From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 11:11:42 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-83.4 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,ADVANCE_FEE_2, ALL_NATURAL,AWL,MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7919349098 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 11:03:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SG3Y7G017265 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 11:03:40 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 11:03:35 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0802C" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 223001 Lines: 5054 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 22:42:09 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Darrell Subject: Re: Imidacloprid vs organophosphates In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 14-Feb-08, at 12:01 PM, Brian Fredericksen wrote: > I was surprised to hear that fluvalinate and coumaphous would > degrade in a rendering operation. > Can anyone comment on that? > > Hi Brian and all Some years ago, before Checkmite was approved in Canada, coumaphous was detected in some product(I think honey but am not sure). The source was tracked down to plastic frames that were coated with wax in the US before being imported. I remember the story but not the details. Maybe someone can fill in the gaps. Bob Darrell Caledon Ontario Canada 44N80W **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 00:06:39 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: Imidacloprid vs organophosphates In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Queens are reared in their own, freshly drawn, cells. Granted there may be >a degree of recycling of wax within the hive, but even so, the new queens are >likely to have cradles much less contaminated than their plebeian sisters. I've found it can vary significantly depending on the nectar flow or if you are feeding the cell builder. In general you probably don't get much wax reuse in queen cells, but at times during the year the queen cells are significantly darker indicating that wax reuse was likely. We shouldn't forget the other half of puzzle. Drones are often raised in the old damaged comb that should have been melted down years ago and we don't know how susceptible they may be to most of these chemicals. We already know that coumaphos, fluvalinate, and Apilife VAR have a significant negative effect on viability and/or quantity of sperm. ( http://scholar.lib.vt.edu/theses/available/etd-08162007-092313/ ) Could this have a noticeable impact on the queens reared both during and for several weeks after a spring varroa treatment? I believe they've also shown that comb with acceptable levels of contamination by coumaphos also causes similar drone problems. -Tim **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 23:28:35 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Winter bees (was Imidacloprid vs organophosphates) In-Reply-To: <7eb65cc10802141800j2f80612cw3b1b448290097612@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Juanse & All, > you mean 21 x 4 days? Yes. starting the count on which date? In our area the bees normally shut down after the summer flow and we see mainly only enough brood raised to support the hive. However the population drops rapidly after the summer flow and the queen seems ok with the drop in numbers. As the days get shorter you see the bees crank up brood rearing. These are the winter bees fed the extra royal jelly. in my opinion most Midwest bees start raising winter bees around the same time and through out the yard. I pick several hives to monitor. When I see the increase of egg laying I start the count. Its fun to watch from one day to the next. The queen goes from a small oval of brood to full frames of eggs almost overnight at times. Kind of like a switch was turned on! Both years of drought the bees started later in fall and only raised two cycles before the bees shut back down for winter. Even Italians will restrict brood rearing under fall drought conditions. At first I thought the reason was the lack of pollen but I fed pollen patties (made with real pollen/substitute) and still only 2 cycles. A rough count can be made right before winter in the Midwest as 8-10 frames of bees are about 2 cycles plus left over summer bees and 4 cycles is around 18-20 frames (loose cluster) including the left over summer bees. The researchers I have spoke with say the "winter bees" will live up to 120 days and the summer bees fed as bees do in the summer will be dead by spring if not much sooner. Hope the above helps and I would love to hear others methods and opinions on this little discussed subject of beekeeping. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Missouri > > thanks > > -- > Juanse Barros J. > APIZUR S.A. > Carrera 695 > Gorbea - CHILE > +56-45-271693 > 08-3613310 > http://apiaraucania.blogspot.com/ > juanseapi@gmail.com > > **************************************************** > * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * > * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * > **************************************************** > > -- > This message has been scanned for viruses and > dangerous content by MailScanner, and is > believed to be clean. > -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 20:07:54 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: skim milk for early spring feed In-Reply-To: <896851.67787.qm@web53104.mail.re2.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline >use fresh skim milk as a pollen substitute? Be concerned about the lactose in the milk, which can be toxic to bees. Milk casein, or the no-longer-available Wheast were fine. I agree with Aaron for the small beekeeper--there are excellent proprietary products available. Randy Oliver **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 06:28:29 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Plaisted Subject: Re: skim milk for early spring feed In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable My only problem with commercial pollen patties is they tend to be runny. I= have started preparing my own, and I can make them a bit "stiffer", and he= nce they don't run as much when placed in the hives. But, that's just me..= LOL.Jimhttp://www.northernqueens.com/ _________________________________________________________________ Shed those extra pounds with MSN and The Biggest Loser! http://biggestloser.msn.com/= **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 07:41:19 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: Imidacloprid vs organophosphates Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Tim Arheit wrote: >>http://scholar.lib.vt.edu/theses/available/etd-08162007-092313/ I had not seen this study before and found it to be quite an eye opener. However, it must be kept in mind that while these miticides have a negative on bee colonies, the parasites against which they are used are much worse for the colony. Miticides don't kill colonies, and without these treatments, I suspect that beekeeping would have almost disappeared by now, at least in Northern climates. So, before we blame all our problems on miticides don't forget the negative effect of the parasites themselves: > "Decreased flight performance and sperm production in drones of the honey bee (Apis mellifera) slightly infested by Varroa destructor mites during pupal development" by Pedro Duay, David De Jong and Wolf Engels > ABSTRACT. We developed a bioassay to measure the flying power of drone, in order to determine which drones could reach a drone congregation area. ... Drones parasitized with one mite flew as long as control drones; however, those that had been infested by two mites flew significantly less. ... Drones infested during development with one or two mites produced 24 and 45% fewer sperm, respectively. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 08:11:25 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Griggs Mike Subject: Re: Wintering mite behaviour Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v919.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit an_Steppler?= wrote: >I am wondering, how would a fellow go about and observe the behavour and >habbits of wintering mites in a colony? It would be a tough couple of years on a grad student in a walk in freezer! MIke **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 05:17:27 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Grant Gillard Subject: Re: skim milk for early spring feed In-Reply-To: <896851.67787.qm@web53104.mail.re2.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Years ago, as a smaller beekeeper with a background in animal nutrition, I too, tried to reinvent the wheel with respect to protein alternatives. If you can work the math, it's not that hard. But buying small increments of ingredients was not cost effective. However, as a small beekeeper subsidizing my operation through my real job, costs were not that important and I was having fun experimenting. As my hive numbers increased and my hobby started becoming economically sustainable, my available time became the real issue. I just didn't have the time to mess around with making my own protein supplements. And I had to find a time my wife was going to be away for an extended period of time so I could get the kitchen cleaned up before her return. Beekeeping is also becoming increasingly complicated. We're discovering more information on critical micronutrients and amino acids that unlock the digestibility of other nutrients. Every day we learn more about nutritional stress and how it interacts with disease. A couple of years ago I decided it was time to bite the bullet, pay the shipping charges, put my trust in the hands of the experts and buy a commercially-prepared protein alternative. I only have so much time and energy (both of which seem to be shrinking every year) and I need to focus on other aspects of my expanding business. I run between 100 and 150 hives depending on the time of year and still hold a full-time "real" job. As a factor of time management, I had to delegate/out-source my protein needs. I went through a similar series of gyrations with respect to equipment only to return to the conventions of the 10-frame Langstroth. If you're interested, I put my experiences into a manuscript I've titled, "Beekeeping With Twenty-five Hives." Contact me off-list for the details. Grant Jackson, MO --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 07:23:48 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John & Christy Horton Subject: Winter bees-Comment for Bob Harrison MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob wrote: The researchers I have spoke with say the "winter bees" will live up to 120 > days and the summer bees fed as bees do in the summer will be dead by > spring > if not much sooner. > > Hope the above helps and I would love to hear others methods and opinions > on > this little discussed subject of beekeeping. > Bob, I think it would be a fascinating experiment to color code(or number) bees at staggered intervals during the fall-perhaps even in an observation hive(s) You could monitor later in the year or the next year. If you or anybody else has any comments on this I also would love to hear. I have number 2 daughter working bees w/me for awhile and she loves this kind of stuff, and would be an eager assistant for a well designed experiment.Frankly it sounds like fun. I bet Mr Oliver would have some good comments on this. John Horton **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 05:36:08 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: skim milk for early spring feed In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline James Plaisted wrote: > My only problem with commercial pollen patties is they tend to be runny. That's interesting to me, James, as the commercial patties that I've seen are stiffer than I prefer! I like them to be soft enough to squash easily between the bottom bars, yet not be runny. Randy Oliver **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 08:04:23 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Winter bees (was Imidacloprid vs organophosphates) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, I did the post late last night and did not notice you said 21 x 4 days. I am sure you meant four complete 21 day cycles but thought I better clarify. A cycle is the time it takes for the first winter bee eggs to hatch. 42 days for two cycles. 84 days for 4 cycles. bob -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 06:40:12 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Runny commercial patties In-Reply-To: <3dcef4a10802150536j4579e8b2i8c96ccbece4e34da@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit randy oliver wrote: James Plaisted wrote: > My only problem with commercial pollen patties is they tend to be >runny. .... the commercial patties that I've seen are stiffer than I prefer! Randy Oliver Maybe temperature differences. Colder - stiffer; Warmer - runnier Mike in LA --------------------------------- Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 09:41:28 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Plaisted Subject: Re: skim milk for early spring feed In-Reply-To: <3dcef4a10802150536j4579e8b2i8c96ccbece4e34da@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The last batch of bee pro patties I bought last spring turned into a runny = mess once in the hives. During cooler weather they were ok, but once outsi= de temps hit the 50's it got quite messy. There was no problem squashing t= hese between the bottom bars. =20 Jimhttp://www.northernqueens.com/> > "I like them to be soft enough to> squ= ash easily between the bottom bars, yet not be runny."> > Randy Oliver> > *= ***************************************************> * General Information = About BEE-L is available at: *> * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/defaul= t.htm *> **************************************************** _________________________________________________________________ Climb to the top of the charts!=A0Play the word scramble challenge with sta= r power. http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?icid=3Dstarshuffle_wlmailtextlink_ja= n= **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 09:28:23 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Charles Harper Subject: Re: Runny commercial patties In-Reply-To: <674138.98157.qm@web53404.mail.re2.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit SHB love runny patties triggers egg laying. Firm patties to hard patties does not seem to trigger egg laying. Harper's Honey Farm Charles Harper charlie@russianbreeder.org labeeman@russianbreeder.com (337) 298 6261 **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 11:32:07 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: Imidacloprid vs organophosphates In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 07:41 AM 2/15/2008, Peter Borst wrote: >I had not seen this study before and found it to be quite an eye opener. >However, it must be kept in mind that while these miticides have a negative >on bee colonies, the parasites against which they are used are much worse >for the colony. Neither the disease or cure are good for the Drones and sperm production or viability of the sperm. But it seems to me with this information on the effects of both, that one should be careful when timing treatments as well as monitor to determine if treatments worked and if a hive needs treated at a time earlier than planned. It seems that a balanced approach is needed to minimized the negative effect of both the mites and the mitacides. It makes a good argument to me that treatment in the fall after queen rearing has ceased is much preferable than spring treatments when drones are being reared for production. Of course there is a threshold where the effect of mites exceeds that of the treatment, but one won't know when they have reached that point without monitoring. -Tim **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 12:04:48 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: skim milk for early spring feed Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In ‘The Hive and the Honey Bee’, skim milk is listed as an ingredient for one recipe for making pollen substitute. Elsewhere in the same book, mention is made that lactose is bad for bees. Cream of tartar is often recommended for mixing with sugar candy. A recipe appearing in THATHB gives such a recipe. Diana Sammataro, in her book ‘The Beekeeper’s Handbook’, also gives directions for mixing cream of tartar in sugar candy. Yet just a few pages later, she writes that it may be bad for bees and it’s use is no longer recommended. It get’s a little confusing sometimes, doesn’t it? Regards, Dick Allen **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 16:24:07 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: honeybees and mating disrupters Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Excerpt from the article "The state agriculture department plans to use airplanes at night this summer to spray a farm pesticide over urban San Francisco, Marin County and the East Bay, intending to eradicate a potentially destructive moth" http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/02/15/MN99V2PMN.DTL&tsp=1 and the manufacturer http://www.suterra.com/.docs/rid/10007/pg/press_releases.html Mating disrupters target the pheromones of a specific pest. Can't help but wonder if there is a risk to pollinators. As a commercial apple grower I know that typically these materials are used in organic operations as a replacement for insecticides and used well after bloom. This kind of large spray program may be unprecedented for an urban area. I wonder if anyone ever looked at any impacts to pollinators? How can they be sure that only the target pests pheromones are affected? **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 07:52:14 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: queenbee Subject: Catch the Buzz MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Kim wrote in the latest Catch the Buzz - Bee Culture Magazine First With = The Story. Next...What Importer Bought The Honey? What Did They Know, = And When Did They Know It? Stay Tuned! At the time this happened I recall that the Australian Authorities = advised the USA Authorities and it was a bit of a joint operation. So = it may also pay to ask who the USA Authorities advised and what they did = with the information they received and what the USA Authorities did with = the product. Did they let it through? Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 18:32:24 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: GMO based sugar syrup blend coming next Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit We've had a choice for bee feed, a mostly GMO based corn syrup ( HFCS ) or a non GMO based sugar blend typically based from sugar beets (sugar blend also has HFCS added) FWIW, starting this season GMO sugar beets will be grown in my region MN, Nodak. Another related change is the EPA increased the allowable amount of glyphosate (the active ingredient in Roundup) residues on sugar beet roots by a whopping 5000% at the time USDA allowed the growing of GMO sugar beets. http://www.npr.org/templates/s.....d=18817571 http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11.....amp;st=nyt "It would be the first new type of genetically engineered food crop widely grown since the 1990s, when biotech soybeans, corn and a few other crops entered the market." Of course like some of the other Ag related changes we face as beekeepers our government has assured us that this is no big deal and conventional sugar beet sugar is no different then non-GMO sugar beet sugar. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 19:24:58 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: GMO based sugar syrup blend coming next MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Seems like another good reason to let your bees live on their own stores! Chris **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 08:55:42 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Wintering mite behaviour In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > how would a fellow go about and observe the behavour and > >habbits of > wintering mites in a colony? You would have to use an indoor winter facility (like is used in Canada) which maintains the temperature in the 40F. range (just enough controlled temp to keep the bees quiet and in cluster). Some would allow you to pull frames and do tests. In a small hive homemade scenario in the north you could maybe raise the temp for a few hours to say 50F. Setting these type operations up is not easy as there are ventilation and humidity issues. Several commercial beekeepers from Canada on BEE-L use these type winter bee houses. Allen Dick liked to winter outside but was an expert on the ways to set up. I miss his expertise on BEE-L. I know what the bee books say but I have had lots of success not doing everything many say. If no wind we pull frames and check bees in dead of winter when in the 50F. range. The frame is not out long. I have made splits in 50F. weather and worked bees in a light rain but with rain you need a higher temp. in the 60F. range. if you keep bees for a living you can not always wait for the perfect day to work your bees. Wind speed and direction need figured in a decision to pull frames in winter. Breaking the seal is never good in early winter but in my opinion is not so critical this time of year in the Midwest. Lifting the lid and looking at the entrance this time of year is usually enough but we always want to check at least a few hives to see the amount of brood. bob -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 09:59:14 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lesli Sagan Subject: Re: Wintering mite behaviour In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline We really need wireless infrared cameras the bees won't propolize. On Fri, Feb 15, 2008 at 8:11 AM, Griggs Mike wrote: > > It would be a tough couple of years on a grad student in a walk in > freezer! > > -- ***************************** Lesli Sagan lesli.sagan@gmail.com **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 10:08:03 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Ian_Steppler?= Subject: Re: Wintering mite behaviour Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I live in a walk in freezer!!:) Seems like it this year anyway. The advantage I would have is an indoor wintering room, to be able to access the hives easily. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 20:08:47 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Ian_Steppler?= Subject: Re: GMO based sugar syrup blend coming next Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Not sure I see the significance of this. Where has there been any adulteration to HFCS that was produced with GMO cropping practices? It will be no different with sugar beets. Of all the chemicals to be applied on our agricultural fields, Roundup or its generics is probably the one that would be prefered. There are many other chemicals used today that roundup is replacing that are far worse for environmental reasons and applicator safty. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 20:18:42 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Walter Zimmermann Subject: BEE-L] Amitraz / Amivar MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Has anyone else looked at the site provided It's been educational and it stands to reason that perhaps we all should perhaps use the stuff Walter **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 21:51:42 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: GMO based sugar syrup blend coming next MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Roundup & Bees I have used Roundup right next to bee hives for years and have seen no effects on them. The label claims that it is harmless to bees, and so it seems. If they are not affected by direct application in the field, then minuscule amounts in syrup would not be worrisome. > A field study was conducted to investigate the effects of aerial application on honey bee hives (* Burgett and Fisher 1990). Bee hives and blooming vegetation in the immediate vicinity (1.5 acres) were treated at a rate of about 5% Roundup in 60 gal of water (6 lbs a.e./acre or 6.8 kg a.e./ha). No acute or chronic effects were observed for adult honey bees or for brood production. These findings were further supported by conducting direct feeding trials in the field. * Burgett, Michael and Fisher, G. 1990. A review of the Belizean honey bee industry: Final report prepared at the request of The Belize Honey Producers Federation. Department of Entomology, Oregon State University, Corvallis, Oregon. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 19:25:20 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: skim milk for early spring feed In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Dick said: > It get's a little confusing sometimes, doesn't it? Yes it does! And let's not even go into whether salt is good or bad for bees! Randy Oliver **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 01:27:46 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juanse Barros Subject: Re: Imidacloprid vs organophosphates In-Reply-To: <200802151628.m1FGSasL067430@mail.watchtv.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Other way of working is to have a groups of colonies for drone production, these ones are well treated before drone production starts, then no more treatment. Same for queen production. Those colonies are treated well in advance, and then are not treated. Those colonies that are not used for multiplication are treated when need. -- Juanse Barros J. APIZUR S.A. Carrera 695 Gorbea - CHILE +56-45-271693 08-3613310 http://apiaraucania.blogspot.com/ juanseapi@gmail.com **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 01:45:25 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juanse Barros Subject: Re: Winter bees (was Imidacloprid vs organophosphates) In-Reply-To: <33BD99837B4D4DBBBF3325E50BB866BF@bobPC> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Bob H said: A cycle is the time it takes for the first winter bee eggs to hatch. 42 days for two cycles. 84 days for 4 cycles. Yes that what was I meant. To fullfill those 4 cycles - if I understand correct - for your country, you will need to start building your winter population in november. Is that rigth? -- Juanse Barros J. APIZUR S.A. Carrera 695 Gorbea - CHILE +56-45-271693 08-3613310 http://apiaraucania.blogspot.com/ juanseapi@gmail.com **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 20:09:20 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: Imidacloprid vs organophosphates In-Reply-To: <47B48336.4070006@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Bill said > One standard observation from most who rotate comb is how healthy there > bees become after new foundation is introduced. I think you get rid of a > variety of ills, not just pesticide residue. I sure noticed the same thing in my operation this year, Bill, and I don't have any old, dark combs, nor have I used synthetic miticides for several years. I sell so many nucs that I have rapid comb turnover. I also don't have significant pesticide exposure. Yet bees still appear to do better on foundation, as opposed to drawn combs. I'm planning to experiment more along this line. BTW, great post Lloyd, although coumaphos has been detected several times in honey. Randy Oliver **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 10:24:13 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Walter Zimmermann Subject: honeybees and mating disrupters MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just a suggestion to Amesfarm: Contact Dr. Peter Kevan at the University of Guelph here in Ontario he is a World reknown pollination expert working with honeybees someone out there reading this might have his email address Walter **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 13:15:18 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: GMO based sugar syrup blend coming next Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit maybe i'm just paranoid about Monsanto after watching clips like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=trWcqxrQgcc&NR=1 **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 16:04:24 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juanse Barros Subject: Re: skim milk for early spring feed In-Reply-To: <3dcef4a10802151925i5ae4f88fmb2dfb4c291e9429e@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Randy said: And let's not even go into whether salt is good or bad for bees! which part is good and which is bad? Na or Cl As I give my bees HCl, probably Na is the bady? -- Juanse Barros J. APIZUR S.A. Carrera 695 Gorbea - CHILE +56-45-271693 08-3613310 http://apiaraucania.blogspot.com/ juanseapi@gmail.com **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 20:16:21 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: Winter bees-Comment for Bob Harrison In-Reply-To: <000b01c86fd6$00d431d0$54e84cd8@HortonFamily> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > Bob wrote: > The researchers I have spoke with say the "winter bees" will live up to 120 days Bob, there are areas with long winters where winter bees must survive for even longer periods! The main factor appears to be vitellogenin reserves. As soon as a vitellogenin test kit becomes available (a funding request for such has been submitted), we will be able to better predict bee longevity and disease resistance. Randy Oliver **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 12:08:27 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Ian_Steppler?= Subject: Re: GMO based sugar syrup blend coming next Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>Seems like another good reason to let your bees live on their own stores! Is that reason more so based on personal opinion,or actual science? **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 15:58:23 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: skim milk for early spring feed In-Reply-To: <7eb65cc10802161104h4f345965o1ca590fd62d3d595@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Juanse Barros wrote: > As I give my bees HCl, probably Na is the bady? > > > I thought you gave your bees bleach. If so, it is also Na (NaHCl, Sodium Hydrochloride). If I recall correctly, you used bleach for nosema. If I so, what concentrations do you use? HCl is hydrochloric acid, same stuff that is in our stomachs. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 16:12:17 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: vitellogenin In-Reply-To: <3dcef4a10802152016s4501aacdqefe07ca74e472ab3@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Vitellogenin and honey bees Honey bees deposit vitellogenin in fat bodies in their abdomen and heads. The fat bodies apparently acts as a food storage reservoir. The glycolipoprotein vitellogenin has additional functionality as it acts as an antioxidant to prolong Queen bee and forager lifespan as well as a hormone that affects future foraging behavior. [1] The health of a honey bee colony is dependent upon the vitellogenin reserves of the nurse bees - the foragers have low levels of vitellogenin. As expendable laborers the foragers are fed just enough protein to keep them working their risky task of collecting nectar and pollen. Vitellogenin is important during the nest stage and thus for worker division of labor. A nurse bees vitellogenin titer that developed in the first four days after emergence, affects its subsequent age to begin foraging and whether it preferentially forages for nectar or pollen. If young workers are short on food their first days of life, they tend to begin foraging early and preferentially for nectar. If they are moderately fed, they forage at normal age preferentially for nectar. If they are abundantly fed, immediately after emergence, their vitellogenin titer is high and they begin foraging later in life, preferentially collecting pollen, which is the only available protein source for honey bees. The above is from http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Vitellogenin Thanks, Randy. Never heard of it. Saw you as a reference. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 12:39:57 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: joe carson Subject: Re: wintering bees In-Reply-To: <3dcef4a10802152016s4501aacdqefe07ca74e472ab3@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In one of my experimental yards in Western Interior Alaska, I have bees tha= t wintered to -62 F officially and unofficially at -69 F ambient. The bees= are treated with powered sugar and NOZEVIT prior to placing into a hand du= g root cellar approximately 5 foot deep. I put a piece of 2" pvc pipe stic= king out for air. The root cellar is covered with timbers which support sh= eets of metal and then covered with the dirt that was dug from the hole. A= t the entrance of the root cellar there is a piece of plywood about two fee= t below the surface with straw placed on top of it and then another piece o= f plywood for the "lid". I have been placing three hives in the cellar. W= hen treated with powered sugar and fed NOZEVIT, I have had 100% success. W= hen testing, I have tried with and without powered sugar and and with and w= ithout Nozevit. Three years is the longest the bees have lasted without po= wered sugar. Without NOZEVIT I have a about 50% success - with or with out= powered sugar application. Intestinal integrity is of utmost importance f= or me. =20 The bees go into the cellar usually around the first week of October and do= not come out until the last week of April or first week of May, depending = on the snow load, temperature, and their activity coming in and out of the = pvc pipe. Occasionally it is a traffic jam of bees coming and going up and = down the pipe! The only light comes down the pvc tube. The area in the cellar is tight - = no extra space. Literally there is only about 1 to 2 foot around the hives= . We see good honey production and need to leave at least 80# of honey on = the hives. I also use Candy Boards as the top cover(400# sugar and 6 gal. = boiling hot water heated up on wood stove, mixed in an old wringer washing = machine run off a generator). I use no chemicals unless you call powered sugar and NOZEVIT chemicals. NO= ZEVIT is a traditional recipe, all natural herbal from CROATIA. I return to Northern Croatia on Monday to continue my search for wintering = techniques in that area as well as part of the Swiss - Italian - Austrian A= lps. I do not have all the answers but enjoy asking the questions. Dr. Joe Carson Alaska Heavenly Honey **************************** _________________________________________________________________ Shed those extra pounds with MSN and The Biggest Loser! http://biggestloser.msn.com/= **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 19:48:09 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juanse Barros Subject: Re: skim milk for early spring feed In-Reply-To: <47B74E6F.7020104@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline You are rigth I am wrong. I use Hipoclorito de sodio. I am really bad in chem and acronysm Sorry to all!!! -- Juanse Barros J. APIZUR S.A. Carrera 695 Gorbea - CHILE +56-45-271693 08-3613310 http://apiaraucania.blogspot.com/ juanseapi@gmail.com **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 00:40:15 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: wintering bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>I have bees that wintered to -62 F officially... into a hand dug root cellar approximately 5 foot deep. ... I have been placing three hives in the cellar. ...I have had 100% success. I compliment you on your effort!! Do you know if the temp in the cellar was close to the official -62F? If yes then I believe the colonies in a ground-level, draft-free shelter such as a barn might overwinter with a similar success. >>Without NOZEVIT I have a about 50% success - with or with out powered sugar application. Intestinal integrity is of utmost importance for me. A healthy gut translates to a superior immune system [at least in mammals]. Do you strap the hives and lower them with rope into the cellar? Almost 7 months is a very long no-fly period! What type of bee do you keep and how many bee-covered frames do you find when you bring the hives up? >>...their activity coming in and out of the pvc pipe. Occasionally it is a traffic jam of bees coming and going up and down the pipe! I assume you see this closer to the 1st week of May. Do they get some other days for cleansing flights in the winter? And how do the bees find their way back to their individual hives once inside the cellar - do you have one pvc pipe per hive? Waldemar **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 17:02:02 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: Winter bees-Comment for Bob Harrison In-Reply-To: <3dcef4a10802152016s4501aacdqefe07ca74e472ab3@mail.gmail.