From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 11:15:41 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66DD449096 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 11:03:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SG3Y7c017265 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 11:03:42 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 11:03:36 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0811C" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 469550 Lines: 10173 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2008 08:36:48 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: Caucasian bees In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed In message , Dave Thompson writes >Think of Ukraine 12K yrs ago >covered with ice yr around >Imagine the next 4K yrs as ice melts >Black sea is probably landlocked (& smaller) >Trees grow, get big enough for bees >Easier for bees to miagrate north >than ENE out of mountain valleys I dont know what you are getting at here. No-one has ever suggested that the Primorski area bees arrived there by natural migration. They were taken there by immigrants from western Russia/Ukraine when moving to the distant east. Thus their basic genetics........relative frequencies modified a bit by selection pressures in their new environment........are the product of the area they came from. -- Murray McGregor **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2008 08:52:02 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: Genetic compatibility effects on caste determination In-Reply-To: <1490DEDD49524F3BB3857F2B2066A5DB@office> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed In message <1490DEDD49524F3BB3857F2B2066A5DB@office>, Peter Edwards writes >I am just wondering if a temporary situation would be possible in a >colony, where a large proportion of the workers were from one patriline >but a large proportion of the brood was from a different one. Could >this have a negative (short term) effect on the colony? The simplest case is after requeening. The young queens brood will all be of patrilines at variance with all the patrilines of the adult bees. However, that is a rather facile answer. With stock with varying coloured matings you do occasionally see the queen produce a colour change part way through her life. Its not common but we have seen it, a colony predominantly with yellow phase workers and some black shifts to predominantly dark and some yellow or vica versa. Colour is the only criterion I can say I have seen it happen in, and its not common. I assume that this is due to poor mixing of the sperm in the queen, and if it happens in the way that is noticeable by colour it probably occasionally happens as well when the differences are not obvious. -- Murray McGregor **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 20:13:02 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: The USA is in bad need of new genetics from abroad In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Is the Wholebee Faith something that can be revealed in whole sentences, wh= ole explanations, and whole paragraphs, using common, accepted English words? Reply: Geeh, didn't know it had become a faith.........wholebee concept to me is l= ooking at the whole picture for what is happening, for nature does not work= in sound bites.......so in field managment you learn to look at environmen= t, diet, and breeding concerning honeybees as a whole picture, for you cann= ot do or change one without effecting the others. Just basic common sense t= o me. Like breeding, food, and shelter to other animals. =A0 Dee A. Lusby =0A=0A=0A **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2008 10:11:43 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Parasitism in the honey bee colony In-Reply-To: <899070.79364.qm@web51609.mail.re2.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All My apologies for excessive quoting, but I believe that pedantry and precision are required in this message I originally said... > Indeed it is a useful bridge mechanism that allows propagation of genes to > further generations in the case such as a queen not returning from her mating > flight, but overall it seems so rare that we should not make a song and dance > about it. Although not stated, I was talking about beekeeping in US and Europe and other places where A. m. capensis is not a factor. Dee said... Well this is just a splendid reply for what it actually is Dave. So you tell me then, just what are cape bee take overs then, other then those that really don'tknow what is going on! Dee Which I will gladly reply to if the question can be phrased in a way that I can understand. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://melliferabees.net Email: dave.cushman@lineone.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 7.21/2.01 Son of ORAC M/c, Build 5.o1/2.o1 **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2008 10:44:14 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: FW: The USA is in bad need of new genetics from abroad In-Reply-To: <9120.84344.qm@web51609.mail.re2.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all Taking the subject line as the question, I say that there is no need for any importation at least initially. The concept that "populations will stabilize and adapt" may be true, but left to nature, will be a very slow process. I see it as the breeder's responsibility to make selections that are sympathetic to and reinforce the traits that suit local conditions, thus generating a bee that fits the environment it is in, once stability has been achieved then the bees can be further selected for more complex traits like honey gathering. After stability has been achieved (ten to twenty years) it may be prudent to look for genes from further afield in the form of eggs and/or semen providing suitable bio-security is applied to the process. The trouble is that to do this selection work the breeder must understand what the bee he is working with actually is in racial terms, what its behaviours are and how to recognise and measure the purity of breeding achieved. However we as beekeepers are urged to breed from our 'best' colonies and most people consider 'best' to equate to a high yield of honey per hive, so these high yielding colonies are the ones used to breed from, when in many cases the high honey yield will be more to do with robbing propensity and hybrid vigour than any genetic disposition to gather a large honey crop. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://melliferabees.net Email: dave.cushman@lineone.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 7.21/2.01 Son of ORAC M/c, Build 5.o1/2.o1 **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2008 12:53:28 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter L Borst Subject: Re: Parasitism in the honey bee colony MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Dee: Now for workers to lay fertilized egges is good too, and a great back up system. and intercastes have been written about going back decades.......but how to trigger and use them!!! Reply: No, workers do not lay fertilized eggs. They may very rarely be female, but they are never fertilized. Dee: So you tell me then, just what are cape bee take overs then, other then those that really don't know what is going on! Reply: This, from someone who does know what is "going on", Madeleine Beekman: > Given that the current *Capensis calamity* is caused by the clonal offspring of one Capensis worker, it is interesting to ponder if that ancestral worker had unique characteristics or if selection for increased competitiveness among workers has predisposed many Capensis workers toward reproductive parasitism. > The mixing of Capensis with non- Capensis genotypes within one colony results in a cascade of events caused by pheromonal imbalances between the two subspecies, ultimately resulting in the death of the host colony due to the *lack of workers that actually perform worker tasks*. > When workers are thelytokous, workers of different subfamilies are selected to compete over which individuals produce the next generation of queens, and an evolutionary arms race over worker-reproductive competitiveness ensues. The end result appears to be the inability of workers to distinguish between eggs laid by a queen and those laid by workers, probably because all eggs now appear to be queen laid. This failure provides enhanced opportunities for intraspecific parasitism both by natal and non-natal workers and is particularly lethal when subspecies are mixed anthropogenically [ ... that is, by ignorant beekeepers ] see: "When Workers Disunite: Intraspecific Parasitism by Eusocial Bees" Madeleine Beekman and Benjamin P. Oldroyd **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2008 10:00:20 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Parasitism in the honey bee colony In-Reply-To: <491EA05F.4010402@lineone.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Okay, since this trait is known to be in ALL races/strains of bees....why i= s cape bee any different, and since we had it here especially in our area f= or decades using with our own honeybees, what is the difference in your min= d, especially since I have seen no changes in my area other then politics f= or money!! for you just don't start calling a caucasian type similar strain= then something else.............and I will not change my management ways a= nd in fact have never seen a need to, and with all today's bees dying, even= more reason not to change.........You see to me it is man created problems= by not following the bees needs in how they fit into Nature. =A0 D =0A=0A=0A **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2008 11:09:25 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Allen Dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Wholebee Concept MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > ...wholebee concept to me is looking at the whole picture for what is > happening, for nature does not work in sound bites.......so in field > managment you learn to look at environment, diet, and breeding concerning > honeybees as a whole picture, for you cannot do or change one without > effecting the others. Just basic common sense to me. Like breeding, food, > and shelter to other animals. Seems to me that this is not a new idea, but is part and parcel of most breeding programmes. There may be exceptions where bees are bred for special purposes, like SMR (VSH) where only one trait is pursued, and others ignored, however, successful commercial breeders must consider the purpose of the stocks they select and the likely conditions under which they can be expected to be used. Similarly, beekeepers, when purchasing stock consider whether they have problems to overcome, like harsh winters, short flows, long dearths, or plugging with excess pollen, and look for bees that have been selected for those conditions. Successful commercial beekeepers have to consider the whole picture, plus potential surprises when managing their bees. I had not heard the term, "wholebee", before, so -- if indeed this is a new movement or philosophy and not just an accidental creation of a new word -- maybe you could distinguish how "wholebee" breeding and management differs from the breeding and management that is non-wholebee, and perhaps give examples? Thanks. allen --- Creativity often consists of merely turning up what is already there. Did you know that right and left shoes were thought up only a little more than a century ago? Bernice Fitz-Gibbon **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2008 12:21:30 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Wholebee Concept In-Reply-To: <239762FA0B5146C4946B81FCDD181CBB@Aristotle> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Seems to me that this is not a new idea, but is part and parcel of most breeding programmes. =A0 Reply: I don't really think so with today's factory farming and too many just doin= g for queens and/or one particular trait. And this to me has been going on = more and more since mid to late 1980s fwiw IMPOV, =A0 Continuing: Successful commercial beekeepers have to consider the whole picture, plus potential surprises when managing their bees. =A0 Reply: Yes, but do they actually, for if they do then why the large volume of fact= ory farmed queens to commercial beekeepers and/or them raising queens with = such artificialness to not be long term doable? For it was certainly writte= n long ago the problems queens would have with coumaphos and fluvalinate an= d bees in general as contaminates built up, and I am not even talking the a= rtificial feeds they are doing also yet, nor movement and intense mongreliz= ation that tears apart genetics again IMPOV with bees then that end up fitt= ing NO place so are eliminated by Nature..............not that I would say = that!......but I am. =A0 You can move bees to a point, but up and down the ladder, and perhaps one l= ong haul a year for short term, but not constantly!!!! and more regional ke= pt the better. =A0 Dee A. Lusby. =0A=0A=0A **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2008 16:27:39 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter L Borst Subject: Re: Parasitism in the honey bee colony MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Dee writes: > Okay, since this trait is known to be in ALL races/strains of bees....why is cape bee any different? I have already explained in great detail why the Cape Bee is different. But to elaborate further: evidently laying workers are present in all colonies but under normal circumstances, their eggs are eaten by the other workers. This is called worker policing and serves the purpose of ensuring that all the workers, drones and queens produced in the colony come from the reigning queen. Look at it like a palace. The Queen wants only her offspring ruling in the palace. If the servants start putting their own babies in the cradles and raising them up as royalty, eventually one of them could become Queen and throw the royalty out on their butts. So any non-royal babies are eaten (in the honey bee colony, not the palace). When this all breaks down is when the colony goes queenless. Then all bets are off since the colony is doomed anyway. If a laying worker produces a female egg, then there is a final shot at saving the colony. This has no practical merit in beekeeping terms as far as I am concerned. Proper beekeeping would have gotten rid of the queenless colony long before this. This trait might seem attractive to someone who likes to let the bees do their own thing, but modern beekeeping has more to do with raising queens and nucs on a schedule, than the catch as catch can method practiced under more primitive circumstances. The Cape Bee is *different* in that it is a disastrous parasite, which this whole thread has been about, look at the subject! Parasitism in the honey bee colony. The normal honey bee colony has a very effective system for preventing this but evidently in the Cape Bee, the thelytoky trait became dominant. And when ignorant beekeepers moved the Cape Bee into the scutellata territory, the result was a wipe out. Explains Robert Danka, research entomologist at the U.S. Department of Agriculture's Honey Bee Breeding, Genetics and Physiology Laboratory in Baton Rouge, La.: "Pseudoqueens don't work like workers and they aren't normally as reproductive as regular queens. The colony becomes dysfunctional and you wind up with a bunch of weird misfits." "An introduction of Cape bees to alleviate problems with Africanized bees," he says, "would be exactly wrong for beekeeping according to most beekeepers who have experience with both bee types in Africa." Danka explains Cape bees would invade not only the colonies of killer bees, but also virtually all bee colonies, causing them to become nonproductive or to die. Cape bee genes could mix with those of our honeybees, ruining hundreds of years of selective breeding. He adds, "In the end, it may be summed up that, at least for beekeepers, the problems posed by Africanized bees are less than those posed by Cape bees." Dee writes: > You see to me it is man created problems by not following the bees needs in how they fit into Nature. Yes, well, of course bees would be better off if we just left them alone and didn't try to make a living off of their efforts. In this regard perhaps the hobby beekeepers are the keepers of the faith insofar as they are beekeepers because they love bees and not because they are trying to cash them in. But seriously folks, the whole man versus nature, man as a part of nature, nature's plan song and dance is a dead end street. We can discuss this until our last dying breath and never sort it out. How can mankind be anything *other* than part of nature? Where did we get off the merry go round? On the other hand, what -- if anything, of our activities seem truly natural, these days? As Bill McKibben so painfully announced in his book "The End of Nature", there is scarcely a single thing that you can point to that hasn't been affected by human activity from the land and sea to the air we breathe. But this is where beekeeping goes from being science based to faith based. When somebody starts saying that their way is better just because its their way, and mine is not because it doesn't fit into nature's plan nor agrees with theirs, that's when we have reached the dead end. By the way, one could very easily make a case that the real parasite here is the beekeeper. KENNETH W. TUCKER: One percent or less of the progeny from unfertilized eggs of unmated queens and laying workers were exceptional bees, of which 97 percent were workers, two percent gynandromorphs, and one percent mosaic drones. Unmated queens of most lines produced only a few workers, but one exceptional producer (37 workers) occurred in one of the Leather-colored Italian lines, and several exceptional producers (5 to 13 workers) were found in a Yellow Italian line. The gynandromorphs exhibited variable proportions of male and female tissues in their external and internal morphology. Two of them had very little female tissue and were otherwise similar to the mosaic males. The female parts were either queen or worker in different bees. It is concluded that the automictic workers are derived from the union of two haploid nuclei formed by complete meiosis. Union of the two egg pronuclei forms a diploid cleavage nucleus which develops into a worker. Additional info: Automictic is defined as a reproduction resulting when the set of chromosomes acquired from the mother, pairs with an exact copy of itself, which can be described as "half a clone". The animal still is unique and not a clone of her mother. Geneticists confirmed a case of birth without mating in a bonnethead shark, one of the smaller hammerhead species. That makes sharks the fifth major vertebrate lineage with documented virgin births. DNA analysis of its tissues revealed no evidence of genes other than its mother's. This kind of reproduction, parthenogenesis, "is probably more widespread" than biologists have realized, comments Ed Heist of Southern Illinois University in Carbondale. Parthenogenesis may seem weird to people, but DNA analysis has confirmed some form of it among bony fish, amphibians, reptiles, and birds. "I think mammals are the odd ones," Heist says. Maybe so, but I am still with Danka, keep traveling down that road and you wind up with a bunch of weird misfits. -- Peter L Borst Danby, NY USA 42.35, -76.50 http://picasaweb.google.com/peterlborst **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2008 13:57:46 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Genetic compatibility effects on caste determination In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I assume that this is due to poor mixing of the sperm in the queen, and if it happens in the way that is noticeable by colour it probably occasiona= lly happens as well when the differences are not obvious. Reply: This LIFO and FIFO has been talked about in the past much and whether queen= or whether not queen can adjust/shift sperm at will, but is not something = most all beekeepers look at in rearing of queens unfortunately and how it w= orks, due to artificial insemination coming on board and the stirring of al= l sperm together......which to me is not natural in a way. But much researc= h was paid for on this to few good O/S researcher(s) way back....... =A0 Dee =0A=0A=0A **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2008 17:42:30 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Parasitism in the honey bee colony MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 15/11/2008 03:26:32 GMT Standard Time, deelusbybeekeeper@YAHOO.COM writes: Now for workers to lay fertilized eggs Are they fertilised ie as the result of mating; or are they just fertile? In fact, is either the correct word? Maybe 'diploid' as opposed to 'haploid' would be more accurate and avoid confusion. Chris **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2008 15:56:19 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Allen Dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: The USA is in bad need of new genetics from abroad MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >I think it is important to keep in mind that the same hive of bees >could be moved anywhere in the western hemisphere from Northern Alberta >to Tierra del Fuego, and be expected to both overwinter and make a >harvestable crop of honey. Yes, it would need to be wrapped to >overwinter in Allen's backyard, and it would need ventilation to >overwinter well in mine, but these same concerns would apply to >humans trying to endure the winter weather unique to each location. I had thought that, too, but discovered it is not entirely true. A case in point is 100 packages I purchased from New Zealand many years ago and installed in three different yards. They were the prettiest bees I ever had, and they were literally golden in colour. They produced honey, but were noticeably vicious. I wrapped them for winter, the same as all my yards, but by spring almost none in those three yards were alive, whereas the other yards had normal losses. Of course, this does not prove the point conclusively, but other experience over the years, plus comments by my friends who run thousands of hives and thus have reasonable sample sizes when comparing stocks, indicate there are large differences in winter hardiness between bees from different sources. One example I recall was mention that Kona Italians did not winter nearly as well as the Carniolans one particular year. (That is particularly interesting since I understand they are open mated). Additionally, Africanized strains are reputed to not winter well in cold climates, although Dewey Caron noted an apparent exception in Bolivia (from a personal conversation). Strains recently mentioned here recently, incorporating genes sent north by Kerr and distributed by USDA also had wintering difficulties reportedly. As for honey production, we bought stock for several years from a breeder in the mountains of BC. His claim was that the stock was winter hardy, and it was survival was fantastic, but the hives barely made a crop. They managed to get built up and heavy for winter just in time, though. We figured it out pretty quickly and replaced them with more productive bees that wintered acceptably, but maybe not quite as well. So, although I would say that, in general, there is some truth to the statement, in particular cases there may be huge differences, and they are well known in commercial circles. Right Bob? allen --- Honest disagreement is often a good sign of progress. Mahatma Gandhi (1869-1948) **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2008 16:37:36 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Allen Dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: Wholebee Concept MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I don't really think so with today's factory farming I have a hard time understanding what you are saying. Are you saying that beekeepers are running factory farms, or operating on property owned by factory farms, and how does that affect things we are discussing? > and too many just doing for queens I cannot parse this. What does, "doing for queens", mean? Perhaps this is a regional term? >and/or one particular trait. You may be right about some breeding for one particular trait but I suspect that they are not likely eliminating many others, or particularly focused, As a result they are likely propagating bees that have done well for them and their customers. Seeing as the bulk of sales are to beekeepers who buy large numbers of queens and compare stock constantly -- and are quite critical -- I should think that anyone who is thriving in the queen business must be supplying stock that is well appreciated by the customers and consists of well-adapted and robust bees. > And this to me has been going on more and more since mid to late 1980s > fwiw IMPOV, I am not sure exactly what you mean. > Yes, but do they actually, for if they do then why the large volume of > factory farmed queens to commercial beekeepers I wonder what you mean by factory farmed queens. Are you suggesting that the techniques used by large queen producers are different somehow from the techniques you use? If so, in what way? > and/or them raising queens with such artificialness to not be long term > doable? I can't figure out what you mean. What is going to happen in the long term to make the "raising queens with such artificialness " not "doable". > For it was certainly written long ago the problems queens would have with > coumaphos and fluvalinate and bees in general as contaminates built up That is no secret, and these chemicals affect both queens and drones. Their presence in hives is well documented. Is it greater in the hives of queen breeders? From attending meetings of breeders I know they are well aware of the risks and are doing whatever they can to mitigate the situation. > and I am not even talking the artificial feeds they are doing I am not clear on what constitutes an "artificial feed". Could you be more specific? And also explain exactly what these "artificial feeds" are proven do to the bees? > also yet, nor movement and intense mongrelization that tears apart > genetics again IMPOV Movement and intense mongrelization. Hmmm. Are these related somehow? And what distinguishes "intense mongrelization" from simple mongrelization? Where is the boundary, and if there is mongrelization, then are we to assume that there are purebred bees? > You can move bees to a point, but up and down the ladder "The ladder"? Is that a metaphor? > and perhaps one long haul a year for short term, but not constantly!!!! That sounds like a reference to migratory beekeeping, but I can't figure out the part about the ladder. > and more regional kept the better. "regional kept" means nothing to me. I know you have some very interesting ideas. We have discussed them at length in the past, and you and wrote some very clear and understandable articles detailing your thoughts and experiences, but I am having a great deal of trouble understanding your recent posts, as have others to whom I have spoken. I hope you can clarify the ideas above. Thanks in advance. allen --- Discovery consists in seeing what everyone else has seen and thinking what no one else has thought. Albert Szent-Gyorgi , 1937 Nobel Prize in Physiology and Medicine **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2008 16:46:52 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Allen Dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Niagara Falls MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I wonder if anyone has mentioned the upcoming 2009 Annual Canadian Beekeepers Convention. The meeting is to be held at the Hilton Hotel Niagara Falls, on December 10-13, 2008 Participating are: The CANADIAN HONEY COUNCIL and CANADIAN ASSOCIATION OF PROFESSIONAL APICULTURISTS and ONTARIO BEEKEEPERS ASSOCIATION. I went in 2002 and it was a good meeting. Niagara is also one of Canada's two wine regions, with plenty of tours and tastings. (Better than Napa IMO). Drop me a line in my forum if you are going and want to get together. I have not yet committed, but am thinking seriously. Useful links: http://www.honeycouncil.ca/users/getdownload.asp@DownloadID=324.htm http://www.honeycouncil.ca/users/folder.asp@FolderID=4998.htm allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/forum/ --- Do not fear to be eccentric in opinion, for every opinion now accepted was once eccentric. Bertrand Russell (1872-1970) **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2008 19:56:27 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: FW: The USA is in bad need of new genetics from abroad MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 15/11/2008 12:45:12 GMT Standard Time, dave.cushman@LINEONE.NET writes: to make selections that are sympathetic to and reinforce the traits that suit local conditions, thus generating a bee that fits the environment it is in, Is that the local environment at the almonds, the oranges, the canola, the blueberries, the truckstops in between or the winter aggregations? Chris **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2008 20:02:29 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Wholebee Concept MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 15/11/2008 19:02:22 GMT Standard Time, allendick@GMAIL.COM writes: or plugging with excess pollen, This is something I haven't come across. Can you explain please? Chris **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 11:51:31 +1100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Buntine Subject: A most un-academic request MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Can anyone suggest a method of converting the crystallised honey in = frames into a honey that can extracted. I have heard that the bees = themselves will do the job if the frame is scratched/scoured with a = knife then placed between combs of brood. Can anyone confirm? Bob Buntine **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2008 21:19:43 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Allen_Dick?= Subject: Plugging with Excess Pollen Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > > or plugging with excess pollen, > This is something I haven't come across. Can you explain please? In the 70s, in Northern Alberta, in the famous Peace River honey-producing area, the pollen was often so abundant, and the days so long, that bees we known to pack their brood combs to such an extent in the fall after brood ceased that beekeepers would pull pollen combs by the palletload and trade them straight across for empty combs from Southern Alberta where beekeepers had problems with pollen shortage. Otherwise, they claimed, there was no place for the queen to lay. Significant differences in pollen gathering tendancies have been identified in bees and the characteristic is one that can be selected fairly easily. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ --- A clever man commits no minor blunders. Johann Wolfgang von Goethe (1749-1832) **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2008 19:25:44 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Allen Dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: A method of converting the crystallised honey in frames MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Can anyone suggest a method of converting the crystallised honey in frames > into a honey that can extracted. I have heard that the bees themselves > will do the job if the frame is scratched/scoured with a knife then placed > between combs of brood. Yes, within reason. Moreover, we used to scratch them with a hive tool or cappings scratcher and place them between empty combs and/or foundation in the centre of the super immediately above the excluder. Three or so would be replaced by liquid honey by the time we made our first pull. Did they use it and replace it or just liquefy it? I don't know, but it always worked if done early in the season. We sometimes did the same thing on the second pull, too. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ --- A great many people think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices. William James (1842-1910) **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2008 06:19:02 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Why The Wiki Page on CCD is So Lame MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A certain Mr. Doug Yanega, who appears to maintain a bug collection for a "museum" at UC Riverside, seems to have some highly unusual and entertaining opinions about CCD, and he is not at all shy about accusing beekeepers of being solely responsible for creating CCD themselves with nothing more than miticide misuse and abuse and, in his words, "careless or incompetent beekeeping". http://tinyurl.com/5c5ce3 or http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2823/why-are-the-bees-disappearing For the self-proclaimed "#1 authority on disappearing bees", (yes, he actually claims this in the web page I cite above!) presumably because he has enough time on his hands to have elbowed more knowledgeable people aside and become an "editor" for the Wikipedia page on CCD, he sure needs some help from us. E-mail him at dyanega@ucr.edu and send him some slightly more up-to-date info on CCD than what he has read in the mainstream layman's press and on the internets. Explain to him that CCD spreads between hives just like a disease spreads, and has been known to do so for quite some time. Doug seems oblivious to the obvious plausibility problem inherent in accusing a wide range of divergent operations of misusing what would have to be the same chemical(s) in exactly the same manner, and seeing the same very strange results, all at different times and in different places. He is so completely unaware of the on-the-ground reality, that he even thinks that the problem has "gone away": "In short, what's happened is pretty much what I expected would happen: the CCD threat got blown out of proportion; lots of people came up with wild conjectures to explain it, none of which panned out; the dramatic phenomenon didn't repeat itself; and now people only dimly recall what all the fuss was about. I very much get the feeling that what many of us were saying about careless or incompetent beekeeping - i.e., that hive management skills had a lot to do with which beekeepers were affected - was right on the money, and the reason that the die-offs weren't as severe this year, and that the research has not been altogether revealing, is because all those incompetent beekeepers either (a) are out of business or (b) wised up when they realized that people were now paying attention to their iffy practices." This sort of fringe viewpoint combined with the hubris of claiming armchair expertise in an area where he has contributed nothing at all is an illustration of the basic problem with the internet as a valid information source. While it is fitting that those with no life at all and lots of free time on their hands are the ones motivated enough to create extensive resources for the use of the rest of us who do have lives, the net quality of the information is far out-of-date, and no better than the worst of what appears in "the press". Doug seems to still be unaware that the spread of CCD symptoms has been seen by multiple credentialed witnesses as it moved from colony to colony within larger apiaries, and he is utterly uninformed about Jerry B's work with hives that collapsed before Jerry's very watchful eyes, including one colony in an observation hive. Jerry, who did much pioneering work in measuring environmental contaminants with bees, is not about to misuse miticides, and cannot easily be accused of "incompetent beekeeping". I'd go into more detail, but Doug admits to being the party responsible for the complete mess that is the Wikipedia page on CCD, so all I need say about his claims is: [Citation Needed] **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2008 07:57:25 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Caucasian bees In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable So the suggestion here is that migratory people 8K to 12K years ago had dev= eloped to the point where they took colonies of bees with them as they migr= ated?=A0=A0 Hummmmm.=A0 Is there evidence that the poeples in that region e= ven kept bees instead of robbing bee trees?=A0 I don't know.=A0 Haven't res= earched that concept. Mike in LA --- On Sat, 11/15/08, Murray McGregor wrote: Thompson writes >Think of Ukraine 12K yrs ago >covered with ice yr around >Imagine the next 4K yrs as ice melts ... the Primorski area bees arrived there by natural migration. They were= =20 taken there by immigrants from western Russia/Ukraine ... --=20 Murray McGregor =0A=0A=0A **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 04:49:56 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "deknow@netzero.net" Subject: a pretty good article on ccd Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit a non-beekeeping friend sent me this...aside from a beekeeper "losing certification", i thought it was pretty good (although i'm sure some will object to the mention of iapv). http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2823/why-are-the-bees-disappearing deknow **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2008 21:27:54 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: A most un-academic request In-Reply-To: <31A322653950496BBB7020461B5EC409@oemuser> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable That's what I am fighting with last 18 yards to work bedding down, figuing = it will take another=A0 1 1 /2 to 2 months. It takes a hot room or hot hone= yhouse with heat enough=A0and humdity and about twice the time to get out. = Also extractors are set as slow as possible spinning to not tear combs (run= ning currently at 200rpm) and honey does set back up in barrels once out. =A0 Dee =0A=0A=0A **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2008 21:33:42 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Plugging with Excess Pollen In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Okay, neat question for you as I get hives plugged with pollen more so then= honey in broodnest at times. In times of dearth and bad drought, etc......= ...will hives survive better on lots of =A0honey and some pollen, or lots o= f pollen and some honey, and/or just packed honey/pollen frames? =A0 Dee =A0 =A0=0A=0A=0A **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2008 21:38:55 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: A method of converting the crystallised honey in frames In-Reply-To: <01AE300DACDD4AA2AD3F4F2BCF9D7B16@Aristotle> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Allen, is this cost effective in time and labor back and forth to beeyards = and then extracting, though I know what I do heating with humidity takes ti= me, but I save backtracking and labor in the field driving too! But some ti= mes you have to get the honey out to avoid roadblocks in spring for buildup= s too in brooding strong colonies! =A0 Dee =0A=0A=0A **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 01:33:14 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Why The Wiki Page on CCD is So Lame MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I gave up on the Wiki page months ago. It started out sort of right, then kept getting edited, and with each edit the story became increasingly wrong. I tried to correct it a few times, but every time, it just got changed back by others - so I gave up. That's the problem with Wiki pages and most blogs - no one knows who the self-proclaimed expert might be, or whether they've any real knowledge of the subject. No sense writing about CCD, making corrections based on actual observations and extensive sampling, just to have folks who have never even seen CCD re-write history on the Wiki page. Its a frustrating experience and a waste of time. I don't know who keeps changing the Wike page - I'd think that Doug would know better. Regardless, with each edit it gets farther removed from reality. Jerry **************You Rock! One month of free movies delivered by mail from blockbuster.com (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1212639737x1200784900/aol?redir=https://www.blockbuster.com/signup/y/reg/p.26978/r.email_footer) **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 01:57:42 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Allen_Dick?