From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 10:55:38 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-90.3 required=2.4 tests=AWL,MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR, SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A98D49082 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:52:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SFkpIl016612 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:52:20 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:52:17 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0708C" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 205398 Lines: 4688 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2007 22:44:07 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John & Christy Horton Subject: Re: CCD in Ferals? swarm identification MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob wrote: > > > I have observed many queen breeding attempts to find a truly varroa > tolerant > bee. Only one attempt has impressed me. Dann Purvis (Purvis Brothers > Apiaries) in Georgia. > > Dann uses the "live and let die" method of breeder queen selection. Adds > varroa pressure to his possible breeder queens ( in other words adds > varroa > to the hive to increase the varroa pressure) and uses a six way > instrumental > insemination closed system to keep his varroa tolerant line pure. You can > read about the Purvis Brothers methods in the January 2004 (I think the > year > was 2004 but sure January) ABJ. Dann and sons on the cover and article by Bob, Whether it is "impressive" or not I will tell you where i am in my "varroa resistant " program! (First i will say-I do agree that the Dann Purvis is a very knowledgeable beekeper) -I have about 300 hives and feel I control most of the genetics in a small area here where i raise my bees. -I began selecting for varroa resistance some 6 years ago...this was built on a genetic foundation laid by BWEAVER and Rev Al Norton, and i assume, a feral population in the adjacent Wheeler Wildlife refuge Some facts about these bees: - all have not been treated for varroa at least 18 months. - about half of them at least for 3 years. - about 25% in at least 4 years -I had higher than usual winter losses-about 20% this winter....but our winter was as rough as i remember in a few years here with the latest frost on record here in Alalbama. My summer losses are very low- about 5 of 300 mature hives in the last 6 months or so. I just dont see high mite counts in my bees as a rule.....no noticeable difference in yards w/r/t date of last varroa treatments - I have requeened a highly infested hive with resistant stock and seen the infestation go down to very low levels -some have been in California adjacent to Koehnon (sp) Bros apiaries for about 3 months-we'll see what happens! So far they are looking great according to reports. -when put adjacent to a location of a 30 hive USDA program i was participating in involving VSH, Russians, and controls, both of the two hives of "my " stock performed in the top 30% of honey production the first year.this spring one tied for first place(the other got knocked over..it was doing well). No doubt these are not slam dunk statistically significant numbers, but they gave me a good feeling. -They seem to becoming gentler and gentler each year -as i value this quality greatly-many times I rob w/o a veil ...I essentially never wear a veil when fooling w/nucs(I do smoke and i do get stung a few times a day on a busy day when fooling with honey producing hives) - I am very aware of the location of BWEAVER Apiaries. I have NEVER had a queen from them of the hundreds I have bought that alarmed me. Now I have had some stingers in there, but so have I from several other queen breeders.I have also worked w/other beekeepers whose bees forced me to put on gloves..a rare occurence for me(30 minutes a year maybe w/my bees). - The queens sold this year have a very high acceptance rate.. -As i had mentioned earlier,this is certainly a work in progress, but I am very hopeful-even confident- in what I am seeing so far. - I have made mistakes, and am sure I will continue to some degree. Have a great day! .......and I hope you are impressed! If not maybe I can juggle one pounders while standing on one of my hives :) John ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2007 23:03:55 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John & Christy Horton Subject: Robbing, Swarming, CCD MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thank you for providing the link to the results in CCD deadouts tested , James(Jim?) I read it and it noted that "preliminary results" indicated that treating boxes chemically or through irradiation indicated a strong reduction in the effects of the disease. It was then noted that the information was very "preliminary", therefore not conclusive. Since this report was in a release in April, I am sure that the pattern(s) have solidified-one way or another- ie existence or nonexistence of statistically significantly differences in the treated vs untreated groups over the longer time period. i am not absolutely a comber of every single email through this list, but would anybody care to enlighten me on the current status of this study if I have overlooked it, or if there is any new info on THIS particular test noted. It is harder for me to imagine a better custom made experiment that could easily point to whether CCD is a problem with a pathogen as opposed to chemical contamination. (I am not a chemist-but I assume that irradiation would not have a pronounced effect on any man-made poisons) Thanks for your time John Horton Below is the link to which i am responding: http://home.ezezine.com/1636/1636-2007.04.26.08.42.archive.html ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2007 08:09:17 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Gavin Ramsay Subject: Re: fulfilling the famous Einstein prophecy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi All > This is irrelevant in a clonal animal as the *two* mites will carry the > same genes. It really comes down to the population genetics of the mite. It is possible that one clone spread into the area, and only one clone is still found there. Often happens with a new wave of invasion of a colonising organisam. It is also possible that the original population was mixed in the first place, or that variation came in during successive waves, not obvious to the beekeeper. all the best Gavin ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2007 11:25:15 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: moving hives alone? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>Most have used a wheelbarrow... But I've taken the bucket part off and made a flat wooden rack to mount in it's place. Does your wheelbarrow have a single wheel in the front? Not that you should not try out your idea, but why not use a hand truck? As mechanical engineer, I see shortcomings in the wheelbarrow in that it would elevate the center of gravity of the hive with respect to the ground and there is too much room of sideway tipping about the wheel. If you have a tall hive it won't take much to have it fall to one side. Balancing a wheelbarrow produces jerky muscle movements in your back. Unless your wheelbarrow has two wheels, I'd get a handtruck from Home Depot or look up a used one on Craig's List etc. Sometimes you can find a free one there. Waldemar ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2007 07:59:24 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Timothy C. Eisele" Subject: Re: fulfilling the famous Einstein prophecy In-Reply-To: <00b601c7dec1$3396be40$fbac6a58@office> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Edwards wrote: > Timothy wrote: >> I don't think this is necessarily true, because if you get *two* >> Varroa mites entering a single cell, then the male offspring of each >> one can mate with the female offspring of the other... > > This is irrelevant in a clonal animal as the *two* mites will carry > the same genes. > Isn't that assuming that all of the mites in the colony do, in fact, carry the same genes? This might be true if the colony had recently been infested by a single mite (or a group of sisters) and there had been no time for mutations to accumulate. But, as I understand it there is regular interchange of mites between colonies as bees drift from one to another, and so genetic lines from anywhere in the apiary can get into any one of the colonies. Also, as time passes there will be new mutations arising, so even if an entire apiary started out with mites that were all perfect clones of each other, after a couple of years there would be some non-trivial variations. Just to be clear, I am not saying that there is a lot of genetic variation, and I agree that, most of the time, mite reproduction is a lot like cloning because it is mostly brother/sister mating. All I am saying is that, when a genetic difference due to mutation does arise in one line, there are some opportunities for that mutation to be spread to other lines, and so mite reproduction is not pure cloning. Any discussion of mite adaptations should therefore take this into account. -- Tim Eisele tceisele@mtu.edu ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2007 05:04:50 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: need source for 12 oz. flat panel bear label SHEETS In-Reply-To: <000701c7deac$d9159540$a900000a@Bagdon.local> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bruce Raver wrote: I'm looking for 8.5" x 11" SHEETS of blank, white, self-adhesive laser (or ink jet) labels that are 1.5" x 2.25" for use on flat-panel 12-oz. bears. I am not interested in the pre-printed labels ........ I use a word processor to make my labels. Some wp's allow you to form two, three, or more columns per page. I use four columns and construct a label two columns wide and print on both the front and back side. I then fold the label down the middle so that it attaches as a folded label one column wide with printing on all four sides. I attach it to the bottle with twine. However, you could cut your labels with a paper cutter and attach it to your container with rubber cement. The cement works great and the excess just rubs off from the sides when you rub it with a finger. Mike in LA --------------------------------- Ready for the edge of your seat? Check out tonight's top picks on Yahoo! TV. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2007 05:14:00 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Video: Bees Trained to Search Out Specific Scents In-Reply-To: <20070814045855.84d281a5f2f7df0ef38485a84124037d.fdf0d8f8dd.wbe@email.secureserver.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit C Hooper wrote: Video: Bees Trained to Search Out Specific Scents Bees to Help Landmine Search http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/2007/08/video-bees-trained-to-search-out.html A new technique using honey bee to sniff out landmines is being developed in Croatia. View the video. Not new. An American company has been doing that for several years now. I heard it first mentioned here on one of the discussion lists two or three years ago, or longer. Mike in LA --------------------------------- Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2007 12:53:45 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "deknow@netzero.net" Subject: Re: fulfilling the famous Einstein prophecy Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit -- "Timothy C. Eisele" wrote: Isn't that assuming that all of the mites in the colony do, in fact, carry the same genes? >>this is a question i have as well. i've seen colonies (not my own) with last year's apistan strips still in the hive alonside new ones...and crawling with varroa. isn't this resistance genetic in nature? if all the mites in the colony (and/or apiary) were genetically identical, then how would this resistance to apistan arise? to me (unless i'm misunderstanding the mechanics of this kind of resistance), it seems that there must be some genetic variation for this to occur...even if in a very small percentage of the population in a given hive/apiary. deknow ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2007 13:07:19 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: CCD in Ferals? swarm identification Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>I have observed many queen breeding attempts to find a truly varroa > tolerant bee. Only one attempt has impressed me. Dann Purvis >Purvis Brothers Apiaries) in Georgia. Does anyone have experience with the Italian survivor stock from Arnold Honey's in Tennessee (www.arnoldhoneybeeservices.com/html/bees_for_sale.html)? They claim to breed from survivors and not have treated for the last 10 years? Also, has anyone tried Minesota Hygienic queens inseminated with VSH/SMR semen? Can these crosses be kept treatment-free? Sounds like a good combo for mite and AFB control. Thanks, Waldemar ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2007 08:10:44 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: CCD in Ferals? swarm identification MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello John, Glad to see you trying to improve the varroa tolerance of your stock! The difference between what you, the USDA-ARS and every other breeder trying to find varroa tolerance and Dann Purvis is Dann adds varroa levels to test his future breeders. Cranks varroa loads above threshold. A race care looks fine in warm up laps but will the car stay together at 200+ MPH? Dann and myself have put many *so called* varroa tolerant stocks sold in the U.S. to the test. bob ps. You can do the added varroa pressure test at home ( frames of drone brood *varroa infested*) when looking for the varroa tolerant breeder queen but do risk the loss of the hive but can many times pull the queen and introduce into a made up nuc to save her. Another way Dann culls the *dinks* is to leave a couple frames of drone brood in all season to see if the hive can still handle the varroa load. I was amazed at the lack of varroa in those frames with his "Gold Line" stock. Hygienic was a top priority of Dann's even years ago and Dann brought in some of the best outside genetics to use with *his own* survivor stock. -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2007 08:22:06 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Robbing, Swarming, CCD MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >It is harder for me to imagine a better custom made experiment that could easily point to whether CCD is a problem with a pathogen as opposed to chemical contamination. The biggest issue I have with CCD is the idea that CCD is caused by a single source. Most beekeepers have got their own idea of what the single problem is but the CCD team has narrowed the field to *four* serious problems effecting our industry. A new pathogen might be interesting but we have got plenty of known pathogens in our bees which kill bees. Chemical contamination is a fact . Both put in hives by beekeepers and from the environment. I have got opinions on the other two issues raised by the CCD team but need to get busy with bee work as I was at the Missouri State Fair booth yesterday. Thanks to all which stopped by the booth and even those which called me at home till after 10PM last night! Hope I helped with your questions! bob -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2007 09:36:53 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Russ Dean Subject: Re: moving hives alone? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I call it a dolly here but know what you mean. I tried that route and the dolly just wants to roll everything over in these hills. On the one metal wheel I have went up and down terrain balanced very well. The two wheeler takes forcing it to stay upright which I was more exhausted. And was harder on my back. How tall of a hive do you get? I use just a brood chamber and 1 or 2 supers. Yes I've tried that route. It might work on fairly level ground which I've not got. And I leave them on the screened bottom board which a dolly is hard on. Russ Dean _WV Beekeepers Home Page_ (http://www.wvbeekeepers.org/) ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2007 07:02:50 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Grant Gillard Subject: Re: need source for 12 oz. flat panel bear label SHEETS In-Reply-To: <000701c7deac$d9159540$a900000a@Bagdon.local> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I have the entire bear "family," Papa (16 oz.), Mama (12 oz.), Brother/Sister (8 oz.) and Baby Bear (6 oz.) from Betterbee. I use Avery #6576 1-1/4" x 1-3/4" for my laser printer. While the labels don't fit exactly, they come very close to fitting the flat panel bears from Betterbee. I print them on my computer using Microsoft Publisher. Publisher has a file template for these labels. Grant Jackson, MO --------------------------------- Choose the right car based on your needs. Check out Yahoo! Autos new Car Finder tool. