From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 11:14:47 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-86.9 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,AWL, MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,NORMAL_HTTP_TO_IP,SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3EDD490AD for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 11:03:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SG3YXL017258 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 11:03:41 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 11:03:35 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0801D" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 194274 Lines: 4118 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 20:29:20 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: New Zealand Varroa mite battle/ proactive detection In-Reply-To: <20080120.190456.8834.0@webmail09.dca.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit "waldig@netzero.com" wrote:I should rephrase somewhat: are there Russian queen producers out there who will *guarantee* that I will find bitten mites on sticky boards after installing their queens? Waldemar . Talk to Charlie Harper. Mike in LA --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 04:18:08 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: Biological Activity of Propolis Related to Propolin Level MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Biological Activity of Propolis Related to Propolin Level Characterisation of Taiwanese Propolis Collected from Different Locations and Seasons Journal of the Science of Food and Agriculture, Volume 88, Issue 3 , Pages 412 - 419 http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/2008/01/biological-activity-of-propolis-related.html Background: Characterisation of propolis is difficult because of the fact that its chemical composition can vary with its source of origin. The aim of this study was to establish distinctive criteria relating to quantifiable quality features of Taiwanese propolis (TP)... ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 06:34:15 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: ccd MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 22/01/2008 03:40:18 GMT Standard Time, waldig@NETZERO.NET writes: You might want to put your ear up to the hive wall were you think the cluster might be. You should hear the bees 'rustling' inside. If you don't, put your ear to the opposite side. If it's as cold as all that, beware of leaving part of your ear stuck to the hive! Try a stethoscope. However, when doing recent inspections at only a few degrees above freezing and applying oxalic I have found it perfectly feasible GENTLY to open a hive and see the bees in their seams, feel heat rising and, in the case of the top bar hive where the bars abut, to do a complete inspection and dribble oxalic directly onto the bees. Time will tell whether I did more good than harm, but I don't think smoking is fair to the bees at this time. Chris ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 08:17:30 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Timothy C. Eisele" Subject: Re: ccd In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chris Slade wrote: > > If it's as cold as all that, beware of leaving part of your ear stuck to the > hive! Try a stethoscope. I heartily recommend the stethoscope method. You can get one at pretty much any drugstore, sometimes for less than $10 (and the really top-of-the-line ones still only cost about $20), and it is way easier to use than trying to press your ear against the side of the hive. Even if you aren't dealing with cold, snow, and large amounts of outdoor clothing, the stethoscope gives you so much more flexibility to listen to almost any part of the hive that the difference is like night and day. Sounds are much more distinct, too. Some specialized tools are easily worth what you pay for them, and this is one of them. -- Tim Eisele tceisele@mtu.edu ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 14:45:44 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: ccd Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>If it's as cold as all that, beware of leaving part of your ear stuck to the hive! Try a stethoscope. A stethoscope works very nicely - if one has one. If not, the ear works just fine. The heat transfer bet. the wooden hive body and the ear is not so great that would cause the ear tissue to stick to the wood. :) Have done it many times without ill effects. >>Time will tell whether I did more good than harm, but I don't think smoking is fair to the bees at this time. Well, it's not fair having to do inspections at this time of the year but if one has the hive in a garage with a single light source overhead, a little smoke will keep the bees calmer if one intends to pull frames to check for ccd-like symptoms. Clustered bees otherwise will put out the alarm odor and some will take to flight. Merely looking at the bees in between the frames without pulling frames will not tell much if one suspects ccd. Waldemar ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 09:44:53 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John & Christy Horton Subject: ccd-Waldemar? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit the following was posted: >>>To my utter amazement there were a few bees flying today (>5,<10) To which Waldemar responded: > Either these bees are desperately short on something or something inside > the hive is driving them out. > > If they are not short on honey, pollen, and water, try to think of other > factors (excessive varroa treatments, pesticide-laden pollen, excessive > moisture due to inadequate ventilation). Chemical contamination may > become unbearable to confined bees. > Question for Waldemar(or others): I dont doubt you Waldemar. Your comments do raise some concerns for me in my own home apiairy. I do at times see bees flying in fairly cold weather, and have felt concern within myself that something may be wrong-especially food shortage....something I am monitoring closely this year as the bees "appear" to have an unusually large amount of brood for this time of year. I would appreciate any observations/comments along thesee lines....even if it is a "Beek 101" response. Thanks John Horton N Alabama ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 11:08:25 -0500 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Two Buck Stethoscope (was "ccd") MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > A stethoscope works very nicely - if one has one. > If not, the ear works just fine. Have the auto-parts store cut you a 2-foot length of "heater hose", and you will have all the "stethoscope" a beekeeper would ever need. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 11:13:28 -0500 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: New Zealand Varroa mite battle/ proactive detection MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Waldemar asked: > I should rephrase somewhat: are there Russian queen producers > out there who will *guarantee* that I will find bitten mites > on sticky boards after installing their queens? I think should simplify the equation somewhat: Are there any queen producers out there who will guarantee anything at all? ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 11:27:26 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Thompson Subject: Re: ccd Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Aaron convinced me to be tactful Brian:answer in archives, not far back more than 1/2 my life Waldemar: good post -- but -- Easier said than done with a foot of snow And I would look for what? glow in dark pollen? lack of bees? ?? brood free from inspection & estimation fall is easy, spring hard Chris: I like the temp sensor idea >evidence of ccd? many indicators, but the clincher is the effect of dead-out boxes on wax moth & ants ccd is deadly to ants Part of the S yard HAD a big ant problem, so bad that 2 of the hives were behind an "oil moat" previous years No more a problem now I've never seen so many bees leave, so consistently at such low temperatures So much so that the birds consider it a feeder (again, NOT excessive #s I hope odd that they chose to die outside) Despite appearances I give these e-mails considerable thought But if there is no interest I'll shut-up After all its no worse than the ag departments are doing What ever happened to "Publish or perish"? dave ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 02:48:48 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.net" Subject: Ob hive and late January dilemma. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I've been advising a local nature center on what they need to do to overwinter their single colony. All was going along well until I got a frantic call this morning that the worker bee population was suddenly down to about 200 insects. When interviewed, my contact said the syrup - the colony went into the fall very light on stores - on the colony was over a week old [I had advised swapping the syrup bottles every couple of days since the hive is in a heated room] and the bees stopped taking it about 3 days ago when the population started crashing... No, I don't think it's ccd but possibly excessive HMF in the warm syrup. Losing 200 worker bees is not the worst thing in the world (although I hate losing any bees!) but the queen is from Purvis Brothers and I was hoping to evaluate her ability to deal with varroa etc. in a small colony...! So how do I save this queen at this time of year? The 200 bees are sitting tight on a small clutch of larvae and eggs but I doubt they will recover their numbers even if I place a light bulb next to the ob hive glass as an additional heat source. Anybody try it with success? My best move would be to order a couple of pounds of bees but does anyone know anyone willing to sell and ship 2 lbs of bees to NY now? My 3rd option is to go into my strongest hive and pull a deep frame with the covering bees and insert it into the ob hive following basic queen protection measures. The problem is our currently frigid weather. Which of the 3 options seems to have the highest chances of success in your opinion? [Failure is not an option!] Waldemar ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 17:08:05 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: ccd-Waldemar? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>I dont doubt you Waldemar. Your comments do raise some concerns for me in my own home apiairy. I do at times see bees flying in fairly cold weather, and have felt concern within myself that something may be wrong-especially food shortage... There is another possibility for cold temp flying on sunny days. The hive warms up enough for the cluster to loosen up. Stimulated, the bees try to remove dead bees from the bottom board. Or, older bees, sensing the end of their life cycle, may depart from the hive so as not to be a burden... All the while, the colony may be just fine. >>something I am monitoring closely this year as the bees "appear" to have an unusually large amount of brood for this time of year. I would appreciate any observations/comments along thesee lines....even if it is a "Beek 101" response. The good books tell us that the Italian bees will brood rearing in late January. From experience we know some hives will never cease broodrearing. What does this mean? The late winter brood rearing is typically limited and not a huge burden on the colonies' reserves at first. The anticipation is that March/April will bring fresh pollen and nectar to continue fueling the colonies. In these months the weather can down the bees for extended and it's best to monitor. I make it a habit to heft the hives whenever I am in the apiary. So far this winter, I have not seen a perceptible drop in weight. If you get some nice weather, it might be enlightening to open up a couple of hives for a brief inspection should you have doubts or are just coming up the beekeeping learning curve. Be very careful though - losing a queen this time of year is very bad news. Waldemar ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:19:31 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: ccd MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 22/01/2008 16:57:20 GMT Standard Time, dthompson@NEXUSISP.COM writes: I've never seen so many bees leave, so consistently at such low temperatures Take as large a sample as you can. Check each bee individually for nosema. Do the sums. Report back to us. A correspondent at Cornell is doing this and it would be interesting to learn whether what he finds is repeated elsewhere. Chris ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:31:21 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: New CCD data Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit http://home.ezezine.com/1636/1636-2008.01.22.09.45.archive.html Kim Flottum posted a short article on CCD related research presented at the big beekeeper meeting in Sacramento. A snippet from his article " The conclusion by the investigators was, at least so far, CCD is “likely an interaction of pesticides, Nosema, virus, nutrition and mites”. But what role each of these plays is still undecided, or unfound. No single factor stands out yet." The article implies that the combs even from supers which were on CCD affected hives are contaminated and potentially deadly. Wow this brings new concerns to buying used equipment or bees on comb. Sounds like irradiation of dead outs will be high on the list for some beeks this year. p.s. for those who wish to subscribe to Kim's news flashes here is the link to sign up http://www.BeeCulture.com/content/catch_buzz.cfm ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 17:34:42 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "deknow@netzero.net" Subject: Re: ccd Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit -- Dave Thompson wrote: ccd is deadly to ants ...really? i have seen reports that ants are slow to rob ccd deadouts, but i've never seen a report that feeding them ccd honey or putting them in a deadout will kill them....where did you learn/hear this? deknow ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 17:39:14 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "deknow@netzero.net" Subject: Re: Ob hive and late January dilemma. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit ..why not take a "weak" hive of yours where you aren't so concerned about the queen, and setup a cone trap on the entrance to trap the bees out, and place it right next to the entrance to the ob hive. let the bees find it themselves when they go out on a cleansing flight. deknow ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 18:19:06 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: ccd Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>good post -- but -- Easier said than done with a foot of snow And I would look for what? glow in dark pollen? lack of bees? I doubt you will see glowing pollen... I'd check the following: 1. number of frames covered by bees 2. amount of honey and pollen 3. presence and size of brood area 4. stick your ear next to the cluster and see if you can discern a 'happy' murmer from the bees or hissing, sharp and not so content 5. do the bees tend to scatter or stick together when the hive is opened and inspected 6. is the hive wet or dry 7. does it smell 'nice' (if you can't measure the temperature, remember that there will be a subtle change in the scent the hive gives off after brood rearing temperatures are established in the clusters) There is a lot you can learn if you take the time/care to look and think about what you are looking at. If things don't apear obvious, draw preliminary conclusions and question them in order to clarify the picture. I don't see how you have many alternative tools - other than direct inspection - for diagnosing the condition of your hives. And I don't know of any off-the-shelf test kits for ccd. I you don't have a good possibility to open up any hives, heft the hives (both the dead ones and the live ones)? What differences, if any, do you see? What extacly did you find in the dead-outs? Where they wet, dry? Remember you are a detective looking for plausible clues. A detective's work often is not easy and you will often start out on a wrong path. Go back often, question (ask the 5 whys until you are sick of it), and check & verify. >>many indicators, but the clincher is the effect of dead-out boxes on wax moth & ants ccd is deadly to ants Did you actually see dead ants and what time of year was this? >>I've never seen so many bees leave, so consistently at such low temperatures So much so that the birds consider it a feeder (again, NOT excessive #s I hope odd that they chose to die outside) This is an interesting observation, should you really have ccd, as birds do not appear to succumb to ccd... >>But if there is no interest I'll shut-up After all its no worse than the ag departments are doing I hope you aspire do to better than some governmental agency. Waldemar ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 11:09:04 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Subject: CCD MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline There is more objective evidence of CCD, for the skeptics. Check out the article by Bee Culture on this url's link.