= Subject: Re: Plugging with Excess Pollen Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > In times of dearth and bad drought, etc.........will hives survive better on lots of  honey and some pollen, or lots of pollen and some honey, and/or just packed honey/pollen frames? Bees need both in the long term. They can live for quite a while on honey without pollen, but not for long on pollen without honey. If they are raising brood, bees need both pollen and honey. If they are just waiting for the brooding season, they need much less pollen. It is the young bees of a specific age that eat pollen, I have heard, but older bees must also if they are called upon to raise brood, I would think. Pollen should be covered by honey for longest storage, but open pollen frames are OK, too. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com --- Food, one assumes, provides nourishment; but Americans eat it fully aware that small amounts of poison have been added to improve its appearance and delay its putrefaction. -- John Cage **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 02:19:06 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Allen_Dick?= Subject: Re: A method of converting the crystallised honey in frames Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > Allen, is this cost effective in time and labor back and forth to beeyards and then extracting, though I know what I do heating with humidity takes time, but I save backtracking and labor in the field driving too! For us it has been cost-effective, especially when the price of honey was high, and the granulated honey was so hard that a hive tool would barely gouge it. At one time, I built a steam room and tried that approach, but depending on the type of honey, the temperature needed to make it flow can high enough to sag the combs. It was for that honey, so I found another way. We don't have the trek out into the desert you do, and our trucks handle the weight well. We usually only put two or three frames in a box at most. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com --- I do not like broccoli. And I haven't liked it since I was a little kid and my mother made me eat it. And I'm President of the United States and I'm not going to eat any more broccoli. -- George Bush I , U.S. president, 1990 **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 02:25:42 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Why The Wiki Page on CCD is So Lame MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable OK, Deknow provided confirmation - the article on CCD starts with this bold=20= =20 statement about the Wiki page: =20 "SDSTAFF Doug replies: =20 Not to brag, but thanks to Wikipedia I've become the #1 authority on=20 disappearing bees. Type "colony collapse disorder" into Google and hit retu= rn =E2=80=93 the=20 top hit is the Wikipedia page I maintain on the subject. (In real life I'm=20= an=20 entomologist with the University of California at Riverside.) Here's a=20 summary..."=20 I'm sorry, but writing about something does not make one the #1 authority o= n=20 disappearing bees. =20 Anyone can write anything that they like, doesn't make them an expert. And= ,=20 if you keep deleting corrections by scientists actually studying the=20 problem, then you become the #1 promoter of disinformation. =20 Unless one has seen and studied this disorder, all of the information is=20 second hand, anecdotal, or worse. =20 For an author who decries the errors of the press, the overstatements of th= e=20 media, one has to ask, what are his information sources other than the medi= a=20 and a scattering of journal articles and maybe some oral and anecdotal=20 comments? Much of the current research is NOT even published yet, and I ha= ven't=20 seen him at any of the CCD meetings or working with any of the CCD=20 investigators. Don't remember any e-mails or calls. =20 Anyway, I also have a degree in Entomology (Ph.D., 1973), but that doesn't=20 make me an expert on CCD. =20 Even after seeing CCD in bee operations across most of the U.S., watching=20 CCD hives collapse and conducting sequential sampling and testing, working=20= with=20 Dave Wick on over 600 IVDS screenings of viruses in bees, processing=20 thousands of data points from Proteomics MS, and compiling a summary of ove= r 700=20 surveys from more than 40 states, I still would hesitate to call myself an=20 expert on CCD, much less the #1 authority. =20 However, I'm reasonably sure that I know more about this Disorder than=20 someone sitting in a museum, whose speciality is naming and storing insects= =20 (systematics). And, much of the information on the Wiki site about CCD is=20= wrong,=20 as Jim has pointed out.=20 And no, Einstein didn't state anything about bees - we checked with the=20 library in Israel when all of this first started - our own university made= this=20 mistake, much to our chagrin. We confirmed that Einstein didn't talk about= =20 bees, and we even ran to ground the origin of the quote - it was made up by= a=20 group to support their own point of view on another issue, long before CCD=20 was an issue. Another case of making up a quote to fit a point of view, ra= ther=20 than research the issue. So, Doug doesn't have to assume that Einstein=20 didn't say this, since he died before CCD. Rather, a bit of research would= have=20 revealed the proper citation - and clearly it wasn't Einstein - no need to=20 guess or assume this, its a matter of record.=20 Unfortunately, I have to agree with Jim. Its amazing that a museum staffer= =20 becomes the world's self-proclaimed expert on bees and CCD. Its hard to kn= ow=20 what his specialty is, other than being a curator and going out to collect= =20 insects for the collection. He does give occassional talks about bark=20 beetles. I couldn't find a resume or publication list anywhere, unlike mos= t of the=20 faculty at UC Riverside. I can't help but wonder whether he checks any of=20 his facts with Kirk Visscher or Ring Carde. They conduct research on bees=20= at=20 Riverside.=20 I'm disappointed. I thought that the misinformation was coming from an=20 overly enthusiastic citizen, maybe a beekeeper or a student with too much t= ime on=20 their hands. At least then, one might excuse the lack of citations, fact=20 checking. In the meantime, I ignore the Wiki site, gave up trying to fix i= t=20 long ago.=20 Jerry=20 **************You Rock! One month of free movies delivered by mail from=20 blockbuster.com=20 (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1212639737x1200784900/aol?redir=3Dh= ttps://www.blockbuster.com/signup/y/reg/p.26978/r.email_footer) **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 04:38:14 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: A most un-academic request MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 16/11/2008 01:33:22 GMT Standard Time, avenelhoneyfarm@BIGPOND.COM writes: the bees themselves will do the job if the frame is scratched/scoured with a knife If you are going to do this then you may as well go the whole hog. I have successfully used an ice cream scoop to scrape combs down to the midrib. The resulting mix of wax and honey is then GENTLY warmed to liquify the honey, not the wax and then it is strained in the normal way. Sticky frames of what is now foundation can go back to the bees. There will still be some honey mixed with the wax. This can be dealt with in 3 ways: feed it back to the bees; squeeze it in a fruit press; extract it biologically using water and yeast. Chris **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 04:47:45 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Plugging with Excess Pollen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 16/11/2008 03:44:21 GMT Standard Time, allendick@GMAIL.COM writes: beekeepers would pull pollen combs by the palletload and trade them So pollen (bee bread) is a tradeable item. It should do well in health food stores too, maybe preserved in honey. It is probably more valuable then 'excess honey' both to the bees and in the market place. Chris **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 10:14:09 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: FW: The USA is in bad need of new genetics from abroad In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Chris > Is that the local environment at the almonds, the oranges, the canola, the > blueberries, the truckstops in between or the winter aggregations? I was referring to a non-migratory system, but I see no reason that a bee strain could not be developed that could cope with migratory conditions, better than a locally adapted strain, although I suspect that its characters would not be particularly of economic benefit as they may be smaller colonies and not so industrious. After all it is quite likely that the first colonies brought into 'domestication' would have been absorbed into the transhumance lifestyle of the tribes that wished to have honey and wax wherever they went. -- Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://melliferabees.net Email: dave.cushman@lineone.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 7.21/2.01 Son of ORAC M/c, Build 5.o1/2.o1 **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 11:17:03 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Parasitism in the honey bee colony In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Peter > I have already explained in great detail why the Cape Bee is > different. But to elaborate further: evidently laying workers are > present in all colonies but under normal circumstances, their eggs are > eaten by the other workers. This is called worker policing and serves > the purpose of ensuring that all the workers, drones and queens > produced in the colony come from the reigning queen. We are not talking about laying workers in the sense that they can occur in queenless colonies. We are talking about a very small number of worker bees in a small percentage of colonies and we describe them as anarchic, because their behaviour does not fit the norm. This is partly due to minor development of functional ovioles (much smaller number than queens) these can be considered almost as pseudo queens and they mainly lay drones. In any case the majority of these eggs are eaten, but something of the order of one in a million develops into an adult drone and is added to the available gene pool. We know these drones are fertile as they can be reared to maturity under lab conditions. Of this one in a million there will be a small percentage of eggs that become diploid during the early stages of development and these eggs can become workers or queens according to how the bees feed the resulting larva. Sounds good as a backup mechanism, but when you realise that the number of times that diploid eggs occurs is again about one in a million of those that survive eating, then we are not likely to be overrun by bees that exhibit this trait. For more info look at the work of the following... Francis Ratnieks, http://www.lasi.group.shef.ac.uk/flwrpub.html Ben Oldroyd http://www.bio.usyd.edu.au/Social_InsectsLab/Ben/benpublications.htm Madeline Beekman http://www.bio.usyd.edu.au/Social_InsectsLab/Madeleine/madeleinepublications.htm Steve Martin http://www.lasi.group.shef.ac.uk/smpub.html Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://melliferabees.net Email: dave.cushman@lineone.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 7.21/2.01 Son of ORAC M/c, Build 5.o1/2.o1 **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 09:18:57 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Peter_L_Borst?= Subject: Re: Why The Wiki Page on CCD is So Lame Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Jerry Thanks for taking the time and trouble to articulate what many of us have been thinking for some time now. The internet is a great resource but no better than a really good library. And like a library, it is organized by subject, not according to quality. Lots of facts, fiction, fantasy, -- pick your passion. Peter **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 09:22:51 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Peter_L_Borst?= Subject: Re: A most un-academic request Comments: To: Robert Buntine Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi I have had to deal with hundreds of frames of granulated honey at times. I recommend placing these frames in a super *below* the brood nest of good colonies, especially at times when little honey is coming in. They do not want honey below the nest. Normally honey is stored above the nest, away from the entrance. In most cases they will either move it up, eat it, or throw it out. Peter Borst **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 09:27:41 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_L_Borst?= Subject: Re: Parasitism in the honey bee colony Comments: To: Dave Cushman Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dave Cushman wrote: >We are not talking about laying workers in the sense that they can occur >in queenless colonies. Hi Dave I don't really see that these are different. Workers laying eggs are the same in queenless as queenright colonies. It is just that the evidence of their efforts is quite obvious in hopelessly queenless colonies. But I have not heard anyone credibly propose that when honey bee workers lay eggs we are witnessing anything other than a weird anomaly; what I would refer to as an evolutionary artifact, like nipples on a man. Peter Borst **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 07:46:40 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Allen Dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: Why The Wiki Page on CCD is So Lame MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I gave up on the Wiki page months ago. It started out sort of right, > then kept getting edited, and with each edit the story became increasingly > wrong. I tried to correct it a few times, but every time, it just got > changed back by others - so I gave up. I'm presuming were are talking about the pages at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colony_collapse_disorder? Thanks to Jim for bringing this up and to Jerry for corroborating his report. I must confess that, not having really paid attention, and having not taken the time to examine that page in detail, I would not have realized that the reporting there is somewhat slanted, incomplete or inaccurate. In the past, when visiting Wikipedia, I have noticed that some topics are labeled prominently as being controversial, with reference to alternate viewpoints, questionable, incomplete or slanted, so I wonder -- if the real experts question the information presented -- then why does this page not do so, and what is the mechanism to impeach the imposter and get recognition for the real experts who spend their time actually examining beehives and analyzing the phenomenon? I also wonder if there is one comprehensive website somewhere that contains authoritative details, ongoing discussion between CCD researchers, or a direct rebuttal; of the Wikipedia article. If not there should be, and such a page or pages and they should be able to maintain a stable link, at least, from the Wikipedia pages. Perhaps participating in the wiki is a waste of time, but putting the same amount of effort into authoritative pages would not. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/ --- Health food makes me sick. Calvin Trillin **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 07:59:43 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Allen Dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: FW: The USA is in bad need of new genetics from abroad MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I was referring to a non-migratory system, but I see no reason that a bee > strain could not be developed that could cope with migratory conditions, > better than a locally adapted strain, You are correct, and what you speculate is reality. There are bees who are bred to withstand constant moving and varying environments, crowded yards, etc. To some extent this result has come about naturally by intentionally breeding from the best survivors of such treatment, and to some extent other deliberate selection. > ... I suspect that its characters would not be particularly of economic > benefit As for how they perform, my understanding is that they are at least average at least in non-migratory situations, and their performance in migratory conditions is (of course) better by far than bees which cannot survive such usage. > as they may be smaller colonies and not so industrious. Actually, that is not my understanding. Bees for pollination have to be strong early. Where is Bob? We have been touching on topics he works with daily. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/ --- A billion hours ago, human life appeared on earth. A billion minutes ago, Christianity emerged. A billion Coca-Colas ago was yesterday morning. -- 1996 Coca-Cola Company annual report **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 10:10:08 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Apis mellifica OR Apis mellifera? - 'Do Bees Really Make Honey?' Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Apis mellifica (honey maker)? OR: Apis mellifera (honey bearer)? Do Bees Really Make Honey? Benton 1904: "For my own part I prefer the specific name mellifica, believing, as I do, that bees do really make honey;" "….The carrying or bearing is but incidental to the process of making the honey and securing it for their stores." After receiving several inquiries concerning the mellifera / mellifica conundrum that I submitted in Octobers ‘highly obscure bee trivia’ thread, I have decided to create a folder in the Historical Honeybee Articles list dedicated to compiling articles and bibliography related to this fascinating subject. I am currently seeking out of copyright material pertaining to this topic. Please send to my private inbox, or better yet, post them here to share with ALL, on this appropriately titled thread. Please find below, a beekeeping classic, beautifully written by the great Benton, which he explains in a most eloquent way, Apis mellifera Linn, and why such named. Source: Gleanings in Bee Culture, 1904 - Page 232 ====Article Start==== SCIENTIFIC NAMES. Rules Governing their Use and Application; Apis Mellifera Linn, the Correct Term. By Prof. Frank Benton. In Gleanings, Vol. XXXII., No. 1, for Jan. 1, 1904, the question is raised, on page 11, whether Apis mellifica or Apis mellifera is the proper term to use as the scientific name of the honey-bee. The editorial comment is as follows: Apis mellifica is the term used by Cowan and Cheshire referring to the honey-bee, and by Prof. Comstock, of Cornell, in a recent work on entomology. The same term is also recognized by the great Century Dictionary, the International, and the Standard. The only authority that I have run across so far that uses Apis mellifera in a late work is Prof. Cook. I can not now find Benton's work: but my impression is he uses Apis mellifica. Either is right, but the first is more common. As my own book (Bulletin No. 1, n. s., Division of Entomology, "The Honey Bee,") was the first work on apiculture, so far as I am aware, to use the term Apis mellifera, I may be allowed to explain the matter. Regular rules adopted by the international zoological and botanical societies govern the giving of scientific names of animals and plants, and the retention of such names. These rules relating to the names of animals (including, of course, insects) are known as the "Canons of Zoological Nomenclature;" and all recognized authorities in zoology conform in the main to these rules, although in some of the minor points there are differences of interpretation of the rules themselves or of their application. Those of the rules which pertain especially to the case in hand read as follows: XII. The law of priority begins to be operative at the beginning of zoological nomenclature. XIII. Zoological nomenclature begins at 1758, the date of the tenth edition of Systema Naturae ot Linnaeus. XIV. The adoption of a "statute of limitation" in modification of the lex prioritatis is impracticable and inadmissible. XV. The law of priority is to be rigidly enforced in respect to all generic specific, and subspecific names. Whenever a worker in the field of zoological science discovers a form of animal life which differs in some essential particular from all other known forms, and which, therefore, can not be recognized by comparison with any published description as a certain genus or species, he is entitled to give the new group a family name, a generic name, or a specific name, as the case may warrant. His own surname is always attached, then, to the name of the group in question as the original describer of the group and the authority for the name. The first specimen thus described is known as the type specimen. Actual publication (putting in print) of the name with such a technical description of the object as will enable others to recognize and determine exactly the family, genus, and species of a similar specimen, is the only proof which is accepted of the right of the name to remain. It is expected that a student of a given group of plants or animals will familiarize himself with all of the species that have been described in that group, or at least with all that are likely to come within his range. But some specialists, less industrious than others, do not take the time and trouble to look up all of the described species of a group. They simply name and describe whatever seems new to them. Thus the science is encumbered with synonyms which, sooner or later, must give place to the earlier-published names when some careful investigator points out these. (See Rule XV. above.) Now, it happened that the great Swedish naturalist, Linnaeus, described the honeybee in 1761 under the name Apis mellifica, and published this description. All down through the years writers have used this term, although some at different periods endeavored to introduce a change. The name mellifica prevailed, however, in the main, although the modern rules for scientific nomenclature were not formulated (or at least not adopted) till the congress of botanists, held in Paris in 1867; and their more definite form now governing in this country was not adopted until 1886. But in 1896 an indefatigable worker in the field of insect life, Prof. K. W. von Dalla Torre, of Austria, published a catalog of the known Apida, or bee family, this being Vol. X. of his great work, "Catalogus Hymenoptorum." Dr. von Dalla Torre had unearthed in an old volume an earlier description of the honey-bee than that published under the name Apis mellifica by Linnaeus in 1761. Oddly enough, the older name and description were by Linnaeus himself in the tenth edition of his Systema Naturea, 1758. Here the name Apis mellifera was given. Considering the vast field covered by Linnaeus, and the great number of scientific names which he bestowed upon plants and animals in his work of bringing order out of the existing chaos of scientific nomenclature, it would not have been surprising had he, three years later, overlooked the fact that he had already named and described the honey-bee. I do not know, however, that any testimony bearing on this point exists. What seems more likely is that Linnaeus merely desired to change the name because he had come to the conclusion that mellifica, (honey maker) would be more appropriate than mellifera (honey- bearer). No law of zoologists interfered then with such a change. It was merely a question as to whether scientific writers would adopt it or not. But under the present rules of zoological nomenclature which are quoted above, it is plain that the name published in 1761 had to give way for the earlier-published name, mellifera. It is equally plain (Rules XII. and XIII.) that no older synonym, even though a hundred might be found, could now or hereafter replace the name mellifera. As a matter of fact, a dozen or more writers (Aldrovandi, Moufet, Swammerdam, Reaumur, etc.) had used the name mellifera for the honey-bee before 1758; but Rule XIII. bars the name of each and every one of them from standing now as the authority for the specific name mellifera. It is further seen that the change from mellifica to mellifera was not one adopted arbitrarily nor at the whim of any person, but that the present name is one which takes its place as the result of the application of rules now universally recognized — rules which were adopted only after most careful consideration and criticism by the foremost biologists of the world. As such it must and will be generally accepted whenever known. For my own part I prefer the specific name mellifica, believing, as I do, that bees do really make honey; for surely the product when they have finished their work is very different from the raw nectar carried into the hives. The carrying or bearing is but incidental to the process of making the honey and securing it for their stores. However, this is not a matter which is decided by fashion, individual taste, nor precedent as to present usage. The settled rule makes it clear for all, and but one of the two terms can be correct. Cowan and Cheshire, cited by the editor of GLEANINGS, wrote their works on apiculture before Dalla Torre re pointed out the earlier name and description. Prof. Comstock and the authors of the terms in the dictionaries had not happened to notice the change, or else they had not looked into the reasons for it. A comparison of the facts just mentioned, with the laws of nemenclature quoted above, shows that we have no other way than to accept as valid the name Apis mellifera. And actually we find that specialists in hymenoptera, both in this country and in Europe, who have occasion to mention the honey-bee by its scientific name, use the term mellifera and not mellifica. After a careful examination of this subject I adopted the scientific name mellifera in the third edition of my "Manual," which appeared in the early part of 1899, and a brief statement of the reason was given by me in the American Bee Journal for July 20, 1899, page 456, and also in the American Bee keeper for July, 1899, page 128. A year or so later Prof. A. J. Cook, when revising his "Bee-keepers' Guide," for an edition which appeared in 1900 or 1901, wrote to this Department to learn our reasons for the change in the scientific name of the honey bee. The matter was referred to me, and I gave a full explanation with the references to the publications. This information he made, later, the basis of an extended article on the subject, which was published in the American Bee Journal for June 13, 1901, page 372. Prof. Cook also adopted the name mellifera in the next edition of his book. U. S. Dept. of Agriculture, Washington, D. C. Jan. 22, 1904 ====Article End==== Joe Historical Honeybee Articles http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/HistoricalHoneybeeArticles/ **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 08:54:35 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Allen Dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: A method of converting the crystallised honey in frames MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I recommend placing these frames in a super *below* the brood nest of good > colonies, especially at times when little honey is coming in. They do not > want honey below the nest. Normally honey is stored above the nest, away > from the entrance. In most cases they will either move it up, eat it, or > throw it out. Good recommendation. For us below works best in fall, and the honey that is not thrown out mostly winds up in the brood chambers. That is fine if you want to have lots of stores for winter, and do not hope to extract the honey and feed sugar instead, say if that is your philosophy, or if the price of honey is very low which it is not presently. The reason we place the combs above as described and in early honey season was that we want to have the honey liquefied and stored in supers, not taken down. We also did not want the granulation thrown out the door, which it can be if placed below. Also, if you use excluders, and place a super of granulation below the BC, you may wind up with brood in that box -- especially if you do not have supers on or they are full -- which may be undesirable. So as with most beekeeping the decision requires balancing priorities, with consideration for economic factors. (I wonder if we shouldn't try to use subject lines that actually describe the topic. They are easy to change when the topic changes, or if the original subject line says nothing about the matter under discussion? I've changed this one twice.) allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/ --- A doctor can bury his mistakes but an architect can only advise his clients to plant vines. -- Frank Lloyd Wright (1868-1959) **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 16:08:58 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: FW: The USA is in bad need of new genetics from abroad In-Reply-To: <9F163865E9DF4A6E84FC55F29909C741@Aristotle> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Allen > Actually, that is not my understanding. Bees for pollination have to be > strong early. This stands on the same tenet as 'more bees make more honey' when in fact it is more bee journeys that add up to make the crop and do not necessarily come from the largest colonies. I would expect pollination to be a similar situation. Welcome back by the way! Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://melliferabees.net Email: dave.cushman@lineone.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 7.21/2.01 Son of ORAC M/c, Build 5.o1/2.o1 **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 06:28:47 -1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Howard McGinnis Subject: Re: Plugging with Excess Pollen In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>So pollen (bee bread) is a tradeable item. It should do well in health food >>stores too, maybe preserved in honey. It is probably more valuable then >>'excess honey' both to the bees and in the market place. So how would one get the packed pollen out of the comb if one wanted to sell it? Mahalo, Howard In Hawaii **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 07:45:29 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: Why The Wiki Page on CCD is So Lame In-Reply-To: <254A4F22F68547659E5328FBFA49781D@Aristotle> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hi, I in most part agree with Allen. Perhaps a new Wiki page can be created with the title "Colony Collapse Disorder based on Scientific Research". Here is a link to get someone started; http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Colony_Collapse_Disorder_based_on_Scientific_Research&action=edit All one needs to do after creation is do as this other fellow is doing and keep up on maintenance and delete misinformation. God Bless, Keith Malone Chugiak, Alaska klm@gci.net On Nov 16, 2008, at 5:46 AM, Allen Dick wrote: > Perhaps participating in the wiki is a waste of time, but putting > the same amount of effort into authoritative pages would not. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 09:45:25 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Allen Dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: FW: The USA is in bad need of new genetics from abroad MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > This stands on the same tenet as 'more bees make more honey' when in fact > it is more bee journeys that add up to make the crop and do not > necessarily come from the largest colonies. I would expect pollination to > be a similar situation. True, and of course the understanding is usually, "all other things being equal", unless specified. There are exceptions to any rule. In pollination, there are considerations besides performance, because performance can be so hard to measure Appearances are very important, so booming hives command the top price because growers can see that difference. Also splitting after the bloom is a consideration for making up losses, so large populations are desirable. I'll have to write about my experience at Bakersfield the other year. I have some great pictures. > Welcome back by the way! Thanks, Dave. It's good to be back, I think. allen --- People keep asking about my hand hole cutter. I finally wrote about it. Read all about it at http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/articles/cutter_build.htm **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 12:02:47 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Thompson Subject: Re: Caucasian bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Sat, 15 Nov 2008 07:57:25 -0800, Mike Stoops wrote: >So the suggestion here is that migratory people 8K to 12K years ago had developed to the point where they took colonies of bees with them as they There are two distinct events here, seperated by 10K yrs When it is cold you only get scrubby small trees, eg black spruce These are too small to be BEE TREES When it warms, if there is enough rain, then a climax forest develops. Then there are a few BEE TREES and hence bees Man is not involved in this process >... the Primorski area bees arrived there by natural migration. They were >taken there by immigrants from western Russia/Ukraine ... >-- >Murray McGregor If this emigration happened before the trans-siberian RR (1891-1916) this is most impressive. It IS 6K miles How many hives / wagon? How long to travel so far!!! dave **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 12:10:45 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Why The Wiki Page on CCD is So Lame MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Keith You suggested starting a new 'Scientific Research page' on CCD. And who will be the new, self-proclaimed expert for this new page? Another page of misinformation is not an answer. Somehow we need some standards, starting with eliminating the anonymous source. Citations should be mandatory. That doesn't mean one can't cite personal communications - but then it has to name who made the statement. At least with bloggers, we sometimes know the author. Jerry **************You Rock! One month of free movies delivered by mail from blockbuster.com (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1212639737x1200784900/aol?redir=https://www.blockbuster.com/signup/y/reg/p.26978/r.email_footer) **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 08:41:38 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: Why The Wiki Page on CCD is So Lame In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hi, I think it should be done so there is at least some sort of balance on Wiki. At least you scientific research types could contribute to the page and if it is stated on the page that comments need a reference and name then if they do not it gets scratched. It would not hurt to start it and try it out. I am sure the creator of the page could X it out all together if it all goes wrong. It would be nice if balence were presented so the other page can be seen as total BS. Oh well. I tried to present a good solution that can very well be adequate. God Bless, Keith Malone Chugiak, Alaska klm@gci.net On Nov 16, 2008, at 8:10 AM, Jerry Bromenshenk wrote: > Somehow we need some standards, starting with eliminating the > anonymous > source. > Citations should be mandatory. That doesn't mean one can't cite > personal communications - but then it has to name who made the > stateme **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 13:10:37 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Plugging with Excess Pollen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 16/11/2008 17:04:50 GMT Standard Time, howard@NALO-MELI.COM writes: So how would one get the packed pollen out of the comb if one wanted to sell it? Trial and error! Mine always gets eaten before it can be jarred. There is a method described in one of Ron Brown's books but I think my library has been raided by an apprentice as I can't find it. Chris **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 22:22:24 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: Caucasian bees In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed In message , Dave Thompson writes > >There are two distinct events here, seperated by 10K yrs >When it is cold you only get scrubby small trees, eg black spruce >These are too small to be BEE TREES >When it warms, if there is enough rain, then a climax forest >develops. Then there are a few BEE TREES and hence bees >Man is not involved in this process I am sorry but I do not know what point you are trying to make. In all information I have seen the Primorsky (and surrounding regions like Khabarovsk) bees are the result of bee movements in from the western regions of Russia/Soviet Union over the last 50 to 150 years. It is not part of the native range of Apis mellifera. Their isolation, their longest of all groups exposure to varroa, and the lack of medications used made them the object of investigation to see if varroa resistance had arisen. They are not any ancient offshoot or isolated race, merely some European origin bees that have coped there in isolation. In any case, a migration by more primitive means would not have been precluded anyway, as old time journeys of bees to Australia, New Zealand, and California took place in times of less than rapid transport. The point is, however merely academic. The bees under question are a relatively recent placement. Some were transported back the other way too.........and apparently brought a little sesame seed like friend with them into European Russia.....and the rest of that little tale is played out daily in these pages. -- Murray McGregor **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 22:30:12 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: Genetic compatibility effects on caste determination In-Reply-To: <821228.3952.qm@web51609.mail.re2.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed In message <821228.3952.qm@web51609.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, Dee Lusby writes >due to artificial insemination coming on board and the stirring of all >sperm together......which to me is not natural in a way. What is your point? Why erect a false construct here to haul this discussion on to your favoured ground? Who introduced any concept of artificial and non natural? ( I agree with Sue Cobey on the term 'instrumental' anyway as the bee is NOT being inseminated with artificial semen.) FWIW these were naturally reared and naturally mated queens. -- Murray McGregor **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 11:29:45 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Plugging with Excess Pollen In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Allen, but not for long on pollen without honey. Reply: But how can this be? Isn't beebread pollen/honey mixed so it has compliment= s of both for sustainablilty? Where/when in beehive is just pollen eaten? N= ever heard of that.......so correct me if I am wrong!!! LIke humans on junk= food relative to honey and then go on protein diets to get trim again.....