resistant bees appeared very early on. Antibiotics > did not appear on the scene until much later... > In my opinion, the reason that interest in bee breeding has had its ups > and downs is that it is very expensive to develop better strains of bees > and the characteristics of these bees rapidly disappear as the bees > interbreed with local stock. Agreed. Another reason is that the products of the breeding programs prove less fit than the local bees, and that the characteristics are not sufficiently fixed to endure. That IMO is due to the methods used, creating ephemeral proprietary hybrids, and/or selecting from the top in a small program in a limited population, rather than culling from the bottom in a mass breeding program involving all local stocks. > In order for a breeding program to work, it would have to be undertaken on > a national scale, and steps would have to be taken to eradicate the > mongrelized local stock. While this has been done in some countries, I > doubt if it will happen in the US, where beekeepers seldom agree on > anything. Good points. Frankly, I think, though that 'eradication' would be a mistake, and rather that their good points and adaptation should be used in any such program. Thanks for the response, and all those good points. allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 16:26:32 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "deknow@netzero.net" Subject: Re: foundation-less combs Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit ...what's been working for me (suggested by michael bush), are popsicle sticks glued (or waxed) into a grooved top bar (the long way, all the way across). i use the walmart "jumbo" popsicle sticks from the craft dept. ...just make sure to glue them all the way across the top bar...easiest to do before assembling the frame. deknow -- Adony Melathopoulos wrote: I will lay a bead of wax along the top bar, like Dee suggested. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 10:59:17 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: foundation-less combs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Adony & All, I think the size of an operation and time/labor enter in. The hobby beekeeper can use whatever time needed and rarely figures his/her time into the equation. The one percenters look at comb different. The term was given on page 12 of the January issue of Bee Culture entitled " Status of Pollination in North America". " In the U.S. there are about 135,000 beekeepers which manage 2.4 million colonies of bees. Only about one percent manage between 300-60,000 colonies each to provide most of the nations pollination. Many of these guys make huge bon fires each spring of comb culls regardless of plastic or wax foundation. All about time/labor and about buying plastic comb by the truck load at truck load prices. I am more frugal myself and my answers are below on plastic in wood frames. >I assume plastic is then redipped in wax and put into colonies. I never redip. I find once plastic has been drawn once then the bees move onto fast the second time around. I have used plenty of unwaxed plastic foundation with success but prefer the waxed unless a strong flow is on. I think its got more to do with bees moving quicker into plastic with the smell of wax than anything else. I have bought unwaxed and dipped myself but not cost effective. Again labor/time involved. If on a hobby basis I most likely would do. >Plastic starts to look like a sustainable (and highly profitable) practice if you can reuse the plastic. Does anyone have any expereince with this? ALL the one percenter's (new term which may take on like forty niner's did for small cell beekeepers) I run with use plastic exclusivly. They dislike the time involved with wiring and afraid of wax from foundation suppliers ( perhaps from quilty concunctous of turning in years of contaminated wax). Most feel plastic is a better deal then the wax/plastic duragilt foundation which when free of wax is not drawn by bees or filled with drone comb. I use different methods of dealing with plastic foundation in wood frames if a cull comb. I do not bon fire but I am not on a level of the really large one percenters. fast cull. 1. I smash a fist through the plastic ( not breaking the foundation of course)and toss the foundation/comb in a box to deal with later. Then snap a new waxed comb in place. slower cull 2. scrap wax into a container I built (55 gallon drum) and then return to box ready for bees. 3. Only scrap part of frame damaged by wax moths or if over my limit for drone comb only the excess drone comb. >How many times can you steam a plastic frame and still have it be useful? Although I have got plenty of plastic frames (beekeeper buy outs) i toss in the trash when ends break or they will not scrap clear of wax. I mean sometimes you have a tough time cutting the wax down until the base foundation is exposed. I do take the plastic foundation I punched out with fist (see above) at this time of year ( WARM BUILDING LISTENING TO BALL GAME OR MUSIC SIPPING ON A GLASS OF MEAD) and