From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 10:54:14 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-87.2 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,AWL, MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 457A649087 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:52:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SFhrpq016524 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:52:20 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:52:17 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0709A" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 162165 Lines: 3824 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2007 07:42:23 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Ob hive maintenance. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > what is the best way to clean the glass? Alcohol? WD-40. =20 Aaron Morris - thinking alcohol is for cocktails! ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 23:09:22 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Benson Subject: Re: Only 15 Percent of Infant Botulism Cases Attributed to Honey In-Reply-To: <46D883B1.3090809@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill Truesdell wrote: > Keith Benson wrote: >> It must be terribl;e to be one of those 15%, especially when it is so >> easily preventable. >> >> > I agree, but the fatality rate for infant botulism is less than 1% in > the USA, so even if you get it you have a better chance of survival > than most hospitalization causes. I know - but it often entails a hospital stay, an infant in distress and some pretty scared parents. Oh, and infant ICU cases are insanely expensive. It is ridiculously easy to avoid those cases caused by honey by simply not feeding kids <1 yr old honey. There are lots of things that sicken and kill infants that would not make it on those lists, but this one is wasy to avoid. Maybe I am risk aversive when it comes to my kids. Call me crazy. I look at it this way - my kids will have plenty of time to enjoy my honey from 1 year of age and older. If there was a huge benefit to feeding an infant honey to balance it against that would be one thing, but there isn't. http://www.drgreene.com/21_825.html some interesting factoids from this article: "it has been suggested as the cause of death in up to 10% of SIDS cases (/Nelson/ /Textbook of Pediatrics/; Saunders 1992)." "When infant botulism is diagnosed, the average Intensive Care Unit stay for the baby is about one month, typically including mechanical ventilation and continuous tube feedings. This is followed by another 2 weeks on the hospital ward, with a total hospital cost often exceeding $100,000 (/Pediatrics/; Feb 1991). " So why risk it? Keith ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2007 07:17:45 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: Honey and other environmental risk factors for infant botulism MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Greetings I remember the whole infant botulism scare back in the 1970s. It was thought to be a potential cause of sudden infant crib death. My first baby was born in 1974 and even though she was breast fed, we used to give her honey and water in a bottle because she cried in between feedings. So it was a little disconcerting to hear that we could have killed her with it. However, so far as I know, the link between honey and infant botulism has never been proved. They showed that botulism spores are in honey and since there is no real need to feed honey to babies, we were advised to stop doing it. Honey was included in baby formula for centuries prior to the advent of canned baby formula. Here are excerpts from the original 1979 study which *implicates* honey: > Infant botulism results from the in vivo production of toxin by Clostridium botulinum after it has colonized the infant's gut. Epidemiologic and laboratory investigations of this recently recognized disease were undertaken to identify risk factors and routes by which C. botulinum spores might reach susceptible infants. Clostridium botulinum organisms, but no preformed toxin, were identified in six different honey specimens fed to three California patients with infant botulism, as well as from 10% (9/90) of honey specimens studied. By food exposure history, honey was significantly associated with type B infant botulism (P = 0.005). > In California, 29.2% (12/41) of hospitalized patients had been fed honey prior to onset of constipation; worldwide, honey exposure occurred in 34.7% (28/75) of hospitalized cases. Of all food items tested, only honey contained C. botulinum organisms. One household vacuum cleaner dust specimen and five soil specimens (three from case homes, two from control homes) contained Clostridium botulinum. The known ubiquitous distribution of C. botulinum implies that *exposure to its spores is universal* and that host factors contribute importantly to the pathogenesis of infant botulism. However, honey is now an identified and avoidable source of C. botulinum spores, and it therefore should not be fed to infants. Source: J Pediatr. 1979 Feb;94(2):331-6.Links "Honey and other environmental risk factors for infant botulism." Arnon SS, Midura TF, Damus K, Thompson B, Wood RM, Chin J. -- Peter L. Borst Danby, NY USA 42.35, -76.50 picasaweb.google.com/peterlborst ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2007 07:43:48 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?UTF-8?Q?Peter_L._Borst?=" Subject: Re: Ob hive maintenance. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit waldig wrote: > Alcohol? I hope it won't make the bees mad. I have done hundreds of ether rolls in the field and often we transferred the dead bees to jars containing ethanol. The smell of alcohol never seems to annoy the bees while the smell of the ether seems to infuriate them. In fact, I have taken to washing my hands with regular rubbing alcohol throughout the day, as I do inspections. Not only does it remove the propolis build-up on my hands, it also seems to remove any other odors that might bother the bees. The constant use of rubbing alcohol on my hands seems to have no ill-effect; it does not dry them out like you might expect. It certainly does make the bees mad the way the ether does. Pete ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 22:27:17 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lionel Evans Subject: Re: Ob hive maintenance. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If I were going to clean the glass, I would remove it from the frame and clean it with Greased Lightening and then liquid detergent and water. Dry well after rinsing well. Lionel ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2007 12:20:32 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Melanoma In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Some interesting developments about malignant melanoma, which I have had twice, the first in a mole on my face and the second some years later a walnut size growth in a lymph node close to where the facial mole was located. A normal progression for melanoma. Usually it goes on from the lymph node, but mine stopped. I have posted before that it might have been because of bee stings which I started about a year after my melanoma for arthritis in my shoulder. Some recent studies on the action of interferon, which was thought to be involved in fighting melanoma directly, shows that it does not. It does boost the immune system, but melanoma is impervious to it directly. It is used after surgery to fight any remaining cancer cells. It comes with a price, since it can cause thyroid problems and makes you feel lousy for a year, the length of treatment. Add to that, its effectiveness is only about 10%. I thought bee stings were much more effective and now it seems they may be, since they also give a boost to the immune system with none of interferon's side effects. Also, when I visited my dermatologist, he said he has another beekeeper who is treating his melanoma just like I am with the same results. Granted, this is all anecdotal, but there may be something to bee stings, melanoma and the immune system. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2007 16:55:48 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: bill bartlett Subject: clean up an observation hive MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I was tasked to clean up an observation hive. I tried WD40, carburetor = cleaner, starting fluid (ether) and alcohol. The glass is the hardest to = clean. In my case it was plexiglass. I always thought plexiglass was = safer than glass. (1/4 inch) As with everything, there are pluses and = minuses. You can try to scrap off as much as you can with a plastic tool = (knife). All the above work. The carburetor cleaner worked best. The = other three I thought were right close. Then you have to take into = consideration what is the safest to work with. Or maybe what you have on = hand. That may be the alcohol. Whichever you use it will still take some = elbow grease. I still need to wash it down with some soap and water and = then a little paste wax on the outside wooden parts. Bill Bartlett ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2007 19:25:26 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Ob hive maintenance. In-Reply-To: <20070831.175656.7402.0@webmail03.dca.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit "waldig@netzero.com" wrote:The bees have build some comb out to the glass wall. After scraping it off, what is the best way to clean the glass? After scraping, the best thing I can recommend is polishing with paper towels until all the wax is gone. Be sure to have the glass on a solid, flat surface so that downward pressure does not break the glass. Mike in LA --------------------------------- Choose the right car based on your needs. Check out Yahoo! Autos new Car Finder tool. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2007 11:37:55 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Rowbottom Subject: Re: Only 15 Percent of Infant Botulism Cases Attributed to Honey In-Reply-To: <46D883B1.3090809@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Dear all For an interesting and detailed fairly recent report on Infant botulism relating primarily to the UK try: http://www.food.gov.uk/multimedia/pdfs/infantbotulismreport.pdf although the cynics might observe that the baby food industry (which is reported not to be a signigicant contributor to the risks) was well represented on the Committee producing the Report, and that beekeepers/honey packers (and honey is seen as a potentially significant risk) were not, apparently, represented at all . Best wishes Mike Rowbottom HARROGATE North Yorks UK ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2007 11:44:41 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Curtis Crowell Subject: Ob hive maintenance. Several years back I built an obs hive or box, which I often take into classrooms. Cleaning plexiglas is difficult to do without requiring a re-polishing of the surface to restore its transparency. I ended up using laminated plate glass (safety glass, or two pieces of glass with a layer of plastic between them, like windshield glass). I used a set of rail and stile router bits to build a four piece oak frame around each of the two pieces of glass. The frames are not glued, and in turn each framed piece of glass fits into a rabbeted slot on teach face of the box. When it's time to clean the glass pieces the whole thing comes apart, and I can carefully scrape and clean without damaging the glass, which is about 1/4 inch thick. The glass was pricey, perhaps $50. The box is a bit heavy, but so far it's been indestructible. It was in a wagon once, loaded with a brood frame, when the wagon rolled off a curb and toppled onto its side, with no damage to the box or the bees, and no "escapees." C.Crowell Hightstown, NJ ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2007 10:24:06 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: Honey and other environmental risk factors for infant botulism MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Studies have also implicated the natural environment as a source of C. botulinum spores. The organism causing infant botulism is usually the type found in the soil of the area where the illness occurs. C. botulinum has been isolated from environmental samples such as yard soil and vacuum cleaner dust in comparable frequencies from both case-associated and control homes in California. In Australia, the illnesses were associated with the organisms found in yard soils and drinking water. In Japan, C. botulinum type A organisms were detected not only in the honey fed to the infant before onset of illness but also in soil samples taken at the entry to the home and vacuum cleaner dust. The disease was found more often in infants who were white, had older mothers, and had mothers with more years of formal education. An important finding to these investigators was that illness in infants less than 2 months old was epidemiologically different from that in infants 2 months old or older. One risk factor for infants less than 2 months old was living in a rural area or on a farm; breast feeding was not a risk factor. One other factor that was considered was the disturbance of soils by agricultural and construction activities preceding the infant's illness. Possibly, disturbance of soils by earthquakes should also be included. Interestingly, there appeared to be a cluster of three infant botulism cases in Southern California following the January 1994 earthquake in the Northridge area, north of Los Angeles. Several parents of infant botulism cases remarked to the press about the clouds of dust that were encountered prior to the illness of their infants. In Colorado, three infants developed type A botulism within a 6-month period in 1981. The families lived near each other in mobile homes. A common link was that two of the infants had used the same crib. The first infant had used the crib until 1 month after his illness. The crib then was used by a second nonaffected infant and then given to a third infant, who later developed infant botulism. However, the common finding in all three cases was the presence of a C. botulinum type A organism in environmental samples, including the crib, soils, and household dust. In Pennsylvania, a case-control study of risk factors associated with infant botulism revealed that the infants were white, were primarily breast-fed, and had type B botulism. More than half of the fathers had daily contact with soil. source: Update: Infant Botulism THADDEUS F. MIDURA CLINICAL MICROBIOLOGY REVIEWS Apr. 1996, p. 119–125 Vol. 9, No. 2 Copyright 1996, American Society for Microbiology ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2007 10:32:00 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Steve_Noble?