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT >> Hi, Like here in Alaska, 6, 7, and some times 8 months. > Bob, there are areas with long winters where winter bees must survive > for even longer periods! > > Randy Oliver God Bless, Keith Malone **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 20:40:30 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Winter bees (was Imidacloprid vs organophosphates) In-Reply-To: <7eb65cc10802152045s5c42813bwd3c32e2556dff3b4@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > To fullfill those 4 cycles - if I understand correct - for your country, > you > will need to start building your winter population in november. \ The following is mainly information for commercial beekeepers. We do things very different than hobby most of the time. Once our main honey flow is over (usually July 15th) the bees start bringing honey down from the supers (usually the bottom super gets an empty oval right over the brood nest). The queens slow down egg laying. Old forager bees die off and the population starts dropping. Then (hopefully) about five weeks later fall flowers start blooming and the production of winter bees starts. During this time period we are pulling all hives down to a single honey super. Unlike many I see feeding as simply an expense & labor cost. The reason why I leave a super on for awhile. At some point through checking my picked out to monitor hives I observe the bees have not started to raise the winter bees I make the decision for the bees and do one of several things to start the winter bee raising process. Leave alone beekeeping has never worked for me. I have found that I can make better decisions about the bees future welfare than the bees. Once I think I have got enough winter bees I again make the decision for the bees to stop raising winter bees: All beekeeping is local so I can only speak for my area of Missouri. When we get a mild winter early the bees (especially Italians) will continue to brood if fed or on a fall flow. Once I thank the bees have enough bees I feed heavy syrup to get the bees to start filling the brood nest which shuts down her queen rearing. Other strains I do different. Allen Dick ( his methods are on his on line beekeeping diary) always would open feed right before winter. Shuts down the queen and puts feed right in the center of the brood nest. I am too tight to open feed at this time so I check the weight of each hive and only feed those I fell are too light to winter. I mark on the hive the amount of feed needed and feed until I reach my estimate. I know its easy to simply feed all hives in the yard when you are pumping feed like I do out of a tote but a waste of money and makes boxes very hard to handle in spring. I realize many commercial beekeepers open feed and see nothing wrong with the method but I personally only open feed in very rare situations. I ration feed carefully to my bees and prefer the bees find there own stores rather than me buying their stores! I have got a friend which has said many times that he could buy a new pickup with the money he would save from passing on a one gallon feeding to all his hives (50,000 hives at the time). Feed is a big expense and the place you can help your operation bottom line if you feed only when the need is real. Over feeding in spring will cause swarming and failing to provide a enough stores for the bees to winter in our area causes hives to crash over winter. When and the amount to feed only comes from close observation of your bees. What works for me might not work for Tim Tucker 150 miles south of me or for Mike Vanarsdall 250 miles north. I might add that each year is different so observing what the bees are doing is best. bob -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 19:20:02 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: joe carson Subject: Re: wintering bees In-Reply-To: <20080216.164015.16039.0@webmail05.dca.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable We put a remote Thermometer in the cellar with the bees. I believe the bee= s generate about 25 to 30 watts of felt heat. The temp would be with in 10= degrees of outside ambient. One unanticipated issue was the breeze that w= as blown down the single pvc pipe. There was more moisture below it in the= cellar from the rain and snow blowing in. I do not know if it ever pooled= or created ice but it definitely was wetter than areas 3 feet away. =20 I have experimented with bees in school buses, barns, and sheds and outside= in the snow and many other ways. Total darkness, consistent temps (the rad= iant heat from the windows in the bus caused - as much as 30 degrees warme= r in the bus with direct sunlight - too much activity and heavy losses), pr= oper ventilation, among other considerations affected my bees. =20 Yes, I do lower the hives by straps. Rather heavy, need help! I have timb= ers running along the bottom of the cellar like railroad tracks which I sli= de the hives down. Can be rather exciting to have tons of bees around the = hive as you push it into position. Even with closing the entrance some vigi= lante bees reach me. Now I install my Carson Latch which is spring steel l= atches from box to box. Far less difficulties. I use a red colored bee from the northern tier of the States and lower Cana= da. I have tried most every bee I could find. What works for me may not b= e what works for you. I have re queened with many big name queen breeders = and some of the no name breeders. The black bees do not produce a crop for= me, the yellow ones do well in the summer but do not winter as well, the h= ybrids do well for a season. =20 There is the occasional errant bee coming up the pipe drawn to the sunlight= during a short warm spell (-15 F) but they obviously do not make it back. = The activity gets very strong as the weather gets closer to 32 degrees. T= he bees are observed going and coming through the pipe. I do not know how = they get back to their own hive or even if they do. I do not open the cell= ar until the season is right and no cameras installed in cellar to observe.= =20 I bring out about 5 to 6 frames of healthy bees per box in the spring. I s= tart with two deeps fully loaded with bees and honey. They build up fast a= nd are extremely motivated to do their job! In June I will have over 20 ho= urs of potential real sunlight What works for others may not work for me but this system does work for me = and now I have 35 hives in this type of test this winter as well as three o= ther bee yard testing areas. =20 Dr. Joe Carson Alaska Heavenly Honey *********** _________________________________________________________________ Shed those extra pounds with MSN and The Biggest Loser! http://biggestloser.msn.com/= **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 01:55:39 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juanse Barros Subject: Re: Winter bees (was Imidacloprid vs organophosphates) In-Reply-To: <6608A7F0A0264BF89BF55BEECCBDE636@bobPC> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Bob saud: Then (hopefully) about five weeks later fall flowers start blooming and the production of winter bees starts. Bod can you mention a couple of those flower concentrated on weed? Would the Golden Rod be part of those fall flowers? -- Juanse Barros J. APIZUR S.A. Carrera 695 Gorbea - CHILE +56-45-271693 08-3613310 http://apiaraucania.blogspot.com/ juanseapi@gmail.com **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 20:00:04 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: vitellogenin In-Reply-To: <47B751B1.2080609@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > > >Thanks, Randy. Never heard of it [vitellogenin]. Saw you as a reference. > > My pleasure, Bill. There's a lot more on this fascinating substance at scientificbeekeeping.com --look for Fat Bees 1 under nutrition. Randy **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 20:10:49 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: skim milk for early spring feed In-Reply-To: <47B74E6F.7020104@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > > >I thought you gave your bees bleach. If so, it is also Na (NaHCl, Sodium > Hydrochloride). Jeez, you guys! Bleach is a solution of sodium hypochlorite, NaOCl. Randy : ) **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 05:14:24 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: MGO Manuka Honey Level is Consumer Friendly MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII MGO Manuka Honey Level is Consumer Friendly http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/2008/02/paul-mgo-manuka-honey-level-is-consumer.html [Editor's Note: This article was submitted by Manuka Health New Zealand Limited Chief Executive Kerry Paul in response to an earlier statement by Professor Peter Molan, headlined "MGO Level Not Good Indicator of Honey's Antibacterial Activity," published on Apitherapy News. Note also that the term "MGO" is trademarked.] The ground-breaking research from Professor Henle's research group published in Journal of Molecular Nutrition and Food Research established for the first time methylglyoxal was responsible for the unique anti-bacterial activity of manuka honey. A later publication by the University of Waikato confirmed the Dresden discovery. The significance of the University of Dresden research is consumers can now be informed about what is in the manuka honey they are consuming and given information about how it relates to anti-bacterial activity. The issue is about being honest with consumers and being transparent with the information provided... The agar diffusion assay used to measure the anti-bacterial activity of honey is open to error and that is why medical researchers use the Minimum Inhibitory Concentration (MIC) assay to present their research... It is a commonly accepted view by all those involved in using the agar diffusion assay for honey testing that the system needs significant improvement... **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 08:19:24 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Yoon_Sik_Kim?= Subject: Re: wintering bees Comments: To: "Dr. Joe Carson" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Joe, What a delight to read your original contribution of keeping bees, well, up on the moon! What a uniquely challenging yet exciting environment up there near the pole! (I hear astronauts will soon train in the South Pole, experimenting on the potential colonization of the moon) Regarding the unusual moisture build-up inside the cellar, it could be the bees’ breathing proper that contributes such build up, given your relatively air-tight closing up. One can observe something akin to that phenomenon when sugar-feeding. For example, when you emergency-feed the bees with sugar at the tail end of winter, over a newspaper spread atop the frames, one can easily observe how the sugar, mixed with the ambient heat inside the hive and moisture, becomes a bit more malleable (wet) for the bees to consume. However, given your high success rate in wintering, perhaps the frigid air *with* high moisture content appears to be better than the bone-dry arctic chill. But I dare say your nectar flow in Alaska could be far better than ours in the south as the arctic plants compete in a cut-throat survival gauntlet. Yoon **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 08:27:02 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Yoon_Sik_Kim?= Subject: Re: Winter bees (was Imidacloprid vs organophosphates) Comments: To: Bob Harrison Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bob, I agree with your bee husbandry after July 15, the last week when our Sumac blooms fizzle away although my Vitex blooms still hold their ground for a little longer in the summer heat. Typically, I would open-feed late in October through the first frost, which occurs around November, but I am discovering that I should have started much sooner, perhaps in August, if not sometimes in July; in fact, the sooner, the better. There are just too many variables between the said period: weather, fall bloom, and queen failure, among others. Typically, I have been successful to split by August 15 with heavy individual feeding (a labor-intensive, time-consuming care), but the brooding cycle, even under the ideal condition, is rather unpredictable, particularly when the weather pattern yoyo’s as it has been in the recent past. Invariably early swarm-captures in late March through April around here would fend for themselves, left alone, for the first winter onslaught, making honey at least the next year; however, even those will winter better when assisted with supplemental feed because, for instance, we had a record drought two years ago and then a record-flood last year, back to back, making this agricultural endeavor a guess work. Wanting to increase numbers, without buying either a package or a queen, so that I can maintain the integrity of my feral-only stocks, has been a challenge recently largely because of unfavorable weather although I have been planting Vitex every year to fight the dearth between sumac and goldenrod blooms. When we had the record-flood, I hoped to get some “fall honey” but no such luck in the south. Although the abundance of water helped bloom many flowers I have not seen bloom before, it did not do a diddly squat on goldenrods, another reason to prepare for wintering starting as early as July. Yoon **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 11:48:18 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juanse Barros Subject: Re: skim milk for early spring feed In-Reply-To: <3dcef4a10802162010t5664c2eaq46fe4c365f89d274@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I am that bad at chem that tought the "H" was for hipo :) sorry again guys!!! **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 10:43:36 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Plaisted Subject: Re: Winter bees (was Imidacloprid vs organophosphates) In-Reply-To: <7eb65cc10802162055l6e408801lcb03fdae953cfb5a@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >" Bod can you mention a couple of those flower concentrated on weed? Would= the> Golden Rod be part of those fall flowers?" I'm not Bob, but yes golden rod is a major fall nector source in the north = east. =20 Jimhttp://www.northernqueens.com/ _________________________________________________________________ Helping your favorite cause is as easy as instant messaging.=A0You IM, we g= ive. http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Home/?source=3Dtext_hotmail_join= **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 16:41:36 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: wintering bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >I use a red colored bee from the northern tier of the States and lower Canada. Is this bee shown in any websites or do you have some pics? >>They build up fast and are extremely motivated to do their job! In June I will have over 20 hours of potential real sunlight What plants offer the best forage and what is your average yield per hive? Waldemar **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 11:26:56 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Winter bees (was Imidacloprid vs organophosphates) In-Reply-To: <7eb65cc10802162055l6e408801lcb03fdae953cfb5a@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Bob can you mention a couple of those flower concentrated on weed? Would > the Golden Rod be part of those fall flowers? In my area we have a wide variety of fall flowers/weeds. It seems for many of us that the fall flows we could always depend on are getting scarce. It has been awhile since we had a decent fall surplus from most areas. However with proper preparation after July 15th. and movement into areas of many fall honey plants around two supers of fall honey can be obtained in certain years. However on the positive side in all years but years of severe drought we seem to get plenty of fall pollen. The problem in the future will come in drought years when pollen becomes scarce and the bees pack in large quantities of a neonicotinoid treated seed pollen such as corn. My game plan is too move the bees around July 15th. to the south of me ( 40-50 miles) out of row crop areas and build for winter with supplemental feeding of both syrup and pollen patties to get the number of brood cycles needed for winter. The last two winters have been like the winters of old. Our Midwestern Beekeepers meeting for today has just been cancelled because the meeting location will have 6+ inches of fresh snow by meeting time. By the end of the meeting we will get freezing rain and high wind conditions. Although I would have attended despite the two hour long drive both ways. The normal drive at highway speeds is over an hour as I think I have got the longest commute of a person which tries to attend every meeting. I have an issue with ice but not snow as I have got 4 four wheel drive trucks. I voted a few minutes ago with the president and the rest of the board to cancel the meeting. Our members anxiously wait all month to attend but not worth one of our members getting hurt. We had a speaker involved in an accident trying to get to a fall meeting we held in bad weather. I try to produce some darker fall honey for sale but I have got enough in the warehouse to sell for two years. I try to produce a mixed fall honey from Goldenrod, Spanish nettle and asters and without heartsease mixed in. I do not try to place the bees on goldenrod alone as the honey granulates easily and can have a slight odor ( but usually disappears when processed). I prefer heartsease (smartweed) for the bees to winter on and can move a huge number of hives onto my smartweed location of about 1000 acres of the pink variety. However drought is the enemy of smartweed . The best smartweed years are when the Backwater river bottoms flood. The bottoms look like a waving field of wheat in fall but only pink. Although we have got the white variety in the area most large areas are the pink variety. Within minutes of unloading the air is full of bees going back and forth from smartweed. When I sit the bees on a couple hundred acre field of goldenrod the bees are only interested for a couple hours a day. I know goldenrod is a major crop for Peter and Lloyd but not for us and again all beekeeping is local. Sincerely, Bob Harrison -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 14:51:27 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Darrell Subject: Re: Winter bees (was Imidacloprid vs organophosphates) In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 17-Feb-08, at 8:27 AM, Yoon Sik Kim wrote: > Although the abundance of water > helped bloom many flowers I have not seen bloom before, it did not > do a > diddly squat on goldenrods, another reason to prepare for wintering > starting as early as July. > > Hi Yoon, Bob and all My fall crop(goldenrod & asters) is usually good but less than the July crop. In 2004 however the fall crop was much higher. My two scale hives averaged increases of more than 12.5 lbs per day from Sept 13-23. Two days( Sept 15 & 20) produced 20+ lb gains in each hive while rain on Sept 16 resulted in 5 lb losses. I extracted 650 lb from my 5 hives in Sept so that my scale hives were fairly representative of the others. All hives had heavy broodnests and one swarmed. Please comment on what approach you would use should you operate in an area where heavy fall flows occur. Bob Darrell Caledon Ontario Canada 44N80W **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 09:32:22 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: joe carson Subject: Re: wintering bees In-Reply-To: <20080217.084136.2520.0@webmail04.dca.