go through and try to see if I can reuse. I have a tray i use in my betterway wax melter which can clean the wax off. Warped foundation hits the trash pail. >Presumably the most sustainable practice is to have the bees draw out their own comb. In Missouri when serious brood rearing starts and you have got 8 weeks to the main honey flow the first choice is drawn comb. Bees need warm if not hot weather to get serious about drawing comb. Also hot weather is the best time to use scrapped down plastic foundation. All beekeeping is local and might be interesting to hear ways aothers deal with recycling plastic foundation. In the Dakota's beekeepers use deeps and get comb drawn as supers and then use fully drawn in brood nests. In 70-90F. weather bees draw comb unbelievably fast. In March /April in Missouri when temps only reach 70F. for a few hours in the day comb drawing is a slow process. Sooo I do not draw foundation at that time. Never. To me using foundation-less comb has never even been considered but interesting to hear about others using such methods. bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 14:03:23 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: The History of Movable Combs Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Peter: > Before that it was basically a black box. Allen: > Was that necessarily a bad thing? Peter: To me, knowledge is always better than ignorance. Knowledge can be misapplied and lead to negative consequences, but the consequences of ignorance are worse. Think about medicine, for example. Before antibiotics and vaccinations people died from minor infections. Sure, modern medicine makes people less resistant to disease, but who wants to have ten kids just to get one or two good ones (like they did even 100 years ago). Allen: > Another reason is that the products of the breeding programs prove less fit than the local bees, and that the characteristics are not sufficiently fixed to endure. Peter: The reason that the bees are "less fit" has to do with what they are being selected for. It is not the fault of bee breeding itself. Let's not throw the baby out with the bath water. The same thing is true in all animal husbandry. If you breed only for productivity or appearance, you can lose vitality. * * * Peter: > steps would have to be taken to eradicate the mongrelized local stock. Allen: > I think that 'eradication' would be a mistake, and rather that their good points and adaptation should be used in any such program. Yeah, well, I disagree on this. I think the idea that the "bees in the woods" are somehow better adapted, is nonsense. They are just escaped swarms anyway so they are no different than any old neglected bees. A lot of these neglected hives have vigorous stock, but that's because if they didn’t they would have perished. It is not logical to conclude that therefore neglected stock is more vigorous on the whole. If somebody wants more vigorous stock, they can simply let the weak ones perish. That's what a lot of large scale operators do anyway. They don't have time to fuss with the duds so they just let them die out. In the past beekeepers selected for productivity or temperament. Now vigor and disease resistance should be foremost. A further disincentive to using wild hives is that these are a source of African genes. I think there are plenty of good lines to choose from and if these bees are not good enough to do the job, then we need to try harder. But no good will ever come from going back to the days when beekeeping was basically just catching swarms and robbing them, with no idea what was going on inside of the hive. I learned a long time ago that there isn't enough time to do all the things that you would like to do with your bees so you have to concentrate on the things that matter most. Re-queening from good stock is one the best things you can do for your bees, and I sure wouldn’t want to try to do that in a hive with without frames. pb -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 08:25:13 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Organization: Randy Oliver Subject: Re: foundation-less combs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>> you can find the other videos in the series if you are crafty: Thanks, Adony, For those of us less crafty, would you please post the URL for the video on dividing colonies? I'm very curious how he restocks those thousand skeps in the spring! Thanks, Randy Oliver -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 15:09:19 -0500 Reply-To: allen dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: The History of Movable Combs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>>Before that it was basically a black box. >> Was that necessarily a bad thing? > To me, knowledge is always better than ignorance... But, does it make ignorance necessarily *bad*? Too much of the wrong kind of knowledge can be confusing. How much do we need to know? Many excellent, successful beekeepers manage huge numbers of hives (black, or should I say, white boxes) without necessarily knowing more