= .....is this what beebread could do? or does? =A0 Dee =0A=0A=0A **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 11:33:19 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Plugging with Excess Pollen In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It is probably more valuable then=A0=20 'excess honey'=A0 both to the bees and in the market place. Reply: But Allen says bees cannot live long on it alone which I feel is wrong as i= t is honey/pollen mixture..................and if valuable for trading, the= n how do you see bees living on it, ....like bees do seem to go for pollen = mix first and then honey in that order.......so what is more valuable and s= ustainable to them, even as adults perhaps? Has this really been looked at?= If so where/when? =A0 Dee =0A=0A=0A **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 11:47:38 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Rossander Subject: Re: Why The Wiki Page on CCD is So Lame In-Reply-To: <000301c94713$f7b8e490$0501000a@j> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I usually think very highly of Jim's posts but this one on the wiki page wa= s wrong on several key points.=A0 Others seem to be mirroring the same erro= rs. First, whatever Mr. Yanega says on his own web page is irrelevant.=A0 Neith= er he nor any other editor "owns" any Wikipedia page.=A0 (Wikipedia in fact= has an explicit policy on that matter at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiki= pedia:Own)=A0 No one owns the page or has any greater weight of voice than any other editor.=A0 His self-claimed "expertise" has no bearing= on his edits - nor do his edits to the CCD page appear to be based any sel= f-claimed expertise. That said, some editors do build up a reputation for responsible editing an= d, over time, their voices can be given somewhat greater weight.=A0 But tha= t reputation must be earned on-wiki.=A0 Wikipedia, like much of the interne= t, is pseudonymous - that is, you can claim to be anyone or have any creden= tials and it's effectively impossible to prove or disprove the claim.=A0 An= yone can create an email address with almost any name.=A0 Anyone can open a= webpage and claim any degree.=A0 I don't have time or resources to go to y= our alleged alma mater to double check it.=A0 So the rest of us put up proc= esses and filters so we don't have to try.=A0 Whether you claim to have a P= hD or not, do your arguments make sense?=A0 Are they clearly and logically = presented?=A0 Are they supported by facts?=A0 Are disputed facts attributed= to externally-published and verifiable sources?=A0 If they are over and ov= er again, then and only then I might start to give you the benefit of doubt= . If you slash out several large paragraphs without bothering to create an account or explain your edit, well, that looks a lot like routine anonymous vandalism and will be promptly reverted. Even then, I'll moderate the degree of trust I give you.=A0 Expertise in on= e area does not necessarily imply expertise in other areas, though attentio= n to detail and clear reasoning do generally cross over. But that general problem is true for much more than just Wikipedia.=A0 Peop= le make claims on this list all the time.=A0 Over time, I've learned whose = voices I can trust and whose posts just get a quick scan before deletion.= =A0 That's not why Wikipedia's article on CCD is so clumsy. Wikipedia does have a problem distinguishing between the quality of publish= ed sources.=A0 When The Register publishes some insane, nonsense theory (li= ke "cell phones cause CCD") and it gets picked up by major new channels aro= und the world, that starts to look like a credible citation to many readers= .=A0 (After all, surely that many new agencies couldn't have abdicated thei= r responsibility to fact-check their stories.)=A0 Wikipedia's policy says t= hat those sources are legitimate until proven otherwise through weight of e= vidence as presented in other published sources. The problem with the CCD page on Wikipedia is that no one's publishing the = rebuttals to all those silly, fringe theories.=A0 And frankly, I don't see = them here either.=A0 Just within the past few weeks, we saw a major confusi= on on this list about what constitutes a symptom of CCD.=A0 Everyone keeps = promising that the definitive article on CCD will be published "soon" and m= akes vague hand-waving assertions while avoiding details with the excuse th= at it would jeopardize the researcher's publication.=A0 That may be true bu= t until the article is published and available to the rest of it, it doesn'= t exist.=A0 Any 'advanced release' that you make about it is unsourcable sp= eculation that we must accept (or reject) based solely on the reputation of= the person making the claim.=A0 (Does that problem sound familiar?) So if you want it fixed on-wiki, publish the right answer externally, then = post a link or reference to that definitive publication on the article's Ta= lk page.=A0 You'll be surprised how quickly the page gets rewritten once th= e facts are truly known.=A0 But don't expect that you can parachute in and = say "I know better, trust me" or make vague promises about "articles to be = published soon".=A0=A0=A0=20 Don't expect me to trust 'personal observation' either.=A0 Anyone could mak= e that claim.=A0 Jerry says he has hard evidence about CCD.=A0 I really wan= t to trust him.=A0 Lots of other claim to have seen hard evidence of CCD.= =A0 Frankly, I don't trust most of them - the tendency to over-diagnose to = the crisis du jour is too well documented.=A0 I'm still waiting for a compr= ehensive article published in a respectable journal that tells us what CCD = really is.=A0 From what I can tell, if anyone ever tried to write the artic= le titled "Colony Collapse Disorder based on Scientific Research", the page= would be blank.=A0 If we can't find sources and present them here, how in = the world do you expect Wikipedia to do it better? Mike Rossander =0A=0A=0A **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 00:09:31 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juanse Barros Subject: Ulmo more than Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn15110-fungal-diesel-could-revolutionise-fuel-production.html?feedId=online-news_rss20 "A fungus that can convert plant waste directly into diesel could allow us to generate biofuel without sacrificing food production. The fungus was discovered in leaves of the ulmo tree (*Eucryphia cordifolia*) which grows in Patagonia. It makes the diesel as a vapour, much easier than liquid fuel to extract, purify and store." Ulmo Honey as antibiotic In english = babel fish translation http://babelfish.yahoo.com/translate_url?doit=done&tt=url&intl=1&fr=bf-home&trurl=http%3A%2F%2Fblogs.elmercurio.com%2Fcienciaytecnologia%2F2008%2F11%2F16%2Fla-miel-de-ulmo-se-convierte-e.asp&lp=es_en&btnTrUrl=Translate original spanish http://blogs.elmercurio.com/cienciaytecnologia/2008/11/16/la-miel-de-ulmo-se-convierte-e.asp -- Juanse Barros J. APIZUR S.A. Carrera 695 Gorbea - CHILE +56-45-271693 08-3613310 http://apiaraucania.blogspot.com/ juanseapi@gmail.com **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 15:12:00 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: A method of converting the crystallised honey in frames In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable or if the price of honey is very low which it is not presently. Reply: =A0 are not you aware that Sioux Honey sent letters to members for buying at a = price for best at under a $1 that in my area lowered price .50 for most bee= keepers in area..........Sure makes one wonder how it lowered pricing natio= nwide. Quite opposite of what Sioux used to do many years back. =A0 Dee A. Lusby =0A=0A=0A **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 09:32:00 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Darrell Subject: Re: A most un-academic request In-Reply-To: <31A322653950496BBB7020461B5EC409@oemuser> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 15-Nov-08, at 7:51 PM, Robert Buntine wrote: > Can anyone suggest a method of converting the crystallised honey in > frames into a honey that can extracted. Hi Robert and all Dee suggests a hot room, but if you are doing only one super or a few frames, make a small room. I built one out of styrofoam(SM) big enough to hold one super or a couple of pails. The heat source was a 12W halogen bulb. I used a remote reading thermometer to check the temperature. After several days the temperature rose to 40C(104F) and the honey could be poured from the pails. Trial and error with frames and slow extractor speed(as Dee suggests) will likely be successful. Bob Darrell Caledon Ontario(1 inch of snow on the ground this morning) Canada 44N80W **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 17:09:33 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Allen Dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Beebread MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > but not for long on pollen without honey. > But how can this be? Isn't beebread pollen/honey mixed so it has > compliments of both for sustainablilty? No Beebread is AFAIK, mostly pollen, preserved with some sugars. > Where/when in beehive is just pollen eaten? Young bees eat pollen. Pollen is essential for brood rearing. Adult bees can survive for extended periods without pollen, if not raising brood. I'm not big on the references, but I'll bet that Peter can cite you till the cows come home and your eyes glaze over. > Never heard of that.......so correct me if I am wrong!!! LIke humans on > junk food relative to honey and then go on protein diets to get trim > again..........is this what beebread could do? or does? > I personally hate these comparisons since they are so (sorry) -- > artificial and bogus. Things are what they are and forcing analogies can > obscure the truth. Beebread is preserved pollen. It has an energy component, but is most precious for brood rearing. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com --- A scholar who cherishes the love of comfort is not fit to be deemed a scholar. -- Lao-Tzu (570?-490? B.C.) **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 17:30:19 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Allen Dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: A method of converting the crystallised honey in frames MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > or if the price of honey is very low which it is not presently. > are not you aware that Sioux Honey sent letters to members for buying at a > price for best at under a $1 that in my area lowered price .50 for most > beekeepers in area We live in different worlds. Lately buyers have been phoning, offering $1.50. Of course, that is Canadian dollars. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com --- A professor is one who talks in someone else's sleep. Anonymous **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 17:33:41 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Allen Dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: Why The Wiki Page on CCD is So Lame MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > First, whatever Mr. Yanega says on his own web page is irrelevant. Neither > he nor any other editor "owns" any Wikipedia page. Thanks, Mike for taking the time to spell it out. You are absolutely right. The ball is in our court. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/ --- Where's the beef? -- Wendy's **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 20:04:09 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: Why The Wiki Page on CCD is So Lame Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Someone here wrote: “…Mr. Doug Yanega…” “…unusual and entertaining opinions…” “…he is not at all shy about accusing beekeepers…” “…he has enough time on his hands…” “…he sure needs some help from us…” “…Explain to him that CCD spreads…” “…Doug seems oblivious to the obvious…” “…He is so completely unaware of…” “…This sort of fringe viewpoint…” “…combined with the hubris of claiming armchair expertise…” “…lots of free time on their hands…” “…Doug seems to still be unaware…” “…and he is utterly uninformed…” “…Doug admits to being the party responsible…” As we see much too often on Bee-L, attacks were directed at the person, instead of directed towards the content of what he has written. I would have loved to have seen comments on the content of the material, but it didn’t happen. This is what often sickens me, that this is allowed to occur. Tell me where does character assassination fall in the “scientific method” so often promoted on this list? Is this what Bee-L is about???? Ans why are the pundits here content to sit on the sidelines when they see this? and yet, choose speak up harshly at every minor factual error in someone’s post? ,,,Is their silence in this case promoting good science? I agree with the earlier suggestion that efforts would be better focused towards correcting information. Lets get out of the gutter, and back in the beeyard! Best Wishes, Joe **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 20:27:51 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Why The Wiki Page on CCD is So Lame MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mike makes some good points. However, I think Mike agrees more often than not with what's been said. Since anyone can start and edit a Wiki page- as he says, its pseudonymous. And, he implies that an editor would object to slashing out whole paragraphs. I've never slashed large sections, but Doug didn't even have the symptoms right - and they have been published repeatedly through a variety of forums. First glance, looks right, but he persists in getting one of the main ones wrong - just the opposite of what we see. If he'd ever seen a case of CCD, he'd know better. I haven't bothered to check the Wiki recently to see if he finally realized the mistake, but he has changed it back just as fast as I corrected it. Mike's statement that: 'No one owns the page or has any greater weight of voice than any other editor' is a nice thought, but simply not true. When one editor decides that they know better than anyone else, repeatedly changing any and all edits, than that editor does have a greater voice, sort of like the bully in the school yard. A responsible editor might ask why others disagree, do some fact checking. I haven't spent much time trying to figure out if there is any moderator to which one can send complaints. After all, the whole idea, as Mike points out, is that anyone can edit a Wiki page. That its strength AND its weakness. I'm sorry, but if someone starts or edits a page about a topic that has national relevance, I expect the editor to be knowledgeable and competent, or else let someone else do the editing. Overall, Mike agrees with all of this - he is stating the obvious -- Wiki pages are a form of community communication. I don't disagree, from a philosophical viewpoint, Mike's correct about what and how Wiki s work. But, as a scientist, I would hope that an informed community voice might be heard, not that of an editor who dominates the discourse. Especially when that editor has it so wrong. Finally, Mike commented: Jerry says he has hard evidence about CCD. I'm not sure what Mike is saying. I have a LOT of data about CCD, have seen as many cases as anyone in the U.S. (I'm reasonably sure of this). So, if that's what Mike means, I'd agree. However, I don't pretend to know the cause of CCD - if that's what Mike is implying when he talks about hard evidence about CCD. We've some leads that look promising. I'm reasonably sure that CCD is contagious. I doubt that it is caused by pesticides, although pesticides may contribute as yet another stressor. And, I believe that some beekeepers continue to have problems with pesticides - those problems have never gone away. Jerry **************You Rock! One month of free movies delivered by mail from blockbuster.com (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1212639737x1200784900/aol?redir=https://www.blockbuster.com/signup/y/reg/p.26978/r.email_footer) **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 20:31:32 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_L_Borst?= Subject: Re: Why The Wiki Page on CCD is So Lame Comments: To: mike_rossander@YAHOO.COM Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Mike Rossander wrote: If we can't find sources and present them here, how in the world do you expect Wikipedia to do it better? MAAREC http://maarec.cas.psu.edu/ CCD http://maarec.cas.psu.edu/ColonyCollapseDisorder.html Apiculture News http://entomology.ucdavis.edu/faculty/mussen/news.cfm Bee Briefs http://entomology.ucdavis.edu/faculty/Mussen/beebriefs/index.cfm **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 20:59:01 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter L Borst Subject: Beebread MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Allen: > I'm not big on the references, but I'll bet that Peter can cite you till the cows come home and your eyes glaze over. EXAMPLE: The food of adult worker bees consists of pollen and nectar or honey. The nutritive value of pollen from different plants varies considerably. After emerging, some worker bees begin consuming pollen during the first 1 to 2 hours of their presence in the colony. At 12 hours after emergence, 50 per cent or more of the workers have started eating pollen in small amounts. However, mass consumption begins when bees are 42 to 52 hours old and reaches a maximum when they are five days old. When bees are 8 to 10 days old, their pollen consumption diminishes. When freshly emerged bees are kept on a pure carbohydrate diet, the N content of their bodies diminishes and mortality greatly increases. However, when, even after 30 days on a pure sugar diet, protein-starved bees are offered pollen normal development is re-established and the young bees reared by them are normal. When the diet consumed by emerged bees is inadequate, weight and N content increases very slightly. If these bees, even after 60 days on such a ration, receive a proper diet, their growth becomes normal. This phenomenon is of great importance. It indicates the tremendous ability of a colony of bees to adjust itself. A colony consisting of bees 47 days old kept on pure sugar diet for 189 days, maintained normal flying activity; but the bees lost 33 per cent of body weight and 22 per cent of N, the greatest N loss (44.7 per cent) occurring in the abdomen. Apparently, older bees need only a supply of carbohydrate for energy, deriving all the necessary materials for repair of vital organs by catabolizing the body stores deposited during earlier periods of growth. HONEY BEE NUTRITION BY MYKOLAH . HAYDAK Annu. Rev. Entomol. 1970 **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 02:24:21 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "deknow@netzero.net" Subject: Re: Beebread Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit -- Allen Dick wrote: >No Beebread is AFAIK, mostly pollen, preserved with some sugars. this is true on the surface. this would be akin to saying that bread is mostly flour and water...true as far as it goes, but if you've ever eaten matzot, you know that microbes (yeast, in the case of bread) is at least as important if what you want is what you think of as "bread". the microbial activity on the pollen/honey mixture is essential for making what we call "beebread". it isn't simple (ie, lactic acid bacteria are important, but LAB alone will not make an attractive or nourishing beebread). in any case, my wife, ramona, will be speaking on this topic specifically (with great detail) at the nebraska state beekeeping conference this coming weekend. we will post a video of the talk online, and likely write up a short paper of sorts after the fact. this is, i think, the most understudied, interesting, and complex aspect of what goes on in the beehive....one that many are not aware of. deknow **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 19:34:14 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Allen Dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: Why The Wiki Page on CCD is So Lame MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > CCD > http://maarec.cas.psu.edu/ColonyCollapseDisorder.html OK. Of that list, there is one page that is a list of articles and a link to http://maarec.cas.psu.edu/ColonyCollapseDisorderInfo.html which is more comprehensive. The rest are indirect, and that page has only a very brief executive summary. Is everyone agreed on the quality of that information? Does it represent the best and latest on the question? If so, should these not be the most prominent links on Wikipedia? allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com --- An eye for an eye only leads to more blindness. Margaret Atwood **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 03:41:52 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juanse Barros Subject: Re: A method of converting the crystallised honey in frames In-Reply-To: <9BD702764BFF456484F879BD1F8D25DD@Aristotle> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline ... Lately buyers have been phoning, offering $1.50. Of course, that is Canadian dollars. ... And that is per pound? -- Juanse Barros J. APIZUR S.A. Carrera 695 Gorbea - CHILE +56-45-271693 08-3613310 http://apiaraucania.blogspot.com/ juanseapi@gmail.com **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 22:08:58 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_de_Bruyn_Kops?= Subject: Re: A method of converting the crystallised honey in frames Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bob Darrell proposed an insulated box heated by a 12W bulb and he monitors temp with a remote-reading thermometer. When you do this you will likely notice that the temperature climbs steadily, then holds for a while (perhaps hours), then resumes climbing. The place the temp holds steady is the melting point. When the temp climbs beyond the melting point, the combs will be done (but pails will need more time for the heat and melting to penetrate to the center). Any uncapped honey in the combs might end up very dry and difficult to extract. A fan is sometimes used inside these hotbox designs to mix the air. I am a bit leery of having a hot light bulb in a place where wax or honey could fall on it. Alden Marshall described a design to me that places the light bulb above the stuff to be heated and uses a fan and tube to get the hot air blown to the bottom of the box. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 22:23:31 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Thompson Subject: Re: Caucasian bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >I am sorry but I do not know what point you are trying to make You perhaps missed the first post Over 100y ago settlers from Ukraine went to Southern siberia with their bees Those bees were not really "native" to Ukraine since 10K years ago and for ~80Kyr previous there were no bees in Ukraine, only glaciers and tundra The question is: where did those migrants (to ukraine), 9Kyr ago come from? Slovenia or Macedonia? On a practical level russians DON'T seem similar to carniolan dave **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 11:56:19 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: Caucasian bees In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed In message , Dave Thompson writes >Those bees were not really "native" to Ukraine >since 10K years ago and for ~80Kyr previous >there were no bees in Ukraine, only glaciers >and tundra There were no bees in Britain either if you go far enough back and its plenty long enough for a sub group off A.m.m. to have arrived and differentiated itself. I very much doubt that a map of native bee types 10K years ago, in the temperate and sub arctic transition zones at least, would look very much like one you would see today. Not least of all because it would be of lesser northerly extent. >The question is: where did those migrants (to ukraine), >9Kyr ago come from? Slovenia or Macedonia? From having trialled both I am sure Carnica and macedonica are very similar bees, also cecropia for that matter. Probably at the time range you talk about they may have had a common root. Who knows? It is plenty of time for a natural migration of bees (into Ukraine) to have happened and for significant differentiation to have taken place. > >On a practical level russians DON'T seem >similar to carniolan Depends just what carnica you are talking about. Slovenian carnica I have had differ from German and Polish supplied carnica, and radically from NWC. Huge variations in stock within races abound. Probably the best description I have heard, and there are conflicting statements made about them (but based on what authority is unclear), is that they are 'carnica type' bees rather than any assertion being made that they are just the same as bees from their original range(s). What seems sure is that they are not 'Russian' bees in the narrow sense applied in their homeland, as those are local ecotypes of A.m.m.. I have a correspondent who uses a strain referred to (by him) as 'Mid Russian' which in his own words are 'very black and very nasty'. -- Murray McGregor **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 21:06:25 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Beebread In-Reply-To: <20081116.212421.7602.0@webmail12.dca.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Allen, By the way the Nebraska Beekeepers Assoc Conference on Chemical Free Beekee= ping includes this topic on BEEBREAD and it's GREAT IMPORTANCE as new cutti= ng edge research is now showing along with honey, and I am so glad you help= ed bring this topic up for it is so needed for more understanding today, wi= ll be Nov 21 thru 23 at Southeast Community College, 301 S. 68th Street Pla= ce, Lincoln, Nebr and cost is $95 but don't worry about the 14 Nov signup d= eadline now........for beekeepers can still get in............on Nov 21 sig= ning up and paying, unfortunately, the food part will not be provided for l= ate comers, and they will have to bring bag meals with them or eat out at f= ast food places nearby.... =A0 Speakers include Michael Bush, Corwin Bell, Dean Stiglitz & Ramona, Michael= Palmer and me.=20 =A0 For more information for last minute signing in contact Nancy Holman, 402-4= 37-2712 or nholman@southeast.edu =0A=0A=0A **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 21:22:03 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Caucasian bees In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On a practical level russians DON'T seem similar to carniolan Reply: Geeh, I always thought that these bees were caucasian types and so written = in early archives with caucasian type similiarities, how did they get switc= hed over to carnolian types for being? =A0 Dee A. Lusby =0A=0A=0A **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 21:27:50 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Plugging with Excess Pollen In-Reply-To: <20081116162851.5AD2A851366@ip-208-109-232-36.ip.secureserver.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable So how would one get the packed pollen out of the comb if one wanted to sel= l it? Reply: Heat, humidity/little moisture to make it soft and then extractor to spin i= t out with those capping spinning bags around the frames to ketch the polle= n. =A0 =A0=0A=0A=0A **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 23:49:55 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Allen Dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: Beebread MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > this is true on the surface. this would be akin to saying that bread is > mostly flour and water...true as far as it goes, but if you've ever eaten > matzot, you know that microbes (yeast, in the case of bread) is at least > as important if what you want is what you think of as "bread". Good point, but I suppose from the practical point of Dee's question, we should ask: Practically speaking, 1.) how does pollen preserved in the comb compare to fresh pollen and 2.) how does that change from the time it is first placed in the comb as pellets to the time it is covered with honey and stored for months or years? (By extension, then, and a bit off topic but of great interest to me would be how fresh pollen and stored pollen (beebread) each compares to supplements. Is the processed pollen superior, the same. inferior, or somehow different in effect? Is there some lesson there for makers of feeds, like the suggestion that acid or microbes are helpful in themselves?) I look forward to seeing the material mentioned, and welcome any other comments. allen http://www.honeybeeword.com/ --- Anyone can do any amount of work provided it isn't the work he's supposed to be doing at the moment. -- Robert Benchley **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 23:54:20 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Allen Dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Honey Prices MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > ... Lately buyers have been phoning, offering $1.50. Of course, that is > > Canadian dollars. ... > And that is per pound? Yes. Good point. Internationally, prices are often per kilo or per tonne. What prices are you hearing? allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/ --- Executive ability is deciding quickly and getting someone else to do the work. -- John G. Pollard **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 06:56:37 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: A method of converting the crystallised honey in frames MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 17/11/2008 04:36:30 GMT Standard Time, bee-l@DEBRUYNKOPS.COM writes: I am a bit leery of having a hot light bulb in a place where wax or honey could fall on it. I recently (last week) used this method to warm a stack of supers before extraction. A cork tile was placed above the bulb to prevent a hot spot, to avoid honey dripping on the bulb and to spread the heat more evenly throughout the stack. Supers were rotated vertically in the stack (ie moved up or down) over a couple of days. Temperature was monitored with the business end of a remote sensing thermometer shoved into a cell in what was assumed to be the warmest part. In fact the temperature was fairly evenly distributed in the stack. Chris **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 07:24:41 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_L_Borst?= Subject: Re: Why The Wiki Page on CCD is So Lame Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >OK. Of that list, there is one page that is a list of articles and a link >to http://maarec.cas.psu.edu/ColonyCollapseDisorderInfo.html which is more >comprehensive. > >The rest are indirect Greetings, If anyone reading this is new to CCD, it is a very complex issue and defies simple explanation. Meaning, it is no different from other complex issues such as global warming, over-population, war, famine, etc. The closer you get to the truth the more unclear and more complicated it becomes. The closer you get to a one-page summary with instant remedies, the closer you get to hot air. If you want the long answer you will have to do your own digging, reading, and thinking. If you want a short answer, there are plenty of those; but beware of summaries that leave too much out. Peter Borst **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 08:52:01 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_L_Borst?= Subject: Re: Beebread Comments: To: Dee Lusby Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Sun, 16 Nov 2008 21:06:25 -0800, Dee Lusby wrote: >Allen, >By the way the Nebraska Beekeepers Assoc Conference on Chemical Free Beekeeping includes this topic on BEEBREAD and it's GREAT IMPORTANCE as new cutting edge research is now showing along with honey What cutting edge research? Any clues? pb **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 18:46:21 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.net" Subject: Re: Caucasian bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>If this emigration happened before the trans-siberian RR (1891-1916) this is most impressive. "Enemies of the czars" were regularly sent to Siberia since the 1700's by a wagon called kibitka. A local population was established to manage the labor camps and explore the Siberian resources. Siberia was Russia's Wild West where one could find relative freedom (if not the czar's enemy!) and fortunes could be made. >>It IS 6K miles How many hives / wagon? How long to travel so far!!! My grandparents along with my mother who was 5 years old at the time were considered "enemies of the Soviet Union" in Soviet-occupied Poland. The whole family, along with others, was shipped to the coldest spot on Earth by the Ob River in early 1940 by cattle train. It took some 7 days of train travel to get there. There were no bees by the Ob River in Siberia. Primorsky region does have a milder climate. Waldemar **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 09:34:42 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Why The Wiki Page on CCD is So Lame MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mike said: >> this [post] on the wiki page was wrong on several key points. A closer look at the rules that regulate Wikipedia, will lead one to agree with the assessments offered by Jerry and I. A review of the processes that control "Wikis" allows one to realize how the Wikipedia system is openly HOSTILE to expertise and experience. It is frustrating to admit it, but while Wikipedia is very good system when the subject is "popular culture" (for example, the TV shows "Star Trek" or "Battlestar Gallactica"), it is utterly lame when it comes to Science with a capital "S", or any subject where skill, talent, education, and/or experience are required. I hope we don't need to start a competing Wikipedia page. I hope that we can simply start e-mailing Mr. Yanga and convince him to do a better job by sending him snippets that we can cite, such as presentations we have attended, things that have been published in the beekeeping magazines, things published in legitimate science journals, and so on. Perhaps I am being naive yet again, but I think that we can change Yanga's mind. If he remains stubborn, we can have him removed as "editor" of the page given that he openly stated that he has his own rather extreme-fringe opinions on the root cause of CCD, and has expressed open contempt for submissions that might contradict his preconceived view. Read the "Straight Dope" web page I cited and see. Yanga still doubts that pathogens are behind CCD. In fact, Yanga blames the victims in regard to CCD, showing just how out-of-touch he is. So, he has the choice to become educated, or be removed as "editor". At this point in the game, one must be willfully ignorant to offer non-pathogenic scenarios as causes for CCD. Jerry said: > I thought that the misinformation was coming from an > overly enthusiastic citizen, maybe a beekeeper or a > student with too much time on their hands. At least > then, one might excuse the lack of citations, fact > checking. If we want to fix such things, and correct the misinformation, we have to understand how the "rules" make it possible for a amateur like Yanega, uninvolved with the subject except for what he might read in the newspapers or on the internets, to remove something added by Jerry B, who has vast expertise in the subject matter, even if Jerry declines the title "expert". Let me quote from one of the more mild critiques of Wikipedia. I consider it "required reading", given how many people trust Wikipedia pages as if they were fact. http://wikicensored.info/ "Wikipedia is not only amateur-friendly, but expert-unfriendly. They pretend not to be, and give lip service to the importance of expert editors. But when you put the rules together, you realize that people who are actually authorities on a subject are forced to argue with one hand tied behind their backs. For instance, there's an "original research" rule: original research, i.e. facts you've dug up or deduced yourself but that are not verifiable in the scholarly literature, are not allowed. Well, I can see that. You don't want every unpublished crank using Wikipedia to propagate his crackpot views. ....but there's another rule called 'Conflict of Interest', which disallows quoting yourself for the purpose of bringing public attention to your writings. Which means that any other person on the planet can write something in Wikipedia and quote me as an authority, but if I do it myself, that's suspect. I have done it myself, and the citations stand if no one objects, but if a crank wants to contradict me, all he has to do is yell 'Conflict of interest!', and delete whatever he wants. After all, who knows what scruffy, fly-by-night vanity presses my books might be issued by Cambridge University Press, Schirmer Books, University of California Press? If the 'ranking' users - those that are more equal than the others - do not attain this position based on their expertise, what, then, is their 'rank' based on? It is based on their devotion to Wikipedia-itself-as-social-dogma, on the amount of time they spend dutifully performing tedious maintenance chores, on their bureaucratic zealotry and their political aspirations. In other words, in Wikipedia, ultimate decisions about what constitutes 'encyclopedic fact' and what constitutes 'vandalism' devolve to a cadre of Internet bureaucrats with no other qualifications than their devotion to Wikipedianism." [End of Quotes from Critique] Let's take one small example of the end result of the impact of these rules. In the Wiki page on CCD, Citation 57 is offered in support of the well-known to be false claim of "No Organic Bee Losses". It is an item "published" a paranoid conspiracy-theory website named "Information Liberation", while the very specific refutation of that claim by Dr. May Berenbaum, who chaired the National Academies of Science report on pollinators, quoted in the journal "Science" is not even mentioned. http://tinyurl.com/5tqqxl or http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/316/5827/970?rss=1%5D%5B%5BNEWS Science 18 May 2007: Vol. 316. no. 5827, pp. 970 - 972 "ENTOMOLOGY: The Case of the Empty Hives" By Erik Stokstad The quote of interest is "'Pesticides can't be an explanation for why organic beekeepers are losing their colonies', Berenbaum says." So are we to believe that no one read that article? That no one considered that article worth citing? That an article in "Science" is not considered as credible as something from a website that also claims that 9/11 was an "inside job"? More likely no one bothered to apply appropriate corrections to the Wiki page in light of the more up-to-date statement on the specific issue of "organic beekeepers" and CCD. Of course, no one reading the Wiki page on CCD notices just what a collection of wack-jobs are "published" by that "Information Liberation" website, as they don't look at the homepage of the website to see what else is covered by that website: http://www.informationliberation.com/?categories Mike said: > The problem with the