= Subject: clean up an observation hive Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The first thing that came to my mind on this subject was using a hair dryer to gently warm the surface and then wiping it clean with some paper towels. This could be tricky with plexiglass. You would have to be careful to warm it evenly and not get it too hot or it would warp. But with glass it should work well. Steve Noble ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 13:55:42 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Honey and other environmental risk factors for infant botu lism Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>However, the common finding in all three cases was the presence of a C. botulinum type A organism in environmental samples, including the crib, soils, and household dust. Is there any [well controlled] study that demonstrated that [few or many] b. spores in raw honey caused the onset of botulism in a healthy infant while there were no other such sources of the b. spores as you mention? I've done a few designs of experiments in manufacturing using control techniques by Taghuchi and others. It's critical [and definitely not easy] to eliminate all other potential causes that can affect the outcome. Waldemar ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 13:59:04 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Drying bee pollen. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I read that leaving an open jar with fresh bee pollen in a refrigerator freezer will remove the moisture from the pollen in about 3 days. Is this enough drying so that the jar can be closed up afterwards and stored at room temperature? Waldemar ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 14:06:05 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: clean up an observation hive Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>I tried WD40, carburetor cleaner, starting fluid (ether) and alcohol. I'd think that of the 3, alcohol would evaporate quickly and leave no residue that could affect the bees after the hive is closed up. Waldemar ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 15:11:51 +0100 Reply-To: max.watkins@vita-europe.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Max Watkins Organization: Vita (Europe) Ltd Subject: Re: Varroa front lines report In-Reply-To: <000701c7ebe1$6d8d6360$1dbc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 Quite right, Bob, =20 In hot conditions (ie above 77 =BAF) we have been recommending 2 x 25g Apiguard and possibly 3 x 25g for high infestation levels. This was = shown by studies run by Frank Eischen and by Eric Mussen. Also borne out by our earlier experience using Apiguard in hot countries such as Morocco, = Algeria, Southern Italy and France; at higher temperatures a 2 or 3 x 25g regime = with Apiguard can give the same high efficacy results as with a 2 x 50g = dosing. So no point in using a higher dose =96 less cost and better for the = bees. We recommend to switch the dosing according to the temperature and we have = this in our FAQ sheet. Label amendment is with the EPA. =20 The scoop is slightly oversized; shouldn=92t be, as we buy it as an off-the-shelf item and is supposed to deliver the exact dose. We are = looking for alternatives at the moment. The slight overdosing shouldn=92t affect = the bees but at high temperatures, the dose should in any case be reduced to = 25g (roughly half a scoop) per colony. =20 =20 All the best, =20 =20 Max =20 =20 =20 Dr Max Watkins Director Vita (Europe) Limited 21/23 Wote Street Basingstoke Hampshire RG21 7NE UK =20 Tel.: +44 (0)1256 473 177 Fax: +44 (0)1256 473 179 Mobile: +44 (0) 7767 815 370 =20 e-mail: max.watkins@vita-europe.com web: http://www.vita-europe.com =20 Skype: maxwatkins =20 Registered office (not for mail):=20 Scarfe House, 15 Archery Fields, Odiham, Hants RG29 1AE, UK Registered under Company Number 3328943 VAT Number: GB688 9774 37 =20 ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 10:36:44 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: bill bartlett Subject: Re: clean up an observation hive MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Waldemar wrote: >>>I tried WD40, carburetor cleaner, starting fluid (ether) and alcohol. > > I'd think that of the 3, alcohol would evaporate quickly and leave no > residue that could affect the bees after the hive is closed up. Billy Bee: I think you are right. There would be no residue to affect the bees but there is some residue from the alcohol mixing with the bees wax and propolis that has to be washed off with soap and water. I wouldn't worry too much about making the observation hive to clean because the bees are going to build brace comb again anyway. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 08:58:24 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Drying bee pollen. In-Reply-To: <20070903.065904.24816.1@webmail01.dca.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Walemar: No, not by a long shot. In fact impov might even get mold growing by leaving in and taking cap off in a refig/freezer which is quite the opposite effect. sincerely, Dee A. Lusby ____________________________________________________________________________________Ready for the edge of your seat? Check out tonight's top picks on Yahoo! TV. http://tv.yahoo.com/ ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 12:07:32 -0400 Reply-To: lloyd@rossrounds.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: drying pollen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline As to drying pollen in a freezer...it will only work if the freezer is self-defrosting. Then, the time depends on how deep the jar is. Better is to spread the pollen inside an empty ice cube tray. then three days might be about right. good luck, Lloyd -- Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 17:49:01 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Rowbottom Subject: Re: Honey and other environmental risk factors for infant botu lism In-Reply-To: <20070903.065542.24816.0@webmail01.dca.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 3 Sep 2007 at 13:55, waldig@netzero.com wrote: > Is there any [well controlled] study that demonstrated that [few or many] b. spores in raw > honey caused the onset of botulism in a healthy infant while there were no other such > sources of the b. spores as you mention? > Waldemar Waldemar Here is a quote from the report I referenced in an earlier post: Estimates from the literature of the minimum infectious dose 6.1 Proteolytic Clostridium botulinum has been identified as the agent responsible for most cases of infant botulism. Neurotoxigenic strains of C. baratii and C. butyricum have occasionally also been responsible for cases of infant botulism. 6.2 Information from the literature on the minimum infectious dose is extremely sparse. A commonly cited estimate is that the minimum infectious dose is 10-100 spores. This estimate is based on reports that honey samples that have been associated with infant botulism contain 5-25 spores per g, and 5-70 spores per g. Sugiyama et al estimated that the highest concentration of spores in honey not associated with infant botulism cases was 7 spores per 25g. The figure of 10-100 spores look like a best guess on the basis of not a lot of information Best wishes Mike Rowbottom HARROGATE North Yorks UK ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 16:42:25 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Rip Bechmann Subject: Ob hive maintenance. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable No one seems to have given, what I consider, the obvious answer - = ammonia. It is what is used to "strip" wax off floors and is a glass = cleaner without peer. I carry around a covered bucket, big enough to = hold my hive tools, of water, ammonia , liquid detergent and a "chore = boy". The next time you need a hive tool, the bucket has acted like a = little dish washer, most of the propolis and wax has shook loose, while = "chore boy" quickly removes any that remains. It also does a great job = on your hands and fingernails. I like to use "lemon scented" ammonia = since lemon scents resemble part of aggregation pheromone complex with = Apis. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 14:45:04 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Erin Martin Subject: bee behavior in CCD hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit For those of you who have seen failing hives firsthand, what sort of unusual behavior, if any, have you noticed? Have the bees been behaving differently than in hives that have struggled for other reasons? Apologies for such a basic question; I haven't seen any CCD hives or read reports that address this. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545433 ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 19:06:50 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: drying pollen Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I trap large quantities of pollen each season. I store the load in paper bags in a frost free freezer and that removes any excess moisture. Never had any problems excpet in a power outage, ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 01:01:12 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: drying pollen Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>I trap large quantities of pollen each season. I store the load in paper bags in a frost free freezer and that removes any excess moisture. Does the pollen need to remain in the freezer until consumption or can you take it out and store in jars at room temp at some point? Waldemar ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 01:12:30 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Honey and other environmental risk factors for infant botu lism Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>Information from the literature on the minimum infectious dose is extremely sparse. A commonly cited estimate is that the minimum infectious dose is 10-100 spores. This estimate is based on reports that honey samples that have been associated with infant botulism contain 5-25 spores per g, and 5-70 spores... Thank you, Mike. What I have read so far indicates that 1) honey (as well as other raw foods) may contain botulism spores and 2) infants can contract botulism from multiple sources and the condition can be fatal. I have not seen direct evidence that b. spores contained in honey alone cause botulism outbreaks in healthy infants. This is not to take the possibility lightly but, if b. spores, are also found in cleaner dust and other sources, should not those be banned or at least mentioned to parents as unacceptable around children. Seems honey is singled out as the only culprit. As a parent of an infant, I'd love to see a Pareto chart listing in descending order by spore count the various sources of b. spores. Waldemar ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 19:17:15 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: drying pollen In-Reply-To: <20070903.180112.16971.0@webmail10.dca.