than a little of what is happening inside them. Clearly, "If we are asking the wrong question, the answer does not matter", and I think that may apply to much of our 'progress'. We are asking the wrong questions and being satisfied with the answers. (I won't start here on how badly most of the studies I read have been run, often starting with the wrong questions). >> Another reason is that the products of the breeding programs prove less >> fit than the local bees, and that the characteristics are not >> sufficiently >> fixed to endure. > The reason that the bees are "less fit" has to do with what they are being > selected for. It is not the fault of bee breeding itself. Let's not throw > the baby out with the bath water. The same thing is true in all animal > husbandry. If you breed only for productivity or appearance, you can lose > vitality. So it seems we are saying the same thing, and agree on the problem, but have a slightly differing perspective. >> steps would have to be taken to eradicate the mongrelized local stock. >> I think that 'eradication' would be a mistake, and rather that their good >>points and adaptation should be used in any such program. > > Yeah, well, I disagree on this. I think the idea that the "bees in the > woods" are somehow better adapted, is nonsense. They are just escaped > swarms > anyway so they are no different than any old neglected bees. A lot of > these > neglected hives have vigorous stock, but that's because if they didn’t > they > would have perished. It is not logical to conclude that therefore > neglected > stock is more vigorous on the whole. Sorry if I was not clear. I wasn't concluding that at all. I was trying to say that if the local bees are so persistent that they need to be hunted down and eradicated, that there must be some redeeming quality there, especially since so many of our pampered bees die off periodically for no apparent reason. > If somebody wants more vigorous stock, they can simply let the weak ones > perish. That's what a lot of large scale operators do anyway. They don't > have time to fuss with the duds so they just let them die out. True and that would eventually lead to better adapted bees, except that the bees are often moved, and also new stock (queens, cells) is purchased on the whim of the moment. Moreover these ad hoc additions typically come from a very narrow genetic background (one mother) and drones from a yard full of hives that have been selected because they love to build queen cells. > In the past beekeepers selected for productivity or temperament. Now vigor > and disease resistance should be foremost. All these chracteristics can be found in selected hives in a large enough population. All the more reason to avoid breeding from small, closed populations. > A further disincentive to using wild hives is that these are a source of > African genes. Face it. We are going to have to tame AHB. Sooner or later. Better sooner. Maybe some have and would speak up if the hysteria about AHB were to subside. > I think there are plenty of good lines to choose from and if these bees > are not good enough to do the job, then we need to try harder. Even if that approach has failed over and over? Seems like a technician's guaranteed employment plan to me. > But no good will ever come from going back to the days when beekeeping was > basically just catching swarms and robbing them, with no idea what was > going > on inside of the hive. Those are not the only choices. Besides it is not either/or. And, I can't believe all those skep keepers were as ignorant as suggested. Some were, and some beekeepers remain ignorant today, but there were very smart and observant people as long as we had recorded history, and before, I would assume. > I learned a long time ago that there isn't enough time to do all the > things > that you would like to do with your bees so you have to concentrate on the > things that matter most. Re-queening from good stock is one the best > things > you can do for your bees, and I sure wouldn’t want to try to do that in a > hive with without frames. We are a product of our times, and we think the way we are taught, but there are other equally good--or superior--options if we look. allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 14:08:04 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: queens (was The History of Movable Combs) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, > steps would have to be taken to eradicate the mongrelized local stock. Actually most (if not all) of all the stock in the U.S. could be called mongrelized. Or you could use the rule of thumb used by some ( not all) queen producers. If yellow in color the queen goes in the Italian queen cage. If dark she goes in the Carniolan cage. To break down breeding programs you have got the queen producers which toil over numbered queens and instrumental insemination. Smaller selection group of usually around a 100 hives. and then you have got the method I prefer: You select the breeder queens every year from several thousand of your best production hives