From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 10:53:02 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C56C482A5 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:52:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SFkpIL016612 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:52:18 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:52:16 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0703C" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 260792 Lines: 5957 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 23:43:37 -0500 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: The bees are just gone MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > How can you expect to use a survey, phone call or email to > poll a diverse group of people like beekeepers to inquire > if they are seeing the same behaviour? As we say here alot > on Bee-L "all beekeeping is local". It is easier than you might think. The symptoms are fairly unique. There is even an FAQ on the MAAREC website ( http://maarec.cas.psu.edu/FAQ/FAQCCD.pdf ) that lists the overt symptoms, and so far, no one has mentioned that one's location made any difference in terms of overt symptoms, so I'll venture that the symptoms seen to date are consistent regardless of one's location. " How do I know if a colony has CCD? Colonies impacted by CCD have the following characteristics: 1) The complete absence of adult bees in the hive, (in some cases the queen and a small number of survivor bees are present in the brood nest) with no or little build-up of dead bees in the hive or at the hive entrances. 2) The presence of capped brood. 3) The presence of food stores, both honey and bee bread, which is not immediately robbed by other bees. Invasion of common hive pests such as wax moth and small hive beetle is noticeably delayed in dead-out equipment left in the field. What are the early signs of CCD? In cases where the colony appears to be actively collapsing: 1) There is an insufficient workforce to maintain the brood that is present. 2) The workforce seems to be made up of young adult bees. 3) The queen is present, appears healthy and is usually still laying eggs. 4) The cluster is reluctant to consume feed provided by the beekeeper, such as sugar syrup and protein supplement. 5) Foraging populations are greatly reduced/non-existent." >> Does CCD affect AHB? >> (thinking that there's yet another TLA to remember) Gee, I dunno, no one's mentioned it. Maybe we should ask the folks at MAAREC (And I'm a charter member of PASTA - "People Against STupid Acronyms"!) ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 02:28:08 -0600 Reply-To: allen dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: One Third of our Food? -- Fact or Fancy? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> I'd be *most* interested to see the data underlying the oft-repeated >> claim that 1/3 of our food requires bee pollination. > McGregor was the source of the quote: 'it appears that perhaps one-third > of our total diet is dependent, directly or indirectly, upon > insect-pollinated plants'. See here for more details: > http://gears.tucson.ars.ag.gov/book/econ.html > > I looked at the FAO figures, and it is clear that the big crops are wind > or self-pollinated - but that large numbers of crop species (many more > than a third) are insect pollinated. That was fast! Thanks. -- And Good! Actually, I should have known where that came from, and I can see you have given this a lot of thought. I guess my problem is with the people who have translated that reasonable, educated and carefully worded guess, which appears to apply to the number of food items in our diet, into colourful sound bites that suggest that one of every three spoonsful of food would somehow disappear if something happened to the honeybee.. Maybe this is a topic for a detailed grad study, since there is a lot research and number crunching necessary to get anywhere accurate numbers on the real contribution of honey bees -- IMO anyhow. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 06:09:15 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Wade Subject: Re: Questions on CCD problem In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi I've been wondering if the CCD problem could be related to a directional disorder so bees can not find their way back to the colony. Do bees ever depend on magnetic field lines for direction and, if so, are magnetic field lines changing or becoming unstable possibly leading to observed problems? Do bees use other alternate methods of navigation such as electrostatic field lines? Would anyone with information care to comment? Wade ----- Honey Hill Farm beekeeper@honeyhillfarm.com http://www.honeyhillfarm.com ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 07:26:37 -0400 Reply-To: Tim Tucker Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Tucker Subject: What is the average and max amount of brood Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 13-Mar-07, at 8:36 PM, John & Christy Horton wrote: > I was looking through my hives and was wondering if anybody knows > tha normal amount of brood + eggs that one would find in a hive in > springtime conditions. > What would the maximum? > > I have seen one with about 1000 square inches in one of my few > hives thats a double-this is all brood and all aggs. Hello John and all, Of course this is an all depends type situation involving lattitude, race of queen, colony health, condidion of equipment and a host of other variables but: It has been my experience that on average, sometime around Apr. 15th to May 15th, swarming time, I will see the maximum number of brood for the season which coincides with the approximate beginning of the honey flow here in southern Kansas. If you are working with a young fertile queen who might be able to deposit as many as 2,000 eggs a day over the 21 day average brood cycle for workers then you might have a maximum of 42-45,000 cells of brood which would occupy, at approx. 6500 - 7000 cells per frame if all filled, 6 frames. I have used 2,000 eggs per day as the maximum referring to Eckert & Shaw on “Beekeeping” pub. 1960 by Macmillian. The more likely scenario would be frames that are about 2/3 filled with brood and the rest containing honey, pollen and mouse holes, which would translate into 8-10 frames of brood. Queens that cannot produce 5 frames of brood by April 15th in my area get pinched. If you are looking for square inches, I guess that would translate into the following: Assuming 260 sq.in / frame, 2/3 would be approx. 170 sq. in./ frame, times 8 would be 1360 sq. in. It has been my experience that for really good queens, 8 - 2/3 filled frames of brood with a couple of them being wall to wallers, is about the best they get for me and that involves some manipulation of frames or boxes and timely management, which usually isn't the case. With 1000 sq. in. of brood presently, I think you have an excellent queen doing a great job for this early in the season. Better watch her close for the next few weeks or she may be gone! Good luck. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 09:22:14 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Adony_Melathopoulos?= Subject: Re: Wild Bees Reject Genetically Engineered Crop -- NOT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Tue, 13 Mar 2007 15:21:35 -0400, Ted Hancock wrote: >People seem to interpret this research in two different ways. One view is >that we can best produce food by nuking a crop with pesticides to kill the >weeds (and local pollinators), then bring in our nice healthy honey bees >to do the pollination. I trust that most beekeepers are not happy about the loss of diversity in agriculture. What is good for native pollinators - a diversity of forages and successional flowering - is clearly good for our managed bees. Even from a self-serving "short life" perspective, I cannot see how any beekeeper is benefiting from the dominance of soybean/corn cropping systems and the decline of clover/alfalfa as a livestock forage and nitrogen-fixing plow-down. There is a nutritional need in N. America for increased consumption of a diverse source of fruits and vegetables and decreased consumption of fats and sweeteners... I would speculate that the landscape would generally be more bee friendly if the objective was to meet this need (in 1995 to meet the recommended requirements for the US diet the acreages of dark green leafy and deep yellow vegetables would need to increase by 1.4 million acres and fruit by 3-4 million acres). Someone asked me to make the case why an "ethical" person should eat honey over organic cane sugar. While I explained that it takes less non- renewable energy to make a calorie of honey and that the labour standards in the production of honey were better, I realised pollination is also a big part... by eating honey you support a very sustainable agricultural input. I admit when I said this I was going from intuition and not from a carefully researched position. Allen raised the issue "is pollination the limiting factor" in yield. I find this question so interesting and think it is worthy of the attention by the sustainable agriculture community. Rephrased: which inputs give us the most profitable and sustainable (eg takes less non-renewable energy, produces less greenhouses gases, retains more wealth within our rural communities) increase in yield. I have never seen this problem laid out in this way and I think it would be a productive way to tackle this problem. As Allen points out, the results from this line of research may be very contectualised. The only way to tell is to conduct studies at many randomly selected sites and over a few years and measure how strong the interaction is between the input and the environment. Returning to Ted. If there is in fact a generalised trend within new cropping system to erode what is left of naturally-regenerating pollination systems, I don't think this is something to cheer about. When a pollination system that did not cost a farmer a cent and was input-free, is replaced with a system that costs farmers money, and requires bees to be trucked around, fed sucrose for winter and medicated, this can only be seen as a big step backwards. Nonetheless, given the circumstances, trucking bees around may be the most sustainable way to keep yields up now that the wild bees are no longer players in the pollination of many crops. Adony ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 12:09:23 -0500 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Questions on CCD problem MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I've been wondering if the CCD problem could be related to a > directional disorder so bees can not find their way back to the > colony. Do bees ever depend on magnetic field lines for direction There was speculation about this for quite some time, as bees clearly do have some detectable iron in their trophocytes. See http://jeb.biologists.org/cgi/reprint/126/1/375.pdf But one can't get the bees to show that they use any sort of magnetic-based navigation at all. See http://jeb.biologists.org/cgi/reprint/86/1/1.pdf Also, be aware that the statements made in the first paper above about bees building combs in alignment with magnetic fields or compass points has been debunked multiple times, as the bees build their comb in the direction of whatever attachment "bar" is provided, and if a solid sheet is provided, they will build comb pretty much "at random". Ian Rumsey did a series of articles in the Apis-UK newsletter documenting a test he did, which produced the usual of apparently encouraging easy-to-misinterpret results mixed with utterly random acts proving that the bees pay little or no attention to the earth's magnetic field: See http://www.beedata.com/apis-uk/newsletters05/apis-uk0905.htm (The article series about his tests starts several issues before this one.) > and, if so, are magnetic field lines changing or becoming unstable > possibly leading to observed problems? If the Earth was to reverse its magnetic field again (which has happened several times, as shown in the geological record) I think that we would have noticed. For one thing, the yells of "WTF?" from every Boy Scout and sailor on the planet would have alerted us to the problem. As far as "unstable" goes, there are minor variations in the strength of Earth's magnetic field, and the overall field/flux varies in a detectable amount in the normal course of events. But not to worry, Earth's magnetic field is not all fluxed up. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 16:57:27 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: poor crop in Argentina? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed >Canadian polyflora, white, max 25mm USD 1920 CFR The last posting on this with the current offerings in Europe brought a LOT of private mail, the tone of which varied from 'thanks for the info' down to calling it complete lies.................hmmm. Why shoot the messenger? Since then I have been told by some N. American correspondents of sharp price rises reported on a certain site. However, current list of offerings arrived on my desk from Germany this afternoon. They do not support the idea that there has been a sharp movement in prices, though the warning they are sending out may be a forewarning of their opinion that the market will soon move up, or perhaps a tactic to drum up some business. Canadian prices are unchanged from 2 weeks ago. With one lot of 60 tonnes (white max 25mm) on offer at USD 1920 One lot of 100 tonnes (white max 15mm) USD 1935 One lot of 40 to 60 tonnes (white max 25mm) at USD 2050 All Canadian prices are CFR Argentine is on offer again this week. One lot of 100 tonnes (max 50mm) at USD 1695 One lot of 100 tonnes (max 34mm) at USD 1715 These lots are FOB Buenos Aires selected others (its a long list!) Chilean Pile1, max 50mm USD 1800 FOB Czech Blossom.................EUR 1800 delivered home to buyer Guatemala LA or better USD 1700 EXW Indian max 34mm USD 1625 CFR Indian max 85mm USD 1575 CFR NZ Clover 15 - 34mm EUR 2200 CFR ( much more expensive than Canadian!) Romanian polyflora EUR 1650 delivered home to buyer In addition the listing carries the following header:- 'As you surely already know, the US beekeepers are claiming that the beehives are vanished up to 80% sometimes90%. That is a tragedy so short before the new crop. Everybody surely knows what that means. The normal yearly honey crop in the USA was between ca 80000 - 100000 tonnes.' Please, don't fire back at ME about this, it is quoting what is on a brokers weekly release. -- Murray McGregor ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 13:09:37 -0500 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: CCD in Hawaii - NOT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The symptoms of CCD were NOT seen in Hawaii. What they had was a simple pesticide kill at one location on one island, and this incident was offered up as a TESTBED to compare and contrast a known "Imidiclorprid kill" to what is being seen with CCD. The symptoms were not at all similar to CCD, but the offer of the kill as a "testbed" may have resulted in garbled communications. This clarification comes from Gus Rouse (Kona Queen) in Hawaii: <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> "This all came about after we received a "spray kill" on one location. The farmer had notified me that he had used the systemic imidiclorprid. I offered up this info to the [Board Of Directors] of [the American Beekeeping Federation] as a possible way to clarify this particular cause to CCD. My thinking was that tests could be done on my bees without the complications of varroa mites or controls, viruses, etc. Of course within 48 hours we were getting calls from all over the country! We are fine. I contacted Dennis and Mary Ann at Penn State and they had me do a few things. For one, we put out combs and they were robbed out in a few hours. Two, just the field force was damaged and three, all hives recovered quickly. We have just had another coffee bloom and I have been checking for damage and have seen none to date." <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 17:10:21 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Questions on CCD problem Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit With what hear about CCD, are any package producers affected or seeing similar losses? If the cause of CCD is fungal or viral, one could potentially get it with package or even queen shipments. Waldemar (who has not had to buy package bees in years...) ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 13:23:57 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Ted_Hancock?= Subject: Assume, Assumed, Assuming. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Thu, 15 Mar 2007 09:22:14 -0400, Adony Melathopoulos wrote: Rephrased: which inputs give us >the most profitable and sustainable (eg takes less non-renewable energy, >produces less greenhouses gases, retains more wealth within our rural >communities) increase in yield. At the risk of being told to just shut up about it I'd like to bring this back to the Canada/US border. The study that Adony suggests would be very interesting to read but difficult to carry out. But I expect someone with more time and brains than me could come up with some fairly accurate figures on just one of these factors. I think I am correct in assuming that a beekeeper with 5000 hives in Canada would burn more fossil fuel trucking his hives down to pollinate almonds in California each year than he would keeping his bees in Canada year round. I'd be interested to know how much more fuel would be burned and what that carbon is worth these days in the way of carbon credits. It would then be easy to compare that figure with the value of pollination achieved and with the beekeepers profit. Another variable is how much pollination fees would drop with this new source of bees avaliable but there are a lot of "if's" in that one. I also feel it is a safe assumption that ten, 500 hive beekeepers in California contibute more wealth/volunteer service/stability to their local communties than the Canadian beekeeper with 5000 hives who moves is bees down in October and takes them back north (home) in April. For that matter I expect the California beekeeper with 5000 hives contibutes more to his community/state/country than the Canadian migrating in with 5000 hives. If you agree with these assumptions then how do you think governments should act? It seems to me that some advantage should be given to the local beekeeper. This is assuming of course that our goal is to have safe, stable, low-polluting communities. Braced for the incoming, Ted ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 16:16:00 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Ian_Steppler?= Subject: Re: poor crop in Argentina? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Talking to a independant honey buyer here today, about the Canadian honey market. He suggested the packer who had dropped the prices to 70 cents Canadian didnt get any honey, so has brought the quote up by 5 cents Canadian. Still not getting much. He knows of a load selling for 85 cents Canadian, Talking of the new crop honey coming of Argentina, there is a projected 120,000 metric tonnes high end to 60,000 metric tonnes low end. Figuring that the actual production will be around the 80,000-100,000 metric tonnes mark. Commenting again on the darkness of the honey coming off there. Also commenting on the reported hive losses in the US, and how this might influence our Canadian market. Also commenting on how very little amount of white honey there actually is in the world right now. Thinking that the price of white honey right now is undervalued. The conversation was positive, thinking of better honey prices to come. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 16:44:06 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Wayne Young Subject: Re: the demise of beekeeping In-Reply-To: <000d01c7652b$0d71a820$22bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed At 10:49 PM 3/12/2007 -0600, you wrote: Hi Bob,and All, I have not been on list for a few years, How are things going for you Bob.I remember a few years ago you were looking for some type of marine glue to mend your bee net on your truck.Since I am a lobster fisherman in Maine I tried to find out just what you were looking for. When I saw your name I remembered doing that. How are you making out as far as any bee losses are concerned? As you might remember I just play around with a few hives as a hobby,and for apitherapy.With my leg problems,I do think that it slows the progression down.With these problems I have more or less decided to retire,and spend my winters on the West coast of Florida near Hommassa if I spelled that right. My bees have been doing well.Some how I have been lucky.I have had the same bees for at least three years with out having to replace them.I have not used any apistan or other chemicals for varroa or tracheal mites at all in this time,and have had no problem.I do keep an eye on them,and haven`t seen any hint of varroa at all. As I think you know I live on this is land 15 miles from the coast.I think I have the only bees out here,so I would think as long as I don`t import any new bees,and if no one else brings any out here that my bees should stay some what healthy. Maybe I should raise bees here to sell,if I could keep them disease free.Just a thought. In the past I kept in touch with George Fergussion in Maine.Have you seen him posting at all?I would like to write to him,but I don`t know if he is still around. Let me know how all is going,and I`ll try to keep in touch. Wayne Young ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 19:16:05 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: the demise of beekeeping MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Wayne & All, Perhaps this might read like a direct email but I think the list might find interesting. >How are things going for you Bob I have got another hernia! same place as the last five years ago! Going to get surgery between the arrival of package bees and the start of honey extracting! >.I remember a few years ago you were looking for some type of marine glue to mend your bee net on your truck. I found the glue you recommended and got a patch from Meyer in Nebraska. >When I saw your name I remembered doing that. Welcome back to BEE-L. I have been known to post on BEE-L from time to time. >How are you making out as far as any bee losses are concerned? I had some Missouri hives starve in February. We had a six week cold spell at a time we normally don't see that kind of cold. The bees had honey but did not move to the side to the honey. Wrapping or a candy board would have saved those hives. Most had syrup in the feeder but did not move to the feeder. All were alive before the cold snap. Dead with head in cells means "starve" in my book! Others are strong and ready to split. >With these problems I have more or less decided to retire,and spend my winters on the West coast of Florida near Hommassa if I spelled that right. I am in Florida often. Once you get settled email me a contact number and I will look you up. >I do keep an eye on them,and haven`t seen any hint of varroa at all. I would test as once you see varroa the load can be high. Especially when most are in cells. >In the past I kept in touch with George Fergussion in Maine.Have you seen him posting at all? George posts on BEE-L but mostly on another list I monitor but rarely post on. >I would like to write to him,but I don`t know if he is still around. I bet when he sees your post he will contact you. If not I doubt George would mind if I sent you his email address from my address book. