From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 11:09:49 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-87.0 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,AWL, MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79ACD4907F for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 11:03:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SG3YWt017258 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 11:03:39 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 11:03:35 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0805C" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 164953 Lines: 3773 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 21:20:05 -0700 Reply-To: deelusbybeekeeper@yahoo.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Interesting observation In-Reply-To: <482B5B88.8000404@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Bill Truesdell, > A little background- for the first time in 17 years of > keeping bees I lost all my colonies. (It was also the > first year I did not treat for Varroa since my small cell > would fix that.) > Reply: Questions then: How long on the small cell, or actually when and how started, and who was manufacturer of the small cell used, as it does make a difference. How many hives involved? Also, was artificial feed used? Also drones culled at all for first year? Also, all year no treatments at all, just not no treatments in the fall, buat you went all year without treatments, including acids? I am asking this because in our/my second regression down to 4.9mm small cell we made ourselves and started off the bat in the spring, for all first year to work with, we also went from close to 1,000 hives to 104 not making it thru (told ahead of time we would lose 90% bees that couldn't make the transition by USDA as they would not be able to probably regress having lost too many needed genetics/traits necessary.) We also culled drones to no more then 10% in building back on any one frame drawnout. But from there we built back redoing all foundations/combs used. Dee A. Lusby **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 03:51:27 -0700 Reply-To: naturebee@yahoo.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: A Spring without Bees ( but weak "immune systems") In-Reply-To: <3dcef4a10805141854u6a18309dkaa7dcdd613ab4aa0@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > > >I may have read the posts incorrectly since you > came to a different > > conclusion, but it looked like Jim was referring to > the speculation as to > > "weakened immune system". IMO, it is imposible to move forward in finding soultions to any problem, without engaging in a little of what seems to be a bad word around here,,,, "speculation". If it helps where the speculation comes from, here’s some speculation from experts: Or when experts speculate, is it called a ‘hypothesis’ ;) "...Stress could compromise the immune system of bees making colonies more susceptible to disease...." COLONY COLLAPSE DISORDER WORKING GROUP PATHOGEN SUB-GROUP PROGRESS REPORT http://maarec.cas.psu.edu/ccdppt/pathogensub-groupprojectmay142007.pdf Pettis, J, D. vanEngelsdorp, and D. Cox-Foster Best Wishes, Joe feralbeeproject.com **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 06:54:54 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: Re: africanized bee questions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Q: Are there any restrictions on knowingly keeping African bees in an apiary situation in the US? Section 174. Keeping of diseased and banned bees prohibited; existence of disease to be reported. 4. All species and subspecies of bees which have been determined by the commissioner to cause injury, directly or indirectly, to this state's useful bee population, crops, or other plants and all bees, beehives, bee fixtures or appurtenances infected with, or exposed to, contagious or infectious diseases of bees, or infested with, or exposed to, insects or parasitic organisms adversely affecting bees, or with or to species or subspecies of bees which have been determined by him to cause injury, directly or indirectly, to this state's useful bee population, crops, or other plants, are hereby declared to be nuisances to be abated as hereinafter described. 5. If any inspection made by the commissioner or his duly authorized representative discloses that any apiary, appliances, structures, colonies, or comb constitute a nuisance within the meaning of this section, the commissioner or his duly authorized representatives may with the cooperation and consent of the owner or person in charge immediately proceed to abate the nuisance by destroying or treating such colonies and equipment, or he may order the owner or person in charge to destroy or treat such colonies or equipment as may by be deemed advisable. New York State Department of Agriculture and Markets CIRCULAR 807 Article 15 of the Agriculture and Markets Law http://www.masterbeekeeper.org/resources.htm **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 21:07:47 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: Interesting observation In-Reply-To: <482B5B88.8000404@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > > >Which led me to an observation. I wonder how many beekeepers who enjoy > success are actually isolated beekeepers? Bill, this is a common theme I hear from beekeepers all over. Those in isolated apiaries tend to have fewer problems, and have colonies that last longer with minimal or no mite control. Randy Oliver **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 21:29:33 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Cross pollination barrier question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline This was sent to me--anyone have experience? I have a small seed company and wish to know how bees movement is affected by a densely forested area (second growth fir/cedar forest) in the Pacific Northwest. Does the forested area act as a vertical buffer to their movement? Is their any documentation of this I can review. We usually isolate seed crops from crossing varieties by 1/4 mile but I',m wondering if we can reduce the distance if we have a forested buffer between. Randy Oliver **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 08:38:25 -0400 Reply-To: lloyd@rossrounds.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Re: africanized bee questions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Waldig asked if there are any restrictions on keeping Africanized bees in the US. Florida and Georgia have some kind of protocol concerning maintaining hives that are overly agressive. AFAIK, Florida's part of this is not enforced and, perhaps more accurately, there may not be any enforcement provisions. Florida has a dilemna. On the one hand widespread fears of honey bees may keep tourists and/or retirees away. On the other hand the Orange industry is very important and some 80% of the crop requires pollination. I believe that growers do not pay for pollination. Jerry Hayes, et. al. seem to be doing a great job at managing the potentially conflicting interests. Georgia, of course, want to protect their queen breeding industry. NYS, where I am located, has some sort of crazy provision that allows Ag & Markets to destroy (or cause to be destroyed) hives that are so agressive that they are deemed to be a threat to the public safety. This provision, like some others, was sneaked into legislation (or rules and regulations) without prior discussion with the major beekeeping groups in the state. As a practical matter samples of bees from *some* extremely agressive hives are sent for analysis of whether they are Africanized. If they are so deemed, the hive has to be destroyed. DUH! Why only those hives deemed to be Africanized and not those hives that are equally agressive and are reported back as xx% (less than 50%) Africanized? Why not equally agressive hives regardless of whether they are deemed to be Africanized? DUH! Why does THE STATE (aka Big Brother) have to tell beekeepers to destroy overly-agressive hives? If they will not act responsibly, let beekeepers keep them...and be sued for all they are worth by someone who is hurt/suffers damages/killed! What are we coming to as a society when we need THE STATE to assure we take responsibility for our actions? DUH! And what irritates me the most is that while we have 30-40 beekeepers who winter in Florida every year, and inevtibly 'bring back' Africanized hives, and those beekeepers know just exactly which hives those are, THE STATE does not go looking for them as they (the beekeepers so mentioned) are (mostly) treated with kid gloves. These hives are throwing off swarms and their drones are going their job. But THE STATE would rather involve themselves in more foolish matters such as searching for AFB. As you can tell, the NYS Inspection Program is not my favorite subject. Lloyd -- Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 10:03:44 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: africanized bee questions Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lloyd Spear wrote: > We have 30-40 beekeepers who winter in Florida every year, and inevitably 'bring back' Africanized hives, and those beekeepers know just exactly which hives those are ... These hives are throwing off swarms and their drones are doing their job. Fair point. Suppose someone sets a yard across the street from you. You suspect African bes, and are concerned that African swarms may invade your colonies and usurp the queen (which they will do). What do *you* think should happen next? pb **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 10:39:43 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Steve_Noble?= Subject: Cross pollination barrier question Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I have a friend who has a couple hives right smack in the middle of just such a forestd area. His bees not only have to go up and over the Cedar and Douglas Fir trees but they have to travel about a quarter mile or more to get to the closest forage. You can see them zooming up over the trees so no I do not think it would provide a barrier if what he is growing is attractive to honeybees. But that's a big if isn't it? The other thing that he might not be considering is that bumble bees are usually abundant in such situations around here. They seem to go after a much broader range of flowers than honeybees do. It should be noted that my friend has not had much success in beekeeping, though. The fact that he is in the middle of the woods may be a contributing factor, but there are other factors to be sure. Steve Noble **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 10:47:06 -0400 Reply-To: lloyd@rossrounds.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Re: africanized bee questions In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Peter asks '(you) are concerned that African swarms may invade your colonies and usurp the queen (which they will do). What do *you* think should happen next?' I think I could call my neighbor and work things out with him. If he is a cantankerous old coot (perhaps like myself) and won't change queens, my next step would be the same as any dispute with a neighbor...I certainly would not even consider calling THE STATE. I really have no idea what that next step would be. But all of us have disputes with neighbors over all kinds of matters and those of us who have survived have generally been successful at working things out...without calling the cops. Lloyd -- Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 15:00:29 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "deknow@netzero.net" Subject: Re: africanized bee questions Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit -- Peter Borst wrote: Fair point. Suppose someone sets a yard across the street from you. You suspect African bes, and are concerned that African swarms may invade your colonies and usurp the queen (which they will do). >>>this is an interesting question. what if the bees are not "african" but interfere with your local mating program? what if the hives are really strong, and start to rob your hives out? what if they are packed with mites or nosema spores? what if there is limited forage in your area, and the additional hives cause shortages? what if the beekeeper across the street open feeds when you are trying to collect honey? what if the beekeeper across the street has weak hives, initiates robbing (your bees robbing his/hers), and then puts reverse cone traps on the entrances to trap your bees? >>>there are lots of things to be worried about when someone moves hives near yours. >>>deknow **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 08:12:44 -0700 Reply-To: deelusbybeekeeper@yahoo.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: africanized bee questions In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Peter: > Fair point. Suppose someone sets a yard across the street > from you. You suspect African bes, and are concerned that African swarms > may invade your colonies and usurp the queen (which they will do). Reply: Bees have been replacing bees for centuries in other hives in the way of queens that are failing (poorly mated,old,sick). With today's queens being sold that are having to be replaced sometimes twice a year, or are shown to be not very good due to very bad brood laying patterns makes one wonder if the bees are actually trying to right what man keeps doing badly again and again. Dee **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 09:44:01 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?D._Murrell?