for the traits you desire. The queens I buy mostly are from the three queen producers I know of which use the method and have always been my best source of queens. >If somebody wants more vigorous stock, they can simply let the weak ones perish. That's what a lot of large scale operators do anyway. Large scale operators for the most part do not raise queens and requeen on a one or two year cycle. If they are not happy with the queens they are getting they use another queen producer the next year. I would not consider myself large scale but still I never get all my queens from the same source. Three sources gives you a chance to compare plus keeps you from getting a total queen failure. Early queens from California last year (due to cold weather and poor mating) produced poor queens. Not the queen producers fault and will not stop most of us from using those queens this year but does make most of us glad all our queens were not from one area. > In the past beekeepers selected for productivity or temperament. Now vigor and disease resistance should be foremost. Not with many of us IF treatments for disease are working. Vigor in my opinion is related to poor control of mites, disease and contaminated comb. Healthy bees without poor brood viability have got plenty of vigor. Prolific bees will be productive in my opinion. Again the one percenter veiw point. Varroa is still the big issue today. Prolific and bees which do not need varroa treatment have not quite came together yet ( at least to a point the whole 100 queens are prolific). To the one percenter when cost of treating is higher than the the loss of productivity then the varroa tolerant and disease resistant bee will need a close look. Sure we always try a few to have a look see. When friends like Randy Oliver say the new VHS queens are prolific & working in a commercial operation then I am willing to take a look but certainly not jump in head first. Might try a precentage this spring. At a recent convention several of the largest queen producers said the same thing. When we see a better bee than ours we will switch or use in our program. So far we like the bees we use and sell. I use those guy queens and for one want those queens bees back next year. >A further disincentive to using wild hives is that these are a source of African genes. The USDA-ARS is not going to say what I am about to say (or at least not in public) so I will. AHB genetics reach far and wide in the U.S.. One country has banned imports of queens from the U.S. saying even our DNA testing for AHB is suspect. bob -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2007 08:49:37 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: queenbee Subject: Downsizing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bob wrote this under cats and pigeons. Not quite the subject I think is = appropriate so have changed it to above. > I think we all have been waiting for a large commercial beekeeper to = embrace > the Lusby methods. The beekeeper is downsizing in two steps exactly as = Dee > & Ed did. > NOT what I am doing this spring. Good luck. Like you I thought I would like to try these small cell as = it is claimed to be the panacea for varroa, which we do not yet have, = and all other brood diseases. Got hold of some 4.9 plastic as I = reckoned that they would only chew ordinary wax foundation apart. Tried = for two years to get some nucs established. The bees I selected were = from a strong hive. They did start to draw it at 4.9 but did a lot of = higher sizes. No problems I thought as I would just rip it out with the = hive tool and let them redraw. The advantage of plastic?? The nucs never really built up whereas my "normal cell" nucs in the same = area thrived and became "normal" honey producing hives. The 4.9ers did = not get out of a 4 frame nuc and did not survive winter. Tried again this year. Got them sort of established in a 4 frame nuc = and then transferred into an 8 frame hive. Success at last I thought!!! = They started to build up but no were near as fast as other in the same = yard in 8 frame boxes. Now they have decided that they do not want to = draw off the foundation but build their own comb parallel to the = foundation but just off the foundation. A real pain. Do I persist? = Probably just so I can try and get some on 4.9 and see if they are these = wonder bees. As I said, good luck Bob. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA Hope you have been looking at www.apimondia2007.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 10:14:16 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: David Kraus Subject: Re: The History of Movable Combs In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- Adony Melathopoulos wrote: "if you watch the video you will see that skep beekeepers check their combs routinely and replace all their brood combs annually" I've watched the snippet you posted a link to, and tried for some time to find more with no luck. Can anyone post a link to the rest? ____________________________________________________________________________________ Get your own web address. Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business. http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/domains/?p=BESTDEAL -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 23:06:05 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Adony_Melathopoulos?= Subject: skep video links Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit As some of you discovered, the IWF website is kind of kookey. Fortunately Beesource linked all the good videos before the IWF website began expreiencing problems. Only the small format is available: Heathland Beekeeping - 1. Central Europe, Northern Lower Saxony - Spring Work in a Heather Skep Apiary http://mkat.iwf.de/mms/metafiles/04000028790220000000_lo.asx Beekeeping - 2. Central Europe, Northern Lower Saxony - Preparations for the Swarming Period in a Heather Skep Apiary http://mkat.iwf.de/mms/metafiles/04000029010220000000_lo.asx Heathland Beekeeping - 3. Central Europe, Northern Lower Saxony - Work in a Heather Skep Apiary during the Prime Swarming Period http://mkat.iwf.de/mms/metafiles/04000029460220000000_lo.asx Heathland Beekeeping - 4. Central Europe, Northern Lower Saxony - Work in a Heather Skep Apiary during the Cast Swarming Period http://mkat.iwf.de/mms/metafiles/04000029620220000000_lo.asx Heathland Beekeeping - 5. Central Europe, Northern Lower Saxony - Summer Work during the Heather Blossom in a Skep Apiary http://mkat.iwf.de/mms/metafiles/04000029940220000000_lo.asx Beekeeping - 6. Central Europe, Northern Lower Saxony - Autumn Work in a Heather Skep Apiary http://mkat.iwf.de/mms/metafiles/04000027900220000000_lo.asx Heathland Beekeeping - 7. Central Europe, Northern Lower Saxony - Harvest of Heather Honey in a Skep Apiary http://mkat.iwf.de/mms/metafiles/04000028020220000000_lo.asx Heathland Beekeeping - 8. Central Europe, Northern Lower Saxony - Bees' Wax Pressing in a Traditional Apiary http://mkat.iwf.de/mms/metafiles/04000026610220000000_lo.asx -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 20:58:07 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Organization: Randy Oliver Subject: Re: queens (was The History of Movable Combs) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > When friends like Randy Oliver say the new VHS queens are prolific & working > in a commercial operation then I am willing to take a look but certainly > not jump in head first. Might try a precentage this spring. I concur, Bob. Don't put all your eggs in one basket! I changed my breeding program several years ago, and selected solely for mite resistance. Wound up with a bunch of nonproductive bees. Changed back to the old strategy (that worked for me for 20 years) two years ago: select again for the bees that make me the most money. Mark the best 10% of honey producers, then of those, those with the lowest mite levels mid August, then from those, the strongest on Feb 10 going to almonds. I don't care whose genes they are, or how they do it, as long as they do it! I bring in an assortment of fresh stock each year to mix it all up. Produce queens primarily from last year's best, but also a good proportion of promising stock. I only produce enough queens for myself and the nucs I sell (1000-2000 queens a season), and cull them ruthlessly. Feedback from my nuc purchasers is unanimous--good stock makes all the difference in the world. The SMR (VSH) genes are available to work INTO YOUR MOST PRODUCTIVE LINES. John Harbo released SMR with that understanding. It appeared to take a while to get enough VSH genes into my drone gene pool--my drone mothers, plus all the feral drones from my swarms. Don't rely on genetic mite tolerance to be the answer to your prayers at first. As long as the most tolerant bees are surrounded by colonies collapsing in the fall, they are going to be overwhelmed by mite immigration. In summary, keep breeding for the best producers, but work resistant genes into them, and keep up other mite control methods until mite levels drop overall. Randy Oliver -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2007 00:41:13 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Adony_Melathopoulos?= Subject: Re: The History of Movable Combs Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Why is it so difficult to simultaneously appreciate the great accomplishments of skep beekeepers AND the innovation of Langstroth? They are LIVING examples of how beekeepers can come up with very different, creative and functional solutions to similar problems. Like Allen, I lament that skep beekeeping is not more widely practiced as I think diversity is important to innovation. In light of this remarkable ingenuity, I find it surprising that Allen would heap the blame of our narrowed perspective on the "stifling" influence of state and provincial inspectors. This over estimates the influence of the inspectors and give beekeepers too little credit for their ability to think for themselves. Personally the inspectors I have met have been knowledgeable, helpful and well-respected. They do not warrant this blame. It