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Missouri ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 16:57:35 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Bees and Green Houst Gases In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Adony Melathopoulos wrote:Rephrased: which inputs give us the most profitable and sustainable (eg takes less non-renewable energy, produces less greenhouses gases, ..... I have never seen this problem laid out in this way and I think it would be a productive way to tackle this problem. Just to add a little "heat" to the discussion, has anyone ever figured out how much CO2 bees add to the environment while collection honey and pollen? How would the output of all those busy little bees be compared to the output of CO2 of the farmer's farming equipment in the production of sugar cane/beets plus that in the production of refined sugar. Just stirring a stick in the ant hill. Mike in LA --------------------------------- Food fight? Enjoy some healthy debate in the Yahoo! Answers Food & Drink Q&A. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 17:55:04 +1300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Bray Organization: Airborne Honey Subject: Re: poor crop in Argentina? In-Reply-To: Ian Steppler Wrote while quoting "an independant honey buyer": > Talking of the new crop honey coming of Argentina, > there is a projected 120,000 metric tonnes high end to 60,000 metric > tonnes low end. Figuring that the actual production will be around the > 80,000-100,000 metric tonnes mark. Argentina now has approx 4,000,000 hives. From 1982 to 2000 their: Average production was 32.75 kgs/hive = 131,000 tonnes today. High production was of 41.2 kgs/hive = 165,000 tonnes today. Low production (1984) was 25.0 kgs/hive = 100,000 tonnes today. To have a crop lower than 100,000 tonnes today, Argentina would have to have had the worst crop since 1984. Poor crop? maybe (see below) Worst crop for 23 years? That's not what the grapevine is saying. Production/crop predictions: In 2005 Argentinean production was estimated at 80,000 tonnes but 107,138 tonnes were exported. Some carryover you might say? Well in 2006, a poor crop (only 70,000 tonnes) was predicted. This was increased later to 80,000 tonnes, but 99,208 tonnes were exported. And now we have another prediction of (midpoint) 80,000 tonnes??? It is quite clear that the Argentinean crop predictions/estimates are recently not accurate and I for one do not believe the numbers that are being bandied about such as in the quoted text above. In 1990 Argentina had 1.4 million hives. In 2000 they had 2.8 million hives. It is quite possible that there is not the accuracy with crop predictions now that there are nearly 3 times the number of hives there were 17 years ago. It's also possible that the "massaging" of crop figures is alive and well in Argentina as in most (all??) other countries in the World. e.g. the 2006 US crop was widely reported on this list as being poor/disasterous etc and for a short time, prices held up against the World trend. (See this graph..... http://www.pbase.com/peterbray/image/75374345) Now it appears there are stocks sitting unsold in Canada with the new crop around the corner. Perhaps I am seen as a bit bearish in sentiments, but if there is an oversupply in the World (see above mentioned graph) then attempting to predict short supply and rising prices will only increase the long term pain. Regards, Peter Bray_________________________________________________________ Airborne Honey Ltd., Pennington St, PO Box 28, Leeston, New Zealand Fax 64-3-324-3236, Phone 64-3-324-3569 http://www.airborne.co.nz peter@airborne.co.nz ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 08:44:03 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: CCD MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, New recommendations from Dennis for those which think they are seeing CCD dated March 9th. www.maarec.org Most we have discussed on BEE-L as possible contributors to the problem but the new information also links coumaphos, fluvalinate and even oxalic acid as a contributor. Again warnings about comb from deadouts. Sincerely, Bob Harrison -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 10:35:16 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John Howe Subject: this honey will blow you away! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Check out this brief article from Reuters http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=3DoddlyEnoughNews&sto= ryid=3D2007-03-16T132432Z_01_L16593689_RTRUKOC_0_US-KAZAKHSTAN-HONEY.xml&= src=3Drss John Howe THe Brooklyn Bee ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 11:07:00 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: CCD In-Reply-To: <000c01c767d9$8c539300$1dbc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > www.maarec.org > The exact quote is: > 5. If you observe high levels of varroa mites, treat them using soft > chemicals, such as Apiguard, > Apilife VAR, or MiteAway II. We DO NOT recommend the use of oxalic > acid, or home > made hard chemical mixtures. > > Why? Colonies experiencing CCD have been shown to have kidney > (Malpighian tubule) > problems similar to those seen in colonies treated with hard > chemicals. There are some > reports that Oxalic acid may damage bee Malpighian tubules. Also the > harder chemicals > (fluvalinate, coumaphos, and amitraz) may have a sub lethal affect on > bees which may > add additional stress on the bees. By treating for varroa mites with > soft chemicals, you > are helping to keep the colonies mite population low while avoiding > the potentially > negative effects of hard chemicals. You can read more into that than is there. The actual cause may be some other pathogen that has the same effect. The advice, however, is prudent. Still have to remember that CCD or disappearing disease or fall dwindling have been around a lot longer than the chemicals quoted. CCD may be something new or it may be old. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 08:20:49 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: Upcoming Apitherapy Conferences in USA, Germany MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Upcoming Apitherapy Conferences in USA, Germany German Apitherapy Conference to Focus on Wound Treatment The 5th annual German Apitherapy and Apipuncture Congress, Expo and Workshop will take place March 23-27 in Passau, Germany. This years conference focuses on the use of honey and other bee products in the treatment of wounds. Api-Expo 2007, held in conjunction with the conference, features Apitherapy-related companies from Europe and around the world. SEE: http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/2007/02/german-apitherapy-conference-to-focus.html --- National Apitherapy Conference to Be Held in North Carolina American Apitherapy Society Selects Raleigh/Durham for April 26-29 Conference SHERMAN OAKS, CA: The American Apitherapy Society (AAS) has named the Raleigh/Durham area of North Carolina as the location of its April 26-29 Charles Mraz Apitherapy Course & International Conference (CMACC). Now in its 12th year, the annual apitherapy training course focuses on the therapeutic use of products of the beehive, including honey, pollen, propolis, royal jelly and bee venom. One of the most ancient of all healing modalities, apitherapy is gaining increased attention worldwide from medical professionals, academic researchers and lay practitioners as the efficacy of the hive products and treatments becomes better known. SEE: http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/2007/01/charles-mraz-apitherapy-course-and.html ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 12:19:38 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: FW: [BEE-L] poor crop in Argentina? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 ________________________________ From: Molokai Meli, LLC [mailto:MolokaiMeli@iglide.net]=20 Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 12:19 PM To: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: [BEE-L] poor crop in Argentina? > Also commenting on how very little amount of white honey there > actually is=20 > in the world right now.=20 > Thinking that the price of white honey right now is undervalued.=20 =09 We are fairly new to the business (3 years) and produce a light to white kiawe=20 honey here in Hawaii and were just wondering why there is a shortage of=20 white honey? Are there others on the mainland US who produce white=20 honey? If so, from what flora? Is the shortage related to the reported CCD problem? ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 11:51:51 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: CCD Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit excerpts from: MYSTERIOUS BEE-HAVIOR www.sciencemag.org > Entomologist Diana Cox-Foster of Pennsylvania State University in State College thinks a toxin may be implicated, because wax-worms and neighboring bees are not invading deserted hives. > Researchers are also looking at bee genes to see whether Cape honeybees from Africa may have infiltrated U.S. populations. Cape females produce their own young rather than tending to the queen's brood, causing the social structure to collapse. [ I have never noticed that honey bees avoid toxins,-- or other dangers, for that matter. I have seen them fly into vats of hot wax and honey, electric fans, etc. They enter diseased hives, rob contaminated honey, and forage on sprayed fields. The notion that they are not robbing the CCD hives because of some pathogen inside make little sense in this light. I suppose the lack of robbing is more likely due to the weakened condition of the whole apiary and the general lack of older bees. The Cape Bee scenario seems rather far-fetched,-- but what do I know? ] -- pb ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 12:21:53 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Ian_Steppler?= Subject: Re: poor crop in Argentina? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>That's not what the grapevine is saying. No use getting in a fit over speculated new crop talk. I am very curious myself what exactly is coming off down there. As is the packing industry, thats why the talk. Perhaps you would shed further light in to your assumptions of a bigger crop than is being talked about, ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 17:48:45 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: CCD MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Borst wrote: > I suppose the lack > of robbing is more likely due to the weakened condition of the whole > apiary > and the general lack of older bees. Could it also be due to the weather, or is this a feature in warmer areas as well as cold ones? Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 15:16:34 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Marron Subject: CCD MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I suppose the lack > of robbing is more likely due to the weakened condition of the whole > apiary and the general lack of older bees. While this is obviously a factor, all yards didn't die as a group. One yard I remember was a drop of 250. 100 were dead, 20 were unaffected and the rest were in a state of dwindling or recovering. The dead had the classic die-off symptoms. They finally began to rob but only after a few days of airing out the comb. 100 yards away, another yard was unaffected, Dick Marron ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 17:22:57 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: GM canola In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I would love to see the full study done on bees preferring non-GM crops since all I can find are abstracts which leave more questions than answers. Especially since they talk of both B. napus and B. rapa. The latter piqued my curiosity. For example, the GM Canola was probably B. napus which is self pollinating, (http://www.canola-council.org/gs_stage6.aspx), while the organic farm was more likely B. rapa which requires pollination and you can grow your own seed (something organic farmers like in a crop). B. rapa is nothing more than a cultivated weed and easily grows wild. If you have less pollinators for B. rapa you will have a problem, but not for B. napus. B. napus sets fewer but larger seeds than B. rapa and also has a shorter bloom for each flower. So you have a natural reason for fewer seeds that has nothing to do with a pollinator. Fewer seeds does not mean less yield since they are larger. It can get even more confusing if you factor in the number of male to female plants, diversity of plants and weedy areas nearby. Plus, micro-climates can have great effect on yields, especially on B. napus. There is an abundance of studies available on canola (mostly from Canada) that show a multitude of thing that can affect yields and seed set. There is just too much lacking in what is available in the study to make any pronouncement other than the researchers found more bees in the organic field than they did on the GM field. To step further than that is speculation and not science. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 18:11:12 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Honey's carbon footprint In-Reply-To: <000e01c7666e$f976d9e0$2abc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The question was raised about how honey would fare against sugar cane in its "carbon footprint'. On its face, it would seem that beekeeping has less impact but all it takes is a few moments of thought to paint a different picture. The most obvious is that we are dealing with an insect on one hand and a plant on the other. Bees emit CO2 and sugar cane takes it in. Lots of it. When you consider the energy required to produce a pound of sugar compared to a pound of honey, we forget that the bee consumes most of its honey production and we only get the excess. My guess is that about 20% of all the honey produced by a colony is excess taken off by the beekeeper. The bee has consumed 80% of the crop which has gone into heat and more CO2. If you ever visited a sugar mill, they use all of the cane so you have 100% utilization. They even use the biomass left after extracting sugar to provide fuel for the plant. (http://www.sucrose.com/lcane.html) So it is a closed system and much more "sustainable" than honey production. Beekeeping is still labor intensive while cane sugar production is mechanical (at least in the US). More cane sugar can be harvested with less energy per pound than honey. That is only a start. The carbon footprint of honey is a subject best left alone. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 19:44:36 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: CCD Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Fri, 16 Mar 2007 11:07:00 -0400, Bill Truesdell wrote: > Apilife VAR, or MiteAway II. We DO NOT recommend the use of oxalic >> acid, or home >> made hard chemical mixtures. >> >> Why? Colonies experiencing CCD have been shown to have kidney >> (Malpighian tubule) >> problems similar to those seen in colonies treated with hard >> chemicals. There are some >> reports that Oxalic acid may damage bee Malpighian tubules. Also the >> harder chemicals There's a whole lot more then "some" reports out there especially in Europe that show OA to be benign. This statement We DO NOT recommend the use of oxalic >> acid, or home >> made hard chemical mixtures. almost reads like a conservative play it by the book kind of government regulator speak. like its not approved by EPA so its damned in the same breadth as home made hard chem mixes. I know of many beekeepers who have followed the literature and correctly used OA for 2-3 seasons with no signs of problems. How many have misused OA? I have heard of a few who doubled the amount of OA in solution or treated 2-3 times during brood season. They figured that 2-3 strips worked better then 1 so more OA must work better too. Old habits are hard to kill but its much easier to inadvertently kill your bees. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 19:59:40 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: CCD MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 16/03/2007 23:46:42 GMT Standard Time, amesfarm@HOTMAIL.COM writes: How many have misused OA? I have heard of a few who doubled the amount of OA in solution or treated 2-3 times during brood season. A lecture at Apimondia in Dublic 2005 described how the concentration of the sugar syrup is more important than the amount of oxalic. A stronger solution with (from memory) 3.2% oxalic was more effective than a weaker one with 4.5%. If anybody is interested I could check the figures to confirm. Chris ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 13:20:30 +1300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Bray Organization: Airborne Honey Subject: Re: poor crop in Argentina? In-Reply-To: > >>That's not what the grapevine is saying. > No use getting in a fit over speculated new crop talk. No fit intended. Just applying some logic and facts to the speculation. To summarise my points relating to the Argentinean crop: 1. Recently crop estimates have not matched recorded exports. So the estimates have greatly understated the crop. 2. They have 4,000,000 hives. A huge increase - reporting may not be keeping up with these changing dynamics. 3. Their current hive numbers will produce at least 100,000 tonnes if they equal a previous *worst* crop situation. 4. Worst crops are always accompanied by lots of noise of disaster, requests for Govt. assistance, other affected industries etc. and the noise is LOUD and nationwide. Their own monthly (Feburary) honey report does not support a nationwide failure ("worst crop for xxxxx years") of the honey crop. Argentina is a large country with diverse geographical regions. The larger the country and more diverse it is, the more stable the honey crop. e.g. the USA crop has averaged 91,000 tonnes since 1980. Its largest was 15% higher and smallest 25% lower - with decreasing hive numbers. Based on kilos per hive, Argentina has had crops 31% lower and 20.5% higher than average. The bandied figures of 60-100,000 tonnes give a range that would be between 31% and 114% lower than average. This is not suported by the available information as above. The same thing happened in the US 2006 crop. A lot of noise about crop failures etc. Outcome? 70,000 tonnes down from 79,000 the previoius year and 23% down on average (remember decreasing hive numbers). Initial crop estimates are normally excessive. i.e. our experience is that final crop outcomes *always* move towards the average from early crop estimates. It seems it is just human nature to embellish and embrace the "newsworthy". Regards, Peter Bray_________________________________________________________ Airborne Honey Ltd., Pennington St, PO Box 28, Leeston, New Zealand Fax 64-3-324-3236, Phone 64-3-324-3569 http://www.airborne.co.nz peter@airborne.co.nz ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 13:33:22 +1300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Bray Organization: Airborne Honey Subject: Re: Honey's carbon footprint In-Reply-To: <45FB1600.9050204@suscom-maine.net> > The most obvious is that we are dealing with an insect on one hand and a > plant on the other. Bees emit CO2 and sugar cane takes it in. Lots of it. Carbon footprint relates to fossil fuel usage or the permanent release of CO2 from Natrual systems (e.g. burning the Amazon forest) or the permanent sequestering of CO2 (eg plant forests that will never be removed). So the issue is tracking *fossil fuel* usage in these industries. Beekeeping is mostly transport fuels and usage of sugar with its inbuilt carbon footprint. Sugar is cultivation fuels and fertilizer. Becasuse it is intensive agriculture, urea is used extensively. Natural gas is the prime fossil fuel used to "fix" nitrogen. Rotating legumes is more environmentally friendly but lowers crop output . Sugar cane might take up lots of carbon, but that is all release back by the time the cane is burnt (for fuel) and the sugar is consumed. There is no permanent uptake of carbon in this system. Regards, Peter Bray_________________________________________________________ Airborne Honey Ltd., Pennington St, PO Box 28, Leeston, New Zealand Fax 64-3-324-3236, Phone 64-3-324-3569 http://www.airborne.co.nz peter@airborne.co.nz ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 00:59:20 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "deknow@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Honey's carbon footprint Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit ...i think you would also have to look at the other impacts of both practices (sugar cane and honey production). yes, bees take in o2 and out co2...but planting/harvesting sugar cane simply displaces other kinds of vegitation that would be growing in the fields otherwise...probably a near zero sum (although sugar cane does fix carbon more efficently than many plants). the keeping of bees, on the other hand, increases the the pollination of plants in the immediate vicinity. if the presence of bees increases the ammount of vegitation (via increased fertilization), does this increase in co2 uptake balance out the co2 the bees produce? i don't know the answer, but i don't think it's so simple. deknow ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 20:12:49 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Marron Subject: CCD MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>>>Sounds like you've seen the effects first-hand. When and where was this? How's the weather up in your neck of the metroplex?<<< I was in Fl in Feb with Dennis and some others, researching. I got to wrap some of those samples. I'm under a foot of snow here in CT. Dick Marron ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 20:37:23 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Marron Subject: CCD MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We DO NOT recommend the use of oxalic >> acid, or home >> made hard chemical mixtures.<<< Brian, This was just a nice way that Dennis chose to say "ease up on the hard stuff." It wasn't a slur on O/A. One of the biggest open secrets in beekeeping is the variety of stuff that goes into hives. Because some beekeepers didn't want too much investigation, they didn't report losses. Jerry was practically begging for anonymous information. We will never know how much this factor blocked the investigation. What percentage of the losses do you suppose we know about? Dick Marron ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 07:57:43 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mountaineer Subject: Beginner question about equipment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Where can I order package bees from for delivery in SC? I am tempted to = order the English Garden hive kit from Brushy Mountain (2 of them) , and have = watched a few videos and also read some books. It appears I need to order extra supers right off the bat, for I want to = be on top of any swarming activities..........I am in a neighborhood, and = am trying hard to be proactive on any problems. Any advice is greatly appreciated. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 09:20:40 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John Howe Subject: beehive decoration MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am working with a community garden in NYC where they want two hives to = mainly pollinate their fruit trees. It's a family place and we are = having a family workshop assembling the hives this weekend.=20 My question is: how far can we go in painting and decorating the hives? = They would like them to be colorful and possibly painted with images of = flowers, bees, etc. Will the bees have trouble recognizing their own hives this way? Any = other unforeseen problems? I have never seen hives done up this way = except the images of gaily painted Polish hive fronts that recently = appeared on Bee-L Yours, John Howe The Brooklyn Bee ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 11:04:42 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Beginner question about equipment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 Where can I order package bees from for delivery in SC? =20 =20 > try http://beesource.com/suppliers/usbees.htm ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 09:43:18 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: CCD MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 16/03/2007 20:23:38 GMT Standard Time, dickm@SNET.NET writes: <> Could overcrowded yards be a factor here? Regards, Robert Brenchley Birmingham UK ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 10:32:58 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: George Fergusson Subject: Re: Beginner question about equipment In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'd contact the South Caroline Department of Agriculture and get contact information for your local chapter of the state beekeepers association, and ask THEM about local sources of packages. I highly recommend buying locally raised bees if at all possible. You're in the heart of beekeeping country and it shouldn't be too difficult finding experienced beekeepers to talk to and a local source of bees. For that matter, Brushy Mountain sells bees. You might be able to get your equipment and bees all at the same time. As for the Garden hive, they're a bit pricey. That said, I was given a hive with one of those peaked copper-topped lids last year and I must say, they're very attractive though not too practical. You can't set your smoker, iced coffee or glass of lemonade on the lid, and you can't turn it over on the ground and easily stack hive bodies on it. Still, my wife has requested that I put a hive in our vegetable garden this year and she wants *that* lid on it. Sigh :) New packages usually don't swarm the first year but of course if you plan on that, they will swarm. Supers won't necessarily keep them from swarming. You will get plenty of advice about preventing swarming, some of it actually helpful, from local beekeepers in your area. Good luck and have fun. George- --------------------------- George Fergusson Whitefield Maine Mountaineer wrote: > Where can I order package bees from for delivery in SC? I am tempted to order the > English Garden hive kit from Brushy Mountain (2 of them) , and have watched > a few videos and also read some books. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 11:56:00 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Benson Subject: Re: beehive decoration In-Reply-To: <007901c76897$0f705940$6700a8c0@john> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John Howe wrote: > My question is: how far can we go in painting and decorating the hives? Make 'em what you want, the bees will not care. Have fun with it! Keith ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 12:58:57 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Pure Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline >> We DO NOT recommend the use of oxalic acid, or home made hard chemical mixtures. > > almost reads like a conservative play it by the book kind of government regulator speak. like its not approved by EPA so its damned in the same breadth as home made hard chem mixes. * * * This kind of cavalier attitude is what spurred civilized countries to enact pure food and drug laws. Maybe you should put on your honey label: "Bees treated with whatever I could buy cheap down at the feed store; Consume at your own risk." * * * The original Food and Drugs Act is passed by Congress on June 30, 1906 and signed by President Theodore Roosevelt. It prohibits interstate commerce in misbranded and adulterated foods, drinks and drugs. Shocking disclosures of unsanitary conditions in meat-packing plants, the use of poisonous preservatives and dyes in foods, and cure-all claims for worthless and dangerous patent medicines were the major problems leading to the enactment of these laws. Though the Pure Food and Drug Act was initially concerned with making sure products were labeled correctly, the labeling requirement gave way to efforts to outlaw certain products that were not safe, followed by efforts to outlaw products which were safe but not efficacious. * * * In May, 1969 President Nixon had set up a Cabinet-level Environmental Quality Council as well as a Citizens' Advisory Committee on Environmental Quality. The President admitted that he had first been reluctant to propose setting up a new independent agency. Eventually, however, he was convinced by all "the arguments against placing environmental protection activities under the jurisdiction of one or another of the existing departments and agencies." President Nixon called for "a strong, independent agency." The components of the new agency were pieced together from various programs at other departments. The Food and Drug Administration of HEW gave up to EPA its control over tolerance levels for pesticides. EPA gained functions respecting pesticide registration from the Department of Agriculture. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 12:59:09 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: CCD in California MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Reports from California * Max Eggman, of Terra Bella, former president of the California State Beekeepers Association, "I lost 835 hives out of 1,000." * Tom Presley closed his 20-year-old Gilroy apiaries and moved to Georgia after losing a $200,000 investment. * "I'm afraid to even count my hives," said Lynne Bottazzo, who combs "better-than-organic" honey from hives in Hollister and Mount Madonna. "I'm down to an eighth of what I had." * Charlie Baker, who keeps bees in Los Banos, lost half his 1,000 hives along with $50,000. * While he said he hadn't heard of any hives suffering from colony collapse disorder in the north state, it has affected beekeepers in Southern California, said Pat Stayer, owner of Stayer's Quality Queens in Palo Cedro. "It's something new that hit the bees this spring and hit them big time," he said. * "Something peculiar is happening," said Eric Mussen, an apiculturist at the University of California at Davis' Department of Entomology, who addressed the Marin County Beekeepers Association in San Anselmo. "Your colony normally has a lot of bees. After a relatively short period of time, you open the box, and there's practically nothing. The bees are gone." -- pb ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 14:20:21 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Pure Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline In response to someone suggesting that Oxalic Acid should not be 'put in the same basket' as hard chemicals, Peter said "This kind of cavalier attitude is what spurred civilized countries to enact pure food and drug laws. Maybe you should put on your honey label: "Bees treated with whatever I could buy cheap down at the feed store; Consume at your own risk." Peter is a great guy and his thoughts and insights have been very helpful to those on this list, including me. But he is dead wrong on this one. In most (or all) of Europe, where it is not legal to use fluvalinate, coumaphous, tylosin, and other dangerous chemicals that are perfectly legal to use in US beehives, Oxalic Acid has been extensively tested and is perfectly legal to use. Moreover, it is a natural component of honey. Any statement that promoting its use in the US is a "cavalier attitude" is just wrong *WRONG*. I'd venture to say that better than 90% of US beekeepers are very concerned about using anything on their bees or in their beehives that might contaminate honey. And we should celebrate this, and not mock the attitude just because some deadwood government agency has not endorsed its use. But...less than 5% of the US beekeepers produce 75% (or more) of the honey. These are the very large beekeepers with 3,000-5,000-40,000 hives. I have less confidence that these beekeepers are 'doing what is right' to keep their honey pure and their bees healthy. -- Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 18:17:17 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Bees dropping in the snow. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Last year there was a discussion on this topic and the reasons for why bees drop on the snow on the ground on cool, sunny days. Is there a way to prevent this useless loss of bees? I heard providing a division board feeder with water reduces the bees' flying. Has anyone tried this or any other methods? Thank you! Waldemar ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 18:51:53 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Pure Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline As a NY State certified pesticide applicator, I am familiar with the widespread practices of 1) ignoring label requirements; 2) not reading labels at all; and 3) using unapproved chemicals. These are illegal practices, and for good reasons. We in the beekeeping industry should be especially sensitive about this. WE don't want agribusiness breaking the law and spraying willy nilly with untested formulas or tinkering carelessly with genes -- possibly endangering our bees and our livelihood. The customer expects to buy food that is safe and produced in accordance with the law. The quality of your product is your main selling point. I am not against treatments, just unapproved ones. Will you tell the customer you used an unapproved chemical to produce your honey? -- pb ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 19:28:36 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Ian_Steppler?= Subject: Re: Honey's carbon footprint Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>planting/harvesting sugar cane simply displaces other kinds of vegitation A large portion of the honey we produce comes directly from cultivated crops. Do we also consider this carbon output? Or do we just simply act as it is merely a by product our bees are making use from? All I know, is I wouldn't be collecting the huge amount of honey every year if the farmers didn't grow the crop that gave me that abundant amount of nectar,... ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 19:33:19 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Erik_Pedersen?= Subject: Division feeder board with water in winter?? No. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Waldemar asks about dead bees in the snow and speculates that "providing a division board feeder with water reduces the bees' flying." The most common reason to fly in the winter would seem to be for a cleansing flight. There are also bees performing an undertaker role by removing their deceased sisters from the hive creating the litter in the snow. Actually I take that to be a sign that the hive is doing what it is supposed to. It looks devastating at first glance but not so much in the final analysis. Water might indeed be necessary to dilute food at times but it is perhaps not the primary need for these winter flights. Water can be obtained from condensation and other external melted sources unless it is extremely cold. I would NOT put a division board feeder with water in the hive because of the "thermal load" it would impose on them. Think about how much heat it could take out of the hive in order to keep even a quart of water inside at whatever "ambient" temperature there is. It is probably challenging enough to just leave the cluster for food and keep what little heat there is in there. Erik ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 19:58:35 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Ian_Steppler?= Subject: Re: Bees dropping in the snow. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>why bees drop on the snow on the ground on cool, sunny days. the loss looks worse than it actually is. When we put out our bees from inside, the first day is always the worst for bee loss, especially if the day dosent materialize. Some fly off worthlessly, and yet others simply stay tight in cluster. Why? Same by bees wintered outside, some fly, and others stay put. Bee Biology at work that I can only speculate on. But one thing I know for certain its just a loss that is taken and we carry on. I figure as long as we are proactive at helping relieve disease pressure, it is sometimes best to let nature take its course,. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 01:43:00 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Adony_Melathopoulos?= Subject: Re: GM canola Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Fri, 16 Mar 2007 17:22:57 -0400, Bill Truesdell wrote: >There is just too much lacking in what is available in the study to make >any pronouncement other than the researchers found more bees in the >organic field than they did on the GM field. To step further than that >is speculation and not science. Speculation is the launching point of forming a hypothesis and, this, is an important step in science. Although I think Bill rightfully draws our attention to the limitations of extending the findings of a study too far, I think some of his other concerns can be addressed by reevaluating the outcomes of the experiment. While it is true that the organic fields used B. rapa, it is my understanding that this is typical of organic canola production. Furthermore, there was a third group, which I made mention in a previous post, conventionally grown canola (ie pesticide and herbicide use, but no GM varieties). Both the conventional and GM fields were B. napa. >For example, the GM Canola was probably B. napus which is self >pollinating, (http://www.canola-council.org/gs_stage6.aspx), while the >organic farm was more likely B. rapa which requires pollination and you >can grow your own seed (something organic farmers like in a crop). B. >rapa is nothing more than a cultivated weed and easily grows wild. If >you have less pollinators for B. rapa you will have a problem, but not >for B. napus. It is important to note that the opposite findings were observed in the study... despite the organic fields having a cultuvar that is more DEPENDENT on pollination, they had a smaller pollination deficit than the SELF-pollinating GM or conventional B. napa. If I understand the problem, the organic field cultivars overcame their self-pollination handicap and still maintained a lower pollination deficit compared to the other two groups. In the authors words: "...we found no pollination deficit in organic fields (me: in contrast to the GM and conventional fields). Since organic canola was B. rapa, we were not able to make direct comparisons of absolute seed numbers with GM and conventional canola. However, because B. rapa is self incompatible (Ohsawa and Namai 1987, Mishra et al. 1988, Zuberi and Sarker 1992), we predicted that B. rapa would be more vulnerable to pollination deficits under inadequate pollinator conditions. Lack of difference in seed number between open-pollinated and supplementally pollinated flowers in organic canola was likely a result of sufficient bee numbers to produce full seed set." >B. napus sets fewer but larger seeds than B. rapa and also has a shorter >bloom for each flower. So you have a natural reason for fewer seeds that >has nothing to do with a pollinator. Fewer seeds does not mean less >yield since they are larger. Remember the measure was not absolute number of seeds, but pollination deficit, which I defined in a previous post as the number of seeds in a pod set by open pollination compared to the number set when the pods were manually pollinated (theoretical maximal pollination). Despite being more dependent on pollination, they had a lower deficit. Furthermore, the conventional cropping system had less of a deficit than the GM system, and both systems used B. napa. It should also be noted that the authors fit a relatively tight relationship between pollinator abundance and pollination deficit, irrespective of cultivar, which is yet another piece of evidence that suggests differences in pollinator abundance among the cropping systems is largely explained by considerable variation in observed deficits. >I would love to see the full study done on bees preferring non-GM crops >since all I can find are abstracts which leave more questions than >answers. Especially since they talk of both B. napus and B. rapa. The >latter piqued my curiosity. I think the experiment Bill proposed would most certainly add to our knowledge of this new area of study. A diversity of studies are necessary to fill out any picture. Nonetheless, I would warn about the "abstract nature" of uncoupling "variety" from "cropping system", as the latter may ultimately be more important than the former in what growers will experience in the world. In the concrete world variety and cropping system are never uncoupled: GM varieties are tied to cropping system by their very nature. Rather than cloud the picture, I see this study describing a strong difference across cropping systems and it begs to be replicated... continued findings of this type would support the hypothesis that GM cropping systems require supplemental pollination to maintain high yields. >It can get even more confusing if you factor in the number of male to >female plants, diversity of plants and weedy areas nearby. Plus, >micro-climates can have great effect on yields, especially on B. napus. >There is an abundance of studies available on canola (mostly from >Canada) that show a multitude of thing that can affect yields and seed set. This is an old problem, going back to the beginning of modern agriculutural science. Agricultrual science always requires replication across multiple sites and years to establish a solid foundation from which to produce something of use to farmers. If multiple studies result in a very contextual outcome (eg pollination only benefits in wet years and in XYZ soils) then the finding may be of limited use. After an initial study, however, it is okay to speculate what you might find next... this is science... it is just important to heed Bill's warning not to form policy on just one study. If I suggested this be done in a previous post, or have been percieved to have wrote this, then I am out of line. Adony PS I most certainly was speculating that pollination, in some instances might be a very sustainable way to increase inputs. I hope I made it clear that I don't really know if it is, but that I think it could be a useful contribution to sustainable agriculture to look into this problem. I hope most of you caught Allen's good post warning some of the pitfalls of this logic... organic apple production being a prime example of where over pollination will significantly hurt the orchardist's profitablility, by requiring manual thinning. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 02:53:45 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Adony_Melathopoulos?= Subject: Re: Assume, Assumed, Assuming. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Driving something around on a truck does not necessarily translate into a big relative expenditure of energy, particularily if the payload will result in a considerable increase in yield. It presently takes 7.3 energy units of non-renewble energy to make 1 energy unit of food in the US (the entire system takes 10.2 Quads to produce 1.4 Quads of food energy). If someone were to do the calculations, from strictly an energetic standpoint, moving bees and, thus increasing yield, might make sense and ultimately reduce the 7.3 state-of-affair. Fertiliser application, afterall, gobbles 40% of the US food energy use in food cultivation... transportation is just a blip. If you can get the same yield by decreasing fertiliser use and bumping up the bee density, then I think bees could play a part in reducing overall energy use in agriculture. No one knows this for sure: I only bring this counter arguement forward to demonstrate that this assumption may not be a given. Allen previously pointed out the possible pitfalls of this logic, his good example was organic apple production where hand-thinning is the only way to deal with over-abundant fruit set. These pitfalls, however, should encourage us to look into the dynamics of this relationship rather than write the whole area of study off at the outset. I am not so foolish, and neither are any of you, to conflate sustainability entirely with energetics. There are clearly more factors that need to be considered when formulating sustainable agriculture than just this one element (eg Ted presents the case of 500 vs the 5000). A lot of these issues, however, are not as readily as calculated as energetics. Adony ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 23:05:53 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Subject: Re: Odors, DL, and Spring Fever... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: "waldig@netzero.com" To: Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 8:17 AM Subject: Re: [BEE-L] Odors, DL, and Spring Fever... >>>Why should honeybee-recruits need anything more than odor? > > Honey bees certainly have exceptional 'noses' but can they smell a > solitary stand of blooming linden a mile away, say, downwind? Interesting though that this same point was made many years back regarding insect identification of weak, or deficient corn stalks in fields miles away. I believe that at the time it the ability of the insects to see infrared radiation (blackbody radiation) was put forward as the likely solution. Imagine someone holding a four foot neon lamp in their hands at night if you can't envision infrared detection at long ranges. As to location of insects themselves, one theory involved wing beats providing a modulated signal, unique to the insect. Just a thought. Nowadays most such research is probably done in some black funded lab somewhere... Tim ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 06:53:55 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: GM canola In-Reply-To: <45FB0AB1.9060009@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill Truesdell wrote: > I would love to see the full study done on bees preferring non-GM > crops since all I can find are abstracts which leave more questions > than answers. Especially since they talk of both B. napus and B. rapa. > The latter piqued my curiosity. Peter Borst kindly sent me the full study. I was correct that the organic farmer had B. raps and the GM crops were B. napus. The intermediate farms could have combinations of both. The use and twisting of the abstract was even worse than I thought. The pollination deficit was not really a deficit but the difference that can be obtained with pollination on B. napus compared to not pollinating it. Also interesting is that the self pollinating B. napus produced as many seeds without pollinators as the pollinated organic B. rapa. But B. Napus has larger seeds so the yield from the GM fields was actually greater than the organic. The B. rapa in the organic fields should have had many more seeds than B. napus, so the organic method was not optimum for seed production. That came across if you noted that the organic field suffered from fairly high pest damage. That would explain the observation of about equal seeds between B. rapa and B. napus, which, all things being equal, B. rapa should have had more seeds. So what we can actually deduce from the study is B. napus benefits with additional pollination and will then have up to 33% more (and larger) seeds than a pollinated organic field. That the organic field is not optimum for seed production because of pest damage and the GM field outproduces it (same number of seeds but larger seeds) even without pollination. Also interesting is that the GM fields were large and organic fields were small, so you had more diversity in the organic area than the mono-crop GM. The organic fields were so small that the researchers could not go the same distance into the field as the GM fields or they would be out of the organic field or back by the edges. So you had closer access to other plants and nectar sources. GM fields were also sprayed with pesticide, which did not help the pollinators. Some of the fields were further north and there were no bees. Since B. napus does not need pollinators, one could assume that they were in this region. With all that it is sort of obvious that there would be more pollinators on the organic fields. We do not even know if the organic farmer/s kept bees. The third group, which was between organic and GM fared the worst. There was another study I read, trying to find this one, that looked at the issues between pure GM and other strategies for growing canola. They found that the problems were such that the in-betweens fared worst, not because of pollination but plant gender, bloom times and distribution of plants. That same study discussed the numbers of empty pods on all canola varieties. Even if pollinated, many pods just do not set seed, and they have no good idea why. There is also a bloom time difference and bloom duration difference between varieties. Lots more going on than any good scientist would like. Got to control the variables. All the trial was set up to do was see if pollination made a difference and it did with the self pollinating B. napus. But that has been shown in earlier studies. Many self pollinators fare better with pollinators. Completely different than the propaganda that bees shunned the GM crops. What does come from the study is that pollinators help to optimize yields on self pollinating canola; they are in short supply; and the more you can get the better off you are. Or bees are good. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 08:16:01 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: George Fergusson Subject: Re: Bees dropping in the snow. In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>> why bees drop on the snow on the ground on cool, sunny days. > I agree losses of this nature are likely not as significant as they seem but with clusters the size of grapefruit, one doesn't like to lose otherwise healthy bees if you don't have to. I also wonder how many of them are essentially healthy bees out for a cleansing flight that just succumb to the temperature as opposed to older worn-out bees that have chosen to take one last flight and die outside, for the good of the hive? I don't know the answer to this question. I've always assumed they were old bees but I noticed a bee on it's back in the snow last weekend when I was up checking stores, it's legs were moving ever so feebly. I picked it up and held it in my cupped hand and after a few minutes it revived, crawled out on my finger, and flew off. It looked like a young bee. Having done my good deed for the day, I went home. I have never seen undertaker bees at work in the middle of winter, even on a nice day. When spring arrives they get busy cleaning out the hive. Bill Truesdell has suggested that checking your hives in the middle of winter is a waste of time since there's really nothing you can do for them and if they're dead, well, they'll be just as dead come spring. Nonetheless, it just lifts my spirits to see the bees taking advantage of a mild winter day for a quick spin. George- ---------------------- George Fergusson Whitefield Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 08:22:25 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: CCD and Parasitic Mites Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed On Friday, I spoke to a state apiculturist, who inspects thousands of colonies. In May, he took samples of bees from colonies belonging to one of the beekeepers who started this "CCD" thing. The samples had very high Tracheal and Varroa loads. He told that beekeeper, that unless he did something, his bees would crash in the fall. They did just that. He still has samples of these bees in vials. He offered the samples to the CCD investigators, and they refused the offer. I find that very odd. Mike ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 08:25:46 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Bees dropping in the snow. In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > >>why bees drop on the snow on the ground on cool, sunny days. >the loss looks worse than it actually is. Looks worse than it is, unless the problem in Tracheal mite. I understand from some beekeepers, that Tracheal has made a comeback this winter. Waldemar...how many bees are dropping in the snow? Mike ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 09:45:22 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: Bees dropping in the snow. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 18/03/2007 12:54:47 GMT Standard Time, gsferg@SWEETTIMEAPIARY.COM writes: <> From what I've read here in the UK, some strains have a tendency to fly under snow, get disoriented, and finish up like this. Others, notably Amm, fly very little in winter, and don't succumb. All I can say from my own observations is that the hybrids I used to keep flew a lot on mild winter days, and did come out and die in the snow. The strain I have now is rarely seen in winter, and stays inside under snow. Are there strains in the US which resist this sort of suicide? Regards, Robert Brenchley Birmingham UK ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 11:09:52 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: Pure Honey Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Greetings! I have been involved with the bee business for more than 30 years. I have seen just about every treatment for every sort of honey bee pest. In the seventies, I sold these products. Phenol, EDB, chlordane, you name it. I watched my boss spray liquid chlordane concentrate on the top of a 60 pound can of honey because he saw a few ants. In all these years I never blew the whistle on one single person. I may have offered my two cents once or twice, but ultimately, it's your decision, and I respect that. I am in complete sympathy when it comes to beekeepers protecting their livelihood and I understand the frustration they feel in not getting the help they need from regulating agencies. I think we are at a unique point in the history of beekeeping since we have the attention of the press and the public. Everybody wants to know if the bees are going to be wiped out. I realize a lot of beekeepers do not welcome this publicity and would rather be a silent partner in the world's agriculture. Personally, I think we are fortunate that the public is being reminded of the importance of bees and beekeeping. peterlborst@GMAIL.COM ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 11:38:46 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Chemicals and Bee Operations MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I don't want to make a big deal out of this, but I am concerned about the use of chemicals in our bee hives, 'advice' given here and the possibility that it will be accepted as gospel, and on a very wide scale our society's increasing tendency to make all of us a part of a 'nanny state'. A 'nanny state' is one where people no longer are considered capable of determing right or wrong on their own and instead must rely on 'the state' (read State, Federal or Local regulation or law) to tell them what to do and to not do. Peter asks me if I am going to tell customers that I use an unapproved chemical in my bee hives? I'll take that as a rhetorical question, as I am well aware that many 'regulators' read postings on this list. But a corresponding question is should beekeepers tell the public that they are using approved insecticides in their bee hives? Including one that if used in the wrong dosage and formulation could cause brain damage? I don't know of another animal used in food production where chemicals are used that poison the areas where the animals store their food and raise their young. Is the use of these chemicals sane just because some government agency said it was ok? Since its use will reduce or perhaps eliminate the use of insecticides for some beekeepers I advocate the use of Oxalic Acid to control varroa, provided the dosages, formulas, and methods of application are consistent with those accepted in Europe and well described in the archives of this list and others, most notably BeeSource. At least one well respected US entomologist specializing in beekeeping has duplicated many of those techniques and travels the country telling of their success, and the safety of the techniques, but saying he cannot advise others to use Oxalic Acid until it gets approved by the Nanny State. I do not apologize for my avocation, and I vote for those who dare to say we have too much of a Nanny State. Taking the objection to its extreme, one could take the position we should not stop using a very dangerous product and substitute a benign product until the State tells us it is ok. That is insanity. But good people can disagree and still be good people. -- Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 15:40:27 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Bees dropping in the snow. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Those with just a few hives can kick snow up over the entrance (assuming the hive is not up on a stand!) and the bees will stay inside until it melts (they will not suffocate. Better to get proper bees though. Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 08:03:37 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: Bees dropping in the snow. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Peter, > Better to get proper bees though. > What is considered the proper bee and where is the best place to get proper bees? . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska USA ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 09:18:09 -0800 Reply-To: Mary Bull - Greenwood Earth Alliance Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mary Bull - Greenwood Earth Alliance Subject: Re: Chemicals and Bee Operations MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit One solution is not to use any of these chemicals on the bees. Some bee managers--as in the permaculture approach to sudden oak death and human preventive medicine--advocate bucking up the health and immune system of the bees, in lieu of attempting to kill the virus. This approach seems the best to me. Cheers! Mary Bull, Co-director Greenwood Earth Alliance, Save the Redwoods - Boycott the Gap Campaign 252 Frederick, San Francisco, CA 94117 http://www.gapsucks.org Chalice Farm and Sustainable Living Center, 748 Montgomery Rd, Sebastopol CA 95472 415-731-7924 - 415-509-1188 chalicenew@earthlink.net ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lloyd Spear" To: Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2007 7:38 AM Subject: [BEE-L] Chemicals and Bee Operations > I don't want to make a big deal out of this, but I am concerned about the > use of chemicals in our bee hives, 'advice' given here and the possibility > that it will be accepted as gospel, and on a very wide scale our society's > increasing tendency to make all of us a part of a 'nanny state'.... ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 10:31:17 -0600 Reply-To: allen dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: Odors, DL, and Spring Fever... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > As to location of insects themselves, one theory involved wing beats > providing a modulated signal, unique to the insect. I have often wondered if, for example, there are messages modulating (encoded on) seemingly repetitive bird songs or within many other familiar sounds of 'nature' such as the 'chirp' of a cricket, or the buzz of a bee? Without the necessary decoder, such messages would be undetectable, but the possibility to me seems very real. I find it hard to believe that birds are just saying the same very limited thing over and over and over and over... Anyone who has listened to teletype on shortwave radio, or a modem on a phone line, has observed a seemingly repetitive carrier which is actually carrying a heavy and unique data stream, and a two-way conversation. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 17:22:56 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Gavin Ramsay Subject: Re: Odors, DL, and Spring Fever... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Allen > I have often wondered if, for example, there are messages modulating > (encoded on) seemingly repetitive bird songs or within many other familiar > sounds of 'nature' such as the 'chirp' of a cricket, or the buzz of a bee? There are indeed. Try here for information on the stingless bee's 'beeps' to inform nest-mates of the distance to forage. http://www.americanscientist.org/template/AssetDetail/assetid/15789/page/5;jsessionid=baa9...#26440 (or Google for Melipona and dance) And for an excellent report on the use of sound/vibration in honeybee (that word 'use' will be contentious though!) try this: http://www.beekeeping.com/articles/us/bee_dance_2.htm all the best Gavin ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 15:15:10 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Richard_Ashton?= Subject: Beekeeping Organically Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit FROM A BEGINNER, A QUESTION: Can bees be raised organically by using the following: 1. Screened Bottom Boards (or open bottom boards) 2. Drone Cell Foundation/ Rotation-Removal Program 3. Syrup & Dispersible Essential oil sprayed on Brood in Swarm Season 4. Using Bee Feed & Syrup/Essential Oil Feed/Supplements? Regards, Richard Ashton Oak Creek Orchard www.oakcreekorchard.com bwoodtx@verizon.net ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 15:46:25 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Bees dropping in the snow. In-Reply-To: <45FD3B91.5060204@sweettimeapiary.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit George Fergusson wrote: > > Bill Truesdell has suggested that checking your hives in the middle of > winter is a waste of time since there's really nothing you can do for > them and if they're dead, well, they'll be just as dead come spring. > Nonetheless, it just lifts my spirits to see the bees taking advantage > of a mild winter day for a quick spin. I tell my students to check on them in late February or early March. There is not much you can do for them in December through mid-February, the middle of the winter in Maine. Usually someones asks if they should pop the lid and check on them in January. I tell them if they are that interested to just put their ear to the side of a hive and hear the gentle buzz of live bees. I have done that about every winter that I can walk to my hives. Usually there is too much snow. Most beginning beekeepers want to pop the lid too often. For their first check, I tell them to check for buzzing and lift the back of the hive for weight. That will let them know if they have to buy more bees (no buzz) or have to feed (light). I have found that most colonies that have problems do no linger long into winter. They usually die early. Most who have kept bees for a while generally know the troubled colonies in the fall, before winter comes. Occasionally they prove me wrong and survive. I also tell them that one of the most critical times of the year is right now in late March through April (depending on the arrival of warmer weather). I lost a colony that I inspected in early April and it was boiling with bees. Had to go away for a bit over a week and returned to a dead hive. Starved out. I was new at beekeeping. Bees will starve late in the season here in Maine and other climates where you can go from great flying weather to a sudden cold snap that lingers. They are brooded up and protect the brood with their lives. They starve with honey no more than an inch away. The easy way to keep this from happening is candy. I put a small slab over the cluster and they will be able to get all the food they need from it in case of sudden cold. Generally they seldom bother with it. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 16:28:28 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: Chemicals and Bee Operations Comments: To: Lloyd Spear Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lloyd wrote: >I don't want to make a big deal out of this, but I am concerned about the >use of chemicals in our bee hives, 'advice' given here and the possibility >that it will be accepted as gospel * The only advice I gave was to stay within the law. Not very radical, I think. >Taking the objection to its extreme, one could take the position we should >not stop using a very dangerous product and substitute a benign product >until the State tells us it is ok. That is insanity. * I never stated nor implied any such position. My argument is not between coumaphos and oxalic. I merely suggested that one shouldn't be critical of another who advocates following the regs. There are a variety of options. 1) Don't treat and breed from survivors. 2) Buy disease resistant bees and use them. 3) Use mechanical controls like screened bottoms or drone freezing. 4) Choose from "soft" chemicals on the market like formic or thymol. 5) Coumaphos? I know of very few people using this. I would only suggest it if nothing else worked. * Following this tiered approach is the essence of IPM pb ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 17:06:35 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: Beekeeping Organically Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Sun, 18 Mar 2007 15:15:10 -0400, Richard Ashton wrote: >FROM A BEGINNER, A QUESTION: > >Can bees be raised organically by using the following: > >1. Screened Bottom Boards (or open bottom boards) >2. Drone Cell Foundation/ Rotation-Removal Program >3. Syrup & Dispersible Essential oil sprayed on Brood in Swarm Season >4. Using Bee Feed & Syrup/Essential Oil Feed/Supplements? > depends what you mean by organic, we have a continuum with extreme organic on one end (input nothing, no feed and let em die if need be) to USDA organic which no one can figure out how to conform to and generic organic which appears to be a wide variety of practices that avoid adding unnatural materials to the hives. Item #1& 2 would give some level of protection to mites. Nothing like testing though to see where your mite loads are. This is also a focal point for any IPM approach. Depending where on the organic continuum you lie, oxalic & formic acid, thymol (apiguard) and powder sugar would all be good "organic" treatments should your mite testing indicate a problem in fall. The bottom board and drone comb will not be of any use during the winter in regions that have a winter shut down period. See the American Bee Journal for Randy Olivers articles on mites in the last 3 issues or so. He is also promising more detail on drone comb rotation in future issues. He also has a website www.randyoliver.com with some of the articles archived. I'm not sure what value if any items #3&4 would provide. If you need to feed bees and your organic philosophy will allow feeding then feeding syrup would be a good idea to get them through early spring or an upcoming winter. Honey bees need some honey (or syrup) in their brood nest in spring to build up and likewise need the same as in 30-60lbs to get through a winter. The amounts depend on were you live and the strain of bees you keep. I would include an important factor missing from your list. What level of mite/disease resistance are the line of bees you are working with? Also does that line have any behaviours or traits that lend them to your climate were you live? Italians would not be the best for instance if you are in the northern regions of USA. A russian or carniolan strain would be bettter. Within each strain you have breeders selecting for various traits that would be beneficial for operating in an organic fashion. I beleive that farming organically wether bees, fruit or animals starts with selecting the right strain or line of plant, insect or animal. I see too many folks struggling to produce something organic and they never did any research on the differences in various plants or animals and their relationship to diease or pests. I beleive being an organic farmer involves more then a philosophy of using natural or no inputs. It is understanding the thing you are trying to grow and also undertand the life cycle of the pest and diseases that will be working against you and creating a system that recognizes these tradeoffs. To some simple minded people growing organic is just not using various materials or practices as if its a yeah or nay decision. Its not that simple if you are running a business and want to be successful. My favorite story related to this concept concerns apples. I grow apples in addition to keeping bees. I had a lady call me and tell me about her 300 "organic" apple seedlings she was growing. She had carefully saved her seeds from organic apples and had propogated them in a greenhouse and nursery. She had done no research on varieties and no research to figure out that apples are grafted from scion wood. An apple seed will produce some relative of its parent apple. Most relatives are often inedible and have no resemblance to the apple it came from. Good luck with your endeavor... ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 17:15:04 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Teaching In-Reply-To: <45FD9711.3010309@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > George Fergusson wrote: >> >> Bill Truesdell has suggested One other thing. It is nice that someone in my class remembered something I taught some two or three years ago. Makes it nice. I will be teaching two classes for starting and first-few-years beekeepers starting Thursday, so the thought that the students are listening and remembering is encouraging. My subject is beekeeping through the year, so cover just about everything. The groups that are the most fun to teach are kids in school, especially the earlier grades. For them, it is a subject of wonder. I have also taught in a nursing home, so I guess I have covered the age groups from start to finish. I know if you ask any beekeeper who has had the privilege to teach others about their craft they will reply that they have enjoyed it. If you ever have the chance, take it. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 17:48:34 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: CCD, pests and confidentiality In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I appreciate Jerry's method of collecting information in a confidential manner and keeping names out of it. Jerry is not government. Lloyd's comments on our helpful government brought back the Alar scandal that just about wiped out truthful apple growers in most states and was very apparent here in Maine. The State government asked for growers to let them know if they used Alar. The responsible ones did and their names were published by the government. Since the scare was that Alar caused cancer, those growers were wiped out or nearly so. The others who used Alar (just about all of the growers did) but never reported it, prospered. They even advertised that their apples were "Alar free", a blatant lie. Truth is, government really does not care what happens with the information they collect, because there are always people in government with agendas who will be happy to let the papers know the great scoop they can give them. I let a State environmental group do a study on water plants on the creek that we front. Next thing I know is the City has declared our area a resource protection zone and shut down most building close to the water. The government is there to help. I became fairly disillusioned with the criminal justice system when one of my sailors was arrested for something dreamed up by his wife. I, in my belief that the government was there for the truth (since I was a part of the government), told him to just tell the police the truth. Never again. The police twisted what he said to fit their concepts of the truth and it took a year of first criminal court and then family court to finally get thing back to what was the truth. He end up being confirmed innocent of all charges and painted a nice portrait of me for my troubles (the uniform did impress the judges). I would never ever have anyone be open with the police again.. I would tell them to call a lawyer and keep their mouths shut, no matter how innocent they are. You are actually guilty until proved innocent. The point of all this is to be circumspect in your dealings with any government agency. You are just a small cog. You may think you are being helpful, but remember that no good deed goes unpunished when dealing with the government. Bill Truesdell- Chairman of the Bath Zoning Board of Appeals for the past 16 years (longest of any) and 30 years in the USN (I am only here to help you and I have guns, big ones.) Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 18:10:57 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Beekeeping Organically In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Richard Ashton wrote: > FROM A BEGINNER, A QUESTION: > > Can bees be raised organically by using the following: Your best bet is to contact the state agency responsible for organic certification http://www.ams.usda.gov/nop/CertifyingAgents/Accredited.html and email them. The problem with honey organic standards is they vary, not by much, but they do vary. This is only if you eventually want organic certification. Otherwise make up a new name for what you are doing, like biodynamic eco-organic and you will be fine since no one will have any idea what you are doing but it sounds good. Also sell high, then they will be assured you are doing it all correctly. Yes, there was some, but not much, irony in the last paragraph.. And that one too. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 17:41:55 -0600 Reply-To: allen dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: Odors, DL, and Spring Fever... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> I have often wondered if, for example, there are messages modulating >> (encoded on) seemingly repetitive bird songs or within many other >> familiar sounds of 'nature' such as the 'chirp' of a cricket... > There are indeed. Try here for information on the stingless bee's 'beeps' > to inform nest-mates of the distance to forage... Great references. Thanks. I guess, though, beyond simple grunts and nudges, in the general direction of food, I'm thinking of a lot greater potential data density. I'm thinking that if we can send paragraphs in seconds on two carrier notes that, combined, sound like a yodel, or on a carrier that sounds to the casual listener like white noise, and if we can hide information in pictures without noticeably changing them (steganography), that critters *could* be saying a great deal more than "chickadee dee dee", "moo", ...or "buzz". ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 17:38:03 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: Chemicals and Bee Operations Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Sun, 18 Mar 2007 09:18:09 -0800, Mary Bull - Greenwood Earth Alliance wrote: >One solution is not to use any of these chemicals on the bees. Some bee >managers--as in the permaculture approach to sudden oak death and human >preventive medicine--advocate bucking up the health and immune system of the >bees, in lieu of attempting to kill the virus. This approach seems the best >to me. > >Cheers! > >Mary Bull, Co-director >Greenwood Earth Alliance, Save the Redwoods - Boycott the Gap Campaign >252 Frederick, San Francisco, CA 94117 http://www.gapsucks.org >Chalice Farm and Sustainable Living Center, 748 Montgomery Rd, Sebastopol CA thats a nice thought on a sunny day with a fancy cup-o- coffee in your hands and a back account with your latest paycheck. for the rest of us trying to make a living with bees, playing save the earth with our bees is a dangerous game. I say this because science and practical experience has shown that no intervention to a high mite load on typical bee stock (they are non native parasites) will cause an approximate 85% loss. some not all of the losses you read about in the media right now are caused by the lack of understanding of the relationship between the honeybee host and the parasitic mite and corresponding onset of natural viruses. btw the chems are not directly used for the suppression of viruses but the varrora mites that cause the nontypical onset of viruses. we are all made of chems, some kill in small doses some in large doses. sometimes the form of the chem like carbon in a very small nanoparticle make the material deadly to humans even though we are made up of carbon. better living through chemistry allows you to read this post on your computer. it also has provided the "sustainable" beekeeper with natural based treatments like thymol, oxalic and formic acids to be used in a prescribed and well researched manner. I agree with Lloyd and would add that the following link (Eric Mussens latest newsletter) http://entomology.ucdavis.edu/faculty/mussen/JanFeb2007.pdf has some updates about Marion Ellis's work at getting OA approved. I don't understand the concern about OA when it has such a long and well researched history in the EU. The EU also appears much further along the way in acheiving a sustainable honey bee industry and has more stringent regulations concerning what can be input into a hive. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 17:02:17 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John Edwards Subject: Re: Pure Honey In-Reply-To: <29435610.1174256648704.JavaMail.root@m11> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've got to side with Peter on this one - Having had contact with the bee industry (mostly from the outside) for a looong time, I usually found that beekeepers, both alone and in groups, were all too eager to get and try new ideas, including whatever chemical they thought or heard could help their colonies. The general opinion where I used to work was "If anybody ever runs systematic analyses of honey (USA or worldwide), the beekeepers are in big trouble". - John Lloyd Spear wrote: > In response to someone suggesting that Oxalic Acid should not be 'put > in the > same basket' as hard chemicals, Peter said "This kind of cavalier > attitude > is what spurred civilized countries to > enact pure food and drug laws. Maybe you should put on your honey > label: "Bees treated with whatever I could buy cheap down at the feed > store; Consume at your own risk." > > Peter is a great guy and his thoughts and insights have been very > helpful to > those on this list, including me. But he is dead wrong on this one. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 20:23:42 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Adony_Melathopoulos?= Subject: Re: Honey's carbon footprint Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I am glad to follow this thread on the 'carbon footprint' and all the angles being discussed. These discussions are helpful to me. I am not aware of research that has addressed the issues being addressed regarding greenhouse gases and apiculture. I am aware that this kind of research has been done for other cropping systems and I have tried to follow the progress of work in this field in the Journal of Sustainable Agriculture. A general trend emerging is that fossil fuel greenhouse gas emissions from agriculture are relatively small in comparison to on-farm sources of nitrous oxide and ruminant methane emissions. I suspect, by comparison, the metabolism of bee colonies does not even register, nor does the carbon tied up in their bodies or surplus honey. I think this really comes into focus when you make the 'leap' to discount the emissions resulting from the cultivation of bee forages. I think this discounting is supportable because the nectar secetion is merely a byproduct which would otherwise be wasted (the crops would be grown regardless if there were bees there or not)... when it is considered that in harvesting this nectar 'byproduct' honey bees increase agricultural yields, thus increase agricultural efficiency, then any footprint bees leave potentially disappears. It is my understanding, that by contrast, the major sweetener crops are all heavy feeders and require considerable amounts of nitrogen to maintain yields. In addition to the potential release nitrous oxide there is the problem associated with nitrogen-rich run-off is a problem. Neither problem plague the production of honey. Nonetheless, I agree with Bill, greenhouse gas production is a complicated issue. The fact that we are not likely contributing to the problem helps me sleep at night, but I agree that its not a fruitful area of inquiry. The arguement I have been making for eating honey over other sweeteners does not involve the reduction of greenhouse gas emissions, but rather to conserve energy. In developed countries between 10-20% of the total amount of energy we use is in the production, distribution and preparation of food. I have seen some nice work where 'cradle to grave' energy use (energy use from the point of the a crop being seeded to the point it is eaten) is calculated for major dietary components. They show that by altering food choices we can reduce our 'cradle to grave' energy use by half without reducing our intake of calories. One study noted that sweets and snacks contribute to up to a third of total energy inputs in a Swedish diet. In their analysis of 150 items in a Swedish diet, they included imported (5.6 MJ/kg) and domestic honey (1.3 MJ/kg) and domestic beet sugar (9.8 MJ/kg). Apparently honey takes less energy to produce than sugar. There is also a 1981 study by Edward Southwick "Energy efficiency of honey production by bees" (Bioscience 31 (10): 730-732) where the authors calculate that while a 1 kg of cane and beet sugar take 4600 and 6900 kcal to produce (ie 1.7-2.1 times the energy to produce than we gain in consumption), the production and processing of commercial honey took only 2700 kcal of energy (ie 0.89 kcal per kcal food value). Thus, cane and beet sugar require 2-2.5 times more energy to produce than honey. Although corn syrup was not included in the report, you have to remember that wet-milling is one of the most energy intensive processing steps in US agriculture - where ADM needs a lot of natural gas to process corn to HFCS, bees do this processing naturally, which is ultimately powered by photsynthesis. Two studies are not enough. I think this should be looked at more closely, using a more representative dataset and comparing domestic and imported honey. Honey use to be the sweetener of the whole-foods explosing of the 1970s. I have heard this phenomenon explained as the 'granola effect'. We have lost a lot of ground in this market. Go to a health food store and see how little honey is used. The sustainable sweetener today is organic cane syrup. I think there is a good case to be made for honey being more sustainable than organic cane syrup. I think the case is honest and supportable... I would feel good about advocating for honey on these grounds. I curious how many other people share Bill's feeling that this approach would come back to haunt us? Adony ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 21:30:05 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: Pure Honey Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Sun, 18 Mar 2007 17:02:17 -0700, John Edwards wrote: >I've got to side with Peter on this one - Having had contact with the >bee industry (mostly from the outside) for a looong time, I usually >found that beekeepers, both alone and in groups, were all too eager to >get and try new ideas, including whatever chemical they thought or heard >could help their colonies. > . so OA is to quote you "whatever chemical they thought or heard could help their colonies" i guess all of those research papers, the EU and Canada experiences are all worthless? Do you realize the paper and historic trail that exist? This is not some basement chemist idea...my freind. >The general opinion where I used to work was "If anybody ever runs >systematic analyses of honey (USA or worldwide), the beekeepers are in >big trouble" so what exactly would you expect to find in the honey from a super from a hive that was treated with OA sugar syrup ? Peter's statement "I am not against treatments, just unapproved ones. Will you tell the customer you used an unapproved chemical to produce your honey?" Sure why not...better then saying I used Checkmite (which is EPA blessed). So OA somehow becomes a good idea and safe too the day Uncle Sam say its ok? Please..... Our government has shown a frequent disregard for animal and human health. Look into the poultry, pork, and dairy feedlot industry and tell me we should beleive the USDA will protect us. If you want to eat a Tyson chicken god bless you, you faithful American! heres just one example of many, of the wisdom of the USDA and the influence of agribusiness and the RX industry that I am refering to: http://www.keepantibioticsworking.com/new/resources_library.cfm?RefID=97314 as others have said before me its possible we will not see OA approved as its shelf life in solution is short and there is little if any way for a large corporation to make a dime on this proven treatment. I guess we'll see who the EPA is working for when its all said and done won't we? ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 20:10:33 -0600 Reply-To: allen dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: Assume, Assumed, Assuming. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Driving something around on a truck does not necessarily translate into a > big relative expenditure of energy, particularily if the payload will > result in a considerable increase in yield... Carbon footprints, global warming, globalization, peak oil, energy efficiency; these matters are not at all simple, but often subjected to gross oversimplification. Value judgements -- both personal and group -- are central to positions taken in each argument but, however, many of the underlying facts are unproven and probably improvable. Therefore any conclusions are necessarily tentative and justly suspected of being highly subjective. Often they appear to be blatantly political. It seems to me that, while attempts to reconcile these matters are necessarily inconclusive, the process of considering them can yield some insights and strategies. To that end, let me point out that the energy value of food is primarily of importance at a subsistence level, but in developed countries, high energy content of foods is often considered undesirable. Other qualities -- non-energy nutrient content, or the nature of these other nutrients is of more interest. If looking at the energy conversion from fossil fuel calories to food energy proves somewhat irrelevant, then other approaches can be taken, such as an economic evaluation. The problem there is the same, however. There are no absolutes, guesses must be made, and the future cannot be seen. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 07:17:36 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Odors, DL, and Spring Fever... In-Reply-To: <01cb01c769b7$04596e90$4b00a8c0@Pericles> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My son is a birder and birds do have a language of sorts. They have a spring song, warning or alert song, mating songs, and I am sure a host more. He can identify the specific bird before he sees them, an excellent skill since he is colorblind, and can call to them and get a response. Also, we tend to think that other species a hear like we do, but many have broader ranges of hearing either lower, higher or both. Think Fido. When you get into the world of harmonics and carrier waves I think we are venturing beyond Occam's Razor. It would seem that a species would keep language as simple as possible to convey information. It took some time before FM radio came along because it was more complex and not intuitive.I have some difficulty trying to determine just how an organism would create a carrier wave and modulate it to convey information. Nature operates mostly on KISS. It is nice that it is spring and we are talking about the birds and the bees. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 11:31:31 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Bees dropping in the snow. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>Some fly off worthlessly, and yet others simply stay tight in cluster. Why? My bees were out collecting early pollen/nectar/water on nice days only a couple of days before the snows came on Friday. After the snows, when the sun warmed up the hives, the bees were tempted to fly out to continue foraging [I assume]. Since the hives are out in the sun, the area in front of the hives must have felt warm and some bees were coming out to check out the conditions... In the past someone mentioned that the bees fly up to the sun and that the sun's blinding reflection off of the snow causes them to fly into the snow. I'd say about 1/3 of the bees on the ground were on their backs and some stronger ones on the snow were still trying to 'fly into the snow.' Waldemar ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 07:01:16 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Pure Honey In-Reply-To: <45FDD309.2040205@mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John Edwards wrote: > > The general opinion where I used to work was "If anybody ever runs > systematic analyses of honey (USA or worldwide), the beekeepers are in > big trouble". > I thought the EU and Japan do just that and the US to a lesser degree when honey enters the country. The commercial folk can comment on US packers and if they do any testing. I recognize it is not 100% tested, since that is cost prohibitive, so some will always get by. We have had many posts on high honey HMF and the EU (and Japan) blocking shipments as well as Chinese honey entering the US contaminated with antibiotics. So testing is going on. There was a test of organic vs non-organic honey ( it is in the archives) and there was no difference between them as far as any additional ingredients. But that holds up in most of the tests made by independent organizations like Consumer's Union. You get the good and the bad in both groups. Often, not because of ethics but procedures employed. They know what happens to a company when contamination is discovered. Spinach, anyone? We tend to think the worst of our fellow man but not of ourselves. Most, granted not all, commercial beekeepers think they are doing the right thing, but some ethical beekeepers may be wrong through ignorance or neglect. They are not in business to go out of business. They want to sell a good product and make a profit. Both go hand in hand. They (and we) may use things that are approved by the government and later find they are bad, but there is no ethical lack there. Even those in government think they are doing the right thing, but they do not have to worry about the outcome since they do not go out of business. Just raise taxes to cover any losses. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 07:20:15 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Donald Kuchenmeister Subject: Re: Chemicals and Bee Operations MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Well, said I am doing my part by doing it organically. I do not or will not use chem's in my hive. www.geocities.com/fatbeeman why am I only one selling chem free bees? Don ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 11:48:24 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Bees dropping in the snow. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>Looks worse than it is, unless the problem in Tracheal mite. I understand from some beekeepers, that Tracheal has made a comeback this winter. Honestly, I've never checked for tracheal mites and assumed my bees were resistant. >>Waldemar...how many bees are dropping in the snow? The bees stood out in the snow but the numbers were not huge. I keep 3 hives at the house and there must have been some 3 dozen bees on the ground. I would collect a handful, warm them up, and most would fly out of my hand - some back to the hives, some away from the hives, some into the snow. The sight of bees in the snow looked worse than the sheer numbers. [The colonies have 5-8 frames of bees at this time.] Still, it seemed like a waste. My uncle from Poland suggested the bees tend to fly out in the late winter to collect water to dilute the stored honey in order to feed the increasing brood. He always supplies water in division board feeders so they don't have to fly on marginal days. He does seem to have a point - plus he's a consistanly successful beekeeper - since I don't see bees in the snow on marginal days from November until late February. I think I'll supply my bees with water, too. I also remember reading somewhere that a comparison of hives supplied with just water vs. hives supplied with thin sugar syrup, indicated that the water-supplied colonies developed at a faster rate in the spring. Perhaps they lost fewer bees to the cold weather and snow? I made a mental note to see how feral bees behave under the same conditions... Since I remove feral colonies, I'll have to leave a couple colonies alone to make observations... Waldemar ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 12:43:24 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Bees dropping in the snow. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>The most common reason to fly in the winter would seem to be for a cleansing flight. Right. Although my bees had been making collection and defecation flights for 2-3 days prior to the snow fall. I did look and did not see any bee stains on the snow. >>There are also bees performing an undertaker role by removing their deceased sisters from the hive creating the litter in the snow. I looked at the bees flying out of the hives and none were dragging dead bees. All dead bees had been taken out on nice days prior to the snow. >>Water might indeed be necessary to dilute food at times but it is perhaps not the primary need for these winter flights. Water can be obtained from condensation and other external melted sources unless it is extremely cold. I observed a line of bees eagerly taking up water from the melting snow on a hive's entrance. My hives have good top ventilation and the hives don't have much condensed water inside. Increasing brood requires a lot of diluted honey. >>I would NOT put a division board feeder with water in the hive because of the "thermal load" it would impose on them. The division board feeder does not need to be full - even 1/8 full is plenty for what the bees can use - and it would take the place of the last frame (away from the cluster). The water, if anything, just like in greenhouses, would act as a thermal equalizer absorbing heat during the day and releasing it at night. Bees would take up the water and transfer it into cells in or near the cluster during the day's warmth or they'd right away use the water to dilute the honey and store that for later use. As far as cold temps, even frozen water will not get colder than O deg C. When it's -10 deg C outside, it's -10 deg C in the hive away from the cluster. I don't think it's an issue. Waldemar ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 05:53:26 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: Apitherapy News Adds New 'Apitherapy and Beekeeping' Section MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Apitherapy News Adds New Apitherapy and Beekeeping Section (March 19, 2007) Apitherapy News, the Internet's best source of information about the medicinal use of bee products, today added a new subject area called Apitherapy and Beekeeping. The new area of the Apitherapy News website will focus on news items in which the art and science of beekeeping overlaps with Apitherapy. Todays news item features a letter to the editor critical of the possible use of textured vegetable protein (TVG) in pollen substitutes fed to honey bee. SEE: www.apitherapynews.com ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 13:02:51 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Chemicals and Bee Operations Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>But a corresponding question is should beekeepers tell the public that they are using approved insecticides in their bee hives? Including one that if used in the wrong dosage and formulation could cause brain damage? I agree with Lloyd. I once saw checkmite strips in a beekeeper's hive with supers on during a honey flow in June! When I told him he was DEAD wrong, he objected and said 'by now these strips have very little strength and I need them to keep mites in check.' I told him he was putting himself and his customers at risk of nerve damage! In my opinion, checkmite should be forbbiden in beehives period. Something is wrong with an agency that approves a nerve agent and procrastinates approving oxalic acid solution. >>Taking the objection to its extreme, one could take the position we should not stop using a very dangerous product and substitute a benign product until the State tells us it is ok. That is insanity. This reminds me of a band of people that refused to pay the king's taxes (approved) and, instead, held a tea party in Boston (very unapproved). :)) No offense to our beekeeping friends in the UK!!! Waldemar Long Island, NY ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 13:48:31 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "deknow@netzero.net" Subject: Re: Bees dropping in the snow. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit -- "waldig@netzero.com" wrote: As far as cold temps, even frozen water will not get colder than O deg C. When it's -10 deg C outside, it's -10 deg C in the hive away from the cluster. I don't think it's an issue. this is incorrect. ice forms at 0 deg c, but it will get as cold as it's surroundings. deknow ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 07:08:28 -0800 Reply-To: Mary Bull - Greenwood Earth Alliance Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mary Bull - Greenwood Earth Alliance Subject: Re: Chemicals and Bee Operations Comments: To: Dee Lusby MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Dee and bee keepers.... One big component of bucking up is to reduce hive stress. Here are some--of a long list of--ways that Serge LeBesque, an amazing bee manager maestro and teacher, who is adamantly opposed to applying chemicals to hives, recommends: start with a healthy nuc (as opposed to a package), position the hive in a hospitable location with summer shade, winter warmth, wind and rain protection (a sheltered, southern exposure among non-toxic, flowering deciduous trees is good), provide easily accessible water with floats, provide an awning over the hive entrance to reduce heat, a roof that wicks away water and prevents condensation from dripping into the hive (serge uses a feeder tray at the top for this purpose and a roof that sheds water away from the hive), plenty of year-round forage; manage the hive so that honey is accessible directly above the bees in winter so that they can move as a group (which they do for warmth) to reach it quickly and easily, make sure there is plenty of accessible honey in winter; do not open the hive on cold days especially in winter, make sure there is room for growth in the hive, position a tray and screen at the bottom of the hive so that mites cannot crawl back up once they fall off the bees--other advantages with the bottom tray are that you can tell a lot about what's going on in the hive by looking at the tray (therefore, you do not have to open the hive as often, which stresses the bees), and moths are attracted to the litter in the tray and lay their eggs there instead of the hive; don't use smoke if you don't have to, never tap or pound on the hive, and sundry other good management practices. Cheers... Mary Bull, Co-director Greenwood Earth Alliance, Save the Redwoods - Boycott the Gap Campaign 252 Frederick, San Francisco, CA 94117 http://www.gapsucks.org Chalice Farm and Sustainable Living Center, 748 Montgomery Rd, Sebastopol CA 95472 415-731-7924 - 415-509-1188 chalicenew@earthlink.net ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dee Lusby" To: "Mary Bull - Greenwood Earth Alliance" ; Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2007 12:52 PM Subject: Re: [BEE-L] Chemicals and Bee Operations > Mary Bull Writes: > advocate bucking up the health and immune system of the > bees, in lieu of attempting to kill the virus. > > Reply: > Now explain what you mean by bucking up the health and > immune system of the bees in lieu there of......... > > ____________________________________________________________________________ ________ > We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love > (and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list. > http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/265 > ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 08:17:36 -0600 Reply-To: allen dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: Odors, DL, and Spring Fever... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > It would seem that a species would keep language as simple as possible to > convey information. Agreed. Firstly, I'm not suggesting that a high density complex message is actually being sent by any species of critter imposed on their repetitive sound emissions, merely that it is possible. We have no idea how much detail is being conveyed by bees in the sounds described in the reference Gavin supplied recently. Also consider the various devices beekeepers have invented to listen in on hives, and which are claimed to be able to predict hive conditions and predict events. Further, I have no idea what earth shattering and bandwidth-hogging messages they might need to send, other than the evening news, the latest soap opera, or the BEE list equivalent for their species or neighbourhood. (See end note). I'm merely pointing out that it is fairly trivial for man to impose quite a bit of info onto repeated acoustic notes similar to those that make up a simple bird song without being particularly obvious, then decode that info. > It took some time before FM radio came along because it was more complex > and not intuitive. That is not really relevant. I think that such an example is looking for more difficult, not more simple modulation or encoding examples. > I have some difficulty trying to determine just how an organism would > create a carrier wave and modulate it to convey information. Well, there are many many very simple ways that do not require sophisticated equipment, beginning with altering the repetition rate, frequencies, speed, introducing warble, etc. There are so many ways that I really cannot begin to cover them all. After all, I believe that there is a human language that sounds to us like buzzes and clicks. * * * * * * * End Note: IF such a theory proved out, the content could be any or all of the above. Communication does not have to be purposeful. After all, commercial broadcasting has proven conclusively that it is possible to commandeer vast amounts of bandwidth to transmit vast amounts of "information" that leaves the listener more ignorant after receipt than before. Perhaps this is the problem with the dance language: maybe some bees like Opera and Geraldo are sending confused messages, resulting in odd and self-defeating bee behaviour, and confounding the researchers observing the dances. * * * * * * * Think you are pretty smart? Try the BEE-L IQ Test. It is really simple, but many fail. Read the BEE-L Guidelines before you post and see if you can learn to remove the headers and entire previous post from your reply. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 10:50:31 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Chemicals and Bee Operations MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline waldig@netzero.com wrote: >I agree with Lloyd. I once saw checkmite strips in a beekeeper's >hive with supers on during a honey flow in June! When I told him he >was DEAD wrong, he objected and said 'by now these strips have very >little strength and I need them to keep mites in check.' I told him >he was putting himself and his customers at risk of nerve damage! This is a perfect example of one of the problems with pesticides, people not following the label. If you use an unapproved product you don't even get a label to NOT read. The MSDS for oxalic is pretty scary, by the way. (See below) >In my opinion, checkmite should be forbbiden in beehives period. >Something is wrong with an agency that approves a nerve agent and >procrastinates approving oxalic acid solution. As I recall, coumaphos was given an emergency exemption at the request of the beekeeping industry. It isn't really "approved" at all. (Section 18 authorizes EPA to allow States to use a pesticide for an unregistered use for a limited time if EPA determines that emergency conditions exist.) The idea was to buy time for the industry to get other products tested and approved. I don't think anyone originally expected it to be still in use so many years later. Since then several products have been made available to US beekeepers. I don't know what is holding up oxalic. * * * Oxalic Acid MSDS DANGER! Poison! May be fatal if swallowed. Corrosive!! Causes severe irritation and burns to skin, eyes and respiratory tract. Harmful if inhaled or absorbed through skin. May cause kidney damage. Route of entry: Eye contact, skin contact, skin absorption, inhalation and ingestion. Effects of acute exposure Eye contact: Irritant. May be corrosive to the eyes. Skin contact: May cause skin burns. May cause severe irritation. May be absorbed through the skin. Inhalation: Harmful if inhaled. May cause irritation or burns to the nose, throat and respiratory system. Ingestion: Toxic. May cause nausea and vomiting. May cause convulsions. Harmful if swallowed. May cause shock. May cause burns. May cause gastro-enteritis. May cause renal damage, as evidenced by bloody urine. Estimated fatal dose is 5 to 15 grams. Effects of chronic exposure: Pre-existing eye, skin and respiratory disorders may be aggravated. Prolonged exposure may cause dermatitis. May affect the kidneys. Pre-existing kidney disorders may be aggravated. May cause cyanosis of the fingers. Oxalic acid is corrosive to tissue. When ingested, oxalic acid removes calcium from the blood. Kidney damage can be expected as the calcium is removed from the blood in the form of calcium oxalate. The calcium oxalate then obstructs the kidney tubules. -- pb ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 08:20:28 -0800 Reply-To: Mary Bull - Greenwood Earth Alliance Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mary Bull - Greenwood Earth Alliance Subject: Chemicals and Bee Operations--PS! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Oh, yes, another important thing: Do not paint the hive (only the exterior corners). This allows the hive to breathe, moisture to escape. I will go through my workshop notes when I have a chance and share more! Mary Bull ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 11:54:20 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: CCD and Parasitic Mites MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mike Please be careful of sweeping generalizations. There are beekeepers who have experienced CCD and who have also had problems controlling mites. We've also seen tracheal mites in high levels in recovering hives (but these mites were not in the same hives before collapse). We've seen CCD in operations with no evidence of mite problems. I just saw a new collapse in CA where aggressive mite treatments were used in the fall, repeated in Jan when a few mites were found. Colonies were strong, wall to wall bees, 4-5 frames of brood, no evidence of mites (two weeks ago). Yesterday, out of 400, only 30 were strong enough to shake bees from, and the majority had collapsed down to 3-4 frames or less of bees, with lots of brood, 40 lbs honey, and frames of fresh pollen. I don't know which beekeeper, which state inspector, nor who among the CCD was offered the mite samples. However, we know mite control is an issue in some of these cases - but this is not simply failed mite control. As per someone among the CCD group not wanting samples -- mite samples per se aren't likely to provide any answers - unless those mites were carrying some pathogen -- and to find this, the samples would have to be reasonably fresh and properly preserved, otherwise things break down and are unusable. Finally, most of the CCD work is still unfunded -- we all have to prioritize which samples we're going to take, analyze - just don't have the funds to check every sample offered -- and at this point, we're not short of operations from which to obtain samples, so we're trying to take samples in ways that will allow us to make comparisons within a beeyard or operation, and among yards and bee operations. I hope this helps clarify things. Jerry ************************************** AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 16:35:06 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "deknow@netzero.net" Subject: Re: Chemicals and Bee Operations Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit peter, although in isolation, the oa msds might look scary, take a look at the one for asprin for comparison....not much more comforting...yet it isn't anything that i would run away scared from. deknow http://www.uiowa.edu/~chemsafe/MSDS/aspirin.htm ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 13:46:37 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Beekeeping Organically In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Richard writes: Can bees be raised organically by using the following: Reply: No Way! See nothing organic about artificial feeds, syrup, essential oils and supplements that actually are detrimental to the bees longterm needs. Besides too many of us are doing it without any of the things you listed, meaning "zero for artificial feed once established as nucs, and no treatments at all period." Respectfully Submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ ____________________________________________________________________________________ No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started. http://mobile.yahoo.com/mail ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 13:52:47 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Chemicals and Bee Operations Comments: To: Mary Bull - Greenwood Earth Alliance In-Reply-To: <006701c76981$67181e40$cd02a8c0@Debussy> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Mary Bull Writes: advocate bucking up the health and immune system of the bees, in lieu of attempting to kill the virus. Reply: Now explain what you mean by bucking up the health and immune system of the bees in lieu there of......... What exactly are you do basically may I ask without no additives to the hives, aka treatments of any kind? Sincerely, Dee A. Lusby ____________________________________________________________________________________ We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love (and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list. http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/265 ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 07:07:47 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Rossander Subject: Re: Bees dropping in the snow. In-Reply-To: <20070319.044337.864.513574@webmail35.nyc.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit "waldig@netzero.com" wrote: "As far as cold temps, even frozen water will not get colder than O deg C." I agree with your conclusions but have to quibble over a technical nit that could be misinterpreted. Water does have a very high thermal capacity. Water also transfers a great deal of heat in the act of transitioning from one phase to another. That means the temperature will plateau for a while as it freezes. This factor can significantly increase its capacity as a thermal buffer. But once the water mass is solidly frozen, the temperature of the ice will again begin to fall until it matches the ambient temperature. Mike Rossander --------------------------------- Don't be flakey. Get Yahoo! Mail for Mobile and always stay connected to friends. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 14:02:29 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: Chemicals and Bee Operations Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Mon, 19 Mar 2007 16:35:06 GMT, deknow@netzero.net wrote: >peter, although in isolation, the oa msds might look scary, take a >look at the one for asprin for comparison....not much more >comforting...yet it isn't anything that i would run away scared from. Well, let's compare then: MSDS Health Rating of common chemicals None (0) water: Health Rating: 0 - None Flammability Rating: 0 - None Reactivity Rating: 1 - Slight Contact Rating: 0 - None Slight (1) Aspirin (acetysalicylic acid): Health Rating: 1 - Slight Flammability Rating: 1 - Slight Reactivity Rating: 0 - None Contact Rating: 1 - Slight Sodium chloride Health Rating: 1 - Slight Flammability Rating: 0 - None Reactivity Rating: 0 - None Contact Rating: 1 - Slight Moderate (2) Thymol: Health Rating: 2 - Moderate (Life) Flammability Rating: 1 - Slight Reactivity Rating: 1 - Slight Contact Rating: 2 - Moderate Acetic Acid: Health Rating: 2 - Moderate Flammability Rating: 2 - Moderate Reactivity Rating: 2 - Moderate Contact Rating: 3 - Severe (Corrosive) Severe (3) Formic acid: Health Rating: 3 - Severe (Life) Flammability Rating: 2 - Moderate Reactivity Rating: 2 - Moderate Contact Rating: 4 - Extreme (Corrosive) Hydrochloric acid: Health Rating: 3 - Severe (Poison) Flammability Rating: 0 - None Reactivity Rating: 2 - Moderate Contact Rating: 4 - Extreme (Corrosive) Extreme (4) Oxalic acid: Health Rating: 4 - Extreme (Poison) Flammability Rating: 1 - Slight Reactivity Rating: 1 - Slight Contact Rating: 3 - Severe (Corrosive) Sodium Hydroxide (Lye): Health Rating: 4 - Extreme (Poison) Flammability Rating: 0 - None Reactivity Rating: 2 - Moderate Contact Rating: 4 - Extreme (Corrosive) Sulfuric acid: Health Rating: 4 - Extreme (Poison) Flammability Rating: 0 - None Reactivity Rating: 2 - Moderate Contact Rating: 4 - Extreme (Corrosive) [I don't make this stuff up] ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 08:15:09 -1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Molokai Meli, LLC" Subject: Re: Chemicals and Bee Operations In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v618) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I am doing my part by doing it organically. I do not or will not use > chem's > in my hive. why am I only one selling chem free bees? > Good for you that you can! We are also a certified organic apiary, but it seems there are certain conditions that are present in some locations that make it impossible to function organically while maintaining healthy bees. We are blessed to be free of these conditions. Perhaps you could share here what you believe is the key to maintaining healthy hives in areas where mites are prevalent. > Molokai Meli ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 15:08:57 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: country of origin labeling Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I have been researching the rules related to country of origin labeling for honey in the USA. If I undertand correctly honey is exempted from country of origin labeling or COOL requirements in the USA. I see Florida and Colorado have their own state laws which include honey. Is it that simple? Since honey is exempt from this Fed rule its a free for all for packers to blend any percent of foreign honey with domestic? I expected something more complex but it appears that this one set of laws is all that is keeping this charade alive. If anyone has other information I'd appreciate online references if possible. Can anyone comment on the state law and its impact in FL or CO? ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 11:15:04 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: Chemicals and Bee Operations MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Don, > I do not or will not use chem's in my hive. > "Here's Don doing a natural treatment for Varroa Mites. FGMO (food grade mineral oil) in a fogger." A quote from your web site under a picture of you fogging FGMO. Are you no longer fogging FGMO? also FGMO is a Petroleum product I think (correct me if I am wrong please) and not a natural treatment. From what I understand there are no natural treatments for hives just natural methods. OK, shoot back someone, I will dodge!! . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska USA ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 19:22:59 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Bees dropping in the snow. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>...once the water mass is solidly frozen, the temperature of the ice will again begin to fall until it matches the ambient temperature. Thanks, Mike. I was not aware of this about ice. I guess the same is true of honey - although it does not freeze solid (or does it at an extremely low temp??), it's a great heat sink/buffer. Waldemar ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 17:31:42 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: George Fergusson Subject: Re: Bees dropping in the snow. In-Reply-To: <20070319.034902.3453.2208560@webmail32.nyc.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit waldig@netzero.com wrote: > My uncle from Poland suggested the bees tend to fly out in the late > winter to collect water to dilute the stored honey in order to feed > the increasing brood. Some time ago I read a very interesting piece on Dennis Murrell's site about wintering, ventilation, and water. Dennis put a plexiglass cover on a hive for the winter and observed the goings on. His observations, as usual, are worth review: http://bwrangler.farvista.net/gwin.htm He also experimented with water feeders. I'm sure you'll find it and interesting read. George- ---------------- George Fergusson Whitefield Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 18:21:03 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Honey and Chemicals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Thanks to all of you who expressed understanding of what I was trying to say, and I do respect the views of those who feel different. I want to add a story that is related. About 6 years ago beeswax in the US was selling at very low prices, while European beeswax was commanding much higher prices. Beeswax from China was selling at prices comparable to US prices. I have a customer in Europe who uses tens of thousands of pounds of beeswax a year to make foundation. He thought he would get some nice publicity by buying US beeswax to make foundation, while his competitors were using beeswax from China. He asked me to locate a source for 40,000 lbs, which is what will fit into a container. I got a quick lesson in the large scale US beeswax market. Not very liquid (in financial terms), which surprised me. But I found the wax, which was held by someone that many of you know and who is very well respected. My customer had asked me to tell potential sellers that the wax would have to be tested and could not have more than negligible levels of coumaphous and fluvalinate. Less than 10 parts a million for each, as I recall. This was to meet European standards. So, I did, and asked for a sample which I passed onto my customer. The seller told us that the wax would test positive for fluvalinate, but at low levels, and would have no coumaphous. My customer got the results from his lab, and they were 400-500 parts a million (as I recall) for *each*. I was shocked. The seller said "I guess the guy I bought the wax from lied to me", and "I wonder if the frog got these results to get a lower price for the beeswax". (The latter really irritated me.) My customer went on to use beeswax from China, he would not purchase this at any price. I was real curious if these results could possibly be accurate. I had kept a chunk of the beeswax and sent it to Calif. to the same lab the NHB was then using to check the contamination levels. I spent $200 out of my own pocket, and the results were exactly as reported from Europe. On a no-name basis, a researcher at the USDA was contacted and the level of contamination was disclosed. The questions were "are you guys aware of this level of contamination" and "is this doing harm to brood being produced". The answers were "yep", and "we don't know, but probably". I'd hate to think of what those levels would be today, just with the passage of time and continuing annual treatments. Let's face it, the use of these chemicals (and tylosin, but that is another subject for another time) has been approved principally for the 5% of US beekeepers who produce 80%+ of the honey and virtually all of the pollination. And if the US had retail petroleum prices on a level of most of the rest of the world, migratory beekeeping (as we know the industry today) would not exist. Another example of the (unintended?) effects of our misguided petroleum practices, and the political forces that keep them in place. And we should sit back and wait for 'the government' to tell us what to do? Go figure. And this is coming from a person whom some consider to the right of Attilla! -- Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 18:21:14 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: George Fergusson Subject: Re: Teaching In-Reply-To: <45FDABD8.8000709@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill Truesdell wrote: >> George Fergusson wrote: >>> >>> Bill Truesdell has suggested > One other thing. It is nice that someone in my class remembered > something I taught some two or three years ago. Makes it nice. I suppose it does Bill. The fact is I remembered that and some other pearls of beekeeping wisdom that you shared with our group. I can't speak for anyone else, but your time wasn't wasted on me :) George- ---------------- George Fergusson Whitefield Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 18:35:29 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Chemicals and Bee Operations In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > MSDS Health Rating of common chemicals > > None (0) > > water: > Health Rating: 0 - None > Flammability Rating: 0 - None > Reactivity Rating: 1 - Slight > Contact Rating: 0 - None > Interesting how you can use chemical hazard info to show something is benign or hazardous. Water actually kills more by far than all the other listed chemicals combined. I believe it is the third highest cause of death of children (drowning). One of my good friends died from it. It is all in how you use it. OA is about 4% for the drip method and is fairly safe, but I would agree with it being a hazard when used in vaporizers. I would guess that cumophose is well down the hazard ladder, but I would feel more comfortable handling concentrated Sulfuric Acid than it. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 18:45:17 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Chemicals and Bee Operations In-Reply-To: <005601c76a38$73ebe220$cd02a8c0@Debussy> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mary Bull - Greenwood Earth Alliance wrote: > Hi Dee and bee keepers.... One big component of bucking up is to reduce hive > stress. Here are some--of a long list of--ways that Serge LeBesque, an > amazing bee manager maestro and teacher, I appreciate your enthusiasm, but all you quoted is normal beekeeping practice and found in every decent beginners book. It read like my notes for the class I am teaching on Thursday. The question still stands which is how do you boost the bees immune system. I can understand how to keep it intact, but not how to boost it. I think that is actually what you are trying to say: by the non-use of chemicals you maintain the bee's immune system It is a common comment by organic beekeepers. Happy to see you starting (I am assuming that you are a beginner and if incorrect, apologize) beekeeping. It is a wonderful hobby and profession and wish you well. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 18:55:47 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: CCD and Parasitic Mites In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jerry Bromenshenk wrote: > We've > also seen tracheal mites in high levels in recovering hives (but these mites > were not in the same hives before collapse). Got me confused on that one. How did they know they did not have tracheal before the collapse but suddenly had high levels afterward? It does not make sense. Tracheal mites tend to be the forgotten mites since everyone's bees are now immune to them. Only problem is we have many colonies in Maine that collapse from Tracheal and all are from hives that "do not have Tracheal", at least before the samples were sent in. I still think that many Varroa problems are actually Tracheal. It is just easier to see a Varroa mite on a drone pupa, than to pop off a head and look through a scope to find Tracheal. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 19:12:52 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Odors, DL, and Spring Fever... In-Reply-To: <00a201c76a31$5940cff0$0201a8c0@Pericles> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit somebodies wrote: >> I have some difficulty trying to determine just how an organism would >> create a carrier wave and modulate it to convey information. > > Well, there are many many very simple ways that do not require > sophisticated > equipment, beginning with altering the repetition rate, frequencies, > speed, > introducing warble, etc. Your examples are not carrier waves (which are used by FM) but simple AM. Bird songs do all those things. You can also look at the songs of the humpback whales which convey a lot of information, just we do not understand it all. I would postulate that the more complex the organism, the more complex will be the song or language. Sort of fits with the central processor: the more ram, the more it can do. There is nothing stopping a song from being a short burst and the receptor able to decipher those bursts. I believe some bats do that, but will gladly bow to those more knowledgeable. In essence, I think we already have what you are looking for all around us. Except FM carrier waves. Too complex and too difficult to encode and decode. Bill Truesdell (who does not talk to whales but mutters to himself) Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 18:55:29 -0500 Reply-To: D Adams Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: D Adams Subject: Re: Chemicals and Bee Operations Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Keith, I have to agree, I don't think fogging FGMO is a natural occurance in a beehive. I also don't recall a study to tell you what the chemical make up is in the fogged out FGMO. I'll bet it's not the same as it was in liquid none heated form. >From the recent post mentality I guess we should #1 stop moving our bees, and #2 stop trying to keep them alive with those bad mite treatments and for those of us trying to make a living with bees,#3 go out of business,then see how long Wal-mart can get imported food. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 20:55:24 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Donald Kuchenmeister Subject: Re: Chemicals and Bee Operations MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello first thing make own foundation. Next go to 4.9 cell that's big help. using wintergreen oils in feed helps deter mites. Look up 2006=july issue of beeculture I am in there giving advice. Don www.geocities.com/fatbeeman ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 20:58:13 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Donald Kuchenmeister Subject: Re: Chemicals and Bee Operations MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If I can put it in my mouth I think it don't hurt bees as it is use for laxative. No bee is free from all mites using Russian helps to keep mite in check along with ssb. Don ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 20:37:19 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: ALDEN MARSHALL Subject: Re: Chemicals and Bee Operations MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=Windows-1252; reply-type=original Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit From: "Brian Fredericksen" > > I don't understand the concern about OA when it has such a long and well > researched history in > the EU. The EU also appears much further along the way in acheiving a > sustainable honey bee > industry and has more stringent regulations concerning what can be input > into a hive. > Brian, Do you ever have the feeling that unless the USA does it, the opinion is, that the results may not be valid? There is so much of "reinventing the wheel "in this world, IMO. Alden Marshall Hudson, NH ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 21:19:56 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Subject: Re: country of origin labeling In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Brian, You bring up a contentious topic - one that many beekeepers here in Canada feel that they are subject to poor labelling - to their detriment. Honey labelling and the grading of the pot's content appears to be lax. Having produced for the French market (and to a smaller degree - the UK market), I suggest that what is allowed over here would not pass over there. Things might have changed since I had bees in France. I remember that there was a big problem over this topic during the last re-wording of the Codex A. The European producers wished to protect the honey and its quality with tight wording - but the Packers and large Importing countries were dead against it as it would have restricted what went into the pots! The latter won the case due to putting forward a veto proposition stating that if the producers insisted on their point, then they (the packers etc.) would veto it, causing the total collapse of the procedure to get the new Codex in place. This effectively would have meant that the old one would have stayed in position - and that was considered to have been totally unacceptable. In Canada, a rewording of labels and what they mean is being debated. See: http://www.honeycouncil.ca/users/Folder.asp?FolderID=4753&NewsID=491 Regards, Peter ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 21:26:30 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot McPherson Organization: McPherson Family Farms Subject: Re: Beekeeping Organically In-Reply-To: <153591.77816.qm@web51609.mail.re2.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Besides too many of >us are doing it without any of the things you listed, >meaning "zero for artificial feed once established as nucs, >and no treatments at all period." Although it is true we cannot control where the bees go. As Dee here has mentioned we can control the level of contamination in our management. Since we have successfully shown that putting artificial substances in our hives is not only possible but helps ensure a more successful beekeeping experience in the long term (short term losses are expected when bees are deprived of the dopes), then we should do everything in our power to ensure nothing goes into the hive that nature hasn't provided to the bees herself. This is the goal of an organic lifestyle in general and organic beekeepers specifically despite what has become "officially acceptable" for legal use of the word organic. Organic beekeepers that are zero tolerant find their bees have stronger immune systems because they eat real pollen, not just neutral sources of protein, they eat nutritive honey with its trace elements and not neutral bleached white sugar or hfcs. And they certainly don't suffer from over medication, which in the short term seems to help (as it did seem to help historically but is now being seen as a cause of the problem by many even here), however in the long term does nothing except allow us to propagate bees which would have been culled by nature, thus preventing nature from doing her job which is ensuring that we only have strong bees with strong immune systems and capable of withstanding pressures from varroa and tracheal mites and the diseases they vector in. The proof is in the pudding which specifically translated means...I continue to still have bees and they still haven't been treated. Scot McPherson McPherson Family Farms Davenport, IA ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 21:45:36 -0600 Reply-To: allen dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: Odors, DL, and Spring Fever... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> Well, there are many many very simple ways that do not require >> sophisticated equipment, beginning with altering the repetition rate, >> frequencies, speed, introducing warble, etc. > Your examples are not carrier waves... Actually, I am suggesting that the obvious bird songs could be the carriers and be modulated with the actual message. (Play eerie music here). There is no lower bound to carrier frequencies. As a Navy guy, you might recall some VLF stuff. > You can also look at the songs of the humpback whales which convey a lot > of information, just we do not understand it all. OK. Agreed, but, BTW they were asking about you the other day. > I would postulate that the more complex the organism, the more complex > will be the song or language. Sort of fits with the central processor: the > more ram, the more it can do. We're really reaching here, but I'm with you. After all, we are hypothesizing. Next thing you know we'll be saying bees can play cards -- or point to food sources. > There is nothing stopping a song from being a short burst and the receptor > able to decipher those bursts. I believe some bats do that, but will > gladly bow to those more knowledgeable. In essence, I think we already > have what you are looking for all around us. Except FM carrier waves. Too > complex and too difficult to encode and decode. Leave it to those uppity primates. They do it all the time, for no discernable useful purpose. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 04:04:29 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "deknow@netzero.net" Subject: Re: Chemicals and Bee Operations Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit also, in reading this chart, it seems strange that salt and asprin seem to have the same "health rating". ...also the fact that the msds for asprin says "harmful if swallowed" is kind of amusing....and (aside from it being bad for plumming), who would be afraid to use draino (lye)? i'm not sure how useful these "health ratings" are. deknow ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 21:08:53 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: joe carson Subject: Re: Chemicals and Bee Operations In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Food grade mineral oil is a petroleum-based mineral oil that is intended for internal consumption. It is used as a food additive and as a lubricant in enema preparations. Dr. Joe Carson Alaska _________________________________________________________________ Exercise your brain! Try Flexicon. http://games.msn.com/en/flexicon/default.htm?icid=flexicon_hmemailtaglinemarch07 ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 07:36:49 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Beekeeping Organically MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Scot McPherson: > Organic beekeepers that are zero tolerant find their bees have stronger > immune systems I am interested to know how you measure the strength of a bees immune system. (Just to make my position clear, I do feed a small amount of fondant, but have never fed pollen substitute). Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 08:00:10 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: Chemicals and Bee Operations Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Mon, 19 Mar 2007 18:35:29 -0400, Bill Truesdell >Water actually kills more by far than all the other listed chemicals combined. It is all in how you use it. Of course it's all in how it's used! Water does not kill people on account of its chemical properties! The MSDS is addressing the chemical properties of the substance. Look, take a tablespoon of each of these things pure, then you'll understand the relative danger. When you buy lye (oven cleaner), for example, it has been prediluted and it is carefully labeled to inform the consumer about how to use it correctly. I use a product which contains oxalic acid to remove stains from the sinks and bath tub. My take on all of this is that responsible people will have no problem handling oxalic acid, formic acid, acetic acid, you name it. But somebody who is unfamiliar with the intensity of pure acids (or alkalis) ought not to be messing around with them. That's all. When you recommend to somebody to use a dangerous acid, you should warn them. When I worked at the lab, I put together and maintained a notebook which contained the MSDS for every chemical in the place, including relatively benign stuff such as detergent and paint. I asked the Safety Inspector "Why worry about stuff like detergent?" He said: "When used in in large quantities many ordinary substances can be dangerous." Of course, the corollary is that many dangerous substances are perfectly safe when properly diluted and handled with care. One time we dumped out some left-over corn syrup and it killed the grass quicker than round-up. Stayed dead a long time too. pb ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 11:20:28 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Chemicals and Bee Operations MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Food grade mineral oil is a petroleum-based mineral oil that is intended > for internal consumption. It is used as a food additive and as a lubricant > in enema preparations. > Dr. Joe Carson Food grade mineral oil is banned in the EU. We now use vegetable oils. Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 12:34:54 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Approved vs Allowed and Safety. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>This is a perfect example of one of the problems with pesticides, people not following the label. As with anything, you must consider that there will always be some folks who will not read or not follow the label. How can one in authority then sleep soundly at night knowing there is a legal agent used in bee hives that attacks the nervous system of humans? I am sure you'll agree that checkmite and OA are not in the same class of chemicals as far as the risk of exposure. >>If you use an unapproved product you don't even get a label to NOT read. You got a point on not having a label. However, there are OA preparation & application procedures from countries that are not banana republics. (One does not just sprinkle OA crystals into a hive.) Will all the people follow the procedures? No, just like with approved products. I don't think one can assure 100% adherence with anything unless you inspect everyone 100%. >>The MSDS for oxalic is pretty scary, by the way. (See below) The words are scary but not OA itself. 