CCD page on Wikipedia is that no one's > publishing the rebuttals to all those silly, fringe theories. Sorry, I just gave an example above of how what HAS been published is being ignored, yet the fringe theory remains presented as if it were fact. There's simply no excuse for missing something published in "Science" or "Nature", now is there? Further, if one adds in the beekeeping-specific periodicals, there can be no doubt that CCD is the result of one or more pathogens. (One assumes that if newspapers are valid citations of "fact", industry trade magazines are also valid.) But "published" does not seem to be the gating criteria for being cited in a Wiki page. Web pages are cited (as I pointed out above), presentations are cited, and newspaper articles are cited. There have been numerous rebuttals to the silly and fringe theories, but the refutations have been ignored by an editor who is indifferent, unresponsive, and not interested enough in he subject to read an article in the journal "Science". But the basic problem seems to be that Yanga, the person editing that Wiki page, has gone on record as having a vested interest, some sort of personal axe to grind. He has a pet theory, and this is the worst sort of "Conflict Of Interest". He seems to be suppressing submissions that might refute his own views, given Jerry's experience. He is ignoring reports that should change his view. He even refuses to admit (on the "straight dope" website I cited) that CCD has continued to kill hives! So, Yanga is a crackpot. There is no polite way to say it. He confesses to his crank theory thusly: "...what's happened is pretty much what I expected would happen: the CCD threat got blown out of proportion; lots of people came up with wild conjectures to explain it, none of which panned out; the dramatic phenomenon didn't repeat itself; and now people only dimly recall what all the fuss was about." No wonder the Wiki page on CCD is the silliest thing since my false advertising suit against the producers and director of the movie "The Never-Ending Story"! **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 10:06:02 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Honey Prices MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Allen said buyers have been offering to buy at CAN$1.50. Question, what grade honey? Around here (upstate NY) barrel sales of white honey (Alfalfa and Sweet Clover) have been going for $US 1.50, FOB seller. Some sellers are trying to get that (or $1.45) for ELA, or 'Fall Honey', but I am not aware of sales at that price. Six weeks ago there was a ready supply of ELA, which I have reason to think was blueberry, for $1.30. I assume prices for buckets are higher, but have no personal knowledge. Dutch Gold is buying large quantities (I know of over 100 barrels) excellent quality buckwheat for $1.50, but has been reported as 'not buying' ELA or Sweet Clover. Lloyd **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 10:12:39 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter L Borst Subject: Beebread: bee pathogen reservoir MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Pollen stored in comb cells of the hive has been reported as a bee pathogen reservoir. Viable spores of Ascosphaera apis (chalk brood) have been shown to survive in ''bee bread'' for at least 12 months. Gilliam et al. have shown that the pollen stored in comb cells of the hive differs biochemically from the corbicular pollen. Nosema spores' viability for months in bee bread could be an important epidemiological factor in the transmission of pathogens to the next bee generation. Nosema spores in pollen can be a source of nosemosis for the colony. -- "Detection of infective Nosema ceranae (Microsporidia) spores in corbicular pollen of forager honeybees" Mariano Higes, et al **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 10:35:29 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Beebread In-Reply-To: <200811170143.mAH1h8FY029712@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I haven't searched my references, but I'm sure Dewey Caron has written articles on how to preserve trapped pollen in a manner that mimics how honey bees prepare pollen for storage, or to stretch my recollection even further, Grampa Caron's country recipe for beebread. I think the reference Dewey cited in his paper was _Fat_Bees_Skinny_Bees_ which is avaibable online @ http://www.rirdc.gov.au/reports/HBE/05-054.pdf I hope my memory serves me correctly and I'm not sending everyone on a wild goose chase. Ok, I checked. Memory's still good! It's on/around page 30. Aaron Morris - Thinking a mind is a terrible thing to lose! **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 15:22:22 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "deknow@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Beebread Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit -- Peter L Borst wrote: >What cutting edge research? Any clues? well, there is new research out of sweden by Drs. Tobias Olofsson and Alejandra Vasquez. they have published some interesting results. one thing that has been discussed, but yet to be published is from: http://www.prohoneyandhealth.com/UserFiles/image/Report%20to%20the%20Officers,%20Board%20of%20Directors%20and%20Mem----new--2.pdf "One notable comment from their presentation was in regard to the care and feeding of bees themselves. Lactobacilli, bacteria that deliver protective and beneficial benefits to both humans and bees, were not found in bee’s honey stomach during the winter months when the bees under investigation were fed sucrose, indicating that certain bee-feeding practices may have dangerous and unwanted affects on bees." in addition, there is lots of research that is older, but not often cited. i won't steal ramona's thunder by posting everything at the moment...but more is forthcoming. deknow **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 09:07:00 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Allen Dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Feeding Sucrose in Winter MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > "One notable comment from their presentation was in regard to the care and > feeding of bees themselves. Lactobacilli, bacteria that deliver protective > and beneficial benefits to both humans and bees, were not found in bee's > honey stomach during the winter months when the bees under investigation > were fed sucrose, indicating that certain bee-feeding practices may have > dangerous and unwanted affects on bees." I notice the symposium is held by a honey _promotional_ group and that details of the procedures leading up to those conclusions are not mentioned -- that I can see, at least. To me the source is questionable, at best, for several reasons and much more information must be obtained and considered before the idea is given any credence. To point out just one obvious flag: There is no mention of when the sucrose was fed and whether other feed was available as well. It is well-known by beekeepers and researchers that feeding only sucrose syrup _during_ winter, or on the absence of other normal hive stores is not good practice. When fed correctly, sucrose makes superior winter stores, but should not be fed on an ongoing basis from a feeder during winter, except in an emergency, when the best result to expect from such feeding is mere survival. Ideally, syrup is fed in fall in plenty of time for the bees to invert and store it, preferably over some pollen, and perhaps cap it. When it is fed correctly, sucrose provides as good or better wintering and spring performance than many honies. There are many pitfalls for the inexperienced and unwary, and one is the believing of one or two line summaries of 'research' conducted to prove an agenda. Not to say that this is the case here, but that report does seem to walk a lot like a duck. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/ --- Of course, it is very important to be sober when you take an exam. Many worthwhile careers in the street-cleansing, fruit-picking and subway-guitar-playing industries have been founded on a lack of understanding of this simple fact. -- Terry Pratchett , Moving Pictures **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 15:57:05 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "deknow@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Beebread: bee pathogen reservoir Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit hi peter, one must look at the bigger picture here. there are several types of bacillus that inhibit the growth of chalkbrood that are also found in the hive. there are several studies that discuss this. in the end, it is not the presence or absence of 1 particular microbial pathogen that will affect the health of the colony...but the overall balance of the over 8000 microbes (the vast majority being non-pathogenic under any circumstances) that keeps infections in check. antibiotic use (ie, the prophylactic use of terramycen) will not negatively impact the chalkbrood infection, but it will negatively impact the bacteria that do keep the chalkbrood in check...with predictable results. again, this is well studied, and i don't expect you will have any trouble finding references to these studies. the bottom line (seems to us) to be that the interrelationships between the microbes in the hive is too complex to be able to manipulate for long term positive impact for the bees. deknow **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 16:02:47 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "deknow@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Beebread Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit -- Aaron Morris wrote: > Memory's still good! It's on/around page 30. hi aaron, yes, i've seen this...but based on our research, it seems an overly simplistic method. in nature, beebread is fermented by a number of microbes...with several LAB being important, but not sufficient on their own. i expect that this beebread-like-substance is useful, but probably is to real beebread as baby formula is to mothers milk. deknow **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 16:12:19 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: A method of converting the crystallised honey in frames MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > In a message dated 17/11/2008 04:36:30 GMT Standard Time, > bee-l@DEBRUYNKOPS.COM writes: > > I am a bit leery of having a hot light bulb in a place where wax or honey > could fall on it. The problem with light bulbs is that they get too hot and the heat is concentrated in one spot; they also burn out quickly when used as heaters. I converted an old chest freezer to a warming cabinet by putting in a slatted rack (made of 2"x1") raised a few inches off the floor. Underneath the rack I have two 3' tubular heaters (135 watts each). These heaters give a very gentle, evenly distributed heat and were quite inexpensive. Temperature is controlled to within half a degree by a control unit. Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers at stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 11:44:35 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter L Borst Subject: Re: Beebread MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit deknow@netzero.com wrote: >antibiotic use will negatively impact the bacteria that do keep the chalkbrood in check...with predictable results. >again, this is well studied, and i don't expect you will have any trouble finding references to these studies. comment: I wonder why you don't tell us where you got this tidbit, instead of making me do all the leg work. I found this on my own: "Detection and Identification of a Novel Lactic Acid Bacterial Flora Within the Honey Stomach of the Honeybee Apis mellifera" Tobias C. Olofsson, Alejandra Vasquez Curr Microbiol (2008) 57:356–363 Pretty interesting. They used one regular hive and one "small hive" (nuc) to conduct their study. Their own conclusion: > What we have discovered can be seen as *perhaps the beginning* of a new line of research < * * * Interesting side note from the same journal: Bacteriocin-producing lactic acid bacteria (LAB) are believed to be associated with many types of fermented food. The present study reports the identification of lactic acid bacterium MS27 producing a bacteriocin isolated from the Tsuda-turnip pickle, which is a Japanese fermented food, and characterization of LAB coexisting with the bacteriocin producers in the Tsuda-turnip pickle "Characterization of Lactic Acid Bacteria Coexisting with a Nisin Z Producer in Tsuda-Turnip Pickle" Yuji Aso, et al **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 10:05:49 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Allen Dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: A method of converting the crystallised honey in frames MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > The problem with light bulbs is that they get too hot and the heat is > concentrated in one spot; they also burn out quickly when used as heaters. Rough service bulbs give less light and more heat and stand up best. > Underneath the rack I have two 3' tubular heaters (135 watts each). Always make sure that there is drainage so that the heaters do not get submerged in case of a meltdown or a spill. This topic was extensively covered in the past. Does anyone search and read the archives anymore? I do, and find it a great resource. Visit http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l&D=1&T=0&H=0&O=D allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/ --- One of the symptoms of an approaching nervous breakdown is the belief that one's work is terribly important. -- Bertrand Russell (1872-1970) **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 10:19:21 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Allen Dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: Beebread: bee pathogen reservoir MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > in the end, it is not the presence or absence of 1 particular microbial > pathogen that will affect the health of the colony...but the overall > balance of the over 8000 microbes (the vast majority being non-pathogenic > under any circumstances) that keeps infections in check. This is a very questionable statement, and the first part is very easily disprovable. The second is one of those things that is so general and vague that it can ever be proven or disproven -- and as such is effectively meaningless. > antibiotic use (ie, the prophylactic use of terramycen) will not > negatively impact the chalkbrood infection, but it will negatively impact > the bacteria that do keep the chalkbrood in check...with predictable > results. again, this is well studied, and i don't expect you will have any > trouble finding references to these studies. I am sure we can find studies that prove down is up, too. Can we find any _credible_ studies? > the bottom line (seems to us) to be that the interrelationships between > the microbes in the hive is too complex to be able to manipulate for long > term positive impact for the bees. If so, then how does such a balance come about? allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com -- Repetition does not transform a lie into a truth. Franklin D. Roosevelt (1882 - 1945), radio address, October 26, 1939 **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 19:04:02 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?Windows-1252?B?QXJpIFNlcHDkbOQ=?= Subject: Re: Beebread MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit During last weekend I was listening the recent studies of Tobias C. Olofsson and Alejandra Vasquez There is going to be many more publications coming soon. Lactic acid bacteria do have a lot of influence in process where nectar in transferred to honey. Also lactic bacteria seem to be working against some bee pathogens, and their amounts change when bees are fed or medicated. Personally I feel that the couple has opened a totally new door to bee science, and we will see a lot of things coming up throught the new finding that inside honeybee lives a more than 10 species of symbiotic lactobacteria. These bacteria are not found in any other place. These bacteria and their products might also be the clue why different honeys vary in their abilities to work against bacteria. Ari Seppälä Finland **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 17:30:29 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "deknow@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Beebread Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit -- Peter L Borst wrote: >I wonder why you don't tell us where you got this tidbit, instead of making me do all the leg work. well, the data to support this is all over the place. in addition, one might consider the source of fumigillin (which is used to treat nosema a. and nosema c). this is, of course, an antibiotic harvested from the fungus that causes stonebrood. more data to support the fact that microbial culture and the bees in the hive work as a complex adaptive system, and that they seem to have co-evolved in a way that supports one another. deknow ps: i once made some very "flavorful" turnip pickles (fermented). my father in law offered me $10 to never have to eat another one! ramona loved them. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 12:32:42 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: A method of converting the crystallised honey in frames MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 In a message dated 17/11/2008 17:17:54 GMT Standard Time, =20 allendick@GMAIL.COM writes: The problem with light bulbs is that they get too hot and the heat is=20 > concentrated in one spot; they also burn out quickly when used as heater= s. Normally for heating honey in the bucket I use an insulated box with a =20 warming cable zig zagged in the base and a thermostatic sensor which tells t= he =20 adjustable dial on the plug when to switch off and on. I bought the electri= c bit=20 many years ago from (I think) a firm called Ecostat which supplies them=20 primarily for incubators. It cost =A350, which I thought rather a lot at th= e time=20 but it has paid for itself many times over.=20 =20 I built the box with the length of the standard top bar (17" in UK) in mind=20= =20 but I don't normally use it for warming combs as, in small numbers, scraping= =20 is simpler. =20 Chris **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 12:49:03 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Peter_L_Borst?= Subject: Re: Beebread Comments: To: Dean Stiglitz Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Mon, 17 Nov 2008 17:30:29 GMT, deknow@netzero.com wrote: > more data to support the fact that microbial culture and the bees in the hive work as a complex adaptive system, and that they seem to have co-evolved in a way that supports one another. This statement is essentially the same as saying that the rain brings the flowers. Right, but what of it? You say that the hive is a complex adaptive system. Me too. You say that adding or subtracting items from it can be harmful. Me too. But what you don't do is support any of your opinions about what should and should not go in there. I would think that the bees would find that sort of guidance to be a little confusing. pb **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 10:55:11 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Allen Dick Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Who Said What? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > In a message dated 17/11/2008 17:17:54 GMT Standard Time, > allendick@GMAIL.COM writes: > > The problem with light bulbs is that they get too hot and the heat is >> concentrated in one spot; they also burn out quickly when used as >> heaters. Actually, I did not say that. Such errors are why I strip the attribution lines that mail readers add to quotes and I _usually_ avoid addressing people by name, and rather prefer to address the ideas. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com --- I have suffered a great deal from writers who have quoted this or that sentence of mine either out of its context or in juxtaposition to some incongruous matter which quite distorted my meaning , or destroyed it altogether. -- Alfred North Whitehead (1861 - 1947) **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 09:42:40 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: Beebread In-Reply-To: <20081117.110247.6633.2@webmail13.dca.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > > Dean said> i expect that this beebread-like-substance is useful, but > probably is to real beebread as baby formula is to mothers milk. This seems like a bit of a stretch to me, Dean, although I've been largely with you up to here. Real bee bread is made from in-flight bee-inoculated pollen, stored in wax cells, and fermented at about 95F. Home-fermented bee bread is made from in-flight bee-inoculated pollen, stored in a plastic bucket, and fermented at about 95F. I would expect there to be some difference, but not to the degree that you claim. I suggest that your use of the word "probably" may be ill-advised unless you can substantiate it with data. Randy Oliver **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 18:13:42 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "deknow@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Beebread Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit at the moment, there are 2 of us preparing for 2 separate talks and sharing 1 computer (in addition, we are both trying to make a living away from the computer). i simply don't have time at the moment to provide everyone with the sources they are looking for. we are not affiliated with a university, and we live in a fairly small "city"....doing this research is time consuming (and, in order to not have to pay $40 or more per paper, we have been relying on the good will of the reference librarian at a university science library 40min away). we are preparing the results of our research (which will be heavily footnoted), but this all takes time...as does going through the big stack of papers to provide citations. please, be patient with us here. we will have copies of most of our source material with us in nebraska if anyone would like to take a look who is going to be there. deknow **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 11:20:13 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: Honey Prices MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Allen said buyers have been offering to buy at CAN$1.50. Question, what > grade honey? The only grade we make around here: white. Interesting that the prices in your area are higher, given the currently weak Canadian dollar. After conversion, that would be $1.87 CAD. allen --- When a thing has been said and well, have no scruple. Take it and copy it. Anatole France (1844 - 1924) **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 19:10:58 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "deknow@netzero.net" Subject: bacillus inhibiting chalkbrood citiations Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit my apologies for not quoting individual sections...i thought that this was well known and well accepted, at least since the work of martha gilliam. here are a few cites: bacillus and chalkbrood: http://www.vita-europe.com/Map_enscript/frmbuilder.php?dateiname=%2Fen%2Fdevelopment%2Fchalkbrood.htm http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/AR/archive/aug98/bees0898.htm http://www.cals.ncsu.edu/entomology/apiculture/PDF%20files/Johnson_et.al.2005.pdf http://www.scielo.org.ar/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S0325-75412004000100011 http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/119173621/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0 http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=216617 **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 14:20:47 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Honey Prices MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Interesting, word is that buyers are offering to buy Canadian white honey at $US 1.23, FOB West Coast of Canada. Sellers in this neighborhood (East Coast) are offering at $US 1.50, but the large buyers are responding 'at this time, we are not buying'. Now, we have very little white honey available as most is Extra Light Amber (ELA). One large seller of ELA is offering at $1.30, the others, AFAIK, are holding out for $1.45-$1.50. My guess is that they are not going to get it. But, hey, I wish them luck. A real problem is that because of Homeland Security regulations it is about impossible to get a 'one time' shipment of Canadian honey into the US. That will stop many potential East Coast buyers from going to Quebec or Ontario to get honey. Lloyd **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 14:40:07 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter L Borst Subject: Re: Beebread MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Randy Oliver: > I suggest that your use of the word "probably" may be ill-advised unless you can substantiate it with data. Claude Bernard (1813 - 1878): > Proof that a given condition always precedes or accompanies a phenomenon does not warrant concluding with certainty that a given condition is the immediate cause of that phenomenon. Theories are only hypotheses, verified by more or less numerous facts. Those verified by the most facts are the best, but even then they are never final, never to be absolutely believed. -- Peter L Borst Danby, NY USA 42.35, -76.50 http://picasaweb.google.com/peterlborst **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 20:09:01 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "deknow@netzero.net" Subject: Re: Beebread Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit -- randy oliver wrote: >Home-fermented bee bread is made from in-flight bee-inoculated pollen, stored in a plastic bucket, and fermented at about 95F. hi randy, please correct me if i'm wrong. my reading of the various "bee bread" recipes i've seen, is that they inoculate the pollen/honey mixture with a specific LAB...much like if one were to brew beer or make wine one would generally add a specific yeast. the purpose of doing this is to crowd out any other microbes present. "cloudy" mead, beer, wine, that is fermented by a combination of several naturally occurring microbes is considered inferior. the bees do in fact inoculate the pollen as they collect it with many molds, yeasts, bacteria, fungi, etc...and not with a relatively large amount of a specific LAB to crowd out these other microbes as we would use to make artificial bee bread. "Fungi (molds and yeasts) and Bacillus spp. were the predominant microbes in pollen and bee bread. Of the total microbial isolates (n=391) from pollen and be bread, 55% of the pollen and 85% of the bee bread isolates were fungi (Gilliam, unpublished). It appeared that honey bees engaged in 'microbial farming' by inoculating pollen with specific microorganisms as they collected and packed it for transport to the colony. Examples of the microbes that were introduced by the bees are the yeast T. magnoliae, bacteria belonging to the genus Bacillus, and the molds Aureobasidium pullulans, P.corylophilum, P. crustosum, and Rhizopus nigricans. Most of the organisms isolated from corbicular pollen and the bee bread were also associated with honey bee colonies particularly in the guts of adult worker honey bees." from, "identification and roles of non-pathogenic microflora associated with honey bees" by martha gilliam in FEMS microbiology letters 155 (1997) 1-10 ...much of this is as you pointed out...but unless artificial beebread is made without specifically inoculating it (as the recipes i've seen indicate), it is going to be quite different from bee produced beebread. in addition, i expect that the fermentation in the cells with constant regulation of air flow and moisture by the bees will produce a different product than that in a bucket (less surface area per pound in a bucket, i would expect). the recipe that aaron cited uses an airtight bucket for fermentation(which is different than fermentation in an open cell, or one covered with honey), and the text preceding it states: "Further addition of sugars and enzymes creates bee bread through lactic acid fermentation." ...when clearly, the research of martha gilliam shows that it is more complex than just LAB fermentation....as 85% of the isolates found in bee bread were molds. deknow **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 23:48:20 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juanse Barros Subject: Re: Honey Prices In-Reply-To: <90D4322BCFCA4F449332E69B2374D309@Aristotle> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Hi Allen Good you come back. Well I got into the Bee-l after you have gone, but I can see the difference with you in ... good you come back with time to spear with the rest of us. Over here at Chile market is a bit extrange. We were having good offer for around U$2.5 per kilo. Then the dollar went up (from 450 to 690 Ch pesos to the dollar) but the price in US$ was kept in the same position. There is a lot of attention paid to our Ulmo Honey, with new buyers in the scene, but not much inquires for other honeys. How ever we are starting out honey season right now with medium to good perspectives. This is going to be a very fast season. All blooms are some 10 to 20 day ahead of `past year and the summer forecast is dry to very dry. Now we are receiving owfull news from Argentina , two of the bigger exporters stopped buying any honey. There are no transactions during november in their stock market http://apitrack.com/noticias/aaacotizacionmiel_es_open.htm and the price there drop from Ar$7.4 to Ar$6.4. Crop perspective there are medium to good this season. I hope buyers do not stop consuming with this world financial crisis. I see a trend in the packers or middle mens pushing prices down with all the rest of the commodities. -- Juanse Barros J. APIZUR S.A. Carrera 695 Gorbea - CHILE +56-45-271693 08-3613310 http://apiaraucania.blogspot.com/ juanseapi@gmail.com **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 17:18:45 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Beebread In-Reply-To: <3dcef4a10811170942n17b6b274o1891e925acf61101@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I suggest that your use of the word "probably" may be ill-advised unless you can substantiate it with data. =A0 Reply: That is what the Nebraska State Assoc Chemical Free Conference is for " To = get the truth out on what is reallying happening in our hives as cutting ed= ge research changes future directions for perhaps how we do things in the w= ay of "could it be!!!........feeding our honeybees?"........ =A0 Now that's Nov 21-23 in LIncoln, Nebraska..........and money will be accept= ed at the door!!! So come, be advised with plenty of substantiated data fro= m Overseas and here, etc. as I am greatly looking forward to this talk, and= others to be give by speakers coming!!!=20 =A0 For honeybees can be kept chemically free, and also did I say without the a= rtificial feeds!!! =A0 Dee A. Lusby =A0 =A0=0A=0A=0A **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 21:26:51 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter L Borst Subject: Chalkbrood vs Terramycin MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline >antibiotic use will negatively impact the bacteria that do keep the chalkbrood in check...with predictable results. >again, this is well studied, and i don't expect you will have any trouble finding references to these studies. >my apologies for not quoting individual sections...i thought that this was well known and well accepted, at least since >the work of martha gilliam. here are a few cites You're joking, right? None of those sources backs up this assertion. In her 1978 work, she concludes that "differences exist in the intestinal microflora of honey bees from caged colonies and from free-flying colonies. Also, feeding 2,4-D or a combination of oxytetracycline and fumagillin to bees causes shifts in the microflora". She does NOT say antibiotics promote chalkbrood, as you assert. In fact, she wrote: "Of special interest is the fact that no Bacillus organisms were isolated from bee guts during the hot summer months of June, July, August, and September." This is when chalkbrood usually clears up on its own. I suggest what this means is that microbes of all sorts tend to diminish during the summer months, when the hive is well populated, properly fed and ventilated. Old timers often assert that nothing is better for a hive than a good honeyflow. All sorts of problems just go away. 1988, ten years later, she writes: > Thus, since the pathogen [chalkbrood] is often present in bee colonies which never show symptoms of the disease, breeding of queen bees from such colonies would seem a logical approach for control. Then, in 1997: > Our efforts to develop control methods for chalkbrood are based on determination of the mechanisms that enable bee colonies to cope with and survive the disease, particularly those colonies that do not show clinical symptoms even when the pathogen is present in high concentration. Genetically determined hygienic behavior (uncapping of cells and removal of diseased and dead larvae) by nurse worker bees was found to be the primary mechanism of resistance or tolerance to chalkbrood. > A secondary mechanism of resistance is the addition during pollen collection and storage by bees of antagonistic molds and Bacillus spp. that inhibit the pathogen. Bee colonies that are resistant or tolerant have more of these antagonists. Antimycotic substances active against A. apis were not produced by bees, larvae, bee bread, or honey. However, bee bread and the guts of worker bees, the major sources of the pathogen, were the primary sources of the antagonistic microorganisms. Thus, the antimycotic substances were produced by microorganisms that originated in worker bee intestines. These microorganisms were added to pollen by the bees. Comment: This points to hygienic behavior as the primary mechanism for controlling disease, and also to the presence of beneficial gut organisms as a component of the phenomenon of hygienic bees. I think you have cherry picked the work to bolster your case, when in reality the message of some thirty years of study is that bees need to be selected and bred for hygienic behavior. Of course, this is what is being done by many whether it is by letting susceptible bees die out, or to look for and enhance particular traits. Better bees simply require less attention. pb **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 21:58:55 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Irwin_Harlton?= Subject: Honey Prices Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lloyd can you please elaborate how Homeland security regulations would prevent one time importation of Canadian honey **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 19:21:10 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Beebread In-Reply-To: <6999718ED3E19D4AA061F73254EEA3410517D86B@UAEXCH.univ.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Aaron: =A0but I'm sure Dewey Caron has written articles on how to preserve trapped= pollen in a manner that mimics how honey bees prepare pollen for storage, =A0 Reply: Perhaps on the surface, but whether or not in actuality is about to be unfo= lded beginning at this Nebraska State Assoc meeting on Chemical Free Beekee= ping....21-23 Nov in Lincoln, Nebraska. =A0 For you see many things have happened now changing the direction/way beekee= ping will have to go in the future for long term survival! =A0 For you can mimic in a way......., in that you put pollen into a hive that = the bees then have to rework: But how? Same for honey! and mimicing honey f= eeding fwiw , .....and both honey/pollen make up beebread......but by the b= ees themselves mixing. And believe it or not there is a BIG difference.....= .=A0between the natural and the artificial doings. =A0 For you cannot look at hive doings in sound bites, or field management for = that matter.....it is whole picture for understanding and so much work to b= e done. Much is unfolding fast, on how we as an industry worldwide have det= rimentally hurt our colonies nutrition wise, concerning our pollens and hon= eys collected, and stored in combs. Add to this=A0hurting, the environment = they live in due to placement/change by us for interaction with Nature, muc= h of which needs to be changed/redirected. =A0 Dee =A0=0A=0A=0A **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 15:14:06 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: Beebread In-Reply-To: <20081117.150901.7916.2@webmail12.dca.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > > my reading of the various "bee bread" recipes i've seen, is that they > inoculate the pollen/honey mixture with a specific LAB...much like if one > were to brew beer Thanks, Dean. I should have been more specific, since I had just finished another correspondence suggesting that that researcher make their bee bread with an inoculum of natural bee bread from a comb. However, Gilliam's research indicates that the inoculum is added by the bees in their corbicula, and that the fermentation process starts before the pollen even gets back to the colony. i've read the research that you cited, thanks. You may wish to look at more recent research by Dr Jay Evans which demonstrates the great differences in microflora from colony to colony, and location to location. That would raise the question as to which inoculum to use. It's likely that more metagenomic and proteomic screening will find a common denominator of microbes for fermentation. Of course, there will be certain discerning beekeepers who will turn their noses up at such generically fermented bee bread, and wax poetic about the terroir of their secret local inoculum. Randy Oliver **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 03:49:03 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "deknow@netzero.net" Subject: Re: Chalkbrood vs Terramycin Comments: To: peterlborst@gmail.