would be interesting to know if non-movable frame beekeeping was at all prevalent at the time of the Bee Acts or if it had already gone into decline. Adony -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 23:56:12 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Downsizing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Trevor & All, What you describe was what happened to me the first time. When I asked the small cell group they said what I saw and you saw was normal. I thought to myself back then . ---- ---- ----! Way to much hassle. Now six years later Dennis Murrel has suggested a better way and has convinced me to try. He talks about the method at his Bee Wrangler web site. I tried to explain the amount of headache the Florida beekeeper was in for by trying to get 4-6000 hives on small cell but he seemed determined to go ahead and not heed my warning. As I explained the first of December the placement of the 2 frames of small cell foundation in a strong hives brood nest center a couple weeks before our main flow is similar to what I normally do with a couple frames of drawn comb at that time to prevent swarming. However some swarming may occur in the test hives as drawn comb gives the queen room to lay eggs right away while frames with foundation will not give her room to lay eggs and she can stop laying eggs if other combs are full of brood. A queen which is not laying eggs is a flight risk. Dennis M. seems to think after you get four frames of 4.9mm correctly drawn comb in the brood nest you see the same benefits as Dee sees with the whole box 4.9mm. I figure once I get all the comb drawn I will reduce the number of test hives ( 87 with 2 frames) in half and end up with 43 hives with four frames of 4.9mm. I am considering spliting the 4.9 mm part of the strong double hive down into a single deep for the summer. 9 frames of which the four in the center are 4.9mm. I might try a few with 6 frames of 4.9mm and 3 on the very outside being larger cell. The whole project is a test. Also the above is thinking out loud. Much will depend on the way the bees draw and react to the small cell foundation. bob -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2007 07:21:17 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: George Fergusson Subject: Re: The History of Movable Combs In-Reply-To: <493342.72407.qm@web58702.mail.re1.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Can anyone post a link to the rest? These are marvelous videos, I've watched them several times. Learn or notice something new every time. I've never had much luck searching the site for them so I'll post the entire series. You need a high-bandwidth internet connection to do them justice. George- ------------------------ Heathland Beekeeping - 1. Central Europe, Northern Lower Saxony - Spring Work in a Heather Skep Apiary http://mkat.iwf.de/mms/metafiles/04000028790220000000_lo.asx Beekeeping - 2. Central Europe, Northern Lower Saxony - Preparations for the Swarming Period in a Heather Skep Apiary http://mkat.iwf.de/mms/metafiles/04000029010220000000_lo.asx Heathland Beekeeping - 3. Central Europe, Northern Lower Saxony - Work in a Heather Skep Apiary during the Prime Swarming Period http://mkat.iwf.de/mms/metafiles/04000029460220000000_lo.asx Heathland Beekeeping - 4. Central Europe, Northern Lower Saxony - Work in a Heather Skep Apiary during the Cast Swarming Period http://mkat.iwf.de/mms/metafiles/04000029620220000000_lo.asx Heathland Beekeeping - 5. Central Europe, Northern Lower Saxony - Summer Work during the Heather Blossom in a Skep Apiary http://mkat.iwf.de/mms/metafiles/04000029940220000000_lo.asx Beekeeping - 6. Central Europe, Northern Lower Saxony - Autumn Work in a Heather Skep Apiary http://mkat.iwf.de/mms/metafiles/04000027900220000000_lo.asx Heathland Beekeeping - 7. Central Europe, Northern Lower Saxony - Harvest of Heather Honey in a Skep Apiary http://mkat.iwf.de/mms/metafiles/04000028020220000000_lo.asx Heathland Beekeeping - 8. Central Europe, Northern Lower Saxony - Bees' Wax Pressing in a Traditional Apiary http://mkat.iwf.de/mms/metafiles/04000026610220000000_lo.asx -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 20:11:01 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Downsizing In-Reply-To: <002901c74265$6cf73960$8a9b453d@new1> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit queenbee wrote: about the difficulties in getting bees to work small cell foundation. First, let me say that I am not currently a proponent for small cell beekeeping. That being said, I think I remember that the bees have to be worked down to the small size cells gradually, in two or three steps, and not just dropped in one step from our current normal sized cells to the proposed small cell size. Mike in LA --------------------------------- It's here! Your new message! Get new email alerts with the free Yahoo! Toolbar. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 21:11:05 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Downsizing In-Reply-To: <002901c74265$6cf73960$8a9b453d@new1> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Trevor: You putting 8 frames in a 10 frame box? Also how putting the frames in the box (sequence here)? Dee ____________________________________________________________________________________ Don't pick lemons. See all the new 2007 cars at Yahoo! Autos. http://autos.yahoo.com/new_cars.html -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2007 05:05:09 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dan O'Callaghan Subject: Re: foundation-less combs In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit A link to all the videos in the series, plus a few more. http://www.iwf.de/iwf/do/mkat/listing.aspx?Action=Schnell&SearchStr=beekeeping if the site appears in German, click the English flag in the upper right corner. There are 8 (I think) videos on skep beekeeping, following activities through the seasons. I could not get the ant of the videos to play in their entirety in "high" mode, but the "low" mode worked fine. Dan O'Callaghan Greene County Beekeepers Association (Ohio) Webmaster Visit our site: http://www.gcbeekeepers.com Adony Melathopoulos wrote: The URL on the skep beekeeping videos... this is but one in a series. Their website is somewhat on the fritz but you can find the other videos in the series if you are crafty: http://www.iwf.de/iwf/do/mkat/details.aspx?Signatur=E+2802 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2007 10:58:58 -0500 Reply-To: allen dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: The History of Movable Combs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I find it surprising that Allen would heap the blame of our narrowed > perspective on the "stifling" influence of state and provincial > inspectors. Actually, that was not my intent. Inspectors, for the most part, simply do what they are asked to do by legislation and regulations, and the beekeeping community. Some are over-zealous, others lax and incompetent, but, by the large they are decent, helpful, and moderate. As I said, I was one, and saw the thing from the inside, as well as the outside. Times have changed a lot, too from the first several decades after WWII, when pressure for conformity was stronger. Moreover, from what I have heard, some jurisdictions are very straight-arrow, but some others have been accused of being somewhat corrupt, and I can confirm that from my own experience. I've seen inspection and enforcement used as a tool in personal vendettas. > This over estimates the influence of the inspectors and give beekeepers > too little credit for their ability to think for themselves. The impetus for legislation and enforcement came from within the beekeeping community, but then, as now, the most vocal and successful beekeeper politicians were not necessarily the smartest, or the ones with the most to lose. Those who valued individual liberty and personal responsibility were often shouted down or worn down by endless blather from people who were small-time beekeepers, but bigtime organisers and manipulators, and unburdened by the facts. Additionally, civil servants, intent on protecting and/or building their turf weighed in, often on the side of more regulation and restriction. Does this picture sound familiar? (Take a look at the Canada/U.S. border story over the last few decades and the poitical involvement of some CAPA members in what is really none of their business). Then--going back in time--as now, many large beekeepers, ignored or avoided the bee organisations, ignored or dodged the inspectors and did pretty well as they pleased. When caught, they paid the fines quietly and kept trucking. Have legislation, regulation and inspection benefitted the industry or have they simply placed an unneccessay burden on it? The answer to that question depends on who you are and where you sit? It is the centre of continuing debate, and we must not forget that those on the 'nay' side is often not as well represented in the forums as it is in the population. These guys are independent businessmen, and usually don't turn up to mud wrestle and argue endlessly with the small-time idealogues who have seemingly unlimited time and money--after all most of that group have jobs to support their beekeeping or work for government--to try to repress and control them. > Personally the inspectors I have met have been knowledgeable, helpful and > well-respected. They do not warrant this blame. I don't think I blamed the inspectors. They were just doing what was asked. many are also beekeepers. It was the entire spirit of the times which formed beekeepers and regulators into a herd. What, exactly, I said: >> Moreover, the bans and inspections brought about a political change, and >> the inspection process became an 'industry' --an end in itself--and in >> many places a strong political tool to manage and control beekeepers. I >> know, I was an inspector a more than a quarter decade ago and inspection >> at that time was a mini-empire in the beaurocracy. I'm not indicting the inspectors, per se. I'm saying that the beaurocrats some places saw and opportunity to