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2007 15:26:25 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Robbing, Swarming, CCD MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Much had been written about the effects of treating comb from 'CCD' colonies before restocking. But can we really deduce anything fom this? Surely, if a colony dies out from any cause, then it is likely that the combs will have some level of contamination? Various pathogens can be found even on combs from 'healthy' colonies. So removing this must have a beneficial effect, should it not? In the UK, it has always been good practice to sterilise empty comb by fumigating with 80% acetic acid before restocking any hive that has died out. Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2007 07:42:55 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: fulfilling the famous Einstein prophecy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All, Re the mite being a clonal animal. Gavin accurately said: > It is also possible that the original population was mixed in the first > place, or that variation came in during successive waves, not obvious to > the beekeeper. We know from empirical experience that the mite has ability to fairly rapidly evolve resistance to chemicals, and for those resistance genes to rapidly spread throughout the population. Why would we think that the species couldn't quickly evolve in other ways? Randy Oliver ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2007 07:50:00 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: CCD in Ferals? swarm identification MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Also, has anyone tried Minesota Hygienic queens inseminated with VSH/SMR >semen? Hi Waldemar, I wrote about this cross in my article on breeding in ABJ. I doubt that any cross will work well every time, but this cross *can* result in a completely mite-resistant bee that is an incredible honey producer. These traits are heritable, but not 100%. Randy Oliver ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2007 15:56:20 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: fulfilling the famous Einstein prophecy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Deknow wrote: >if all the mites in the colony (and/or apiary) were genetically identical, >then how would this resistance to apistan arise? According to Martin: The resistance mechanism is believed to come from a change in the sodium channel (do not ask me to explain it!), which is a change which has no cost to the mite. He believes that this change occured in a single mite, probably in Sicily, and has spread from there i.e. all the resistant mites are clones of that one mite. He says that the movement of resistant mites is followig the same path as the original spread. Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2007 11:01:32 -0400 Reply-To: lloyd@rossrounds.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: moving hives alone MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline The best idea I've come across is to first put the hive onto a pallet used in honey houses. Just large enough to fit the bottom board and with a slot to allow it to be picked up by a hand truck. Really heavy hives, say 200 lbs., can be put on the pallet by slowly tilting it, sliding the pallet partly under, and then tilting and sliding the other side. Two people works best, mostly to keep the pallet from moving, but it can be done with one person. Once on the pallet, use a Kelley long nose hand truck to move it. This comes with large pneumatic tires that let it be used over rough ground. -- Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2007 11:05:23 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Russ Dean Subject: looking for.... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Many years ago I got one of those standard size honey bears that you might see in a store. But this one was in a gift shop and filled with bath bubble soap. AND it was a girl bear. She had eyelashes a cute little nose and a belly button. I wished a plastic company would pick up on this as a boy & girl bear set in a little wooden crate. I still have that bear. Russ Dean _WV Beekeepers Home Page_ (http://www.wvbeekeepers.org/) ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2007 08:31:35 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: Robbing, Swarming, CCD MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Various pathogens can be found > even on combs from 'healthy' colonies. So removing this must have a > beneficial effect, should it not? Peter, bees have a way of making "must haves" moot! : ) The effect of acetic fumigation was not as pronounced as I would have expected, given that many CCD colonies had high nosema levels. Randy Oliver ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2007 08:36:11 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: fulfilling the famous Einstein prophecy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >The resistance mechanism is believed to come from a > change in the sodium channel (do not ask me to explain it!), which is a > change which has no cost to the mite. Italian studies (cited in my article in ABJ) indicate that the mite pays a considerable cost. The reproduce only about half as rapidly. Randy Oliver ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2007 11:27:22 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Gallagher Subject: Re: need source for 12 oz. flat panel bear label SHEETS In-Reply-To: <000701c7deac$d9159540$a900000a@Bagdon.local> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit B. Raver asked: I'm looking for 8.5" x 11" SHEETS of blank, white, self-adhesive laser (or ink jet) labels that are 1.5" x 2.25" for use on flat-panel 12-oz. bears. I get oval labels from http://www.planetlabel.com but I don't see the size you need. They do have 1.5 x 2 and many other sizes and shapes. Be careful with their claim for inkjet labels, the ones I got weren't dry after 24 hours and I had to find someone with a color laser to make my honey labels. The box says they are made by LABELBLANK Corp. Brian Gallagher ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2007 13:17:32 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Rob Green Subject: need source for 12 oz. flat panel bear label SHEETS Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I used Avery 6570 labels, which are a teeny bit smaller, but fit very very well on flat panel 12 oz bears. Sizew is 1.25 x 1.75 and come 32 to a sheet. I since stopped using avery labels altogether as the spalling of the paper with wet hands on it, makes the labels unreadable in a short time. I use polyester laser labels now, in a color laser printer. (I never found inkjet printers to be appropriate for much at all, and the cost per page is higher with inkjet, and the ink either soaks in and spreads or is not nearly waterproof... and inkjets are so darned slow). Again, the polyester labels are 1.25 x 1.75 and look fabulous and wear very very well. At 12:00 AM 8/15/2007, you wrote: >I look fr 8.5" x 11" SHEETS of blnk, wht, slf-adhsv lsr (or >inkjet) lbls tht r 1.5" x 2.25" fr use on flt-pnl 12-oz. brs. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2007 13:20:21 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John & Christy Horton Subject: need source for 12 oz. flat panel bear label SHEETS MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Bruce Raver wrote: I'm looking for 8.5" x 11" > SHEETS of blank, white, self-adhesive laser (or > ink jet) labels that are 1.5" x 2.25" for use on flat-panel 12-oz. bears. > I > am not interested in the pre-printed labels ........ My wife makes our labels for our standard bears...she buys them from Office Depot and prints them at home John Horton ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2007 10:23:41 -1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Molokai Meli LLC Subject: Re: need source for 12 oz. flat panel bear label SHEETS In-Reply-To: <200708151717.l7FHHhOE006726@smtp3.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v618) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Aug 15, 2007, at 7:17 AM, Rob Green wrote: > I use polyester laser labels now, in a color laser printer. Rob, where do you get your polyester labels. I, too, use laser, but haven't heard of polyester paper. Thanks, Molokai Meli ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2007 17:58:32 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Raw Local Honey Recommended for Allergy Relief MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 09/08/2007 01:46:38 GMT Standard Time, Peter@AIRBORNE.CO.NZ writes: comb honey usually has significantly less pollen than [unfiltered] extracted honey - by a factor of about 10 times. This seems odd. Comb honey is simply unfiltered honey + the wax container. How is extra pollen added by the extraction process? Chris ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2007 23:21:09 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Robbing, Swarming, CCD MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Randy wrote: > Peter, bees have a way of making "must haves" moot! : ) Think I understand that! > The effect of acetic fumigation was not as pronounced as I would have > expected, given that many CCD colonies had high nosema levels. Are you talking about CCD colonies that had died out completely, or ones with some survivors? If the former then it is surprising and clearly suggests other factors are present (given that acetic acid fumigation is effective against such a wide range of pathogens on comb, that should eliminate many from your invetigations?). If the latter then I would not expect as great an effect if the survivors are put on to clean comb, as they will obviously be carrying some nosema unless treated with fumidil at the same time. Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2007 23:26:39 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: fulfilling the famous Einstein prophecy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Randy wrote on mite resistance: > Italian studies (cited in my article in ABJ) Yet to arrive here! > indicate that the mite pays a considerable cost. The reproduce only about > half as rapidly. That conflicts completely with Stephen Martin's lecture at Stoneleigh in April this year, but if it is true then should not resistant mites be far less virulent if they reproduce only half as rapidly? Judging from the colonies losses caused by resistant mites this certainly does not seem to be true. Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2007 19:45:57 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?UTF-8?Q?Peter_L._Borst?=" Subject: Varroa Clones Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Mon, 30 Jul 2007 16:05:41 +0100, Peter Edwards wrote: >> Peter Borst wrote: > >> >>>>It may also be due to inbreeding. Mites tend to inbreed anyway<<<< > >I do not know about mites in general, but for varroa is it not more 'tend' >to inbreed? In a recent lecture Dr Stephen Martin told that mites are >clonal, i.e. all varroa destructor are genetically identical. I meant varroa, of course. However, does this mean one clonal line or many? It makes a difference, I suppose. Do you have a link any work done on this? pb ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2007 20:32:10 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: HONEYDEW OR NOT? Comments: To: Yoon Sik Kim MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Yoon & All, Yoon said: >"Hence when you spin the frames in the centerfuge (extractor), the orange pollen mixes with and darknes the otherwise light honey, making it overall look orange-red." Yoon I extracted some combs today which had a honey exactly like you described Sumac. Orange/red. The frames were new so the color was easy to see. I think at least a portion of the honey is from an early sumac flow. bob -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2007 19:14:36 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: looking for.... Girl Honey Bear In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit uss Dean wrote:..... AND it was a girl bear. She had eyelashes a cute little nose and a belly button. Russ, Might have been painted on by the packer. Mike in LA --------------------------------- Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2007 19:22:46 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Color Laser Printer In-Reply-To: <200708151717.l7FHHhOE006726@smtp3.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Rob Green wrote:I use polyester laser labels now, in a color laser printer. What make and model of printer do you use? Mike in LA --------------------------------- Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles. Visit the Yahoo! Auto Green Center. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 08:34:04 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Varroa Clones MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter L. Borst wrote > However, does this mean one clonal line or many? One. > It makes a difference, I suppose. Do you have a link any work done on > this? No, sorry, I am just repeating what he told us. Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 08:06:05 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Gavin Ramsay Subject: Re: Varroa Clones MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi both Peters and All > However, does this mean one clonal line or many? The best paper I could find on this is by Solignac and colleagues in 2005. There are two types of V. destructor on A. mellifera which seem to trace back to two original strains jumping from A. cerana to A. mellifera. On top of that there has been some mixing between the two strains, and some new generation of mutants giving resistance to pyrethroids (interestingly called 'parathyroids' on one web page I saw this morning!). Calling them 'clones' doesn't seem quite right, even though I used the term before and the paper cited below uses the word in its title. 'Quasi-clones' brought about by repeated (but not total) inbreeding, perhaps. The paper below notes that the variant DNA in the cytoplasm always matches the variant DNA in the nucleus. The DNA in the nucleus was checked by looking at the fast-evolving microsatellites, and the small amount of variation noted was compatible with new variants occuring during the 50 years since the jump to A. mellifera. There has been some mixing between the Japanese and Korean strains where they meet, throwing up various combinations of the genes of the two. On the topic of the rapidity of the evolution of Varroa where enormous selection pressure is applied (ie miticides) it is not too surprising that new mutants with resistance have emerged. The sodium channel protein essential to nerve function has been mentioned already. In other arthropods, detoxifying enzymes such as monooxygenases also have an effect. Perhaps in Varroa, as in some insects, resistance arose in a step-wise, incomplete manner - possibly with individual components coming together in those rare matings which are not brother-sister, but distant cousin-distant cousin. But is there enough variation to allow the weak selection pressure found in a few isolated generations in a forest somewhere bring about non-virulence in Varroa? I doubt that very much, and would reckon that other factors are permitting the co-existence of forest bees and forest Varroa. all the best Gavin - Solignac, M.; Cornuet, J. M.; Vautrin, D.; Conte, Y. le; Anderson, D.; Evans, J.; Cros-Arteil, S.; Navajas, M. (2005) The invasive Korea and Japan types of Varroa destructor, ectoparasitic mites of the Western honeybee (Apis mellifera), are two partly isolated clones. Proceedings of the Royal Society of London. Series B, Biological Sciences 272 (1561) : 411-419 Abstract: Varroa destructor, now a major pest of the Western honey bee, Apis mellifera, switched from its original host, the Eastern honey bee, A. cerana, approximately 50 years ago. So far, only two out of several known mitochondrial haplotypes of V. destructor have been found to be capable of reproducing on A. mellifera (Korea and Japan). These haplotypes are associated in almost complete cytonuclear disequilibrium to diagnostic alleles at 11 microsatellite loci. By contrast, microsatellite polymorphism within each type is virtually absent, because of a severe bottleneck at the time of host change. Accordingly, 12 mitochondrial sequences of 5185 nucleotides displayed 0.40% of nucleotide divergence between haplotypes and no intra haplotype variation. Hence, each type has a quasi-clonal structure. The nascent intratype variability is subsequent to the clone formation 50 years ago: in both types, the variant alleles differ from the most common by one (in 10 cases), two (five cases) or three (one case) repeated motifs. In addition to individuals of the two 'pure' types, five F1 hybrids and 19 recombinant individuals (Japan alleles introgressed into the Korea genetic background) were detected. The existence of F1 and recombinant individuals in admixed populations requires that double infestations of honey bee cells occur in a high proportion but the persistence of pure types suggests a post-zygotic isolation between the two clones. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 03:21:56 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: fulfilling the famous Einstein prophecy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >fulfilling the famous Einstein prophecy I thought we had established earlier there is no proof Einstein ever made a prophecy about bees. bob -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 18:54:57 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: queenbee Subject: Re: fulfilling the famous Einstein prophecy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Isn't that assuming that all of the mites in the colony do, in fact, carry > the same genes? Just as a point of interest, Dr. Dennis Anderson told us at a recent beekeeping conference that it is his opinion that there was only one (1) Varroa destructor mite that made the jump from Apis cerana to Apis mellifera and all those varroa today are descendents of that one (1) varroa. Does that mean then that they are all carrying the same genes? Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 04:06:43 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: Malaysian University to Study Honey's Effect on Libido MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Malaysian University to Study Honey's Effect on Libido USM to Conduct Research on Nutritional Value of Honey Bernama Malaysian National News Agency, 8/16/2007 http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/2007/08/malaysian-university-to-study-honeys.html KOTA BAHARU, Aug 16 (Bernama) -- Universiti Sains Malaysia (USM) will conduct a three-year research on the nutritional value of honey including as an aphrodisiac. University Sains Malaysia Hospital (HUSM)'s Family Health Clinic Specialist and Lecturer Assoc Prof Dr Shaiful Bahari Ismail said the study would enlighten the public on the amount needed to be taken daily to stay healthy. "The study will also look at whether consuming honey has any desired effect in enhancing libido as believed by many people," he told reporters after opening the Sexual Health Conference opened by HUSM director Dr Zaidun Kamari here Thursday… ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 09:07:33 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Yoon_Sik_Kim?= Subject: Re: HONEYDEW OR NOT? Comments: To: Bob Harrison Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bob et al: Most of my customers, having been used to the light honey sold at stores, don’t seem to appreciate my Rising Sun, the orange dark honey from sumac, till they have actually tasted it, but then only a few are converted. To improve the color and at the same time to enhance the exqusite floral scent in the elixir, I had planted hundreds of Vitex (Chaste Tree) along the fence of my ten-acre plot six years ago: I plant nearly two hundred sapplings every year during late winter in their dormancy; this year I was able to plant only 183 sapplings I got from St. Gregory’s University nearby. The nectar from Vitex has lightened up my orange-red honey to such extent that it is super-light amber now, still retaining all the floral essence common in my area. I would say my honey is lighter than most store-brands. A word of caution on Vitex. I had originally planted them since there is little forage after sumac fizzles away between mid-July and late August (Goldenrod), knowing that Vitex blooms nearly all summer, starting late May; however, even Vitex blooms dry up late July although the literature brags how it blooms till frost, a technical fact but not much to work on after the initial explosive flowering. Most of the late blooms are servicing bumbles and other native pollinators right now with a handful of bees. Never broadcast Vitex seeds; they will not come up. They have to be raised, after freezing for a month, in a seeding bed. But they will bloom in the first year. Another benefit of Vitex, other than helping female hormonal imbalance (PMS), is that my horses and even goats would not touch them; only in the fall, the latter would munch on the drying and fallen leaves with gusto. Then again, goats will clear up just about anything. My horses graze between the rows as if I had asked them to weed the grass in between, thus helping the Vitex. Deciduous shrub, Vitex forms a maginificient hedge in summer, stopping any prying eye into my beeyards. Another keeper told me that one acre of Vitex will support two hundred colonies. That’s possible, I suppose, but not likely. But his statement supports the prolific nature of their blossom. Yoon ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 13:19:54 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Gavin Ramsay Subject: Re: fulfilling the famous Einstein prophecy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Trevor > Dr. Dennis Anderson told us at a recent beekeeping conference that it is > his opinion that there was only one (1) Varroa destructor mite that made > the jump from Apis cerana to Apis mellifera The 2005 paper is clear that there were two events (possibly two mites) from different stocks. One of the authors on that paper was 'D Anderson'. all the best Gavin ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 06:40:11 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: Robbing, Swarming, CCD MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter wrote: > Are you talking about CCD colonies that had died out completely, or ones > with some survivors? Died out completely. > If the former then it is surprising Yes, surprising! That's why I mentioned it. Randy ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 06:56:55 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: fulfilling the famous Einstein prophecy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >if it is true then should not resistant mites be far > less virulent if they reproduce only half as rapidly? My point exactly! Covered in my article. > Judging from the colonies losses caused by resistant mites this certainly does not seem to be > true. One observes that the mites don't seem to be building as rapidly, and may think that one is getting mites "under control." Then the next season, when the treatment fails completely, they devastate you! If the mites reproduced only half as fast, that would extend the population doubling time from about one month, to two months. Less virulent, yes. But still eventually lethal. : ( Randy ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 07:22:18 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Multiple eggs by queen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All, Saw something unusual yesterday. I have a yard of late nucs in which the queens have been laying for two weeks. They were weak nucs, with not enough bees to cover enough brood cells to keep up with the queen. It's not unusual for me to see two eggs in a cell with young queens, but two of these queens were happily (deperately) laying up to six eggs in a cell on the periphery of the broodnest. The eggs were arranged upright in the center of each cell--looking as though Robin Hood had shot six arrows into the bullseye! Didn't have my camera : ( Randy Oliver ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 10:17:01 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Multiple eggs by queen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit At times (although rare) young queens lay strange at first like you describe. I would give her a week before using the hive tool. My source is a beekeeper which worked for me and had also worked caging queens for a large queen producer. He said the problem might be more common than we think but the bees correct her first mistakes. Protein! Six eggs in a cell would make a good cover shot for a bee magazine! Bob -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 09:10:53 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Eugene Makovec Subject: Re: Multiple eggs by queen In-Reply-To: <099501c7e010$dafe35a0$56ab5142@MyPC> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I saw the same thing early this Spring, and it was explained to me thus: It has to do with, as you say, "not enough bees ... to keep up with the queen". She's laying eggs faster than they can prepare cells for her, so when she finishes laying in all the prepared cells, she starts over. It will take awhile for the number of workers to catch up with her laying capacity -- perhaps you can add some young bees from another hive? Eugene Makovec Kirkwood, MO --- randy oliver wrote: > They were > weak nucs, with not enough > bees to cover enough brood cells to keep up with the > queen. > ... laying up > to six eggs in a cell on > the periphery of the broodnest. > > Randy Oliver ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 13:38:14 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Rob Green Subject: Re: need source for 12 oz. flat panel bear label SHEETS In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 12:00 AM 8/16/2007, Molokai Meli wrote: >Rob, where do you get your polyester labels. I, too, use laser, but >haven't heard of polyester paper. I have 1.75"x1.25" from these people and 2x2.65 which I use for one pound jars and upsidedown jars. Neither of them follow a standard Avery template, and the labels are very close to the edge of the sheet. As my labels do not have a colored background (I learned that wastes way too much toner) and my laster printer goes to 1/8" of the page edge, I'm very happy with them. By the way, my honey label is here: http://www.bluffwoodcreek.com/beebeard/beardlabel.jpg I do labels in pairs, and the back label is mostly text and contact info. Where do I get these labels? onlinelabels.com ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 17:22:46 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?UTF-8?Q?Peter_L._Borst?=" Subject: Re: fulfilling the famous Einstein prophecy Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bob wrote: >I thought we had established earlier there is no proof Einstein ever made a >prophecy about bees. It was supposed to be a joke, Bob Pete ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 19:01:44 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Multiple eggs by queen In-Reply-To: <002901c7e018$8063a780$06bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bob writing to Randy: I would give her a week before using the hive tool. Reply: I certainly would not do this with a hive tool, for this sounds like a darn good laying queen to me, that the bees simply have to get numbers up for, to be able to keep up with her great laying capacity for good buildups. Don't want them, then send them to me! Regards, Dee A. Lusby ____________________________________________________________________________________ Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. http://travel.yahoo.com/ ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 19:04:52 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Multiple eggs by queen In-Reply-To: <372599.94645.qm@web83113.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Eugene writing to Randy: perhaps you can add some young bees from another hive? Reply: Yes, most excellent idea to add some young bees from another hive, but at the nurse bee stage or just prior to that have never seen the outside world. Just don't tape or brush the queen in while adding though, so look closely. But know Randy is good beeman and doing well, with good queens it seems. Regards, Dee A. Lusby ____________________________________________________________________________________ Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles. Visit the Yahoo! Auto Green Center. http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/ ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2007 01:08:40 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Rob Green Subject: Re: Color Laser Printer In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 12:00 AM 8/17/2007, Mike Stoops wrote: >Rob Green wrote:I use polyester laser >labels now, in a color laser printer. >What make and model of printer do you use? I bought Konica Minoltas for two clients and they liked them so much, I now have two at home. Magicolor 2400w I think. Color lasers are a much lower cost per page than inkjets, and these printers have been as low as $200. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2007 12:23:45 -0400 Reply-To: lloyd@rossrounds.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Pollen and comb honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Chris said "This seems odd. Comb honey is simply unfiltered honey + the wax container. How is extra pollen added by the extraction process?" Extra pollen is not added by the extraction process, but there is another reason why extracted honey 'often' contains more pollen than does comb honey. Bees store pollen immediately adjacent to brood. As comb honey is normally produced quite seperate from brood, pollen is normally not stored in the cells where comb honey is stored. But watch the word 'normally'. I have certainly seen situations where comb honey supers contain ample amounts of pollen. Storing pollen in combs not immediately adjacent to brood seems to be genetic. When one has a hive that does it...they do a lot of it. 25 years ago our local standard for comb honey included 'no pollen in cells of comb honey'. We would discard combs containing pollen. Today, standards have changed and combs containing some pollen are eagerly sought! And speaking of 'normally', I absolutely never use queen excluders in the production of Ross Rounds and often go an entire season (thousands of rounds) without a single larvae in the combs. But today a customer told me he put three supers on a hive and the queen filled the top two with larvae, and did not lay in the super nearest to the brood nest! In more than 25 years I have never seen more than a few drone cells along the bottom of sections, and this first-year producer gets two supers full. Go figure. -- Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2007 10:33:56 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Heat and Brood Rearing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit We are experiencing very hot days (100º+) and pretty warm nights down here in southern Alabama. My hives are placed out in an open field with no shade whatsoever. They are on hive stands consisting of two concrete blocks high plus the height of a landscape timber and have screened bottom boards.What has been the groups' experience with brood rearing by hives going into early fall with these conditions? Would it be best to minimize disruption of the bees due to the heat? There is plenty of water available within about fifty feet (a pond). Mike in LA --------------------------------- Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2007 19:03:49 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: Heat and Brood Rearing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Mike wrote: >We are experiencing very hot days (100º+) ...What has been the groups' experience with brood rearing by hives going into early fall with these conditions? Hi Mike, I don't know if I can even comment because of differences in humidity. My bees experience such conditions, but it is bone dry. I presume that the low humidity would allow them to dump heat through evaporation more readily. I find that strong colonies near water do OK. Randy Oliver ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2007 20:00:07 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Aussie viruses MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All, A friend sent me the following paper on bee viruses by Bailey http://vir.sgmjournals.org/cgi/reprint/43/3/641. It's from 1979, but he speaks of strains of Kashmir Bee Virus in Australia different from those elsewhere. The virus killed bees within 3 days after injection. Several parts of the article are of interest, especially the discussion. He raises the question as to whether native species of Aussie bees are transmitting viruses to honeybees, and wonders why there appeared to be different isolates of KBV from a "comparatively small region." It appears that we'll all be able to read Lipkin's paper in Sept--don't bother trying to get info from him directly. I don't expect the paper to solve CCD--if it did, USDA would have released the info. But it will be very interesting to see Jerry B and the Army fire up their IVDS machine to look for whatever Lipkin found by metagenomic analysis. Food for thought, but we're just gonna have to wait! Randy Oliver ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2007 22:22:41 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Heat and Brood Rearing In-Reply-To: <001d01c7e13c$057c7b80$89ab5142@MyPC> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Mike: We are experiencing very hot days (100º+) ...What has been the groups' experience with brood rearing by hives going into early fall with these conditions? Reply: Well, we are experiencing very hot days too of 100F+, with high humidity on top of that and flooding throughout our area with best monsoon rains since about 1983 thereabouts. Stupid me out there working up hives for fall flow, and most are two full boxes of brood and queens are laying for all they are worth right now. Honey and pollen coming in but majority being used for brooding up to roll, and our traditional main flow for fall doesn't start until about 1 Oct. So this could be a good ending for a crapy spring beginning to end with a decent year if can stay on top of things. But with 2 full deeps of brood with 6-8 frames in each of same, it is easy to make a full divide if one has to take up 1-2 here and there and move on. So if hot and humidity to match, see no problem as vegetation really comes on. The problem is when hot and no plants coming on and blooming is hurting. Dee A. Lusby ____________________________________________________________________________________ Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell. http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/ ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2007 07:35:49 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Aussie viruses In-Reply-To: <008201c7e143$e2d58150$89ab5142@MyPC> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit randy oliver wrote: > Hi All, > > Several parts of the article are of interest, especially the > discussion. He raises the question as to whether native species of > Aussie bees are transmitting viruses to honeybees, and wonders why > there appeared to be different isolates of KBV from a "comparatively > small region." > > Some interesting points were made to me a while back. One was that the different viruses which are now causing problems were known long ago but were more of a "laboratory" curiosity than something that was causing problems. After mites arrived, that changed. There are still areas that have Varroa but are not suffering the same high losses as in the US. Randy's observation is probably the reason but not necessarily confined to Aussie KBV. That was another point made to me- it is not Varroa but the virus, which does complicate the whole Varroa problem. Add to that, variants in KBV as well as different viruses and you complicate it further. I still contend that CCD is a minor issue since it is Varroa/Tracheal that is the problem. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2007 11:52:57 -0400 Reply-To: lloyd@rossrounds.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Pollen in honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Peter said "Most in the UK would not use brood comb for extrcated honey production." Actually, the same is true in the US. Only in very unusual instances would brood comb be used to produce extracted honey. But the real question is...do 'most' beekeepers use queen excluders when they are producing honey for extraction? In my 'educated' opinion, most commercial beekeepers in the US use excluders when producing honey for extraction, but some commercial beekeepers do not. Likewise, 'most' hobbyists in the US do not use extractors when producing honey for extraction but instead count on the flow being strong enough to force the queen down so that their extraction supers do not contain brood. In these regards I think we may be different from the UK where conditions are such that it may be almost impossible to avoid brood in supers unless extractors are used. Lloyd -- Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2007 11:57:32 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Josh Markle Subject: Extracting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, This afternoon is my first go at extraction. I've got three hives with 11 deeps ready to go. My garage has been converted into a crude honey house, but some things I wanted to have ready are not in operation. My sump pump is out of commission and I couldn't get a utility sink with running hot water hooked up in time. What I am concerned about now is having the frames warm enough to get the honey out easily. I have a pretty decent extractor - radial, holds 36 frames, power - so I initially wasn't too concerned about warming them, but I've heard I should be. It is sort of chilly here in S. Alberta, but sunny, so I was thinking of tarping them for a few hours in the sun. Any ideas? I am also looking for a good way to deal with uncapping and the cappings left over. I am considering rigging a mesh basket into the extractor just for cappings. Is it worth it at this point? Hope to hear from some of you in time. I should have written earlier. Thanks, Josh Also: I am looking to hear about any experiences dealing with food grade epoxies and galvanized steel. My extractor is galvanized and I am looking at coating it over the winter. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2007 15:15:43 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?UTF-8?Q?Peter_L._Borst?=" Subject: Re: Pollen in honey Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lloyd Spear wrote: > "Most in the UK would not use brood comb for extrcated honey production." > >Actually, the same is true in the US. Only in very unusual instances would brood comb be used to produce extracted honey. But the real question is ... do 'most' beekeepers use queen excluders when they are producing honey for extraction? In my 'educated' opinion, most commercial beekeepers in the US use excluders when producing honey for extraction, but some commercial beekeepers do not. Pete: I worked for many beekeepers in California during the 70s and 80s and I rarely ever saw a commercial hive with queen excluders. Most used all deeps and the queen was permitted to go anywhere. In fact, I observed that the bees store honey in old brood combs first, before putting it in light colored combs. Since coming to NY State, I have seen many beekeepers using excluders and various sizes of honey supers (medium, shallow, comb honey, 7", etc.). All the same, I know several in this county that use deeps only and make no distinction between a brood frame and a honey frame. I don't know what the actual percentage is and how this may vary from region to region. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2007 17:13:38 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?UTF-8?Q?Peter_L._Borst?=" Subject: Queen excluders revisited Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Greetings I wanted to say I had such an enjoyable time with the Catskill Mountain Beekeepers Club on Aug 14th. I am afraid not too of many them read this, but thanks anyway. The subject of queen excluders came up and I expressed the opinion that "one half of the room uses them and the other half doesn't, and they'll never agree on it". Then, a nice lady asked me point blank "what would you do?" I am afraid I dodged that bullet. I suppose the answer is neither, because I don't own bees at present (NY State Apiary Inspectors are not allowed to own bees). The real answer is: it depends. It depends on what you like. It also depends on how you take want to take your honey off. I used to use "Bee Go" and with fume boards, queen excluders are not necessary and probably get in the way. I know one beekeeper that uses bee escape boards extensively and they won't really work if there's brood in the honey. And you can easily trap a queen up. If you use a blower, you stand the chance of blowing the queen, if she's in the honey supers. Without queen excluders and especially if you use all the same size frame, you can easily put the brood frames down when you take off the honey, either with fumes or by (ugh) brushing and shaking. If you get a little brood back to the honey house, you can just put it into hives you have there for this purpose. I like the idea of a one story brood nest enforced by a queen excluder. It makes a very efficient and well organized hive. However, those years of running bees without excluders probably accounts for the lingering notion that you may get a better hive and more honey by not restricting the colony in any way. A third way is the use a deep or two and then all shallows, with no excluder. The larger brood combs seem to hold the queen in the brood nest; the smaller frames seem less inviting to her and she is not apt to wander up very often. Pete ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2007 19:54:48 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: 'Breeding Mite Resistance in Italian Bees' Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello All, So much talk about developing varroa resistant bees from exotic breeds. Are there ANY “organized groups working together” to develop resistance in the strain of bee that has proven itself in the North East? ,,, “the good old Italian bee“. If there is such a 'group or breeders' OR 'breeder', could they please contact me by email off list, or provide contact information. Thanks! naturebee@yahoo.com Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' FeralBeeProject.com ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2007 20:34:00 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: mites and CCD MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill said: "I still contend that CCD is a minor issue since it is Varroa/Tracheal that is the problem." Our surveys and sampling of colonies, as well as reports by other CCD investigators don't support this notion. Yes, some beekeepers had mite problems and CCD. Others had demonstrably low mite levels, verging on none - and they still had CCD. Just because some of the initial reports of CCD were from beekeepers, most of whom admitted to having mite problems, does not mean that all cases of CCD are mite related. I think its running about 50/50 at the moment. I wouldn't be spending time investigating CCD - if it were simply a mite management problem. Jerry ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2007 23:44:05 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: 'Breeding Mite Resistance in Italian Bees' MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, >So much talk about developing varroa resistant bees from exotic breeds. I don't think exotic breeds fits the search for varroa tolerant bees. Beekeeping history: After varroa knocked the commercial beekeeping industry to its knees wiping out over half the commercial hives and according to most researchers 95% of feral colonies Dr. Harbo at the Baton Rouge Bee lab asked for beekeepers to send survivor queens. Some of these queens were all that survived from say a 2000 hive commercial operation. Queens from all over the U.S. were shipped to the bee lab. Efforts by Harbo to produce a varroa tolerant queen by selection from the queens was a failure ( I think from memory a four year effort)and was documented for years at the web site but not sure if the old information is still available. Harbo was puzzled by the lack of success (personal communication). Then Harbo & Harris began to look closely at why some hives were able to survive varroa and SMR was named. Then the SMR genetics were isolated ( later found to be a hygienic behavior but still Harbo & Harris had found a key to locating a varroa tolerant bee). The first SMR queens were *in my opinion* too inbred which made first cross problematic. Poor brood patterns and bees which were varroa tolerant but not prolific. A problem which has been resolved I have been told and the new VSH and Minnesota Hygienic lines are varroa tolerant AND prolific. The above lines are not exotic and came from our U.S. bees and will help any U.S. lines be varroa tolerant when used. However (as predicted by many beekeepers) you still need to keep adding the varroa tolerant genetics to keep a true varroa tolerant line. I have heard others say this is not so but those friends of mine using varroa tolerant queens say you need to buy the newest releases from the above people (usually instrumental inseminated breeder queens or Russian/Russian from the USDA-ARS queen breeders) to keep your outfit truly varroa tolerant. Once you move away from pure Russian or the varroa tolerant line open mates for a couple years then varroa tolerance slips away. Maybe exotic: In my opinion most did not give the Yugo bee a chance. Several of my friends had success similar to the Russian bee but the Yugo bee was said to be a failure but I have a friend which has descendents from the first Yugo import untreated ( by raising queens from the same original bunch of Yugo queens after 13 years). Somewhat inbred but varroa tolerant and untreated. We had excellent strips during the Yugo import and many bought Yugo genetics only to use strips so in my opinion they were not treated like the Russian import was. The Russian import was not really embraced by beekeepers until the chemical strips started failing and many did not see formic and thymol as a serious solution to varroa. In my opinion if another strip made been available then many beekeepers might have not have taken a serious look at the Russian bee but we had three options. 1. increase the use of not approved chemicals or increased use of strips or use of two approved strips at the same time. I doubt any member of BEE-L doubts these things were done after Apistan & Checkmite started to fail as a varroa control. 2. Move away from hard chemicals, replace contaminated comb and use varroa tolerant queens or Russian queens. 3. monitor varroa closer and use soft controls such as api life var, formic acid and apiguard. The beekeepers using 1. bought time in the varroa fight but at what cost as many are fighting contaminated comb , super mites and are running bees which have got zero varroa tolerance. Possibly some CCD is coming from beekeepers which chose the no.1 path. Beekeepers using the no. 2 path (myself) have not seen serious problems since making the change ( took me four years to replace all apistan & checkmite brood comb) but the road has not been easy but although laughed at by many in the No. 1 qroup we are in a better position than group one in my opinion. Many beekeepers in group three simply have switched to monitoring varroa and using the light treatments but still are not using the varroa tolerant genetics and are running bees on chemical strip contaminated comb. Some CCD problems might be traced back to this group. Reports to myself from this group is that although their bees are surviving varroa but the bees are not thriving nor building like they did before varroa. Even seeing PMS while varroa loads are low. The above is a *simple version* ( complicated would take days) of my industry observations. Another commercial beekeeper called Friday night to say he was selling out. He fits in one of the above categories but not willing to make the effort to solve his problems. I post the above not to condemn but possibly help those still in beekeeping choose a future path. Hope the above helps! bob -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 01:56:23 +0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?B?QXJpIFNlcHDDpGzDpA==?= Subject: Re: Queen excluders revisited MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Peter: > However, those years ofrunning bees without excluders probably accounts > for the lingering notion that you may get a better hive and more honey by > not restricting the colony in any way. The above is the opinion of many, but what are research results ? These must change because of lacation and different years so it would bee nice to see different opinions based on good self made trials or scientific sesearch. So feel free to put your fact ( based on bookkeeping not feeling) on the table. How much less honey (%) do you get with an excluder ? Ari Seppälä Finland ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 04:56:00 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: moving hives alone? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Try a sledge/toboggan. Chris ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 05:20:06 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: fulfilling the famous Einstein prophecy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 15/08/2007 16:04:25 GMT Standard Time, beekeepers@STRATFORD-UPON-AVON.FREESERVE.CO.UK writes: He says that the movement of resistant mites is followig the same path as the original spread. ie by trading and migration routes; therefore spread by beekeepers. Chris ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 07:02:47 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?Peter_L._Borst?