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit my apologies peter (and all), i seem to have misstated things wrt the research of terramicyn and chalkbrood. with that said, the bacillus bacteria do seem to have a role in fighting chalkbrood. it's hard to imagine that antibiotics don't have an impact on this. in quoting you (quoting martha gilliam): -- "Peter L Borst" wrote: > "A secondary mechanism of resistance is the addition during pollen collection and storage by bees of antagonistic molds and Bacillus spp. that inhibit the pathogen. Bee colonies that are resistant or tolerant have more of these antagonists. Antimycotic substances active against A. apis were not produced by bees, larvae, bee bread, or honey. However, bee bread and the guts of worker bees, the major sources of the pathogen, were the primary sources of the antagonistic microorganisms. Thus, the antimycotic substances were produced by microorganisms that originated in worker bee intestines. These microorganisms were added to pollen by the bees." ...is this what we generally think of as hygienic behavior? the use of microbes (present in the gut of the worker bees, inoculating the beebread) to fight other pathogens (chalkbrood in this case)? i thought hygienic behavior was about the bees removing debris from the hive? this seems quite different. it is hard to imagine that antibiotics, and/or broadly effective antimicrobials (like organic acids) don't have an effect on this process. the links i provided did discuss bacilli as being antagonistic towards chalkbrood (i think this is what the above quote is referring to, no? and we know that fumidil is produced by the stonebrood fungus). is this a case of not enough research? incomplete research? i don't know....but i find it hard to imagine that such treatments don't have a negative impact on these organisms that have a negative impact on chalkbrood. what are your thoughts? it still seems to me like a complex adaptive system that would be difficult to manipulate via chemical/antimicrobial inputs with predictable (and positive from the beekeepers perspective) results over the long term. it's also worth noting that tobias et al (as referenced before) found bacilli and other bacteria in the honey stomachs of worker bees that would have been hard to isolate previously (and in fact, were never found before, and in fact, were found in areas like the honey stomach that previously weren't thought to host any bacteria)...as the newer dna analysis technology will show bacteria that are not easily (or cannot) be cultured. deknow deknow **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 05:18:12 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juanse Barros Subject: Re: Honey Prices In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline And ... Irwin, could you elaborate on the "one time importation" concept? On Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 3:58 AM, Irwin Harlton wrote: Lloyd can you please elaborate how Homeland security regulations would prevent one time importation of Canadian honey -- Juanse Barros J. APIZUR S.A. Carrera 695 Gorbea - CHILE +56-45-271693 08-3613310 http://apiaraucania.blogspot.com/ juanseapi@gmail.com **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 21:36:04 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: Honey Prices MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Good you come back. Well I got into the Bee-l after you have gone, but I > can > see the difference with you in ... good you come back with time to spear > with the rest of us. Thanks. > Over here at Chile market is a bit extrange... Yes. One has to wonder what happens next. > Now we are receiving owfull news from Argentina , two of the bigger > exporters stopped buying any honey. There are no transactions during > november and the price there drop from Ar$7.4 to Ar$6.4. Yes. I worry about our friend, Martin. Haven't heard for him for a while. He is an exporter and in addition to all the other troubles, Argentina taxes exports. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/articles/oxalic_ drip.htm --- All human actions have one or more of these seven causes: chance, nature, compulsion, habit, reason, passion, and desire -- Aristotle (384 BC - 322 BC) **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 21:41:58 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: Beebread MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > That is what the Nebraska State Assoc Chemical Free Conference is for " To > get the truth out on what is reallying happening in our hives as cutting > edge research changes future directions for perhaps how we do things 'Cutting edge' research has to be replicated, and tested. As for 'Chemical Free', that _has_ to be a con. Nature is full of chemicals. Can't escape them. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com --- I think we ought always to entertain our opinions with some measure of doubt. I shouldn't wish people dogmatically to believe any philosophy, not even mine. -- Bertrand Russell (1872 - 1970) **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 07:39:32 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "deknow@netzero.net" Subject: Re: Chalkbrood vs Terramycin Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit ....here is some evidence to support the theory that terramycin in the hive will negatively affect some of the bacillus that inhibits chalkbrood...leading to an increased infection. not proof, but pretty strong evidence....any thoughts? http://www3.acadlib.lv/greydoc/Jakobsona_disertacija/Jakobsons_ang.doc Boriss Jākobsons Bišu kaļķu peru bioloģiskā apkarošana Biological teratment of chalkbrood in honey bees Promocijas darba KOPSAVILKUMS Dr. med.vet. zinātniskā grāda iegūšanai Jelgava, 2005 "2. Excessive treatment with antibiotics increases susceptibility of bee larvae to A. apis and therefore must be reduced." [OT is oxytetracyclen...or terramycin] "5.3.5.2. Effect of tetracycline treatment on the susceptibility of Apis mellifera to infection by A. apis Mortality was highest in group b) (spores+OT): 25%-36%, followed by group a) (spores alone): 12%-26.7%. Mortality in all control groups was bellow 10%. The detailed results of this experiment are presented in Table 24. Statistical analysis of the results (chi-square) indicate highly significant differences (P<0.0001) between the group given spores alone and the group given spores and OT. Moreover, significant (P<0.0001) differences were found between these two groups and the control groups." "Another factor to be considered is the wide use of acaricides and antibiotics to combat these mites, protozoa and bacterial brood diseases. This results in a significantly higher larval susceptibility towards chalkbrood infestations as shown in the experiments carried out in Thailand" "Treatment of larvae of Apis melifera with oxytetracycline in vitro enhanced their susceptibility to an experimental infection with A. apis. " "6. The Bacillus sp. isolated and used in this research was shown to be susceptible to two of the most widely used antibiotic drugs in apiculture, i.e. streptomycin and tetracycline, strengthening our assumption that higher levels of chalkbrood infestation are related to an altered microbial balance in the hive." "In vivo, the Bacillus sp. was found to be harmless to the bees while significantly reducing the levels of infestation with the fungus to levels low enough to permit the restoration of the natural host-parasite balance. Positive results were obtained both by applying the Bacillus sp. by spray or in the feed (in a 50% sugar solution). The most effective result was obtained by the feeding treatment with Bacillus sp. and the results were confirmed in Israel, Thailand and Germany in repeated trails over a three year period" **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 09:14:00 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Chalkbrood vs Terramycin/ Hygienic Behaviour In-Reply-To: <20081117.224903.3706.0@webmail12.dca.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Dean > i thought hygienic behavior was about the bees removing debris from the hive? What you are describing is 'house cleaning', 'hygienic behaviour' is the detection of dead brood, detection of parasites and other problems and the removal of affected larvae. These behaviours can be present in combination, but are likely to be artefacts of different patrilines in the colony. -- Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://melliferabees.net Email: dave.cushman@lineone.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 7.21/2.01 Son of ORAC M/c, Build 5.o1/2.o1 **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 05:35:06 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: Chalkbrood vs Terramycin MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > ....here is some evidence to support the theory that terramycin in the > hive will negatively affect some of the bacillus that inhibits > chalkbrood...leading to an increased infection. not proof, but pretty > strong evidence....any thoughts? [URL] "2. Excessive treatment with > antibiotics increases susceptibility of bee larvae to A. apis and > therefore must be reduced." Yes. This is pretty interesting and looks, from my quick scan, to be good work. I also note the word, "excessive" is used, not "any" to modify "treatment". >From my cursory examination the conclusions appear to be based on direct applications of bacteria to larvae, and even oral application. I was not clear on how that was accomplished I had limited time for in-depth analysis. I am also not sure that this proves that not using antibiotics will actually reduce chalkbrood in an actual working hive. At any rate, I don't think any of us dispute that there are beneficial and harmful activities by microflora and microfauna going on in any given hive, or that suppressing one or giving another an advantage may upset whatever balance exists, in the short run, at least. All this is interesting and worth knowing, but I wonder how significant the disruption due to medications -- if applied necessarily and judiciously -- actually is in the real world. I recall Andy said that beekeepers he knew applied oxytet regularly because the bees just thrived better, and it was obvious. I realize that perfectionists and extremists may argue that no disruption in any hive is justified, but most of us keep bees for the economic benefit and there is reduced or no benefit from maintaining bees which break down with foulbrood, and that is sometimes the alternative to treatment. I think, also, that most thinking people question whether a.) the natural state of any particular hive is intrinsically optimal b.) it is not possible to improve that state by manipulations, treatments and other means c.) where pathology is obvious or likely, that measures should not be made to remedy or forestall the problem d.) the economic health of the beekeeper trumps other considerations I think it is all a matter of perspective, and commercial migratory beekeepers are going to think and act very differently than stationary and hobbyist beekeepers or those who keep bees for philosophical reasons and make decisions based on theory or hypotheses. All in all, it seems that this is a question of theory and idealism vs. necessity and practice. What is obvious in a lab or research setting may have little or no importance on a commercial setting, or be trumped by larger considerations. Besides, we can deal with chalkbrood very easily. Just get better bees. In summary, my position is that all the above does not negate the importance and interest of the studies cited, but we do have to balance many conflicting forces, and this consideration is just one. And the word is "excessive", after all. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/menus/topics.htm --- Remember that fear always lurks behind perfectionism. Confronting your fears and allowing yourself the right to be human can, paradoxically, make you a far happier and more productive person. -- Dr. David M. Burns **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 07:43:39 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter L Borst Subject: Chalkbrood vs Terramycin MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On Tue, 18 Nov 2008 03:49:03 GMT, deknow@netzero.net wrote: >the links i provided did discuss bacilli as being antagonistic towards chalkbrood (i think this is what the above quote is referring to, no? and we know that fumidil is produced by the stonebrood fungus). You mean the Vita website? They call that research, but it's ad copy. We need to read ad copy with a somewhat critical eye, do we not? > The fact that the Bacillus sp. Isolated and used by us is susceptible to two of the most widely used antibiotic drugs (streptomycin and tetracycline) strengthens the contention that higher levels of chalkbrood infestation are connected to an altered microbial balance. Consequently, restoring this balance (even partially) should contribute to the reduction of A. apis infestation levels. In-vivo experiments in all countries indicate a significant decrease in A. apis infestation following treatment with the Bacillus sp., thus confirming the in-vitro findings and establishing that the biological control of chalkbrood (by the use of Bacillus sp.) was feasible. Sure, it "strengthens their contention" that their product is susceptible to TM; TM is a multispectrum antibiotic. But that doesn't prove that chalkbrood increases due to TM. They go on to say things like "restoring this balance should ..." and "in-vivo experiments indicate ..." and "thus confirming". None of these assertions are even slightly backed up. No data is provided, so it is on their testimony that we are expected to believe in a) some undefined natural balance, b) some undescribed experiments, and c) some earth shaking conclusions, all on the assumption that -- they wouldn't just make this up to sell a product, would they? Saying that "fumagillin comes from stonebrood" is a great oversimplification and shows a degree of unfamiliarity with the whole field of microbiology. Like saying resveratrol comes from red wine, therefore lets pour a tall glass! Oh, I do it all right, but I am not kidding myself into thinking wine is a great health food. And yes, what Gilliam said puts a whole new spin on hygienic behavior if it includes microbe farming, which it apparently does. This is very interesting work, but to draw sweeping conclusions is not science. We are at the beginning of understanding what it really means to *have healthy colonies*, which everyone agrees we don't now generally have. Finally, the concept of "natural balance". I used to *believe* in this before I studied evolution and ecology. But I learned that Nature is no petting zoo; it's the good, the bad and the ugly. Microorganisms include the beneficial, the innocuous and the plagues. By the way, good luck with your presentation. I would suggest that if you don't get hard questions like these that you are preaching to a compliant choir. But it is what you would get from hard-boiled scientists. Don't expect them from a gullible public that simply wants to be told what to buy and where to get it. SHOW ME, don't tell me. -- Peter L Borst Danby, NY USA 42.35, -76.50 http://picasaweb.google.com/peterlborst **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 05:56:07 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: Chalkbrood vs Terramycin MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit These matters have been under discussion here for quite a while. Is AFB the cure for chalkbrood? http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0509&L=BEE-L&P=R15374&D=1&H=0&I=-3&O=D&T=0 allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/default.htm --- No act of kindness, no matter how small, is ever wasted. Aesop (620 BC - 560 BC), The Lion and the Mouse **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 09:40:27 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Peter_L_Borst?= Subject: Re: Chalkbrood vs Terramycin Comments: To: Allen Dick Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >Is AFB the cure for chalkbrood? No. Believe me, as a bee inspector, I have seen plenty of multiple infections. That's just silly. pb **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 14:56:18 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "deknow@netzero.net" Subject: Re: Chalkbrood vs Terramycin Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit -- Peter L Borst wrote: >They go on to say things like "restoring this balance should ..." and "in-vivo experiments indicate ..." and "thus confirming". >None of these assertions are even slightly backed up. you are correct. this particular link is literature from a company that makes drugs....and no, they do not provide actual data...but, based on the other links i've posted, do you question this contention? it seems obvious that a broad spectrum antibiotic negatively impacts a broad spectrum of bacteria...including bacillus (which is why it's used in the first place). any comments on the other links in that post? any thoughts on the longer study i posted late last night? >Saying that "fumagillin comes from stonebrood" is a great oversimplification.... i don't think it is....it is as accurate as "penicillin comes from bread mold". these antibiotic substances are produced by these specific microbes to inhibit competition from other microbes for (what is always) a limited food supply. no, no one is getting up at 6am to milk the stonebrood, but in the stonebrood fungus is where fumigillin is produced...both in nature, and in the factory. it is not synthesized. >We are at the beginning of understanding what it really means to *have healthy colonies*, which everyone agrees we don't now generally have. am i wrong in thinking that the widespread use of treatments and artifical feeds are common factors among unhealthy colonies? does anyone else (besides dee) have a "bounce back" story from ccd (repopulating deadout equipment from survivors without fumigating or treating, and getting a good honey crop the same year...in the desert)? if so, how come we aren't hearing about them? >Microorganisms include the beneficial, the innocuous and the plagues. no argument here...but given the sheer number of microbes in any hive, and in the environment in which the bees live and work (not to mention humans, our pets, our livestock, our crops, etc), it is worth noting that except under the most extreme crowding conditions (like row crops, like conventional chicken farming, like farming salmon in nets, etc), microbial caused disease is actually quite rare...and even more rarely fatal. there is no "mandate" for balance, or the "right" for any organism to live a long time...but how many microbes are you actually scared of encountering? 100? 1000? how often do you become infected? ...compare this to the number of microbes you encounter every day. infection is rare. >I would suggest that if you don't get hard questions like these that you are preaching to a compliant choir. But it is what you would get from hard-boiled scientists. Don't expect them from a gullible public that simply wants to be told what to buy and where to get it. SHOW ME, don't tell me. ...given that "chemical free" is what the membership of the nebraska state beekeeping association voted for as the topic of their yearly gathering...given that the theme for EAS next year (according to their own newsletter)is "Celebrate the Bretheren, Beekeeping Without Chemicals" and includes both Dee Lusby and Erik Osterland as speakers (advertised over a year in advance in their spring 2008 newsletter). http://www.easternapiculture.org/programs/journal/Spring2008.pdf ...given the busy speaking schedule that Michael Bush seems to have, given the steady stream of requests that we seem to be getting for speaking, given the difficulties that beekeepers seem to be having, and given the abundance of advice and anecdotes from scientists that see a real problem, and are not treating their own bees, that this is more than a "fad"....hardly, as you put it, a "gullible public". there is nothing to "buy"...and if i wasn't interested in intense scrutiny, i wouldn't be sticking my neck out on bee-l. "SHOW ME" is exactly why ramona and i went to arizona twice this spring and went through over 600 hives with dee. we didn't come to this by trying to be "radical", "different", or even "green". we didn't want to use treatments in our hives....and "the establishment" of beekeeping science didn't offer any help in this regard...so we found someone who was not only being successful, but was willing to be open about what she was doing and shared her successes and failures freely. after we started down this road several years ago, it became clear that the bees (kept conventionally) are not doing well. did you not post this spring about 90% die offs in your own area? http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0806A&L=BEE-L&P=R968&I=-3 "I have seen 90% losses this year and I think it is due to colonies being in poor condition going into winter." offlist, i've been asked why i did not include the longer study in my original list of links. the truth is, it was 36 pages long, and i didn't want to make any conclusions or claims without going through it carefully before posting and commenting. i didn't have a chance to do so until late last night, and there was pressure (both on and off list) to provide references ASAP. my "list of references" was put together hastily, and for that, i apologize. deknow **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 07:58:41 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: Chalkbrood vs Terramycin MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > No. Believe me, as a bee inspector, I have seen plenty of multiple > infections. That's just silly. Just having some fun. Sometimes I kid around. As an ex-inspector, I have too. In fact, I was on (actually lead) the original team that swept Alberta looking for chalk when it first arrived back in the 70s, and believe me there was lots of AFB, too. A question on the previous topic: Why would anyone see spraying a bacillus on larvae to fight chalk, as being different from applying some oxytet to fight AFB? Beats me. Just asking. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/articles/oxalic_drip.htm --- It is dangerous to be sincere unless you are also stupid. George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950), Man and Superman (1903) "Maxims for Revolutionists" **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 08:47:36 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen Organization: Deep Thought Subject: A Sustainable Commercial Model? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > am i wrong in thinking that the widespread use of treatments and artifical > feeds are common factors among unhealthy colonies? You are right, but these are part of the _solution_ and only a minor part of the problem, and _if_ they are a part of the problem at all, that is largely due to misuse or overuse. > does anyone else (besides dee) have a "bounce back" story from ccd > (repopulating deadout equipment from survivors without fumigating or > treating, and getting a good honey crop the same year...in the desert)? > if so, how come we aren't hearing about them? We need to get one thing perfectly clear here, since many are holding the Lusby experience up as a model for sustainable commercial or even sideline beekeeping and the facts need to be known. I would not mention it otherwise Not to take anything away from Dee and Ed's work, but Dee is _not_ a commercial beekeeper by any definition that includes making a living from bees. Moreover, her "bounce back" was more of a 'creep back" and was accomplished over a long period, with great cost, and, moreover, most people do not know that it was accomplished to a considerable extent through the addition of swarms captured from a golf course and around the City of Tucson -- and by sacrificing any hope of a significant honey crop. She may be the world's biggest hobby beekeeper, but I don't think she has _netted_ a dime in the past decade -- from beekeeping, that is. > "SHOW ME" is exactly why ramona and i went to arizona twice this spring > and went through over 600 hives with dee. we didn't come to this by > trying to be "radical", "different", or even "green". we didn't want to > use treatments in our hives....and "the establishment" of beekeeping > science didn't offer any help in this regard...so we found someone who was > not only being successful, but was willing to be open about what she was > doing and shared her successes and failures freely. Yes. Dee has a lot of great ideas, is a great hostess, and I recommend that everyone pay her a visit. I believe she was talking about a beekeeper B&B and a school when I was there last. (http://www.honeybeeworld.com/Lusby/) I don't know if that came about. I would not recommend her approach as a model for anyone expecting to be a migratory commercial beekeeper, but her contribution to debate has been significant. There are huge and obvious inconsistencies in the theories I hear evangelized, and I recommend that anyone listening to evangelist beekeepers take the blinders off and look around at what successful commercial beekeepers are doing. After all, successful commercial beekeepers cannot be completely wrong since they make their living from bees and some have for generations. That is more than I can say for many, if not all the evangelists. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/Lusby/ --- There are two ways to slide easily through life; to believe everything or to doubt everything. Both ways save us from thinking. Alfred Korzybski (1879 - 1950) **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 12:05:59 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Honey Prices MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Irwin asked me to elaborate on how Homeland Security practices are effectively prohibiting one-time imports of honey from Canada. I'll be glad to, especially in the hope that someone out there knows a way to make such an import. As background, for more than 20 years we have been able to drive to Canada, load up or truck, trailer, or car with food and import it into the US *providing that the purchase price is less than $2,000.* That $2,000 limit has not changed, but at today's general price levels it does not provide for the importation of very much honey. If the value is over $2,000, customs/import regulations come into effect and following 9/11 they hae become very stringent. For many years, I drove my truck to Canada and picked up products with a total value of close to $2,000. So many, that Customs officials reconized me, which was a great help. About three years ago, there was a time when I wished to import product with a value of approximately $5,000. I knew about the $2,000 restriction so set out to do whatever was necessary to make my import. I started with a local customs broker who I use to import non-food products from Europe. Sure, they said, we will handle it just let us know when you are ready. So, about a month prior to my desired date I let them know, they arranged a trucker pickup and referred everything to their normal border agent, Federal Express, in northern New York. Then came the dreaded phone call from my broker..."the border agent says they can't handle it, and we have not been able to find anyone who will". (My broker doesn't normally deal with food products.) So, I got involved. I called Customs. They said approximately "You should not have any problem. However, before we can process the paperwork you need to register with the Food and Drig Administration. Ok, I imagined a really big deal but found that registration was easy provided that my NHB assessments were fully paid. They were, and I was granted an FDA registration number in about a week. I called Customs back. By the way, I was working with a senior person at the Canadian border crossing at the Thousands Islands. When I called back and told him I had my number, he said approximately "just be sure your number is on all the paperwork, and tell them if they have any questions they should call me". So, I went back to my broker, who went back to the border agent... Now, for the benefit of those who do not bring in commercial goods from Canada, at each crossing there are border agents who handle the paperwork to get the goods into the US. The Thousands Island crossing is a large busy place handling a lot of material from Ontario and Quebec. There are at least 50 border agents there, each in their own set of trailers, and employing what must be several hundred people. Regulations issued after 9/11 provide that the paperwork for each import must be at the crossing a set number of days before the actual import and must conform to regulations that include provisions that the border agents 'know' the importer as well as the exporter. So, when a tractor trailer carrying material from 15 different exporters and designated to 10 importers (pick your own numbers) arrives at the border, Customs knows exactly what is on board and can choose to inspect all, any portion, or just wave through. Mostly, the trailers are waved through. The 'rub' comes from the requirements that the border agents 'know' the exporter and importer. While they do not have to actually meet you, shake your hand and look you in the eye, they do have to do more than talk to you on the phone or process your paperwork. In effect, they have to do enough work to have some certainty that neither the exporter or importer is a terroist. Presumably this involves checking at least some references, listings in trade directories, etc. It takes time. Now, the border agents are in business to make money. With large importers/exporters they charge fixed, negotiated fees. With smaller importers/exporters they charge based on the value of the goods. The difficulty with someone "unknown" trying to make a single (or two or three) imports a year from exporters who are not 'known', is that the border agents are of the view that they cannot possibly charge enough to recover their costs and make a profit. I went so far as to tell more than one agent "give me a number on what you'd have to charge to make the import; maybe I'd agree to pay it". None would even do that. So, back I went to the senior Customs agent. "Any way I can import without using a border agent, perhaps by renting a truck so I would not have to get combined with others?" Answer*: No, we require that an approved Agent get the material pre-cleared before importation*. Question "Do you know that none of the Agents at the crossing will take on an unknown importer trying to bring in material from an unknown exporter unless they agree to make mutiple imports during the year?" Answer*: "No, I didn't know that and I'm reasonably sure this has not been brought to our attention. But I do know that there is extensive work involved so I can understand that Agents might decline one-time imports from unknown parties." * ** So, there it stands. I know of one comb honey producer in SAS that has looked into exporting to the US and has essentially 'given up' for the same reason. Thankfully, up until now he has been able to sell everything produced to customers in Canada. Long term he hopes to make arrangements with just one US importer who will redistribute to others, but that will raise the cost and may limit the market. If anyone out there has been able to make one-time imports of honey woth a value of over $2,000, I'd like to know about it so I might be able to emulate the procedures followed. Lloyd **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 09:05:44 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: Chalkbrood vs Terramycin In-Reply-To: <20081118.095618.14880.0@webmail13.dca.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > > > am i wrong in thinking that the widespread use of treatments and artifical > feeds are common factors among unhealthy colonies? Yes, wrong. There is plenty of data (some reported last week in Calif) that artificial feeding can greatly benefit colonies in areas without adequate natural pollen (e.g., California for much of the year). I've seen plenty of support of this with my own eyes. > does anyone else (besides dee) have a "bounce back" story from ccd > (repopulating deadout equipment from survivors without fumigating or > treating, and getting a good honey crop the same year Sure, plenty of beekeepers have done so. This is common practice with commercial beekeepers. > ...in the desert)? Funny, but Dee makes a point of saying that she *doesn't* live in a desert. During Dee's honeyflows, her yards are lush, green, and full of bloom. When some of Dee's bees crashed, I told her not to worry, since the genetic diversity of the swarms that she collects would allow her to quickly rebound. Her recovery, for which I am grateful, since I consider Dee to be a friend and awesome beekeeper, didn't surprise me in the least. > if so, how come we aren't hearing about them? Guess you just don't hang out with enough other beekeepers outside of your group. Dean, I'm about as green and organic and natural as they come. I fully support "natural" beekeeping, however you want to define it. But I have little tolerance for those who cherrypick the scientific literature, or practical experience, to support their personal prejudices. I would guess that everyone on this List would agree that the study of unmanaged bee populations can give us great insight into the incredible and complex ways that Nature selects for species to survive. But as Pete points out--any "balance" of nature is illusory. It's a continual war out there, and the vast majority of species go extinct. People are hungry to return to natural models, and I applaud them. However, it is easy to lose one's perspective, and go too far. At a recent conference, I was shown a *natural* beehive that was touted as the best way to keep bees. It was a large egg-shaped hollow ball of plastered cow dung, with curved plywood frames inside, that stood on a three-legged stand. I didn't know whether to laugh or cry as I saw the promotor convincing new beekeepers that this was the only natural way to keep honeybees. Dean, we kept healthy, thriving colonies of bees for many years under near identical management techniques as used today--you couldn't hardly kill them. Then at least four new parasites arrived (chalkbrood, tracheal mite, varroa, Nosema ceranae) and turned the entire bee immune response upside down. The effects of these parasites are easily observed and documented. Bees are struggling to come to terms with major changes due to parasite stress and viral transmission. Not due to our management, but due to simple natural phenomena. The unmanaged, "organic" feral population was decimated. Those bees existed in as natural a state as can be. But virtually all died. So much for the power of organic beekeeping to fight parasites (in the short term). Some beekeepers, such as Dee, benefitted by an influx of stronger bee genetics. Others bred from the few surviving feral colonies. There are a number of success stories, and I applaud them. Dean, all of us fully support the keeping of bees with the minimal amount of chemicals or supplemental feeding (which is expensive and labor intensive). But at this point in time, few commercial beekeepers could survive with the current state of bee genetic material available, without some chemotherapy. That said, I totally agree that many, due the precautionary principle, tend to overuse antibiotics. >From time to time, you post rather shrill, simplistic, poorly-substantiated arguments as though they were a great enlightening that will solve our problems. Here in California, I sell my chemical-free nucs to starry-eyed New Age beekeepers every spring. Unfortunately, most of those nucs die from the owner trying to impose his/her belief system upon the bees, as the poor bees face the ruthless hand of nature. Please keep the example of the cow dung egg bee hive in mind when you tout your solutions to the real world problems that bees are facing. Respectfully yours, Randy Oliver **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 12:41:07 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter L Borst Subject: Re: Chalkbrood vs Terramycin MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline from the Vita web site > biological control of chalkbrood (by the use of Bacillus sp.) was feasible "Bacillus sp." is a pretty vague term. One should bear in mind, the bacillus genus includes Bacillus anthracis, which causes anthrax B. megaterium used as a soil inoculant in agriculture and horticulture B. sphaericus used as a larvicide for mosquito control B. subtilis, an important model organism, notable food spoiler, causing ropiness in bread and related food B. thuringiensis, is an important insect pathogen, used to control insect pests However, while on the topic of AFB vs Chalkbrood, this also from the Vita web site: > At Cardiff University a non-pathogenic bacterium, Paenibacillus larvae subsp. pulvifaciens (PLP) normally present in beehives at low levels, was shown to produce natural substances, which annihilate M. plutonius in laboratory cultures. Further testing at the National Bee Unit, York has given encouraging results of good tolerance in and extremely low risk of toxicity to honeybees. This is important, as honeybees can be incredibly sensitive to certain compounds. I wonder, however, might using something like that give a false positive for AFB? -- Peter L Borst Danby, NY USA 42.35, -76.50 http://picasaweb.google.com/peterlborst **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 14:27:48 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill T Subject: Re: Chalkbrood vs Terramycin In-Reply-To: <3dcef4a10811180905v32131d40oa32a0e258e4d690@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > > The unmanaged, "organic" feral population was decimated. Those bees > existed > in as natural a state as can be. But virtually all died. So much for the > power of organic beekeeping to fight parasites (in the short term). I can add an anecdotal data point. When I lost my bees last year I put out several different baits to see if there were any bees in the area. Zero. But I keep as organic an operation as you can get, in fact I lost my bees because I did not treat that year as a test of small cell. So any feral bees would have been about as free from any treatments as possible. (The only treatment I have used is oxalic acid and it has worked every year I have used it, and I only treat once in the late fall.) When I got my new bees, all the baits were inundated with bees (as a test to see if there was a problem with the baits). So there has been plenty of opportunity for feral colonies to survive in my area, but they did not. Here in California, I sell my chemical-free nucs to starry-eyed > New Age beekeepers every spring. Unfortunately, most of those nucs die > from > the owner trying to impose his/her belief system upon the bees, as the > poor > bees face the ruthless hand of nature. > Another standard observation. I know of no organic beekeeper in my area who still keeps bees. All the bees died out. I do have a few new beekeepers in the area this year, and hope they do well. Also, very nice to see both Murray and Allen posting again. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 15:06:31 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: A Sustainable Commercial Model? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > does anyone else (besides dee) have a "bounce back" story from ccd > (repopulating deadout equipment from survivors without fumigating or > treating, and getting a good honey crop the same year...in the desert)? > if so, how come we aren't hearing about them? I think that it is crucial to make it clear that Dee never had "CCD", and never claimed she saw any CCD-like symptoms. What she had was more mundane losses from a massive, undetected, untreated Nosema ceranae infestation. What she reported was a confusion set of symptoms, but not CCD-like symptoms. Dean ("Deknow") knows all this very well, so I don't know why he would suddenly characterize Dee's losses as "CCD". If nothing else, I mentioned those losses here on Bee-L on July 23rd as being caused by Nosema ceranae based upon clear lab results Dee had sent me. As I recall Jerry B ordered the lab tests for her. As far as a "sustainable" commercial model, I pointed out a while ago that the whole "migratory" approach to profitable beekeeping has been around since at least 3,000 BC, which makes it among the most "sustainable" things man has ever attempted to sustain. Back then, all one was getting was a honey crop, and no one paid for pollination, but the bees were still moved between blooming crops. I'll quote from my contribution to the Dec 2007 "Pimping Bees" thread: >> An entertaining story can be found in the collection of >> papers called "The Bureaucracy of Ptolemaic Egypt" (found >> at Columbia U, copies elsewhere), where a group of beekeepers >> petition a local official for the return of their donkeys, >> conscripted for some unnamed public works project. They >> point out that they had loaned their donkeys for 10 days, >> and 18 days had passed without their return. The growers >> were waiting impatiently for the beekeepers to move their >> hives, as the growers wanted to burn the weeds and brush >> and then flood the fields. The farmers were hinting that >> they would set the fires by some deadline, hives moved or >> not, so the beekeepers pointed out that their loss of hives >> would reduce the taxes that could be paid to the king. >> >> Sound familiar? Growers anxious to do their pest control >> and fertilization, wanting the hives out NOW. Beekeepers >> forced to beg for even minimal attention from the government. >> Some things never change. And all that has happened in the 5,000 years since is that the ride has gotten smoother for the bees. I'd hate to have to do anything with a hive that spent the day before bouncing around on a donkey! ^.