<%20http://home.ezezine.com/1636/1636-2008.01.22.09.45.archive.html> Mike ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 16:02:16 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: ALDEN MARSHALL Subject: Obs. Hive Dilemma MIME-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank>Which of the 3 options seems to have the highest chances of = success in your opinion? [Failure is not an option!] This one and a frame of honey if available. >My 3rd option is to go into my strongest hive and pull a deep frame = with the covering bees and insert it into the ob hive following basic = queen protection measures. The problem is our currently frigid weather. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 17:12:53 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Thompson Subject: Re: ccd Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >...really? i have seen reports that ants are slow to rob ccd deadouts, but i've never seen a report that feeding them ccd honey or putting them in a deadout will kill them....where did you learn/hear this? > >deknow My observation 1 failed ant colonization (abandoned) attempt 1 pathetic attempt (in comparison to previous) time passes Where are the ants? Very few to be seen I'd say none but that's not strictly true All this last summer of course As I said "the clincher" that enables me to discount the nay-sayers, none of whom have ccd dave ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 18:37:39 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: Honey Bee Virus Transmission MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline The study of bee viruses is revealing many new things. I have heard that if one controls mites, one controls viruses. This would appear to be an oversimplification because of the many different viruses and the various means of transmission. > Virus transmission in honey bees appears to involve foodborne transmission, venereal transmission, vector-borne transmission, and mother-to-offspring transmission. Both vertical and horizontal transmission pathways are believed to be important survival strategies for honey viruses not only for their long-term persistence in bee population but also for their establishment in nature, leading to the following model for viral epidemiology. > In horizontal transmission, viruses are transmitted among individuals of the same generation. Horizontal transmission can be further classified as direct or indirect. Horizontal transmission by a direct route includes airborne infection, food-borne infection, and venereal (sexual) infection, whereas transmission by an indirect route involves an intermediate biological host, like a mosquito vector, which acquires and transmits virus from one host to another. In vertical transmission, viruses are passed vertically from mother to offspring via egg, either on the surface of the egg (transovum transmission) or within the egg (transovarian transmission). > When colonies are under non-competitive and healthy conditions, viruses maintain in bee colonies via vertical mechanism of transmission and exist in persistent or latent state without causing honey bees to show any overt signs of infections. Alternatively, when honey bees live under stressful conditions such as infestations of Varroa mite, co-infection of other pathogens, and a decline in food supply which can result in reduction of host growth rate, viruses appear to leave their latent state. High numbers of produced virions then become much more infectious via horizontal transmission mechanism, leading to the death of hosts and possible collapse of the whole bee colony. Source "Horizontal and vertical transmission of viruses in the honey bee, Apis mellifera" Yanping Chen, Jay Evans, Mark Feldlaufer USDA-ARS, Bee Research Laboratory, Beltsville, MD 20705, USA ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 16:05:44 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Winter flights In-Reply-To: <006101c85d0d$bc883420$61e84cd8@HortonFamily> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit John & Christy Horton wrote:I do at times see bees flying in fairly cold weather, ....... I would appreciate any observations/comments along these lines....even if it is a "Beek 101" response.From what I have read and heard, the most common reason for bees flying in cold weather is to defecate. If it has been a long time since the last flight weather, the bees are very anxious to get out to defecate. If your colonies have nosema, this condition is considerably acerbated. Mike in LA --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 19:28:16 -0600 Reply-To: whalen-pedersen@mchsi.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "E. Whalen-Pedersen" Subject: Re: Ob hive and late January dilemma. In-Reply-To: <20080121.184848.26526.0@webmail19.dca.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit waldig@netzero.net wrote: > No, I don't think it's ccd but possibly excessive HMF in the warm syrup. > It is *NOT* the HMF, Waldemar. Hydroxymethylfurfural is a thermal decompoisition product of sugar but there would not be any significant in a warm room over a few days. We are also presuming the syrup is not boiled for an extended time prior either. Honey, stored at above 20C, may perhaps see an increase increase in HMF at the rate of 1 mg/kg (1 ppm) _maximum_ in a month according to the literature. Erik ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 21:16:06 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.net" Subject: Re: Ob hive and late January dilemma. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>..why not take a "weak" hive of yours where you aren't so concerned about the queen, and setup a cone trap on the entrance to trap the bees out... The 'problem' is I don't have any weak hives. They all seem to be in good shape with good queens. Plus we may not get flying weather for a couple of weeks. Waldemar ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 09:14:01 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Irwin_Harlton?= Subject: Consumption of honey in a economic downturn or recession Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Doe anyone care to comment on the thought that honey not being a stable or reguired food, it being a luxury or non necessity food and that during a economic downturn it's consumption decreases. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 08:47:28 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: Royal Jelly Component May Help Heal Brain Injuries MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Royal Jelly Component May Help Heal Brain Injuries AMP N1-oxide Potentiates Astrogenesis by Cultured Neural Stem/Progenitor Cells Through STAT3 Activation Biomedical Research, Vol. 28, pp.295-299 (2007) http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/2008/01/royal-jelly-component-may-help-heal.html ...Our present results suggest that AMP N1-oxide may be a good tool for protection against and therapy for certain brain injuries, because astrocytes play important roles in brain development and the response to injury... ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 07:52:26 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Rossander Subject: Re: Consumption of honey in a economic downturn or recession In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit re: Honey as a luxury item It's always been an interesting hypothesis but there have never been any numbers to prove or disprove the question, especially at the retail level (that is, direct honey sales at the farmers market or roadside stand). Any such economic analysis would have to look at sales over time adjusting for historical price differences and for differences in availability of supply (which is to say, weather). In general, food products are relatively insensitive to overall market conditions. Consumers generally react to moderate economic downturns by eating out less but offset that by eating more "comfort foods" to combat the increased stress of the downturn. (Obviously, these rules of thumb break down in a major depression or famine.) Since most honey used in baking and other cycle-insensitive food products, I would expect honey demand to the wholesale market to be relatively insensitive to the market cycle as well. Mike Rossander --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 17:45:01 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Ian_Steppler?= Subject: Re: Winter flights Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit You might also want to consider cold winter flight as being instinctual behaviour. What I mean is bees tend to prefer to die away from the bee nest during times of good flight weather. They get old, they fly off to die. I figure they do also during winter as they get a chance to break cluster. I often find bees several hundred meters away from the bee yard laying dead ontop of snow banks mid winter. I really doubt they are flying that far to releave themselves. It has to be releated to something more instinctual. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 20:21:15 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: New CCD data Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Brian Fredericksen wrote: >http://home.ezezine.com/1636/1636-2008.01.22.09.45.archive.html "...it seems that the irradiated colonies, by faring better, point to some relationship between a living organism and CCD,..." IMO, that colonies experience a better survival rate when the combs are irradiated could as well point to immune system deficiencies in honeybees. If so, should a treatment be developed to sterilize combs as a ‘routine measure‘, we slip one again into ‘stop gap treatments‘, which as we know failed so very well with varroa and unforeseen side effects. Best Wishes, Joe http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/HistoricalHoneybeeArticles "A California pumpkin which had been utilized by a vagrant colony of bees as a honey store-house, was the first to make its appearance. The insects had found their way into the vegetable through a crack in its side, and when the owner of the pumpkin made an investigation he found that the bees had accumulated eight pounds of honey. The circumstance is being quoted by the California papers as another result of the glorious climate of that state where pumpkins and honey can be raised on the same vine." (The Marshfield Times, December 03, 1886 Marshfield, Wisconsin) ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 20:25:31 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: suicide hypothesis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Greetings I have long wondered if rapid collapse of honey bee colonies infested by varroa, and the so-called "colony collapse disorder" might not be caused by a mass exodus of bees in an attempt to rid the colony of parasites. This could in fact be a last ditch effort to save the queen and enough bees to carry on. Obviously, it fails when carried out in the fall, in northern climates but could have evolved in tropical bees where a small nucleus could in fact regenerate the colony. This idea was put into print in the latest American Bee Journal on page 104. See "Dying outside for the good of the colony" by Jasna Kralj of Ljubljana, Slovenia. She and Stefan Fuchs wrote about this last year in Apidologie (how did I miss that article?) Excerpt: We suggest there could be a colony benefit from not returning to the colony by the removal of the pathogens. Smith-Trail discussed the possibility for an adaptive sacrifice of one's life for the benefit of kin in response to parasites ("suicide hypothesis"), and some examples have since been described in butterflies and aphids. In social insects, bumble bees infested by conopid flies respond by behavioural changes costly to the individual but beneficial to the colony, but up to now there are no clear examples that parasitized individuals might leave the colonies in order to remove pathogens. Parasitic Varroa destructor mites influence flight duration and homing ability of infested Apis mellifera foragers Jasna Kralj, Stefan Fuchs Apidologie 37 (2006) 577–587 ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 21:11:53 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: Consumption of honey in a economic downturn or recession Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit An article from 1932 on file in the Historical Honeybee Articles Archive http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/HistoricalHoneybeeArticles suggest that the bee business was not affected by the depression. I do not know if the same would hold true in todays economic downturn. ====ARTICLE==== Daily News Thursday, April 14, 1932 Huntingdon, Pennsylvania Bee Business Fails to Feel Depression Washington, April , 13.-—The bee business isn't, much affected by the depression, the Department of Agriculture reports. Last year's honey crop was worth about $10,000,000, and bees-wax about $1,000,000. The value of bees in the pollination of fruit was said to be great, although it is inestimable. New methods of preparing and wrapping honey have stimulated the market, the Department states. Likewise nickel candy bars containing honey and almonds have had a huge sale and consequently increased the use for honey. ====END==== There seems to have been a belief during the depression by some, that the industrial revolution and mass production was the cause for the depression. Although it appears beekeepers were weathering the depression rather well, it seems the bees were having some lean years, perhaps due to weather. With many working class longing for a return to the 'good old days' prior to the mass production era, there were some articles expressing this desire by example of the honeybees performance at the time. ====ARTICLE==== Middletown Times Herald September 08, 1932 Middletown, New York “Unemployed Bees Through some curious coincidence the bees are passing through lean years even as man is muddling and suffering through a period of depression…” “…seeming loss of bee thrift and providence may be due to a bumbling dislike for mass production. It is argued that bees prefer personal contact with the keeper and that never again will the busy bee be busy and a willing worker unless the individualized family hive returns to sting to life the old apple orchard….” ====END==== Best Wishes, Joe ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 21:12:59 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: ALDEN MARSHALL Subject: Re: Honey Bee Virus Transmission MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1; reply-type=original Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter L. Borst" To: Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 6:37 PM Subject: [BEE-L] Honey Bee Virus Transmission > The study of bee viruses is revealing many new things. I have heard > that if one controls mites, one controls viruses. This would appear to > be an oversimplification because of the many different viruses and the > various means of transmission. > Perhaps not necessarily it may have more to do with virus proliferation, regardless of type. Alden Marshall ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 05:02:28 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: Colony Collapse Disorder Blamed on Bee Malnutrition MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Colony Collapse Disorder Blamed on Bee Malnutrition Malnutrition May Have Helped Wipe out 750K Bee Hives By Alan Fischer, The Tucson Citizen (USA), 1/24/2008 http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/2008/01/colony-collapse-disorder-blamed-on-bee.html Area researchers believe bee malnutrition contributes to a mysterious phenomenon that wiped out 30 percent of domestic honeybee hives... ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 07:21:10 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: suicide hypothesis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit DISEASE REMOVAL BY ALTERED FLIGHT BEHAVIOR OF FORAGER HONEY BEES (APIS MELLIFERA) INFESTED WITH NOSEMA APIS J. Kralj, S. Fuchs, J. Tautz National institute of Biology, Slovenia > Varroa destructor, a major pest of honey bees, alters flight behavior of foragers to a degree that may prevent their successful return to the colony. Infested workers have impaired orientation and need more time to return to the colony. As V. destructor is a relatively recent pest of the western honey bee Apis mellifera and thus specific adaptations can not be expected, it would be possible that the behavioral response is more general in nature. Here we tested the flight behavior of foragers infested by Nosema apis. Sampling departing and returning bees at the entrance showed lower infestation of returning workers compared to departing workers indicating higher loss of infested bees. Infested workers took 1.7 times longer to return to the colony than uninfested workers when released from the same location. Prolonged flights were also confirmed by labeling workers with radio frequency identification tags (RFID) to register their departure and return at the colony entrance. ! This data also showed that infested workers had shorter life spans and vanished from the colony earlier. The study shows a similar effect of parasitism on flight behavior of foragers infested by N. apis to that shown for V. destructor suggesting that the altered flight behavior of foragers is a general response by diseased bees and it is not limited to infestation by V. destructor. This behavior can be interpreted as *suicidal pathogen removal*, serving as a disease defense mechanism which reduces the colony's load of parasites or pathogens. in Proceedings of the Second European Conference of Apidology EurBee ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 05:34:38 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: New Zealand Firm Certifies Antibacterial Level of Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII New Zealand Firm Certifies Antibacterial Level of Honey First Certified Manuka Honey Launched Scoop Independent News, 1/24/2008 http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/2008/01/new-zealand-firm-certifies.html Manuka Health New Zealand Ltd today announced the launch of the first manuka honey products certified to contain specified levels of the antibacterial ingredient. This follows publication by a German university scientist of a paper which shows for the first time the natural compound Methylglyoxal is responsible for manuka honey's unique health-giving properties... ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 08:12:03 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Colony Collapse Disorder Blamed on Bee Malnutrition In-Reply-To: <200801241238.m0OCYG0e019385@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I almost didn't approve this post, the article is so bad! Note the lessening degree of severity, font size, and boldness from the headline, to tag line, to actual article. Bold headline, font size 12: "Colony Collapse Disorder Blamed on Bee Malnutrition" Bold tagline, font size 10: "Malnutrition May Have Helped Wipe out 750K Bee Hives" No bold, font size 8: "Area researchers believe bee malnutrition contributes" "Blamed" "May Have" "contributes" Give me a break! If you were actually there and heard Gloria speak, she said (and please note I am not putting quotes around what she said, read it as Aaron remembers Gloria Degrandi-Hoffman saying something alone the lines of...) honey bees may not be getting the kind of nutrition they need from their diet these days, and a poor diet may be a possible contributor to the decline in honey bee populations noted these days. There was puzzling speculation that possibly pollen may not be as nutritious as it once was decades ago, for unknown reasons that might be explained by the undeniable environmental changes that are evident in our ecosystems. I am not purposely trying to add vagueness to these statements! Gloria was very careful not to state conclusions, she was merely commenting on data she has collected. The thing I most appreciate about Gloria, is she is a mathematician/statistician first, who also happens to work at the Tucson Bee Lab. She was challenged by someone in the audience who noted that some of her statements may be jaded because she has a vested interest in the Megabee diet that has been such a focus at the Tucson Bee Lab. Her response was she didn't have a vested interest in the diet, per se, she was only presenting data that has been collected at the lab regarding said diet. She stated further that if the data had pointed to different conclusions (for instance that the diet was a lesser performer that their data shows) that she would have presented those numbers too. I am always wary of reporters who interpret what they think they heard and attribute it to what someone else said. I was there! What was written in the Tucson Citizen was not what was said in Sacramento. Coincidently, similar scenarios attributed to the same researcher have taken place here on BEE-L. I would like to have BEE-L informed, but readers should always beware that written words come from the author's interpretation and may not always be correct. Aaron Morris - I think, therefore I bee! ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 14:06:10 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "deknow@netzero.net" Subject: Re: New Zealand Firm Certifies Antibacterial Level of Honey Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit ...if one follows the links, one eventually finds: http://www.manukahealth.co.nz/main.cfm?id=92 "The researchers found antibacterial activity was directly related to the level of Methylglyoxal, with five of the six Manuka honeys having an antibacterial effect at dilutions of 15 to 30%. The compound was confirmed as the active ingredient by testing non-Manuka honey to which Methylglyoxal was artificially added." and http://www.manukahealth.co.nz/main.cfm?id=98 "Q: To what extent is Methylglyoxal responsible for the non-peroxide anti-bacterial activity in manuka honey? A: Our studies show methlyglyoxal is exclusively responsible for the non-peroxide antibacterial activity of manuka honey. There may be some synergistic effects, for instance resulting from polyphenols or not yet identified compounds, which may make methylglyoxal even more effective in honey compared to solutions of methylglyoxal in water. But without methylglyoxal, there probably would be no antibacterial activity at all. " ....if methlyglyoxal is exclusively responsible for the non-peroxide antibacterial activity, i don't see the point of buying honey that has to be transported across the globe in order to get it. deknow ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 06:37:09 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Grant Gillard Subject: Re: Colony Collapse Disorder Blamed on Bee Malnutrition In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Aaron wrote: "I am always wary of reporters who interpret what they think they heard and attribute it to what someone else said." For years, the press/media has been blamed and castigated to have a "liberal bias." But more and more, I think they've gravitated to a pessimistic interpretation toward anything negative, derogatory, defamatory, cataclysmic, tragic, gossipy or anything that portends the sky is falling and we're all going to die or that exercise will kill you or high-fiber/low-fat diets causes mental illness. In the counseling field, they call this type of conjecture, "catatrophizing." And best if they can do it with certainty by quoting an expert. I cringe at the times I've been quoted accurately, but not completely. The lack of context can really make you sound distorted, even creepy like you ought to be arrested. This kind of reporting usually grabs our ears and sells advertising space. I'm always wary that the problem is as bad as they claim, but if you can get an expert quoted out of context......... Grant Jackson, MO --naturally optimistic to the chagrin of all those media types --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 11:27:04 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: joe bossom Subject: dumping on reporters MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable reporters are generally underpaid wannabe essay writers who, one must = presume, do their best writing a readable story from the information = they are given. If they find lapses in the continuity of the presented = material it is probably natural that they fill in the lacunae themselves = in order to create an apparently coherent narrative and an exciting = gestalt. Thus when speaking to reporters it is probably best to do what = you would do when teaching an elementary course, give all the = disclaimers and supportive information and probably giving references = might help as well. The chaotic discussions that have surrounded the "disappearing bee = colony" story produced faerie tales because of the "crisis orientation" = of the presented material. All academics take note! ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 12:38:26 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: New Zealand Firm Certifies Antibacterial Level of Honey In-Reply-To: <20080124.090610.18459.0@webmail13.dca.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > A: Our studies show methlyglyoxal is exclusively responsible for the non-peroxide antibacterial activity of manuka honey. There may be some synergistic effects, for instance resulting from polyphenols or not yet identified compounds, which may make methylglyoxal even more effective in honey compared to solutions of methylglyoxal in water. But without methylglyoxal, there probably would be no antibacterial activity at all. " > > So just add coffee to any honey and you have methylglyoxal in honey, since it is in coffee. But then, it is in other honey but you cannot get the actual concentrations since some may be right up there with manuka. Wonder if espresso would be even better. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine (Home of Expressotherapy) ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 13:18:36 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: dumping on reporters Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit me thinks some of the hype is also generated by bee organizations who wisely are using the "crisis" to push along badly needed government research monies related to honeybees and pollination. private business who offer consulting and solutions to bee health issues also have been active in promoting the extended crisis when in fact no crisis exists at all in obtaining bees. here's a recent example of CCD hype http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/main.jhtml?xml=/earth/2008/01/20/eabees120.xml and what I assume is BBKA's leverage of the "crisis" to work the government system. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 13:32:59 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: dumping on reporters In-Reply-To: <200801241829.m0ODlPSS021958@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > here's a recent example of CCD hype How seriously can one take an article on honey bees that features a picture of bombus!? Aaron Morris - thinking they just don't get it! ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 13:43:00 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Truth About Honeybees....article Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit "Honeybees are disappearing. Searching for likely causes leads us to find out about adulterated honey, poison in beehives and other shocking realities that few of us recognize. " http://www.newstarget.com/022541.html a glaring error concerning artificial insemination in the article but otherwise it's interesting to see that non beeks are figuring out some of the issues relative to CCD, bee health etc. What will be interesting is to see how US consumers react as more of the facts concerning migratory beekeeping are published in different media. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 15:10:43 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Steve_Noble?= Subject: suicide hypothesis Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: DISEASE REMOVAL BY ALTERED FLIGHT BEHAVIOR OF FORAGER HONEY BEES (APIS MELLIFERA) INFESTED WITH NOSEMA APIS J. Kralj, S. Fuchs, J. Tautz National institute of Biology, Slovenia As quoted by Peter Borst: "This behavior can be interpreted as *suicidal pathogen removal*, serving as a disease defense mechanism which reduces the colony's load of parasites or pathogens." Peter, I’m having a hard time making the connection between the impaired ability of individuals to make it back to the hive because of the adverse effects of parasites and the impulse of individuals to commit suicide for the benefit of the colony because of said parasites. The former seems a much more obvious explanation for why individuals would not make it back than the latter. Beyond that, I don’t see how one could distinguish between death by suicide and death as a result physical impairment. Is there something in the studies that you site that shows more directly how the conclusions are made: first of all that bees are deliberately leaving to die rather than just leaving and dieing: and secondly that this would really be of survival benefit to the colony? Presumably it would have to be shown that the removal of parasites from the colony owing to this behavior would outweigh the adverse effect of losing otherwise viable individuals. In the summer and early fall at least, it seems to me that you would have a tendency toward decreased adults in the colony at the same time you would have an increase in the emergence of mites from brood, setting up a cycle of doom for the colony unless more parasites were being carried away than were emerging. If that is true it is difficult to see how this suicide behavior mechanism would be a survival benefit to the colony even if it could be clearly demonstrated that such behavior was actually occuring. I appreciate your posting these kinds of things. They get me to thinking. Steve Noble ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 16:39:59 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: dumping on reporters Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Speaking of ridiculous CCD media stories I had to post this...its just too funny http://www.ufodigest.com/news/0108/honeybees.html suggested song to play while reading http://faultgame.com/images/twilzone.wav Anybody in Texas missing any bees after the UFO"s left a few weeks ago? ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 20:16:20 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Lack of Empathy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This post angered me: "Speaking of ridiculous CCD media stories I had to=20 post this...its just too funny _http://www.ufodigest.com/news/0108/honeybees.html_=20 (http://www.ufodigest.com/news/0108/honeybees.html) " Other than the over the top "HoneyBees Abducted" title, obviously inserted=20 by an editor, this is a report of a CA beekeeper who lost 50% of his =20 operation. =20 =20 Nothing funny about that, just ask Mr. Bradshaw. =20 In the past two weeks, we've been sampling bee operations reporting unusual=20= =20 losses in CA. We visited as many bee operations as we could in terms of ti= me=20 and travel costs - we missed several, couldn't coordinate times, etc. - in=20= a=20 perfect world we'd have sufficient resources to visit and sample EVERY bee=20 operation sustaining bee losses. =20 Here's a brief summary of the last two weeks: =20 =20 2008 CA Trip by the Numbers=20 =B7 13 operations visited=20 =B7 153 hives sampled=20 =B7 540 total bee samples collected for virus and Nosema analysis=20 At least 12 of these operations had classic CCD symptoms. Only one seems t= o=20 be primarily a mite problem - based on Scott's observations. =20 Scott's report - the sample numbers listed represent a small subset of=20 affected colonies - he had to limit how many he sampled in any operation, s= o that=20 he could get to more beekeepers. He also obtained 270 acoustic recordings=20 (we are exploring the use of sound to identify/diagnose pests and diseases=20= in=20 hives). =20 Don't tell any of these beekeepers that missing bees is funny. =20 Jerry =20 =20 **************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. =20 (http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?NCID=3Daolcmp00300= 0000025 48) ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 18:06:14 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Grant Gillard Subject: Re: dumping on reporters In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I don't want to give the impression I'm "dumping" on reporters. But having talked to reporters who asked a million questions, some totally ignorant, irrelevant and off-topic, wrote copious notes in rapid, scribbling fashion, then turned out an article on some tangential angle of minute importance that got shoe-horned into our conversation, I'm a little chagrined. I try and work with my local reporters. Most of the time they come to me because they "heard" some fanscinating story about a single-hive beekeeper in Grover's Corner who walked naked in the bee yard and didn't get stung. I think the fault may lie with me as I happen to mention some other interesting bee fact or attempt to clarify some misconception. Then the reporters become totally enamored with these quizzicle little creatures that the questions come like machine-gun fire. Sometimes they actually stop and listen to my answer before they start formulating the next question. But mostly they are too busy scribbling. It must be a fascinating job, but if you don't know anything about bees (or whatever), the amount of information has to be overwhelming. Most don't know to sort the wheat from the chaff. And editors seem to cut paragraphs irrespective of importance in the name of space. I now ask to preview the article before it goes to the editor to make sure I don't come off looking like some lunatic. And with e-mail, this has become much easier. Grant Jackon, MO --------------------------------- Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 18:59:52 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Paul Cherubini Subject: Re: Truth About Honeybees....article MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Brian Fredericksen wrote: > What will be interesting is to see how US consumers > react as more of the facts concerning migratory > beekeeping are published in different media. The public may already be largely aware that many types of insects are routinely shipped around the country. >From the harvester ants in Uncle Milton Ant Farms: http://www.amazon.com/Uncle-Milton-Giant-Ant-Farm/dp/B00000IRUG to butterflies for release at weddings: http://www.butterflycelebration.com/ to lady bugs, praying mantids, green lacewings, mason bees and more: http://marchbiological.com/ushop/ Paul Cherubini El Dorado, Calif. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 22:37:59 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: ALDEN MARSHALL Subject: CCD Bame MIME-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank>"Blamed" >"May Have" >"contributes" Aaron heard it the same way I did! -- - - - --Oh that media! Alden Marshall ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 00:54:03 -0500 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: New CCD data MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > http://home.ezezine.com/1636/1636-2008.01.22.09.45.archive.html > Kim Flottum posted a short article on CCD related research... Maybe it is just me, but it pegs my irony meter that all the dead-out hives were re-stocked for these trials with package bees from Australia "last fall", at the same exact time that the same exact people were dropping heavy-handed hints about CCD, and the finding of a certain virus in bees from Australia in places like the journal "Science". If what they claimed was true had actually turned out to be true, wouldn't their choice of package bee suppliers been just a little bit counterproductive to getting useful results from the trial? (If anyone needs me to supply a diagram to illustrate for this concern, e-mail me.) Regardless, if we accept the claim that survival rates were better only on irradiated comb, then it should be clear that this is a claim that the problem was/is caused by a pathogen that is able to survive on comb after the bees die and/or abandon the hive. Or multiple pathogens. In other words, the findings, if supported by the data, can only be read as "the cause is one or more biological pathogens". I have no idea why the research team is still repeating the same old mantra quoted once again in the "Catch The Buzz" report: >> The conclusion by the investigators was, at least so far, >> CCD is "likely an interaction of pesticides, Nosema, virus, >> nutrition and mites". But what role each of these plays is >> still undecided, or unfound. No single factor stands out yet. Nonsense. Their own findings say that a single factor certainly does stand out, and it is one or more pathogens. Anything except a pathogen that can survive on the comb of a deadout should be off the list of prime suspects, if they want to present these findings. Why equivocate? If gamma irradiation stopped transmission of CCD, this is as clear and as strong an indication as one can have that CCD is caused by a biological agent that can survive the death of the colony in/on deadout comb. So, one can eliminate pesticides, mites, and nutrition as anything more than minor side issues, as they would not be affected at all by the irradiation of combs, and we can assume these factors to be consistent across the irradiated and non-irradiated hives within any one operation. So, we are left with viruses and/or nosema. Some sort of pathogen. It is heartening to hear this team come back around to considering Nosema seriously after being so dismissive in their paper in "Science" about the 2006/20007 work by Joe DeRisi. And for the record, the "speculation that irradiation will cause some pesticides to break down too" proved to be wrong in light of comparing sunlight to gamma rays and the relative sizes of biological molecules versus pesticides. I bear some responsibility in this, as I reported on this speculation without taking the time to do the math myself, even knowing full well that most "debunking" is nothing more than a matter of simply "doing the math". My bad. When you do sit down and do the math, you find that while the use of gamma irradiation is going to kill any/every living thing placed in the beam, it has, at best, a very small chance of breaking down only a few pesticide molecules, and stands no chance at all of breaking down all the traces of pesticides that might be on any comb or in any pollen. Pesticides like Imidacloprid are designed to break down in sunlight, which means that they are designed to be broken down by UV exposure. Solar UV radiation is higher flux but much lower energy than gamma radiation used in irradiation. If we were talking about air or water rather than radiation, "flux" would be the size of the pipe and hence the stream of air/water, while "energy" would be the velocity of the air or water flowing through the pipe. The massive energy difference between the photons from the two different sources means that a gamma photon will destroy a chemical bond in any/every atom it hits, while a UV photon has a much smaller chance of destroying a bond (by a factor of thousands), and is only a viable threat to certain specific types of chemical bonds. Now for the targets. Pesticides are very small molecules as compared to anything biological. Anything alive is going to be a vastly larger assembly of much bigger molecules than even the most complex pesticide. A virus is many thousands of times larger than a pesticide molecule, but the destruction of almost any single atomic bond in a virus will likely kill that virus particle. The same thing is true for the pesticide molecule, but the virus particle is much larger and has many more intact bonds required for it to be functional. So, the biological targets are so large, they are hard to miss, and a hit anywhere would be "fatal". The pesticide targets are much smaller, and stand much less chance of being hit at all unless you flood the area with uncountable photons, just like the sun does. MaryAnn was going to run some specific tests on pollen to see if gamma radiation would break down any significant percentage of the trace levels of pesticide residues commonly found in pollen, but she does not need to bother, given basic parameters about the two different types of "bullets" and the two different types of "targets". ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 01:05:42 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: Lack of Empathy Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit obviously my humor was directed at the UFO claim as I made two more references to flying saucers in my post. if you look closely, the thread was about crazy and sloppy reporting in the media - please don't distort my post and imply i meant something malicious or unkind. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 01:41:56 -0500 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: dumping on reporters MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If anyone had bothered to read the article cited, they would have found a story written by a reporter who did nothing more than make the unfortunate error of quoting the prepared statement a beekeeping association. "The British Beekeepers Association (BBKA) said that if the crisis continued, honeybees would disappear completely from Britain by 2018, causing "calamitous" economic and environmental problems." While I agree that the offense of taking the statement of any beekeeping association at face value should be grounds for the immediate firing of the reporter, the editor, the publisher, and the burning down of the entire building just to make sure that such a basic error is never made again, I think that the beekeepers share some of the blame here. Look at the bright side - while the number of reporters who have done anything more than drive-by journalism on the CCD story can be counted on the fingers of one hand, this reporter at least spoke with the BBKA and allowed THEM to make the extreme statements. Speaking as a beekeeper, I can confirm that both the press and the general public alternate between states of utter apathy and complete anarchy on an hourly basis, with the transition dictated by one factor: "Is it in my backyard?" CCD is no different from any other "environment" story. Speaking as a reporter, I'd like to point out that they are called "stories" for a reason. "Just the fact's ma'am" died with Jack Webb. People want to read or be told a STORY with a beginning, a middle, and an end. That's really hard to do with a problem that has yet to be clearly defined, let alone solved. All we have are facts with no unifying theme, and some of the things called facts in the recent past have turned out to be utterly bogus in light of more recent findings. And if the reporter dares to presume to connect the dots into a cohesive picture that makes some sort of sense, some people get all huffy and adversarial about it, simply because the reporter did more than copy down THEIR view word for word and anoint it as received wisdom from on high. (And if you think I'm talking about YOU there, then I am, aren't I?). And if you are wondering what pressing and soul-searching questions are asked when informative and entertaining articles are being written, I will present you with an actual transcript from today: Q: "If 'colons' is the plural of 'colon', then is 'colon' the plural of 'semi-colon'?" A: "Only if you are sure you have an EVEN NUMBER of semi-colons!" ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 07:18:20 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: Lack of Empathy Comments: To: Jerry Bromenshenk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Jerry Thanks for the dose of cold water. I agree that there is nothing funny about disappearing bees and disappearing livelihoods. After the news media have moved on to some other story, we will still be stuck with a very difficult situation and if we want to have a thriving beekeeping community in generations to come we have got to figure out how to have healthier bees. I don't know what the solution is, but it isn't to sit back and laugh at other people's misfortunes. Peter ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 09:04:01 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Griggs Mike Subject: digitization of beekeeping books from the EF Phillips library Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v915) The latest digitization of the first 20 volumes of ABJ are in process as per the below communication with the library. We are still in need of money to complete the digitization and then mounting the volumes where beekeepers can see them. >"Due to major library renovations our digitizing process got backlogged over the summer--but I've been in touch about the ABJ volumes. They have gone out; we have enough funding >to cover at least the first 10, but are folding in the additional 30 with some existing work orders in the hopes that getting all of them done at once savs us $ and labor time in the long run. >I'm not sure when the digital files are due back." The hive & the Honey Bee >http://bees.library.cornell.edu/< is the largest on-line presence of beekeeping books and we would like to continue adding important volumes. Mike Griggs ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 09:16:15 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: suicide hypothesis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Steve Noble Peter, I'm having a hard time making the connection between the impaired ability of individuals to make it back to the hive because of the adverse effects of parasites and the impulse of individuals to commit suicide for the benefit of the colony because of said parasites. The former seems a much more obvious explanation for why individuals would not make it back than the latter. Beyond that, I don't see how one could distinguish between death by suicide and death as a result physical impairment. Is there something in the studies that you site that shows more directly how the conclusions are made: first of all that bees are deliberately leaving to die rather than just leaving and dieing: and secondly that this would really be of survival benefit to the colony? Thanks for the interest, Steve. First off, it is a hypothesis, which attempts to explain certain observations: that is, the sudden collapse of bee colonies. I have long thought that it is plausible that the bees might attempt to rid the colony of pathogens by flying off and not returning (suicide). Honey bees are unique in their willingness to sacrifice themselves for the colony as evidenced by their barbed stingers and other "reckless" behaviours. However, I sort of kept this theory to myself, because: how would I prove it? Ms. Kralj and others have been exploring the reasons for this phenomenon in a much more systematic way and if you following the progression of their research, initially it was thought that the non-returning might be caused by some sort of physiological impairment resulting from infestations. I don't doubt this for one minute. Many things could feasibly cause shortened lifespan and disorientation in honey bee foragers. Pesticides, abnormal brood temperatures, and parasites have been suggested. Yet, Ms. Kralj is now suggesting that bees may use "suicide" to rid the colony of pathogens including varroa and nosema. What has caused this shift, I don't know. Presumably the fact that the abnormal behaviour it is not limited to bees infested with varroa suggests something more non-specific. A hypothesis could be formed and verified in at least two ways. First, as an attempt to explain observed data that have already been collected. Secondly, one could work from the other direction and propose an idea such as "what if bees flew off to rid the colony of parasites, what would that look like?" and then see if one could support such a hypothesis with observations, such as the rapid disappearances of older bees, leaving only young bees and the queen. Jasna Kralj writes: > Varroa destructor, an ectoparasitic mite, is one of the most serious pests of the honey bee Apis mellifera causing numerous losses of honey bee colonies worldwide. Life of V. destructor is divided into a reproductive phase in brood and a phoretic phase during which the mite is attached to the adult bee. The mite can leave the colony with workers involved in foraging tasks and may or not return to the colony. That mites do not return to the colony was indicated by recent investigations showing substantially higher infestation of departing workers compared to the infestation of returning workers. The main objective of the study was to provide information whether V. destructor influences flight behavior of foragers and consequently returning frequency of foragers to the colony. The study revealed that infested foragers have extended flights, were impaired in their orientation and return to the colony less frequently. As V. destructor is a relatively recent pest to the western! honey bee A. mellifera and specific adaptations cannot be expected, not returning to the colony could be a more general response to diseases and might be a trait which could be enhanced in breeding programs to strengthen the behavioural defence against V. destructor and possibly to other honey bee diseases. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 06:18:32 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Eugene Makovec Subject: Re: dumping on reporters In-Reply-To: <754731.23711.qm@web31611.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > It must be a fascinating job, but if you don't > know anything about bees (or whatever), the amount > of information has to be overwhelming. Most don't > know to sort the wheat from the chaff. Now take that concept and apply it to the other news of the day. After seeing how badly some of these guys can butcher an article about bees, can we really trust their stories on politics, economics and the environment? Eugene Makovec ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 09:41:11 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: Behavior Induced by Parasites MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > Behavioral Modifications in Insects Induced by Parasites and Pathogens by > Behavioral modifications have been observed in many insects as a result of parasitism or pathogens. Altered behaviors can include changes in activities which result in the insect being more conspicuous to predation. Many hypotheses have been introduced to explain how the modified behaviors evolved. These theories include kin selected-host suicide. In host suicide the host behaves in such a way as to increase the probability of death by predation in order to lower the risk of parasite infection for other members of the host species (Nicole Rempel) SEE http://tinyurl.com/3de8uf http://www.colostate.edu/Depts/Entomology/courses/en507/papers_1997/rempel.html ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 10:00:41 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: New CCD data In-Reply-To: <000001c85f16$b10c9450$0201000a@j> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If irradiation does kill off the CCD agent, then the main culprit should be spore-like in nature. Unless virus' can stay alive for any length of time outside the host in air, sunlight, and all the other things that tend to kill them, then they should not be the underlying cause of CCD. However, bacteria and fungi can revert to spores in their dormant stage, and can survive for exceptionally long periods under very harsh environments, so they would seem to be prime candidates for CCD. Nosema is a fungus which forms spores that can survive for long periods. No QED here, but Nosema seems to be in the forefront. Again, it may not be that it is the cause, but coupled with any other stress factor, could easily cause colony collapse. AIDs does not kill, but just about anything combined with it does. Same with a bunch of diseases associated with old age, like congestive heart failure. It is often only pneumonia that is on the death certificate. Transporting bees over distance is stressful. Winter is stressful. Mites are stressful. Add that there have been combinations of Tracheal and nosema that caused massive bee kills, and there does seem to be a pattern. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 10:22:16 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: suicide hypothesis In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I posted on this many months ago in relation to the behavior of bees and if CCD only triggered the behavior. Jerry commented on the post. If you want concrete examples of bees leaving the hive when they have a pathogen, look no further than Tracheal mites in winter. Infected bees will move out of the hive and cluster on the hive and die of the cold. I have seen pictures of this taken by Tony Jadczak. The bees left in the hive will test negative for TM. Same with Varroa. Bees have been observed leaving a hive in large numbers and crawling toward low spots where they die.The bees left have few mites. So it is not that it might happen. It does. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 15:30:51 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Rowbottom Subject: Re: dumping on reporters In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Some care is required in interpreting the article quoted by Brian. The "quote" about honey bees disappearing by 2018 does not look to me like a lifted quote from a press release, but a journalist's interpretation. Further down the article, quotation marks appear around two sentences suggesting that these are actual words from the release. My understanding of the British Beekeepers Associations' approach is that they are just quoting back to the government Ministers statements that the government Ministers have themselves made. On 27th November 2007 Lord Rooker, a government Minister in the responsible department (Department of Environment Farming and Rural Affairs) said in the House of Lords "We do not deny that bee health is at risk. Frankly, if nothing is done about it, the honey-bee population could be wiped out in 10 years. There is no question about that." And that is a genuine quotation from Hansard, the official record of the proceedings in the UK Parliament, and NOT any reporter's efforts. The other relevant factors with which the Ministers agree are these: 1) Bees add very great value to the UK farming economy. 2) There are many threats facing bee health in the UK, both old (varroa and nosema apis) and new (nosema cerana and, potentially, small hive beetle and tropilaelaps). 3) The government money spent on bee research in the UK has remained the same in cash values over recent years and is in any case very small in relation to the added value effected by bees. The government controlled bee research facilities in the UK appear to have first call on such government money as there is, resulting in job cuts for eminent scientists in other institutions in recent years. Given the "spin" and dirty tricks that governments get up to in defending themselves in general, taken with the low priority that is given to beekeeping by the UK government, is it any surprise that relatively poorly funded beekeepers' organisations such as the BBKA have to use all the ammunition that they have to get their points across? If that means quoting the Minister's statements back to him via the media is that a major sin? Regards Mike Rowbottom 3 Rutland Road HARROGATE North Yorkshire UK -----Original Message----- >From Brian Fredericksen and what I assume is BBKA's leverage of the "crisis" to work the government system. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 11:52:43 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Steve_Noble?= Subject: Re: New CCD data Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Jim Fischer wrote: “So, one can eliminate pesticides, mites, and nutrition as anything more than minor side issues, as they would not be affected at all by the irradiation of combs, and we can assume these factors to be consistent across the irradiated and non-irradiated hives within any one operation.” ### Except that you might want to consider the possibility that the bacterial or viral or fungal pathogen is transmitted by a parasite such as Varroa or tracheal mites, which would make controlling mites the key to controlling CCD. Bill Truesdell writes: “Nosema is a fungus which forms spores that can survive for long periods. No QED here, but Nosema seems to be in the forefront. Again, it may not be that it is the cause, but coupled with any other stress factor, could easily cause colony collapse.” ### It’s my understanding that some funguses produce toxins that can kill. I am wondering if something like that could be happening in this CCD scenario. If a fungus were producing a toxic byproduct it might help explain the delay in moth and beetle infestation as well as the delay in ant and bee robbing that has been observed. I’m sure this has been carefully considered. Jerry? Steve Noble ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 12:29:06 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Steve_Noble?= Subject: Re: suicide hypothesis Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Peter, thanks for explaining the suicide theory further. I guess I can see how a generalized behavioral response such as self sacrifice could be of benefit in certain conditions and in other conditions might be counter productive, as would seem to be the case if it were to result in the collapse of the colony. You would have to assume that if such a mechanism does exist it would have to have been the result of evolution over long periods of time in response to stresses that have also existed for long periods of time. If suddenly a new wrinkle were to come into the picture in the form of a particularly pernicious pathogen that had not been encountered in the past, then this behavior might not work the way it was designed to. What this tells me is that it might be quite tricky, to say the least, to select for this behavior as a way of combating something like CCD. Bill Truesdell wrote: “look no further than Tracheal mites in winter. Infected bees will move out of the hive and cluster on the hive and die of the cold. Bill, I have actually seen this myself in one of my hives last spring. I concluded, as you say, that it was tracheal mites. A lot of bees were dying after coming back from the field and congregating near the entrance. There was no streaking. The bees looked like they were breathing hard. I hit the hive with a Formic acid treatment and the hive, which I had pretty much given up on, recovered amazingly. It actually produced a surplus. It would have been interesting to see if the colony would have recovered without the formic treatment. If so, then it would seem to be a case in support of the suicide hypothesis. But then there would have to also be no other logical explanation other than deliberate self sacrifice, such as… that they instinctively new it would be harder to breath in the hive than out in the open and could not foresee that they would die outside. Either way if it resulted in a net benefit for the colony and resulted in the colony surviving, that behavior would tend to be passed on. Steve Noble ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 13:42:26 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: suicide hypothesis Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Steve Noble wrote: > You would have to assume that if such a >mechanism does exist it would have to have been the result of evolution >over long periods of time in response to stresses that have also existed >for long periods of time. Precisely. Dr. Kralj states that it wouldn't be a direct response to varroa since European bees haven't been associated with them long enough to produce a specific response to that pest. Rather, it would a generalized response to parasites and/or pathogens in general and if it is from the distant evolutionary past then it may be shared with other species of Apis. Most of Apis is tropical and a response such as the depletion of the large part of the adult population would not necessarily kill the colony, if the queen and a few thousand workers remained. The effect is similar but different from absconding, which is common in tropical Apis but fairly unusual in Apis mellifera. Personally, I have seen colonies abscond due to ant attacks. pb ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 19:49:00 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Steve Rose Subject: Re: dumping on reporters In-Reply-To: <200801251509.DUN86070@c2bthomr12.btconnect.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mike Rowbottom wrote: > If that means quoting > the Minister's statements back to him via the media is that a major sin? > > Hi Mike It might not be a major sin but I think it was unwise. I don't think the BBKA will strengthen their case by endorsing such sensational language. That should be left to politicians and tabloids. Regards Steve Rose Derbyshire, England. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 16:00:36 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Carl & Virginia Webb Subject: Re: Behavior Induced by Parasites MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Peter, I have long believed that death of diseased or weak colonies of bees is = an important part of the immune system for the species. Glad someone = agrees. Carl Webb ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 14:49:10 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.net" Subject: Re: New CCD data Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>Their own findings say that a single factor certainly does stand out, and it is one or more pathogens. Anything except a pathogen that can survive on the comb of a deadout should be off the list of prime suspects, if they want to present these findings. This depends on one's viewpoint. If one is merely looking at addressing the top level symptoms, than this statement is true. But if one wants to address the base root causes and prevent reoccurance, this matter has to be looked into deeper. Honey bees have lived in a sea of pathogens or at least potential pathogens for a very long time. The bees' immune system has evolved/adapted to successfully deal with just about all these organisms without human interference. But if the immune system is weakened by chemicals, pesticides, stress .... (feel free to fill in the blanks), the bees can succumb to relatively benign organisms. Yes, the last nail in the coffin may well turn out to be a pathogen and irradiation my be a shortterm fix until the pathogen re-establishes itself in the hive and wreck havoc again. But if you fix the real root cause - eliminate the factors whose presence has caused the compromised immune system - and you should fairly assured you have prevented reoccurance of the disease in a sustainable :)) way. I say fairly above since, from human & livestock studies, we know there are pathogens such as some rotaviruses that are beyond the immune system's detection capabilities where the immune system isn't alerted to develop countermeasures. Without human intervention, this may be a hopeless situation. I would resort to irradiation only as the last ditch effort after having done all that can be done in bringing back the immune system to its top level. Irradiation is an equal opportunity destroyer - there may be organisms in the hive beneficial to the bees that irradiation will eliminate possibly creating another [major/minor] issue. Waldemar ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 19:58:53 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: suicide hypothesis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 25/01/2008 14:27:57 GMT Standard Time, peterlborst@GMAIL.COM writes: Is there something in the studies that you cite that shows more directly how the conclusions are made: first of all that bees are deliberately leaving to die rather than just leaving and dieing: and secondly that this would really be of survival benefit to the colony? My favourite philosopher is William of Occam who wrote "Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem" which, being construed into English, means "Entities are not to be multiplied beyond necessity" or into American "Keep it simple baby". Bees do prefer to ease their bowels away from home. The reasons for doing so are obvious and needn't be rehearsed in this mail. Darwin would have ensured that reason was turned into practice. If their final movement is away from the hive then sisters don't have to lick up the mess and then go on to feed the babies. Chris ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 20:01:41 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Behavior Induced by Parasites MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 25/01/2008 15:00:47 GMT Standard Time, peterlborst@GMAIL.COM writes: Altered behaviors can include changes in activities which result in the insect being more conspicuous to predation. This can result in the predator becoming an intermediate host for the pathogen. Chris ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 20:08:13 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: dumping on reporters MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 25/01/2008 15:40:55 GMT Standard Time, cognant.mike@BTCONNECT.COM writes: beekeepers' organisations such as the BBKA have to use all the ammunition that they have to get their points across Indeed i heard in the wireless (BBC) this evening a Mr T.Lovett being quoted reporting very much the same things that you do. Chris ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 12:08:38 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Rowbottom Subject: BBKA Press Statement MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just for the record if anyone is interested, here is the press release from the BBKA. The words "We're facing calamitous results" which appear to upset some, are nowhere to be seen: http://www.bbka.org.uk/news/news/bbka/defra-refuses-extra-funding.shtml Mike Rowbottom HARROGATE North Yorkshire UK ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 23:25:35 +1300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: grantredshaw Subject: New Zealand Manuka Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here is a link that may help to explain the difference between NZ Manuka honey and other honey's in general. http://www.mgomanuka.com/main.cfm?id=12 Grant ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 07:55:19 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: Behavior Induced by Parasites MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > Parasites and their hosts show behavioral as well as physiological interactions. Parasites are able to alter the behavior of their hosts, and hosts in turn may employ behavioral retaliation in response to parasitic infection. > Host suicide is the term coined to describe aberrant behavior on the part of an infected host which leads to increased probability of death by predation. Host suicide will increase the inclusive fitness of the host if (1) the suicide prevents the maturation of the parasite; (2) the mature parasite is more likely to infect the host's kin than nonkin; and (3) the benefit to the host, in terms of the increased fitness of the kin, is greater than the cost of the suicide, measured in terms of the loss of the host's own reproductive fitness. > Host suicide is most profitable when the host is infected by a parasitoid. The parasitoid reduces the host's reproductive fitness to zero, so that the cost of the suicide is also zero. FROM: Smith Trail, D.R. 1980. Behavioral Interactions Between Parasites and Hosts: Host Suicide and the Evolution of Complex Life Cycles. The American Naturalist 116(1): 77-91. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 13:33:53 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "deknow@netzero.net" Subject: Re: New Zealand Manuka Honey Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit from the link provided: http://www.mgomanuka.com/main.cfm?id=12 "Our studies show methlyglyoxal is exclusively responsible for the non-peroxide antibacterial activity of manuka honey. There may be some synergistic effects, for instance resulting from polyphenols or not yet identified compounds, which may make methylglyoxal even more effective in honey compared to solutions of methylglyoxal in water. But without methylglyoxal, there probably would be no antibacterial activity at all." ...which to me reads, "at this point, we have no data or evidence to suggest that honey (even our honey with trademarked "factors") has anything to do with the effectiveness of manuka honey, but that it is due to the presence of methlygloyoxal, and we also have no data to suggest that methlygloyoxal on it's own, or added to other honey wouldn't be just as effective". deknow ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 10:03:05 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: New Zealand Manuka Honey In-Reply-To: <000201c86005$d9de8100$1ac836d2@yourvrozpt3zvx> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If you google methylglyxol you find that it might be a factor in a variety of health problems, especially at the concentrations noted.It is interesting that subcutaneous application does cause cancer. It is not a benign chemical.It is still in the "what does it actually do" and "is it a factor as a carcinogen in food" stage. So far, the jury is out. A bit of prudence should be applied before using it as a cure-all. There are toxic honeys such as rhododendron, as most all on this list know. It would be interesting to find out the answer to why does a plant secrete such high concentrations of methylglyxol, when most are fine with much lower concentrations. It does appear at much lower concentrations in a variety of foods, including coffee and tea, on which most cancer studies concentrate. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 13:21:56 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juanse Barros Subject: New Honey market report / honey price keeps rising Comments: To: honey_australia@yahoogroups.com Comments: cc: Rodolfo Klaassen , =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Gerardo_L=FCckeheide?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline http://www.skamberg.com/honey.htm -- Juanse Barros J. APIZUR S.A. Carrera 695 Gorbea - CHILE +56-45-271693 08-3613310 http://apiaraucania.blogspot.com/ juanseapi@gmail.com ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 16:24:58 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "deknow@netzero.net" Subject: Re: Behavior Induced by Parasites Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit peter, this sounds like common sense to me. dogs (who live socially) also go off on their own to die. i can imagine that a dying animal might have all kinds of parasites/bacteria/viruses, and that a dying animal might also be an easy target for predators. perhaps hiding is for short term self preservation...but not making "the family home" a good target helps "the family"...as does moving an exploding population of parasites/bacteria/viruses away from the home. deknow -- "Peter L. Borst" wrote: > Parasites and their hosts show behavioral as well as physiological interactions. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 15:20:37 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: Behavior Induced by Parasites Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit deknow@netzero.net wrote: >this sounds like common sense to me. Sure, but being scientifically minded, I tend to look for more than just a hunch. I mean, I still haven't seen proof that they aren't just flying off sick and losing their way back. To actually prove suicide is a bit more difficult. It's like the guy that gets roaring drunk and plows into a freeway overpass. Is it suicide or nature's way of taking out the unfit? pb ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 14:24:10 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John & Christy Horton Subject: New CCD data MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I read the little blurb at the bottom from the link Jim posted 1/25/2008. What it says to me is that the hives treated in a way that should kill all pathogens had a survival rate of 70 out of 100 hives, and the ones without had a surival rate of 50 out of 100 hives.... Does anybody know how a similiar testing of sterilized vs non-sterized "non-CCD" deadouts would fare? I would think one would expect at least a slightly higher survival rate with sterilized equipment. Perhaps this has been addressed, if so I would be interested in the findings. Thanks, John Horton From link provided: "Those colonies treated with acetic acid, the control colonies and those put on just honey comb were all reporting about a 50% loss late in November. The colonies that had been irradiated showed a 70% survival rate, which, in the world of commercial beekeeping isn't too bad, unfortunately. And, though not perfect, it seems that the irradiated colonies, by faring better, point to some relationship between a living organism and CCD, though there is some speculation that irradiation will cause some pesticides to break down too, so that hasn't been ruled out." ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 19:33:43 -0500 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: New CCD data MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Steve Noble offered: > ...you might want to consider the possibility that the > bacterial or viral or fungal pathogen is transmitted by > a parasite such as Varroa or tracheal mites, which would > make controlling mites the key to controlling CCD. If any of those possibilities were the case, then, colonies from packages on irradiated combs would have fared no better than colonies from packages put on non-irradiated combs. I feel that it is very clear that we can specifically eliminate parasites from the equation as a result of this little test, as parasites must be stipulated to have been equal across both irradiated and non-irradiated hives. Waldemar offered: > But if the immune system is weakened by chemicals, pesticides, stress.... > (feel free to fill in the blanks), the bees can succumb to relatively > benign organisms. Hold on there - we are talking about NEW PACKAGES, installed on irradiated or non-irradiated comb, and then treated "exactly the same" (as best as could be asked). The irradiated combs directly resulted in colonies with a significantly better survival rate. We don't need to conjure up imaginary and inherently unquantifiable factors like "stress", as any "stress" was EQUAL across the different colonies in the study. As for "pesticides", again, any exposure to pesticides would be equal, with both irradiated and non-irradiated hives exposed to the same stuff. (As I explained, the gamma radiation is not going to impact pesticides on the combs at all.) Waldemar said: > But if you fix the real root cause - eliminate the factors whose presence > has caused the compromised immune system - and you should fairly assured > you have prevented reoccurrence of the disease in a sustainable :)) way. I have yet to see any data that would lead any reasonable observer to speculate about a two-stage process, where immune systems are compromised by some "root cause" and an otherwise non-fatal pathogen delivers the coup de grace. I'm really getting a little tired of speculation about a "root cause" that does nothing but allow those with an agenda to condemn "modern beekeeping" or "modern agriculture" as "misguided". We have a specific subset of hives that have died from a unique problem with very unique symptoms, so if you want to condemn "commercial beekeeping" in general, you'd first have to show us that all hives, or at least the majority in "commercial beekeeping" are suffering from the problem, and showing the same symptoms. The majority aren't suffering, so the speculation is utterly baseless. (And please stop condemning modern apiculture with your mouth full.) > I would resort to irradiation only as the last ditch effort after > having done all that can be done in bringing back the immune system > to its top level. There's only one little problem here. You have no way to measure "the immune system", nor do you have any way to make even a relative qualitative comparison between one hive and another, or one bee and another in terms of "immune system". I've said it before, and I'll repeat again: You Cannot Control That Which You Don't Measure! So, if you can't measure it, don't pretend that we can somehow "bring it back" to ANY level. The use of the term "level" presumes that there is a metric somewhere, but all that has been offered has been vague adjectives. Phrases like "bringing back the immune system" are the language of the snake oil salesman, and the late-night infomercial peddlers of herbal nutritional supplements. The irradiation is simply a R&D tool anyway. I don't see this as a viable "treatment", as it can only be done AFTER a hive dies. We need to prevent this, not just clean up after it. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 23:20:38 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Decontamination of pesticide packing using ionizing radiation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Contrary to assertions made that gamma radiation does not affect = pesticides I offer the following:=20 =20 An Introduction to Environmental Biotechnology Limited preview - by Milton Wainwright - 1999 - Technology & Engineering = - 192 pages Pesticides can also be removed by physical means including the = application of UV light and gamma irradiation =20 Decontamination of pesticide packing using ionizing radiation=20 C.L. Duarte, a, , M.N. Moria, Yasko Kodamaa, H. Oikawaa and M.H.O. = Sampaa=20 aInstituto de Pesquisas Energ=E9ticas e Nucleares-IPEN-CNEN/SP Av. Lineu = Prestes 2.242, 05508-900, S=E3o Paulo, SP, Brazil=20 Received 27 December 2006; accepted 16 February 2007. Available online = 10 May 2007.=20 =20 Abstract The Brazilian agriculture activities have consumed about 288,000 tons of = pesticides per year conditioned in about 107,000,000 packing with weight = of approximately 23,000 tons. The discharge of empty plastic packing of = pesticides can be an environmental concern causing problems to human = health, animals, and plants if done without inspection and monitoring. = The objective of this work is to study the ionizing radiation effect in = the main pesticides used in Brazil for plastic packing decontamination. = Among the commercial pesticides, chlorpyrifos has significant importance = because of its wide distribution and extensive use and persistence. The = radiation-induced degradation of chlorpyrifos in liquid samples and in = polyethylene pack was studied by gamma radiolysis. Packing of = high-density polyethylene (HDPE) three layer coextruded, named COEX, = contaminated with chlorpyrifos, were irradiated using both a = multipurpose Co-60 gamma irradiator and a gamma source with 5000 Ci = total activity Gamma cell type. The chemical analysis of the = chlorpyrifos was made using a gas chromatography associated to the Mass = Spectrometry-GCMS from Shimadzu Model QP 5000. Gamma radiation was = efficient for removing chlorpyrifos from the plastic packing, in all = studied cases.=20 =20 Keywords: Gamma radiation; Chlorpyrifos; Packing Decontamination; = Pesticides=20 =20 Corresponding author.=20 Radiation Physics and Chemistry=20 Volume 76, Issues 11-12, November-December 2007, Pages 1885-1889 =20 =20 =20 ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 23:44:15 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Steve_Noble?= Subject: Re: New CCD data Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I wrote > ...you might want to consider the possibility that the > bacterial or viral or fungal pathogen is transmitted by > a parasite such as Varroa or tracheal mites, which would > make controlling mites the key to controlling CCD. Jim Fischer responded: If any of those possibilities were the case, then, colonies from packages on irradiated combs would have fared no better than colonies from packages put on non-irradiated combs. Does the fact that the final pathogen that produces CCD persists on dead out equipment really preclude the existence of an intermediary such as Varroa? If so how? I guess I just don't see how it is necessarily an either/or proposition. And if there is an intermediate carrier, then wouldn't controlling that carrier be crucial to at least reducing the risk of CCD? Also, I am not sure I see that stress is something that ought not be considered here. And I'm not on the anti commercial band wagon. The fact that in the study you mention stress was the same for all colonies just means that stress was not a part of the test. Stress may not be easily measured, but it certainly can be induced. That stress tends to weaken an organism's immune system is a pretty universally accepted notion if not a scientifically proven fact. On the other hand it is possible that the honey bee immune system has no chance against whatever causes CCD in which case no amount of stress reduction would do any good against it. It does seem like this possibility has not been as fully considered as the ones that tend to point the finger at commercial beekeepers, those ultimate stress inducers of all time. It just occurred to me that if stress is such a big factor in CCD then stationary beekeepers ought not worry about getting it since their bees are all on the Apis equivalent of a yoga retreat. I'm just kidding. Steve Noble ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 23:57:41 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Steve_Noble?= Subject: Re: Behavior Induced by Parasites Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >From Peter Borst’s previous post: “Host suicide is most profitable when the host is infected by a parasitoid. The parasitoid reduces the host's reproductive fitness to zero, so that the* (added)* cost of the suicide is also zero.” So in order for this mechanism to have evolved or otherwise been acquired by European honey bees it seems likely that there are, or would have been, parasitoids that they or their close ancestors have had to deal with for a long time. Aside from the very difficult task of determining if it is suicide or a pathogen that kills bees that leave and don’t return, some of the questions that need to be answered, it seems to me, include: Are their any such ancient parasitoids known to be associated with honey bees? Are Varroa and or TM parasitoids in the true sense, i.e. do they for certain reduce their host’s reproductive fitness to zero? How does the fact that Apis melifera is a social insect, whose individuals are not all capable of reproducing, affect the way this mechanism would function for the benefit of the species? In other words would we need to examine the virulence of the prospective parasitoid in terms of its impact on the reproductive fitness of the individuals or the colony as a whole? Both individuals and colony can be thought of as host for the parasite in this situation, and a colony does embody some of the characteristics of an individual in this regard, so it gets a little more interesting. It would seem that the reproductive fitness of the colony is what's at stake here, and yet it is the non-reproductive workers who would be committing suicide. My head is spinning. Like many host-parasite relationships this gets very complicated and nothing about it seems obvious to me. I think that when anything involving behavior in the natural world starts to seem obvious, red flags should go up. But the mind boggling complexity of nature is also what makes it fascinating and awe inspiring to me. Steve Noble ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 03:58:53 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juanse Barros Subject: New CCD data In-Reply-To: <000001c8607c$45f71110$7701a8c0@j> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline "Those colonies treated with acetic acid, the control colonies and those put on just honey comb were all reporting about a 50% loss late in November. The colonies that had been irradiated showed a 70% survival rate I wonder how were those combs? Dry or with some capped honey? If the latter I know for my own experiments that acetic fumes can not penetrates the honey and the spores keep in there. Acetic treatment only work on dry combs. I rise this question cause I understand that we are talking about sterilizing combs from CCD deadouts, and we also know that those combs have some honey in them because "no other predator got in the hive for robbing that honey for a while. If the above is true the experiment is not well formulated, nor the treatment with acetic acid. -- Juanse Barros J. APIZUR S.A. Carrera 695 Gorbea - CHILE +56-45-271693 08-3613310 http://apiaraucania.blogspot.com/ juanseapi@gmail.com ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 10:37:41 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Gavin Ramsay Subject: Re: Decontamination of pesticide packing using ionizing radiation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Just to add further detail to Aaron's post about the possibilit= Hi All=0A=0AJust to add further detail to Aaron's post about the possibilit= y of gamma irradiation destroying pesticides:=0A=0AAccording to (1) gamma i= rradiation can cause the loss of chloride ions from biphenyls such as dioxi= ns (also see the refereed paper 2), essentially detoxifying them.=0A=0AThe = abstract which Aaron gave discussed the detoxification of chlorpyrifos by g= amma irradiation. This molecule (3), like the world's number one insectici= de (4) imidacloprid (5), has a chlorine-substituted nitrogen-containing rin= g. It would seem to be a reasonable working hypothesis that dechlorination= was involved in the detoxification of chloropyrifos that Aaron reported, a= nd that this could also operate in the chloronicotinyl insecticides such as= imidacloprid.=0A=0ASurely someone is measuring residues in stores and on d= ry empty comb (irradiated and unirradiated) of CCD hives?