=" Subject: Re: Interesting observation Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Bill and Everyone, Sorry to hear about your losses. Did the mites get them or was it something else? I too, am beeless at present. I moved to Florida and gave away all my hives to a commercial beekeeper in Wyoming. The small cell hives are now interspersed throughout his operation. Individual hives were used to fill empty spots on palettes. So, are dispersed. They are being managed the same way as all his other hives except for mite treatments. They are not being treated for mites. And are run in two story deeps. He sends about half of his bees to the almonds. But left the small cell hives behind, last season, as he is evaluating small cell for himself. They will probably become part of the migratory operation if they pan out at home. In a month, I'll be back in Wyoming and visit with him. Maybe I'll even get the chance to examine a few of those small cell hives. He has indicated that, so far, they are no more productive than his other hives. When I had them, they were better than twice as productive. I suspect that your thoughts, about different management practices/skill level having a major impact on small cell beekeeping, are also correct. I still have a few things I want try and will be starting over again. So, I will be setting out a few swarm traps when I get back to Wyoming. I.ve never messed with them before. Maybe I can catch some AHBs and a cup full of SHBs brought back from the almonds :>) Are the bees still swarming in your area? Maybe that empty equipment would attract a swarm or two. Regards Dennis **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 17:21:20 -0400 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Cross pollination barrier question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I parked bees in sometimes very small clearings in the middle of the Jefferson and George Washington National Forests in VA, and WVA. Given that the goal here was to gather Sourwood nectar from clear-cuts and burned areas, I would be placing trailers at "Point A" along a fire road or old logging road, and expecting the bees to find and exploit blooming clearings at "Point B", sometimes as much as 1 mile away. Access to the exact clearings was often difficult or impossible due to steep terrain and limited roads They had little trouble making fine crops. So: 1) Trees are no barrier at all if the winds are calm. Bees can fly above the treetops with ease, and will "terrain follow" above tree-top height without any problem, dropping down into clearings as they need to. This is why a compass is such a useful tool when bee-lining, so you can at least get a direction vector for the bee you see flying up and away over a ridgeline. 2) 1/4 Mile is not going to assure you a complete lack of crosses, as any one hive will forage for several miles in all directions at a minimum. 1/4 mile certainly is better than nothing, but if you have two kinds of blooms blooming at the same time 1/4 mile apart, any hive within range of either plot would certainly be within range of both plots. 3) Will bees fly around wooded areas rather than over? If the day is windy, they may do this, assuming they find a headwind if they go above treetop level. A headwind is much more costly in terms of energy than some extra distance to "go around". **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 17:32:34 -0400 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Pesticides In-Reply-To: <3dcef4a10805140918w72227711jb267b8e16988fa23@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dee said: >>> the same chemicals used on crops are officially >>> used in hives also and you cannot have it both ways I asked Dee: >> Could you please list specific miticides >> having the dual-usage you claim exists? And, I of course meant "OFFICIALLY used in hives and on crops", just as Dee clearly said. Randy added: > Fluvalinate is registered for hive use as Apistan, > amitraz in not currently registered in this country, > but was, under the name Miticur. Amitraz cannot be OFFICIALLY used in hives. Any detection of amitraz in hives or honey at any level would be grounds for destruction of the honey as adulterated by pesticides not approved for use in connection with honey. > Fluvalinate--used to control some 30 pests But on what actual crops, if any? Where might it be used where bees would be placed for either honey or pollination? I was asking for a mechanism where confusion might result as to the origin of the pesticide in a beehive, and I am pretty sure that this would be very rare. > Coumaphos--used as sheep and cattle dip And bees are not at all likely to come in contact with any of these substances either, now are they? > The active ingredient in Hivastan is an ag chem > (I choose not to specify here) It is "Fenpyroximate", CAS # 134098-61-6 aside from being registered for spider mites in greenhouses, what food-related ag applications might it have? I don't know of any. > There are several other ag miticides used off > label by commercial beeks. I also choose not > to list here. But Dee did not mention, and I did not ask about, illegal "off-label" use. So why the semantics? The bottom line is that, except for beekeeper MISuse, there is very little chance of overlap between beekeeper use of a miticide and agricultural use of the same chemical on bee-related crops, so any level at all detected in wax, honey, or bees is highly likely to be solely due to the beekeeper's actions. Jerry B can wade in if he wants, and explain in detail exactly how many orders of magnitude difference there would be between residues from beekeeper use in the hive and residues resulting from foraging on crops that would somehow be treated with miticides, but I think that this point should be somewhat obvious. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 17:37:52 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: africanized bee questions Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit deknow wrote: >>>>this is an interesting question. what if the bees are not "african" but interfere with your local mating program? what if the hives are really strong, and start to rob your hives out? what if they are packed with mites or nosema spores? what if there is limited forage in your area, and the additional hives cause shortages? what if the beekeeper across the street open feeds when you are trying to collect honey? what if the beekeeper across the street has weak hives, initiates robbing (your bees robbing his/hers), and then puts reverse cone traps on the entrances to trap your bees? Non of those things are regulated by NY State. As Lloyd points out, neighbors should be able to work out such problems. In the matter of contagious diseases or invasive pests (African bees included), there are laws on the books. It is not against the law to have a mean hive if it isn't bothering anybody. If your keeping bees constitutes a nuisance, there are plenty of local ordinances. Like, if you put 50 hives in a lot by an elementary school or public park. The NY State inspectors check apiaries for Foulbrood (illegal), small hive beetles, varroa levels, fire ants, African bees (illegal) and recently we have been doing a lot of sampling for nosema. We are trying to cover a lot of different interests here. There is the beekeeper, the bee industry, the fruit industry, the public, the state; they all have a different point of view on what should and should not be regulated. I view bee inspection like automobile safety inspection. If everybody had a safe well maintained car there would be no need for it. We have annual inspection in NY; that way you can be pretty sure the guy that is driving toward you at 65 MPH has functioning brakes and steering. He might be drunk. So if you want to keep bees, you are going to want some assurance that the hives down the road aren't rotten with AFB or Africanized, say. If the owner will let you look at them, fine. If not, NY State has the prerogative to inspect any hives in the state and abate violations. In the past, there were many abuses of the system and a lot of people have soured on bee inspection over the years. I joined the "force" to try to change that. Any suggestions are welcomed; contact me off list if you prefer. Peter Borst Ithaca, NY **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 20:45:35 -0400 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: World's Record For Amount Of Press Coverage versus Actual Number Of Bees Collected MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I got my second swarm call of spring today. This is not interesting in the least, until one recalls that I now live full-time in Manhattan. It seems that this has been a good spring for bees, as there have been zero swarms in NYC in recent memory. Today's swarm was a decent sized swarm of 3 to 4 lbs of bees in a tree at a park at 68th St and Riverside Dr, right on the Hudson River. Bee-Vac used, no excitement, and joy of joys, Parks and Recreation even had a Purchase Order for me. The first was a much smaller swarm, but got much more attention as it settled down on a corner of a major street. More words were written than bees collected, resulting in my annual 15 seconds of "fame": http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/story?section=news/local&id=6129080 http://www.wnbc.com/news/16195065/detail.html http://www.myfoxny.com/myfox/pages/ContentDetail?contentId=6491303 http://www.nypost.com/seven/05082008/news/regionalnews/upper_east_hive_1 09895.htm http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/2008/05/08/2008-05-08_mysterious_swa rm_of_bees_on_upper_east_s.html It even made the wire services: http://www.upi.com/NewsTrack/Quirks/2008/05/08/bees_swarm_new_york_stree t_corner/7134/print_view/ Clearly, it was a slow news day. One lousy swarm of bees issuing from places unknown, and from the reaction, it might have as well been an unexploded nuclear warhead! :) I was called by NYPD Office of Emergency Management, who got my name from the Bronx Zoo, where I keep a few hives. By the time I got down to the site, there were: a) 14 NYPD Officers b) 1 "Emergency Management" Truck c) 1 Fire Truck d) Half a dozen firemen e) Crime scene tape around the entire area f) Not just one but three news film crews g) A newspaper photographer h) Several reporters from print and radio i) A crowd of civilians hungry for diversion j) A dinky little swarm - maybe a pound of bees total k) Crowd-control metal barriers that arrived to cordon off the entire sidewalk until the stragglers drifted off back to the hive from which the swarm issued. While all beekeepers can expect audiences for the obscure brand of magic we perform with a spray bottle of water, a whisk-broom brush, and a cardboard box, this was the first time I've ever had a swarm call that included a press conference! :) The photographers wanted me to put on a "bee suit", and I explained that I did not even own one. They begged with me to not make it look so easy/trivial/boring, so I out on a veil for a bit, and lit a smoker. (Dance, monkey boy, Dance!) When you give them the visuals they want, you can be a little demanding that they not hype "danger" or "threat". I gave both swarms to Roger Repohl who keeps bees for community gardens up in the Bronx, who had asked about a split from one of my hives. Perhaps he can feed them into a decent size before fall. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 20:52:15 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Alf Subject: Honey flow & swarming MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, Still learning. This is my fourth year. It's kinda tough to figure out how and what to do without a mentor present or to observe in his/her yard. I do belong to our regional and state organizations, but folks are working or are in the beeyard. Yup, me too. Last year I read in one of the journals about a Master Beekeeper who saw his first swarm. That's crazy. It takes experience to be a master. Anyone can study and pass a test. So I keep getting experiences, I keep reading, and I don't get much honey. I hope this year is better. My question is...I've down-sized my some of my colonies and have supers on (some with comb supers, some with extracting supers). I think I need to do the shook swarm manipulation so I get good comb honey. The honey flow started in earnest this past week. I've had two swarms from a couple of my hives in the last 3 or 4 days. I've reversed locations of a few hives. Even with the honey flow started, would it be advisable to do a shook swarm now on some of my hives? I realize I am late. I hope to be able to rectify this. What else am I doing? Keeping records of the bloom cycle and honey plants. Keeping records of basic weather conditions. Jot simple notes of what I did in the bee yards that day. Rereading, reviewing, and rereading various beekeeping books. I've removed a colony from an old farmhouse. There are two other old homes with bee colonies waiting for retrieval. Plus there are five or six or is it maybe 10 locations of wild bees in trees, which await my bait swarm catcher installations. I have a couple of hives to pick up next week from pollination in apples. Bears and bear fence installations have given me unexpected education. Setting up and maintaining 4 or 5 out apiaries is interesting, especially with the rising gasoline prices. And sugar dusting the colonies...they look like little bee "ghosts". Oh, yes, I read all of Randy O's articles in the journals, on the web, and his posts here. I wish he'd have a "The New Beekeeping " book on the market. Back to shook swarming. I work the next three days 12 hour shifts. I can do one hive per day after work, if that's what it takes. Am I too late this year for shook swarming techniques? Maybe it would be better to just go for extracted honey this year? My honey will be expensive this year. Thank you for any replies. Alf Bashore Danville PA **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 23:19:42 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: Pesticides Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Thu, 15 May 2008 17:32:34 -0400, James Fischer wrote: >Amitraz cannot be OFFICIALLY used in hives. >Any detection of amitraz in hives or honey >at any level would be grounds for destruction >of the honey as adulterated by pesticides not >approved for use in connection with honey. > I have heard more then once from credible sources that there is a Federal limit for Amitraz in honey even though its not registered for use in hives in the USA anymore and that a major regional packer in the Midwest has moved their internal spec upwards in order to continue to be able fill the warehouse with incoming drums of domestic honey. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 22:26:10 -0700 Reply-To: Kathy Kellison Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kathy Kellison Subject: Farm Bill Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit yesterday House passed by vote 318-106 this evening Senate passed 81 - 15 this is enough votes to override expected veto **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 22:29:56 -0700 Reply-To: deelusbybeekeeper@yahoo.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Interesting observation Comments: To: "waldig@netzero.net" In-Reply-To: <20080515.153934.3306.0@webmail04.dca.