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit It is best kept in freezer. This is way CC Pollen does it by the way for best keeping of vitamins and minerals. Dee ____________________________________________________________________________________ Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell. http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/ ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 22:29:53 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Benson Subject: Re: Honey and other environmental risk factors for infant botu lism In-Reply-To: <20070903.181230.16971.1@webmail10.dca.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit waldig@netzero.com wrote: > if b. spores, are also found in cleaner dust and other sources, should not those be banned or at least mentioned to parents as unacceptable around children. Seems honey is singled out as the only culprit. This misses the point. Once can hardly avoid dust and the other sources, but one can easily avoid giving honey to an infant. Honey is singled out as the most easy to avoid. Keith ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 21:30:32 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tom Elliott Subject: Re: Honey and other environmental risk factors for infant botu lism In-Reply-To: <20070903.181230.16971.1@webmail10.dca.untd.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > I have not seen direct evidence that b. spores contained in honey alone cause botulism outbreaks in healthy infants. It is my understanding that normal healthy infants are not impacted by oral intake of the spores. A few otherwise healthy infants have digestive systems that do allow the growth of the bacteria. It is these few children who are at risk of contracting infant botulism. Does anyone have any information contrary to this understanding. I do not, now, recall where I got this idea. Tom Elliott Chugiak, AK ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 05:05:34 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John Goodman Subject: MOVING STORES (POLLEN & HONEY) FROM BOXES BELOW TO THOSE ABOVE! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit A couple of years ago I decided that in order to save lifting heavy boxes, I would convert from deep brood boxes (Modified British National) to shallow ones. I have got the bees to move the brood up to the new shallow boxes with some difficulty in what has been a generally difficult beekeeping season in Scotland. I now need to get the stores (pollen & honey) up from the old deep brood boxes to the new brood as soon as possible and before the end of the season. HI, I read somewhere that if one wanted stores moved up from below to a brood chamber above a quick way was to move the entrance up between the new brood above and the stores below whilst giving access to both sets of boxes from the new entrance between them. I have tried this for over a week without much success. It could be that putting a queen excluder below the new entrance but above the stores has put them off taking up the stores (I don't want the queen going down below again this late in the year)! I have given them another try with the stores below (queen excluder still in place) and if that doesn't work I am looking for advice on the best way to get the bees to move those stores up to the new brood nest where the queen is laying well. Does anyone have any ideas this late in the season? In a couple of weeks I shall have to treat for varroa before going away for a few weeks (not unfortunately to Apimondia in Australia). When I return the season in northern Europe will be over and it will probably be too late. If I put the old stores above this winter without a queen excluder the queen and bees will probably move up into the old brood boxes (which I don't want), if I leave a metal queen excluder in place, it will be cold and the bees may move up leaving the queen to starve below. Any useful tips would be much appreciated, John ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 06:30:07 +0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?B?QXJpIFNlcHDkbOQ=?= Subject: Re: Honey and other environmental risk factors for infant botu lism MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I remember reading that a few years ago there was a case of infant botulism in Norway. The bacteria in baby had same dna as the spores in honey that was fed to the baby. baby survived. Honey origin outside Norway. Ari Seppälä Finland ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 10:50:58 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Gavin Ramsay Subject: Re: Honey and other environmental risk factors for infant botulism MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi All Tom said: > It is my understanding that normal healthy infants are not impacted by > oral intake of the spores. Not too sure about that - it seems that the second month of life is the most risky time, probably due to the lack of protection from normal gut intestinal flora. http://www.annals.org/cgi/content/full/129/3/221 That review also quotes references to back up this statement: 'The source of ingestion is unknown in approximately 85% of cases; in up to 15% of cases, the ingestion of honey is suspected [49, 50].' Peter B wrote a few days back: > However, so far as I know, the link between honey and infant botulism has never been proved More references implicating honey in infant botulism are given in this book chapter: http://www.dhs.ca.gov/ps/dcdc/InfantBot/ibchap2-1.htm Stephen S. Arnon, M.D. (1998) A chapter for inclusion in the Textbook of Pediatric Infectious Disease, fourth edition. Ralph D. Feigin and James D. Cherry, editors. W.B. Saunders Company, Philadelphia, 1998 [snip] Honey is the one dietary reservoir of C. botulinum spores thus far definitively linked to infant botulism by both laboratory and epidemiologic evidence.6,10,30,33,37,43,45,58,69 To date, 32 instances worldwide are known in which C. botulinum spores have been found in the actual honey fed to the affected infant before onset of illness. In each instance, the toxin type (A or B) of the spores in the honey matched the toxin type (A or B) of the C. botulinum that caused the infant's illness; the probability that such perfect concordance occurred by chance is less than 1 in 1 billion. C. botulinum spores have been found in honeys originating in the United States, Canada, Australia, China (Taiwan), Japan, and Central America,30,33,37,43,45,58,69 but not in honeys from the United Kingdom.13 For these reasons and because honey is nutritionally nonessential, all major pediatric, public health, and honey industry agencies in the United States have joined in the recommendation that honey should not be fed to infants (see references in Arnon and colleagues' study6). hope that helps (but don't take from that a message that UK honey is safe for infants!) Gavin ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 10:54:46 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Gavin Ramsay Subject: Re: MOVING STORES (POLLEN & HONEY) FROM BOXES BELOW TO THOSE ABOVE! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit John > I have got the bees to move the brood up to the new shallow boxes with some difficulty > in what has been a generally difficult beekeeping season in Scotland. Since early June I've been trying to get one colony (which occupied the shallow box in some old equipment of a deceased beekeeper) to do the opposite! Perhaps we should have exchanged bees .... Gavin ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 07:25:57 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: the potential theoretical risk of infant botulism MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline This, from the US National Honey Board: o Infant botulism is a serious disease that may strike some infants under one year of age. After ingestion, C. botulinum spores can germinate and grow in the lower bowel of some very young infants. o Newborn babies have no intestinal microflora and thus apparently are susceptible to C. botulinum infection until their intestinal microflora develop (during the first few months after birth). o Healthy children and adults with normal intestinal microflora are resistant to intestinal botulism and are able to ingest botulinum spores without harm. o C. botulinum spores are widely distributed in nature. They can be found in soil, in dust, in the air, in raw agricultural products and in finished low acid food products which are not properly processed. o C. botulinum spores have been detected in corn syrup, honey, fresh and processed meats, fruits and vegetables. www.nhb.org * * * According to Health Canada, only 7 cases of infant botulism have been seen in Canada since 1979. In three of the seven cases the child had been given honey. In the USA there are about 70 to 90 cases of infant botulism yearly (not necessarily all due to honey). Why is honey a source of botulism? It is not very well understood because we know that most honey produced in North America is *not* contaminated with the botulism bacteria. Experts think that the honey gets contaminated by the spores from the dirt. How can infantile botulism be prevented? Although infant botulism is very rare, it is better to be safe and not take chances. For this reason, parents and caretakers should not give honey to babies less than one year of age. Also honey should never be added to baby food nor placed on a baby's pacifier. [we used to do this all the time !] On a final note, light or dark corn syrup is often used to help babies with constipation. The American Academy of Pediatrics warns that due to the potential theoretical risk of botulinum contamination babies should also not be given corn syrup that has not been pasteurized(sterilized) or declared "botulism spore free". www.drpaul.com/index.html ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 08:04:00 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?UTF-8?Q?Peter_L._Borst?=" Subject: Re: MOVING STORES (POLLEN & HONEY) FROM BOXES BELOW TO THOSE ABOVE! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit John Goodman wrote: > I have got the bees to move the brood up to the new shallow boxes with some difficulty Hi You don't say how many boxes you intend to use for the winter hive. In this area, where winters are quite cold, it is not uncommon for beekeepers to winter colonies in three deeps. Two would be more usual, of course. In your case, I would place one deep and two shallows on top with no excluder. The bees will gradually abandon the lower box, and if they need the honey and pollen from it, they will go down and get it. It is quite abnormal for a hive to have honey below the brood nest or between the entrance and the brood area so they should remove most of it over time (it is more secure above the brood and away from the entrance). pb ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 08:20:13 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Honey and other environmental risk factors for infant botu lism In-Reply-To: <46DCED78.5010908@gci.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tom Elliott wrote: > It is my understanding that normal healthy infants are not impacted by > oral intake of the spores. Less to do with the health of the infant than their age. Their digestive systems are not mature enough to handle botulism during their first year. Some mature earlier and some later in the year, so 1 year is probably well on the safe side for all. All of us ingest botulism spores at some time or another, but our systems can handle them unless overwhelmed. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 06:02:02 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: Hawaiian Honey First 'Carbon Neutral' Food MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Hawaiian Honey First 'Carbon Neutral' Food http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/2007/09/hawaiian-honey-first-carbon-neutral.html An Hawaiian honey company has launched what it describes as the nation's first certified carbon neutral food product… ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 14:17:48 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: MOVING STORES (POLLEN & HONEY) FROM BOXES BELOW TO THOSE A BOVE! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit This is not an easy operation. Moving the entrance from the bottom to the top, will not dramatically affect the nest configuration or position. I'd set up the queen with some brood in shallow frames (if they are available) under a queen excluder in 2-3 boxes at first. I'd place an empty shallow on top of the excluder followed by the deep boxes. They may start queen cells above the excluder and you will have to take them out until larvae are no longer available for this purpose. All of the brood in the deeps will have emerged in 21 days and you should see by then a full re-concentration of bees around the new nest in the shallows. They won't move the pollen but will first eat the pollen that's farthest from the new nest. [In fact, you may be surprised at the speed.] At the same time, they will store new pollen under and around the new broodnest. I hope you have a good pollen flow at this time of the year... As the broodnest in the shallows expands, the bees will gradually consolidate the honey on the sides and above the new nest. As the night temps drop, this process will accelerate. Uncapping the cells is said to further speed up the process. Good luck. I hope you have drawn shallow frames and enough time left before the cold. Waldemar ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 07:40:17 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mary Gibson Subject: pollen substitute recipe MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I am looking for a good pollen substitute recipe to feed my bees in North Alabama. Any help is appreciated. Thanks! --------------------------------- Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles. Visit the Yahoo! Auto Green Center. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 11:47:19 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: MRH Subject: Cement mixer to mix sugar syrup? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline The orchard owner where I have my bees has a small cement mixer--15-20 gallons. He will let me use it to mix sugar syrup to feed the bees. Anything I should be concerned about from the cement crud in it? Anything I should do besides rinse it out? Thanks. Marc Hoffman ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 13:01:47 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Timothy C. Eisele" Subject: Re: Cement mixer to mix sugar syrup? In-Reply-To: <7cd8e6030709040847y6e156cbai64d7a117be6e5d62@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MRH wrote: > The orchard owner where I have my bees has a small cement mixer--15-20 > gallons. He will let me use it to mix sugar syrup to feed the bees. > Anything I should be concerned about from the cement crud in it? Anything I > should do besides rinse it out? > I wouldn't think there'd be any problem from contamination, about the worst thing cement is likely to do is maybe add some calcium to the water, and possibly make the pH slightly more alkaline. That said, it seems to me that a cement mixer is really designed for liquids a lot thicker than sugar syrup. I would think that it is likely to splash a lot, and may spill quite a bit when you dump it. It could make quite a mess, I know that I spill a non-trivial amount of cement when I use my cement mixer, no matter how careful I am. Any particular reason for not just using 5-gallon pails and stirring with a stick? -- Tim Eisele tceisele@mtu.edu ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 15:00:56 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Excavations Reveal Frst Beehives in Ancient Near East Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Excavations Reveal Frst Beehives in Ancient Near East "...This is the earliest apiary to be revealed to date in an archaeological excavation anywhere in the Ancient Near East, said Prof. Mazar. It dates from the 10th to early 9th centuries B.C.E." http://www.rehov.org/bee.htm Best Wishes, Joe Waggle FeralBeeProject.com http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/HistoricalHoneybeeArticles/ ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 16:55:27 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: Excavations Reveal Frst Beehives in Ancient Near East MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It sounds convincing as far as the arcaeology goes, but once they start trying to identify 'Nmsh' with the Biblical Nimshi, a dreadful mass of assumptions creeps in through the window. Just because the name is to be found in the text, it doesn't mean it's the same individual. For all we know to the contrary, the name could have been as common as Smith or Jones today. Regards, Robert Brenchley, Birmingham UK ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 18:19:49 -0400 Reply-To: lloyd@rossrounds.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: mixing sugar syrup MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I have found that stirring sugar into hot water to make a 2:1 mixture is torture when done manually. When I have used a drill and a drywall mixer it is better, but I always get some plastic from the bottom of the pail. A friend uses an extractor. Puts in sugar and hot water and turns on high! He swears by it...but I haven't tried it. Lloyd -- Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 21:34:35 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: Excavations Reveal Frst Beehives in Ancient Near East Comments: To: Robert Brenchley Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >It sounds convincing as far as the arcaeology goes, but once they start >trying to identify 'Nmsh' with the Biblical Nimshi, a dreadful mass of >assumptions creeps in through the window. My intent was for the reader to glean the facts and do as they wish with the assumptions, perhaps even ignoring them. However, if the reader cares to be troubled an assumption, then that’s fine with me. But the interesting near east beekeeping facts comprising of the larger percentage of the document were what I had hoped would get most of the attention. And sole reason why I wanted to share it with the list. Best Wishes, Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/HistoricalHoneybeeArticles FeralBeeProject.com ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 09:01:54 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Excavations Reveal Frst Beehives in Ancient Near East In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All I hope some wings and body parts are found in good enough condition to perform a morphometric analysis. Old data is hard to come by and some of our AMM data is only 1,000 years old. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 08:08:06 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: Job-like nurturers of finicky, stinging insects MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline While CCD isn't likely to obliterate honeybees, it may wipe out enough migratory beekeepers to precipitate a pollination crisis. They're already thin on the ground -- a rare breed of truck drivers who also happen to be applied entomologists, amateur botanists, skilled nursemaids of cussed old machines, traveling salesmen, and Job-like nurturers of finicky, stinging insects that, when they're not mysteriously dying off, can suddenly swarm on you like something out of Hitchcock. full story at: Fortune Magazine http://tinyurl.com/27mm3m ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 13:04:07 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Cement mixer to mix sugar syrup? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>Any particular reason for not just using 5-gallon pails and stirring with a stick? Or an electril drill with a coumpound mixing attachment? Waldemar ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 12:08:12 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Paul Law Subject: Archaeologists discover ancient beehives - Yahoo! News MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Archaeologists digging in northern Israel have discovered evidence of a 3,000-year-old beekeeping industry, including remnants of ancient honeycombs, beeswax and what they believe are the oldest intact beehives ever found. http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070905/ap_on_sc/ancient_honey -- Dennis Law ( aka Paul D. Law ) Brooklyn South Community Emergency Response Team Logistics Section ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 13:08:44 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Gauthier Buddy Subject: 3,000-year-old beehives unearthed in Israel MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable http://www.cnn.com/2007/TECH/science/09/05/ancient.honey.ap/index.html=20 =20 Buddy Gauthier=20 Information Technology Analyst / Beekeeper Hobbyist Thibodaux, LA =20 =20 =20 ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 14:16:22 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: Excavations Reveal Frst Beehives in Ancient Near East Comments: To: Robert Brenchley Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Robert Writes: "Of course. The rest of the article is fine, but dodgy assumptions deserve to be questioned!" Hello Robert, I agree that assumptions deserve to be questioned. Thank You for sending the 'off list' letter, but I’d rather cc. the list if that’s ok. BUT in defense of what IS 'written in the actual content of the document’. I fail to see the existence of ANY assumptions that you say exist in the portion of the article that so troubles you. An ‘assumption’ is by definition: “Something taken for granted or accepted as true without proof; a supposition” ‘Possibilities’ is by definition: “Something that is possible.” (not stated as fact) An expression of a “possibility” (as stated several times in the document) is NOT an assumption, because they are NOT claiming (OR assuming) it to be a FACT, only that it is a “possibility". You may however question the claims of “possibilities” that are made in the document, as they do suggest a few. Best Wishes, Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/HistoricalHoneybeeArticles FeralBeeProject.com ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 16:51:05 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Excavations_Reveal_Frst_Beehives_in_Ancient_Near_Eas... Comments: To: naturebee@YAHOO.COM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 In a message dated 05/09/2007 19:16:32 GMT Standard Time, =20 naturebee@YAHOO.COM writes: An =E2=80=98assumption=E2=80=99 is by definition: =E2=80=9CSomething taken for granted or accepted as true without proof; a=20 supposition=E2=80=9D I hadn't realised my earlier response only went to you. Your definition of=20 an assumption is fine, and as I said, the great bulk of the article is fine= as=20 well. The bit I queried - maybe it stands out to me since it bears on my=20 particular area of interest - is this paragraph: =20 =20 <>=20 We seem to have jumped from a name to an assumption, as defined by yourself= ,=20 that the name belonged to a particular family, and from that to assumptions= =20 about the 'possible' (a word beloved by those who indulge in these=20 speculations) origins of the family of King Jehu. The name is known from Sa= maria,=20 having been found inscribed on a potsherd, but there's no demonstrated link= to=20 Jehu or his family. The most that can be said is that someone linked either= to=20 the jars or to the apiary shared a name with the father or grandfather of=20 Jehu.=20 Regards, Robert Brenchley, Birmingham UK =20 ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 10:14:25 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: mixing sugar syrup MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > When I have used a drill and a drywall mixer it is better, but I always > get some plastic from the bottom of the pail. Avoid by using a circular-end paint mixer from any paint store. Commercial drum mixers are in the Grainger catalog, but they are $400! I found (yard sale) a 2" s. steel propeller on a long s. steel shaft, motorized. Works great for mixing syrup in a 55-gal drum! 1:1 mixes with cold water. If anyone knows a source for this sort of propeller, let me know! (I want one with reverse pitch). Randy Oliver ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 19:38:04 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot McPherson Organization: McPherson Family Farms Subject: Re: Excavations Reveal Frst Beehives in Ancient Near East In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The article does quite clear state a possibility and is making no claims beyond that it is a possibility. I find it amazing what we choose to pick apart on this list. Scot McPherson McPherson Family Farms Davenport, IA ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 21:11:44 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: Excavations Reveal Frst Beehives in Ancient Near East MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 06/09/2007 01:46:10 GMT Standard Time, scot.mcpherson@GMAIL.COM writes: <> If anyone offered comparable speculations about bees in what purported to be a serious article, the list would tear them to pieces, and quite rightly so. The conjunction of science and speculation is always best avoided, don't you think? Regards, Robert Brenchley, Birmingham UK ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 17:20:17 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: joe carson Subject: Re: Cement mixer to mix sugar syrup? In-Reply-To: <20070905.060407.14902.1@webmail03.dca.