'May be fatal if swallowed' - who would want to swallow OA crystals? The stuff would turn your mouth into a pretzel before you ingested enough to kill you. You'd really have to force this stuff down your throut to hurt yourself. I know there are masochists out there but then you have to ban 90% of what is out there. The MSDS warnings are proper though and mean that the applicator needs to take basic precautions - unlike checkmite, there is no need for nitrile gloves here though!! - but the potential for honey contamination with OA is much, much smaller than with the hard chems. Especially since OA naturally occurs in honey. I would never personally use honey from ANY beekeeper using checkmite but I would use honey from ANY beekeeper who uses OA exclusively. The OA I use is manufactured by DAP. I got the MSDS on their OA before even considering to use it. Nothing in the MSDS scared me. >>As I recall, coumaphos was given an emergency exemption at the request of the beekeeping industry. So this was another cave-in to an industry lobby with insufficient regard for the consumer? Sounds familiarly unpleasant to me. In my opinion, once again the government has failed its citizenry. Do no harm before you do anything should be the golden rule. >>It isn't really "approved" at all. (Section 18 authorizes EPA to allow States to use a pesticide for an unregistered use for a limited time if EPA determines that emergency conditions exist.) Ok. I don't understand the difference between 'approval' and 'allowance' but this is not right. I can buy and use checkmite from any beekeepings supply house without the EPA determining if I have some kind of emergency conditions. This is a legal loophole at best. >>The idea was to buy time for the industry to get other products tested and approved. I don't think anyone originally expected it to be still in use so many years later. Sounds like a thimoresol mercury in baby vaccines case to me. I think the risks are too high to allow a chemical of this type for any term use. >>I don't know what is holding up oxalic. I don't know either. There probably isn't a lobby pushing it strongly through. The last I heard OA was to be approved sometime this year. Peter, I understand your position and respect your attitude that we should stick to the laws of the land. Nothing wrong with that except I just think that our goverment is not nimble enough to protect the consumers. Waldemar ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 09:08:55 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Chemicals and Bee Operations In-Reply-To: <008801c76ae1$c39cd690$17946a58@office> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Edwards wrote: > > Food grade mineral oil is banned in the EU. We now use vegetable oils. > Interesting. Why the ban on FGMO and shift to veggie oils? Other than the bees really do not need an enema. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 05:01:04 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Grant Gillard Subject: Re: Chemicals and Bee Operations In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit There seems to be a lot of latitude in what constitutes "natural." I don't use "chemicals" either, but then the entire world is made up of chemicals so you got me there! Just to add my 2 cents, I prefer fogging canola oil. It is a botanical oil rather than a petroleum product. Some people think this is better. Since I like those people I tend to agree. And that may be at the crossroads of this issue: we tend to agree with those we like. Grant Jackson, MO --------------------------------- We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love (and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 16:20:54 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Chemicals and Bee Operations MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill Truesdell asked: > Interesting. Why the ban on FGMO and shift to veggie oils? Other than the > bees really do not need an enema. It is banned in food, e.g. sultanas use to be coated in FGMO to stop them sticking together, now they have vegetable oil. Peter ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 13:33:11 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Steve_Noble?= Subject: Beekeeping Organically Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dee Lusby said; See nothing organic about artificial feeds, syrup,essential oils and supplements that actually aredetrimental to the bees longterm needs. It seems to me that a distinction could be made between natural beekeeping and organic beekeeping, and that in either case, where one draws the defining line is somewhat arbitrary. Natural beekeeping would be more along the lines of what the Lusbys do, and it is easy to see how that would also qualify as organic beekeeping; no treatments, no supplements, nothing. But then is it even more natural, and therefore more in the long term interest of the bees to use Kenyan top bar hives and let the bees decide for themselves what size cell they will make? When it comes to natural, the minute humans get involved the question gets raised as to where you draw the line. If you use a substance which is naturally occurring in honey, such as formic acid, that might reasonably be thought to go beyond what is natural, but then again it might not. After all putting bees in boxes with rectangular frames and stamped out sheets of foundation might not be considered a natural thing to do. But what the heck. I get even more confused when we talk about what is organic and what is not. Some would say that what is organic is determined by the degree to which you keep things natural, letting the bees find the strength to deal with parasites and pathogens more or less on their own. Others would allow organic to include the use of substances which occur in nature, like essential oils and formic and oxalic acids, in ways which do not raise the levels of those substances in the honey. Also, if you feed syrup at critical points, in such a way as to prevent it from being moved into the supers, is the honey you extract from those supers therefore not organic? When we talk about what is organic are we talking about the process or the product or both? I like the idea of things being natural and organic, and I think its a good strategy to not allow the bees to get too dependent, if at all, on substances and treatments in order to stay alive. But surely there is enough ambiguity in those terms to allow for some degree of flexibility in methods. I need for there to be some flexibility because at my level of beekeeping (4-8 hives) I cant afford to keep risking all my colonies in order to get to a place where they "might" survive without me doing anything to keep them going. On the other hand I do want to be able to say to people I give or sell my honey to that it is a natural and healthy thing to eat. Steve Noble ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 11:45:43 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: Chemicals and Bee Operations MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, Is FGMO an approved substance for treating bee hives? . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska USA ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 17:18:47 -0500 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Chemicals and Bee Operations--PS! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > One solution is not to use any of these chemicals on the bees. > Oh, yes, another important thing: Do not paint the hive (only the > exterior corners). This allows the hive to breathe, moisture to > escape. The bees do a fine job of ventilating and controlling the humidity. They do such a fine job that they can keep the brood area very humid and warm (as is required to raise brood) while at the same time, evaporating nectar into honey only a few feet away. Who suddenly proposes that they need any help from the beekeeper to do this, or that painted woodenware was a possible hindrance to hive climate control? > I will go through my workshop notes when I have a chance and share > more! Sounds like you attended an interesting "workshop". Could you tell us who proposed these highly creative and innovative approaches to such complex issues? > Some bee managers... advocate bucking up the health and immune system > of the bees, in lieu of attempting to kill the virus. And what specific steps might one take to "buck up the immune system" of bees? ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 15:13:03 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Adrian Wenner Subject: Odors, DL, and Spring Fever... Comments: cc: JoTraynor@aol.com In-Reply-To: <45FF18F4.2010707@suscom-maine.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v624) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit [ Especially "spring fever" ] On Mar 19, 2007, at 4:12 PM, Bill Truesdell wrote (in part): > I would postulate that the more complex the organism, the more > complex will be the song or language. Sort of fits with the central > processor: the more ram, the more it can do. Allen Dick responded (in part): "We're really reaching here, but I'm with you. After all, we are hypothesizing. Next thing you know we'll be saying bees can play cards -- or point to food sources." On that point you might all go back to a "tongue in cheek" letter by Joe Traynor, published in the October 2000 issue of BEE CULTURE. I give you here only one paragraph: "Scientists in Belgium, using electron microscopes, have discovered tiny etchings at the bottom of bee comb cells. At first, these marks were thought to be random, but careful study has revealed a true bee language. The markings are believed to be made by specialized workers that researchers have temporarily dubbed 'Library bees'." The exotic really sells, as evidenced by the fact that some people swallowed Joe's spoof, "hook, line, and sinker." Adrian Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home office phone) 967 Garcia Road wenner@lifesci.ucsb.edu Santa Barbara, CA 93103 www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/index.htm "No one can walk backward into the future." (Chinese fortune cookie) ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 20:54:19 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Gavin Ramsay Subject: Re: Bees dropping in the snow. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi George Thanks for the link - you were right, another very interesting piece from Dennis Murrell: > http://bwrangler.farvista.net/gwin.htm Here in E Scotland - not usually regarded as in the same climate zone as Dennis' Wyoming - the unusually warm spring just reverted to winter for a few days. Snow showers and a cold breeze. Yesterday I looked at my bees near midday. Despite the cold breeze, the sun was encouraging a lot of activity. Why? No nectar to speak of in these cold early spring days. Must be pollen I thought - as they have been stimulated into raising brood by the warmer weather and coming spring. No - no pollen coming in at all, they were all busy collecting water from some discarded children's garden plasticware. Presumably at this time of year their need to exploit honey stores rockets, and collecting water becomes priority number 1 - even when the cold makes it risky to do so. Should we all be trying a water-filled division board feeder, like Dennis, to save them from perilous journeys in the cold? all the best Gavin ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 06:45:17 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Beekeeping Organically In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Steve had a nice, reasoned post on natural vs organic. The problem is not with the terms but those who profess to follow them. There is nothing new here, since when faith is involved, we all have our own benchmarks as to what is the true faith. Technically, organic and natural are defined by what you can legally put on a label. The problems arise in the fact that the terms are not as stringent or loose as some would want. For example. Much has been made by some on this list that things like pesticides, antibiotics and chemicals cannot be used in organic practices. That is not true. hey are allowed in many specific areas of the organic world. Some, usually those who do not have to make a living, decry their use, but the practical know that those things are needed, such as in animal husbandry or farming. So they are approved. There is an industry in the production of organic "pest controls" which in any other world would be called pesticides. Just they come from "nature" whose first name is Ortho and runs a plant in Ohio. The problem with the honey standard is it was developed here in Maine by people who really did not understand bees, but kept them. They are probably the most stringent standard for any organic crop. Maine Organic Gardner's and Farmer's Association (MOGFA) approved the standards and they migrated to the national level. MOGFA is probably one of the strongest and listened to national organic organizations. It also is pragmatic, since the farmers want to make a living. The problem with the beekeeping side is there were and are few organic beekeepers in Maine and none were commercial (make a living from it), so the standards stuck and continue to be unrealistic (in my opinion). They did fit the beekeeper who made them up some ten or more years ago. I doubt if he still keeps bees. So anyone wanting to know if they are organic or natural beekeepers will not find the answer here. Too much opinion and faith. Just check what you can put on the label, and you are at least blessed by Uncle Sam. He even has a website. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 11:31:07 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Odors, DL, and Spring Fever... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>Next thing you know we'll be saying bees can play cards -- or point to food sources. Has anyone ever investigated and determined if bees can communicate vocally (includes vibrations)? Bees make all kinds of buzzing noises that could be useful. I don't think they buzz for the sake of buzzing alone. Waldemar Long Island, NY ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 10:25:18 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: Chemicals and Bee Operations--PS! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 06:18 PM 3/20/2007, you wrote: >> Oh, yes, another important thing: Do not paint the hive (only the >> exterior corners). This allows the hive to breathe, moisture to >> escape. I've constantly seen advise such as this. Many times it's stated not to paint the inside of the hive 'because the wood absorbs extra moisture in the hive', or similar statements. There a couple of problems with this theory. First, unless you rotate your boxes often, once the wood becomes saturated it provides no more benefit. Second, if your bees consume 60 pounds of honey over the winter, they will emit nearly 40 pounds of water (if my chemistry is correct), or about 4.7 gallons of water. Exactly how much do you expect two deep bodies to absorb or how fast will 5 gallons of water pass though 3/4" of solid wood. (And if it did, your hives would rot in no time) Bees also tend to put a thin coat of propolis on the inside of the hive, effectively painting the inside of the hive themselves. And finally, many have used plastic hive bodies with great success and these bodies have no ability to absorb water. So in my own opinion, providing proper ventilation is far more important. But this is far from new news as the books I've been reading from the 1850's say basically the exact same thing. Not painting the hive, or using some protective finish or rot resistant wood (cedar, etc.) sounds like a great thing for beekeeping supply companies. They'll be happy to sell you new equipment every year or two. -Tim ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 09:02:55 -0800 Reply-To: Mary Bull - Greenwood Earth Alliance Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mary Bull - Greenwood Earth Alliance Subject: Re: Chemicals and Bee Operations--PS! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Well, Tim and Bee keepers, This step for reducing stress was in the service of good ventilation, and it was just one thing in a long list, a few of the highlights of which I offered to the group. Cheers, Mary Bull, Co-director Greenwood Earth Alliance, Save the Redwoods - Boycott the Gap Campaign 252 Frederick, San Francisco, CA 94117 http://www.gapsucks.org Chalice Farm and Sustainable Living Center, 748 Montgomery Rd, Sebastopol CA 95472 415-731-7924 - 415-509-1188 chalicenew@earthlink.net ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Arheit" > So in my own opinion, providing proper ventilation is far more important.... ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 15:56:43 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?B?QXJpIFNlcHDkbOQ=?= Subject: Re: Beekeeping Organically MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Looks like the question what is organic is much more difficult in USA than in EU EU made common basic rules for organic production many years ago. From my opinion customers trust in them, and value organich honey for better price. 10 - 25 % higher price. The word organic can not appear in any way in the labes if the production has not followed the rules. There is also a special visual lable for all organic products. As far as I understand the imported organic honey from outside EU must have been produced according the same rules. The most important rules are: Feeding mainly by organic honey. Organic sugar only allowed for special reasons. No synthetic varroa micticides ( kumafoss, fluvalinates). No antibiotics allowed. For varroa oxalic and formic acids, and thymol ok. Wooden boxes, excluders ok Screened bottom board ok. Foundations can be used from organic wax Artificial insamination ok, wing clipping of quees not. Pollen or supplement feeding not allowed. Hives should be placed so that they can collect the pollen they need Area within 3 km of apiarys mostly forest, or oganic farmed or farmed by limited fertilization. Area with in 6 km of hives can not have sugar mills, garbage dumps or other places that could danger the products. Records of all apiaries, all hives and their movements, all work done with bees, about medications and feeding, amounts of honey extracted and sold. Inspectons by state officilas at least once a year. Beekeepers pays the inspections. After starting the organic way beekeeper must follow the rules one year before the honey can be sold as organic. I am now in the end of this first year. The honey I extract in July will be the first that I can sell as organic. Don't know yet if I get so much better price for it that it will cover all paperwork and other expences, but hope it will. I am not saying that I think all the rules are logical and I would think that they are good. But the fact is that they are the rules, and that is the only way to produce organicly here. Reading this discussion has made me realize that one set of rules is a very good thing for beekeepers in EU. Now there is no unfair labelling by beekeepers who think organic demands are less than what neighbour beekeepers does. Ari Seppl Finland ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 13:17:46 -0600 Reply-To: allen dick Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: Chemicals and Bee Operations--PS! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > This step for reducing stress was in the service of good ventilation, and > it > was just one thing in a long list, a few of the highlights of which I > offered to the group... Have you read the BEE-L archives at all? They go back almost two decades. http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/archives/bee-l.html * * * * * * BEE-L is populated largely by experienced beekeepers, including advanced and beginner hobbyists, bee professionals, writers, authors, editors, extension people and researchers, most with decades of experience. Most, if not all, read widely and familiar with the basics. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 19:17:44 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Beekeeping Organically Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>Artificial insamination ok, wing clipping of quees not. This is interesting - why clipping queens is not organic? Waldemar (who produces natural honey without organic claims :) ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 17:16:34 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: George Fergusson Subject: Re: Bees dropping in the snow. In-Reply-To: <009701c76b31$eec1db40$04000005@mshome.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gavin Ramsay wrote: > Presumably at this time of year their need to exploit honey > stores rockets, and collecting water becomes priority number > 1 - even when the cold makes it risky to do so. Should we > all be trying a water-filled division board feeder, like > Dennis, to save them from perilous journeys in the cold? > Hello Gavin- An interesting suggestion! It actually makes more sense the more one thinks about it. Walt Wright has written about bees using water to thin out honey when they begin brood rearing in the spring- I seem to recall reading something to this effect in a recent Bee Culture. In the heat of the summer I have put Boardman feeders containing water on some of my larger hives and was fascinated to see the water being used up at a good clip. For all the potential benefits of providing a division board feeder for water, I don't think I'd like to give up a frame for that purpose. This time of year, perhaps a soap dish of water on the landing board with a sponge in it might serve to give the bees a convenient source of water right by the entrance that they could collect water from even on a cold day, without having to fly. I think I'll try that this weekend and see what happens. George- ---------------- George Fergusson Whitefield Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 07:24:49 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: queenbee Subject: Re: Chemicals and Bee Operations--PS! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Oh, yes, another important thing: Do not paint the hive (only the > exterior corners). This allows the hive to breathe, moisture to > escape. Tim wrote a good answer to this but let me add another dimension. If you do not paint the inside but paint the outside then the outside will not absorb moisture and the inside will. So the inside is being subjected to a higher moisture content than the outside. This means the inside will swell and the outside not. This is until such time as the whole piece of wood is in equilibrium. This will take a while so you have the situation where the inside is swelling, the outside not so you have stresses being created in the wood which will allow for warping. If you do not paint any side, then the outside is also being subjected to drying stresses from the sun and the warping will be more excessive. This warping normally takes the form of cupping, since the outside is drier than the inside and will be very pronounced in back cut boards. If it is quarter cut then there will not be a lot of cupping. However most wider boards, such as bee boxes, are back cut to allow for maximum width when sawing. Knew all those years in Forestry dealing with timber would one day come in handy. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA Had a look at www.apimondia2007.com ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 18:09:11 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Beekeeping Organically MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Ari & All, >and value organich honey for better price. 10 - 25 % higher price. Seems like a lot of extra work for only 10-25% higher price. For the U.S. migratory beekeeper finding locations for water white honey and getting the honey off before darker flowers bloom will get you 10-25% higher price. >The most important rules are: For varroa oxalic and formic acids, and thymol ok. Looks like a PPM of the above would be set. > wing clipping of queens not. How does the organic status change when the hive has a clipped wing queen as opposed to the hive which is headed by a queen without wings clipped? > Beekeepers pays the inspections. How much U.S. do these inspections cost? >But the fact is that they are the rules, Rules do an excellent job of keeping an honest person honest. Have zero effect on the dishonest person. bob ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ******************************************************