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii waldemar, When we did this we had already gone thru first regression down to 5.0mm - 5.1mm sizing for 8 years. This information should be in the archives here fwiw. The bees were living with varroa but secondary diseases were eating us alive and costing commercial crop, and making us requeen spring and fall by year 8. So we decided to fine tune further, rationallizing that on a clean sustainable system there shouldn't be seondary diseases, as the bees should be in a healthy harmony with nature. So what does this mean then? Well, if now going down from 5.4mm to 4.9mm over the course of one year, you need to watch things close. But also, now there are more products on the market for faster regression down too, so you don't have to fight the comb drawwing out with culling so much, to get the bees down ASAP, and then stabilized. I am not talking mann lake small 4.95 which is too close to 5.0mm for me (might be okay canada due to latitude though). I am talking using the new HSC Honey Super Cell fully drawnout plastic comb. For getting the bees on it 100% and downsized in about 90 days means a lot starting in the spring, so the bees have the whole year then to work up with smaller bees, and then fed in around the HSC later comes the wax 4.9mm and/or foundationless, though for commercial doing, foundation is better due to extracting. But in the beginning there weren't others out there. Just stupid us and wanting others to follow which many didn't want to do and still don't. So we adapted helping each other and cried when others were put down so to speak. Now there are plenty around and SC queens and nucs and other to be had. But it's been an uphill battle and will probably still go on for years yet..........but numbers are growing and there are SC beekeepers in all states now and growing. So if you find ferals now 5.0mm or smaller be happy, for they have already gone thru the first regression part so you don't have to. So you have good odds on getting to 4.9mm size right off. Many parts of the USA are like this now with locals doing small cell size now more and more. Though there are still areas with LC commercial dominating where spheres of influence still are, but numbers are reducing yearly now due to die offs. Dee A. Lusby **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 22:58:59 -0700 Reply-To: deelusbybeekeeper@yahoo.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Pesticides Comments: To: bee-quick@BEE-QUICK.COM In-Reply-To: <000101c8b6d3$313a2cf0$0201000a@j> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Jim: > The bottom line is that, except for beekeeper MISuse, > there is very little chance of overlap between beekeeper > use of a miticide and agricultural use of the same > chemical on bee-related crops, so any level at all > detected in wax, honey, or bees is highly likely to > be solely due to the beekeeper's actions. Reply: So what happens Jim when the public across the board finds out! not that we will have much of an industry left at the rate commercial numbers are declining, and basically mostly since the 1980s era forward. Sad state of affairs to have put ourselves in...... As for CCD....keep waiting on Dean (deknow) to post here information he and Ramona have been working on relative to pollen and probably even pollen supplements, so I can then ask Jerry and others here like you how this will then effect the future of our bees. But the bottom line is, there needs to be a cleanup and getting away from all treatments and back to sustainable beekeeping again for control of all our pests, predators, and secondary diseases....can it be done? Dunno, for you gotta want to in a way....... I won't say anymore Jim, for you know what I would if I wrote it anyways now. Dee A. Lusby **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 May 2008 07:08:40 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Peter_de_Bruyn_Kops?= Subject: Re: Cross pollination barrier question Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit This question reminds me of an Extension presentation on apple pollination research. The obvious cross pollination we think of occurs from bees going from flower to flower on one trip. The nonobvious is pollen mixing in the hive. Apparently, foragers do not leave the hive perfectly clean. If the seed grower is normally content with a 1/4 mile buffer, then the in-hive pollen transfer does not present a significant problem on this crop and he just needs to consider the likelihood of foragers working both sides of the buffer on one trip. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 May 2008 08:17:36 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: A Spring without Bees ( but weak "immune systems") Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >I would venture that what most are really talking about is a weakened bee, not an immune system…” Perhaps, a weakened bee, IS a weaken immune system, as most of the bees immunity to disease is weighted on the behavioral side, stresses which weaken the bee are known to affect a colonies abilities on many levels. The honeybee genome project has revealed fewer genes for honey bee immunity to disease, this, they theorize it is because they are simply not needed, being compensated by enhanced behavioral traits such as hygienic behavior and propolis, brood rearing etc. Therefore, when talking about the bees immune system, it MUST always be with the inclusion of pest and disease suppressing traits at the colony level, as well as immunity at the individual bee level. Subsequently, stress weakening the bee, will also weaken the bees immunity. Best Wishes, Joe feralbeeproject.com **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 May 2008 08:24:04 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Interesting observation In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Always great to hear from you, the only proponent of small cell I believe. D. Murrell wrote: > Sorry to hear about your losses. Did the mites get them or was it something > else? My guess is something else. I still have to discuss it with Tony Jadczak to see what might have happened, but the cause and effect relationship with no treatment for the first time and loss seems to point to Varroa. > He has indicated that, so far, they are no more productive than his other > hives. When I had them, they were better than twice as productive. I suspect > that your thoughts, about different management practices/skill level having > a major impact on small cell beekeeping, are also correct. I would also add location, location, location. It is amazing what local environmental factors can do, even with the same beekeeper and bees. > Are the bees still swarming in your area? Maybe that empty equipment would > attract a swarm or two. I believe, from observation and honey lures that there are no longer any honey bees in my area. I am going to get two nucs of carnies and two more queens in June, so should be at four colonies (usually only keep three- it is a hobby) soon enough. I will raise one on 5.3, two on 5.1 and one on 4.9. Should be interesting. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 May 2008 09:42:55 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: A Spring without Bees ( but weak "immune systems") Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Genetically, the bee has fewer > immune sites in its DNA than fruit flies and > mosquitoes, so it is disadvantaged from the start. This, according to some in the genome project, is because it is well compensated by disease suppressing traits. I honestly, do not see any disadvantage here, AND I do not see any comparison to fruit files,,, bees are a social animals, fruit flies are NOT. A colony, described as a ‘Superorganism’ since 19c, should perhaps be viewed as such when considering immunity. Immunity at the colony level to the most part coming in the form of disease fighting traits, not resistance at the genetic level according to comments by some in the honeybee genome working group. > What is truly objectionable is the tarring of the industry > by such a broad brush. Most of those who have lost > bees to CCD are excellent beekeepers,,, I never ‘tar’ the industry, I will however occasionally tar chosen practices. An excellent beekeeper, makes not a successful beekeeper! More importantly, the management practices adopted by excellent beekeepers is the more likely reason for success. ,,,Any immune > system has trouble dealing with something new. My biggest fear is that scientist will again come up with a treatment to prop up bees immunity at the bees level, again neglecting the superorganism as a whole, causing further suffering long term by weakening the bee on the side of adaptive disease fighting traits. Bees are already in possession of the behavioral disease suppressing traits needed to build the foundation for supressing these diseases. IMO, by seeking treatment alternatives to these new diseases are perhaps neglecting the most important contributor to the colonies immune system found in (behavioral traits). Best Wishes, Joe feralbeeproject.com **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 May 2008 09:52:58 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: California frying MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Hi All, California is going into another drought season. Rainfall down about 50% again. The Sacto valley is hitting 100 degrees this week. Forage is dried up. The surprise hot weather (90F in the foothills where I live) has got me hustling to stay ahead of wax moth in my deadout equipment! Randy Oliver **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 May 2008 14:20:10 -0400 Reply-To: james.fischer@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Pesticides MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I have heard more then once from credible sources that > there is a Federal limit for Amitraz in honey even > though its not registered for use in hives in the USA > anymore When the Amitraz registration was voluntarily canceled, existing beekeeper stocks could still be used. (But no new purchases were allowed.) The tolerances remained in place longer than they should have, as EPA was being systematically starved for funds and staff by the current administration. But leaving a tolerance "on the books" did not excuse further purchases and off-label use of the stuff. This was (and still is) illegal off-label use of a pesticide in what can only be described as "direct food contact". The EPA only last year removed the Amitraz tolerances for honey and wax. http://www.thefederalregister.com/d.p/2007-06-13-E7-11324 "All registered uses of amitraz in beehives have been cancelled and therefore, the Agency determined that the tolerances on honey and honeycomb are no longer needed and should be revoked. Consequently, EPA is proposing to revoke the tolerances in 40 CFR 180.287(a) for residues of amitraz and its metabolites in or on 'honey' and 'honeycomb'." > and that a major regional packer in the Midwest > has moved their internal spec upwards in order > to continue to be able fill the warehouse with > incoming drums of domestic honey. That's very... interesting. I wonder how they would sell that honey in the USA, given the revoked tolerances, and admission of guilt inherent in having any spec other than "zero". > So what happens Jim when the public across the board > finds out! That's a question to ask that packer in the midwest! While I specialize in working out what happens after what comes next, the Alar scare in regard to apples years ago proved that one is at the mercy of whatever level of tabloid journalism is practiced. The good news is that the public has become jaded after years of exposure to such journalism. Just as an example, let me give a pop quiz - Is milk good for you, or bad for you this week? Does anyone really pay much attention to such scare-mongering journalism? One thing that should be clear is that lying is never a good idea. > [beekeeping] mostly [declined] since the 1980s era forward. > Sad state of affairs to have put ourselves in...... We have not "put ourselves" in this state. We were forced into this state by "World Trade", and the associated invasive exotic pests and diseases of honeybees that hitchhiked on all that world trade. The trade ramped up in the 1980s, and no surprise, that is when we started to see the first of the pests and diseases from across the oceans appear. We find ourselves in the unenviable position of having our bees and our livelihoods become the canary in the dark, dank global coal mine created by negligence in world trade, biosecurity, and environmental regulation. People who never met any of us continue to internalize their profits, while externalizing their costs on us. So why blame guys for their choices as to how to try and survive the onslaught as best they can? **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 May 2008 15:12:08 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Cross pollination barrier question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 16/05/2008 20:08:59 GMT Standard Time, CSlade777 writes: Does the forested area act as a vertical buffer to their movement? Von Frisch described how bee dances were adjusted to take account of a mountain between hive and feeder. I don't think a stand of trees will make much difference. Chris **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 May 2008 21:52:46 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Fumidil MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There have been a number of recommendations recently to apply Fumidil as = a spray (an off-label use as someone pointed out). Question: is there any danger to beekeepers from inhaling this spray? I = am thinking that Fumidil is made from Aspergillus - a fungus associated = with lung disease in humans. Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers at stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 May 2008 19:46:51 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: Fumidil In-Reply-To: <006401c8b796$cbb037c0$0200a8c0@office> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline >There have been a number of recommendations recently to apply Fumidil as a spray (an off-label use as someone pointed out). The recommendation is as a "drench," which does not cause appreciable aerosol droplets. Yes, Fumagillin is made from Aspergillus, but refined. I haven't heard of problems, but if there were, we would likely have seen problems previously from people eating honey containing it. That certainly isn't meant to imply a clean bill of health, just that other data appear to be lacking. Randy Oliver **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 May 2008 05:49:21 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: California frying MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 16/05/2008 18:09:18 GMT Standard Time, randy@RANDYOLIVER.COM writes: The surprise hot weather (90F in the foothills where I live) has got me hustling to stay ahead of wax moth in my deadout equipment! On the other hand, wax moths consume any disease in the comb. Chris **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 May 2008 05:08:12 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: New Zealand Manuka Honey Group Discounts Cancer Claims MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII New Zealand Manuka Honey Group Discounts Cancer Claims AMHA Moves to Distance Itself from Cancer Claims Active Manuka Honey Association, 5/16/2008 http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/2008/05/new-zealand-manuka-honey-group.html The Active Manuka Honey Association (AMHA) has acted swiftly to distance itself from promotional material released by former member Manuka Health New Zealand Limited which is written in such a way that consumers could be led to believe that the company's MGO-branded Manuka Honey could cure cancer... **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 May 2008 08:41:44 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Benson Subject: Re: Imidacloprid vs organophosphates In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Harrison wrote: > but I drink > bottled water. have you had that tested as well? Keith **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 May 2008 16:16:01 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: California frying MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chris wrote: > On the other hand, wax moths consume any disease in the comb. I seem to remember seeing a claim that wax moths might be implicated in spreading EFB. Peter **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 May 2008 11:50:50 -0400 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Fumidil MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > There have been a number of recommendations recently to > apply Fumidil as a spray (an off-label use as someone > pointed out). Who made these "recommendations"? I've not heard of any credible or legitimate source suggest spraying Fumidil, as it is not a topical treatment. Why would anyone follow ad-hoc "instructions" not found on the label of a medication? How can we beekeepers presume to chant "The Label Is The Law" at growers if we don't respect "The Label" ourselves? There have been a number of highly "creative" approaches to treating bees, the oldest one being the trick of leaving Apistan strips in the brood chamber year-round. Like leaving strips in, "creative" use of medications and miticides have never yet resulted in even the slightest advance in the state-of-the-art. All have proven to only offer value as cautionary tales to warn others against trying such ad-hoc schemes. Just to simplify, what part of "feed Fumidil" was hard to grasp? :) I wonder what these people do when their kids get an infection. Do they spray their kids with antibiotics, hoping that some of the medicine will make it into their mouths? Yes, it is frustrating when new pathogens like Nosema ceranae (assuming that it actually is Nosema ceranae), cannot be controlled well by the existing medications like Fumidil. It is worse when no one has an effective control strategy to offer. But let's not panic, and start spraying medication all over our hives at random. If it is going to work at all, it is only going to work when bees eat the stuff. FEED the stuff to your bees. All Nosema lives in the digestive tracts of bees. > is there any danger to beekeepers from inhaling this spray? All the years of beekeepers trying to mix the stuff properly was sure to have generated a lot of splashes and sprays, and so far, no one has reported any problems. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 May 2008 09:12:08 -0700 Reply-To: k.kellison@earthlink.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kathy Kellison Subject: housecleaning by wax moths MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Chris you wrote: "wax moths consume any disease in the comb" Is this personal observation or do you know a paper on this ,, if so please send me source, would like to read it.. Thanks, Kathy **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 May 2008 09:48:20 -0700 Reply-To: k.kellison@earthlink.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kathy Kellison Subject: update on AB 771/Right to Farm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII All, Yepp, the heat is on here in Ca.. temperature hit 110 degrees coming back from CSBA board meeting in Redding yesterday afternoon. Those of you interested in how this seedless Mandarin orange battle is playing out may remember that the amended bill called for a work group to reach consensus on how to resolve the issue. Right to Farm: Section 3482.5 of the Ca. Civil Code declares that "agricultural activity" on a farm in operation for more than three years is not to be considered a nuisance due to changed conditions in the area. For purposes of this section "agricultural activity" includes apiculture. There is one more meeting, but agreement seems unlikely, as Murcott/growers will not accept any changes on their end. The cost to net the trees is about $1500 per acre, (and does work) which includes a 3 year shelf life on the nets. This additional cost to production would still allow the growers to offer their clementines at competitive prices.. CSBA had to retain a consultant this past year at a substantial fee, while there has been a good response to their call for donations, their budget is about exhausted. If you are so inclined donations can be sent to : California State Beekeepers Association, Inc. 7220 E. Grayson Rd. Hughson, Ca 95326 Tel/Fax (209)667-4590 **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 May 2008 09:22:46 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Southern Subject: Re: California frying In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit On 5/17/08 5:49 AM, Chris Slade at CSlade777@AOL.COM wrote: > In a message dated 16/05/2008 18:09:18 GMT Standard Time, > randy@RANDYOLIVER.COM writes: > > The surprise hot weather (90F in the foothills where I live) has got me > hustling to stay ahead of wax moth in my deadout equipment! > > > > On the other hand, wax moths consume any disease in the comb. > > Chris That's an interesting statement. Can you explain? I might liken it to "removal of my arm would remove the damage caused by crushing my hand". In other words, the remedy would hardly be an improvement. But I'm interested to hear your take ... **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 May 2008 06:47:10 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: California frying In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > > >On the other hand, wax moths consume any disease in the comb. No disease in my combs : ) I can hear the worms gnawing.... **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 May 2008 15:30:51 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: California frying MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 17/05/2008 19:38:33 GMT Standard Time, beekeepers@STRATFORD-UPON-AVON.FREESERVE.CO.UK writes: I seem to remember seeing a claim that wax moths might be implicated in spreading EFB. How? I thought the usual cause (apart from beekeepers) was drifting bees. Chris **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 May 2008 16:42:33 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: Re: Fumidil MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline >All Nosema lives in the digestive tracts of bees. With all the talk about nosema species I was surprised that nobody brought up this one: > Nosema locustae is a naturally-occurring microbe that infects and kills grasshoppers and Mormon crickets when these pests ingest bait that contains Nosema locustae. Based on appropriate testing, this active ingredient is safe for humans, wildlife, and the environment when used according to label directions. > The active ingredient consists of spores of the naturally-occurring microbe Nosema locustae. For use in pesticide products, the spores are mixed with bait, which is then applied to soil as a solid or liquid. When a target insect ingests the bait, the spores become active, the microbe grows and replicates in the insect' s digestive system, and the insect soon dies. The bait is most effective if used when the insects are still in their immature nymph stage, before they become adults. -- Peter L Borst Danby, NY USA 42.35, -76.50 http://picasaweb.google.com/peterlborst **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 May 2008 14:39:30 -0700 Reply-To: naturebee@yahoo.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: California frying In-Reply-To: <011201c8b830$eb056740$0200a8c0@office> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > I seem to remember seeing a claim that wax moths might be > implicated in > spreading EFB. Wax moth are opportunistic insects, and are more prone to gain a foot hold, in weak and diseased colonies. So it would be easy to come to the assumption 'in error' that EFB was introduced by wax moth. Best Wishes, Joe Feralbeeproject.com **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 May 2008 18:15:55 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: California frying MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 17/05/2008 19:49:53 GMT Standard Time, mike.southern@COX.NET writes: On the other hand, wax moths consume any disease in the comb. > > Chris That's an interesting statement. Can you explain? I might liken it to "removal of my arm would remove the damage caused by crushing my hand". In other words, the remedy would hardly be an improvement. Not just my view. Roger Morse in his Complete Guide to Beekeeping wrote 'Wax moths can very soon destroy a colony that dies from disease and in doing so probably render a service to the beekeeping industry.' But don't worry too much, as the normal precautions you take to sterilise the combs from dead colonies (radiation, fumigation, melting etc) will also destroy wax moth and provided you don't allow them access to the sterile combs until they are re-used there will be no problem. If you don't sterilise the combs from dead colonies then Morse was right. Chris **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 08:34:14 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: California frying MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chris asked re wax moths spreading EFB: > How? I thought the usual cause (apart from beekeepers) was drifting > bees. By carrying it on their bodies when moving from infected to non-infected hives presumably. Peter **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 08:55:22 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: California frying MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Joe wrote: > Wax moth are opportunistic insects, and are more prone to gain a foot > hold, in weak and diseased colonies. So it would be easy to come to the > assumption 'in error' that EFB was introduced by wax moth. I am not arguing the case for wax moths spreading the disease and would agree that it is normally spread by robbing or by beekeepers; I simply said: "I seem to remember seeing a claim that wax moths might be implicated in spreading EFB." I was wondering if anyone had any further information. Certainly wax moths will invade diseased colonies - and may then fly to disease-free ones; the question is: can they spread disease? Peter **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 06:46:19 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Excessive Quotes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The following article was submitted to BEE-L@Listserv.albany.edu = . It is being returned due to = excessive quotes. Please, if you will, resubmit your post without = quoting the article to which you are responding. Guidelines for BEE-L Submissions 1. Do not include excessive quotes of previous submissions. If = you must quote previous postings, include only what is necessary to make = your point. Submissions that include the entirety of previous posts = may be rejected without comment or notice. Sincerely, Aaron Morris Bee-l Owner/Editor/Moderator/Janitor **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 06:55:47 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Wax Moths - was California Frying MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 17/05/2008 19:49:53 GMT Standard Time, mike.southern@COX.NET writes: That's an interesting statement. Can you explain? Not just my view. Roger Morse in his Complete Guide to Beekeeping wrote 'Wax moths can very soon destroy a colony that dies from disease and in doing so probably render a service to the beekeeping industry.' But don't worry too much, as the normal precautions you take to sterilise the combs from dead colonies (radiation, fumigation, melting etc) will also destroy wax moth and provided you don't allow them access to the sterile combs until they are re-used there will be no problem. If you don't sterilise the combs from dead colonies then Morse was right. Chris **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 04:56:43 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: Video: Apitherapy Used to Treat Arthritis, MS, Cancer, Infections MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Video: Apitherapy Used to Treat Arthritis, MS, Cancer, Infections Health Beat - Apitherapy http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/2008/05/video-apitherapy-used-to-treat.html May 14, 2008 (USA) - Jerry Catana talks to Health Beat about Apitherapy. The video includes a demonstration of bee venom therapy used to treat a dog with arthritis. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 09:20:30 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Roni Subject: Re: California frying MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jerry Hayes said at our Bee Institute yesterday that the wax moths would even consume American Foul Brood detrius. Roni **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 20:18:19 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Barry Digman Subject: Re: World's Record For Amount Of Press Coverage versus Actual Number Of Bees Collected In-Reply-To: <000001c8b6ee$2813ff50$0201000a@j> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I just got the strangest message from my twin brother who just happened to be in New York City recently. He said he was walking down the street on the Upper East Side when he spotted a big curly-haired fellow wearing a white T-shirt and shorts, and he appeared to be smearing honey all over a newspaper box. The guy also had what my brother described as a 2 or 3lb package of bees. It being NYC, my brother, who is a high desert bumpkin like myself, did not stop to observe or ask questions. He simply assumed that the fellow had good reason for doing what would have gotten him some peculiar attention back home. An hour or so later he was coming back and noticed the fire and police departments on scene, and the big curly-haired fellow giving an interview to FauxNews. Apparently the fellow had recaputured the bees he'd released onto the newspaper box. For a moment I thought the events my brother described and the reports from Jim were related. Then I realized that they couldn't be the same person, as Jim would never, under any circumstances, be speaking to a Fox reporter. (Seriously, it was well done. No hysteria, no panic, no end-of-the-world prognostications. Just pickin' up da bees...) barry digman **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 10:32:43 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: terminology in airports MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Hi All, Here is a suggestion to any traveling with a mortar and pestle to perform nosema testing: Last night, I was returning from giving a presentation to the Puget Sound (Washington state) beekeepers. At airport security, my bag was pulled from the x-ray machine, and I was requested to open it for inspection. I casually offered, "Oh, yeah, I bet you saw the mortar." In the silence that followed, the fellow in line before me turned and said, "You packed a mortar! Dude, you've got some balls!" I suggest that at airport security, beekeepers packing a mortar use a descriptive phrase such as, "mortar and pestle, grinder, or spice grinder" instead of "mortar," which has other connotations to security agents. Randy Oliver Federal Inmate no. 39578-992861 **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 16:20:17 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: Fumidil Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Sat, 17 May 2008 11:50:50 -0400, James Fischer wrote: >Who made these "recommendations"? James perhaps in your zeal to prove everyone wrong you have fallen behind on your reading? http://home.ezezine.com/1636/1636-2008.05.08.12.03.archive.html **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 May 2008 00:00:53 -0400 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Fumidil MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > James perhaps... you have fallen behind on your reading? http://home.ezezine.com/1636/1636-2008.05.08.12.03.archive.html I not only read "Catch The Buzz", I have written a few of them! :) What it says is clear: "...pour it on the bees. That is the procedure used by the Spanish researchers. Spraying the applications on the bees is being tested, currently, by Medivet." Eric is not suggesting anyone do this, he is REPORTING on what researchers are TRYING, and Medivet is TESTING. You can e-mail and ask Eric yourself. You will be told in no uncertain terms what his opinion is of people who get "creative" with medications. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 May 2008 04:32:12 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "deknow@netzero.net" Subject: benefical microorganisms and soft treatments Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi everyone, We've been doing some research (and actual "kitchen experements"), and feel ready to share our thoughts and results. We'd love feedback, discussion, and even arguments :) http://www.BeeUntoOthers.com/NoBeeIsAnIsland.pdf deknow **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 May 2008 05:14:57 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: Paul: Manuka Health Never Claimed Cancer-Curing Properties MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Paul: Manuka Health Never Claimed Cancer-Curing Properties By Kerry Paul, Chief Executive, Manuka Health New Zealand Limited http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/2008/05/paul-manuka-health-never-claimed-cancer.html (May 19, 2008) - AMHA is making yet another false statement about Manuka Health. There has been no release of promotional materials claiming methylglyoxal in manuka honey has cancer-curing properties. To our knowledge there has never been any research showing manuka honey has cancer curing properties. What is AMHA's motivation in this exercise? Simply it is to attempt to dis-credit Manuka Health. AMHA is extremely bitter at Manuka Health for launching its MGOTM manuka honey testing system in January 2008... **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 May 2008 08:17:56 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Peter_de_Bruyn_Kops?= Subject: Re: benefical microorganisms and soft treatments Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >> Pollen that has not properly fermented into beebread is not digestible by >> honeybees. If this is the case, I find it difficult to explain the quick response (increased brood rearing) when natural pollen collection starts in the spring. It is my understanding that fermenting pollen into bee bread takes multiple days. It is certainly possible that yeast action permits or improves pollen digestion. It is also possible that some such yeasts operate in the bee gut and can do their work in a few hours. >> This year, we have more over-wintered hives than any other year, and the >> only significant difference in our management practice is that this year >> our bees are on small cell comb. We have not to date (mid-May), seen any >> chalkbrood or sacbrood in any of these hives, which we find interesting. Nothing quite like fresh comb to improve brood health. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 May 2008 13:10:22 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "deknow@netzero.net" Subject: Re: benefical microorganisms and soft treatments Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit -- Peter de Bruyn Kops wrote: I find it difficult to explain the quick response (increased brood rearing) when natural pollen collection starts in the spring. It is my understanding that fermenting pollen into bee bread takes multiple days. >>>i can't say that i know how long it takes for pollen to ferment into beebread, but i can tell you that in addition to the sources we have cited already, you might want to read jerry hayes' "the classroom" column in the April 2008 American Bee Journal. in response to a letter from dave mendes, jerry cites the same kind of data that we are presenting (that pollen is undigestable by bees until it is fermented into beebread). i certainly haven't seen anything that implies that bees can digest unfermented pollen...but would love to read some more data on the subject. It is also possible that some such yeasts operate in the bee gut and can do their work in a few hours. >>>yes, it is possible, but i have not seen any evidence of this. additionally, if what you posit above is true, it still may be the case that treatments affect those gut microorganisms. Nothing quite like fresh comb to improve brood health. >>>if in other years we were wintering on old comb, i would have mentioned it. >>>deknow **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 May 2008 08:29:16 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: benefical microorganisms and soft treatments In-Reply-To: <20080519.091022.27360.0@webmail13.dca.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > > i certainly haven't seen anything that implies that bees can digest > unfermented pollen.. Numerous experiments over the years, some cited in my nutrition and nosema articles, indicate that caged bees fed unfermented pollen are able to digest and utilize the nutrients in raw pollen. Randy Oliver **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 May 2008 16:04:09 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "deknow@netzero.net" Subject: Re: benefical microorganisms and soft treatments Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Randy posted: ... bees fed unfermented pollen are able to digest and utilize the nutrients in raw pollen. >>>randy, i'd love to read up on some of this. do you have citations (or better yet, links) to some of this research? thanks. >>>deknow **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 May 2008 12:23:33 -0400 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: benefical microorganisms and soft treatments MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter de Bruyn Kops said: > I find it difficult to explain the quick response > (increased brood rearing) when natural pollen > collection starts in the spring. Brood rearing is a pheromone-trigged event, so the mere smell of fresh nectar and fresh pollen, regardless of the level of overwintered stores available, is what starts serious egg laying and brood rearing. I don't see any problem with the lag while pollen and nectar "ferments into bee bread" or whatever, as eggs have 3 days from being laid to hatching into a hungry little larvae. As for the essay "No Bee Is An Island", I'd like to point out that the statement "No Bee Is An Island" also implies that "No Beehive Lives In A Vacuum". :) I'll explain my reasoning below: Lets assume for a moment that the impact of formic acid on combs and pollen stored in those combs is just as absolute as irradiation - the hive is "sterile", and nothing at all is left alive, zero beneficial organisms survive. Even though this case would be a massive exaggeration, the hive still exists in the real world, and outside bacteria are going to come in on every bee, every load of pollen, ever drop of nectar, every breeze that wafts through the entrance. Anyone who has made mead, beer, or wine at home knows just how hard it is to kill off all the bacteria in anything, and keep the yeast you add the only yeast in the mix. It is an almost impossible task. What happens in most cases, is that the yeast you add is certainly the most common yeast in the mix, but is not the only one by a long shot. So, how long can a beehive remain "sterile"? That depends upon how many times per hour the air in the hive is exchanged with fresh air from the outside, and the number of sorties per minute. But it isn't going to be long at all. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 May 2008 12:46:41 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: benefical microorganisms and soft treatments Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Mark Winston writes about pollen digestion in 'The Biology of the Honey Bee' on pages 33, 54, 58, 59. Winston writes about how pollen grains are passed to the midgut for digestion, in addition to how pollen is also stored in the comb to undergo fermentation into bee bread. Regards, Dick Allen **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 May 2008 13:11:39 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: Fumidil Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >...spraying medication all over our hives at random. It isn’t sprayed “all over our hives at random.” It is sprayed directly on the bees where they go to work cleaning each other off by consuming the syrup. >If it is going to work at all, it is only going to work when bees eat the stuff. Exactly. That is what the bees do when they clean their nestmates with syrup that has been sprayed or poured on them. >FEED the stuff to your bees. at the risk of repeating myself. oh, never mind. Regards, Dick Allen **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 May 2008 17:42:10 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "deknow@netzero.net" Subject: Re: benefical microorganisms and soft treatments Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit -- James Fischer wrote: "No Bee Is An Island" also implies that "No Beehive Lives In A Vacuum". :) hi jim, your reasoning is sound, and i appreciate the comments. i will say, however, that formic acid (and other treatments) are left in the hive for an extended period of time. it is not a case of fogging the inside of the hive and letting it air out...the formic acid fumes are constantly evaporating out of the pad (or, in the case of a formic acid drip, the drip is "dripping" constantly)....and yes, in the case of evaporation, the amount varies with the amount of ventilation as well as the temperature. the facts that you outline seem to me to imply that there is one application of formic acid vapor that starts to dissipate immediately. this isn't my understanding of how formic acid is used by anyone. to me, it seems that the amount of formic acid in the hive waxes and wanes with the temperature and wind/ventilation, and doesn't simply start at a high concentration and then gradually taper off (although this is what happens over a long period of time, this isn't what happens during most of the treatment time). i don't think that adding more yeast to any of the formic acid jars in our experiment would increase the amount of fermentation unless the formic acid were first removed. certainly, after the treatment period, levels of formic acid move towards zero...but the damage might already be done by that point. winter bees may simply not get enough nutrition from beebread, or from royal jelly to overwinter properly. also, the long term composition of the "culture" that the bees keep may well be affected. i don't know enough about the specific microorganisms involved (i don't think anyone does), but i can imagine that the bees may well keep "spring occurring microorganisms" not only throughout the season, but from year to year. formic acid (and other contaminants) may well require the bees to re-inoculate the hive from scratch (or nearly so), and this may impact the overall health of the hive. deknow **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 May 2008 18:14:01 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: benefical microorganisms and soft treatments MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 19/05/2008 11:16:21 GMT Standard Time, deknow@NETZERO.NET writes: We'd love feedback, discussion, and even arguments :) Does this suggest that bee bread would be a better dietary supplement (and delicious sweetmeat) for humans than trapped pollen? What are 'fight muscles'? How do bees use full strength honey to combat infections? Chris **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 May 2008 21:46:35 -0400 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Fumidil MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dick said: > It isn't sprayed "all over our hives at random." > It is sprayed directly on the bees Perhaps YOU can spray something and hit only bees, never getting any of the spray in open brood cells, on combs, or anywhere else. I don't think the rest of us are anywhere near that skillful. > where they go to work cleaning each other off by > consuming the syrup. But who says that they will consume it all? How much can a bee consume in one hour? One day? And what about the spray that ends up elsewhere? >> FEED the stuff to your bees. > at the risk of repeating myself. oh, never mind. At risk of repeating myself, please at let the researchers at least finish the tests they are running before advocating that others ignore the label instructions on a medication, and follow what has been clearly explained as a highly experimental and speculative approach, currently UNDER EVALUATION. And we must always "mind". We must mind the label, mind the symptoms, and mind our manners. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 May 2008 19:10:45 -0700 Reply-To: dvanderdussen@yahoo.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: David Vander Dussen Subject: Re: benefical microorganisms and soft treatments In-Reply-To: <20080519.003212.15756.0@webmail13.dca.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Those sugar/yeast/formic acid glove-on-jar experiments look like fun. An interesting way to test an initial hypothesis. Let's look at the doses of formic acid used. Commercially available formic acid starts at an 85% concentration and then goes higher. 85% is 850,000 ppm. Formic acid vapor concentration in a beehive, when used for killing varroa, starts being effective around 10 ppm and the bees like to keep it below 30 ppm. The trail with the gloves and drops of liquid formic acid would have formic acid concentrations far higher than is found in a hive undergoing Mite-AwayII treatment. Since the yeast tested did not become inactive when testing the lower doses, I can't see how yeasts would not continue to cause fermentation due to Mite-AwayII treatment. Even if 65% was the formic acid concentration used in the trial it is 650,000 ppm concentration, or 50% it is 500,000 ppm, etc. If you run the trial again please make sure you know the concentration of the active ingredient that you are testing and a more precise volume of the sugar solution with the yeast in it. A 10 ppm comparable when 100% FA is used would require about 100,000 drops of sugar/yeast solution per drop of FA, etc. Then at least you are looking at a concentration equivalent,even though then it would be liquid instead of vapor contact. If you could think up a simple experiment testing low concentrations of formic vapors impact on viruses, that would be great! regards, David VanderDussen --- On Mon, 5/19/08, deknow@netzero.net wrote: > We've been doing some research (and actual > "kitchen experements"), and feel ready to share > our thoughts and results. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 03:57:49 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "deknow@netzero.net" Subject: Re: benefical microorganisms and soft treatments Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit -- Chris Slade wrote: In a message dated 19/05/2008 11:16:21 GMT Standard Time, Does this suggest that bee bread would be a better dietary supplement (and delicious sweetmeat) for humans than trapped pollen? >>>to me? no more than the fact that adult bees live essentially on honey would suggest to me that this is a good diet for adult humans. What are 'fight muscles'? >>>they are typographical errors. in the sentence following, the phrase "flight muscles" is a good hint as to what "fight muscles" are. How do bees use full strength honey to combat infections? >>>well, certainly bees use honey as a way to preserve their food...if it were stored in it's consumable form, it would spoil, much like canning or freezing might prevent your winter food stores from rotting. i can't cite a specific source that says bees use honey to directly combat infection...but the way they sometimes pack honey on top of pollen would probably be an example. >>>deknow **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 May 2008 22:33:54 -0700 Reply-To: deelusbybeekeeper@yahoo.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: benefical microorganisms and soft treatments In-Reply-To: <20080519.120409.14029.2@webmail12.dca.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Randy: What other feed were the bees in contact with as even caged they are normally on some type of honey and/or syrup that could be used in digesting the pollen so fed. Dee **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 05:54:21 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "deknow@netzero.net" Subject: Re: benefical microorganisms and soft treatments Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit -- randy oliver wrote: Numerous experiments over the years, some cited in my nutrition and nosema articles, indicate that caged bees fed unfermented pollen are able to digest and utilize the nutrients in raw pollen. ============================ hi randy, i'm glad you brought this up. i haven't gone through every cite on your site, but, "The effect of dietary protein on colony performance" http://www.apidologie.org/index.php?option=article&access=standard&Itemid=129&url=/articles/apido/pdf/2000/03/m0305.pdf seems about as relevant as anything. a few observations on this study from a quick skim of it wrt your claims above: 1. they did not compare "beebread" with "collected pollen". is it possible that all samples provide undernourisment when compared to the diet they might have in the hive? 2. all pollen was either assumed to have sugars, or had sugar added. all pollen was then mixed with water. this mixture was replaced on days 3 and 8. given the sugar, the water, and the 3,5, and 6 days time between replacing this mixture, it is entirely possible that the pollen fermented in this time. 3. the assay of the pollen was done after pulverizing the pollen/water mixture. although it has little bearing on your comments, it is something that we postulated in the paper...pulverized unfermented pollen might test similarly to fermented pollen, but unpulverized unfermented pollen might not offer the bees the same nutrition. i know you are busy, and i will continue to poke around some of the references you cite in your articles, but if you do know of a study that is definitely looking at unfermented pollen consumption, i'd love to read it. deknow **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 06:13:50 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: neonicotinoids In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, News from Germany. Germany has suspended the use of Antac,chinook,cruiser ,elado,Faibel, mesurol liquid & poncho. With the suspension of the licences no imports, no marketing and no continued application of the plant products is permited. bob -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 05:21:06 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: Propolis: Creating a Buzz as a Natural Preservative MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Propolis: Creating a Buzz as a Natural Preservative Food Engineering & Ingredients, 5/1/2008 http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/2008/05/propolis-creating-buzz-as-natural.html Preservatives are an essential ingredient for most foods and beverages. Despite the effectiveness of synthetic preservatives such as sodium benzoate, consumers are increasingly demanding all-natural ingredients. Natural preservatives are therefore growing in appeal. Bee propolis, already widely known as a nutritional supplement, may represent an attractive option for food manufacturers seeking natural preservatives as a means to differentiate their products. However, differences in the composition of propolis collected by honey bees from varying regions will mean that suppliers will need to standardise their extracts. And, if the consumer is to have confidence in the product... **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 08:30:22 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Re: neonicotinoids Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > Baden-Württemburg Agriculture Minister Peter Hauk said scientists still weren't sure what was behind the disaster. "As long as the causes are still unclear, we must consider all the possible ways we can reduce the risks for the bees." Hauk encouraged beekeepers to move their hives outside the affected area to prevent further damage. Government officials say the early results aren't conclusive. "The bees that were tested showed a buildup of [clothianidin] but in such small amounts that the scientists couldn't say it was definitely the cause." > Meanwhile, Germany's beekeepers were pointing fingers at Bayer ... **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 08:38:22 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Southern Subject: Re: neonicotinoids In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit On 5/20/08 7:13 AM, Bob Harrison at bba@DISCOVERYNET.COM wrote: > News from Germany. Aren't those products made by a German company in the first place? So now will they increase sales push in America to compensate I wonder? **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 09:33:59 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Rip Bechmann Subject: Pollen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am unaware of anything in the literature that says bees cannot digest pollen. The point is that "predigested" pollen, by microorganisms, has a higher TDN. The inefficiency of pollen digestion by bees is cited as one of the several factors that predispose some species to sociality. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 13:15:40 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: Fumidil Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Here is part of the label instructions from my package of Fumagilin-B: “Heavily infested colonies that will no longer take in syrup may be sprayed repeatedly, directly onto the bees, frame by frame with 1:1 sugar syrup (one part sugar to one part water) containing 2 g of Fumagilin-B per litre of syrup.” Regards, Dick Allen **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 15:11:50 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "deknow@netzero.net" Subject: Re: Pollen Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit -- Rip Bechmann wrote: I am unaware of anything in the literature that says bees cannot digest pollen. I'm at work at the moment, but the paper we wrote was (i think) well referenced...martha gilliam's work especially comes to mind. that said, in the april 2008 abj, jerry hayes says roughly the same thing to dave mendes (that pollen needs to be fermented in order for bees to digest it). i don't have the magazine, but i'm sure someone here does. deknow **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 07:31:09 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: benefical microorganisms and soft treatments In-Reply-To: <100204.88581.qm@web51611.mail.re2.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Dee Lusby wrote: > Randy: > What other feed were the bees in contact with as even caged they are > normally on some type of honey and/or syrup that could be used in digesting > the pollen so fed. Hi Dee and DeKnow, In feeding trials, bees are typically fed dried, unfermented pollen with 1:1 sugar syrup separately. Their body protein levels and longevity skyrocket with such feeding. I do not doubt that the fermented pollen in beebread may be more nutritious (in fact Kevin Jester is selling such a lactic fermented pollen supplement). However, I suggest that you support your claims that raw pollen is undigestible with data. Randy **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 13:56:24 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Pollen In-Reply-To: <200805201406.m4KDorB8016563@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit One of my favorite Andy posts: http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind9708D&L=BEE-L&P=R8841&I =-3 Aaron Morris, thinking "Love them archives!" **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 19:38:54 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juanse Barros Subject: Re: Fumidil In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline and here the leaflet that comes with the Jar. http://www.medivet.ca/medivet/guidelines/Fumagilin-B%20metric%20english%20and%20french.pdf -- Juanse Barros J. APIZUR S.A. Carrera 695 Gorbea - CHILE +56-45-271693 08-3613310 http://apiaraucania.blogspot.com/ juanseapi@gmail.com **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 14:02:24 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_Borst?