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have not seen any pictures of bees colored like mine on the net. I have = not taken any close up pictures. The producible honey crop can be from 35 = pounds up to 300 pounds depending on the year. My yearly average would be = between 80 to 100 pounds per hive. We have some summers where it rains alm= ost every day and other years where it rains very little. I have a creek o= n one side of my property and a lake on the other so water is never a probl= em. The flower source is diverse. Some Fireweed, berry bushes, roses, many= , many, varieties of small and large flowers. There is no main source ther= e. In my other yards Fireweed is plentiful. I could list 20 or more flowe= rs but it takes all to produce my honey crop. Most honey is very light in c= olor and flavour. No strong bitter flavours. Dr. Joe Carson Alaska > Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 16:41:36 +0000 > From: waldig@NETZERO.COM > Subject: Re: [BEE-L] wintering bees > To: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu >=20 > >I use a red colored bee from the northern tier of the States and lower C= anada. >=20 > Is this bee shown in any websites or do you have some pics? =20 >=20 > >>They build up fast and are extremely motivated to=20 > do their job! In June I will have over 20 hours of potential real sunlig= ht >=20 > What plants offer the best forage and what is your average yield per hive= ? >=20 > Waldemar >=20 > **************************************************** > * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * > * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * > **************************************************** _________________________________________________________________ Need to know the score, the latest news, or you need your Hotmail=AE-get yo= ur "fix". http://www.msnmobilefix.com/Default.aspx= **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 19:19:15 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Winter bees-Comment for Bob Harrison MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I had a colony that died out just before Christmas that, although queenright, had had no brood since before I first looked at it on 10th April when I thought it was queenless. I found the marked queen on a subsequent examination on 15th April. They rejected all attempts to requeen, including running in a virgin and there were no laying workers. So when they finally died some of the workers must have been at least 9 months old. Chris **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 19:13:33 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Imidacloprid vs organophosphates In-Reply-To: <3dcef4a10802152009j77fdbc1bh8a9ebd958a56f731@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, When those subscribers( which are also members of BEE-L )to the American Bee Journal read my April article on the neonicotinoid systemic insecticides you will find a very toned down version of the BEE-L discussion. Being the first (to my knowledge ) article in a bee magazine on the subject I only wanted to make beekeepers aware of possible problems in the future. I even left out Bayer's name in ABJ ( Bayer has the registration for imidacloprid) . I could have presented many of the points made on BEE-L( and information from the many lawsuits against Bayer) but all journeys begin with the first step. After watching the Daytona 500 race today I turned to the program 60 minutes and guess what was on. A presentation on the trouble scientists had getting Bayer & the FDA to restrict the use of the Bayer drug Trasylol. A two year battle which the scientists won in the end! The scientist said if Bayer had voluntarily restricted the drug (instead of fighting their research) then over a 1000 lives a month could have been saved. Over 24,000 lives which in the scientists opinion would still be alive today if Bayer and the FDA had restricted the trasylol use when research (other than Bayer's) proved people were dying because of the drug. Trasylol has been banned in some countries. Bayer would not comment when asked to by the program 60 minutes but sent a written statement saying Bayer had research showing trasylol was safe within FDA guidelines. The program ended with saying Bayer has posted record profits for 2007 and many lawsuits over the drug trasylol have been filed. I feel the above is important to the current discussion to point out the trouble beekeepers will have *if* imidacloprid is found to cause problems with non target insects. In my opinion if Bayer has to choose between record profits and the loss of bees then the bees will lose out. If those scientists from the 60 minutes program had not stood up to Bayer and pushed for its restriction then in their opinion a 1000 people a month would still be dying. The scientists pushed for an outright ban of trasylol but instead surgeons can use the drug in certain situations like they can the drug chloramphenical. Did others see the program? Comments? bob -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 22:06:08 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Carl & Virginia Webb Subject: Re: Winter bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Chris wrote: >>I had a colony that died out just before Christmas that, although =20 queenright, had had no brood since before I first looked at it on 10th = April when I=20 thought it was queenless. I found the marked queen on a subsequent = examination=20 on 15th April. They rejected all attempts to requeen, including = running in a=20 virgin and there were no laying workers. So when they finally died = some of=20 the workers must have been at least 9 months old. I have in spring killed queens in small over wintered nucs that seem to = have lost their ability to lay an egg. Later I discovered that these = queens were able to lay and produce healthy brood if young bees were = added to the nuc. I then assumed that there was nothing wrong with the = queen but it was the workers that were unable to produce the glandular = food for her brood. The alternative for the workers was to eat or remove = any eggs that she would lay. Thus the colony was unable to produce brood = even though there was nothing wrong with the queen. Was my assumption = correct that the workers were too old to produce royal jelly? Could adding young bees have solved your problem?=20 Carl Webb **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 07:22:02 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: Imidacloprid vs organophosphates Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > Trasylol® administration may cause fatal anaphylactic or anaphylactoid reactions. Fatal reactions have occurred with an initial (test) dose as well as with any of the components of the dose regimen. Fatal reactions have also occurred in situations where the initial (test) dose was tolerated. In other words, some people have fatal allergic reactions. As a sufferer from peanut allergy, I sympathize with the threat of sudden death from a substance tolerated by most people. I don't expect the world to ban peanuts any time soon. I don't expect to be awarded a million dollars by Planters, either. As beekeepers, we all are aware of the danger of anaphylactic shock. Any one of us could develop bee sting allergy at any time, or be implicated in the accidental death of a family member or neighbor. Because Bayer or anyone else sells a product that kills people, doesn't mean that all the products they sell kill people. Most useful and powerful drugs have side effects and some are fatal. Does the benefit outweigh the risk? Risk/benefit analysis must be applied to everything we do. Again, imidachloprid is safer for applicators, safer than organophosphates, and farmers use pesticides to save their crops. No pesticides is safer than pesticides but if no pesticide means no harvest, what are you gonna do? pb **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 05:01:14 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Grant Gillard Subject: Re: Winter bees In-Reply-To: <000e01c871db$35c468e0$6897fea9@webbhoney> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The Webb's wrote: "I have in spring killed queens in small over wintered nucs that seem to have lost their ability to lay an egg. Later I discovered that these queens were able to lay and produce healthy brood if young bees were added to the nuc. I then assumed that there was nothing wrong with the queen but it was the workers that were unable to produce the glandular food for her brood." I think what you got going is correct, that queens need the young bees. Too often the queen gets blames, then you order a new queen only to have wasted the money, your time and energy, and the aging bees in the hive. Having had the same problem, I also tried adding frames of sealed brood with the attached bees to dwindling colonies. However, by the time the colony turned around, I had missed the honey flow. Part of this is my fault as I keep thinking the queen is going to come around so I don't get the brood transferred until late spring. One way I've gotten around this problem is with my summer raised queens and fall splits. Actually the splits are August and August in Missouri hardly qualifies as fall. My goal is to raise my own queens, convert the mating nuc to a single, weed out the lesser quality, equalize colonies and combine the weak ones, then feed and treat going into winter including a protein/pollen supplement. This produces a nice single, which is really a large nuc with an accepted queen ready to go. This also seems to work better with Italians. I have some feral queens that shut down early in the fall, are slow to brood up in the spring, and carry a smaller cluster through the winter. When the queen finally gets it in her head to lay eggs, she does so rather aggressively. I've been impressed and pleasantly surprised, but also felt like those colonies were not going to do anything and pretty much counted them as a loss. My conclusion is that it's not just younger bees that's needed, you may also need a race of bees, like Italians, that carry brood much later in the fall and much earlier in the spring. I hope your bees are doing well, Grant Jackson, MO --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 06:01:30 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: Honey Should be 'First Choice' for Wound Dressings MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Honey Should be 'First Choice' for Wound Dressings Fighting Super Bugs with Honey Committee for the Promotion of Honey and Health, Inc Newsletter, February 2008, Volume 1. Issue 1. Page 3 http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/2008/02/honey-should-be-first-choice-for-wound.html In her presentation entitled "The Grossly Underutilized Anti-microbial", Dr. Shona Blair from the University of Sydney, Australia, gave to honey the therapeutic challenge presented by "problematic pathogens" including several antibiotic resistant micro-organisms; 60 species of anaerobes; fungi (Candida and Tinea); and biofilms (microorganisms that secrete a slimy protective coating that makes them resistant to antibiotics)... **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 09:46:27 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Regent TS Insecticide and Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The following came to me in a circuitous route, from a French paper, translated in Endland, skipping across the pond to the midwest, then bouncing to my mailbox in Albany. Gotta love the internet! I have no reason to doubt the source, or the translation, nor do I suspect any vested interest or ax grinding. Then again, I don't even know the source, I have met the translator (a very nice gentleman), and I know the person who sent it my way (I believe he owes me a beer). Anyway, given all the hops, skips and jumps, this might be considered hearsay, although I suspect it can be either easily verified or debunked. Aaron Morris - I think, therefore I bee! Regent TS Insecticide and Bees Possibilities of unacceptable risks for bees, according to report an official report from CST (Scientific and Technical Committee) Bees: The pesticide, Regent TS presents an unacceptable risk Agence France Presse Friday15 February PARIS The pesticide Fipronil, sold under the name Regent TS by the German chemical Company BASF and prohibited in France since 2004 for maize and sunflowers, carries "unacceptable risks" to bees, according to an official report from AFP. A comparison between bees exposed to different levels of concentration of Fipronil, has shown evidence of 'worrying' results which 'do not allow the exclusion of unacceptable risks' to bees, according to this report by a committee appointed by the French Minister of Agriculture. This committee had published a report in 2003 on the insecticide 'Gaucho', produced by Bayer, similarly prohibited in 2004 for use on seeds because of neurological risks which would have presented in bees. The reduction in the bee population, which presents a danger for reproduction by pollination of vegetables, has been moderated in France since the halting of the use of these two substances, but the controversy has bounced back with the recent endorsement by the government of a new pesticide, Cruiser. According to MDRGF (The Movement for the Rights and the Respect of Future Generations) the report "shows clearly the inherent danger with systemic insecticides" (the family to which the three insecticides Regent, Gaucho and Cruiser belong). The Movement demands "the immediate suspension of the approval of 'Cruiser' on maize and an undertaking by the government not to approve these substances". On its side, AFFSA (The French Agency for the Health Safety of Foods) carried out a study on 120 colonies of domestic bees to examine the cause of the death of these insects. "No statistical evidence between the presence of residues and the populations of adult bees and larvae, nor with the death of colonies, has been able to be proved" according to the study by AFFSA, which specified that the results "are based on a very small number of observations". **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 08:43:58 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John & Christy Horton Subject: Winter bees:Carl MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Carl wrote: I have in spring killed queens in small over wintered nucs that seem to have lost their ability to lay an egg. Later I discovered that these queens were able to lay and produce healthy brood if young bees were added to the nuc. I then assumed that there was nothing wrong with the queen but it was the workers that were unable to produce the glandular food for her brood. The alternative for the workers was to eat or remove any eggs that she would lay. Thus the colony was unable to produce brood even though there was nothing wrong with the queen. Was my assumption correct that the workers were too old to produce royal jelly? Could adding young bees have solved your problem? Carl, I find the above fascinating.....it may have been a factor that cause me to dstroy a queen or two(something I am loathe to do) Just to confirm-How did you know that it was the addition of young bees and not just a more advanced season that induced the resumed laying? Got any "clinchers"? John Horton **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 09:01:02 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Imidacloprid vs organophosphates In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Peter & All, Although Peter and I agree on most beekeeping issues I really have a tough time with his position on the Bayer issue. Today's news was the Hallmark packing house problem. The reason these things keep happening is simple. Without public outrage *changes* never take place. Some say Mad cow disease will never be a problem like it was in England because of the controls in place at our packing houses to prevent sick cows entering the food chain. I hope most saw the segment this morning as by tomorrow the beef industry clout will make the segment disappear! The everything is great in the U.S. food and drug department and does not need improvement shows in my opinion ignorance or simply not wanting to take on the tough issues. We need to rein in some of these companies. I think if you had carefully read my post ( or watched the Bayer 60 minutes program) you would have seen the issue was not about placing a problem drug on the market. Although research showed the drug would be a problem before registered was suppressed. The problem I pointed to was the two year fight when proof was provided the drug was killing around a 1000 people a month. Also other drugs which had a much better track record were available for doctors to use but not sold by Bayer. My point which apparently went right over your head was that *IF* the neonicotinoids are proven to cause bee problems we will be forced to wage a battle to get the label change for imidacloprid ( bee honey & pollen sources) as past history shows the company seems to be more willing to fight a problem than solve the problem when proof of a problem exists. The simple truth I am afraid (after months of research into the issue) is that the U.S. beekeepers simply have not got the money as an industry to fight Bayer and win. Thanks to the many on the list which saw the program and sent me a kudos email! bob -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 13:28:57 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Carl & Virginia Webb Subject: Winter bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable John asked: >Just to confirm-How did you know that it was the addition of young bees = and=20 not just a more advanced season that induced the resumed laying? Got any = "clinchers"? It was several years ago but yes it was later in the season when = checking and rechecking over wintered nucs. Young bees were already = available to add. As I remember the clusters were very small in the nuc = needing help. My objective was to have spring queens available rather = than producing bees in the nucs. Carl **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 14:33:15 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Marron Subject: Winter bees In-Reply-To: <000d01c8725c$20410970$6897fea9@webbhoney> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've heard a lot about the need for "young bees" to feed brood. It is known that older bees can reverse the changes to their physiology and once again produce brood food. I was once doing 2 things in a small outyard. I was moving one hive and requeening another. I kept the old queen in case of emergency. Many foragers were returning to the site of the moved hive. I set a deep on a bottom-board and gave them a few combs. Then I said, "what the heck " and gave them the spare queen. They got along well and produced brood. They made a fine nuc with 100% forager bees. Dick Marron **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 13:18:03 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: Winter bees In-Reply-To: <007a01c87265$2368e740$6a3ab5c0$@net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hi, I was hoping someone would bring this fact forward for others to be aware of. Old bees can make brood food and Royal jelly if they need to. I have also found this true. Jay Smith, author of "Better Queens" explains this and how he observed this in this book. In fact Jay explains in this book how he thinks older bees are more reliable at producing Royal Jelly than the youngest of bees. Check it out for yourself at; Better Queens by Jay Smith http://www.bushfarms.com/beesbetterqueenscondensed.htm God Bless, Keith Malone Alaska **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 18:12:19 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Wintering mite behaviour MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 16/02/2008 01:13:36 GMT Standard Time, bba@DISCOVERYNET.COM writes: how would a fellow go about and observe the behavour and habits of wintering mites in a colony? You can learn a lot by looking at what falls through the mesh floor. Chris **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 18:57:00 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: GMO based sugar syrup blend coming next MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 16/02/2008 20:22:54 GMT Standard Time, steppler@CICI.MB.CA writes: Seems like another good reason to let your bees live on their own stores! Is that reason more so based on personal opinion,or actual science? It means that you and your customers can be justifiably confident that what you are eating and they are buying is a natural product, which is one of the important marketing points for honey. Although it is highly unlikely that any GM protein (the bit with the modified genes in) will end up in honey, the customers, on this side of the Atlantic at least, tend to regard anything associated with GM as something to be avoided. Chris (UK) **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 15:29:06 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: Winter bees In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT HI, i should have provided this link for reference to Jay Smith's "Better Queens" and his observations and opinions. http://www.bushfarms.com/beesbetterqueens.htm#Old%20Bees%20Good%20Nurses and, Better Queens by Jay Smith http://www.bushfarms.com/beesbetterqueens.htm Sorry for the confusion. God Bless, Keith Malone **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 19:30:57 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Plaisted Subject: Re: GMO based sugar syrup blend coming next In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > "customers, on this side of the Atlantic at least, tend to regard anythin= g > associated with GM as something to be avoided.