=0A=0Aall the best= =0A=0AGavin =0A=0A(1) http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/Radiation_chemistry=0A= (2) http://tinyurl.com/2ytbua=0A(3) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chlorpyrif= os=0A(4) http://www.chemiplant.com/es/chemiplant/noticias/imidacloprid_agre= ement_02.htm=0A(5) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imidacloprid ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 05:13:17 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: Scientist: Colony Collapse Disorder Due to Malnutrition, Disease MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Scientist: Colony Collapse Disorder Due to Malnutrition, Disease Scientists Say It's Time to Act Now to Ward Off a Pollination Crisis Madolyn Rogers, Santa Cruz Sentinel (USA), 1/27/2008 http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/2008/01/scientist-colony-collapse-disorder-due.html At the 28th annual Ecological Farming Conference in Monterey Thursday, scientists discussed the possible causes of the steep loss of honeybee colonies nationwide in 2007, and said now is the time to take action to ward off a pollination crisis... ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 05:33:12 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: Study Investigates Anti-Arthritic Effect of Bee Venom MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Study Investigates Anti-Arthritic Effect of Bee Venom Effects of Melittin on the Production of Matrix Metalloproteinase-1 and -3 in Rheumatoid Arthritic Fibroblast-Like Synoviocytes Journal of Pharmacological Sciences, Vol. 106 (2008) , No. 1 pp.162-166 http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/2008/01/study-investigates-anti-arthritic.html Bee venom (BV) has been used in patients with arthritis, including rheumatoid arthritis, to reduce pain and edema . In the arthritic rat model, BV has been shown to act as an anti-inflammatory adjuvant and to reduce LPS-induced inflammatory edema and polyarthritis . The hydrophilic peptide melittin, the major active ingredient of BV, may retain anti-RA activity in rabbit models of immune-mediated arthritis. We have previously shown that melittin downregulates MMP-3 expression in human osteoarthritic chondrocytes . Here, we examined the effects of melittin on MMP1 and MMP3 production in human FLS obtained from RA patients... ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 08:10:06 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Walter Zimmermann Subject: Decontamination of pesticide packing using ionizing radiation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit w.r.t. Decontamination of pesticide packing using ionizing radiation I suggested here in Ontario that deadouts should be irradiated for decontamination purposes e.g. viruses etc this could also be an additional step in that any POSSIBLE fluvinate/coumophos contamination in wax be solved ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 14:18:24 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Gavin Ramsay Subject: Re: New CCD data MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > The fact that in the study you mention stress was t= Hi Steve and All=0A=0A> The fact that in the study you mention stress was t= he same for=0A> all colonies just means that stress was not a part of the t= est.=0A> Stress may not be easily measured, but it certainly can be=0A> ind= uced.=0A=0AAgreed. Remember that the report said this:=0A=0A'The colonies = that had been irradiated showed a 70% survival rate, which, in the world of= commercial beekeeping isn't too bad, unfortunately.' =0A=0AWith 70% survi= val being typical it certainly sounds like the management systems employed = stress colonies.=0A=0Aall the best=0A=0AGavin (whose current 60% survival r= ate suggests that his practices are worse than those of US commercial beeke= epers!) ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 15:54:59 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: New CCD data In-Reply-To: <860964.8616.qm@web86202.mail.ird.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am sure someone knowledgeable will help me out here concerning the irradiated/not irradiated comb. As I understand it, this was a spring/summer/fall loss, not over a winter, with a commercial pollinator. Plus, it was an estimate, not an actual count.I may just remember the initial reports, but there may have been follow-up studies of a more scientific nature. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 15:57:31 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Old CCD data In-Reply-To: <860964.8616.qm@web86202.mail.ird.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Another confirmation in today's paper that CCD has not been found in Maine. We do have resident commercial beekeepers and 60,000 + colonies come in every year. Along with the best Bee Inspector in the country. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 02:05:09 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: New CCD data Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>Hold on there - we are talking about NEW PACKAGES, installed on irradiated or non-irradiated comb, and then treated "exactly the same" (as best as could be asked). The irradiated combs directly resulted in colonies with a significantly better survival rate. That was my point! Irradiated comb will give colonies a sort of a head start/ temporary respite by knocking off all [good and bad] organisms. Over time both types will recover their numbers. Then what - irradiate again? Clearly a short term fix at best that one will need to pay for to apply again and again. What if bees on clean comb with access to clean forage, could deal with pathogens? Would it not be nice? One would not need to resort to radiation. >>(As I explained, the gamma radiation is not going to impact pesticides on the combs at all.) A fellow Bee-L-er, not wishing to cross tennis raquets :) with you on this forum, privately offered a couple tidbits of info to the contrary. One reads: 'Decontamination of pesticide packing using ionizing radiation C.L. Duarte , a, , M.N. Moria, Yasko Kodamaa, H. Oikawaa and M.H.O. Sampaa aInstituto de Pesquisas Energéticas e Nucleares—IPEN-CNEN/SP Av. Lineu Prestes 2.242, 05508-900, São Paulo, SP, Brazil Received 27 December 2006; accepted 16 February 2007. Available online 10 May 2007. Abstract The Brazilian agriculture activities have consumed about 288,000 tons of pesticides per year conditioned in about 107,000,000 packing with weight of approximately 23,000 tons. The discharge of empty plastic packing of pesticides can be an environmental concern causing problems to human health, animals, and plants if done without inspection and monitoring. The objective of this work is to study the ionizing radiation effect in the main pesticides used in Brazil for plastic packing decontamination. Among the commercial pesticides, chlorpyrifos has significant importance because of its wide distribution and extensive use and persistence. The radiation-induced degradation of chlorpyrifos in liquid samples and in polyethylene pack was studied by gamma radiolysis. Packing of high-density polyethylene (HDPE) three layer coextruded, named COEX, contaminated with chlorpyrifos, were irradiated using both a multipurpose Co-60 gamma irradiator and a gamma source with 5000 Ci total activity Gamma cell type. The chemical analysis of the chlorpyrifos was made using a gas chromatography associated to the Mass Spectrometry—GCMS from Shimadzu Model QP 5000. Gamma radiation was efficient for removing chlorpyrifos from the plastic packing, in all studied cases.' >>I have yet to see any data that would lead any reasonable observer to speculate about a two-stage process, where immune systems are compromised by some "root cause" and an otherwise non-fatal pathogen delivers the coup de grace. Right. The science of evaluating the optimum immune system of bees is largely unexplored. [The fact does not make it non-existant.] Parallels to the human immune system can be drawn though. And the immune system of humans is influenced by stress (www.mayoclinic.com/health/stress/SR00001). Being constantly in a fight or flight mode from stress will unbalance your hormones, health, immune response etc. Why would it be different for bees? >>I'm really getting a little tired of speculation about a "root cause" that does nothing but allow those with an agenda to condemn "modern beekeeping" or "modern agriculture" as "misguided". I don't like pigeon-holing people into some 'agenda-driven camp,' Jim. That is not fair. Everyone is entitled to an opinion. This is a discussion forum and ccd is still unsolved. Any opinion on ccd from people who have not witnessed ccd is basically opinion/speculation/hypothesis. >>...if you want to condemn "commercial beekeeping" in general, you'd first have to show us that all hives, or at least the majority in "commercial beekeeping" are suffering from the problem, and showing the same symptoms. I have not condemned commercial beekeeping. Some practices may not be optimum when applied in commercial or hobby settings though. >>There's only one little problem here. You have no way to measure "the immune system", nor do you have any way to make even a relative qualitative comparison between one hive and another, or one bee and another in terms of "immune system". Agreed but... Take any apiary with a good number of hives, go from hive to hive, and you are bound to see differences in vigor. Since bee immune system science is unsophisticated, we can only use the methods available to us. >>Phrases like "bringing back the immune system" are the language of the snake oil salesman, and the late-night infomercial peddlers of herbal nutritional supplements. Well, no. Don't go by informationals, go by science. Read what the National Cancer Institute thinks about boosting the immune system. If chemotherapy and radiation for cancer weaken the human immune system, pesticides in the hive can weaken the bees' immune system. Waldemar ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 21:41:05 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Bob_Harrison?= Subject: Re: dumping on reporters Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello All, Is this the reporter which linked Albert E. to CCD in March 2007? These kinds of articles with quotes from the CCD team (based at the time on little actual facts) stired up the world. http://news.independent.co.uk/environment/wildlife/article2314202.ece Are the "quotes" from the article clues to his sources? bob ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 21:46:47 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Bob_Harrison?= Subject: Re: New CCD data Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello All, News from the front lines. All the hives in the Hackenberg experiment ended up with similar problems and are in trouble. The report I received said the study would have been better if some of the packages had been hived on new equipment as a control. bob ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 23:08:40 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Bob_Harrison?= Subject: bee paralysis Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello All, Bee paralysis has been around a long time. Some researchers and beekeepers believe no cure for the worse of the virus (PMS) would be found. A key to bee paralysis was found by me on page 210 of the 32nd. issue of ABC XYZ of beekeeping published in 1962 long ago. Many reading have got a copy. Could remains of the F.R. Beuhne ( Tooberac, Australia ) line of italians be still around. Mr. Beuhne was one of the most extensive beekeepers of that country so could tolerance of bee paralysis virus ( or most virus) be widespread in Australian bees? quote page 211: "By killing off the queens and introducing his own stock he cured the disease." (fifty queens in test) Also: "Repeated tests have shown that paralysis is never transmitted by the brood or combs , but that it is carried by the dead or sick bees" I do not know the way Mr. Beuhne came to the above conclusion or what tests he ran. Can Australian beekeepers on BEE-L fill in the blanks and provide further information on Mr. Beuhne? bob ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 20:05:53 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: queenbee Subject: Re: bee paralysis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob wrote > Many reading have got a copy. Could remains of the F.R. Beuhne ( Tooberac, > Australia ) line of italians be still around. Mr. Beuhne was one of the > most extensive beekeepers of that country so could tolerance of bee > paralysis virus ( or most virus) be widespread in Australian bees? > > quote page 211: > "By killing off the queens and introducing his own stock he cured the > disease." (fifty queens in test) FR Beuhne worked for the Victorian Government I think as apiary officer. He wrote a book called the Honey Flora of Victoria in 1922. I think he was around in the 1920's and 30's. So I doubt that there are any of his stock still around. Beekeepers in Victoria tell me they have no problem with paralysis virus nowadays. There are tales from the distant past but none in recent times. If I come across any more will post. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 23:34:58 +1300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: grantredshaw Subject: Fw: [BEE-L] New Zealand Manuka Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill Truesdell said > If you google methylglyxol you find that it might be a factor in a >variety > of health problems, especially at the concentrations noted.It is > interesting that subcutaneous application does cause cancer. It is important to note it is dietary methylglyoxal in manuka honey formed in the nectar of the manuka plant. There is no evidence at all to suggest this is any harm to human health in fact all the available evidence strongly suggests it is a benefit. Currently there is no explanation for why it forms in different at different levels in manuka honey. This is an interesting subject of future research. Now the compound is known it is only the beginning of finding different health applications for it. Further research is needed before substantive conclusions can be drawn outside anti-bacterial applications. Methylglyoxal is a glycation compound. In 2006 an International Workshop was held in Naples to examine all the scientific literature (including those found in a google search) showing the relationship between glycation compounds and their effect on human health. These people were international scientific experts in glycation compounds from biology, chemistry and medical backgrounds. The main conclusion was there was no conclusive evidence that glycation compounds had an adverse effect on human health. This was because the conclusions in the scientific publications were limited because amongst other reasons: 1. the measurement methods for methylglyoxal were not reliable; 2. methylglyoxal was examined in isolation and the science did not consider how it works in reality in the human body; 3. the studies were one dimensional whereas a multi-disciplinary approach is necessary since the interactions require expertise from chemistry, biology and medical research. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 23:38:57 +1300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: grantredshaw Subject: Fw: [BEE-L] New Zealand Manuka Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit deknow said > ...which to me reads, "at this point, we have no data or evidence to > suggest that honey (even our honey with trademarked "factors") has > anything to do with the effectiveness of manuka honey, but that it is due > to the presence of methlygloyoxal, and we also have no data to suggest > that methlygloyoxal on it's own, or added to other honey wouldn't be just > as effective". The key discovery in the Henle research is that methylglyoxal is responsible for the non-peroxide or reliable anti-bacterial activity in manuka honey. This factor is what has made the honey well-known for its health benefits. The paper also shows synthetic methylglyoxal is also anti-bacterial and if added to common honey can provide the reliable anti-bacterial activity. This is why Manuka Health has developed testing procedures able to identify the difference between natural methylglyoxal compared to "added" methylglyoxal in honey. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 05:05:50 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: Starch Boosts Antifungal Activity of Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Starch Boosts Antifungal Activity of Honey Additive Action of Honey and Starch Against Candida Albicans and Aspergillus Niger Rev Iberoam Micol, 2007; 24:309-311 http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/2008/01/starch-boosts-antifungal-activity-of.html A comparative method of adding honey to culture media with and without starch was used to evaluate the action of starch on the antifungal activity of honey... ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 07:13:59 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John & Christy Horton Subject: New CCD data MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob wrote: > Hello All, > News from the front lines. All the hives in the Hackenberg experiment > ended up with similar problems and are in trouble. The report I received > said the study would have been better if some of the packages had been > hived on new equipment as a control. Bob, since you seem to be close to the "thick" of things, I wonder what it would hurt to suggest that several of the hives of bees be moved to fresh comb RIGHT NOW. John Horton ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 08:30:40 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Griggs Mike Subject: Re: Behavior Induced by Parasites Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v915) Following this thread of how parasites affect there host is quite interesting. It has been know for a long time that certain Insect pathogenic fungi cause "new" behaviors in infected hosts. For example one Entomaphaga grilli, a fungi that infects grasshoppers, causes the infected host to climb. The infected grasshoppers end up climbing & slowing down until many dead sporulating grasshoppers are waving around on blades of grass above a field. This behavior assists the spread of new fungal spores as they rain down from above. It is quite spectacular to see a field of grasshopper cadavers covering the tall grass of a field that is undergoing an epizootic. Now it is thought that maybe the sick insects, feeling sick, try to orient to the sun to eliminate the infection by basking. This has been shown because the elevated temperature is not advantageous to the fungus & assists the grasshoppers immune system to overcome the infection. We still have a long way to go to really understand host/pathogen/ parasite interactions & how insects can detect & interact with themselves & their environment. I'm betting that there is a lot more there than we think! Mike ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 13:48:08 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "deknow@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Fw: [BEE-L] New Zealand Manuka Honey Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit -- grantredshaw wrote: The paper also shows synthetic methylglyoxal is also anti-bacterial and if added to common honey can provide the reliable anti-bacterial activity. >>>my reading (which may have been only a summary, and not the whole paper) did not claim that they had any data to suggest that honey was even involved in the benefits...they speculated that it might, but didn't offer any data. This is why Manuka Health has developed testing procedures able to identify the difference between natural methylglyoxal compared to "added" methylglyoxal in honey. >>>mmmm, just like the previous "standard" (UMF), they developed testing procedures and a trademarked grading system so that only they can provide "certified" honey. this is marketing, not science. even if they can tell the differance between "naturally occuring" methylglyoxal in honey and honey "fortified" with the substance (this is your claim, i didn't get this from what i read), the paper didn't offer any data that the former is more effective than the latter. deknow ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 11:11:47 -0500 Reply-To: james.fischer@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Decontamination of pesticide packing using ionizing radiation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Contrary to assertions made that gamma radiation does > not affect pesticides Nothing of the sort was asserted. What was explained was that gamma radiation AT THE EXPOSURE LEVELS USED in the specific type of facility employed would have a negligible effect on pesticides, even pesticides that are designed to "break down in sunlight". Yes, if you massively increased the exposure to the beam by several thousand times, you'd start to break down pesticides. But which chemical bonds would break down first in the beam? The wax, the wood, or the pesticides? To grock the scale of difference, understand that irradiation facilities make their money killing bugs, bacteria, and other pests/pathogens. When stuff is run through the beam, the exposure is >>>calibrated<<< to be sufficient to kill "every living thing" with the usual Bacillus stearothermophilus discs as the proof. On the other hand, when the pesticide makers talk about "UV exposure" and "sunlight breakdown" of their pesticides, they talk about how many HOURS of continuous sun exposure it takes to render their pesticide "harmless". So, given that sunlight UV flux is several thousand times that of the gamma flux, and we've got hours and hours of exposure to that UV flux required to break apart the pesticide chemical bonds versus a few minutes (or even mere seconds) of gamma exposure in a typical "irradiation" pass to kill anything alive, we are talking about a massive difference in the number of photons per unit time over the same area, with either type of photon powerful enough to break apart the pesticide molecules. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 09:06:25 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Fw: [BEE-L] New Zealand Manuka Honey In-Reply-To: <005701c86199$6e7bd940$0e4536d2@yourvrozpt3zvx> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit grantredshaw wrote: > The main conclusion was there was no conclusive evidence that glycation > compounds had an adverse effect on human health. This was because the > conclusions in the scientific publications were limited because amongst > other reasons: My point. The jury is not yet in. Add that the touted difference is the very high level of methylglyoxal in the honey, about 7 time that in coffee and much higher than "normal" honey or other foods. When you get into the world of harmful chemicals in foods, there are a bunch. The onion would not pass an FDA test because of the number of carcinogens. Most tests involve much higher levels of the suspected chemical and do not always transpose to the real world. However, with Manuka honey, you are already in elevated concentrations compared to most all other food. Most of the science I have seen on methylglyoxal involves much lower concentrations. Even then, there are questions. So as noted, there is still much more to look at before you can say there are no problems. Prudence is the only point I am making. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 11:53:20 -0500 Reply-To: james.fischer@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: New CCD data MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> (As I explained, the gamma radiation is not going to impact >> pesticides on the combs at all.) > A fellow Bee-L-er... offered a couple tidbits of info to the > contrary. Yes, one could use MASSIVE amounts of radiation and break down pesticides, but this would only be possible at several THOUSAND times the exposure levels used in the CCD-related experiment cited. > The science of evaluating the optimum immune system of bees is > largely unexplored. So you must agree that any further claims about bee immune systems would be nothing by additional pure speculation, and therefore, unproductive. > Parallels to the human immune system can be drawn though. Even though the entire subject is largely unexplored? What level of romantic anthropomorphism is required to draw complex connections of this sort between insects and mammals? > And the immune system of humans is influenced by stress... > Why would it be different for bees? We have no idea what "stress" is for bees, so go back to square one, and define what you want to call "stress". When you have something we can measure, we will discuss it. > Everyone is entitled to an opinion. Of course everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but everyone is NOT entitled to their own facts. > If chemotherapy and radiation for cancer weaken the human > immune system, pesticides in the hive can weaken the bees' > immune system. There is no basis in fact to make the comparison made above, as comparing insects to humans is a very big jump. Yes, pesticides can be bad for insects, as most pesticides target insects. And my basic point was that the irradiation would NOT have "decontaminated" the combs in terms of pesticides. Pathogens certainly were eliminated. What Bob is mentioned about Dave Hackenberg's hives seems to conflict with the "70% survival" cited by the Penn State/ USDA group, so now I'm wondering if calibration of the gamma beam was even done. ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 12:31:17 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Steve_Noble?= Subject: Re: New CCD data Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Waldamar wrote: “That was my point! Irradiated comb will give colonies a sort of a head start/ temporary respite by knocking off all [good and bad] organisms.” Good organisms? Really? I suppose it’s possible. Any evidence that such things exist on old comb and equipment? What do they do? Steve Noble ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 18:13:40 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Can anyone help remove a bee colony in Richmond (San Francisco ) area? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit This consciouses person is trying to save these bees. Is someone out there doing removals in the San Francisco area? The email address and phone number are in the text of the message below. Waldemar ========================== I am at the Richmond Field Station (part of UC Berkeley property but up the highway towards Richmond on the water), you can google the name and get directions. I opened up some of the holes which they sealed to try and entomb the bees on Saturday. There were around seven that came out but the weather was cold so if it heats up there will be more I am certain. They are European Honey Bees. You can phone me to discuss this further at 510 861 4620. ======================== >>I have a hive in the wall of my art studio, the facilities people sealed the out side of the wall and powdered it with pesticides with out my knowledge. The bees that were not affected are now flooding my studio starving (I think). Is there anyone who could remove the remainder of the hive and nurse them back to health? please contact me at reneedelores@hotmail.com ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 20:51:43 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Gavin Ramsay Subject: Re: Decontamination of pesticide packing using ionizing radiation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Jim and All > Yes, one could use MASSIVE amounts of radiation and > break down pesticides, but this would only be possible > at several THOUSAND times the exposure levels used in > the CCD-related experiment cited. >From my reading (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) a typical dose of food gamma irradiation would be of the order of 10kGy (kilo Grays). Was that what they used in the CCD experiment? The paper I cited (1) says that 100 kGy removed dioxins in solution so that liquid wastes did not exhibit dioxin toxicity. It is not just the photons themselves that break chemical bonds, but radicals generated from the solvent also cause an effect, amplifying the decay. So are you sure that it would take several thousand times the exposure level in the CCD experiments to make much impact on the level of pesticides present? From my reading of the topic (which is limited, I'll admit) the medium in which the compound finds itself is crucial to the decay characteristics. I can't see anyone knowing exactly how compounds will behave in or on comb until they try it out and measure the result. all the best Gavin (1) http://tinyurl.com/2ytbua ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 18:18:04 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: New CCD data In-Reply-To: <000101c861ce$4ae15de0$0201000a@j> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James Fischer wrote: > What Bob is mentioned about Dave Hackenberg's hives seems to > conflict with the "70% survival" cited by the Penn State/ > USDA group, so now I'm wondering if calibration of the gamma > beam was even done. Which is why I asked the question on who measured what. My understanding was that the 70% vs 50% was more seat of the pants than any actual measurement, and even then, it was only preliminary. So all the discussion may be moot, since we are discussing very suspect data regardless of the amount of gamma radiation. In this whole CCD business there seems to be a lot of good and very bad science and it is difficult to sort it out. I would take most of what comes from the Jerry B camp as good. I consider everything else suspect, mostly because of what I perceive as agendas ("I know the cause now I will prove it."). Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 20:29:20 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: New CCD data Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Re: radiation of bee combs. I remember back in the 1980s a large scale beekeeper in San Diego told me that after irradiating combs, bees seemed to do better on them (than they would on regular combs). He felt that old combs must contain a lot of deleterious substances -- viruses, fungi, microsporidians, who knows what? But I don't think irradiation is really cost effective. Better to melt down the old combs and start with new. Many people are trying to replace combs much more frequently. Old timers (like me) tend to look at old combs as an asset, but if they harbor malignant organisms, maybe we are better off replacing them. I know how hard it is to get good combs drawn out, but one has to look at the advantage of clean combs pb ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 20:23:46 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.net" Subject: Re: New CCD data Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > The science of evaluating the optimum immune system of bees is > largely unexplored. So you must agree that any further claims about bee immune systems would be nothing by additional pure speculation, and therefore, unproductive. Sorry, Jim, but I can't. :) It's not pure speculation. It's a research direction that may quite possibly prove very productive. The USDA formulated their CCD action plan last July (www.ars.usda.gov/is/pr/2007/070713.htm). As for ccd and possible immune system weakening, the USDA thinks the insights from fruit flys can help the honey bee research (December '07). Check out the following USDA news release from December 07 at http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:FEpA0kBvg44J:www.ars.usda.gov/is/pr/2007/071207.htm+honey+bee+immune+system&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=4&gl=us (Either google for it or copy the entire link address). Here is an excerpt: 'The fruit fly, Drosophila, is often used as a model organism in genetic studies. The researchers analysed immune genes in the 12 fly species and report that the study offers insights into the immune system of honey bees, a valuable pollinator beset by a variety of problems, including the highly publicized colony collapse disorder (CCD). The analysis of the immunity-related genes in Drosophila was done by entomologist Jay Evans at the ARS Bee Research Laboratory in Beltsville, Md., and researchers at Cornell University in Ithaca, N.Y.; Emory University in Atlanta, Ga.; and Umea University in Umea, Sweden. The study was published recently in Nature Genetics.' >>> Parallels to the human immune system can be drawn though. Even though the entire subject is largely unexplored? What level of romantic anthropomorphism is required to draw complex connections of this sort between insects and mammals? See above. I will not argue with you like this, Jim. Let me just say that if the ARS scientists at the USDA consider it worthwhile then I find it reasonable, too. > And the immune system of humans is influenced by stress... > Why would it be different for bees? We have no idea what "stress" is for bees, so go back to square one, and define what you want to call "stress". When you have something we can measure, we will discuss it. Google 'stress+honey bees' and you'll come acroos at least a few scientific studies. I call stress any factor or a combination of factors that overwhelmingly tip the natural range of balance in a bee's system. Examples: cold/heat, toxic chemicals, malnutrition, agents of disease, etc. If you are keen on measuremnets, how about doing an experiment where you'd compare the JH titers levels in healthy colonies and colonies that apparently succumbed to ccd? >>Of course everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but everyone is NOT entitled to their own facts. Where did I say I was stating my own facts? >>And my basic point was that the irradiation would NOT have "decontaminated" the combs in terms of pesticides. Pathogens certainly were eliminated. That's a shortcoming in the design of this experiment since comb contamination has been shown to cause problems in the function of queens and drones (and why would you think it has no affect on workers?). The DOE does not seem to identify comb contamination as a possible root cause and it should have included comb contamination as a control variable to evaluate. (Unless the folks were short on funds/time, and selected only variables that seemed most probable to them.) >>What Bob is mentioned about Dave Hackenberg's hives seems to conflict with the "70% survival" cited by the Penn State/ USDA group, so now I'm wondering if calibration of the gamma beam was even done. The equipment used in any experiments should be calibrated to the proper standards with an accuracy of at least 4:1. I guess we can agree that this experiment did not (has not) established any *facts*? Waldemar ****************************************************** * Full guidelines for BEE-L posting are at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm * ******************************************************