= Subject: Multiple causes, says expert Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit * I believe any theory which singles out the sole cause of bee die-offs will fail to reflect the actual situation. There are many interconnected factors. If the bee population is inherently weakened, whether by varroa, nosema, or inbreeding, it will be very difficult to prove that an additional burden, such as barely detectable amounts of imidacloprid, was the straw that broke the camel's back. But, good luck. > Wuerzburg, Germany - The collapse of bee populations, which is worrying farmers in many nations, has multiple causes including a loss of wild countryside which used to offer the insects a varied diet, a German biology professor said Wednesday. Some German apiarists lost their entire stock of bees in the past winter. The direct cause of most bee deaths is the varroa mite, which infects bees, but the indirect causes for the insects' lack of immunity to parasite and illnesses were highly varied, Tautz said, blaming breeding programmes that had created docile, weak bees. "Nowadays it only takes one tenth as many mites to wipe out a swarm as it took a decade ago," he said. Citation: "Bee population collapse: multiple causes, says German expert" http://tinyurl.com/3t2xtp > A population can become extinct by chance, if its environment is highly variable or if it happens to suffer a few bad years in a row. It is easy enough to imagine situations in which low densities just make things progressively worse. This effect may be due to generic impacts like inbreeding or limitations on the availability of mates due to geographic dispersion, or species-specific traits such as the breakdown of anti-predator herd guarding or the failure of male bird breeding arenas (called leks) to attract females if they are too small. Such problems, where low numbers of individuals in a population leads to a self-perpetuating loss of demographic, genetic, or ecological fitness, are called "Allee effects". Citation: Brook BW (2008) "The allure of the few." PLoS Biol 6(5): e127. doi:10.1371/journal.pbio.0060127 **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 15:15:29 -0400 Reply-To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Fumidil MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dick Aleen said: > "Heavily infested colonies that will no longer > take in syrup may be sprayed repeatedly..." That's interesting... you seem to have been provided with the Canadian instructions. Did you purchase yours from a Canadian dealer? While Health Canada tends to copy EPA documents word for word in most cases, the strange stance taken by the EPA in regard to Fumadil/Fumagilil was puzzling, so we are all lucky that Health Canada has not followed EPA's lead: a) Because Mid-Con was unable to afford to change their label or mixing process to the EPA's liking, the EPA was responsible for "killing" the only US source of this medication. b) Somehow, the Canadian maker, Medivet, producing the same product using very similar methods, was allowed to import their product without any harassment from EPA about labels. Now it appears that they have added advice to the label in advance of any data to support the advice. Does anyone know if the US labels also have the same text? (I'm not suggesting that we call this to anyone's attention, as the last thing we need is additional hassle in getting this medication. The failure of Fumadil/Fumagilil to control what is being called Nosema ceranae may be in part due to the difficulty that Mid-Con was having with making the stuff. My understanding is that the mechanical mixing process was not resulting in a consistent amount of active ingredients in each and every container sold. I wonder how much of the problem might be due to over-estimating the amount of actual medicine in each "dose" measured out of the container. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 17:35:30 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: Fumidil Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >Now it appears that they have added advice to the label in advance of any data to support the advice. No, that's not true. My supply was purchased, yes from the Canadians, awhile back. The label recommendations are from the supply that I purchased over two years ago. It has been kept stored in the freezer as recommended by Diana Sammataro in her book 'The Beekeeper's Handbook'. Perhaps, I am misinformed, but I'm reasonably sure that there is no official U.S. label for Fumagilin-B. Instead, the U.S. relies on the instructions provided by the Canadians who make the product. Regards, Dick Allen **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 18:16:02 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: Re: Pollen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit deknow wrote: "the paper we wrote was (i think) well referenced ... martha gilliam's work especially comes to mind." These are rather obscure papers that most beekeepers cannot access. Are sure your conclusions flow from her work; or are you perhaps embellishing it a bit? deknow wrote: "People who buy honey (especially from a beekeeper) have no concept that anything at all goes into the hive" Gilliam wrote: "Over 6000 microbial strains associated with bees and their food have been isolated and identi¢ed. Newly emerged adult worker bees are inoculated with microorganisms when they begin to feed. Microbial inoculation and colonization of the gut occur within 4 days after emergence as a result of pollen consumption and through food exchange with older bees in the colony. Gram-variable pleomorphic bacteria are the most common intestinal microorganisms in adult worker and queen honey bees ... I am not sure that the public is going to be enchanted with the idea that honey bees are swapping bacteria and yeasts from their guts and adding it to honey and pollen. > There is a growing appreciation for the potentially beneficial roles of bacteria in honey bee colonies. Evans and Lopez recently showed that non-pathogenic bacteria can stimulate the innate immune response of honey bee larvae, perhaps helping bees survive exposure to pathogens. Further, Reynaldi et al. recently showed that bacteria isolated from bees in Argentina are inhibitory of the important bee fungal pathogen, Ascosphaera apis. It will be interesting to determine whether these species, in addition, are also inhibitory toward P. larvae, and to contrast the microbes associated with bees across different continents. "Antagonistic interactions between honey bee bacterial symbionts and implications for disease" Jay D Evans and Tamieka-Nicole Armstrong http://tinyurl.com/57t7sc **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 15:40:53 -0700 Reply-To: deelusbybeekeeper@yahoo.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Pollen In-Reply-To: <20080520.111150.3032.2@webmail12.dca.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii So bacically, if formic acid treatments in pad and/or dribbling makes pollen worthless stored in frames for food and raising young brood for successful spring startups, since in winter bees cannot forage and replace the pollen, then what have we done to our bees? Dee **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 15:45:17 -0700 Reply-To: deelusbybeekeeper@yahoo.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Fumidil In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Dick Allen: So how does this sprying of more syrup make it better for the bees? Please explain to me.........Seems to me something else is wrong. Dee **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 18:48:10 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: A Yankee Out Walking Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit A little break from the serious discussion, >From the files of the Historical Honeybee Article Archives Its swarm season so,,,, Some beautiful bee swarm poetry from 1853 The Star And Banner Friday, October 21, 1853 Gettysburg, Pennsylvania A Yankee, out walking, in Virginia, at Wheeling, while to himself a talking, experienced a feeling-strange, painful, and alarmin' from his capus to his knees, and he suddenly discovered, he was covered o'er with bees! They rested on his eyelids, and perched upon his nose; they colonized his peaked face, and swarmed upon his clothes. They explored his swelling nostrils, dived deep into his ears; they crawled up his "trousers," and filled his eyes with tears! Did he yell like a hyena? Did he holler like a loon? Was he scar't and did he "cut an' run?" or did the criter-swoon? Ne'er a one! He wasn't scar't a mite; he never swoons -nor hollers: but he hived `em in a nail-keg tight! and sold 'em for two dollars! Joe Feralbeeproject.com **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 15:53:46 -0700 Reply-To: deelusbybeekeeper@yahoo.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Multiple causes, says expert In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Peter, YOu are right that their are many interconnected factors. 1. treatments in general across te board that breach the co-dependency working relationships within a beehive of various mircro-organisms that have beent here for milions of years, besides breaching the food digestibility. 2. Artificial pollens. 3. Artificial syrup feeds. 4. Arificiial inbreeding parameters instead of old fashionied line breeding. 5. Migratory beekeeping so bees have no permanent home base for working out of. 6. Wrongful cell size that changes the breeding paramentes and foraging for food and propolis parameters. 7. having to puty up with pesticide sprayings outside of a bee coloney. 8. NOt enough room for adequately being allowed to work and buildup for production. Dee **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 16:00:34 -0700 Reply-To: deelusbybeekeeper@yahoo.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Fumidil Comments: To: bee-quick@bee-quick.com In-Reply-To: <000001c8baad$de61d080$0201000a@j> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Could the problem also be due to non-digestiability of the pollen needed for raising new brood? and/or honey possibly, or syrups fed in the gut of bees in general that somehow is no good now? But how could this be? Dee A. Lusby **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 May 2008 03:27:17 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: benefical microorganisms and soft treatments MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 20/05/2008 11:23:03 GMT Standard Time, deknow@NETZERO.NET writes: that caged bees fed unfermented pollen What was the source of 'unfermented pollen'? Did the experimenters collect it direct from the plants or was it pollen pellets collected by bees? If so it would probably have already been innoculated with digestive juices from the salivary glands of the bees as they moisten pollen with regurgitated nectar during the collection process. Chris **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 20:24:36 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Fwd: [BEE-L] Fumidil In-Reply-To: <3dcef4a10805200720l2879931dl15e8104cb13e40a0@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Dick said: > >It is sprayed directly on the bees where they go to > work cleaning each other off by consuming the syrup. Hi All, I enter into this discussion with trepidation, in that I am trying not to offend anyone on the List. Dr. Eric Mussen is a very smart guy, and a great resource to beekeepers. I can assure the List that he prechecked his facts about nosema treatments with others prior to publishing his recommendations. And yes, Dr. Mussen would hardly "report" a method of use, with suggested concentrations, without thinking that beekeepers would take that "report" a= s a recommendation. Dr. Mussen, and all other government authorities, are constrained by their positions to only recommend label directions. If they "report" otherwise, it is often merely a clever way to make off-label recommendations, when the science is ahead of legislation. However, in this specific instance, the drench is actually not off label--i= t is on the Canadian label for the spring, if bees won't take syrup. The exact wording from the label is: "Heavily infested colonies that will no longer take in syrup may be sprayed repeatedly, directly onto the bees, frame by frame with 1:1 sugar syrup=85containing 2 g of Fumagilin-B per litre of syrup." Since Fumagil-B is not officially labeled for use in the U.S., there is no *official* U.S. label. Our authorities are merely (and generously) accepting the Canadian labels. Since the drench method is on the Canadian label for a certain condition, it is de facto legal in the U.S. to spray bees in "heavily infested" colonies with 1:1 sugar syrup containing 2 g of Fumagilin-B per litre of syrup. This method is appropriate when bees stop taking feed, as they are prone to do when heavily infested. The feeding method simply does not work at that time, since they will not take it from a feeder. However, they will ingest it in the process of cleaning syrup off each others' bodies. I hope that this clarifies the issue. Randy Oliver **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 May 2008 03:30:15 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: neonicotinoids MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 20/05/2008 12:55:33 GMT Standard Time, bba@DISCOVERYNET.COM writes: Germany has suspended the use of Antac,chinook,cruiser ,elado,Faibel, mesurol liquid & poncho. I gather that the problem was that the method of application during drilling allowed too much to escape being buried, to the peril of the applicator as well as non-target species. Chris. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 May 2008 04:35:03 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: C Hooper Subject: Ugandan Bee Population Threatened by Black Ants MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Ugandan Bee Population Threatened by Black Ants Black Ants a Threat to Bee Population, Honey Industry By Kikonyogo Ngatya, New Vision (Uganda), 5/20/2008 http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/2008/05/ugandan-bee-population-threatened-by.html A common type of black ants has been singled out as the most devastating pest to bees in Uganda. The insects commonly called munyeera in Luganda, nginingini in Luo, attack beehives, suck out the honey and kill the bee pupae and eggs... **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 May 2008 08:12:43 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Peter L. Borst" Subject: Re: pollen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Martha Gilliam wrote: > Our studies of floral and corbicular pollen and of bee bread stored over time in comb cells of the hive, all from the same plant species, demonstrated that pollen from a flower changes microbiologically and biochemically as soon as a honey bee collects it. Bees moisten pollen with regurgitated nectar or honey to facilitate packing into the corbiculae, add glandular secretions, and inoculate it with microbes. > Fungi (molds and yeasts) and Bacillus spp. were the predominant microbes in pollen and bee bread. Of the total microbial isolates (n=391) from pollen and bee bread, 55% of the pollen and 85% of the bee bread isolates were fungi (Gilliam, unpublished). It appeared that honey bees engaged in `microbial farming' by inoculating pollen with specific micro-organisms as they collected and packed it for transport to the colony. > The majority of molds were penicillia, Mucorales, and aspergilli. Floral pollen had the largest number of mold isolates but the fewest species. Floral pollen, corbicular pollen, and bee bread stored over time in comb cells differed in the predominant molds present (Mucor sp. in floral pollen, penicillia in corbicular pollen and in bee bread stored for 1 week, aspergilli and penicillia in bee bread stored for 3 weeks, and aspergilli in bee bread stored for 6 weeks). Jay D Evans wrote > We describe wide-ranging endogenous bacterial taxa that are capable of inhibiting an important honey bee pathogen and show considerable variation within and across colonies in the distribution of these taxa. Most of the bacteria cultivated in this study belonged to the genus Bacillus, a result that is consistent with the high frequency of isolates placed in this genus by Gilliam and colleagues. Among the Bacillus species, the majority fell into the Bacillus cereus group. -- Antagonistic interactions between honey bee bacterial symbionts and implications for disease FYI > Bacillus cereus has been recognized as an agent of food poisoning since 1955. There are only a few outbreaks a year reported by CDC. Between 1972 and 1986, 52 outbreaks of food-borne disease associated with B. cereus were reported to the CDC (in 2003, there were two), but this is thought to represent only 2% of the total cases which have occurred during these periods. It is not a reportable disease, and usually goes undiagnosed. B. cereus causes two types of food-borne illnesses. One type is characterized by nausea and vomiting and abdominal cramps and has an incubation period of 1 to 6 hours. -- Bacillus cereus Food Poisoning (c) 2008 Kenneth Todar University of Wisconsin-Madison Department of Bacteriology -- Peter L Borst Danby, NY USA 42.35, -76.50 http://picasaweb.google.com/peterlborst **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 May 2008 07:03:00 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: T'N'T Apiaries Subject: Re: Fumidil MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Medivet, producing the same product using very similar methods Saying these two are the same product is like comparing Pepsi & 7-up. You virtually needed to be a pharmacist/chemist/something to get Fumadil-B to mix and even then..... That was why a bee supply company here pursued Medivet to make a replacement. The result not only mixed better and appeared to work, but it was substantially cheaper. When beekeepers compared both, the bees never blocked at the syrup with Fumagilin-B like was sometimes the case with Fumidil-B. > Now it appears that they have added advice to the label That advice has been on our label for years. We have springs where you shouldn't or can't feed the bees until June (too late if you have a Nosema problem). Spraying the top of the cluster a couple times has worked well. >in advance of any data to support I believe the data for Nosema apis exists. Second hand information tells me, what is being sot, is wheither or not this method will continue to work on Nosema ceranae. > that the mechanical mixing process was not > resulting in a consistent amount of active ingredients in > each and every container sold. And this isn't a problem???? Maybe this explains why in the days of package bees, when we fed a lot of spring syrup, we wondered at times if Fumidil-B was doing anything. Perhaps your EPA was concerned that the product actually did what its label said it would. David Tharle Ardmore, AB Canada **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 May 2008 13:33:56 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "deknow@netzero.net" Subject: Re: benefical microorganisms and soft treatments Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit -- randy oliver wrote: In feeding trials, bees are typically fed dried, unfermented pollen with 1:1 sugar syrup separately. >>>randy, i did my best to do what you suggested (look at the references in the articles on your website). the best match i could find to what you suggested did not do what you claim above. the procedure was to use bee collected pollen, add sugar to pollen substitute and pollen types that did not contain much, mix with water into a paste, and leave it for the bees to feed on for up to 6 days. to me, this seems to be likely fermented pollen. >>>i know you are busy, but a specific cite to a specific study that uses the methodology you cite above would be helpful. >>>deknow **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 May 2008 10:41:27 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: Fumidil Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Dee: How does spraying syrup make it better for bees, you ask. I suppose it makes it better for bees that are affected with the newer nosema disease in that it appears to be the only way to get them to consume medicated syrup. That is what Eric Mussen pointed out in his newsletter article that was also posted by 'Catch the Buzz'. Yes, I know (and respect) your philosophy of not medicating bees at all. So in that regard spraying syrup on bees as opposed to providing it to them in hive top feeders will be a non-issue for you. Others are willing to medicate their bees. And yes, I'm also of the opinion that many beekeepers do overmedicate their bees. I guess it's a matter of how much is too much. For you, it seems any amount of artificial treatment is too much. Others are not quite that adamant. Regards, Dick Allen **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 May 2008 08:21:58 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: Pollen In-Reply-To: <831159.60420.qm@web51605.mail.re2.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > if formic acid treatments in pad and/or dribbling makes pollen worthless Could anyone please post data to support this claim? This is a substantial accusation against formic acid. DeKnow's kitchen experiment did not contain pollen, so cannot be extrapolated to infer anything about the effect of formic acid on cells of stored pollen in the combs. May we see the details of any experiment that found that formic vapor stopped the natural lactic acid fermentation of pollen? I have used MiteAwayII a few times, and have read a number of papers on its effects upon bees and varroa. I have not observed or come across any observations by others that it had a negative effect upon bee nutrition. If this claim of pollen sterilization is to be made publicly, it should be supported by good data. Not all beekeepers are willing to let their mite-infested colonies die, and seek safe, legal treatments. MiteAwayII appears to be an environmentally-benign product that leaves no residue. I would not want to see its reputation tainted by unfounded claims. Randy Oliver **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 May 2008 08:29:33 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: benefical microorganisms and soft treatments In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Chris Slade asked: > What was the source of 'unfermented pollen'? Now you're really testing my memory, Chris! I'll check. You are absolutely right about foragers inoculating pollen in the field. However, fermentation would require a degree of moisture along with some warmth, and lactic acid fermentation a lack of oxygen. It is unlikely that pollen used in lab experiments would be have been stored under such conditions. Randy Oliver **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 May 2008 16:23:48 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "deknow@netzero.net" Subject: Re: Pollen Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit -- randy oliver wrote: Could anyone please post data to support this claim? >>>to be semantically picky, this was a question, not a claim. that said, this is not what our paper said, or was meant to imply. >>>we were using formic acid, refined sugar and bread yeast as an illustration of what effect something that is seen as a "soft treatment" can do to microorganisms. >>>our thesis is that since the introduction of varroa, the number of substances that beekeepers are willing to put in the hives has increased dramatically...which coincides with the decline in number of bees and beekeepers in this country. given the importance of microorganisms in the hive, we are questioning if this increase in "treatments" has affected the microorganisms in the hive, and what the effect on the bees might be. >>>deknow **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 May 2008 08:40:13 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: benefical microorganisms and soft treatments In-Reply-To: <20080521.093356.20462.2@webmail12.dca.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > > >>>i know you are busy, but a specific cite to a specific study that uses > the methodology you cite above would be helpful. Will do, Dean. You're asking me to do several hours of research review for you, and I have other irons in the fire. I encourage you to continue your research. I'm just cautioning against jumping to conclusions. Randy Oliver **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 May 2008 08:48:17 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: pollen In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Allow me to highlight a few sentences from Pete's post that are especially trenchant to this discussion: > Floral pollen, corbicular pollen, and bee bread stored over time in comb > cells differed in the predominant molds present (Mucor sp. in floral pollen, > penicillia in corbicular pollen and in bee bread stored for 1 week, > aspergilli and penicillia in bee bread stored for 3 weeks, and aspergilli in > bee bread stored for 6 weeks). The chronological progression of species involved in fermentation is of interest. I'm curious as to which stage of fermented pollen is most nutritious? > > > We describe wide-ranging endogenous bacterial taxa that are capable of > inhibiting an important honey bee pathogen and show considerable variation > within and across colonies in the distribution of these taxa. When you look at Evan's data, you see a wide variation in microorganisms from colony to colony, and yard to yard. This suggests that priming colonies with probiotics may be beneficial. Randy Oliver **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 May 2008 19:56:13 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juanse Barros Subject: Re: Pollen In-Reply-To: <3dcef4a10805210821k2e95a0e5he7fff34bb596392f@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Could anyone please post data to support this claim? This is a substantial accusation against formic acid. I can not. On the contrary I run a feeding experiment this summer (february-march) giving pollen supplement and not, putting at the same time pads of formic acid (BioTab not Mite Away) and not. The 300 ones with feeding and formic end the honey season with well over 16 frames with bees, while the 150 ones without feeding or varroa treatment end up with less than 8 frames with bees. The first group have a 10% to 15% varroa load and were given a autum treatment eith amitraz a week ago. The first group shows in more than 20% of the hives PMS and the varroa load average is over 40%. This group was also treated with amitraz but end march. -- Juanse Barros J. APIZUR S.A. Carrera 695 Gorbea - CHILE +56-45-271693 08-3613310 http://apiaraucania.blogspot.com/ juanseapi@gmail.com **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 May 2008 20:21:30 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juanse Barros Subject: How does Fumagilin works? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline "I guess it's a matter of how much is too much. For you, it seems any amount of artificial treatment is too much. Others ar= e not quite that adamant." I guess the idea is to take managment desition based on an informed discussion. So how does fumagilin works? First of all we need the =BFbees or the infected bees? to take the medicati= on for fumagilin to work. If they do so, I understand the efect of fumagilin is on stopping reproduction/multiplication of the spores, but it is not effective against the latent spore. Those stay in the infected bees till they defecate them. Or stay in the hive, either in the bee poo, or in the pollen and honey stored by infected bees. As the spores end in the "feeding line" (by trofalaxia) we need to medicate also the non-infected bees, to prevent the latent spores activate. For how long we need the bees to be medicated before the infecting load in the hive dissapear? The different forms of giving the Fumagilin in autum / spring syrup, plus drenching/spraying, will mean different times/length/duration of medication= . In the drenching mode, it is a high impact treatment. We want that all bees take their part of the medication. We assume that most of the colony individual are infected because they are not taking the syrup. In this mode we must clean the hive and replace the honey and pollen stored or the colony will re infect. When we give fumagilin in autum or spring modes, we have sample the yards, and are giving medication because we see in the microscope spores. How many? This is something in debate I believe. For Nosema apis we were used to check against a threshold. If more than a given number of spores pe= r cubic centimetre of bee were count then treat. With Nosema ceranae it seem we need to know the percentaje of bees infected. Who know how to do this!!!= . I'll prefer to treat if one spore is seen... In spring we suppose there are a few "autum" reservs available in the hive, so if we treat the winter bees left, for there on, the new reservs will be clean, and the reproduction rate of the hive will surpass the development o= f nosema. Some hives (genetic?) will not succeed. We feed "in incetive mode", giving small amounts each week so as to promote the build up of the colony. In autum we will take care, again after sampling, of the the infected hives or the infected yard?. This time we do not want the colony to start breeding, sso we give the medication on a one big dose. We make the supposition that the bees will eat this medicated syrup. --=20 Juanse Barros J. APIZUR S.A. Carrera 695 Gorbea - CHILE +56-45-271693 08-3613310 http://apiaraucania.blogspot.com/ juanseapi@gmail.com **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * ****************************************************