> > Chris (UK)" =20 Too bad customers on this side didn't feel the same way. =20 Jimhttp://www.northernqueens.com/ _________________________________________________________________ Connect and share in new ways with Windows Live. http://www.windowslive.com/share.html?ocid=3DTXT_TAGHM_Wave2_sharelife_0120= 08= **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 20:09:30 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: Imidacloprid vs organophosphates Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bob Harrison wrote: >Although Peter and I agree on most beekeeping issues I really have a tough >time with his position on the Bayer issue. I have no position on the "Bayer issue". Just trying to keep it balanced. pb **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 20:51:54 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: Imidacloprid vs organophosphates Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I'm no expert on this topic but these studies below seem convincing even if they were done by the chemical industry. Perhaps the experiments are flawed ....anyone care to comment? OR does anyone have data that shows opposite conclusions? >From what I can determine corn and cotton in the US are the most likely large plots of Imidacloprid treated crops in the USA. While the material has other labeled uses corn and cotton appear to be the big tonnage. Thus I don't find the hand wringing and speculation swirling around Imidacloprid very convincing especially when the corn & cotton belt in the USA has been quite absent from any large unexplained bee losses aka CCD. This paper is from Bayer Uptake, translocation and metabolism of imidacloprid in plants http://www.bulletinofinsectology.org/pdfarticles/vol56-2003-035-040sur.pdf Conslusions More than 15 studies with imidacloprid have been car- ried out concerning uptake, translocation and metabo- lism in various plant species mainly after foliar, soil or seed treatment. The uptake after soil or seed treatment is about 5% of the applied dose and the a.s. shows good acropetal mobility within the xylem and poor basipetal translocation within the phloem. Three principal meta- bolic pathways of imidacloprid in plants were identified showing a quick degradation of the a.s., especially after seed or soil application. The findings of the metabolism studies show a clear and consistent picture. It can be concluded that in nearly all crops the metabolic pathway of imidacloprid runs via the same three routes and re- sults in qualitative and quantitative similar composition of the metabolic spectrum. All identified metabolites still contain the 6-chloropicolyl moiety of imidacloprid. Hence, the relevant residue to be analysed in field resi- due trials can be defined as the sum of imidacloprid and its metabolites containing the 6-chloropicolyl moiety, expressed as imidacloprid. The nature of the residue in bee-relevant matrices of oilseeds (sunflower nectar and pollen) was determined to consist of the parent compound imidacloprid only. Field residue trials with imidacloprid after seed-dressing of sunflower, corn and rape revealed that no residues above the limit of quantitation of the residue analytical method were present in pollen and nectar. an older study from Bayer with similar results http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin/abstract/77005622/ABSTRACT Abstract In a greenhouse metabolism study, sunflowers were seed-treated with radiolabelled imidacloprid in a 700 g kg-1 WS formulation (Gaucho® WS 70) at 0.7 mg AI per seed, and the nature of the resulting residues in nectar and pollen was determined. Only the parent compound and no metabolites were detected in nectar and pollen of these seed-treated sunflower plants (limit of detection <0.001 mg kg-1). In standard LD50 laboratory tests, imidacloprid showed high oral toxicity to honeybees (Apis mellifera), with LD50 values between 3.7 and 40.9 ng per bee, corresponding to a lethal food concentration between 0.14 and 1.57 mg kg-1. The residue level of imidacloprid in nectar and pollen of seed-treated sunflower plants in the field was negligible. Under field-growing conditions no residues were detected (limit of detection: 0.0015 mg kg-1) in either nectar or pollen. There were also no detectable residues in nectar and pollen of sunflowers planted as a succeeding crop in soils which previously had been cropped with imidacloprid seed- treated plants. Chronic feeding experiments with sunflower honey fortified with 0.002, 0.005, 0.010 and 0.020 mg kg-1 imidacloprid were conducted to assess potential long-term adverse effects on honeybee colonies. Testing end-points in this 39-day feeding study were mortality, feeding activity, wax/comb production, breeding performance and colony vitality. Even at the highest test concentration, imidacloprid showed no adverse effects on the development of the exposed bee colonies. This no-adverse-effect concentration of 0.020 mg kg-1 compares with a field residue level of less than 0.0015 mg kg-1 ( = limit of detection in the field residue studies) which clearly shows that a sunflower seed dressing with imidacloprid poses no risk to honeybees. This conclusion is confirmed by observations made in more than 10 field studies and several tunnel tests and a French study Experimental study on the toxicity of imidacloprid given in syrup to honey bee (Apis mellifera) colonies http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin/abstract/109630841/ABSTRACT ABSTRACT Two groups of eight honey bee colonies were fed with two different concentrations of imidacloprid in saccharose syrup during summer (each colony was given 1 litre of saccharose syrup containing 0.5 µg litre-1 or 5 µg litre-1 of imidacloprid on 13 occasions). Their development and survival were followed in parallel with control hives (unfed or fed with saccharose syrup) until the end of the following winter. The parameters followed were: adult bee activity (number of bee entering the hive and pollen carrying activity), adult bee population level, capped brood area, frequency of parasitic and other diseases, mortality, number of frames with brood after wintering and a global score of colonies after wintering. The only parameters linked to feeding with imidacloprid-supplemented saccharose syrup when compared with feeding with non-supplemented syrup were: a statistically non-significant higher activity index of adult bees, a significantly higher frequency of pollen carrying during the feeding period and a larger number of capped brood cells. When imidacloprid was no longer applied, activity and pollen carrying were re-established at a similar level for all groups. Repeated feeding with syrup supplemented with imidacloprid did not provoke any immediate or any delayed mortality before, during or following the next winter, whereas such severe effects are described by several French bee keepers as a consequence of imidacloprid use for seed dressing in neighbouring cultures. In any case, during the whole study, mortality was very low in all groups, with no difference between imidacloprid-fed and control colonies. Further research should now address several hypotheses: the troubles described by bee keepers have causes other than imidacloprid; if such troubles are really due to this insecticide, they may only be observed either when bees consume contaminated pollen, when no other sources of food are available, in the presence of synergic factors (that still need to be identified), with some particular races of bees or when colonies are not strong and healthy. Copyright © 2004 Society of Chemical Industry **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 21:21:35 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Subject: Re: Imidacloprid vs organophosphates In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin/abstract/109630841/ABSTRACT ".......if such troubles are really due to this insecticide, they may only be observed either when bees consume contaminated pollen, when no other sources of food are available, in the presence of synergic factors (that still need to be identified), with some particular races of bees or when colonies are not strong and healthy." The above suggests to me that it is admitted that bees are able to harvest pollen containing levels of Imidaclopride that are detrimental to bees, if: - They (the bees) are present in mono culture environments. (I have physicaaly seen comb containing predominant quantities of Maize pollen or Sunflower pollen). Strange as it may seem - but farmers ask beekeepers to place colonies in such to aid in pollination! - They are in the presence of Imidaclopride and some other factor. (Believing in the application of the Principle of Precaution) - I suggest that the removal of the one known factor in a situation that has when linked to other unknowns, may cause adverse effects on a non targeted organism. (Long sentence - sorry!) - Certain bees (age profile or race etc.) may be suceptable to the toxic effects of Imidaclopride, when others are not. Therefore is this indirectly suggesting that we as a possible harmed party must change our stocks? Only to consequencely have to do the same for the next generation of preparations. Dog wagging tail or what ? Peter **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 21:59:24 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Imidacloprid vs organophosphates In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Brian & All, I looked at many of the chemical paid for studies. imidacloprid is not found in detectable amounts in pollen the early studies said. Untrue but as you say an old study. Bees fed syrup laced with imidacloprid thrived. Not so but again an old study. I listed in an earlier post all the different insects imidacloprid will kill. Why would such a powerful insecticide not kill a honey bee or a butterfly? As a orchard owner I can tell you there were some hard to kill insects on the list. Also all chemical company research I have seen is based on LD 50 and avoids PPM amounts (for good reason). I wildest thing you posted was that if imidacloprid was the problem then areas of corn would be the hardest hit areas for CCD and its not. O contraire! Those areas actually contain high numbers of claimed CCD dead outs. In areas like California where little corn is grown they reported little CCD. I have never said the so called CCD was caused by the neonicotinoids alone but the Bayer research you posted is simply wrong about those areas being CCD free. I really tire of the game the chemical companies play but you are free to choose their side of the issue if you want. All the private research is different than the Bayer research which is and is why we need new research. Imidacloprid was registered on the basis of the Bayer research *you posted* which has largely been proven inaccurate now by the CCD team and a couple others doing testing. French beekeepers are fighting hard to protect their industry and the U.S. beekeeping industry seems asleep at the wheel. Instead of simply deciding to not sell neonicotinoids in France for use on certain plants the chemical company simply puts another brand name on an imidacloprid solution and tries to slip past French beekeepers. I have spent weeks looking at the research and see a pattern with Bayer and all their products. If you keep looking I think you will see the same. They like wording things so the average person has trouble following their drift. They avoid common terminology like PPM and PPB. bob -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 08:41:23 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Winter bees In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Keith & all > Old bees can make brood food and Royal jelly if they need to. True enough in the main, but what about at the extreme limits of age, I suspect all glandular activity falls off with age and there may be a point when no brood food can be produced. I was suspicious of this about 25 years ago when a few very undeveloped broodless colonies ( some only two frames) romped away after being given a frame of brood and bees. This was in May, when most UK colonies are well developed. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://www.dave-cushman.net (http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman) Short FallBack M/c, Build 7.01/2.01 **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 05:52:21 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: Honey Can Soothe a Burn MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Honey Can Soothe a Burn By Anahad O'Connor, The New York Times, 2/19/2008 http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/2008/02/honey-can-soothe-burn.html Home remedies for soothing mild burns run the gamut, from aloe vera gel to butter. Most that have been around for ages are clearly bad ideas. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention warns that applying butter or various popular ointments, for example, can increase the risk of infection. But at least one remedy, honey, has held up well... **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 09:41:27 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Imidacloprid vs organophosphates In-Reply-To: <766D9B3877534CDDABAE25593539AE6D@bobPC> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Why would such a powerful insecticide not kill a honey bee or a > butterfly? What part of the plant is the insect eating? When time was the insecticide applied? Same questions apply to all pesticides. Sevin is a terrible pesticide for bees, but I have used it many times in the past for cucumber beetles by applying it in early spring as a wettable powder on the first leaves. So the bees are fine. > > Imidacloprid was registered on the basis of the Bayer research *you > posted* which > has largely been proven inaccurate now by the CCD team How has the CCD team proved the data inaccurate? Love to hear from them. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 10:53:31 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: Imidacloprid vs organophosphates Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Tue, 19 Feb 2008 09:41:27 -0500, Bill Truesdell wrote: >How has the CCD team proved the data inaccurate? Love to hear from them. > good point ....am I missing something or is US government and American university research on Imidacloprid non- existent? **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 10:36:41 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Mike_Bassett?= Subject: new york bee keepers Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit please see bill A06524 . it amend's the real property tax exepmting buildings use in the production of honey and beeswax, the way i read it. also A07543. requires the disclosure of location of apiarys. only having lived in n.y. fro 4 years does property tax exepmtion include school tax? mike bassett lafayette n.y. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 13:12:50 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Darrell Subject: Re: Imidacloprid vs organophosphates In-Reply-To: <766D9B3877534CDDABAE25593539AE6D@bobPC> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 18-Feb-08, at 10:59 PM, Bob Harrison wrote: > > I have spent weeks looking at the research and see a pattern with > Bayer and all their products. If you keep looking I think you will > see the same. They like wording things so the average person has > trouble following their drift. They avoid common terminology like > PPM and PPB. > Hi Bob and all Have you found, in your searches, references to imidacloprid half life. I believe it is quite long. I remember reports from PEI that measurable amounts of imidacloprid showed up in the following year cover crop after being used on potatoes. Year three potato crop was again treated with residuals from year one remaining. The bees get nothing from the potatoes but do forage on the cover crops and verges. Bob Darrell Caledon Ontario Canada 44N80W - snowing heavily, singles buried **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 15:02:34 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Plaisted Subject: Re: new york bee keepers In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mike asks: =20 "please see bill A06524 . it amend's the real property tax exepmting build= ings use in the production of honey and beeswax, the way i read it. also A= 07543. requires the disclosure of location of apiarys. only having lived in= n.y. fro 4 years does property tax exepmtion include school tax?" =20 Mike =20 No it doesn't exempt you from school taxes, and only reduces your taxes by = the exemption on the buildings, so you still pay, just not as much. Hope t= his helps. =20 Jimhttp://www.northernqueens.com/ _________________________________________________________________ Connect and share in new ways with Windows Live. http://www.windowslive.com/share.html?ocid=3DTXT_TAGHM_Wave2_sharelife_0120= 08= **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 15:44:57 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Imidacloprid half-life In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit All you will ever want to know from an independent source on imid.. http://www.cdpr.ca.gov/docs/emon/pubs/fatememo/imid.pdf The half-life of any pesticide is actually a range, since it can be long or short depending on the conditions. Generally speaking, the half-life of imid. is 49-190 days, but it can last much longer or much shorter, a few days to 600+ days, it all depends on the conditions. If you take the high end of 190, that will result in at least 1/4 remaining a year later, so it would not be unusual to find it in the soil at measurable amounts at the time of the next application. It is not supposed to disappear before the labeled half-life since it will only be reduced by half. If you measure ppb, it will be around for a very long time, along with everything else you put in the field. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 15:40:48 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: bill bartlett Subject: Thought this may be of interst MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Colony collapse disorder: Ice cream at risk? Posted: Feb 18th 2008 8:15AM by Bethany Sanders Filed under: Food and Nutrition, General Health, Sustainable Community Never mind that honeybees are disappearing at an alarming rate. Never = mind that there's no clear answer why. Never mind that if they disappear = altogether, so will at least a third of our food supply that depends on = bees for pollination. Never mind all of that. The mysterious bee = disappearance could lead to a shortage of ice cream, people. And that is = a true emergency, in my book. Haagen-Daz, which uses all natural ingredients, says that the honeybee = crisis is having a big impact on their business. Forty percent of their = flavors use ingredients that are dependent on bees, including = strawberry, toasted pecan, and banana split. Haagen-Daz says that they = may have to change their flavor offerings in the future, and have = recently donated a large chunk of money toward researching colony = collapse disorder. They're also putting out a new flavor this spring, = Vanilla Honey Bee, that will raise money to put toward research as well. In all seriousness, the bee issue is a serious one. Some research has = pointed toward a pathogen or virus as the cause, but until researchers = can pinpoint and reverse the problem, the bees remain at risk. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 16:12:38 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: pesticide fact sheets In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://www.epa.gov/opp00001/factsheets/ is the EPA site where you can see all the pesticides that are out there and get the info on them, at least what they got from the manufacturer and/or other sources. They cite all the references they used for the data. It is a good starting point, and then you can search the more green sites for the death and destruction that are 'actually" cause by the pesticide. You have to be fairly discerning with either, since there may not be good science, but the EPA is much less suspect with better reference support. The best studies are usually field studies where measurements are real life, instead of laboratory. Even then, watch for agendas. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 17:41:34 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: Thought this may be of interst Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Tue, 19 Feb 2008 15:40:48 -0500, bill bartlett wrote: > >Haagen-Daz, which uses all natural ingredients, says that the honeybee crisis is having a big impact on their business. yada yada like they even spec US honey in their product. my guess is its all based on price as it comes through the door. this kind of "greenwashing" is now common place in many many US manfacturers of food or whatever. would be interesting to call them and see what their spec for honey is..... .like is country of origin even a requirement? at least "we" get some of the crumbs from their promotion........ **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 17:53:06 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: Thought this may be of interst Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit i called them got an answer right away, and they said they buy from Dutch Gold. Not being from that region I cannot comment if they are big buyers of foreign honey, ask me about our large regional packers and the answer is yes and wow do they. Can anyone on the list comment on Dutch Gold ? **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 18:16:35 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Thank you Haagen-Dazs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Someone wrote about a recent Haagen-Dazs article which says that the = honeybee crisis is having a big impact on their business. =20 Someone else responded, "yada yada like they even spec US honey in their = product ... this kind of "greenwashing" is now common place in many many = US manfacturers of food or whatever." I find this response truly offensive! When someone or some company = throws $250,000 at a problem affecting our industry to help find a = solution, I will not question their motives. I thank them for their = support! Geesh! Does everything have to be made bad in this world? Thanks you = Haagen-Dazs! I'm heading out to cash in the coupon for a free pint you = gave me in Sacramento, and while I'm at it I'll buy another 3 or 4 = pints. It's not exactly what my fat ass needs, but I'll make the = sacrifice! Aaron Morris - thinking thank you Haagen-Dazs **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 16:21:34 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: Thank you Haagen-Dazs In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- Aaron Morris wrote: ,,, When someone > or some company throws $250,000 at a problem > affecting our industry to help find a solution, I > will not question their motives. I thank them for > their support! Thank You Aaron for having the courage to say that!!! I was very recently ran off a list by my fellow beekeepers because I mentioned the contribution of $32,000 made by Burts Bees. They wanted to know what I was doing to protest. Something about Burts Bees being owned by the enviornment destroying Clorox company and I was told I should be protesting the donation by boycotting Clorox, speaking up against the donation, and start bleaching my clothes with lemon juice of all things. ;) Whereas, I was intrested in thanking Burts Bees, and promoting more of the same coutributions from other companies. I say follow these 4 rules: * Take the donation. * Put it to good use. * And then ask for more. * And clorox bleach works best for whites. ;) http://www.thedailygreen.com/environmental-news/latest/burts-bees-47121502 “Burt's Bees, the maker of "earth-friendly natural" personal care products, is contributing $32,000, and the North American Pollinator Protection Campaign's Honeybee” Thank You Burts Bees. While we are at it, who else deserves a thank you for helping the pollinators? Best Wishes, Joe http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/HistoricalHoneybeeArticles ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 16:00:31 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: trevor mansell Subject: Re: Thank you Haagen-Dazs In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Are they going to garantee to buy U.S. honey? ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 18:26:03 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: A history of the introduction of honey bee races into the United States In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello All, Would anyone know where I can procure a copy of this article? A topic of great intrest. 'A history of the introduction of honey bee races into the United States' by Sheppard, W.S. American Bee Journal 129:617-619; 664-667. 1989. Thanks Joe http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/HistoricalHoneybeeArticles ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 18:40:38 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: 1897 - Bees Changing Color In-Reply-To: <362085.11809.qm@web56402.mail.re3.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello All, >From the introduction of Italian bees into America perhaps in 1860, beekeepers have sought ways to keep the strain, as stated at the time "pure". Quotes from an article published in 1897 ===Start=== “The beginner who gets a colony of Italian bees is often puzzled to find that within a year or so, the bright yellow rings have largely disappeared from the workers, and some of the bees are entirely black….” “…So it happens that one who has a colony of full blood Italians in a, locality where black bees prevail, is almost sure to find upon the change of queens that his bees are a cross between Italian and blacks, or, as they are commonly called, hybrids….” “…On the other hand, his neighbor, who has nothing but black bees will be surprised to find in some of his hives bees that have yellow stripes, the drones from the Italian colony having met the young queens of the black colony….” “A. L. Aspinwall, in Beekeepers' Review, gives a plan whereby he thinks he has succeeded in getting the majority of his young queens mated in or near his own apiary. He cut off a sixteenth of an inch from the wings of his young queens and by this means made it more difficult for them to fly far away. Some of the queens had an eighth of an inch taken from the wings on each side, and these were equally a success.” ===end=== An intresting solution to the problem. Perhaps, it would have made queens expend more energy, and thus, unable to fly to distant DCAs But do you imagine it had the desired effect? Or do you think it would have made no significant difference? Best Wishes Joe http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/HistoricalHoneybeeArticles ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 21:38:15 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: CCD team & imidacloprid In-Reply-To: <200802200245.m1K2jnjJ021996@atd111.acs.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Bill, Brian & All, Quote from Jerry Hayes ( member of CCD team since the start) in the paper f= rom last summer at the listed site. "Among toxicants , one of the primary suspects behind CCD is the insecticid= e imidacloprid explains Jerry Hayes" Sincerely, Bob Harrison Article Title: As bee colonies collapse across the U.S. and other countries, researchers s= earch for causes Published:=20 Article Location: http://pubs.acs.org/cen/email/html/cen_email_cen_85_i25_8525gov2.html =46rom Chemical & Engineering News http://www.cen-online.org A service of the American Chemical Society. --=20=20 --=20 This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 22:07:05 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: CCD team & pesticides In-Reply-To: <200802192248.m1JMmque010676@atd111.acs.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Bill, Brian & All, Visit these sites and learn. I post only on BEE-L because in my opinion B= EE-L is the list for the beekeeping informed. Be informed! Quote from Diana L. Cox foster from the site: " Chemical pesticides could act as a potential trigger for the viral infe= ction , and preliminary data from other studies show that some classes of p= esticides may lead to amplification of specific viruses" I would love to share what specific pesticides I believe Diana L. Cox Fos= ter suspects but then this post would be rejected as only my opinion and th= e above is exactly word for word what she said. Some of you in the Kansas City area might have seen me on the 5 and 6 PM = channel 4 news program tonight speaking about the industry bee problems. My= close friend Glenn Davis ( owner Bell Hill Honey) talked me into doing an = interview with him & Channel 4. We went to a yard of mine with 24 hives of = bees and they filmed for 30 minutes in the cold. The reporters did not list= en to what Glenn and I said but made the point in the segment that higher f= ood prices at the grocery store was the big problem. I think it will be awh= ile before I consent to another interview. As beekeepers we need all the funding help we can get! I agree with Aaro= n & Joe that its stupid to bite the hand that tries to help us! Sincerely, Bob Harrison Article Title: Chemical stressors may weaken bees' immunity, researchers suggest Published:=20 Article Location: http://pubs.acs.org/cen/email/html/cen_email_cen_85_i37_8537notw3.html From Chemical & Engineering News http://www.cen-online.org A service of the American Chemical Society. .=20 --=20 This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 23:25:37 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: A history of the introduction of honey bee races into the United States In-Reply-To: <920512.42215.qm@web56408.mail.re3.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Hello All, > > Would anyone know where I can procure a copy of this > article? A topic of great intrest. Joe I have without a doubt got the issue but my bee magazines are stored in cedar lined large containers and on the top shelves in my building so heavy they can only be lifted by a fork truck. if you are not in a big hurry I will pull the magazine , make a copy of the article and snail mail to you. I have not got a scanner. If you would like to get faster you might contact ABJ and see if the girls might scan and email to you as they can simply go to the library and pull the copy. I am not sure if they provide the service or not but they do have quick access to the issue. A fee might be involved. My ABJ collection starts in 1927 but has many missing copies until the 70's and from then I only may miss a issue or two to current. I am missing a Feb 1999 ABJ issue if a person on the list has an extra. I used the copy in presentations in 1999 and the copy disappeared. Sincerely, Bob Harrison -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 20:32:52 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: Thank you Haagen-Dazs In-Reply-To: <362085.11809.qm@web56402.mail.re3.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline >Someone else responded, "yada yada like they even spec US honey in their product ... this kind of "greenwashing" is now common place in many many US manfacturers of food or whatever." Yes, it is common, but before painting all with the same brush, the facts are easy to confirm. To their credit, Haagen Dazs approached me and several others to field media requests in order to have someone who actually knew something about beekeeping answer reporters questions. I did ask them the source of the honey, since I considered the implications (although upon consultation with others, I would likely have taken Aaron's "graciously accept the donation" position). To set the record straight, they use clover honey from North and South Dakota, U.S.A. I suggested that they say so on their next printing of the label. Randy Oliver **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 23:55:15 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Ted_Hancock?= Subject: Re: Thank you Haagen-Dazs Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Tue, 19 Feb 2008 18:16:35 -0500, Aaron Morris wrote: another 3 or 4 pints. It's not exactly what my fat ass needs, but I'll make the sacrifice! This is only bee related in a roundabout sort of way. You know how Italian bees have trouble communicating with Carniolan bees who have trouble communicating with Caucasian bees? Well I don't mean to keep picking on Aaron and 'he who can not be named' but...I have noticed Americans talk funny. For example when they want to refer to their posterior they use the word "butt" or if they are wanting to be polite they will say, "ass". This is probably because they can picture George Bush or Hillary Clinton using such a term ("I'd like to kick Bill in the ass"). But...here in Canada we still revere the Queen. And no one can picture the queen making any reference to her posterior and ice cream... but if she were forced to, she might say, "it's not exactly what my bottom needs." Just an observation. It involved a queen so it's kinda bee related. Yr serf, Ted Thinking, he who can not be named should write more often, I miss him. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 22:17:09 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: Winter bees In-Reply-To: <007a01c87265$2368e740$6a3ab5c0$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Dick said> It is known > that older bees can reverse the changes to their physiology and once again > produce brood food. I also see this, Dick, when we make up nucs in the spring, and leave catch hives with a queen to catch the drift. I'm very curious how the vitellogenin /fat body development enters into this picture of reversal of HP gland atrophy. Again, the development of a VG test kit would be invaluable for answering these questions. Has anyone seen a reference for someone who has dissected out the HP glands to track their regeneration when field bees are forced to rear brood? Randy Oliver **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2008 05:17:12 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: Honey Wound Dressing Helps Prevent Foot Amputation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Honey Wound Dressing Helps Prevent Foot Amputation The Buzz About Medicinal Honey American Public Media, 2/19/2008 http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/2008/02/audio-honey-wound-dressing-helps.html A special kind of honey derived from the Manuka plant is showing up in doctor's offices as a wound remedy. Caitlan Carroll reports how some patients have seen dramatic results from the bee by-product... **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2008 08:12:11 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lionel Evans Subject: Re: Thank you Haagen-Dazs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As I sit here reading the posts about "NEGATIVE" things companies are doing and getting raked over the coals for trying to help beekeeping in the US, I wonder how many beekeepers buy "MADE IN USA"??????? Folks lets help find the problem of CCD and cure that and then see what needs to be said, Lionel **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2008 14:41:51 -0500 Reply-To: lloyd@rossrounds.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: new york bee keepers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Unfortunately, the law seems reasonably clear that the property tax exemption only applies to new construction. See http://www.assembly.state.ny.us/leg/?bn=A06524. If any find out different information please let me know. Lloyd -- Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2008 15:21:14 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: Thank you Haagen-Dazs Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I apologize to Hagen Daz and any one else offended. I fired from the hip and did not look deeper at the news releases and see the large sum they donated. I agree this is probably the most notable corporate support we've seen from any industry other then CA Almonds. Obviously there is corporate greenwashing going on and other entities using the bee crisis for their own benefit but Hagen Daz does not appear to be one of them although clearly this is also a good public relations campaign in addition to supporting a cause they believe in (win win for everyone). **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2008 07:20:58 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: CCD team & imidacloprid Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bob Harrison wrote: >"Among toxicants , one of the primary suspects behind CCD is the insecticide imidacloprid explains Jerry Hayes" from the same article: > Hayes, believes, however, that CCD probably has more than one cause. The poor nutrition that comes from eating only one type of pollen, such as that on almond trees, for several weeks at a time; the artificial diet of sugar syrup given to boost bee populations early in the growing season; the antibiotics administered to sick bees; and the stress of traveling are also part of the mix, he says. > "One of the confusing and frustrating things about CCD is that there are some tantalizing tidbits out there, but all of the collapsed hives don't seem to share a single common factor that could cause the problem," he notes. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2008 15:15:32 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Ian_Steppler?