^ So if anyone is going to call any aspect of beekeeping "unsustainable", they need to explain how we've managed to muddle through for 5,000 years without all the dogma about "sustainability. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 15:09:51 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: FW: The USA is in bad need of new genetics from abroad MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 15/11/2008 03:58:55 GMT Standard Time, deelusbybeekeeper@YAHOO.COM writes: <> Surely what you need is beekeepers who either raise their own queens, or at least let the bees raise them on their own. That's how it's done in the UK, where we have no significant queen breeding industry. We still have to cope with people incessantly importing queens, as people in the US would have to cope with neighbours buying in queens. But you've got to start somewhere, and I never cease to be surprised at the bees' capacity for maintaining a strain without too much outcrossing. I think mating with drones from the home apiary is a lot more important than we sometimes assume. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 15:18:56 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill T Subject: Varroa in ferals in Hawaii MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline http://www.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/20081118/BREAKING01/81118012 Not as bad as it sounds since they are there already, and it seems they are containing them as well as possible, Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 23:10:24 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: Chalkbrood vs Terramycin In-Reply-To: <20081118.023932.25418.0@webmail12.dca.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed In message <20081118.023932.25418.0@webmail12.dca.untd.com>, "deknow@netzero.net" writes >....here is some evidence to support the theory that terramycin in the >hive will negatively affect some of the bacillus that inhibits >chalkbrood...leading to an increased infection. not proof, but pretty >strong evidence....any thoughts? Many many years ago, back in my fathers time (pre 1982) we had some colonies showing Foul brood like symptoms, which had been acquired from another local beekeeper, a well known and widely admired breeder. After a few weeks they were showing a few symptoms of less than welcome complaints. Chalk brood was widespread, and EFB and AFB like symptoms were showing up sporadically. Analysis came back clear of both foul broods, and that the problem was probably genetic. However, in a trial the local bee health man treated part of the unit with Terramycin. The strange brood was unaltered remaining present in both the treated and untreated units. However, for some reason the treated ones no longer had chalkbrood, whilst the untreated ones did. The spring was cool and damp, and the colonies not very strong, classic chalkbrood conditions. A couple of weeks later a flow came on from the raspberries and the brood ailments and the chalkbrood vanished, and were not seen again that season. In spring 2008 we were plagued by chalkbrood here in Eastern Scotland, the worst for many years. We were finding it hard to see enough really vibrant breeders to work from which were strong, prosperous, free of chalk, and showing appropriate temperament. However, we found enough and started the daily grafting programme, only to discover selected mothers going down with a wave of chalk too, and strangely some that had lots of it turning up with none on the next visit. Colonies laying up new wax were the worst affected. In severe cases perhaps as high as 40% of larvae were dead with chalkbrood. By late June however all were clear and no more heavy amounts were to be found. It was a topic of conversation this summer at our annual get together of commercial guys, and we all thought we had had it bad till one guy in the corner piped up that for the first time (this guy is a good breeder who sends stock all over) he had had colonies die from chalkbrood. None of us had heard of such a thing. He took out a plastic binbag and took out a few combs and passed them round, and seriously...these were 90% or worse chalk! However, a bit like everyone else, a bit of decent weather, a bit of a honey flow, and a bit of colony growth, and almost all his chalk was gone. Like us he had found the new wax was worst, one frame he showed was just solid chalk. All this in an environment where NO antibiotics are ever used (ancient experiment excepted) -- Murray McGregor **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 13:46:21 -1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Howard McGinnis Subject: Re: Varroa in ferals in Hawaii MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Unfortunately, I hear rumors that some beeks have moved bees from mite free areas of the island to the macadamia nut fields near Hilo, so we can only expect the mite to spread. On Oahu, the ferals have made a remarkable comeback. In places where bees were aplenty last year, none this year until the Sept - Oct time frame. All of a sudden, they're back. We've been having late swarms, large ones well into November and the bees appear healthy. Where the ferals are coming from is a mystery, as I thought we lost most of them coming out of the rainy season this year. Managed colonies, treated or untreated, are strong and making honey like crazy, although it's slowing down now. Howard in Hawaii **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 15:10:46 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: Varroa in ferals in Hawaii In-Reply-To: <8c0381120811181218g2bb1589dma53bc5ccaa034e3e@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii <> "treated and destroyed"???? Why would they treat a feral colony before destroying it? I see they are starting off with an already been proved to be a failed control tactic of eliminating ferals. Joe **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 19:31:31 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter L Borst Subject: Antibiotics - more harm than good? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Current events, apropos our discussion: The most complete survey to date of bacterial diversity in the human gut shows extensive but temporary changes in the microbial community following ciprofloxacin treatment. The intestinal microbiota is essential to human health, with effects on nutrition, metabolism, pathogen resistance, and other processes. Antibiotics may disrupt these interactions and cause acute disease, as well as contribute to chronic health problems. We tracked changes in the intestinal microbiota of three healthy humans before and after treatment with the antibiotic ciprofloxacin, with high sensitivity and resolution, and without sacrificing breadth of coverage. Ciprofloxacin reduced the diversity of the intestinal microbiota, with significant effects on about one-third of the bacterial taxa. Despite this pervasive disturbance, the membership of the communities had largely returned to the pretreatment state within 4 weeks. -- "The Pervasive Effects of an Antibiotic on the Human Gut Microbiota" by Les Dethlefsen, et al PLoS Biology Vol. 6, No. 11 Published November 18, 2008 **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 20:27:02 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Varroa in ferals in Hawaii MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Joe Waggle said: > I see they are starting off with an already been > proved to be a failed control tactic of eliminating ferals. One of the most famous cases of the "elimination of ferals" was the Santa Cruz Island Reserve project, where Adrian Wenner tried and tried to eliminate all the feral colonies so as to return the island to an ecosystem that was 100% "native". The attempt did not fail - it succeeded with a little help from varroa. So, given an island of finite size and varroa, I'd wager that their odds are good, but no one ever takes my bets. In beekeeping, the odds are good that the goods are odd. :) **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 17:55:23 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Chalkbrood vs Terramycin In-Reply-To: <3dcef4a10811180905v32131d40oa32a0e258e4d690@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Randy: Then at least four new parasites arrived (chalkbrood, tracheal mite, varroa, Nosema ceranae) and turned the entire bee immune response upside down.=A0 Reply: Oddly at same time this happened in each case,=A0it corresponded with/follo= wing enlargement of foundations and phase in of same, which makes one wonde= r why the push to keep going bigger?=A0 Especially over in various spots in= Europe with Russia now with declared worker size upped to 5.6mm officially= now I believe. Someone correct me if I am wrong on saying this.........Wha= t will it bring next also for transfer problems by way of parasites and mic= robes, etc? =A0 Dee A. Lusby=20 =A0=0A=0A=0A **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 17:00:06 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: A Sustainable Commercial Model? In-Reply-To: <007b01c949b9$26b20c70$0501000a@j> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > > As far as a "sustainable" commercial model, There are certainly aspects of our commercial model that are hard to classify as sustainable. For example, if not for the release of Tylosin, the "control AFB with Terramycin" was not sustainable. If not for the release of Hivastan, the current synthetic miticide model was in danger of failing, as amitraz begins to show failure. The organic beekeeping group are to be commended for keeping bees with minimal synthetic inputs, but I would prefer that they not be so self righteous. "Natural beekeeping" would mean that colonies would not be crowded into yards, hives would be up in trees, no honey would be extracted, so that colonies would swarm freely, and a large percentage of colonies would die naturally each year. The "unnaturalness" of any of our approaches is more in degree, rather that black or white. Randy Oliver **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 19:31:42 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: Chalkbrood vs Terramycin MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Oddly at same time this happened in each case, it corresponded > with/following enlargement of foundations and phase in of same, which > makes one wonder why the push to keep going bigger? Especially over in > various spots in Europe with Russia now with declared worker size upped to > 5.6mm officially now I believe. Someone correct me if I am wrong on saying > this.........What will it bring next also for transfer problems by way of > parasites and microbes, etc? Dee, most of us who use foundation measure it at 5.2 to 5.3. What does that say? I know what it says to me. Talking about the exceptions is a distraction from what most are using and what is really happening: nothing much. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/4dot9/default.htm --- Beliefs are what divide people. Doubt unites them. Peter Ustinov (1921 - 2004) **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 19:56:24 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: A Sustainable Commercial Model? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > There are certainly aspects of our commercial model that are hard to > classify as sustainable. For example, if not for the release of Tylosin, > the "control AFB with Terramycin" was not sustainable. Oxytet was never a very effective drug -- especially after sulfa was not available as an alternative. Oxytet _never_ really worked when used as recommended. Anybody who followed the recommendations had breakdowns. Sulfa was fantastic, but it turned out to have human health problems. In those days, one ppm was an unimaginably small amount. Today we argue over ppb. Sulfa was _so_ good that it derailed the movement to breeding for AFB resistance and set us all back along time. Decades were wasted, but lots of equipment and bees were saved. (Read Philips). Tylosin is similarly effective. Is that a good thing? If you are facing 1/3 of your outfit broken down and your oldest kid is about to go to university, it is a godsend, BUT, there is a difference between an emergency measure to save your bacon, and something that can be used in perpetuity. We cannot do that. We have to manage without those aids as soon as we can. THAT is the problem. Our researchers have thrown us lifelines so we could make it one more year and learn new ways, but some have thought that these temporary, emergency measures could serve them forever -- and abuse that lifeline. > The organic beekeeping group are to be commended for keeping bees with > minimal synthetic inputs Very much so. We all aspire to managing without drugs and treatments. We just have eat and keep our bees alive until we can get there. Just because a few have been able to do so does not mean that everyone can. Some are just plain lucky, and not necessarily great managers or even "right". > but I would prefer that they not be so self righteous. "Natural > beekeeping" would mean that colonies would not be crowded into yards, > hives would be up in trees, no honey would be extracted, so that colonies > would swarm freely, and a large percentage of colonies would die naturally > each year. You said it. > The "unnaturalness" of any of our approaches is more in degree, rather > that black or white. I doubt anyone starts beekeeping with the goal of stepping on a chemical treadmill. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/4dot9/ --- To believe with certainty we must begin with doubting. Stanislaw Leszczynski (1677 - 1766) **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 20:03:54 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: Varroa in ferals in Hawaii MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > One of the most famous cases of the "elimination of ferals" was the Santa > Cruz Island Reserve project, where Adrian Wenner tried and tried to > eliminate all the feral colonies so as to return the island to an > ecosystem that was 100% "native". The attempt did not fail - it succeeded > with a little help from varroa. Yes. We had a most pleasant visit with Adrian and his wife not too long ago in Santa Barbara. He used to be a regular here. Haven't heard form him lately. > So, given an island of finite size and varroa, I'd wager that their odds > are good, but no one ever takes my bets. We hate to lose. Jose's recent contribution though, gives us a hint what can happen in a less limited environment with a larger gene pool. > In beekeeping, the odds are good that the goods are odd. :) And the odds are odd, too. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/articles/broodframes.htm --- To have doubted one's own first principles is the mark of a civilized man. Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr. (1841 - 1935) **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 21:49:51 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: A Sustainable Commercial Model? In-Reply-To: <3dcef4a10811181700k1acf4d76p791ef60a49bcb388@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Randy: The organic beekeeping group are to be commended for keeping bees with minimal synthetic inputs, but I would prefer that they not be so self righteous.=A0 "Natural beekeeping" would mean that colonies would not be crowded into yards, hives would be up in trees, no honey would be extracted= , so that colonies would swarm freely, and a large percentage of colonies would die naturally each year. Reply: If I had/have my way organic beekeeping would be ZERO treatments and NO art= ificial feeds, and I admit I am hardheaded also, promoting linebreeding mor= e and more,=A0and modified outbreeding to=A0acclimitize colonies back to lo= cal/regional living again.On this I will not give in for in looking at what= is happening I cannot see any better long-term solution. I see no problem = with small to normal sized beeyards of 10-60 hives in a given area, but I d= o see a problem with large staging areas as done in wholesale large migrato= ry outfits to the detriment of the honeybees so put there fwiw. Hives in na= ture are not all up in trees, for many are found naturally occuring in=A0na= turally occurring holes=A0on sides of cliffs, and other hollows, including = the ground, and yes, I am saying living down inthe ground having had to dig= a few out for various ranchers up and down arroyos, and fields with=A0 sin= k holes, etc. and I am not even talking naturally living in cacti, and buildings or anything else they seem to call home! Honey would be extracte= d for even in nature honey has been extracted for centuries, by early man a= nd bears and other animals and is how we originally got set in our sweet to= oth loving ways for it. Further,=A0honeybees set up in colonies mimicing na= ture do not swarm as seen today in most beekeepers yards with hodpodged com= b positioning, but that is something many here should be aware of by=A0now = with pov from me too.As fpr large percentage of colonies dying each year...= .........well: it goes in cycles and for the most part the colonies are hea= lthy and strong if let to grow up from tonka toys size used as=A0standard h= ives today. But in saying this where drought and fire and other come into p= lay problems can arise for 1 to 3 to 5 years=A0and you learn to roll with t= he bees following them and help without overdoing, which again to me means = no treatments or artificial feeds in hives,=A0for stores can be moved around manually and is nothing hard for clean beekeepers to learn, for if = I can do it going on 62=A0as a poor old beekeeper woman then see no problem= with the men.=A0=A0 =A0 Recently it was said I was not commercial but yet I keep about 700 hives an= d anticipate increasing this coming year. Haven't made much honey this year= as have only sold about 20 barrels full and 30 still in honeyhouse and sti= ll 18 more yards to finish extracting and beeding down......but with gasoli= ne and other bills are there and I am but a poor old beekeeper woman and yo= u know ranch/farm life is hard, tight and you never get caught up for I hat= e paying taxes and all these bills and things to buy for reconditioning kee= p coming in.........It is just so terrible.....but I still got bees..... an= d with the 200 out of 300 lost last fall that Dr Loper went thru for Dr Bro= menshenk saying CCD symptoms like he was seeing....=A0and then=A0personally= taking=A0=A0samples for Dr Bromenshenk =A0that I believe JIM FISCHER here = on BEE-L and on the organic list demanded results on which were posted I ju= st don't know what to say.........but right now having done what I posted here I was going to do to correct the problem and is in archives here for = all to read and on organic list also to read, I must say, with me still bed= ding down, I have bees, they are strong and looks great for next year......= ..............the weak seem gone, but only time will tell if it repeats its= elf with large percentage dying each year..........but so far haven't seen = that at all this year though last year I cryed.(so a yearly event??? dunno)= .......So been working coloines back up and is it a sustainable commercial = model? Well I am property zoned 100% commercial agric, have all those bills= to pay making no money it seems with agric bills,=A0and some honey this ye= ar so far and sure hope it gets better for the pool old woman......... =A0 In ending, leaving for Nebraska, see you all in about a week... =A0 Dee A. Lusby=0A=0A=0A **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 23:27:31 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Chalkbrood vs Terramycin In-Reply-To: <8E1CAEAE6FED4090A6BF0B40303FCFE1@Aristotle> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Talking about the exceptions is a distraction from what most are using and what is really happening: nothing much. Reply: Except when the exceptions are healthy and what most are using then requires treatments for controlling pests, predators and diseases for what is really happening. But indeed nothing much, as yet! Dee **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 09:44:11 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Chalkbrood vs Terramycin In-Reply-To: <505822.10254.qm@web51612.mail.re2.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Dee > various spots in Europe with Russia now with declared worker size upped to 5.6mm officially I thought that might be reference to something that I said about some strains of A. m. mellifera, but Dee links 5.6 mm to Russian stock. Can we have references please ? Allen says... > most of us who use foundation measure it at 5.2 to 5.3. In UK we have a wider range of sizes available 5.1 to 5.9, but the majority falls in the narrower range 5.4 mm to 5.7 mm with 5.4 and 5.45 being the most common. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://melliferabees.net Email: dave.cushman@lineone.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 7.21/2.01 Son of ORAC M/c, Build 5.o1/2.o1 **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 04:10:51 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Argentina MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> Now we are receiving owfull news from Argentina , two of the bigger >> exporters stopped buying any honey. There are no transactions during >> november I heard from Martin today. He reports, in part: "Indeed the bee season in Argentina is a very complicated one. Drought conditions are severe in our region with plenty of unusual robbing at this time of the year. Anyway, we are stocking our mating nucs the best we can. and "The local honey market has come to a complete stop. Nobody buys honey nor a price is informed. Beekeepers are concerned. The northwestern honey crop was a failure. While the northeastern Mesopotamia citrus crop was better than expected. Overall the prospects are not encouraging given the extremely dry conditions. Things are getting tough everywhere, it seem that Argentina has the worst luck with their politicians. Let's hope for the best for our fellow beekeepers. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/articles/broodframes.htm --- Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists or not, diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedy. Ernest Benn **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 07:00:37 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_L_Borst?= Subject: Re: Chalkbrood vs Terramycin Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dee Lusby wrote: Someone correct me if I am wrong on saying this......... See my article in July 2008 issue of the American Bee Journal. I completely demolish the small cell fantasy. I will send a copy to anyone who hasn't read it. pb **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 08:55:07 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: FW: Radio Tracking May Help Explain Colony Collapse Disorder MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit -----Original Message----- From: editor@medibee.com [mailto:editor@medibee.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2008 8:33 AM Radio Tracking May Help Explain Colony Collapse Disorder Tiny Radio Tags Offer Rare Glimpse into Bees' Universe John Roach, National Geographic Magazine, 11/14/2008 http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2008/11/081114-bees-radio-tracki ng-missions.html ...Wikelski is pioneering the use of supersmall radio tracking tags that fit on the backs of bees, a technological breakthrough that may provide him and other scientists with a direct view of the pollinators' flight patterns... **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 09:54:38 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Bill_Russell?= Subject: questions about formic Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit First message to this list in years - Sevaral months back someone mentioned a way to check formic acid strength while it's still in the container. Was it using the eye droper type device with the four balls in it used for checking coolant strength in a radiator? A hydrometer, I think its called. I'm a little confused, what's the consensus on the most effective concentration when applying formic - 50% or 65%. My understanding is that in the 65-80 degree range 50% was the way to go. Thanks for any info, Bill Russell Eustis Fl. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 15:35:21 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill T Subject: Re: FW: Radio Tracking May Help Explain Colony Collapse Disorder In-Reply-To: <6999718ED3E19D4AA061F73254EEA341052E90B4@UAEXCH.univ.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > > ...Wikelski is pioneering the use of supersmall radio tracking tags that > fit on the backs of bees, a technological breakthrough that may provide > him and other scientists with a direct view of the pollinators' flight > patterns... Isn't this the same technology that Jerry B. actually pioneered? Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 16:00:25 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: FW: Radio Tracking May Help Explain Colony Collapse Disorder MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yes, this is a version of the RFID technology that we pioneered, and their =20 chips are much larger than the ones we developed with PNNL. We ended that =20 line of investigation when we realized that: =20 1) the chips hindered long-distance flight and search activity, and 2) no one in their right mind would tags tens to hundreds of thousands of =20 bees on the scale of the bee search population (trained foragers) that we f= ly. =20 Even if you made a robotic tagging line, you'd still have problems tagging=20 huge numbers of bees. And, the more bees that fly, the better the probabil= ity=20 that some will find the target of interest. =20 Dogs are great, but they work one at a time, with a handler, on the end of=20= a=20 leash. The power of using bees for search is to take off the leash,=20 dramatically increase the number of searchers. =20 The Mayo Institute followed up our work with a 'grain of salt' transmitter,=20= =20 that met specifications that I outlined in terms of size, weight, etc. The= y=20 offered it for licensing. =20 =20 But by that time, we had our laser systems that could track bees without th= e=20 need for a tag. These systems get better and smaller each year, so we don'= t=20 need RFIDs for bees. We can map every bee across a field with lasers that=20 key on the flash from the wing. =20 =20 I would like to have a tiny RFID - and by tiny, I mean much smaller than th= e=20 ones just described. We never got a truly AFFORDABLE, tiny RFID tag for research or beekeeper=20 use. =20 =20 We're open to any developments in this area. Raytheon just published in=20 Forbes an article about a small RFID tag that they are producing and tested=20= in=20 Florida. I'd assume they may find that patenting this could pose a problem= ,=20 since many versions of tags (RFID and others) for bees exist, have been=20 published, and other groups have patented two-way radio communications tags= for=20 this purpose. =20 As most of you know, we pioneered the use of bees to search out explosives,= =20 dead bodies, meth labs, etc. , and that The University of Montana holds the= =20 patents on conditioning bees for search purposes. =20 =20 Finding the bees has been an obstacle that we've worked to overcome, and =20 we've now got both laser and image processing systems that can do the trick=20= -=20 RFIDs would have limited use in this context. Our experience shows that =20 radio-frequency signals often get blocked by vegetation, especially with sma= ll =20 responders. Obviously, we can't see around corners with our laser and vide= o=20 systems, but we can track bees from multiple vantage points. =20 So, we'll stick to our stand-off systems that look at free-flying bees. No= =20 interference with their search, nor limits in terms of numbers of searchers= =20 that we can follow/map. =20 As per CCD and where the bees go, the problem is catching a colony or =20 colonies as they go out the door - not in imaging or tracking them per se= . =20 Jerry =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 **************Check out smokin=E2=80=99 hot deals on laptops, desktops and m= ore from=20 Dell. Shop Deals=20 (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1213345834x1200842686/aol?redir=3Dh= ttp://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;209513277;31396581;l) **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 23:59:16 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juanse Barros Subject: Varroa resistant genetic / NZ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline http://www.odt.co.nz/news/farming/31654/varroa-mite-target-island-experiment -- Juanse Barros J. APIZUR S.A. Carrera 695 Gorbea - CHILE +56-45-271693 08-3613310 http://apiaraucania.blogspot.com/ juanseapi@gmail.com **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 19:07:55 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Everything reminds Me of My Dog MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Talking about the exceptions is a distraction from what most are using > > and what is really happening: nothing much. > Except when the exceptions are healthy and what most are using then > requires treatments for controlling pests, predators and diseases for what > is really happening. But indeed nothing much, as yet! Well, actually, I was referring to references mentioning larger cells, not to small, or 'natural' cells and I really do not want to get into the amazing claims made for the latter. See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SdJ0h1ztuMA _But_, I am reminded that Europeans tend to have a wider range of cell sizes and access to some foundations with much larger cells than Americans. I have always found that odd, but maybe the bees there or some environmental factors there are inexplicably different? I still recall Jerry's story of hauling bees to Maryland and finding they could not get through screens they were going through just fine, days before back in the West. That is not to say that Americans have not made some big foundations, but the ones I am aware of were intended to be an intermediate size between worker and drone. The idea was that the queen would find them less attractive and that they would be used for honey storage, and because the capillary effect would be less, that they would extract better. allen Today, in Laguna Beach, CA. --- Most people assume the fights are going to be the left versus the right, but it always is the reasonable versus the jerks. Jimmy Wales, Keynote Speech, SXSW 2006 **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 17:51:22 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Ted_Hancock?= Subject: Re: A Sustainable Commercial Model? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit One of the oldest moral codes in farming is 'do no harm to your neighbour'. That means you don't do things like throw rocks gathered from your fields across the fence into your neighbour's fields. And you don't let your fields grow up in weeds that then invade your neighbour's property. I feel our modern migratory beekeeping system tends to break this code by spreading pests and diseases. We rationalize doing so by arguing that this is the only practical way to feed the world. But as others have pointed out, it is a style of beekeeping that is dependent on science to continually throw us chemical life lines to avoid collapse. The growers that finance this system are also very dependent on science to fend off collapse. Because they have planted huge monocultures, their crops are very susceptiable to evolving pests and parasites. But, so far, so good. And after all, ancient Egyptians floated hives up and down the Nile and packed them around on donkeys without any problems, which is such a close parallel to today's situation that we should be good. But don't you find it a little screwy that a beekeeper with 300 hives who carefully avoids developing resistant varroa by alternating his mite treatments, is considered an impractical dreamer? And that our industry leaders are those who are totally dependendent on science to come up with the next new mite strip? The big weakness in our current system is that if science can't come up with the next big cure, then we all go down the tubes, because thanks to migration and world trade, we've now all got the same disease profile in our hives. If science fails us and things do collapse maybe we should consider going back to a policy of 'do no harm to your neighbour'. Ted Thinking: some of these arguments are harming my brain. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 15:10:45 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.net" Subject: Re: Genetic compatibility effects on caste determination Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>The more patrilines there are, the more finely tuned can be the colonies workforce. I wonder if colonies favor some patrilines over others at different times of the year... Waldemar **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 15:40:11 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "deknow@netzero.net" Subject: treatments, etc Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit i find it telling the level of personal attacks going on here. yes, i posted some links that did not support my claims. i posted these links after quite a bit of offlist pressure, after i had already _politely asked_ for patience, as we were in the middle of preparing 2 talks. i should not have bowed to the pressure, and i should have "put my ducks in rows". in the end, however, i apologized (most of the vocal posters on this list generally drop a topic when they make mistakes). in the end, i did provide a good cite (and almost irrefutable logic...that antibiotitcs interfere with bacteria that have an antagonistic effect on chalkbrood). i've said quite a few things recently...and i've backed them up with good research. no, this is not "irrefutable proof" of anything...no more than any 1 study (or group of studies) is irrefutable proof of anything. lots of words have been put in my mouth. let me be clear. i don't advocate "purely natural beekeeping", and i don't approach things the way i do out of some philosophical mission....my motivation is pure practicality. the hive is not just a 'super-organism' of bees, but a 'super-super organism' of bees and microbes. these microbes (and the bees) form a "web" of interrelationships. many microbes produce substances that are toxic to other microbes (and even bees) in varying degrees...many produce substnaces that are nutrients to other microbes (and bees). these are not simple 1 on 1 relationships...it is a network, a web of dependence. many of these microbes are only known to exist in one environment (like the honey stomach of the honeybee), and have clearly co-evolved with the bee over something like 100million years. picture this "web" as a sphere...a ball. if these releationships were fixed, were rigid (like a billiard ball), the ball (the web) would shatter when stressed (like the "tree bending in the wind" analogy that is commonly cited). instead, this is a squishy rubber ball. stress (dropping the ball, hitting it with a bat, etc) causes the ball to deform, absorb the "impact" and rebound. there are over 8000 types of microbes making up this web/ball, and their relative populations change and influence each other dynamically based on location, season, stress, food sources,etc. our approach to keeping bees is one that recognizes the importance of this "supporting cast", and treats it with the respect it deserves...not out of some kind of "new age" spiritual belief...not out of some kind of "save the planet" dogma, but out of pure practicality...this is the environment in which the bees evolved and survived for some 100million years...and it is too complex for us to quantify in any real meaningful way....never mind our inability to substitute an artificial set of controls to accomplish similar results. can we substitute the flora in our healthy guts with chemicals? can we keep humans healthy in a completely sterile environment (inside and outside the body)? yes, fumidill is made from the fungus that causes stonebrood...and could be considered a "natural" substance in the hive...if not for the quantity. perhaps a scientist could quantify for us the level of stonebrood fungus that would need to be present in the hive in order to result in a similar amount of the fumidil antibiotic that is applied by beekeepers, and to compare this to a sub-lethal infection of stonebrood....i'm willing to bet that it is orders of magnitude above the level of stonebrood that would kill a hive. yes, organic acids occur in the hive, and are "natural substances"...but the levels used are out of whack with what would normally be in hive. the microbes (nor the bees) in the hive have never, through all of evolution, been exposed to anything close to such levels. treatments with organophosphates, pyrethroids, antibiotics, fungicides, organic acids, essential oils inside the hive are outside the scope of the microbial web's ability to deal with. the "ball cannot bounce back"....which is why when such treatments are used, their usage must be continued...the dynamic relationships between the microbes are shattered, and they can no longer do their part to keep the honeybee colony functional. yes, there can be some "bouncback" from some of these...but we expect that the "soft treatments" (which are toxic to a much broader spectrum of microbial life as well as cells/organs of honeybees than even a broad spectrum antibiotic like cipro) are especially problematic. killing a big chunk of these microbes (which simply must happen when organic acids are vaporized within the hive over a period of time...or fed in syrup) a couple of times a year simply must have long term implications for the "super-super organism" of the beehive. none of this is news...it's pretty straight forward. now, wrt migratory beekeeping. this is how we feed ourselves as a nation. the relationship between big farms and migratory beekeepers is well established. these farms (especially the monocrop farms that use herbicides to kill off the weeds) both need insect pollination, and are unable to support populations of insect pollinators. the farmers (or "agribusinsesses") need to lure the beekeeper to the farm at the right time of year. this isn't much different from a tree luring a honeybee with sweet nectar in order to get it's own (the trees) pollination requirements met. in the case of the almonds, this lure is money (and i