=" Subject: Re: 'Breeding Mite Resistance in Italian Bees' Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit J. Waggle wrote: >So much talk about developing varroa resistant bees from exotic breeds. >Are there ANY “organized groups working together” to develop resistance >in the strain of bee that has proven itself in the North East? >,,, “the good old Italian bee“. Maybe you could explain how the Pennsylvanian Italian bee is somehow less exotic than, say, the Californian Carniolans, or the Russian Macedonians, or even the Arizonian Africans? The days of isolating and breeding "pure" strains of any sort of bee are over. Not only is it virtually impossible except on certain islands, but following the current bee research, isolation and inbreeding may actually be a scourge. What is needed now is to leave behind the purebreed mindset and look for an amalgamated honey bee with health and vigor as the chief criteria. It matters little what it is called. pb ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 07:27:18 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: mites and CCD In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jerry Bromenshenk wrote: > > Just because some of the initial reports of CCD were from beekeepers, most > of whom admitted to having mite problems, does not mean that all cases of CCD > are mite related. It am saying that the real problem for beekeepers is Varroa/Tracheal. CCD may be around, but it is not the major problem. The problem I have with CCD is that it did not appear in Maine with the colonies brought up for blueberry pollination. CCD like symptoms were noted but all were explained because there is an experienced observer here in Maine who has seen it all. Not to disparage University researchers or bee experts, but they are not really experienced in the world of Bees like the Bee Inspector of the caliber we have in Maine. CCD like symptoms are not new since there is Disappearing Disease and Spring and Fall Dwindle. Lots of hypothesis as to what they are. Beekeepers tend to see what they think they see and not what is actually there. Nothing new here. We are all subject to our own prejudices (I included). Beekeepers will not necessarily tell you everything, since some of their techniques may bee off-label. Plus all of us have a certain sense of ego protection and would like to be thought of as competent to know what is wrong with our bees. After visiting commercial operators in the Blueberry barrens, that is questionable. As long as you have to rely on the beekeeper to give you a "before" snapshot, and often an "after" also, you have a major science problem in identifying just what causes CCD. The same problem exists if the observer is from a University but does not have many years of field experience to know what they are actually looking at. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 13:07:50 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: 'Breeding Mite Resistance in Italian Bees' In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Peter >> “the good old Italian bee“. My reply may seem harsh, but it is not disrespectful... The only 'good' Italian bee is dead one, or one that is in situ in it's natural habitat of Italy. > The days of isolating and breeding "pure" strains of any sort of bee are > over. Not only is it virtually impossible except on certain islands, but > following the current bee research, isolation and inbreeding may actually > be a scourge. Please do not equate pure breeding, with isolation and inbreeding... Pure breeding requires a large amount of diversity within an overall 'specification' of closed population and gives rise to stability. If you do isolate small populations you will run the risk of inbreeding, and you are particularly at risk of inbreeding if your bee of choice is the Italian, owing to it's low mating frequency. If breeding Italians is considered desirable then the breeding program needs to be about four times as big as with other races, just to cope with this low frequency. > What is needed now is to leave behind the purebreed mindset and look for > an amalgamated honey bee with health and vigor as the chief criteria. If the amalgam that you propose is so desirable why has nature failed to capitalise on such a system ? Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 08:12:21 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Russ Dean Subject: Re: moving hives alone? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Try a sledge/toboggan. I was thinking more of using the old barrow from the wheelbarrow. I take it you meant a sled. Russ Dean _WV Beekeepers Home Page_ (http://www.wvbeekeepers.org/) ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 09:59:31 -0400 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Aussie viruses MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I don't expect the paper to solve CCD--if it did, USDA would have > released the info. No one at the USDA has the ability to "release the info", as it is not solely USDA work. The involvement of multiple entities and multiple researchers requires all to agree on "what to say", and too much has been "said" already, from the point of view of someone who wants a paper published in one of the many journals that demand "exclusive first publication rights". Merely finding a suspected proximate cause does not in itself "solve" anything. Note that we don't have any "cure" for any of the well-known viruses that have been around for years. I also think that it is highly premature to claim that the virus or viruses claimed to be linked to CCD "came from Australia". It is possible that the problem came in on AHB that hitch-hiked to the USA via uninspected cargo containers and/or uninspected cargo ships. It seems much more reasonable to think that CCD symptoms were shrugged off as "absconding" in "managed" AHB colonies than to claim that CCD went undetected in Austrialia, or imply that anyone deliberately ignored the problem. But regardless, the days of bees arriving at US ports without sampling, inspections, and tracking to the end-user are over. Stow-away hives have to die. Imported bees have to be inspected at port-of-entry, not withstanding the condescending reassurances of the WTO approach to what they want to call "biosecurity". > ...the different viruses which are now causing problems were > known long ago but were more of a "laboratory" curiosity than > something that was causing problems. After mites arrived, > that changed. I don't know how "long ago" you mean here, but I'd be interested in hearing who found what when using which technologies, as viruses were not very easy to tell apart until recently. > But it will be very interesting to see Jerry B and the Army > fire up their IVDS machine to look for whatever Lipkin found > by metagenomic analysis. No, it would be the REVERSE in a perfect world populated by honorable people, as Jerry B and the Army freely offered their findings to all and sundry in the USDA-ARS Beltsville meetings months ago. The fact that Lipkin and his cohorts have made no effort to cooperate with other "team members", not even to the extent of privately comparing simple parameters like particle sizes, indicates that the increasingly-inaccurate term "team" has now proven itself to be a mere expression of wishful thinking. If the fabled paper does not give credit where credit is due on this point, you will witness a unique form of Kabuki theater rarely seen in beekeeping circles. It will be an actual scandal, where Lipkin and his co-authors stick their fingers in their ears and say "La la la, I can't hear you" while the Army offers tersely-worded statements about their findings of months ago, and how amazingly similar they appear to the highly-publicized, yet still hard-to-pin-down findings rumored to be in "the paper". Other science writers have asked me to explain the lack of pre-prints under the usual "embargo" or "non-disclosure agreement", as the pre-release of a paper under such restrictions is the normal and customary approach for even science of the most significant sort. The game is simple - science writers need lead-time to prepare articles, so the system operates on the basis of trust and reputation. If you want to play in this space, you play by the rules. The actions in regard to this specific paper are somewhat "childish" in the view of many, as this is not the Manhattan Project. All I can offer is that the quotes and statements that have been offered are either: a) Examples of slip-ups, where too much was said to writers with no experience in science writing by researchers with only limited experience in dealing with "the press", explaining the lack of the usual controls like non-disclosure agreements. (This theory would explain the fragments appearing in obscure publications written by obscure authors.) b) Deliberate attempts to get some pre-publication hype and thereby generate interest in a paper that is likely to be more speculative than authoritative. The press hype over CCD has been massive, so the attention given to this paper's authors could be career and reputation-enhancing if enough "anticipation" can be created. (This would explain the New Yorker article, where the publication was not obscure, and the author was a regular staff writer.) I'm not going to make accusations of "manipulation" when it is still possible to ascribe the "leaks" to simple miscommunication and inexperience, but other science writers have much more cynical views of the situation. My crystal ball is on the fritz, but my money is on the guys who found something, and openly informed everyone involved in the "CCD meetings" of their findings. While "first to publish" certainly does establish "priority", the refusal to compare notes indicates a reckless disregard for the need to give credit where credit is due. I expect that every story written about "the paper" will note the "surprising absence of any mention of prior work". Regardless of the tempest in a trebuchet around the credit due, the one thing we can expect and demand as a result of this paper is a reconsideration of port-of-entry inspections on WTO-mandated imports and port-of-entry inspections of cargo to detect stowaway bees. I was one of a tiny number of people who called for inspections back when the WTO-mandated imports of live bees were approved back in the 2002-2005 timeframe, http://bee-quick.com/reprints/apis_bc.pdf http://bee-quick.com/reprints/regs.pdf so perhaps a few more people will start to get with the program, and demand that USDA-APHIS be instructed and funded to treat bees as what they are - live animals that can carry viruses and pests like small hive beetles. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 07:18:18 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: 'Breeding Mite Resistance in Italian Bees' MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Great post, Bob, but I have one point re > A problem which has been resolved I have been told and the new VSH > and Minnesota Hygienic lines are varroa tolerant AND prolific. I've been speaking with Dr Spivak this season. She got resistance from her cooperators when she bred SMR into MH. So she is running trials with additional stock now. So I'd hesistate to say that MH is completely mite tolerant at this time, although that is an eventual goal. MH is more mite tolerant than unselected stock, but not tolerant enough to avoid some sort of help. Randy Oliver ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 10:39:44 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: 'Breeding Mite Resistance in Italian Bees' Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Peter L. Borst wrote: >Maybe you could explain how the Pennsylvanian Italian bee is somehow less >exotic than, say, the Californian Carniolans, or the Russian Macedonians, >or even the Arizonian Africans? Peter, I made no mention of a “Pennsylvanian Italian bee” in my letter. By saying exotic, I mean to distinguish outside stock from domestic stock. exotic, Webster’s definition: “strikingly, excitingly, or mysteriously different or unusual” >What is needed now is to leave behind the purebreed mindset and look for >an amalgamated honey bee with health and vigor as the chief criteria. It >matters little what it is called. As in the naturally adapted ferals criteria then? ;) I agree, call it what ever you want, and what ever strain! As long as >>>>‘desired traits are there’<<<< IMO, The Italian and other domestic stock has long been selected for 'desired traits' and perhaps not being looked at closely enough. That is the intent of my letter. Best Wishes, Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' FeralBeeProject.com ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 07:46:21 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: mites and CCD MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Bill wrote: The same problem exists if the > observer is from a University but does not have many years of field > experience to know what they are actually looking at. Bill, I was skeptical as hell of CCD at first. But I have spoken to enough beekeepers with field experience to feel that something other than just mite problems is going on. Jerry Bromenshenk likely has more field experience than any beekeeper in Maine at actually inspecting CCD colonies. I've had the chance over the past couple of years of personally asking Dr Bromenshenk quite a number of very specific questions about bee behavior and biology. His answers exhibited a superb depth of knowledge of the bee colony, and were of much greater detail (supported by hard data won from tedious measurement) than most respondents could give me. If Dr Jerry Bromenshenk tells me that he is observing something out of the ordinary, I take notice! The other members of the CCD working group have better things to do with their time than go on wild goose chases. They have also all had experience with mite deadouts before. To suggest that they have all suddenly turned into fools seems a bit frivolous. Your contention that CCD is nothing but a mite issue has been noted by the List. Researchers are testing that hypothesis as we speak. I eagerly await their results. Randy Oliver ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 11:11:18 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: 'Breeding Mite Resistance in Italian Bees' Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dave Cushman wrote: >The only 'good' Italian bee is dead one, or one that is in situ in it's >natural habitat of Italy. Hello Dave, IF I may retract that statement to read: “the good old, long selected and proven strains“. So much talk about developing varroa resistant bees from exotic breeds. Are there ANY “organized groups working together” to develop resistance in the strain of bee that has proven itself in the North East? Like the,,, >>>“the good old fashioned, long selected and proven strains“.<<< Please contact me: naturebee@yahoo.com I continually get asked by neighboring beekeepers to help tame a hot hive or solve other problems. One thing in common, is the queen markings have the appearance of that from exotic strains. IMO, it seems as result of the narrow focus efforts for selecting varroa resistance from outside the long proven strains long selected for traits of management. Working with long proven and selected strains perhaps would have mitigated the problems we seem to be seeing to a large degree. Best Wishes Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' FeralBeeProject.com ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 11:51:03 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Steve_Noble?= Subject: Re: 'Breeding Mite Resistance in Italian Bees' Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dave Cushman said: “If the amalgam that you propose is so desirable why has nature failed to capitalise on such a system ?” We are talking about the DOMESTICATED honey bee here are we not? I strongly suspect that absent human interference the honey bee would have found ways to survive anything NATURE dealt it. Populations may have come and gone but the species would have continued on. The point is that nature is not the entire cause of stress in the honey bee. Of course humans are part of nature, but by convention we separate those factors that we produce from what is considered “natural”. Anyway the problems we are trying to solve are largely those that our own involvement has created. I am not sure that nature has much chance to capitalize on something that we are so closely involved in. (I almost said: … that we are constantly messing with.) We consistently confuse the distinction between what is a problem for the honeybee and what is a problem for us beekeepers. So what capitalizing looks like to nature is not always what capitalizes us. The way nature deals with things is not always pretty to us humans. We might not like the results and we are tempted to short circuit the process. Having said that, I personally find interfering is a big part of what makes beekeeping interesting. I want control! I think it is worth asking, absent human involvement, how much genetic variation would exist within populations of honey bees in nature and the answer is undoubtedly just enough but probably not all that much. It would be at the places of overlap of otherwise isolated populations where you would find the greatest mixing of diverse genetic information. But could you generalize and say that it is at these places of diversity where bees would have the greatest chance of survival in the face of natural challenges? It seems like it would depend on the specific challenge and whether it generally or specifically related to the genetic makeup of the various populations within the species. For example it’s clear that Varroa are harder on some varieties of honey bee than others, but here again there are man made factors at play that obscure this picture. Cell size anyone? Unnaturally close distribution of colonies? Etc? Steve Noble Whidbey Island, Washington ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 17:03:19 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: 'Breeding Mite Resistance in Italian Bees' In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Joe > IF I may retract that statement to read: > > “the good old, long selected and proven strains“. I am afraid your new statement does not hold up, where in US can you find localised or naturalised bees of any race or strain with a proven history ? There is constant chopping and changing to whatever is 'flavour of the month' with strains imported over vast distances. This has been so for the last fifty years if not the last century, with the result that you have a situation that never gets the chance to stabilize. Even US queen rearing programs expect results in four years, when everybody else takes seven, how many generations can you get in a single season ? It is just about possible to raise ten generations in a single season, but then the assessments have to take place in parallel and the numbers of colonies being assessed gets to astronomic proportions. I do not think the answer is exotic breeds or any particular bee, it just requires some dedicated and tedious work making slow, but steady progress (a bit like the tortoise and the hare) it is progress that is needed, not magic bullets or miracle cures. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 08:23:19 -1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Howard McGinnis Subject: Varroa control using pheremones? In-Reply-To: <46C6D995.4080308@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If the female mite is drawn to the drone larvae, couldn't the pheremones of the drone larvae be used to draw the mites into a trap of some sort? Howard ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 15:16:08 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: 'Breeding Mite Resistance in Italian Bees' Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dave Cushman wrote: >>There is constant chopping and changing to whatever is 'flavour of the >month' with strains imported over vast distances. This has been so for >the last fifty years if not the last century, Hello Dave, ONLY since the quest for a varroa resistant mite (IMO, after 1995) have I seen such a Hodgepodge of ‘bee flavors‘. Prior to this, the ‘so called Italian’ strains dominated my area since the later 1800‘s so I understand. Any swarm caught would have accompanying traits that were very predictable and highly manageable. NOW, it’s a risky adventure to collect swarms without heavy assessing and heavy culling. >I do not think the answer is exotic breeds or any particular bee, I agree. However, I believe it can potentially be beneficial if ‘properly implemented’. IMO< The quest for varroa tolerance has been largly at the expense of 'management traits’. The complaint I hear most often in my area nowadays is NOT concerning varroa problems, but instead about hot colonies. This IMO, seems to suggest a failure in proper selection occurring at the breeders end. I don’t want to publicly describe the situation as catastrophic, just that it is certainly a severe annoyance and thorn in the side (or should I say stinger in the side) ;) of beekeepers in my area. Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' FeralBeeProject.com ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 18:27:39 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: mites and CCD In-Reply-To: <00a101c7e26f$b5d1c7e0$b3ab5142@MyPC> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit randy oliver wrote: > > Your contention that CCD is nothing but a mite issue has been noted by > the List. Researchers are testing that hypothesis as we speak. I > eagerly await their results. I do not contend that CCD is a mite issue. Something like CCD existed before mites. My contention is that it is not the main problem but mites are the main problem facing beekeeping. If it is a new virus or an existing virus variant, then mites are still the main problem. My other contention is as noted, that many have no idea what they are looking at but call it CCD so CCD has become, in the press and with some beekeepers, the major problem for beekeeping. It is not. Mites are. Nice posts, Jim and Bob. Exceptionally informative. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 19:49:27 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John & Christy Horton Subject: mites and CCD-- ? For Dr Bromenshenk MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dr Bromenshenk, I have read a report that was lnked on the earlier emails about the experiment about the experiment done treating half of D. Hackenburgs hives w/radiation etc. vs half of hives w/no treatment. Do you know of anybody who has examined the numbers on this experiment recently? I have asked this question before. It would be nice to get some numbers from what i believe could be a very revealing statistc. As i said earlier, it is hard for me to imagine a more straightforward way to get (what could be) a singularly important statistic than the experiment described. I reallly dont even care about tthe conclusions, Id just like to see the results- ie comparative survival numbers etc.. Thanks John Horton Alabama USA ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 23:11:09 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: moving hives alone? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Waldemar wrote: >As mechanical engineer, I see shortcomings in the wheelbarrow in that it >would elevate the center of gravity of the hive with respect to the ground >and there is too >much room of sideway tipping about the wheel. Although I have never seen one, the McBean hive barrow had a bicycle wheel (large wheel - good for rough ground) but then kept the centre of gravity low - perhaps a bit like this: * * _________ * ___* / * *\__________/ * * Hmmm, never was that good at drawing, but perhaps you get the idea. The large wheel and low centre of gravity apparently made it very stable. Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 21:58:19 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: mites and CCD-- ? For Dr Bromenshenk MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mr. Horton: You will have to ask Jeff Pettis or David Hackenberg for updated numbers on the irradiated hive experiment. I've not seen an update since the Beltsville meeting. I have talked to David Hackenberg, and he says bees on irradiated equipment are doing better - but then again, I'd expect to see a change since wax can harbor lots of things. The data that you are asking for has not, to the best of my knowledge, been published; and an update has not been distributed to the CCD Working Group. Jerry ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 18:59:44 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: mites and CCD In-Reply-To: <46C8C3DB.10504@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bill Truesdell wrote: My other contention is as noted, that many have no idea what they are looking at but call it CCD so CCD has become ....... But, have we not be informed as to what conditions to search for when trying to confirm the existence of CCD in a collapsing colony? If we apply that criteria and it comes up positive for each piece of the criteria given, do we not have a strong case for the existence of CCD in the examined colony? Mike in LA --------------------------------- Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 20:14:05 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: moving hives with wheelbarrow In-Reply-To: <00ed01c7e2ad$d92fda40$8e916a58@office> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit You could modify a regular wheelbarrow as follows. 1. Change the handles from wood to metal tubing with the following modifications: a. Have the two handles come straight back from the tire axle with a cross stabilizing bar right behind the wheel. b Just aft of the stabilizing bar have the handles spread to about the width of a hive body and also drop to about four inches above the ground and then run aft about a foot longer than the length of a bottom board. At that point have the handles bend upwards to a height about three inches below the height of your hands when standing upright and then run further aft for about eighteen inches. This would be where you grasp the handles to lift and move the modified wheelbarrow. c Have cross stabilizing bars located at each bend of the aft running handles. 2. Put a wooden platform across the lower portion of the handles (The place where you would put your hive/supers). This would significantly lower the CG and would allow quicker reaction if the load becomes unbalanced to restabilize the load. (Set the back end down) Mike in LA _______ / )--- / \---------------/ --------------------------------- Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 10:17:02 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: 'Breeding Mite Resistance in Italian Bees' In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Joe > ONLY since the quest for a varroa resistant mite (IMO, after 1995) have I > seen such a Hodgepodge of ‘bee flavors‘. Prior to this, the ‘so called > Italian’ strains dominated my area since the later 1800‘s so I > understand. Any swarm caught would have accompanying traits that were > very predictable and highly manageable. What you describe is stability that is brought about by large closed populations. However even though the results were reasonably predictable you would have still applied further selection. > NOW, it’s a risky adventure to > collect swarms without heavy assessing and heavy culling. The price you pay for 'the grass is greener' and 'magic bullets', the only way out of that is educating beekeepers and we all know how hard that is as all beekeepers are 'experts'. > The complaint I hear most often in my area nowadays is NOT concerning > varroa problems, but instead about hot colonies. All too often we see, honey production or a feature like perceived varroa tolerance, being selected for too early in the breeding process, in a previous post I mentioned the tortoise and the hare, but by being to quick in our selection we are really throwing out babies in bath water. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 10:25:18 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: 'Breeding Mite Resistance in Italian Bees' In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Steve > We are talking about the DOMESTICATED honey bee here are we not? The problem is not whether the bees are domesticated or wild, without man's intervention the spread of varroa would have been much more slow, but it would still have spread and even with the lower rate that would have happened in the absence of beekeepers, the effect on colonies would have been similar, although the slowness of spread may have helped host and parasite co-exist better than they do at present. I always try and consider what nature is trying to do and work with it, sudden changes in management or genetics work against the survival of colonies without beekeepers. I have always had the goal in my breeding work of producing something that is self propagating rather than requiring intervention. > We consistently confuse the distinction between what is a problem > for the honeybee and what is a problem for us beekeepers. This is true all over the world, but shows up very strongly in US compared to Europe. > Having said that, I personally find interfering is a big part of what makes > beekeeping interesting. I want control! So do I ! But we have to be mindful of whether our control is beneficial or Machiavellian > Cell size anyone? I believe there is more to be known about cell size, but it is not a 'one size fits all' thing, we need to do some research to get answers, but the researchers have already made up their minds on this issue and would rather spend their funds elsewhere. > Unnaturally close distribution of colonies? Etc? Leslie Bailey did some work on this and I believe that his work should be followed up, it might be unpalatable to large commercial organisations to limit the numbers of hives in a given area, but if there are survival benefits, it might be worthwhile changing the commercial practices. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 11:41:12 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: moving hives alone? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>Although I have never seen one, the McBean hive barrow had a bicycle wheel (large wheel - good for rough ground) but then kept the centre of gravity low... Like a low-boy tractor trailer? That's a good idea. I would also use two wheels to prevent the load from tipping sideways. Waldemar ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 11:54:13 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Extracting Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>I am also looking for a good way to deal with uncapping and the cappings left over. I am considering rigging a mesh basket into the extractor just for cappings. You can put your cappings in 3 nylon mesh bags (such as used to filter paint) and tie the bags inside your extractor in a way that will balance the load and spin most of the honey out. You can also suspend the nylon bags with cappings over pails and let the honey drain down overnight. Just make sure there is not too much humidity in the room. Waldemar ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 08:21:23 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?UTF-8?Q?Peter_L._Borst?=" Subject: Re: 'Breeding Mite Resistance in Italian Bees' Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dave Cushman wrote: >I am afraid your new statement does not hold up, where in US can you >find localised or naturalised bees of any race or strain with a proven >history ? That is what I have been saying all along. The existence of localized or naturalized bees has never been proved to my satisfaction. There are so many migratory bee operations you can't avoid the influx of their bees and their pests. Witness how fast varroa populated the country. The fact that all honey bee colonies got varroa in such a short time almost certainly confirms the idea that every colony in the US is within the flight distance of somebody else's bees. pb ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 12:32:56 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Excluders... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>The subject of queen excluders came up and I expressed the opinion that "one half of the room uses them and the other half doesn't, and they'll never agree on it". The following experience is not scientific but convinced me. This year I put my excluders aside and gave each colony a 3 deep nest with 4-5 medium supers. The result was an average yield of 225 lbs of honey per hive. I had never had this with excluders and 2 deep nests. Not even close - I'd be lucky to get over a 100 lb of honey. Did the queens lay in the supers above the 3 deep nests? Only some drones in the few cells between the supers. The bees would clean these cells of honey after my inspections and the queen would then have access to lay in them. The supers filled up so quickly with honey that the queens had not choice but to lay in the deeps where they had plenty of space. The drone cells bet. the supers was evidence that the queens take walks up into the supers. >>I like the idea of a one story brood nest enforced by a queen excluder. It makes a very efficient and well organized hive. Perhaps for the beekeeper. I know Roger Morse advocated this set-up but I also know that my queens would run out of room in one week in a single deep at the peak of brood rearing. If you limit the brood rearing this way, you will get much less honey. Honey production is all about field force strength and space. >>A third way is the use a deep or two and then all shallows, with no excluder. The larger brood combs seem to hold the queen in the brood nest; the smaller frames seem less inviting to her and she is not apt to wander up very often. A deep or two will not keep brood out of the shallow supers. The bees will build honey comb between the tops and bottoms of the frames in their quest for continuous comb and will push the honey up and out as far as they can as they set up their oval brood nest that will reach up into the shallow supers. I have seen this many times. If you give them only a limited number of shallows, to keep the queen down with overhead honey, the broodnest will get flooded with nectar and you'll have crowding swarms on your hands. Waldemar Long Island, NY ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 12:34:49 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Deeps for honey production. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>I know several in this county that use deeps only and make no distinction between a brood frame and a honey frame. Curious: do they use 10 frames in the overhead 'honey deeps'? Uncapping frames from 10-frame boxes is often a pain in the neck. On occasion, I have put a deep with foundation on a hive to have drawn deep frames for future splits and would extract them as soon as they were capped. Often the cappings were below the frame bars and it was a pain to get the knife in the there to uncap. Nothing beats the fat combs from 8-frame boxes. :) Waldemar Long Island, NY ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 13:20:49 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: 'Breeding Mite Resistance in Italian Bees' Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>A problem which has been resolved I have been told and the new VSH and Minnesota Hygienic lines are varroa tolerant AND prolific. Bob, can you recommend some sources for this cross? I have also been told that this a very good cross. >>...or the varroa tolerant line open mates for a couple years then varroa tolerance slips away. Are there commercial operations that you know of that continue selecting for hygienic behavior and varroa tolerance and succeed at it? I am a big proponent of self-sufficiency. Buying some genetics from time to time is ok but I'd prefer to raise most of my own queens. >>Yugo... Somewhat inbred but varroa tolerant and untreated. Are they reasonably productive? Waldemar ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 15:00:10 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: moving hives alone? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Waldemar wrote: > Like a low-boy tractor trailer? That's a good idea. I would also use two > wheels to prevent the load from tipping sideways. I think that the one large wheel would be more practical on uneven ground as it would stay upright - two wheels would not be good on sloping ground. Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 09:59:34 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Timothy C. Eisele" Subject: Re: moving hives alone? In-Reply-To: <20070820.044112.19602.1@webmail10.dca.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit waldig@netzero.com wrote: > Like a low-boy tractor trailer? That's a good idea. I would also use two wheels to prevent the load from tipping sideways. > > I have both one-wheel and two-wheel wheelbarrows. I find that on level ground (like a lawn or driveway) two wheels are fine, but on uneven ground it is actually more stable to use one wheel instead of two. If you hit a bump or hole with one wheel, the barrow just goes up and down (or in extreme cases, stops so that you have to back up and go around). If you have two wheels, every time you hit a bump or hole with one, the whole thing tips (and if you hit one big enough to stop the wheel, it spins around sideways). The wheelbarrow I use for moving hive bodies and supers around is a one-wheel type with the basin removed and replaced with a flat wooden deck. It works fine, although I never use it to move active hives that are more than one story tall. -- Tim Eisele tceisele@mtu.edu ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 10:00:05 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Steve_Noble?= Subject: Re: Extracting Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit “You can put your cappings in 3 nylon mesh bags…” Only don’t do like I did last year and try to hand squeeze the honey out through the bags. You will wind up with a lot of tiny wax particles in your honey. Steve Noble ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 10:05:12 -0400 Reply-To: lloyd@rossrounds.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Removing honey from cappings MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Waldemar said "You can also suspend the nylon bags with cappings over pails and let the honey drain down overnight. Just make sure there is not too much humidity in the room." One of my earliest memorys is honey combs suspended in a cotton bag over a wash tub. The combs were from a bee tree and were suspended behind an old-fashioned wood stove. The kind with burners on top (heated by the wood fire) and an oven. Of course, the stove also heated the room, which is where we lived during the winter. This kept the honey warm and the heat meant that there was little humidity. The combs would hang there for 2-3 weeks and drain just about dry. Nylon will work much better than cotton, but in those days (late 40's) there wasn't much nylon around for such purposes. Nothing else in the house was heated. Lloyd -- Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 11:06:38 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Extracting -dry cappings In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Many years ago (about 15+) I got a call from Organic farming and Gardening. I was the State point of contact for beekeeping and they were going to have an article on it in their mag. I did not have an extractor and came up with the idea to strain crushed honeycomb through my wife's old panty hose. Added the comb to the hose starting at the foot, squeezed it to "extract" the honey and let it drain dry. Worked great. I described my method and they included that in the article. Wife is still not too happy every time I mention that her old panty hose was memorialized in a national magazine. I strongly recommended that you do this alone since friends may wonder just what your problem is, squeezing panty hose. It also might confirm their suspicions. Bill Truesdell (who quickly bought an extractor) Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 16:03:24 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Removing honey from cappings Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>Of course, the stove also heated the room, which is where we lived during the winter. This kept the honey warm and the heat meant that there was little humidity. The combs would hang there for 2-3 weeks and drain just about dry. That long, eh? Neat. The Amish come to mind when I read your description. Anybody know first-hand how the Amish keep their bees and how they harvest their honey? I usually let the cappings bags hangs for a couple of days to get most of the honey out. I then place the still wet cappings in small batches in an empty medium over the inner cover of a strong hive and let the bees suck them dry. >>Nothing else in the house was heated. A little rough but I am sure the conditions resulted a hardy folk. :) Waldemar Long Island, NY ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 11:12:23 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: 'Breeding Mite Resistance in Italian Bees' MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob, can you recommend some sources for this cross? Minnesota/VSH breeders can be purchased from Glenn apiaries. >Are there commercial operations that you know of that continue selecting for hygienic behavior and varroa tolerance and succeed at it? Purvis Brothers. However several other queen producers advertise they select for hygienic (such as Pat Heitkam). >>Yugo... Somewhat inbred but varroa tolerant and untreated. Are they reasonably productive? Not productive at all. Have got poor brood viability but they winter good, produce some honey and were gentle the last I checked. The old beekeeper (in his eighties) last bought queens (Yugo) years ago (when first brought in and none since). Is in an area beekeepers do not place bees ( smartweed country) so his bees are getting very inbred. His son lets the old beekeeper keep his bees as long as I agree to remove the hives after he passes on. So I will most likely end up with his bees. His bees produce a third of the crop they did a decade ago. The beekeeper uses deep honey supers and carries the deeps up five or so stairs into an old building to extract. Brings the boxes from the bee yard in a wheel barrow. The honey is the worst tasting honey I or Osage honey farm has ever bought but we still keep buying to humor the old beekeeper. He had a 10-20 frame Dadant extractor but quite using and now does his crop with a four frame handcrank. Last year he wanted Mike V. to buy his 10-20 so he did and hauled back to sell (or sit in a corner of his building). Mike uses a 60 frame cowen and produces around 300 ( and up) barrels a year. Mike Vanarsdall ( Missouri Valley Honey , Nebraska) and I will buy his honey despite the color and flavor mainly because we like to visit and listen to his lifetime of beekeeping stories. Now he only has around three 55 gallon drums a year to sell. You can't help but love the guy as he has us make the check out to his church to help with sending the young people of his church to church camp. bob -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 12:51:27 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Benson Subject: Re: Excluders... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ---- "waldig@netzero.com" wrote: This year I put my excluders > aside and gave each colony a 3 deep nest with 4-5 medium supers. The result was an > average yield of 225 lbs of honey per hive. I had never had this with excluders and 2 > deep nests. Not even close - I'd be lucky to get over a 100 lb of honey. Is it possible that the thing that made the difference was the three deep broodnests and not the excluders? A big ol broodnest like that, if properly expanded could make for loads of bees, and lods of bees means more honey. I guess I would be more convinced if you compared three deep BN with excluders to 3 deep BN without, or two deep broodnests with excluders vs two deep broodnests without excluders. Otherwise how do you tell the apples from the oranges? Me, I have not noticed a difference with or without excluders, if one uses drawn comb. Keith ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 09:34:20 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tom Elliott Subject: Re: Excluders... In-Reply-To: <2997158.256141187628687169.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web25-z01> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Keith, > Me, I have not noticed a difference with or without excluders, if one uses drawn comb. Here in the Anchorage area of Alaska a single deep broodnest will produce swarms reliably in a large percentage of hives. And this is with new packages, which the books tell me are not likely to swarm. Tom Elliott Chugiak, AK ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 18:58:03 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Excluders... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>Is it possible that the thing that made the difference was the three deep broodnests and not the excluders? Without a doubt, the 3 deeps was the primary reason for the very large crop. Like you said, the more bees, the more honey [if they don't swarm first though!!]. Reading Wright and others, who have done comparisons, one gets less honey with the excluders for the good reasons they list. >From what I've read and observed, excluders cause the broodnest to get flooded with nectar which then leads to swarming. I did have a much larger swarm issue with 2 deeps and excluders. I've been raising very good, prolific queens. With the excluders in place, the bees would always have the nest flooded with nectar and attempt to swarm throughout the season. Even installing young queens would not stop them. The crowding with the excluders in over 2 deeps may it impossible. With the 3 deeps, as long as I managed to keep the nest from getting nectar flooded by providing overhead storage space, the bees would switch from swarm prep to nectar gathering. >>I guess I would be more convinced if you compared three deep BN with excluders to 3 deep BN without... I might do it if it were not for the fact that with 3 deeps you don't need an excluder to keep the queen out of the supers. :) Like I said, she will go up into the supers but not lay in them. The only use for excluders I now have in my operation is to separate queens in nuc colonies stocked on top of each other. That they do very well especially if one doubles up. >>Me, I have not noticed a difference with or without excluders, if one uses drawn comb. Do you run 2 deeps and, if you don't exclude, do you end up with brood in the supers? Waldemar ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 19:12:19 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: 'Breeding Mite Resistance in Italian Bees' Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>Minnesota/VSH breeders can be purchased from Glenn apiaries. Right. Those breeder queens are expensive (for a sideliner like me). I would like to get some open mated queens. Some people have mentioned that the VSH trait should be passed on to the next generation. >>Yugos... Not productive at all. Have got poor brood viability but they winter good, produce some honey and were gentle the last I checked. Are there no other Yugo lines in the US to add new genetics and improve the old beekeeper's bees? >>The beekeeper uses deep honey supers and carries the deeps up five or so stairs into an old building to extract. This eighty something year old must be of some hardy stock. It's hard (dangerous) enough to carry a deep full of honey on flat ground. One day he may collapse with a deep in his hands... Try to pursuade him to switch to shallows or at least mediums. >>Mike Vanarsdall <...> and I will buy his honey despite the color and flavor mainly because we like to visit and listen to his lifetime of beekeeping stories. That's mighty decent of you. It's becoming rare for the older people to provide a transitional function with the younger generation. Waldemar ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 15:38:22 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: 'Breeding Mite Resistance in Italian Bees' MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I would like to get some open mated queens. Maybe you could get a queen in the spring from Randy Oliver. >Are there no other Yugo lines in the US to add new genetics and improve the old beekeeper's bees? Yugo's are simply Carniolans so a cross with a NWC would be a decent outcross. Despite what a few people have said the Russian bee (as imported) is not a carniolan. However if I was to pick a bee to cross with a Russian/Russian I think a NWC would be my pick. >This eighty something year old must be of some hardy stock. He's full blooded German like my wife. > Try to pursuade him to switch to shallows or at least mediums. All of us have tried but he is set in his ways! He also does a small truck farm for vegetables. Hot as it is today I bet he is out working in his garden. Like an old bee I expect he will be found dead in his garden or bee yard one of these days. he is doing what he wants to do so we (and his family) leave him be. His mind is as sharp as can be. I have never seen a senior moment with the old beekeeper. Until I came around he did not know what PMS was. He thought it was foulbrood. So he culled all those hives. By removing those hives (with high varroa load showing PMS ) he was in fact selecting for varroa tolerant bees. By burning the equipment he was getting rid of virus contaminated comb. bob -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 18:33:25 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Benson Subject: Re: Excluders... In-Reply-To: <20070820.115803.1998.1@webmail01.dca.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit waldig@netzero.com wrote: > Do you run 2 deeps and, if you don't exclude, do you end up with brood in the supers? > Fairly frequently - but not much in most cases. Keith ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 18:34:13 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Benson Subject: Re: Excluders... In-Reply-To: <46C9D09C.9070408@gci.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tom Elliott wrote: > Keith, >> Me, I have not noticed a difference with or without excluders, if one >> uses drawn comb. > Here in the Anchorage area of Alaska a single deep broodnest will > produce swarms reliably in a large percentage of hives. And this is > with new packages, which the books tell me are not likely to swarm. I don't doubt that at all. Round here most folks run one deep, or a deep and a shallow or medium as a broodnest. I use at least 2 deeps. Keith ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 09:04:46 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: 'Breeding Mite Resistance in Italian Bees' In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Peter > That is what I have been saying all along. The existence of localized or > naturalized bees has never been proved to my satisfaction. There are so many > migratory bee operations you can't avoid the influx of their bees and their > pests. OK, the situation is messy, but the local conditions still exist in the local environment, it would only take a few years to re-build a population that was partly moulded by those conditions. Judicial raising of queens with a known track record in the area would further bolster the background. I did not say that it would be easy or that it could be done 'at the drop of a hat', you have to 'want to' improve your bees and put in whatever effort is required to get there. There are no answers 'off the shelf'. While you are casting about for the magic bullets, the years are slipping by during which you could have made real progress. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 22:22:14 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John & Christy Horton Subject: mites and CCD-- another ? For Dr Bromenshenk(or anybody) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aaron, I dont know what happened with this....this is the second time Ive sent it. If I have missed something Im sorry. Thanks John Thank you for your prompt reply Dr Bromenshenk. Yes, i agee that irradiating should cause any deadouts to perform somewhat better than non-irradiated deadouts. Does anybody know how to get in touch with Jeff Pettis or David Hackenburg? Again Thanks, and thanks for your research in all areas. I have sensed a genuine wonder in you for this amazing little creature called the honeybee. John Horton Dr Bromenshenk wrote > > > >> You will have to ask Jeff Pettis or David Hackenberg for updated numbers >> on >> the irradiated hive experiment. I've not seen an update since the >> Beltsville >> meeting. I have talked to David Hackenberg, and he says bees on >> irradiated >> equipment are doing better - but then again, I'd expect to see a change >> since >> wax can harbor lots of things. >> > ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 07:40:54 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: Seeley Study finds cell size uniform MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Seeley and Morse's 1976 study shows that worker cell size is uniform and averages 5.2 mm in width. Variation appears to be greater in honey storage cells, and is often caused by stretching. Excerpts The basic nest organization is honey storage above, brood nest below, and pollen storage in between. Compared to combs used for honey storage, combs of the brood nest arc generally darker and more uniform in width and in cell form. Drone comb is located on the brood nest's periphery. Table II provides a systematic comparison of these differences. TABLE II. -- Comparison of brood comb and honey comb Brood comb Comb width is uniform : worker comb = 21 - 24 mm wide, drone comb = 25 - 29 mm wide. Cell walls are straight. Cell size is uniform : cells are either worker cells or drone cells. Cell cross section : regularly hexagonal. Cell pattern is regular : cells arranged in straight, horizontal rows. Color is dark brown or black. Honey comb Comb width is variable. Cell walls are often curved. Cell size is variable : cells are of various diameters and depths. Cell cross section : often irregularly hexagonal. Cell pattern is often irregular : cells often arranged in curved series. Color is often light yellow to light brown. Since newly built combs have regular cell shapes and patterns, we interpret the structural irregularities in the honey storage combs (except for the comb width variation) as distortions induced after comb construction by the heavy honey they hold. Irregular cells are satisfactory honey containers, but uniformity in size and shape may be essential for cells used in brood rearing. Average cell diameter (wall-wall) x depth : worker cell . . . 5.2 mm x 11.0 mm drone cell . . . 6.2 mm x 12.5 mm FROM THE NEST OF THE HONEY BEE By T. D. SEELEY and R. A. MORSE ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 04:57:37 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: Study: Measure Groups of Bioactive Propolis Compounds to Determine Quality MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Study: Measure Groups of Bioactive Propolis Compounds to Determine Quality Chemical Characteristics of Poplar Type Propolis of Different Geographic Origin Apidologie 38 (2007) 306-306 http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/2007/08/study-measure-groups-of-bioactive.html Abstract - Validated spectrophotometric procedures were used to quantify three main groups of bioactive substances (phenolics, flavones/flavonols, flavanones/dihydroflavonols) in 114 samples of poplar-type propolis from different geographic origins… The results indicate that measuring the concentrations of groups of active compounds, rather than individual components, is an appropriate approach in developing quality standards for propolis. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 14:28:54 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Seeley Study finds cell size uniform In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Peter > Seeley and Morse's 1976 study shows that worker cell size is uniform > and averages 5.2 mm in width. If you take an average you will come up with a single size. How does he quantify the variations that he encountered and does he attribute any cause to the variations ? It only takes a pair of callipers a cut-throat (open) razor and maybe a magnifying glass to look for yourself, have you tried this ? We are not talking difficult or technical here, anybody can do this on their kitchen table. I have, and I have not seen uniformity, in fact if you measure precisely enough it is hard to find two cells the same. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 14:07:11 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Seeley... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Interesting. Was the 5.2 mm worker comb from feral nests? The worker cells from my feral nest removals have conistantly (with a single larger exception) been 5,0 mm across in the center of the nest. I removed a newly moved in swarm in Baldwin, NY on Friday. The swarm had moved in about 3 weeks ago and the largest comb was about 12 in. long in the vertical direction. It would have been larger had the inexperienced exterminator not knocked off half the bees! Fortunately, there was no insecticide residue in the combs since the nest was much higher that the entrance. As expected, just about all the cells were devoted to raising brood at this time. I did not measure the extreme cell sizes at the top and the bottom but one could visually tell the cells at the top of the comb were larger than the ones on the bottom. All the cells had either eggs or larvae in them. There was a cell size reduction as one went down in the vertical direction although the majority of the cells in the middle of the comb were about the same 5,0 mm size. The queen was longish, slender but not big. The queens I've collected from that area (southern and central Nassau County) this year have had a similar body shape. Some of the bees had an interesting light coloration - hinted of the Cordovan strain - not often seen around here. Very gentle bees despite the heavy predation by yellow jackets this year. Hardy used any smoke. I don't know of any beekeepers in this highly populated area and so I am not sure of the origin of this colony. The queen was again unmarked. This year there have been very few spring swarms and quite a few in late July/ early August. I assume this is due to the cold snap in April that must have set back the feral colonies' development. Waldemar Long Island, NY ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 07:10:08 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Seeley Study finds cell size uniform In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Well glad to see Seeley and Morse were seeing uniformity in the broodnest area after 3/4s of a century of upsizing, and not various sizes all over the place like others see in so many hives/colonies today due to so much mongrelization. Maybe with more regression back in another 3/4 of a century, the bees will be back down to 4.8mm and and smaller, below the 4.9mm center for natural, and still with uniformity in the broodnest, and not so many variance cell sizes. Dee A. Lusby ____________________________________________________________________________________ Got a little couch potato? Check out fun summer activities for kids. http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=summer+activities+for+kids&cs=bz ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 07:14:20 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Seeley Study finds cell size uniform In-Reply-To: <46CAE896.5080504@lineone.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dave: There is uniformity in general and non-uniformity in splitting hairs when measuring cells that the eyes cannot detect. It's the non-uniformity that the eyes detect in mass that is the problem today in the broodnest area, and beekeepers then being told it is okay with so much transitional cells to be used there for variance by others. Dee A. Lusby ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sick sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's Comedy with an Edge to see what's on, when. http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/222 ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 14:03:15 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: Re: Seeley Study finds cell size uniform MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline waldig@netzero.com wrote: >Interesting. Was the 5.2 mm worker comb from feral nests? Yes, that's the whole point. Seeley and Morse wrote: > The natural honey bee nest was studied in detail to better understand the honey bee's natural living conditions. To describe the nest site we made external observations on 39 nests in hollow trees. We collected and dissected 21 of these tree nests to describe the nest architecture. < dave.cushman@LINEONE.NET wrote: > If you take an average you will come up with a single size. How does he quantify the variations that he encountered and does he attribute any cause to the variations ? As far as variation goes, they described a great deal of variation in the honey storage area but very little in the brood area. They give a range for the depth of cells (worker comb being 21 to 24 mm thick, -- that's about .90 to .94 inches) but no range for the cell width. I assume it varied but little and certainly less than .1 mm or I think they would have mentioned that. deelusbybeekeeper@YAHOO.COM wrote: > Well glad to see Seeley and Morse were seeing uniformity in the broodnest area after 3/4s of a century of upsizing The notion that wild honey bee comb cell size is unnaturally large has never been proven to my satisfaction. Wild honey bees instinctively build the size that is correct for that species in that locale. -- Peter L. Borst Danby, NY USA 42.35, -76.50 picasaweb.google.com/peterlborst ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 14:23:37 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John Howe Subject: bees hanging out MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear People-- I have two hives of Italian bees. One behaves "normally". Never mind what that means. It's the other hive: I have bees all over the outside of the hive just hanging out and = remaining still.. They've been that way for weeks through all kinds of = weather, hot, cool -- even rain.I have two hive bodies and recently = added a honey super (without a queen excluder). They should have room = to go inside but refuse. There is just a normal amount of "flight = traffic" around the hive. No swarming in the air. It makes it very = difficult to inspect them since they are on the nasty side and they all = fly up into the air when you smoke or disturb them. What is going on. = Any ideas? Yours, John Howe ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 15:48:02 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Seeley Study finds cell size uniform In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter L. Borst wrote: > The notion that wild honey bee comb cell size is unnaturally large has > never been proven to my satisfaction. Wild honey bees instinctively > build the size that is correct for that species in that locale. > > There is one other major change since the study and that is AHB (which is now found even in the NEUSA but not in Arizona) which does reside on small cell size. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 18:29:12 -0400 Reply-To: lloyd@rossrounds.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Africanized Honey Bee MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Bill said "which is now found even in the NEUSA but not in Arizona" Bill...you failed to mention that the AHB is also not found in a very small area of NE Texas; although it is found in the rest of Texas, Louisiana, etc. A certain well-connected producer of queens happens to reside there. Concerning the AHB being found in the NEUSA, a couple of years ago I caused a firestorm when I casually mentioned the "the AHB was not found in NYS". I was accused of all kinds of malfeasance, not to mention that I didn't know what I was talking about. (As it turned out, the NYS Inspection Service sent bees from the hive in question for analysis and it turned out to be the 'first' positively identified AHB hive in the state.) But I digress... In a conversation last week I was told by a migratory beekeeper who winters in FL that "we all are bringing them north because we don't necessarily know they are Africanized when we put them on the truck.' 'After a few weeks in the NYS yards, you find out in a hurry which ones are Africanized, and keep away from them when in the yards unless someone else is there to smoke them while you take the cover off.' 'If you drive next to them they attack the truck and it sounds like buckshot bouncing off the cab." This particular guy has not seen any signs that other hives are becoming Africanized, through supercedure or swarming, while up north. He takes 100% of his bees south for the winter so has no idea how well they would do at over wintering in NYS. -- Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 18:33:34 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: 'Breeding Mite Resistance in Italian Bees' MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 20/08/2007 13:29:25 GMT Standard Time, peterlborst@GMAIL.COM writes: The fact that all honey bee colonies got varroa in such a short time almost certainly confirms the idea that every colony in the US is within the flight distance of somebody else's bees. Those that aren't would soon get inbred; however I think the point Dave makes is that bees or queens are moved around vast distances in vast numbers. Chris ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 15:41:02 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Seeley Study finds cell size uniform In-Reply-To: <46CB4172.3070705@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Peter: Wild honey bees instinctively > build the size that is correct for that species in that locale. > Reply: With one exception: each layer of hybridization makes for bigger sizing and complex hybridication is not naturally found in Nature. Only simple hybridization is found in Nature. Dee A. Lusby ____________________________________________________________________________________ Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, news, photos & more. http://mobile.yahoo.com/go?refer=1GNXIC ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 18:42:38 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?UTF-8?Q?Peter_L._Borst?=" Subject: Re: Africanized Honey Bee Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Tue, 21 Aug 2007 18:29:12 -0400, Lloyd Spear wrote: >This particular guy takes 100% of his bees south for the winter so has no idea how well they would do at over wintering in NYS. Whether he takes 100% of his bees back south depends on whether they swarm while they're here, doesn't it? This year I have seen a lot of dead-outs being repopulated by stray swarms. No doubt many of those originate from hives that winter in Florida. Bottom line is: if you get swarms, check them out carefully for temperament. Getting bees ID'd is a very slow process from what I hear, so I would recommend take charge of any vicious bees on your own. You don't need anybody's permission to ice the bees. Pete ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 18:53:53 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Excluders... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 21/08/2007 00:11:25 GMT Standard Time, kgbenson@SC.RR.COM writes: do you end up with brood in the supers? > Wax moth? Chris ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 16:19:57 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: 'Breeding Mite Resistance in Italian Bees' In-Reply-To: <000701c7e344$e57cef80$11bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bob Harrison wrote:>>Yugo... Somewhat inbred but varroa tolerant and untreated. The old beekeeper (in his eighties) last bought queens (Yugo) years ago ......and I will buy his honey despite the color and flavor mainly because we like to visit and listen to his lifetime of beekeeping stories. Bob, Have you thought about taping his stories for historical purposes? Would probably make a great book of short tales. Mike in LA --------------------------------- Ready for the edge of your seat? Check out tonight's top picks on Yahoo! TV. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ******************************************************