= Subject: Re: GMO based sugar syrup blend coming next Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>Too bad customers on this side didn't feel the same way. We have seen such advances in farming technology, and the possibilities are yet to be seen. Sound science is at work, a termendious amount of progress is being made, the soils of our farms are healthier than they ever have been, and the efficiencies these technologies have brought aid our farms sustainability. My opinion if from actual work with the crops itself. The EU is lifting some of the restriction it has on GM crops. Perhaps after it all, cheap and qualtiy food will always win an argument with consumers when the food itself is starting to cost a bit more, or even worse, become hard to find at all. If you can find me anywere, proof of adulterated honey due to that GM sugar beat crop growing in forageing distance from a hive, I think we would then have something to work with. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2008 15:35:57 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Monsanto U Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit If you ignore some of the political overtones I found this an interesting article about how beholden our University land grant system is to Big Ag companies and some insight into what small segments of the agriculture segment like organic farming or beekeeping interests are up against. http://gristmill.grist.org/story/2008/2/19/135544/260 **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2008 17:02:18 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: GMO based sugar syrup blend coming next In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The reaction to Haagen Dazs sort of mirrors the reaction to GMO. It is a "one size fits all'. Once the reality is explained, among the less rigid, rational though kicks in. GMO is a single entity only in that it describes a process. Most objections are not with modifying a plant, but in what is modified, such as BT resistance. Unfortunately, even on this list, GMO becomes a collective evil, instead of discussing the parts. So big companies are bad, even when they give money for CCD research, because big companies are bad. But then we get into details and things are not as bad as they seem. Again, only when rationality kicks in. Some, like Joe, felt the wrath of the terminally pure, for whom rational thought left long ago. Purity is the all-in-all GMO has been around for a long time and not just with soybeans, corn or sugar beets. There is GMO papaya. Why? Because without modifying it most of the Papaya crops in some areas would have been lost to disease. Bananas will probably be modified, because if they are not, we will lose all bananas to disease. GMO targets specific pests or diseases. It is just a faster way to do what we did for years, which is select for the traits we want. Even GMO corn is not just GMO. There is roundup ready and there is BT corn. Personally, I do not like BT corn just because it lends itself to create BT resistant insects, which is happening in nature right now. But roundup ready corn? Nothing wrong with that in my mind. Or disease resistant papaya? Again, nothing wrong. Bees near GMO corn? What kind of GMO corn, BT or roundup ready? Most developing countries welcome GMO as it can release them from tremendous reliance on pesticides and protect crops from diseases. A PBS special noted that only the rich countries can afford to ban GMO plants. So there is GMO and there is GMO. I would hope that some rational thought is exercised in discussing it and just what feature you might not like as it pertains to honey and bees. Like BIG CORPORATIONS and Haagen Dazs. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2008 17:16:49 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: CCD team & pesticides In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The problem with the studies and people cited is that there is no positive link, only a bunch of "maybes" and "could' . Plus, most of us did discuss the articles when they appeared long ago. A lot of water has since gone under that bridge, including the links to IAPV. So I have a problem associating that with my question. In any case, the original statement and question was- Statement- "Imidacloprid was registered on the basis of the Bayer research *you posted* which has largely been proven inaccurate now by the CCD team" Question- "How has the CCD team proved the data inaccurate? Love to hear from them." I know the EPA would want the proven inaccurate Bayer data so they can do something about it. I hope the CCD team has provided them with it. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2008 15:51:15 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Plaisted Subject: Re: GMO based sugar syrup blend coming next In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable My feeling on the GMO sugar beet crops, that most if not all will end up be= ing used to create ethenol, considering that sugar produces alot more ethen= ol per pound than corn does. But, that is just conjucture on my part. =20 Jimhttp://www.northernqueens.com/ _________________________________________________________________ Climb to the top of the charts!=A0Play the word scramble challenge with sta= r power. http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?icid=3Dstarshuffle_wlmailtextlink_ja= n= **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 03:39:15 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Winter bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 18/02/2008 04:46:25 GMT Standard Time, mtnhoney@ALLTEL.NET writes: Could adding young bees have solved your problem? One of the things I tried was adding a comb of brood in all stages on 17th April when I thought they were queenless. Chris **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 10:03:27 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Russ Dean Subject: Re: Honey Can Soothe a Burn MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/19/2008 5:04:20 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, editor@MEDIBEE.COM writes: http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/2008/02/honey-can-soothe-burn.html How you get the honey into that hornet nest first off. As seen in picture. Russ Dean **************Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living. (http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rachel-campos-duffy/ 2050827?NCID=aolcmp00300000002598) **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 10:31:26 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: CCD team & pesticides ( edit version) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Hello Bill & All, Bill says "no positive link" The CCD team found in the few samples they took up to 17 pesticides/sample with five per sample the average. 43 different pesticides were identified. At least 14 were systemic and seventeen different pesticides were found in pollen. The amounts are higher than the chemical company says they would be. Some of these sample bees had picked up the amounts in less than six weeks. > did discuss the articles when they appeared long ago. (on BEE-L) You guys keep discussing while some of us are confronting those we think are responsible for poisoning our bees! Discussing is not solving what many of us consider a growing problem. >appeared long ago? The whole CCD issue is not two years old yet! In its infancy! The ball is rolling and beekeepers are going to learn things about keeping bees alive, hopefully what other than normal causes is killing our bees and beekeeping as a whole should benefit from ongoing research. The CCD issue and the number of bees dying largely depends on who you are talking to. I continue to push for solutions for our problems as I know the beekeeping industry could NEVER afford to buy the research we are getting. My contacts report 4-5 areas are of main concern. Control of two of those areas has helped many beekeepers keep their bees alive last season. Those were mite and nosema control. Those having trouble I have spoke with are trying to control nosema with other than fumidil B. and in most cases has not worked. Three of the methods being used are thymol in syrup, honey B healthy and clorox in syrup. The honey B healthy crowd says the product does a better job on nosema than fumidil B but provide no test results. I know Randy is doing some testing and believe he has found the thymol in syrup to not control nosema and although some beekeepers use bleach in syrup the reason is not to control nosema. Does the list know of any testing which would verify the claims Honey B healthy controls nosema better than fumidil B (or even has an effect on nosema?) > "Imidacloprid was registered on the basis of the Bayer >> research *you posted* which has largely been proven inaccurate now by the >> CCD team" > I hate the constant repeating of things I have said before on BEE_L but > thanks to the CCD working group we now have found 14 systemic pesticides > in > dead hives. Maybe not yet a smoking gun but still a problem for the > chemical > maker. I will explain why its a problem. Also a very different problem > than > with other pesticide kills. With past pesticide kills (not systemic) the > beekeeper had to sue the applicator. With systemic you sue the maker. > Question- "How has the CCD team proved the data inaccurate? By doing the testing of dead bees and proving that systemic pesticides are being found in dead bees. Further testing will happen with the new research dollars further building the beekeepers case. Remember Bill the first systemic Bayer research (which registered imidacloprid) described a much different scenario concerning bees than the CCD team has discovered. Only my opinion but the early research will become problematic for the company as a higher number of bees from dead outs are found to contain LD50 levels of their systemic insecticide. > hear from them."( CCD team) I think the CCD team wants little to do with internet discussion lists. What purpose would it serve getting involved in an internet discussion? The CCD team talks to each other , the beekeepers involved ( which talk to me) and then publish every so often updates. Kim said around three thousand people attended the CCD meeting ( BC Feb. 2008) he covered. Almost all were PhD's. By comparison twice the number of people which attended the joint meeting of the ABF & AHPA. The number of people and the level of their expertise looking into CCD has the chemical companies concerned i will assure you. >> I know the EPA would want the proven inaccurate Bayer data so they can do >> something about it. We place little faith in the EPA resolving the issue. All you have to do is take a ride down memory lane and you will see the EPA has not been of much help in years gone past in our pesticide fights. Both national organizations feel ( as I do) that talks with the chemical companies are the first step. I have spoke with their reps myself. At first they would not return my calls but we have seen a small change which is encouraging. In my opinion it has came about because public opinion is clearly on the beekeepers side. A large sum of money is moving in the direction of the problem . Which is never a good thing if there is even the remote chance your product is causing some of the bee die -offs. Also we are slowly getting the proof *some* bee kills are related to their systemic products. bob -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 13:06:23 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: CCD team & pesticides ( edit version) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Thu, 21 Feb 2008 10:31:26 -0600, Bob Harrison wrote: > The CCD team found in the few samples they took up to 17 pesticides/sample > with five per sample the average. 43 different pesticides were identified. > At least 14 were systemic and seventeen different pesticides were found in > pollen. These kinds of findings in pollen have been going on for years, long before the massive annual fall bee losses. We have the intrumentation now to find even smaller minute traces of farm chems. No big story there, the stuff is our bodies in trace amounts too...so what. Bob you keep quoting Kim's column in BC and conveniently omitting the line that says they "found high levels of pesticides in beeswax with pyrethroids dominant. But the loads were amazing. Fluvalinate (with a half life of 5 yrs) was found from 4640-53800 ppb, the two breakdown products from coumophos from 8-18,600 ppb. There were more but these were the biggies" WOW take 5 seconds to digest those numbers........................................WOW is all I can say. I don't know about you Bob but I think the most people would read that to be that the vast majority of the contamination found in the combs was caused by BEEKEEPERS! Really the stories and annual enforcement actions in the dakotas and Mn are painting a clear picture up in the heartland of beekeeping that blue shop rags and bulk use of fluvalinate, amitraz and coumophos is the norm. You claim secrecy about the Bayer dirty dozen and imply that no one wants to talk about the Bayer connection but the real dirty secret that no one wants on the front page of the NYT is how beeks have for almost 2 decades now been dumping massive amounts of chems into their own hives! Remember 4640-53800 ppb!!!!! The cause of this contamination is somewhat understandable too as migratory beekeepers are squeezed with high operational costs, low honey prices and mite treatments that are not cheap or readily adapted to large operations. Synergy is talked about frequently in news releases concerning CCD. Synergy perhaps between the MASSIVE levels of beekeeper applied chems and the TRACE amounts of systemic or conventional pesticides? While its has always been murky as a swamp about the role of ag pesticides in massive region wide bees losses there's no argument that the MAJORITY of contamination in ppb found over and over again in combs is caused by beekeepers. Bob I feel that you're representing the old boy line of railing against the pesticide makers and applicators while burying your head in the sand about the self contamination issue or why would you selectively lift quotations? Like I said before on the next page 14 of that BC issue the survey showed 57% responsdents use these chemicals. Its not hard to figure out that while Ag pesticide kills do happen that its not a wide spread across the nation problem like 57% of the beeks using chems that contaminate their hives. No doubt that number is probably biased on the low side too because the blue shop rag folks are rather secretive about their "secret" blend of jug chems. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 13:13:10 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: GMO based sugar syrup blend coming next Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Wed, 20 Feb 2008 15:51:15 -0500, James Plaisted wrote: >My feeling on the GMO sugar beet crops, that most if not all will end up being used to create ethenol, considering that sugar produces alot more ethenol per pound than corn does. But, that is just conjucture on my part i agree that sugar beet is a good ethanol choice but drive I94 west through Nodak near the MN border and you can follow the trail of beets on the side of the hiway from the elevator all the way to the exit at the crystal sugar plants. around here the sugar syrup blends we get is beet sugar. in regards to Bill's good post on what are we really referring to on a concern for GMO beets. To me its a combination of the factors, since the varroa mite moved in the ways of adding foregin materials to our hives has increased. the corn syrup or sugar syrup we feed today is not likely the same moecular composition as 15 years ago. The pace of change to the environment we keep bees is quite rapid on a fragile insect like a honey bee. Sure the research appears to show nothing of concern on human health concerning GMO crops. There is a lot of yap about the protiens that are created in the DNA transformation. Should I trust the GMO industry or Monsanto and hope that there is no cause for concern? While we have no data to show a concern we have no real data or good feeling either that the USDA, FDA or EPA is not too highly influenced by Monsanto and the like. How many universities are looking "independently" at the risks of GMO's? Like who's going to fund that? In addition I'm not aware of a single research paper that looked at GMO HFCS and any risk to feeding to honeybees, so frankly I don't think anyone could say either way its ok or not? since they have not made any large scale runs of GMO beet syrup yet and anyone fed it out how can we say its ok? does anyone believe that any testing or research will be done to look at GMO sugar syrup relative to bee feed? How many times have we seen technology that appears benign turn out later to be a different animal? Take something as simple as flexible plastic jugs and baby related products. Phthalates in those plastics are now being more seriously looked at. How many years has this been going on and nobody asked the question? Having my sugar syrup supply go GMO is just another reason for me to go all in with the Russian bees and try and not feed at all. If I feed GMO sugar syrup is it not a variable that has changed in the long term "experiment" if you will, I'm running on trying to keep my bees healthy and alive? I could keep bees on plastic foundation and frames, drop a super boost pheremone in for good measure, feed them pollen subs based on soy, and GMO HFCS or now sugar syrup blend, put them on a truck move them around and put in ag chemical environments for pollination. I could use the midwest migratory standard blue shop rag mite mix of the day and feed tylosin in the fall along with fumidil. once the frames get nice and contaminated I can blame the pesticide companies or even CCD for my sick bees. or i can keep my bees stationary, minimize or stop using any feed at all and if I do not use a known GMO source of sugar. keep them on wax foundation and wood frames, run resistant bees and never treat or only use soft treatments, i'll shake and bake my FB and never use tylosin or TM. i'll rotate my comb just because its a good idea. if my bees die I can blame myself or mother nature. if you see my drift the concern is that we have another variable that is getting us further and further from a wild hive of bees in a tree 25 ft of the ground. when you remove all of the "variables" in your control you have less to "blame" when the bees don't look right. so call me old fashioned but I don't want to change. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 14:14:32 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: CCD team & pesticides ( edit version) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit So, after all that, what we have come to is that pesticides can be found in colonies, CCD is still not pinned down, nosema control is a necessity, and lots of people have their opinions on what is the bedrock problem. My concern in this discussion is that imidacloprid was singled out as the cause of CCD. It obviously has not been implicated as the cause, but it is certainly not good for bees. The EPA pesticide fact sheet says that. If the main issue is that the dosage is too high as well as its persistence is too long that it kills bees even when applied according to label instructions, then the government should be involved, which brings us full circle, back to my original question. Part of my problem with this discussion is I also know two large scale commercial beekeepers who blamed imidacloprid as the cause of all their problems, well before CCD, yet facts show otherwise. It is just too easy to cover your practices with anything that may fit your template. So, if I keep asking for concrete data, I hope you understand. BTW, there are excellent studies on imidacloprid and its effect on bees and bumblebees, that show a negative effect. But there are also studies that show that normal, IAW label instructions applications show no problem for bees. Just in case anyone thinks I am a shill for pesticides, I have used Sevin in the distant past and none for the past five years. My apples, peaches and veggies go untreated. I have been a memember of the Maine Organic Farmer's and Gardners Association and practice organic farming (within reason. I hate cucumber beetles early in the season). If imidacloprid is a massive bee killer, I am all for putting it off the market. But, as noted, what I have seen is the opposite. It was not imidacloprid but the beekeeper. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 14:31:13 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: GMO based sugar syrup blend coming next In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Brian Fredericksen wrote: > > the corn syrup or sugar syrup we feed today is not likely the > same moecular composition as 15 years ago. I have difficulty with that since sugar (sucrose) has been sugar since the dawn of time, and to change its molecular composition would make it something other than sugar. In addition, to make it you go through a long process of refinement. That would seem to make the end product exactly what it was before GMO. Most concerns about GMO crops are related to the effect of the plant or fruit, unmodified, on the environment or us. So if we eat BT corn, what does that do? Ids BT in the corn and how much? Or is it in the pollen and what does that do to bees? Those are valid concerns, but not if you take the product, like sugar beets or corn, and put it through the processing that results in sugar. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 11:22:08 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: joe carson Subject: Re: CCD team & pesticides ( edit version) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am in Croatia at the moment speaking at the Adriatic Bee Congress. The p= roduct NO=AEEVIT is used here widely for internal integrity. They can clai= m more than I can in the US. It is the only product used in Croatia, Bosni= a, Slovenia, Serbia and other close countries. They have 5 years testing t= rials and field. It is a natural tincture from a specific source from this= area. =20 Using Croat keyboard so spelling might not come out right. Dr. Joe Carson _________________________________________________________________ Shed those extra pounds with MSN and The Biggest Loser! http://biggestloser.msn.com/= **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 12:27:20 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: CCD team & pesticides ( edit version) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Hi All, Interesting discussion! Bob, I am polishing up my alternative nosema treatment article today to send off for publication, and will let you know when I post to my website. The nonstop rain in Calif has prevented me from taking samples to test the efficacy of HoneyBHealthy--will do asap. Brian, the synergistic effects of Amitraz and other beekeeper-applied miticides with each other, and with other pesticides are a hot topic definitely deserving of study. Beekeepers using Amitraz alone appear to have healthy bees. I have been on the phone most of the morning talking with commercial beekeepers, trying to determine why some are bringing 99% of their colonies into almonds, packed with bees, whereas others are bringing in 50% or less, with poor colonies. There are trends. Bob appears to be right about varroa and nosema. Bob is also right about researchers talking to each other. There is lots of collaboration going on. Progress may appear to be slow if your colonies are dying, but there are a lot of dedicated researchers performing meticulous, time-consuming hard work to try to get to the root of our problems. My hat is off to them! Randy Oliver **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 16:15:29 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: CCD team & pesticides ( edit version) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Thu, 21 Feb 2008 14:14:32 -0500, Bill Truesdell wrote: >If the main issue is that the dosage is too high as well as its >persistence is too long that it kills bees even when applied according >to label instructions, then the government should be involved, which >brings us full circle, back to my original question. > as i have mentioned before i manage 1800 apples trees. Bill hints at a real issue not discussed much and that is following labels. in my 14 years as a grower, meeting other growers, talking to chem salespeople, going to conventions etc the range of knowledge by apple growers is surprise - the same as in beekeeping. you have a normal distribution of people on each extreme who either use way below the labelled dose and err on the side of caution and those who ignore the label and ramp up the dose and perhaps spray during bloom or other more risky times of the season or day. blaming a specific chemical may miss the fact that there are many beeks exposed to spray that is put down responsibly and other beeks who have been badly damaged by ignorant or unethical spray applicators. i don't think one can credibly make a blanket statement about a chem being the sole source for our wide spread bee losses, there is just too much variability in beekeepers, climate, applicator knowledge and crop planting patterns. when we have a national crisis which we do now in overall bee health i beleive we must look at variables that are common to all affected (like disease, virus and mite) that are not regional in nature - pesticide use seems to variable and regional IMO has imidacloprid caused some bee die off? no doubt and there is such a wide range of crop uses for that material. if Imidacloprid was this evil wide spread problem that killed bees were ever and at any dose it was applied we would not even be having this discussion and quite likely the feds or other states would be onto it and there would be attempts to de-list the product for use. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 16:33:05 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: CCD team & pesticides ( edit version) In-Reply-To: <47BDCD98.6060607@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Bill, Brian & All, I have tried very hard to explain the issue but both you guys keep missing the point. Bill said: > My concern in this discussion is that imidacloprid was singled out as the > cause of CCD. It obviously has not been implicated as the cause,but For the last time I will say : Up to this date is no *single* thing which has been found to have caused CCD!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Why would you believe such a thing? I never singled out imidacloprid as the sole cause of CCD. I certainly believe some of the reported CCD losses were from the new neonicotinoids. If you had read what Jerry Hayes said imidacloprid is IMPLICATED as a suspect cause! Bill said: > I also know two large scale commercial beekeepers who blamed imidacloprid > as the cause of all their problems, well before CCD, yet facts show > otherwise. Only two? The CCD team has NEVER been able to say systemic pesticides are not one of the 4-5 suspect problems implicated as one of the possible causes of the 2006/2007 bee die off. Actually the name colony collapse disorder should be changed as the name indicates that the die off was caused by a single cause. I think most looking into the issue know that the die off was not caused by a single cause. The die off of 2006-2007 has not been found to be caused by a single anything and in my opinion never will be! I am still phoning beekeepers but the higher number I call the higher number claiming losses related to the new neonictinoids. Tommorrow calling two bootheel beekeepers. the Missouri state entomologist, commercial beekeeper in arkansas and another in alabama. I Spoke with David Vanderdusen and Steve from Canada today. Heard from California. No hive shortage this year in almonds. Certain beeks still having troubles. Others the best bees in years! it was not > imidacloprid but the beekeeper. At the Savannah ABF convention which I attended, took notes, and *recorded* the Beltsville Bee lab reported its finding on levels of fluvalinate and coumaphos in old comb. The numbers closely matched those Kim used and Brian wows at. Since then I have been involved with a 50,000 hive operation and talks with Beltsville over those figures. A couple of us( myself and another )decided to replace comb. The others chose to keep the comb with the levels Brian said wow about. Today both the hives with the new comb and the contaminated comb are raising strong hives. In fact I lost a bet over the issue. I do not regret my choice to change out comb but the other beekeeper did. Replacing comb in my opinion is a good thing but I can say truthfully that the levels in hives treated with fluvalinate and coumaphos have not caused *those* beekeepers any problems. The proof is in the thousands of hives using the comb and still producing strong colonies. With my contacts I am very familiar with what is on those shop towels and in almost all cases its the same mitacides which have been registered for use around the world against mites. However I am in the commercial beekeeper loop which many beekeepers are not. Before apistan was registered the bee labs used those methods and taught beekeepers how to make the formula. A higher number of tests are run in commercial beekeepers yards than has ever been done by the USDA-ARS and certainly with higher numbers of hives. Here is what Beltsville said at Savannah: If you use either mitacide over and over the amount in comb levels off at a certain level. The first year of use is lower than the second year but the fifth year is about the same as the second year. There is however a third spike on the mass spec machine from comb which has had both used. I elected to remove all my comb which had ever had fluvalinate or coumaphos used. others did not. Six years later I can say that the beekeepers which did not take my advice and change comb have got hives thriving. When I asked researchers to explain why those beekeepers did as good as the guys which replaced all comb here was the answer: Worldwide tests on high PPM of fluvalinate and coumaphos in comb only showed two areas of concern. 1. drone problems 2. queen rearing issues. Now the above is of little concern to the large commercial beekeeper which does not rear his own queens and replaces all queens each year. Those beekeepers when given the choice of comb total replacement (what I did) as apposed to finding a few drone layers among supercedure queens chose to continue on with the comb on which in most cases apistan and checkmite legally had been used. I know the subject was brought up in California and the USDA_ARS people said its a good idea to rotate comb ( I agree) and some larva kill *might* be related to the fluvalinate & coumaphos comb. Interesting but not what I have observed. I have said the above before but do so now for the last time. We will have to agree to disagree! I have received emails form other list members wondering why you guys do not understand what I am saying. I have had enough ( as Aaron would say!) of this subject! bob -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 12:57:47 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Subject: Bleach in Syrup MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I've never heard of bleach in syrup for winter feeding. What is it supposed to accomplish? Is there any report of success? How much is added per gallon of syrup? Thanks much. Mike **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 18:40:07 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: GMO based sugar syrup blend coming next Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Thu, 21 Feb 2008 14:31:13 -0500, Bill Truesdell >I have difficulty with that since sugar (sucrose) has been sugar since >the dawn of time, and to change its molecular composition would make it >something other than sugar. > It is thought that cane sugar was first used by man in Polynesia from where it spread to India. In 510 BC the Emperor Darius of what was then Persia invaded India where he found "the reed which gives honey without bees". The secret of cane sugar, as with many other of man's discoveries, was kept a closely guarded secret whilst the finished product was exported for a rich profit. > It was the major expansion of the Arab peoples in the seventh century AD that led to a breaking of the secret. When they invaded Persia in 642 AD they found sugar cane being grown and learnt how sugar was made. As their expansion continued they established sugar production in other lands that they conquered including North Africa and Spain. > Sugar was only discovered by western Europeans as a result of the Crusades in the 11th Century AD. Crusaders returning home talked of this "new spice" and how pleasant it was. The first sugar was recorded in England in 1099. The subsequent centuries saw a major expansion of western European trade with the East, including the importation of sugar. It is recorded, for instance, that sugar was available in London at "two shillings a pound" in 1319 AD. This equates to about US$100 per kilo at today's prices so it was very much a luxury. http://www.sucrose.com/lhist.html **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 16:43:43 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Grant Gillard Subject: Re: A history of the introduction of honey bee races into the United States Comments: cc: naturebee@yahoo.com In-Reply-To: <920512.42215.qm@web56408.mail.re3.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Joe, My ABJ back issue supply is large, but I lift weights so I don't need a forklift. Bob, if you need some help, give me a call and I'll come over! Back to the issue at hand, I have those two issues. Send me an address for snail mail as I don't have a scanner either. I'll gladly copy and mail to you. No charge. Glad to help. If you're still bent on scanning them, I'd even go so far as to mail you the magazines, but I'd like to have them back. Grant Jackson, MO --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 18:21:39 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: A history of the introduction of honey bee races into the United States In-Reply-To: <277590.32578.qm@web31606.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello Bob, Grant and All, Thanks so much for offering assistance! I’ve had allot of responses to my inquiry. I want to thank all that offered help! I need to say for those in the process digging up the article for me, that I just received a copy of the article from a Bee-L member. Thanks again! Joe http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/HistoricalHoneybeeArticles ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 22:00:52 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: A history of the introduction of honey bee races into the United States In-Reply-To: <277590.32578.qm@web31606.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Grant, >, but I lift weights so I don't need a forklift. Even as i downsize and eventually get down to a couple hives the forklift stays. So many uses around the farm ( great for big bales). I often have advised a new would be commercial beekeeper to buy a loader when he reaches 100 hives. Makes the whole operation so much easier and should be considered as an investment. I bought a farm tractor with a loader 30 years ago to move 55 gallon barrels. I wrote off the cost from my business. Today the tractor is worth three times what I paid for the tractor. While in Florida i saw a beekeeper sell a 610 Bobcat to another beekeeper for $6,000. After the sale was made the the new owner went happily on his way. the seller said he hated to see the 610 go as other than a few minor problems the Bobcat had given great service for around 20 years on the bee farm. He said he had paid around a $1000 for the 610 around 20 years ago. > Bob, if you need some help, give me a call and I'll come over! I am looking for some part time help to pull and extract honey if the young guys which have helped before will not help this year. Then you won't need to pump iron for a few weeks. I used to keep my bee magazines in boxes and then a mouse chewed a hole and ruined some. Then I kept in plastic totes but still not the best storage. Then I found three large foot lockers which were cedar lined. I keep ABJ in one and BC in the other and odds and ends in the other. I am not a collector as a true collect does not want magazines which have writting or minor tears. I am interested in the information. I have a friend from Alabama which is a collector I met on beesource and when he buys a collection he sends me his magazines which are not pristine and which he has duplicates of. When I go on the road I take usually around ten years of ABJ or BC with me to read at night. I used to take the very old magazines but now I like to reread the magazines from the middle 80's to date. Those are the years I feel are the most informative. I never throw a bee magazine away. I bundle duplicates and donate to bee auctions. Thanks for taking care of Joe! My footlockers are on the top shelf of some heavy metal shelves and I would guess each footlocker with magazines weighs 300-400 pounds . The shelf is about ten feet from the floor. I set the forks in front of the shelf and then slide on to the forks. I do not know of another way to get down other than unloading. Each year is in a bag with the year plus a listing of articles I might need to refer to and the issue. Are you getting the ice storm Grant? We are on the northern edge and received around an inch of sleet. Snow tomorrow. bob -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2008 01:18:33 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juanse Barros Subject: Nozevit MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Joe Any clues on which plants they use for the tincture? After your first post talking about Nozevit I been googling for the potential plants and the word Matico appear very frequently, however the "popular" name of that plant refers me to more than one possibility on the scientific names. At the same time Matic and Matice means "queen" or mother in Slovenian (matriarca), so Matico could be the same in Croatian or other local lenguage. Our chilean Matico http://www.florachilena.cl/Niv_tax/Angiospermas/Ordenes/Lamiales/Buddlejaceae/matico.htm is used for intestinal problems and other medical uses http://www.mundonuevo.cl/areas/Areas_Tematicas/Terapias_Naturales/plantas_medicinales/matico.php -- Juanse Barros J. APIZUR S.A. Carrera 695 Gorbea - CHILE +56-45-271693 08-3613310 http://apiaraucania.blogspot.com/ juanseapi@gmail.com **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * ****************************************************