extend government influence, with all the things (costs, abuses, red tape, self-dealing, pork barrelling, restraint of trade, seizure and destruction of private property, even incarceration) that go with it. You can probably guess from my perspective that I tend to be somewhat libertarian, but not to the point that I can't see good in almost everything and also imagine constructive uses for govenment. I also pointed out that Alberta has a very liberal (in the traditional, not the socialist sense) regime and beekeepers have a fairly enightened relationship with extension, inspection and enforcement, so we have to go over to Saskatraz to see the abuses of an overzealous and restrictive regime in place--and the negative impact on open discusssion and freedom that such regimes always have. >> In Alberta, as an expression of the wishes of the beekeepers of the >> province, we have inspection only on request, although we deliberately >> kept and updated recently the law that permits mandatory inspection. > It would be interesting to know if non-movable frame beekeeping was at all > prevalent at the time of the Bee Acts or if it had already gone into > decline. This would be interesting research. allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2007 09:36:04 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Downsizing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, As Mike says downsizing is not easy. Also those with downsized bees only report the things they report about their bees AFTER the bees are fully established on small cell. I also caution that many only report those things in the second year. The new Betterbee catalog gives this method for one step downsizing. 1. shake package on box small cell foundation. 2.after a few generations have emerged remove the outside two frames . 3. split the brood nest and insert two undrawn small cell into the CENTER of the brood nest. 4. repeat until you have got a fully drawn box of small cell. I can see a few possible problems with the above but if done at the right time for your area it should work fairly well in my opinion. 70F for 24 hours a day minimum temp plus nectar coming in or feeding of light syrup. Both good and poor results have been reported with the above method. Especially with bees which had been on 5.4 mm. foundation before. 5.4mm to 4.9mm is a big step but has been done. Also the Florida beekeeper told me he is going down in two steps following Dee Lusby's method to the detail. Not using the above method. bob -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 07:19:08 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: queenbee Subject: Re: Downsizing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > You putting 8 frames in a 10 frame box? Also how putting > the frames in the box (sequence here)? No they are an 8 frame box that takes 8 frames only. These are used in certain parts of Australia. I had a few I had acquired over the years and thought I would try them as they do not go into the yards with the normal 10 frame boxes. As for sequence, I had the drawn ones left over from the ones that died out the previous year that I started the new hive with in a four frame nuc box.. Tried in one to just let them expand of their own accord. The other one I split the brood with a foundation. Same result in both. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2007 13:34:10 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Jaross Subject: Link to Skep Film Series MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For the series of eight short films on Heathland Beekeeping, the German farmer who exclusively uses (used?) skeps, try this link: http://www.iwf.de/iwf/do/mkat/listing.aspx?Action=Schnell&SearchStr=Heideimkerei I don't know how this link will appear on Bee-L, but if the link doesn't work, try copying and pasting into your browser. Remember, the entire link is needed. Good luck! Michael, NW WA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2007 13:39:15 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Jaross Subject: Link to Skep Films, again. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For the series of eight short films on Heathland Beekeeping, the German farmer who exclusively uses (used?) skeps, try this link: http://www.iwf.de/iwf/do/mkat/listing.aspx?Action=Schnell&SearchStr=Heideimkerei I don't know how this link will appear on Bee-L, but if the link doesn't work, try copying and pasting into your browser. Remember, the entire link is needed. Good luck! -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2007 18:59:03 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Downsizing In-Reply-To: <001501c74321$f427cfa0$919b453d@new1> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Trevor: Width of Endbars? Spacing of Endbars? and again, just putting in foundation, and/or drawnout comb from previous year? Foundation is straight also? Sincerely, Dee (p.s. I am putting pieces together in mind so far with some accepted/some rejected FWIW). ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info ---