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I use the drywall mud mixing rod/tool from Ace Hardware inserted into my 1/= 2" electric drill for small batches. It has a welded on protective ring on= the outside to prevent any scraping or gouging of plastic. Works well. I= still prefer the ringer washing machine method as I can add the ingredient= s, agitate, and pump it into my buckets and barrels that I transport to the= fields. I rinse with hot water, clean and it is covered until needed agai= n. The one made in Mexico does not hold up very well, so look for the orig= inal Maytag model made in America. =20 Dr. Carson Alaska Heavenly Honey > ****************************************************** > * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * > * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * > ****************************************************** _________________________________________________________________ Invite your mail contacts to join your friends list with Windows Live Space= s. It's easy! http://spaces.live.com/spacesapi.aspx?wx_action=3Dcreate&wx_url=3D/friends.= aspx&mkt=3Den-us= ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 21:28:35 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: Excavations_Reveal_Frst_Beehives_in_Ancient_Near_Eas... Comments: To: Robert Brenchley Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello Robert, Article: “It is possible that the discovery of three inscriptions bearing this name in the same region and dating to the same period indicates that Jehu ’s family originated from the Beth Shean Valley and possibly even from the large city located at Tel Rehov. The large apiary discovered at the site might have belonged to this illustrious local clan.” Robert Brenchley wrote: >We seem to have jumped from a name to an assumption, as defined by yourself, Again Bob, it is clearly written in the above snip from the article: “It is possible…” And “might have belonged…” I see no assumptions (assumed facts) being made as the words 'possible' and 'might' indicate they are not stated as facts! I too as Scot mentioned find it amazing what we choose to pick apart on this list. And if I may add, the propensity to distort of what is actually written in order to do it. But again, my attempt was to share a wonderful beekeeping article with the list members. Best Wishes, Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/HistoricalHoneybeeArticles FeralBeeProject.com ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 09:44:12 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Excavations Reveal Frst Beehives in Ancient Near East In-Reply-To: <000901c7f01e$30b06460$1000a8c0@mcpfarms.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Scot > I find it amazing what we choose to pick apart on this list. In a world of misinformation and dodgy (dogmatic) statements made by people with an axe to grind, we should take a little more notice of the word 'informed' in the raison d'etre of this list. If something that is stated is wrong or misunderstood it needs to be challenged, otherwise it will be accepted as 'truth' by those that know no better. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 06:57:02 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lanfeust Subject: Re: Excavations Reveal Frst Beehives in Ancient Near East In-Reply-To: <46DFBDDC.8040000@lineone.net> Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit A question (the question ?) comes to my mind : is it possible (a pososibility or an innocent assumption ?) that brood nest in that antic hive (before artificial selection and enlargement) was uniformly 4.9 mm ? Mmmmh.... ;-) Hervé Laval, Qc, Canada -- Hervé www.emelys.com -- http://www.fastmail.fm - Send your email first class ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 07:03:40 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lanfeust Subject: Re: mite count In-Reply-To: <44F3CC4878854265BFAF8098F1ADEAB7@stienburgPC> Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > I'm seeing a substantial mite fall on all my bottom boards. Hi Kent, In Qc, just harvested supers last week, a bit earlier than usual for me. Also counted heavier mite fall than last year (from 3/day to more than 25/day on week long sampling). Enough to generate a flash formic treatment too on those hives asap. All Russian queens, at leastr I hope since they tend to re-queening within the season whatever I do. Hervé Laval, Qc, Canada -- Hervé www.emelys.com -- http://www.fastmail.fm - Access your email from home and the web ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 04:29:39 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: Study: Bee-Collected Pollen a Good Source of Minerals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Study: Bee-Collected Pollen a Good Source of Minerals Concentration of Selected Elements in Honeybee-Collected Pollen Journal of Apicultural Science, Vol.51 No.1 2007 http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/2007/09/study-bee-collected-pollen-good-source.html Summary: The objective of the study was to investigate the macro- and micro-nutrient composition of the multifloral pollen harvested in different countries (Poland, South Korea and China)… ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 08:31:41 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: 3,000-year-old beehives unearthed in Israel MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline An ancient apiary! All in all, a very interesting discovery. > Cultic objects were also found in the apiary, including a four-horned altar adorned with figures of naked fertility goddesses, as well as an elaborately painted chalice. This could be evidence of deviant cultic practices by the ancient Israelites related to the production of honey and beeswax. This statement is loaded with assumptions. You can hardly call terms like "cultic" or "deviant" as value-neutral. And why is the production of honey and beeswax associated with "deviant cultic practices" anyway? To understand this at all, you have to go to the Bible: Isaiah 65 2 I have spread out my hands all the day to a rebellious people, which walk in a way that was not good, after their own thoughts; 3 A people that provoke me to anger continually to my face; that sacrifices in gardens, and burns incense upon altars of brick; 4 Which remain among the graves, and lodge in the monuments, which eat swine's flesh, and broth of abominable things is in their vessels; Commentary: * It appears that our archaeologists may have stumbled upon a garden where "Pagan Rituals" are being practiced, including a pig roast, the drinking of honey home brew, and Goddess worship. It sounds like they were having a better party. > if the ancients wished to engage in ritual activity, there could hardly be a more appropriate setting than a garden, especially when the ritual celebrated the union of male and female deities. Further, a garden was often understood as a deity's abode, so ritual activity located within a garden was done because "it is the place where one can experience the deity's numinous and beneficent power." -- from "An Examination of Isaiah 66:17" by Kevin Malarkey ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 09:41:46 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Steve_Noble?= Subject: Archaeologists discover ancient beehives - Yahoo! News Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit "The conjunction of science and speculation is always best avoided, don't you think?" The starting point of science is speculation. After all what is a hypotheses if not purposeful speculation? Steve Noble ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 10:09:36 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: 3,000-year-old beehives unearthed in Israel MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This really is getting O/T now, but never mind. We've got plenty of evidence from the Old Testament of widespread 'cultic activity' in ancient Israel; the prophets would hardly have gone banging on about it so much if it wasn't happening! Jeremiah 44:15-19 gives a glimpse of the other side of the argument. 'We used to have plenty of food, and prospered, and saw no misfortune. But from the time we stopped making offerings to the Queen of Heaven and pouring out libations to her, we have lacked everything, and have perished by the sword and by famine.' Evidently, there were two views at the time; those who believed that the worship of many deities was vital, and those who were implacably opposed to it. History tells us which side prevailed. Since the books of the Bible we written long after the time of David and Solomon, we don't really know what views were at that period. What we can say is that cult objects turn up regularly. When it comes to honey, there's no reason to suppose that it was ever considered 'deviant'. 2 Chronicles 31:5 includes it in a list of agricultural produce; John the Baptist, portrayed as a strict Jew, is said to have eaten it. The Damascus Covenant, which is so strict that it forbids using 'a ladder or rope or other utensil' to pull a man out of water or fire on the Sabbath, bans the eating of bee larvae, implying that contact with bees was routine. Philo of Alexandria, writing about the Essenes, who were known for their strictness, says that some were 'keepers of the swarms of bees'. Bees themselves might be non-kosher, ince they're forbidden 'crawling things', but honey has never, as far as we know, been considered doubtful. Regards, Robert Brenchley, Birmingham UK ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 10:21:04 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: 3,000-year-old beehives unearthed in Israel Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Peter L. Borst wrote: >> “Cultic objects were also found in the apiary, including a four-horned altar adorned with figures of naked fertility goddesses, as well as an elaborately painted chalice. This could be evidence of deviant cultic practices by the ancient Israelites related to the production of honey and beeswax.” >This statement is loaded with assumptions. You can hardly call terms >like "cultic" or "deviant" as value-neutral. Hello Peter, I don’t see any ‘assumptions’ here. You have facts: "Cultic objects", "four-horned altar adorned with figures of naked fertility goddesses" and a "painted chalice found in the apiary". But they are not << assuming >> that there actually were deviant cultic practices... They only state that << “This could be evidence..." >> This is a clearly a hypothesis and NOT an assumption. I much enjoyed your 'hypothesis' also, and is very plausable. ;) Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/HistoricalHoneybeeArticles FeralBeeProject.com ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 10:32:34 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: Archaeologists discover ancient beehives - Yahoo! News MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 06/09/2007 15:16:03 GMT Standard Time, paramita@WHIDBEY.COM writes: <<"The conjunction of science and speculation is always best avoided, don't you think?" The starting point of science is speculation. After all what is a hypotheses if not purposeful speculation? Steve Noble >> Of course, but the scientist doesn't go public until he or she has sufficient evidence to give them a chance of convincing a sceptical audience. Without scepticism, and careful evidence gathering, we'd still be stuck with king bees and all sorts of nonsense. A vague 'it is possible' won't get anything past peer review. I seem to remember a good few appeals for peer-reviewed evidence on this list in connection with small cell. Why should the bar come falling down here? Regards, Robert Brenchley, Birmingham UK ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 11:26:01 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?UTF-8?Q?Peter_L._Borst?=" Subject: Re: 3,000-year-old beehives unearthed in Israel Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Robert Brenchley wrote: > When it comes to honey, there's no reason to suppose that it was ever considered 'deviant'. I didn't think so either -- until I read "deviant cultic practices by the ancient Israelites related to the production of honey and beeswax" as quoted from the article. My *guess* was beer or wine made from honey was what they objected to. But I am no Biblical scholar ... pb ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 11:44:10 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: 3,000-year-old beehives unearthed in Israel MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My ABD says nothing about wine, unfortunately, so short of wading through the 220-odd references to the stuff in the Bible, I'll just say that I don't remember any negative connotations attached to it, and certainly none regarding honey wine. Drunkenness, which gets 60 references, has an extremely bad press, but the demon drink itself appears to be OK. Regards, Robert Brenchley, Birmingham UK ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 16:50:15 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: 3,000-year-old beehives... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit What I would like to know about this discovery is: - why was this apiary and its valuable objects abondoned? was there a natural disaster or a war that caused the disruption? - is there bee DNA material that could used to determine if those Near East bees are related to any present day bee races? Waldemar ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 19:25:25 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: A virus possibly contributes to CCD. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070906/sc_nm/bees_virus_dc I have not heard of this virus before. Waldemar ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 15:50:48 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Paul Law Subject: Newsvine - Virus May Be Cause of US Honeybee Deaths MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline http://www.newsvine.com/_news/2007/09/06/945818-virus-may-be-cause-of-us-honeybee-deaths -- Dennis Law ( aka Paul D. Law ) Brooklyn South Community Emergency Response Team Logistics Section ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 16:08:51 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: 3,000-year-old beehives... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If the apiary dates from the 10th to early 9th Centuries, as the article suggests, then that's too vague to be certain about exactly why the apiary would have been abandoned. However, it's known to have been an unsettled period, The Egyptian New Kingdom, which had ruled the area, collapsed in the 11th Century BC, after a wave of invasions by the 'Sea Peoples'. We're talking about the period of the Philistines, a 'sea people' who continued until the 7th Century BC. So, war has to be the most obvious guess, but it is a guess. We need more information; was the city abandoned, or was it just this apiary? Is there any evidence of widespread destruction, which might indicate that the city was taken and sacked? And so on. Regards, Robert Brenchley, Birmingham UK ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 17:07:37 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: Israeli Acute Paralysis Virus MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline According to a new report in the journal Science, the Israeli Acute Paralysis Virus (IAPV) may be a potential cause of the epidemic that has afflicted between 50 and 90 per cent of commercial bee colonies in the U.S. The earliest reports of colony collapse disorder date to 2004, the same year the virus was first described by Israeli virologist Ilan Sela. That also was the year U.S. beekeepers began importing bees from Australia - a practice that had been banned by the Honeybee Act of 1922. Now, Australia is being eyed as a potential source of the virus. That could turn out to be an ironic twist because the Australian imports were meant to bolster U.S. bee populations devastated by another scourge, the varroa mite. Officials are discussing reinstating the ban, said the Agriculture Department's top bee scientist, Jeff Pettis. In the new study, a team of nearly two dozen scientists used the genetic sequencing equivalent of a dragnet to round up suspects. The technique, called pyrosequencing, generates a list of the full repertoire of genes in bees they examined from U.S. hives and directly imported from Australia. Sela, a professor at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, said he will collaborate with U.S. scientists on studying how and why the bee virus may be fatal. Preliminary research shows some bees can integrate genetic information from the virus into their own genomes, apparently giving them resistance, Sela said in a telephone interview. Sela added that about 30 percent of the bees he has examined had done so. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 17:44:59 -0400 Reply-To: ik Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: ik Subject: Re: mite count In-Reply-To: <1189076620.1031.1209197843@webmail.messagingengine.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Herve, That's just about what I'm seeing here. I haven't had as much problem with the Russians superceding. Still marked. I have also pulled supers off early. Kent > In Qc, just harvested supers last week, a bit earlier than usual for me. > Also counted heavier mite fall than last year (from 3/day to more than > 25/day on week long sampling). Enough to generate a flash formic > treatment too on those hives asap. All Russian queens, at leastr I hope > since they tend to re-queening within the season whatever I do. > > Hervé > Laval, Qc, Canada ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 20:51:23 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: FW: CCD -highly anticipated report MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This message was originally submitted by amesfarm@HOTMAIL.COM to the = BEE-L list at LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU. ________________________________ From: Brian Fredericksen [mailto:amesfarm@HOTMAIL.COM] Sent: Thu 2007.09.06 17:56 To: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu Subject: CCD -highly anticipated report http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/06/science/06cnd-bees.html ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 13:57:53 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Steve_Noble?= Subject: Re: Archaeologists discover ancient beehives - Yahoo! News Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit "Why should the bar come falling down here?" The easy answer to that question might be: Because they're archeologists. But a lot of people might not understand what I mean by that. Archeology is much more about speculation than other scientific fields. There is so much that can never be known for certain and yet, at the end of the day, you want to be able to say something about what you've discovered. What could it mean? Archeologists bat these theories around in order to see if they can make any sense of what they've discovered, and yes, sometimes it gets pretty far out there. Speculation does get out of hand from time to time and runs afoul of science when what is speculated gets taken for what is known. Although the author in this case may be a little too proud of his theory maybe even wanting us to be convinced that it is a better fit than his evidence can support, I was not led to believe he was expressing it as fact. Another pitfall of this kind of scientific endeavor is when the pursuit of data becomes too heavily directed toward support of a pet theory which can lead to ignoring evidence in support of other valid possibilities. Steve Noble ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 19:11:11 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Israeli Acute Paralysis Virus MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > the Israeli Acute Paralysis Virus (IAPV) may be a potential cause of the epidemic May be? eipidemic? ( record almond pollination 2007 and no shortage of hives) > that has afflicted between 50 and 90 per cent of commercial bee colonies in the U.S. 50-90% ? What percent fit the CCD description? >The earliest reports of colony collapse disorder date to 2004, the same year the virus was first described by Israeli virologist Ilan Sela. Not so! We saw the symptoms as early as 2002 in Florida. For business reasons the problem was kept quiet. >That also was the year U.S. beekeepers began importing bees from Australia - a practice that had been banned by the Honeybee Act of 1922. Surely we would have seen the problem in Canada as those bees had been imported for decades. >Now, Australia is being eyed as a potential source of the virus. I spoke with Australia tonight and little proof exists and only hypothesis. Also a very weak hypothesis to say the least but researchers are grasping at straws and perhaps even chasing a ghost problem as my commercial beekeepers have got the best bees this year they have had in years! No CCD in my bees! > Officials are discussing reinstating the ban, said the Agriculture Department's top bee scientist, Jeff Pettis. If the hypothesis is proven to be the cause of CCD then the import should be stopped! *If not* U.S. beekeepers (and the powerful almond industry) needs those Australian package bees. >In the new study, a team of nearly two dozen scientists used the genetic sequencing equivalent of a dragnet to round up suspects. I think the U.S. beekeeping industry needs to see more than a weak hypothesis before giving up a valuable beekeeping tool. Commercial beekeepers I have spoken with are willing to drop the import *if* proof exists Israeli Acute paralysis virus *is* the cause of CCD but all of us are familiar with bee paralysis virus symptoms and none were reported in CCD survey's. >Sela, a professor at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, said he will collaborate with U.S. scientists on studying how and why the bee virus may be fatal. Should not we study first and then decide? bob ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 23:42:06 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: FW: CCD -highly anticipated report Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit this is an even better article - more in depth then the NYT http://www.latimes.com/news/science/la-sci-bees7sep07,0,365614.story?coll=la-home-center ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 00:58:31 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: Israeli Acute Paralysis Virus Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit from LAT article "Australian bees do not suffer from CCD, leading researchers to speculate that the virus acts synergistically with chemicals in the environment or with another infectious agent, such as the varroa mite, which is not common in Australia. Experiments are underway to determine which combination of virus and chemical or infectious agent, if any, causes the disease, and researchers hope to have an answer this year. Researchers are also examining archived bee specimens to determine whether the virus was present before 2004. "Our results indicate that [the virus] is a significant marker for CCD," said Dr. W. Ian Lipkin of Columbia University's Mailman School of Public Health, a coauthor of the report published online today by the journal Science. "The next step is to ascertain whether [the virus], alone or in concert with other factors, can induce CCD in healthy bees." " and "All of the bees, both healthy and sick, had a set of eight distinctive bacteria "that have not been found in any other environment or host," said coauthor Nancy A. Moran of the University of Arizona. "They are all unnamed species about which we know very little. They probably perform essential functions in bees, providing essential nutrients or contributing defenses against pathogens." Similarly, there was "a remarkably high viral burden in bee populations, both those with CCD and those without it," said coauthor Edward C. Holmes of Penn State University. "There were seven different viruses, but only one was consistently found with CCD." Israeli acute paralysis virus was found in all the CCD specimens, but in neither of the healthy specimens. It was also present in some bees imported from Australia and in two of four samples of royal jelly imported from China. The imported jelly is normally used as a cosmetic, but some beekeepers feed it to larvae to produce queens.All of the infected colonies, moreover, had bees from Australia or were housed close to bees from that country. U.S. officials are considering reinstating the ban on bees from Australia, Pettis said, but it may be too late to limit the damage already done. Israeli acute paralysis virus was discovered in 2002 in dead bees from Israeli colonies by virologist Ilan Sela of the University of Jerusalem. In experiments reported this summer, Sela found that injecting the virus into bees killed 98% of recipients within days. The symptoms in the Israeli bees -- shivering wings, paralysis and death -- are different from those exhibited by American bees. But Holmes speculated that the virus might have undergone slight genetic changes that had altered its pathogenicity. "We know from other viruses that very small genetic changes can turn a benign virus into a very virulent one," he said. Or it may be that the symptoms are different in bees whose immune systems are stressed by the varroa mite or by being trucked from farm to farm during the growing season." Bob this does not sound like a *weak* hypothesis. As usual science does not offer a black and white answer but rather a strong signal of where to go next to build the case. Geez why should we be surprised that the varroa mite could play a role in transmitting this virus and explain why no IAPV in Australia. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 00:41:13 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Subject: Re: Israeli Acute Paralysis Virus In-Reply-To: <001901c7f0e3$9beea820$23bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Relating to the articles that indicate a viral body being a possible agent leading to CCD. Before tempers rise and fingers wag towards implied source areas, may I suggest that We, as a community (all involved in apiculture) use this time to create a co-ordinated and joined venture. One that ensures Apis m. and its role in present day economics it is understood and acted upon. IMHO, We cannot afford to start disintergrating into blame politics over this topic. "Au contraire" - it is time to ensure that Honey bees are no longer ignored by the powers in place. Regards, Peter ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 11:17:44 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Israeli Acute Paralysis Virus Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>...Australia is being eyed as a potential source of the virus. Is the thinking that Australian bees are not affected by the virus because varroa mites are not in Australia yet? Waldemar ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 07:33:29 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: Israeli Acute Paralysis Virus In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Bob wrote: >What percent fit the CCD description? * IAPV was, with a single exception, confined to CCD samples, yielding a positive predictive value of 96.1% and a specificity of 95.2% * They found Nosema spp. in both CCD and non-CCD operations. The overall prevalence of any Nosema species was 94.1% (100%, CCD; 85.7%, non-CCD). * Neither KBV nor Nosema ceranae contributed significantly to the risk for CCD nor did they alter the influence of IAPV on CCD. * They have not proven a causal relationship between any infectious agent and CCD; nonetheless, the prevalence of IAPV sequences in CCD operations, as well as the temporal and geographic overlap of CCD and importation of IAPV infected bees, indicate that IAPV is a significant marker for CCD. from: "A Metagenomic Survey of Microbes in Honey Bee Colony Collapse Disorder" Diana L. Cox-Foster, et al. www.sciencexpress.org 6 September 2007 ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 18:51:22 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: queenbee Subject: Re: Israeli Acute Paralysis Virus MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Some thoughts to ponder on IAPV. It was first described in 2004. How long has it been in existence in honey bees? Remember Kashmir bee virus and how it was denied to be in bees in certain areas then suddenly it was found. If it is the cause of CCD, why are not the bees in Australia coming down with CCD? Why haven't bees in Canada come down with it way back in 1987 onwards when bees from Australia started to enter Canada? And why have bees in dozens of other countries not come down with CCD when they have received queens and bees from Australia? Why did the packages of bees from Australia put on irradiated gear from CCD colonies not come down with CCD again? How did IAPV arrive in Australia? Could it be that it has been in the USA for a long time and actually Australia got it from queens imported from the USA prior to the quarantine station coming into existence in 1983? I wonder what the main topic of discussion will be at Apimondia 2007 which starts in Sunday? I bet the seminar on Thursday will be well attended. Trevor Weatherhead Australia ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 08:11:24 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?UTF-8?Q?Peter_L._Borst?=" Subject: Re: Israeli Acute Paralysis Virus Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit waldig wrote: >Is the thinking that Australian bees are not affected by the virus because varroa mites are not in Australia yet? Yes. From the report: The varroa mite, for example, absent in Australia, immunosuppresses bees, making them more susceptible to infection by other organisms, including viruses. Other stressors may include chemical pesticides used on plants pollinated by bees and in hives to control pests. Crop pesticide use is similar in both the United States and Australia. Miticides are widely used in the United States but not in Australia, and can have adverse effects on colony health; however, miticide use did not differ between CCD and non-CCD operations as determined by detailed case histories. from "A Metagenomic Survey of Microbes in Honey Bee Colony Collapse Disorder" Diana L. Cox-Foster, et al www.sciencexpress.org 6 September 2007 ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 08:15:06 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Israeli Acute Paralysis Virus In-Reply-To: <001901c7f0e3$9beea820$23bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Harrison wrote: > Should not we study first and then decide? > > Amen. If you read the various articles on it in the scientific studies releases, there are more questions than answers. One is that it does appear in non-CCD colonies with no problems. Its symptoms do not match CCD. KBV is also present in 3/4 of the colonies. It appears that Varroa may be involved, but that does not match prior statements. All that is really said is that it is present in all those CCD colonies that the Penn people tested as CCD. But the real CCD problem occurred first in the mid-west, not the east. And, as I have previously stated, some of the eastern colonies had major Varroa problems. Many virus were found in bees long before Varroa and Tracheal. It was not until the mites arrived that virus became a major problem with bees. I know that some are tired of my mantra, but the real problem is mites. BTW, since the problem is now solved (stop imports and destroy all Australian colonies, right?), do we still need funding to find the cause of CCD? Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 05:17:35 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Israeli Acute Paralysis Virus In-Reply-To: <001901c7f0e3$9beea820$23bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bob Harrison wrote: >> the Israeli Acute Paralysis Virus (IAPV) may be a potential cause of the epidemic May be? Commercial beekeepers I have spoken with are willing to drop the import *if* proof exists Israeli Acute paralysis virus *is* the cause of CCD but all of us are familiar with bee paralysis virus symptoms and none were reported in CCD survey's. Even if IAPV is shown to be the cause of CCD, before banning the import of Aussie bees there should be shown a link between the two. Have Aussie bees been tested to determine whether or not they harbor the virus? Don't think so. They should be tested for the virus before leaving Australia and after arriving here. Blaming the Aussie bees because of supposed "timing" is shooting blindfolded. TEST. Then, if it is proven that the Aussie bees harbor the virus, take care of matters from that point. Sounds to me like there are people out there who want to shoot themselves in the foot. Mike in LA --------------------------------- Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story. Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 05:36:10 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Israeli Acute Paralysis Virus in 2002 In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Israeli acute paralysis virus was discovered in 2002 in dead bees from Israeli colonies by virologist Ilan Sela of the University of Jerusalem. In experiments reported this summer (2007?), Sela found that injecting the virus into bees killed 98% of recipients within days. QUERY: Had the Israelies imported bees from Austrailia at the time of, or prior to, the kill-offs which led to the discovery of IAPV? From where does the virus seem to originate? Mike in LA --------------------------------- Luggage? GPS? Comic books? Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 06:20:40 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Israeli Acute Paralysis Virus & importation In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit "* They have not proven a causal relationship between any infectious agent and CCD; nonetheless, the prevalence of IAPV sequences in CCD operations, as well as the temporal and geographic overlap of CCD and importation of IAPV infected bees (Is this a statement of fact backed up by documentation, or is it a supposition?), indicate that IAPV is a significant marker for CCD. from: "A Metagenomic Survey of Microbes in Honey Bee Colony Collapse Disorder" Diana L. Cox-Foster, et al. www.sciencexpress.org 6 September 2007 Mike from LA --------------------------------- Building a website is a piece of cake. Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 09:36:43 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Eric_Brown?= Subject: Re: Israeli Acute Paralysis Virus Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Fri, 7 Sep 2007 07:33:29 -0400, Peter L. Borst wrote: >*the temporal and geographic overlap of CCD and >importation of IAPV infected bees > >from: >"A Metagenomic Survey of Microbes in Honey Bee Colony Collapse Disorder" The temporal overlap of CCD and Australian packages seems obvious, but what evidence is there of geographic overlap? What basis did the author of the report have for saying "geographic overlap"? Can anyone fill me in? It seems quite plausible, but I know nothing about any basis for saying geographic overlap. Eric ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 10:43:58 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Russ Dean Subject: Bees ditch Hive for House MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Video from ABC News _http://abcnews.go.com/Video/playerIndex?id=3569288_ (http://abcnews.go.com/Video/playerIndex?id=3569288) Russ Dean _WV Beekeepers Home Page_ (http://www.wvbeekeepers.org/) ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 08:00:30 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Israeli Acute Paralysis Virus In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Fri, 7 Sep 2007 07:33:29 -0400, Peter L. Borst wrote: >*the temporal and geographic overlap of CCD and importation of IAPV infected bees from: ............ >"A Metagenomic Survey of Microbes in Honey Bee Colony Collapse Disorder" Excuse my ignorance but what is meant, in this case, by the term "geographic overlap"? Mike in LA --------------------------------- Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 11:17:08 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Steve_Noble?= Subject: Re: Israeli Acute Paralysis Virus Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Now that the IAPV is here, banning imports of queens from the supposed source would seem to be of little use because now we (USA) are the source. Put it this way: banning shipments of bees from Australia makes about as much sense now as banning shipments of semi truck loads of bees from Illinois to California, at least as far as CCD is concerned. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 11:32:58 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Israeli Acute Paralysis Virus in 2002 In-Reply-To: <735059.75453.qm@web53404.mail.re2.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mike Stoops wrote: > > QUERY: Had the Israelies imported bees from Austrailia at the time of, or prior to, the kill-offs which led to the discovery of IAPV? From where does the virus seem to originate? An additional question. With all the more refined tests for virus, did it exist before it was found in Israel? The only reason it is called IAPV is because of where it was first discovered. It could have been around for years, even in the US. It might even be world-wide and a "normal" bee virus since disappearing disease has existed before CCD with all the same symptoms as CCD. We tend to treat things that are "discovered" as if they did not exist before they were discovered. Plus, knowing the way virus operate, it could even be an old virus. like KBV, that has changed. Think flu. Injecting bees with KBV would get similar kills as IAPV, BTW. The larger problem is IAPV does not cause CCD or disappearing disease symptoms! It is just that it is present.There is a lot of stretching going on to pin the tail on the donkey. Operates with something else like mites (but we know what happens with mites) or pesticide (but we know pesticide symptoms) or it has mutated in the US so symptoms are different.. There is, of course, a major problem with the fact that 96 or whatever percent of infected bees have IAPV present so it may be causitive. All bees infected with CCD also have wings, ergo wings may be causative of CCD. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 08:34:12 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: a e Subject: changing colour of wax In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Aaron, When you are rendering scraps of dark beeswax is it possible to bleach it so as to make the colour lighter ? Sincerely, Abbas ____________________________________________________________________________________ Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games. http://get.games.yahoo.com/proddesc?gamekey=monopolyherenow ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 08:41:46 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: Israeli Acute Paralysis Virus MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill wrote: > I know that some are tired of my mantra, but the real problem is mites. I asked Dr Ilan Sela about this last week. He said that they have found IAPV in almost every varroa mite tested (I assume that he meant in Israel, but could be wrong). There are other issues with the mite: First, feeding by the mite blocks bee immune function, much as a tick bite suppresses immune function in mammals. Second, feeding by the mite depletes a bee's vitellogenin reserves, and further suppresses immune function. Third, the feeding wound allows bacteria and fungi to enter the bee's haemolymph, and such infection has been demonstrated to intiate viral reproduction. Fourth, mites can vector some viruses. Mite levels were not indicated in the causal regression for CCD, but are certainly suspect as a player. Note the explanatory regression for CCD prediction: IAPV (96%), KBV (65%), N apis (73%), N ceranae (63%) Total 88.2% explanatory power! Note that *all* samples positive for IAPV contained KBV--could there be a synergy? Note that N apis, which is becoming uncommon, had slightly higher score than N ceranae! Surprise! That said, the Army/Bromshenk data do not support the universality of IAPV in CCD colonies. Although the Cox-Foster paper is tantalizing, it is far too early to draw conclusions! The point has been made for some time that fewer Canadian beekeepers are experiencing CCD, despite having both Aussie imports and varroa. We need to clarify this observation. I will be reporting more. > BTW, since the problem is now solved (stop imports and destroy all > Australian colonies, right?), do we still need funding to find the cause > of CCD? This is a huge point, Bill! The release of this paper has not gone over well in Congress! Nor in Australia. Nor with almond growers. Randy Oliver ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 09:55:54 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: changing colour of wax In-Reply-To: <186527.95107.qm@web50506.mail.re2.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Abbas: When rendering old dark beeswax, one DOES NOT have to bleach it to get the color lighter, you just waterbath it for doing. Dee A. Lusby ____________________________________________________________________________________ Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. http://travel.yahoo.com/ ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 14:04:39 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Eric_Brown?= Subject: Re: Israeli Acute Paralysis Virus Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >Excuse my ignorance but what is meant, in this case, by the term "geographic overlap"? I assume it means areas into which Australian bees were imported are the same areas in which IAPV is being found. Whether it's true or not, is that a fair definition of "geographic overlap," everyone? ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 11:05:50 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: changing colour of wax In-Reply-To: <186527.95107.qm@web50506.mail.re2.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit a e wrote:is it possible to bleach it so as to make the colour lighter ? Sincerely, Abbas Abbas, In addition to the suggestion made by Dee, you can also bleach it by putting it in a thin layer in a pan out into the sun and let the sun bleach it. I have had some wax bleach to an almost white color doing that. Sadly, you also loose some/most of the beeswax odor when you do that too. Mike in LA --------------------------------- Got a little couch potato? Check out fun summer activities for kids. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 14:39:52 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: George Imirie MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I just received the sad news of George Imirie's passing. "George Imirie passed away last night evening under hospice care. A viewing will be held on Tuesday September 11th, from 3-5PM and 7-9PM at Pumphrey Funeral Home in Rockville, MD. The burial will be on Wednesday Sept 12, at 11 AM at Rockville Cemetery in Rockville, MD. Pumphrey has a website with an electronic guest book where people can leave messages at http://obit.pumphreyfuneralhome.com/listcurrent " George was well known in beekeeping circles. His Pink Pages helped many bee havers become bee keepers! Aaron Morris - thinking George will be missed. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 15:11:12 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Rossy Castillo Subject: AND NOW? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The discovery of the Israeli acute Paralyisis Virus is very important in = the sense when beekeepers think where are they going to buy theirs bees. = I want to tell tou with time enogh that my country could provide = packages bees for your next season . There will have the permission to = get our bees there. We didn't have CCD, we have no aethinia, we can do = it. Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Rossy Castillo Subject: I forgot something MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable we have no african bees Rossy ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 15:51:42 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Yoon_Sik_Kim?= Subject: Re: George Imirie Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit PASSING OF A MASTER When I was six or seven years old, I hardly remember now, I used to bicycle through the winding dirt road deep in the country to his house, a blood-rusted tin roof with leaky rickety front. A widower, he was then a seventy-year old man. No kids of his own and hence, not a single grand-child. Yet everyone in town knew the beekeeper, a grandfather to all them kids. A snot-green kid, I would take Mama’s cornbread or pumpkin pie to him on Thanksgivings and Christmas, or in summer I’d take steamed okra picked from our little Victory garden. For months, I anxiously awaited these trips, for the clouds of bees captured me with fear and curiosity, let alone his fist-size ice-cold blackberries he kept inside his cool earthen cellar. He would gently hand me a queen cell, and in late autumn I’d take fat drones to school for show-and-tell. An instant celebrity, I’d loudmouth my expertise on berries and bees. A gaunt man, he would pull frames with bare hands and no veil. In fact, I don’t remember seeing him use a smoker. Instead, rarely, he’d spray water “to calm his Italian gals down.” He would tell me the secret of sting medicine: grab some dirt, roll it in your spit, and rub it where it hurts, a miracle cure that worked faster than any snake oil I ever known since. A quiet man, he also taught me other secrets of beekeeping: give them girls enough room for brood and store, and never interfere with their romp and roam. Tie up your hands! “You are not a beekeeper,” he’d insist, “You are a bee-maid, a monk dedicated to assist them to be what God made them to be, for they’ve been taking care of themselves for eons.” Now a beekeeper, I went back to his old shack—-long gone. Hidden in the weeds, I saw his sunken shed, a collapsed lung. Yet in the prairie winds, I could hear clouds of his bees, roar. ****When I exchanged a few emails with George a while back, I promised the bloke to post the above on his passing. The best part of George was his hell-bent irascibility we all hate to love. It was Liciano yesterday, and today it is you, George. What a loss. . . . Yoon ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 15:05:13 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Nick S Behrens Subject: Re: AND NOW? In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Not to pick on you or anyone else that provides bees from other countries, but isn't this how we got into this mess to begin with? Even though your bees are fine/ don't show signs of anything, who says they are not carrying something in the background? Nick Nick Behrens Entomology Graduate Student Iowa State University ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 17:13:40 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: George Imirie MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 07/09/2007 19:42:42 GMT Standard Time, AMorris@UAMAIL.ALBANY.EDU writes: <> They did indeed. I came to disagree with some of his ideas, but never mind, I read them carefully for my first couple of years' beekeeping, corresponded with him occasionally, and was greatly helped. He's going to be missed. Regards, Robert Brenchley, Birmingham UK ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2007 07:18:48 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: queenbee Subject: IAPV consequences MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Will States in the USA that do not have CCD now ban the importation of = bees from those States that do have it? Will Hawaii now ban the importation of drone semen so as not to get = IAPV? Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 14:45:24 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Israeli Acute Paralysis Virus paper In-Reply-To: <064501c7f165$99a951f0$6bab5142@MyPC> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit randy oliver wrote:This is a huge point, Bill! The release of this paper has not gone over well in Congress! Nor in Australia. Nor with almond growers. Randy Oliver Is this paper supposed to be a conclusive statement? Or is it a proposition of possibilities and/or probabilities? Don't think it was published to make anyone happy or to reconcile positions. This is a treatise concerning a possible cause or contributing factor in the CCD situation. IMHO it is one of the first steps towards working towards an answer to the cause(s) of CCD, not an conclusive statement as to the cause. Mike in LA --------------------------------- Choose the right car based on your needs. Check out Yahoo! Autos new Car Finder tool. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 19:19:33 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: 'Dr Eva Crane' Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit http://www.ibra.org.uk/ It is with much sadness that we report that Dr Eva Crane, founder of IBRA and inspirational bee scientist, passed away peacefully on the afternoon of Thursday 6th September 2007 at the age of 94. She had become increasingly frail over the past few months and was admitted to Wexham Park Hospital in Berkshire on Monday. An obituary will appear in Journal of Apicultural Research. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 20:43:20 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Israeli Acute Paralysis Virus paper In-Reply-To: <372690.53929.qm@web53409.mail.re2.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mike Stoops wrote: > Is this paper supposed to be a conclusive statement? Mike- we both agree that it is not, but the genie is out of the bottle. Look at the press, not the science, and it looks like the problem is solved. Also recall all the comments on this list that showed the CCD hype to be totally overblown such as 80% of all eastern US bees lost, which was reported over and over as fact. Even current press reports number the losses in the billions. Also recall Jim's comments about the findings and the attempts by some to get their version out first. There are primadonnas in science and attention brings bucks. Just follow the news reports from here on in and you will see it move from possible to probable and from there.... It is not far fetched that some strutting pols will call for banning the bee. Worked for the bomb. I have not liked the way this whole problem was handled. Too many personalities and too much hype and all after the money. Almost make you a bit cynical. Fortunately we here in Maine have banned CCD, so there have been no incidences of it in our state. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine (a CCD free zone) ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 20:47:57 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Israeli Acute Paralysis Virus MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > *if* proof exists Israeli Acute paralysis virus *is* the cause of CCD but all of us are familiar with bee paralysis virus symptoms and none were reported in CCD survey's. I am very familiar with Acute paralysis virus and have been a part of sending samples to the U.K. for virus ID. Also have had many direct talks with Norman Carrick on the subject (U.K.) Also with Dr. Shiminuki and the subject. Interestingly today the Sept. Bee Culture came with an interview with "Shim". Brought back memories of our discussions on beekeeping problems. On page 22 "Shim" is asked about CCD and more importantly about paralysis virus. Yes years ago the USDA-ARS did quite a bit of research on Paralysis virus. Here is his comments: " When we were studying paralysis virus we found that bees will leave the colony , they simply walk away out the front door BECAUSE THEY CAN'T FLY" Now if Paralysis virus were the number one cause of CCD would not we find a few of these bees outside the entrance? I have seen Paralysis virus first hand in several states under all kinds of conditions and YOU ALWAYS find bees crawling around the hive. No exceptions. bob -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ******************************************************