have no problem with money). the prices being paid make it worthwhile for beekeepers to bring bees to california from clear across the country by the hundreds and thousands (which simply is not the same thing as carrying a few hives on donkeys). the feeding required, the treatments required, and the almost assured exposure to disease (by having so many hives in such close proximity...both within an orchard or feedlot, and the general proximity of all the almond groves) are negative influences on the beekeepers decision to make such a trip with their bees. apparently, $150/hive is enough these days to overcome the negatives. the payoff can be huge. like any investment, the things that control the price include, barriers to entry (having enough bees to offer to the almonds, having enough money to invest to get them moved to the almonds), supply (how many bees are available), demand (how many trees are there that need pollinating)...and risk (will my bees get sick, will my bees die, will my bees get stolen, will i get paid, etc). in all investments (and make no mistake, bringing bees to the almonds is an investment), high returns generally go hand in hand with high risk. so, what's my point? that migratory beekeepers having trouble is to be expected...the price being paid is a good indicator of this. i understand the stresses involved, and i understand the motivation, and "need" to use these treatments to keep the bees alive, to pay the bills, to live. but it's like any other high risk investment...if the chemical controls being used were foolproof, or even worked predictably, we wouldn't be having this conversation....and there would be more migratory beekeepers bringing bees to the almonds, bringing down the price paid per hive. i don't blame the beekeepers...this is the system we have for growing food. in the long run, i think things have to change...but that's not by simply stopping migratory beekeeping...the whole food production system must change (eventually). is the money offered "sweet enough nectar" to attract the beekeepers? at this point, it seems to be. but what if beekeepers refused to place bees in monocrops? what if they refused to place bees in the cranberries (where dave mendes testified to congress that his bees picked up 7000 ppm fungicides...because they are applied according to label to the very open blooms that the bees are there to pollinate...nevermind to the water the bees are drinking)? what if beekeepers only placed their bees where due consideration on the health of the bees was made by the farmer? what if the "nectar" of $150/hive wasn't enough? what if $300/hive wasn't enough? what if the beekeepers concerns were first and foremost focused on the long term health! of their bees...knowing that this is the foundation on which effective pollination (and honey production) rests? is this a pipe dream? perhaps...but the increase in treatments in the hive since the mites came is staggering. the pr on ccd that "pesticides" are to blame, yet the use of organophospahtes, pyrethroids, organic acids, essential oils are never mentioned....and i stand firmly behind my contention that these things are harmful to the 'super-super organism', and bypasses it's ability to adapt to challenges...they are overpowering a careful and elastic set of relationships that have kept bees (and their microbes) alive for 100 million years. i don't have an answer for the whole industry...but the fact that a few "hobby/sideline" beekeepers pointing these things out, doing things a different way, and talking about it are so threatening that the level of personal attack has reached the point it has here is very telling. the fact that "chemical free beekeeping" is the theme for eas next year is telling. you are all more than welcome to keep doing things they way you are doing them...i certainly won't stop you. if the microbes are not important...if the treatments do not have serious negative effects on the 'super-super organism'....if the current model and path being used by the industry is sustainable then keep doing it. but the feeling i get is that there is fear...fear that one "hobby" beekeeper in arizona, and a beekeeping couple with good research skills, good reasoning skills, a good understanding of the importance of the microbial culture to the health of the bees, just over a dozen hives, and a willingness to speak out have a solid basis for what they do and say. have it your way. the bees are all doing fine. the chemical controls are necessary and proper. beekeepers are having no real problems. the current system for how we grow and pollinate food works just fine, and there is nothing to improve. nothing that the beekeepers do should be held up to scrutiny. microbes are irrelevent, and need no consideration when treating the bees. i'll end here...i have to pack. i had the wisdom to book a hotel room that does not have high speed access, so i will not likely be posting again until thanksgiving or so...have a good turkey everyone (or tofurky if that's your thing). deknow **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 09:18:12 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Everything reminds Me of My Dog/cellsize In-Reply-To: <7BC8D34D4E504AB7BB3C2848469807AE@Aristotle> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Allen > _But_, I am reminded that Europeans tend to have a wider range of cell > sizes and access to some foundations with much larger cells than > Americans. I have always found that odd, but maybe the bees there or > some environmental factors there are inexplicably different? Yes, we do have bees that are different. We have strains and hybrids of A. m. mellifera that are physically larger and more bulkily built than occur in US (Most A. m. mellifera strains have been systematically culled in US so that only 3% A. m. mellifera genes exist in the US bee population)... http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/us_uk_dna.html The larger bees need and naturally produce larger cells. This is further complicated by the A. m. mellifera bee having an ability to inhabit a wider range of cell sizes than other races and so can survive well on almost any size of foundation that is supplied to it. There is an exception however, it seems that some strains of A. m. mellifera have difficulty with sizes smaller than 5.6 mm, these strains come from Russia (not Primorski) and are the reason I mentioned 5.6 mm in a previous post. > That is not to say that Americans have not made some big foundations, > but the ones I am aware of were intended to be an intermediate size > between worker and drone. The intermediate size has also occurred in UK, but because of the things mentioned above, such foundation was largely used by breeders of A. m. mellifera bees as brood foundation. The UK has a range of cell size in its comb, as in US, but that range is both larger and shifted upwards in size by about 0.2 mm when compared to the races than inhabit it. According to those that put credence on small cells influencing varroa numbers, that should mean that we are overrun by varroa, but this is not the case... Varroa is no bigger (or smaller) a problem in UK than in US. -- Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://melliferabees.net Email: dave.cushman@lineone.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 7.21/2.01 Son of ORAC M/c, Build 5.o1/2.o1 **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 09:22:24 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Genetic compatibility effects on caste determination In-Reply-To: <20081118.101045.11698.2@webmail04.dca.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Waldemar > I wonder if colonies favor some patrilines over others at different times of the year... As each patriline has its own set of characters and behaviours, those behaviours become more useful in some seasons than others so the 'usefulness' of a patriline will vary from month to month. -- Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://melliferabees.net Email: dave.cushman@lineone.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 7.21/2.01 Son of ORAC M/c, Build 5.o1/2.o1 **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 03:37:07 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: A Sustainable Commercial Model? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I feel our modern migratory beekeeping system tends to break this code by > spreading pests and diseases. We rationalize doing so by arguing that this > is the only practical way to feed the world. But as others have pointed > out, it is a style of beekeeping that is dependent on science to > continually throw us chemical life lines to avoid collapse. Well, this has turned out to be true. Will it continue to be? I think not. I hope not. The chemical lifelines are intended to be short-term measures to get the industry through to the time when bees can handle these pests and diseases with minimal chemical assistance and without a total collapse in the meantime. The use of chemicals, ironically, delays the ultimate resolution of the problems by maintaining stocks in the gene pool that have desirable characteristics but are susceptible, an effect which has both beneficial and deleterious effects. Will this time of reduced chemical dependence ever come? That is the question, and it seems that there are two channels by which that day is actually approaching. One is the natural selection pressure on bees to tolerate these problems, and the other is breeding programmes. We are increasingly seeing credible reports of feral bee comebacks, and new genetic techniques allow much more intelligent and targeted selection, greater accuracy, lower cost, and much shorter development times than even a decade ago. > The growers that finance this system are also very dependent on science to > fend off collapse. Because they have planted huge monocultures, their > crops are very susceptiable to evolving pests and parasites. I think that this is well understood and well studied. I also think that solutions may be emerging. Unfortunately some solutions may add new problems, as we see with the new insecticides which are supposed to be less harmful to the environment and humans, but which may be so ubiquitous and subtle that no one really knows what the effects are. > But don't you find it a little screwy that a beekeeper with 300 hives who > carefully avoids developing resistant varroa by alternating his mite > treatments, is considered an impractical dreamer? Having been that guy or something close, and having had to participate in making industry decisions for my province, I have to agree. However, on examining the issue, it became to me that the only alternative to permitting (almost) free bee movement was unenforceable regulation and a repressive regime where growth, innovation and economic activity was stifled. This would protect some current small operators, but severely handicap the major operators and young beekeepers, and discourage future growth and investment in the industry. We watched jurisdictions that attempted to control beekeepers' activities and saw that the result was destruction of beekeeping businesses and a decline in the industry overall, plus a lot of bad feelings. It was claimed, perhaps quite fairly, that more beekeepers were destroyed by the regulations than by the pests. We saw that wherever the government stepped in to limit beekeeper activity, some benefitted, but the total activity was reduced. The closure of the US/Canada border was a perfect example of a case where the regulation turned out to have more adverse effects than the pests did when we got them anyways -- for the Canadian industry as a whole -- even though many individuals benefitted). It was a boon for some, but proved to be an overall brake on an industry which had been growing 10% a year and has since stagnated, especially where regulation is most obvious. > And that our industry leaders are those who are totally dependendent on > science to come up with the next new mite strip? I think that is an overstatement, but not without some merit. The dependence on science I concede. The fact that science has been coming up with working chemical strips so far, while not delivering well accepted biological solutions -- yet -- is unfortunate. The problem is that chemicals tend to be quick, visible, uniform and predictable, while biological solutions tend to be slower, more variable, less predictable and harder to monitor. I also think those trying to breed resistance have been looking through the wrong end of the telescope and aiming for high resistance readings, rather than ways to reduce incidents of susceptibility. The difference is subtle, but very crucial to achieving effective control of pests by eliminating pockets of high infection which then spread throughout an operation and neighbourhood. At any rate, it is easy to see that things are screwy, but it is a lot harder to find anything better. I realize that it would not be so hard if one were in absolute control -- at least that is what many think -- but in the real world it is different, and imposing solutions usually does not work, at least in open societies. > The big weakness in our current system is that if science can't come up > with the next big cure, then we all go down the tubes, because thanks to > migration and world trade, we've now all got the same disease profile in > our hives. If science fails us and things do collapse maybe we should > consider going back to a policy of 'do no harm to your neighbour' If science fails us, then policy will be the least of our problems. Moreover, when trying to be Solomon, one soon learns that "doing no harm to anyone" is impossible. Society is a complex web of competing interests, and no matter who wins, someone loses. Trying to maximize and allocate the gains while minimizing, mitigating, and fairly allocating the losses is what makes policy-making so challenging. If there were only a way to make omelets without breaking eggs. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/ --- If you limit your choices only to what seems possible or reasonable, you disconnect yourself from what you truly want, and all that is left is a compromise. Robert Fritz **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 11:37:37 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Genetic compatibility effects on caste determination Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>'usefulness' of a patriline will vary from month to month For this reason I wonder if the colonies vary the patriline composition seasonally... I do see bee coloration varying somewhat through the seasons. This would be a very sophisticated adaptation to changing needs if it were true. Waldemar **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 06:58:02 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter L Borst Subject: Where are the genes? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In 1964, Walter Rothenbuhler proposed a two gene model to explain phenotypic variance in the remarkable behavior in which honey bee workers remove dead brood from their colonies. Rothenbuhler's model proposed that one locus controls the uncapping of brood cells containing dead pupae, while a second controls the removal of the cell contents. We show here, through molecular techniques and quantitative trait loci (QTL) linkage mapping, that the genetic basis of hygienic behavior is more complex, and that many genes are likely to contribute to the behavior. In our cross, we detected seven suggestive QTLs associated with hygienic behavior. Each detected QTL controlled only 9–15% of the observed phenotypic variance in the character. We expected to find two (Rothenbuhler 1964), or perhaps three (Moritz 1988), QTLs of major effect on hygienic behavior. However in our experiment we did not find any evidence for such genes. Instead we found that the behavior seems to be inherited in a more quantitative manner. Thus although our quantitative genetic analysis of repeatability and the QTL analysis confirm Rothenbuhler's findings that hygienic behavior has a strong genetic component (as expected by the success of selection for the character), we cannot confirm the existence of two genes of major effect that control hygienic behavior. Seven suggestive quantitative trait loci influence hygienic behavior of honey bees Keryn L. Lapidge · Benjamin P. Oldroyd ·Marla Spivak Naturwissenschaften (2002) 89:565–568 * * * When scientists opened up the human genome, they expected to find the genetic components of common traits and diseases. But they were nowhere to be seen. Although flummoxed by this missing heritability, geneticists remain optimistic that they can find more of it. "These are very early days, and there are things that are doable in the next year or two that may well explain another sizeable chunk of heritability," says Hirschhorn. There could be scarier and more intractable reasons for unaccounted-for heritability that are not even being discussed. "It's a possibility that there's something we just don't fundamentally understand," Kruglyak says. "That it's so different from what we're thinking about that we're not thinking about it yet." "You have this clear, tangible phenomenon in which children resemble their parents," he says. "Despite what students get told in elementary-school science, we just don't know how that works." The case of the missing heritability NATURE|Vol 456|6 November 2008 -- Peter L Borst Danby, NY USA 42.35, -76.50 http://picasaweb.google.com/peterlborst **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 07:32:18 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter L Borst Subject: Bacterial Probiotics Induce an Immune Response in the Honey Bee MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit deknow@netzero.net wrote: > i posted some links that did not support my claims. i posted these links after quite a bit of offlist pressure, after i had already _politely asked_ for patience, as we were in the middle of preparing 2 talks. I am sorry Dean. I certainly never meant to put undue pressure on you. It was a simple mistake I made in assuming that in preparing for this talk for six months that you would have your sources and research handy. Easy mistake to make. I never said you were barking up the wrong tree. Far from it. It's just that many outlandish claims have been presented on this forum as well as others. When you and Dee keep referring to the virtual avalanche of "new research" I can't help wanting to see it. I am one of the participants in the "Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology" The Vita web site is a crowning example of the type of PseudoScience so many of us oppose. Make unsupported claims based upon wild conjecture and take it to the bank. However, digging around their confusing web site, I found out they are using bacteria as a treatment for bee diseases. This is a novel approach, one that I hadn't heard of. Evidently the USDA is interested in this as well > To explore immune system activation in the honey bee, Apis mellifera L., larvae of four ages were exposed through feeding to spores of a natural pathogen, Paenibacillus larvae larvae, to cells of a diverse set of related nonpathogenic bacteria, and to bacterial coat components. ... It is proposed that nonpathogenic bacteria can be used as a probiotic to enhance honey bee immunity, helping bee larvae, and other life stages, survive attacks from pathogens in the field. "Bacterial Probiotics Induce an Immune Response in the Honey Bee (Hymenoptera: Apidae)" Jay D. Evans and Dawn L. Lopez USDA–ARS Bee Research Laboratory, BARC-East Building 476, Beltsville, MD 20705 The key difference is that the scientists reveal the extensive work they have done while Vita concentrates on outlandish claims while fishing for your money. I am sorry if this raises a red flag for me. I will try to be more patient in the future. pb **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 07:38:06 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: Varroa in ferals in Hawaii Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit James Fischer said: >One of the most famous cases of the "elimination of ferals" >was the Santa Cruz Island Reserve project, where Adrian Wenner >tried and tried to eliminate all the feral colonies so >as to return the island to an ecosystem that was 100% "native". James, If you had taken the time to read my post more carefully, I am specifically referring to the failed practice of elimination of ferals <<<>>> This tactic to contain varroa has never been successful. The example you are giving has nothing to do with this. >The attempt did not fail - it succeeded with a >little help from varroa. A little help? It would be better stated that Adrian had ‘allot of help from varroa’. Mans attempt did fail in this case, varroa succeeded. Joe **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 08:21:26 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill T Subject: Re: A Sustainable Commercial Model? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Why do we assume we can have a perfect world in beekeeping while we do not practice it ourselves in our own lives, when you consider health? Not one of us would ever let nature take its course with our own children. There will be a solution, just as there has been in medicine. Just look at cancer survival rates now compared to just ten years ago, much less 50 years ago when it was a death sentence. We certainly do not talk of a "chemical treadmill" with cancer treatments, when that is just what they are. It is never hard to talk about an ideal world. Just difficult to live it. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 09:19:22 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Peter_de_Bruyn_Kops?= Subject: Re: Genetic compatibility effects on caste determination Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>>'usefulness' of a patriline will vary from month to month >For this reason I wonder if the colonies vary the patriline composition >seasonally... I do see bee coloration varying somewhat through the >seasons. This would be a very sophisticated adaptation to changing needs >if it were true. It seems a stretch that queens could select sperm based on a seasonally-important trait. However, behavior and gene expression in adult bees are affected by environmental factors which include the behaviors and mix of bees from other patrilines in the hive (in addition to the obvious temperature, food and daylight factors). How fast a bee advances in maturity, and which tasks it performs and for how long, are known to be affected by hive population distribution across maturities and tasks. It seems probable that patrilines respond differently to these stimuli so some patrilines will tend to appear in higher concentrations in some task groups than others. Regarding seasonal color changes, I can think of several ways this could happen: bees' pigment production could be affected by environmental stimuli, long days could bleach field bee coloring, a higher ratio of house bees to field bees combined with sun bleaching could make the overall colony appear darker, sun angle when the beekeeper is looking in the hive, or coincidence. Most of my experience is with Carniolan-type bees. My working hypothesis is that they vary the ratio of house to field bees dramatically throughout the year and this accounts for their reputation for increasing population very rapidly in the spring. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 07:22:24 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: A Sustainable Commercial Model? In-Reply-To: <8c0381120811200521s17de8143v181193229452b4e9@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Bill, Speak for yourself here, for this is exactly what my Ed did, he walked the walk and talked the talk and when it came to treatments of chemicals or natural with propolis, milk and honey the old way............................he said he wouldn't talk if he couldn't walk and, I cryied, but he did and that is how he worked bees, and his own life, and lived...................till the end. And that is what I am following.......... Dee **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 07:42:36 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: Genetic compatibility effects on caste determination MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Most of my experience is with Carniolan-type bees. My working hypothesis > is that they vary the ratio of house to field bees dramatically throughout > the year This may be corroborated by the observed fact that during the main flow, every bee in broodless honey-filled boxes removed from a hive and set aside (the abandonment method), can find their way home within minutes. At other times of year, a portion of the bees will tend to stay with the boxes. I am assuming that those remaining bees have not yet oriented, and are still solely house bees. Of course, this is not rigorous proof. Scent may be a/the factor in finding the home hive. Scent following can can easily be demonstrated where the boxes are set to touch the main hive and the bees walk home, rather than fly, but, in the first instance, bees can be observed to lift off the abandoned box and fly fairly directly, with maybe a small circle or two, into the home hive. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/2000/diary072200.htm#Abandonment --- I have seen the future and it doesn't work. Robert Fulford **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 08:22:43 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Personal Attacks MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > i find it telling the level of personal attacks going on here. I'm sorry if you are experiencing ad hominem attacks. That should not be. On the other hand, I hope you are not so attached to your ideas that giving some of them a rigorous inspection seems like a personal attack. One of the conditions of posting on this list is acceptance that anything presented is going to be inspected and dissected by a diverse and critical international group of participants, some of whom are bound to disagree -- and very explicitly. > lots of words have been put in my mouth. That should not happen, but it happens to all of us sometimes. It is annoying, but unavoidable. Sometimes it is deliberate, but often it is the result of hasty reading, a paucity of reading comprehension, or limited reasoning skills. We are, as I said, a diverse group. > i don't have an answer for the whole industry...but the fact that a few > "hobby/sideline" beekeepers pointing these things out, doing things a > different way, and talking about it are so threatening that the level of > personal attack has reached the point it has here is very telling. I don't think "a few "hobby/sideline" beekeepers pointing these things out, doing things a different way, and talking about it" is so much threatening as predictable, self-promoting, intrusive, disruptively off-topic at times, incoherent sometimes -- and boring at others. Please understand that everyone here very much respects Dee, she has paid her dues. But, since she has set herself up as a paragon, she is going to have to stand scrutiny of her affairs and methods. Those who make no claims should not have to. It seems you, too, are claiming some expertise, so you fall under examination for your critical abilities as well as experience, and consistency of reasoning and practices. You cannot expect to ride in on her coattails. (Writing with all lower case would seem to indicate a disrespect for convention, BTW). > the fact that "chemical free beekeeping" is the theme for eas next year is > telling. Hey, hobby beekeepers and sideliners and idealists did not come up with that idea. It belongs to the entire beekeeping group and everyone considers it a motherhood issue, although some try to claim it for themselves. How and when we achieve it, how completely, and at what cost, though, is an issue forever at dispute. > you are all more than welcome to keep doing things they way you are doing > them...i certainly won't stop you. That is the sort of statement that demands someone knock the chip off, so if you keep saying such things, expect more of the same. Not from me, but there are many who consider such poppycock to be permission to knock you about. > ...the feeling i get is that there is fear...fear that one "hobby" > beekeeper in arizona, and a beekeeping couple with good research skills, > good reasoning skills, a good understanding of the importance of the > microbial culture to the health of the bees, just over a dozen hives, and > a willingness to speak out have a solid basis for what they do and say. That says it all. You have it wrong and don't know it. As I said, we all respect Dee, and some of us have spent a lot of time and effort visiting with her, debating with her, and some of us have adopted what we consider to be the best of her ideas. As for you, we only know what we see on the list, and people respond to that. I'm sure many wonder about you motives, especially give how you have just described yourself to a group that includes (mostly lurking) lifetime professional scientists. Anyhow, I hope that any attacks on the list will be on ideas and practices and not on people. I also hope that list members will not stand in the line of fire when their pet theories are under scrutiny. After all, why bring up and idea here, if the intent is not to get a critical review? allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/articles/fdnvsdrawn.htm --- When they discover the center of the universe, a lot of people will be disappointed to discover they are not it. Bernard Bailey **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 11:49:12 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_L_Borst?= Subject: Re: Genetic compatibility effects on caste determination Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >It seems a stretch that queens could select sperm based on a seasonally-important trait. Right, but bees can select which larvae to rear. This is demonstrated by the queenless colonies choosing which larvae to rear into queens, preferring certain bloodlines over others. It appears that they may favor their own sisters. Therefore, subfamilies could develop within the colony based upon which drones are present in the queen, but then certain subfamilies could assert domination by eating competitor's eggs and preferentially raising their own kin. A queen can lay far more eggs than a given colony can care for, and it is quite plausible that they could regulate the genetic make-up of the work force in this manner. >Regarding seasonal color changes, I can think of several ways this could >happen: bees' pigment production could be affected by environmental stimuli I agree, pigmentation can be affected by temperature, changing seasonally. pb **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 17:48:49 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: FW: The USA is in bad need of new genetics from abroad In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed In message , Robert Brenchley writes >That's how it's done in the >UK, where we have no significant queen breeding industry. LOL..thank you VERY much...... I don't suppose the 2000+ I raise each year, a lot of them for sale, as queens or heading new seasons nucleii, counts. Of course relative to the USA larger breeders you are correct, but against that we are a mere puddleduck of a country in the bee trade but we also seem to have a disproportionate amount to say for ourselves. > We still have to >cope with people incessantly importing queens, as people in the US >would have to >cope with neighbours buying in queens. I don't have a problem with this. There is a tendency, particularly among the smaller entities in terms of colonies, to assume, for their own reasons, that local = good, and far afield = bad. Over many years experience I find this is often wrong. Many good genetics have come from outside our shores, and the modified black bee prevalent today in many parts is what it is because of outside genetics becoming incorporated into the local strains over many many years. (In particular after IOW disease) I also do not worry about my neighbours buying in unsatisfactory stock, which HAS happened in large amounts, as this does not last long in our harsh environment and plethora of diseases and pests. > But you've got to start somewhere, >and I never cease to be surprised at the bees' capacity for maintaining a >strain without too much outcrossing. I think mating with drones from the home >apiary is a lot more important than we sometimes assume. If the drones in the area are of similar colouration you probably don't notice how much outcrossing goes on, even if the drone(s) involved are of a very different type. If someone moves a few really yellow Italians into the dark bee area you see some sporadic striping turn up in nearly all the young queens in varying amounts. Visually you need a really stark marker to show up what really is going on. I know what you mean about strain stability though, and any fresh import reverts to the local mean through the outcrossing to local drones over a very few generations. Sadly here that tends to mean a loss of vigour as well making it hard to build the real busters of colonies we need for the heather, and we can only get round that by selecting only the best of our own stock, plus adding a little bit of fresh genetics every few years (newest lot are some lovely black bees, gentle and vigorous, from the Baltic coast of Poland) and by not mating the virgins (other than when requeening a colony by a conventional split/reunite) near the apiary of their mother. Willy nilly use of unsuited genetics does not work and such entities usually don't hang around too long, and things get back to normal in a relatively short time. -- Murray McGregor **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 19:04:37 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: Personal Attacks In-Reply-To: <5F21D70CC80C427BABE0D8450E613808@Aristotle> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed In message <5F21D70CC80C427BABE0D8450E613808@Aristotle>, allen writes >One of the conditions of posting on this list is acceptance that >anything presented is going to be inspected and dissected by a diverse >and critical international group of participants, some of whom are >bound to disagree -- and very explicitly. Quite so Allen. It seems a sad characteristic of this movement that a sharp scrutiny of the method, and in particular the interpretation of the results of the method, is in itself interpreted as a personal attack. We are supposed to accept it is a success. Why? Because we are told it is. ( I guess we all have differing interpretations of what success actually is as it can be a conceptual entity rather than an empirical one with fixed measures.) To be blunt, I have NEVER seen these people attacked personally, but have seen acute sensitivity to criticism and scrutiny. >> i don't have an answer for the whole industry...but the fact that a >>few "hobby/sideline" beekeepers pointing these things out, doing >>things a different way, and talking about it are so threatening that >>the level of personal attack has reached the point it has here is very >>telling. I cannot see what deknow is getting at here. No way does anyone I know feel threatened by it or and I don't see the personal attacks either. >Please understand that everyone here very much respects Dee, she has >paid her dues. But, since she has set herself up as a paragon, she is >going to have to stand scrutiny of her affairs and methods. I have always agreed with this. I have watched deknows videos. I know what I think about what I see, and that my interpretation varies from the unquestionable success suggested in the narrative. But that can wait for another day. I am wary of saying what I think being taken personally and resolved myself never to get 'into it' with this group again. >Those who make no claims should not have to. This is one of the most irritating qualities of the small cell movement. Has been since day 1 when I got involved when Peter Borst came under attack several years back. Ask a relevant question (after all we are being instructed that this is the future) which gets to a difficult point and the tables get turned on you and the one making the claims demands that you prove your contrary point of view, even if you never held it, and just wanted sound information. >That is the sort of statement that demands someone knock the chip off, >so if you keep saying such things, expect more of the same. Not from >me, but there are many who consider such poppycock to be permission to >knock you about. I agree. I thought it an impudent and sarcastic remark. However there is a tone in some posts recently that read a bit that way, and several members are culpable and I do not blame anyone for responding in kind. If its a flame war then its one of the most polite flame wars I have seen. >>and a beekeeping couple with good research skills, good reasoning >>skills, a good understanding of the importance of the microbial >>culture to the health of the bees, just over a dozen hives, and a >>willingness to speak out have a solid basis for what they do and say. Fear? What fear? If I have any its for the fate of the bees of those who may be easily lead down a path that could be quite murderous for their colonies. Its their choice if they follow of course and I hope you make that abundantly clear. If I got such advice backed by impressive sounding credentials and my bees died I would be seeking legal redress. I would have to, I need to keep a roof over my family and food on the table. >That says it all. You have it wrong and don't know it. Have felt that for quite some time but never felt like getting involved. Its probably futile anyway and I guess all it proves is that its the quiet time of the year again and I don't have enough work to do. >After all, why bring up and idea here, if the intent is not to get a >critical review? Informed discussion. That's the term. Not ' this is THE way and no debate please.' All ideas here come under scrutiny. FGMO got it, and it had its 'this is the ultimate truth' adherants too to whom the developer was an unquestionable saviour. Without scrutiny where would it be now? How many colonies would have died needlessly? Scrutiny and direct surgical questioning are good. Its for the good of all, even for the person who may be way up the wrong street and although they don't know it then may actually be the better for it. Me? I am not proud and steal good ideas from anyone. Some things I have learned from fellow Bee-L members, about excellent equipment to go out and buy, about some management practices, and about a lot of bee health issues. The good stuff is out there to be picked up and run with, but its immersed in a sea of chaff. Two things seem apparent about all the good ideas that were worth adopting (I have tried some of the left field things too btw) is that they all came from mainstream beekeepers or from experienced scientists with no hidden agenda, and ALL suffered sharp scrutiny at some stage in their history. -- Murray McGregor **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 17:11:57 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "deknow@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Bacterial Probiotics Induce an Immune Response in the Hone y Bee Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit -- Peter L Borst wrote: >I certainly never meant to put undue pressure on you. you don't have to take any undue credit here peter, it was not to you i was referring. >..in preparing for this talk for six months that you would have your sources and research handy. ...and despite the fact that i said upfront i was swamped, and would post sources soon...and _asked_ for patience? i don't know how i could have expressed my situation more clearly...despite your assumptions. the talk on microbes is being presented (and largely researched) by my wife...she rarely posts here on bee-l. >It's just that many outlandish claims have been presented on this forum as well as others. please quote me if you think i've made outlandish claims >When you and Dee keep referring to the virtual avalanche of "new research" please attribute dee's statements to her, and mine to me...you will find that this was dee's claim, not mine. >The Vita web site is a crowning example of the type of PseudoScience so many of us oppose. yes...that was one cite, which you've criticized in 2 or 3 posts now? there were lots of other citations given. >...I found out they are using bacteria as a treatment for bee diseases. This is a novel approach, one that I hadn't heard of. which is why i posted it. Evidently the USDA is interested in this as well >Jay D. Evans and Dawn L. Lopez USDA–ARS Bee Research Laboratory, BARC-East Building 476, Beltsville, MD 20705 when jeff pettis spoke at our club in october, he mentioned that they were finding that probiotics work for bees in cages....but couldn't document any benefits in the field...perhaps because the microbial culture doens't operate in a cage. deknow (from the airport) **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 17:18:06 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Genetic compatibility effects on caste determination In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Peter > Right, but bees can select which larvae to rear. This is demonstrated by the > queenless colonies choosing which larvae to rear into queens, preferring > certain bloodlines over others. If they were doing this with worker brood there would be an awful lot of holes where brood had been eaten, and even if these were re-laid by the queen subsequent eating of eggs would cause yet more holes or at least ragged capping times. The workers would need to be skewed in terms of their patriline, in order that one subset of eggs could be favoured in the first place and we know that colonies with few patrilines are poorly equipped to do a good job. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://melliferabees.net Email: dave.cushman@lineone.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 7.21/2.01 Son of ORAC M/c, Build 5.o1/2.o1 **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 13:07:57 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter L Borst Subject: Fumagillin "comes from" stonebrood MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline How to make your own fumagillin Fermentation: 680 litres of an aqueous medium containing, weight per volume, glucose 6 %, corn 50 steep solids 2 %,, and calcium carbonate 0.5 %, are inoculated with spores of a fumagillin-producing strain of fumigatus and are incubated during 3 days at 24 C with aeration and stirring 200 litres of this inocu 55 lum are added to 470 litres of a medium at p H 5 0-5 5 containing (after addition of the inoculum), weight per volume, glucose 6 %, sodium nitrate 3 %, potassium dihydrogen phosphate, 0 1 %, potassium chloride O 05 %, 60 magnesium sulphate heptahydrate 0 001 %, ferrous sulphate heptahydrate 0 001 %, and yeast autolysate 0 04 % The mixture is contained in a fermenter fitted with an agitator and a sparger for aeration and is incubated 65 with agitation and aeration during 4 days at 24 C It is then filtered and the filtrate is estimated by ultra-violet absorption spectrophotometry to contain 4 1 grams of fumagillin per 100 litres 70 Isolation 18 litres of the filtered broth at p H 6 5 are stirred and about 250 grams of barium chloride are added gradually until there is no further precipitation 50 grams of 75 kieselguhr are then added and the mixture is filtered The filtrate is extracted with two successive 1 8 litre portions of butyl acetate. The total extract is extracted with three successive 3 6 litre portions of buffer solution 80 of p H 9 (containing per litre 3 3 grams of boric acid, 4 1 grams of potassium chloride and 0 92 gram sodium hydroxide) Phosphoric acid is added to the total buffer extract until the p H of the mixture is 5 It 85 is then extracted with three successive one litre portions of butyl acetate The combined butyl acetate extracts are dried over magnesium sulphate and evaporated to dryness under reduced pressure in an atmo go 90 763,482 763,482 sphere of nitrogen The yellow solid residue is crystallised from acetone and 0 37 gram of colourless crystals are obtained which contain 98 % of fumagillin as estimated by ultra-violet absorption spectrophotometry. When the process of the above Example is repeated using an equal volume of the same fermentation broth, but omitting from the sequence of operations the treatment of the broth with barium chloride, there is obtained 0 29 gram of colourless crystals estimated by ultra-violet absorption spectrophotometry to contain 93 % of fumagillin. [Don't try this at home] **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 10:46:15 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: A Sustainable Commercial Model? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ted: But don't you find it a little screwy that a beekeeper with 300 hives who= =20 carefully avoids developing resistant varroa by alternating his mite=20 treatments, is considered an impractical dreamer?Reply: Yes, and no, but alternating mite treatments is not the way, for it increases imbalance in the beehive, that actually in the long-run makes things worse,....... besides compunding internal contamination of beeswax, = and food the bees use. Also, what about contamination to one's self when treati= ng? =A0Yet, short term it will control mites. But do you want short term or long term control? If long term, then chemical free ways= are better, and more healthy for the bees, and yourself to, for not having to handle such things. And there are chemical free ways that work!! I might no= t like it, but=A0 LC can be worked chemical free though labor intensive, bu= t I=A0 don't consider it long term for make one mestake and you can crash. =A0However, . SC can be worked chemical free too, and to me very much less = labor intensive and less work for the bees also, but once set up it is long= term. It's just a matter of choice. Dee A. Lusby Using borrowed computer. =0A=0A=0A **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 10:30:03 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: Varroa in ferals in Hawaii In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > > >Jose's recent contribution though, gives us a hint what can happen in a > less limited environment with a larger gene pool. More than just a hint. It confirms yet again a typical time frame. Unmanaged A.m. capensis took 4-5 yrs to reach varroa tolerance. Unmanaged A.m. scutellata about 6-7 yrs. Unmanaged Europeans in various settings appear to take about 7-10 years. Randy Oliver **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 11:19:10 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: treatments, etc In-Reply-To: <20081119.104011.3191.0@webmail12.dca.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > > i find it telling the level of personal attacks going on here. Dean, I certainly hope that you don't feel that my posts fall under that category! I certainly debate sloppy logic, or inadequately supported claims, but have nothing but respect for those who take the time to research and improve our understanding of the honey bee and beekeeping. Randy Oliver **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 19:45:14 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter L Borst Subject: Advertising vs Science MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline A clear example of Advertising vs Science Ginkgo Biloba Extract is the extract of the leaves of the common ginkgo biloba tree. The standardized ginkgo biloba extract (GBE) requires a 50:1 ratio of leaves to extract, and extraction of GBE from the leaves is a very long process. The resulting extract contains ginkgo flavonglycosides (bioflavonoids) and terpene lactones as its active parts. Ginkgo Biloba Extract is used for several purported benefits include supporting mental acuity, circulation, and eye health, and for help in addressing age-related memory decline, ringing in the ear and low mood. * * * The largest and longest independent clinical trial to assess ginkgo biloba's ability to prevent memory loss has found that the supplement does not prevent or delay dementia or Alzheimer's disease, researchers are reporting. "We were disappointed," said Dr. Steven T. DeKosky, dean of the School of Medicine at the University of Virginia and the principal investigator. "We were hopeful this would work. If this was really a powerful effect, we would have seen something that would have at least inched its way toward statistical significance," Dr. DeKosky said. "If you're in your mid-70s and want to take this drug to protect yourself from developing the disease, my comment is: It doesn't work. " -- pb **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 09:21:35 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: A Sustainable Commercial Model? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > If I had/have my way organic beekeeping would be ZERO treatments and NO > artificial feeds, This is a motherhood issue, and not just for 'organic beekeeping' whatever that might be defined to be. No person among us, except maybe those working for chemical companies, wants to have to treat or feed their bees. The simple fact is that most, unless they are independently wealthy, very lucky, or just plain foolhardy, have to compromise and do one, the other, or both. Sometimes, at least. > I admit I am hardheaded also, promoting linebreeding more and more, and > modified outbreeding to acclimitize colonies back to local/regional living > again. In that point, you seem to be pretty mainstream, if I understand your somewhat idiosyncratic wording. > On this I will not give in for in looking at what is happening I cannot > see any better long-term solution. I see no problem with small to normal > sized beeyards of 10-60 hives in a given area, but I do see a problem with > large staging areas as done in wholesale large migratory outfits to the > detriment of the honeybees so put there fwiw. Again, nobody -- including those who cannot figure out any better way to get the job done -- will disagree, but sometimes it is necessary. > Further, honeybees set up in colonies mimicing nature do not swarm as seen > today in most beekeepers yards Bees that are strong swarm if the conditions merit. That is how they reproduce. Bees that are weak, usually don't. I recall having seen a swarm in one of your yards on one of my visits in January, BTW, and it looked like a pup swarm... > with hodpodged comb positioning, but that is something many here should be > aware of by now with pov from me too. Does anybody who makes a living from bees or science give this any credence? Has anyone done a controlled study? > As fpr large percentage of colonies dying each year............well: it > goes in cycles and for the most part the colonies are healthy and strong > if let to grow up from tonka toys size used as standard hives today. But > in saying this where drought and fire and other come into play problems > can arise for 1 to 3 to 5 years and you learn to roll with the bees Yup, that is beekeeping all right. Some people still make a very good living, usually by adapting to and exploiting events, rather than fighting the trend. > following them and help without overdoing, which again to me means no > treatments or artificial feeds in hives, for stores can be moved around > manually and is nothing hard for clean beekeepers to learn, I think you are saying that people need to do things the hard way and -- for principle only -- avoid measures that are proven to reduce effort and risk when used judiciously. > for if I can do it going on 62 as a poor old beekeeper woman then see no > problem with the men. Some may wish to follow your example, but most do not. Many consider it a dead end and have pointed this out to me. Others see it as the future. Who is right? Only your accountant knows. > Recently it was said I was not commercial but yet I keep about 700 hives > and anticipate increasing this coming year. Yes, I said that. I also said that I think you may be the world's biggest hobbyist. 700 hives and increasing is a mighty big hobby farm. One thing you have never revealed -- AFAIK -- to your acolytes or here, is the economics of your operation, specifically the return on capital and labour, and the long-term operating profit situation, and that, in the end is the most important feature in any enduring business. (Commercial beekeeping is a farming business, or it is not, by definition, 'commercial'). >From what I have seen, most followers are not too practical or knowledgeable in business matters, but an enterprise that burns capital is not very promising for someone planning to invest time and savings into it, and can hardly be recommended to those beekeepers who are currently making a profit. > Haven't made much honey this year >It is just so terrible. > I have bees, they are strong and looks great for next year > So been working coloines back up and is it a sustainable commercial model? Only if you can get a positive cash flow and return to capital and labour out of it, averaged over a past five-year period. That is the acid test. > Well I am property zoned 100% commercial agric, have all those bills to > pay making no money I am truly sorry to hear that. I wonder what it would take to turn a profit. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/Lusby/ --- Drive thy business or it will drive thee. Benjamin Franklin (1706 - 1790) **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 20:05:20 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Ames Subject: Re: Personal Attacks Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit It is also widely known that Beesource.com and the yahoo organic beek list are more receptive to less rigid discussions about topics like small cell and faith based beekeeping. If people wish to make those claims here its pretty much given they will be thrashed for lack of references but they persist anyhow. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 18:38:35 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: A Sustainable Commercial Model? In-Reply-To: <13EC0CA5BAD24F008553ACAE084F5A13@Aristotle> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Allen: Bees that are strong swarm if the conditions merit. That is how they reproduce. Bees that are weak, usually don't. I recall having seen a swarm in one of your yards on one of my visits in January, BTW, and it looked like a pup swarm...Reply: True, strong colonies swarm, but not as many see today 1-2-3 times a year IMPOV, and weak don't unless running/absconding away from bad conditions which I think many are seeing. As for the pop swarm, I took it as a last minute supercedure and a few workers going out with queen and accompanying her to make sure she returned and this certainly is written about in literature as being seen. continuing: Does anybody who makes a living from bees or science give this any credence? Has anyone done a controlled study? Reply; Yes, since writing and doing the presentation have had many out to see for selves, and some from Europe I would call capable of making a living from beekeeping. But, as for controlled study? ................here we go again, for where is the money for it, for short term quickie won't work here for seeing over the life of a normal halthy laying queen in a hive, say 3 years, and with a full beeyard or more to verify with. continuing: I think you may be the world's biggest hobbyist. 700 hives Reply: Your opinion, but still 300 plus is commercial in USA unless criteria changed for noting. Continuing: Only if you can get a positive cash flow and return to capital and labour out of it, averaged over a past five-year period. Reply: You mean I pay my bills year to year and show profit every 5th which sounds average for agric doing? Last profit was 2004 with S. Korea and two sea containers. Now when will next one be????? Geeh, wonder if my paying bills will average out that way? Guess we'll have to wait and see Allen...How about you by the way? You still got bees, or did you sell out or how you doing for your 5 year run? Dee **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 22:05:09 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Marron Subject: Advertising vs Science In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>>>>> trial to assess ginkgo biloba's ability to prevent memory loss has found that the supplement does not prevent or delay dementia or Alzheimer's disease, researchers are reporting. <<<<<<<< I accidently have an opinion on this. I came into some Ginko Balboa a few years ago and since I had no use for it I gave it to a friend who was a vitamin enthusiast. In short order, the whites of his eyes turned red. Oops! He was on blood thinners. Ginko is a blood thinner. They added up. I'm lucky he didn't have a bleeding incident. Blood thinners are often given to folks with hardening of the arteries to allow the blood to circulate; It needs to circulate to the brain as well. The brain needs half of all the blood pumped by the heart. It's hard to believe that it wouldn't function better with the increased blood. MDs correct me. I don't need studies, just a few friends. Relating to bees. Sometimes the anecdotal evidence is more important to listen to than the hard science. Dick Marron **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 08:13:02 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Murray McGregor Subject: European Resolution MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed Not many will be aware of this but a few weeks back three of us (commercial beekeepers, two from UK and one from France) visited Brussels for a meeting related to the health problems and viability issues of the beekeeping sector. All three of us spoke to this meeting and our input was well received. The meetings were widely reported on tv and in the press in the UK at least. All my friends who know me found it funny as it was the first time in years they had seen me in a suit other than for weddings and funerals! The group we were talking to, which included key figures in the Agriculture committee, officials with expertise in the subject, and one remarkeable MEP, Astrid Lulling from Luxembourg. Took on board all the things we were saying. My UK friend spoke about marketing and viablility, my French friend spoke at length on the pesticides issues, and I spoke about stress, climate, monocultures, resistant varroa and the effects these things hitting in combinations have on the bees. Other key figures also had other things they wanted in like the GM issue and the problems of imported honey containing diseases. We three have no part in adding the GM and AFB parts, and in fact I am not completely at ease with them as I feel the latter in particular could be used as little more than a trade barrier as EU honey is not to be subject to the same rigours. However, I digress. A resolution was prepared by Astrid Lulling and passed the agriculture committee unanimously. Yesterday it went before the full European Parliament and passed by a huge majority. The press release is one the rather long link below. I have widened the page to stop it wrapping but don't know if it will appear on list that way. http://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/expert/infopress_page/032-42550-322-11 -47-904-20081119IPR42549-17-11-2008-2008-false/default_en.htm The ecological recovery zones are *mooted* at this stage to be 1 to 2% of all arable farms which will be planted in bee forage. Taken as a package this could be great for us all in the EU over the years to come. -- Murray McGregor **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 00:03:19 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Steve_Noble?= Subject: Advertising vs Science Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit “Ginkgo Biloba Extract is used for several “PUPORTED” benefits include supporting mental acuity, circulation, and eye health, and for help in addressing age-related memory decline, ringing in the ear and low mood.” I’m not sure that this is a good example of advertising in the sense that you are trying to show. On the face of it, it seems like a reasonable statement of facts to me. It doesn't actually say that Ginkgo extract works for the things it is apparently sometimes used for. I know what you mean though. But I’ll bet you could find better examples of obfuscating scientific information with a promotional agenda. Even examples that are more closely related to beekeeping. Who knows, maybe even right here in the archives of this list. Steve Noble **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 01:13:10 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Stan Sandler Subject: Re: Fumagillin "comes from" stonebrood In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > are inoculated with spores of a fumagillin-producing strain of > fumigatus and are incubated So does this strain of fumigatus come from stonebrood Peter? Regards Stan **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 23:27:51 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: The USA is in bad need of new genetics from abroad In-Reply-To: <2CFC85974EF54835ACE14DEBDC2F0A17@Aristotle> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit in particular cases there may be huge differences, and they are > well known in commercial circles. Right Bob? Exactly right! In commercial beekeeping one needs to choose his queens wisely. All have their good and bad points. Some queen producers put out very poor quality queens on a regular basis. Price has little to do with the queens you get as to quality. Also as Allen pointed out you might go several years with queens from a queen producer and then get a batch which will not winter or produce honey. I never put all my eggs in one basket by using a single queen source. I looked at the largest test group of queens sold in the U.S. I have ever seen in one place last January in Florida. A forty acre field was lined with fifty five gallon barrels on which each had a hive . Each group of hives had hives headed with queens from a particular queen producer. One group stood out from the others. So queens were ordered the next year from the queen producer. We were not disappointed but as Allen said we could have received a bad batch. The first queens out the gate are always suspect. The next batch are usually better mated. The queen is the most important insect in the hive and good queens do not cost but pay dividends. Actually with the costs of maintaining a hive throughout the year ( meds, feed & labor) queens are one of the lowest costs. However unlike the Adee's and the Brown's which requeen all hives every year I still keep queens two years and (like Brother Adam) believe queens produce better in the second year (but are swarmy so precautions need taken over first year queens). Giving the second year queen room to lay ( not foundation but drawn comb ) is essential. Make use if a surprise flow starts supers are in place so the bees do not plug the brood area with nectar as a second year queen will hit the trees in a heartbeat if happens. For me I have a hard time putting a hive tool to a queen in her second season but many commercial beeks do not. I mark & use marked queens these days so I have an idea of age or if the queen has been superceded. Unless part of a test I do cull third year production queens. My experience has been problems with yards with third year queens but others may have different experience. I recall Murray saying he has had luck with older queens. bob **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 09:45:20 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: European Resolution In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Murray & All > it was the first time in years they had seen me in a suit other > than for weddings and funerals! I have never seen Murray in a suit and I don't think he has seen me wearing one, I am glad that he and the others concerned took the trouble and made the the trip. the vote by the way was... The resolution was adopted by... 485 votes in favour 13 votes against 5 abstentions. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://melliferabees.net Email: dave.cushman@lineone.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 7.21/2.01 Son of ORAC M/c, Build 5.o1/2.o1 **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 06:04:20 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill T Subject: Law of the Survivor MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I posted about my Law of the Survivor long ago, but recent events have hit home with me. My Law of the Survivor is: Only the living give testimonials,. That hit me strongly when I researched options to treat my Malignant Melanoma five years ago. I was amazed at the literally thousands of "cures" for cancer on websites. Most were selling things to cure it and all had glowing testimonials from those who were cured. I knew some people who decided to go with holistic treatments and all died. And it dawned on me that the dead cannot let you know that the treatment did not work. Only those for whom the treatment worked could speak (assuming they were telling the truth). I found an anecdotal correlation between stinging myself for arthritis and the control of the Melanoma and have posted about that here on the BeeL. With my background in science, I saw that there is a correlation between the immune system, bee stings and the fact that Melanoma is treated by boosting the immune system. Also, there was another beekeeper, who is a patient of my dermatologist, who had exactly the same results- bee stings and cancer in check. I always said to people that my findings were anecdotal because it was not backed by any good studies. But I easily could have been a tout for bee stings as a cure for Malignant Melanoma.Instead I noted that there seemed to be some correlation and that was the immune system. Recently, Aussie scientists found that about 25% of those who have Malignant Melanoma which spreads to the lymph nodes, as mine did, survive because of their genetic makeup. The rest die.So much for anecdotal evidence of bee stings and it being a way to control Melanoma.Science is more dispassionate and cruel. I had no magic bullet. The stings may have helped my own system along and made it work better (interferon helps in about 10% of MM cases by boosting the immune system but kills your thyroid gland. Which is why I opted for bee stings- save my thyroid and still boost my immune system). But the real reason I survived is I picked the right parents. This does have a bearing on beekeeping. Murray's comment on FGMO brought back a flood of memories. There were "studies" that proved it worked and those that did not believe were castigated with the standard comment "I would rather believe my eyes than science". But people like Allen, Murray and others pushed for outside proof. Every outside study showed FGMO did not work as advertised. One study, in the south, conclusively proved it but those who ran the study were condemned.. "They did not test it correctly." One of the outcomes was the true believers in FGMO set up a new website to get away from the questions on the BeeL. That was Beesource, On that site you could read testimonial after testimonial on how effective FGMO was in controlling mites. (Another of my Laws- Anecdotal evidence trumps science every time.) Posts from the FGMO group on the BeeL were met with questions and requests for proof which were met with thermonuclear blasts.. It got so hot that Aaron had to shift the BeeL to a moderated group. Talk about personal attacks. The site today is mild compared to the FGMO flame wars. I tried FGMO and found it wanting. (I tried about every new fad to test them as I was the editor of our State newsletter and wanted to keep my readers form doing dumb things- so I did them. Still do.). Same with small cell. Or putting Hall's mentholyptus in the hive to control Tracheal. Did not work.. It is not that those of us who question and want studies are against solutions to Varroa and all the assembled pathogens out there, We just want more than anecdotal evidence. My anecdotal evidence of bee stings and my survival from Malignant Melanoma was wrong even though the evidence convinced me it was right. I see the same things in the beekeeping world. If there is A and add B and see C then it is a valid equation. On the face, it would seem to be obviously true. But the problem is usually that the actual equation is A+B+D+F+Z=C. Classic in this was the fact that the FGMO trials included counting mite drops by using Apistan! In essence the mites were being controlled by the counting method, not by FGMO. I often meet people who are "organic" and are successful, but when I question them they are using oxalic, formic, wintergreen, thymol or any other "it is not a pesticide because it is found in nature" chemical to control mites. With the same breath, they decry the "chemical treadmill" that the commercial beekeepers are on.(I have also met "organic" beekeepers who used Apistan and cumophose.) I have yet to meet anyone who controls mites with no treatment or hive manipulation (drone trapping). I have read about them here on the BeeL, but anyone can say anything here with no proof at all. I apologize for the length, but that is what happens when you wake up an hour early. Bill Truesdell (Standard disclaimer- I practice organic gardening and only treat my bees with Oxalic in the fall, except last year when I decided to go with no treatment and lost everything. .Another dumb experiment.) Bath, Maine **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 07:49:08 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Peter_L_Borst?= Subject: Re: Advertising vs Science Comments: To: Steve Noble Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Steve It all hinges on the meaning of "purported"? I know and you know that it's a wiggle word, but does the average customer know? Maybe they think it means hard evidence. But the point is: in the advertising world, believing is all they ask. The scientist even said he *wanted* to believe, but couldn't because the facts didn't fit the claims. pb **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 13:07:16 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: European Resolution In-Reply-To: <49268330.20309@lineone.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed In message <49268330.20309@lineone.net>, Dave Cushman writes >I have never seen Murray in a suit and I don't think he has seen me >wearing one, I am glad that he and the others concerned took the >trouble and made the the trip. LOL Dave, quite right too..............neither of the formal OR birthday variety! ( Yikes, what a horrible thought!) Did you see it on the tv? The day after it was widely on breakfast programming in the UK, and lots of folk phoned to say they had seen it. Btw, somewhere around these Celtic fringes there is a folk band called the 'Fierce Beardies'. This evokes images in my mind of a fair proportion of the audience we both see each year at Stoneleigh. A suit there will only arouse suspicion that you are going to try to fleece them! >485 votes in favour >13 votes against >5 abstentions. > Pretty resounding eh? Now remains to be seen what happens to the high ideals once the civil servants and the bean counters get a grip on it. -- Murray McGregor **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 14:04:39 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: European Resolution MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Murray wrote: >485 votes in favour >13 votes against >5 abstentions. Certainly good news, but I would love to know who voted a against or abstained - and why. Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers at stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 14:43:35 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: The USA is in bad need of new genetics from abroad In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed In message , Bob Harrison writes >My experience has been problems with yards with third year queens but >others may have different experience. I recall Murray saying he has had >luck with older queens. Hi Bob, You are correct in what you say but really its a bit like comparing apples and pears. I can get queens going strong third year (even occasionally fourth in exceptions) because if you look over the lifetime of the queen she will have done a lot less work than your 2 year queens. Our bees winter quite small, and only get into their laying stride in the latter half of April, building rapidly throughout May, and if conditions permit (they slow right down in dearths) spend around of 3 months in full lay. In the warmer poly type hives this can stretch out to four months. Thats it. Any queen doing a 6 or more month season is going to burn out sooner and be 'old' earlier than ours. My experience is probably a local curiosity and not relevant for warmer climates and for constant rapid laying bees that do not curtail brood rearing when dearths threaten. I would expect that in Missouri a third year queen going strong and not starting requeening preparations would be a rarity. Even here a sizeable number of those, and almost all fourth year ones, will supercede when coming under pressure. -- Murray McGregor **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 21:08:13 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: A Sustainable Commercial Model? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > As for the pop [pup?] swarm, I took it as a last minute supercedure and a > few workers going out with queen and accompanying her to make sure she > returned and this certainly is written about in literature as being seen. Maybe. I wondered at the time if it was one of those small AHB invasion swarms -- "and this certainly is written about in literature as being seen" -- but that is maybe just my cynical nature. > > Does anybody who makes a living from bees or science give this any > > credence? Has anyone done a controlled study? > since writing and doing the presentation have had many out to see for > selves, and some from Europe I would call capable of making a living from > beekeeping. OK. If so, I'm sure they won't mind being named and giving testimony if asked. We're waiting -- patiently. > But, as for controlled study? ................here we go again, for where > is the money for it, for short term quickie won't work here for seeing > over the life of a normal halthy laying queen in a hive, say 3 years, and > with a full beeyard or more to verify with. What you cannot measure, you cannot know. If it is so important and so obvious an effect, it should be a cinch to prove. Or maybe we need to take it on faith? Why should we do that? > > I think you may be the world's biggest hobbyist. 700 hives > Your opinion, but still 300 plus is commercial in USA unless criteria > changed for noting. Says who? I know that the IRS thinks differently. Reasonable expectation of profit is the criterion I have heard. A lot of beekeepers do not wish to raise the issue, though. >> Only if you can get a positive cash flow and return to capital and >> labour out of it, averaged over a past five-year period. > You mean I pay my bills year to year and show profit every 5th which > sounds average for agric doing? Nope, not quite that simple. Net _operating_ income from beekeeping, _averaged_ over any five year span must be positive -- after return on capital and labour. Not just cash flow, or totals including extraordinary income. > Last profit was 2004 with S. Korea and two sea containers. Now when will > next one be????? Geeh, wonder if my paying bills will average out that > way? Guess we'll have to wait and see Which size? http://www.freightraders.co.nz/containerspecs.html If the large ones, that would be almost 150 lbs per hive, which is not bad if from one crop, but I had containers that took 40 drums, so that would be less, and you did not say from how many crop years. Anyhow, good question. I don't know. Maybe you are making good money, but it has not appeared that way from what you have told. > Allen...How about you by the way? You still got bees, or did you sell out > or how you doing for your 5 year run? Actually, very well, thank you for asking. After I gave up quixotic idealistic notions some decades back, and got with the programme, we did fine. I was probably as nutty as anyone, starting out, having been influenced by respected writers who made more money by writing books than from bees. All my reading of the literature proved no substitute for a few hours spent talking to successful commercial beekeepers. We did sell out, starting in 2001, since we had grown to the point where we could see that we would have to invest a lot of money to meet increasingly tough standards. Good help was getting harder to find and keep, and we were getting too old to write that investment off over the next fifteen years. Besides, my wife and business partner had had enough and wanted to pursue her art. Otherwise, I'd still be at it. That having been said, I miss the fun -- and the regular income. More questions? Ask away. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ --- Where is there dignity unless there is honesty? Cicero (106 BC - 43 BC) **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 15:06:51 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "deknow@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Law of the Survivor Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit -- Bill T wrote: >I often meet people who are "organic" and are successful, but when I question them they are using oxalic, formic, wintergreen, thymol or any other ... I have yet to meet anyone who controls mites with no treatment or hive manipulation (drone trapping). I have read about them here on the BeeL, but anyone can say anything here with no proof at all. bill, you are welcome to come down to massachusetts some time and see. we use nothing inside the hive, do not use drone trapping (and have plenty of drone brood by way of foundationless). whether or not we are "successful" really depends on the definition of "success". deknow **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 10:14:04 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_L_Borst?= Subject: Re: Fumagillin "comes from" stonebrood Comments: To: Stan Sandler Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Fri, 21 Nov 2008 01:13:10 -0400, Stan Sandler wrote: >So does this strain of fumigatus come from stonebrood Peter? I don't know where it came from originally. The whole aspergillus thing is extremely complex since aspergillus spp cause severe illness in humans as well as other organisms. Pulmonary aspergillosis The condition was first described by Hughes Bennett in 1842. The early records of such infection were typically of infections taking hold in patients who already had suffered substantial lung damage from tuberculosis, but in the 1890s, several cases had been documented where it seemed that aspergillus was the primary infection: aspergillus as the cause of the lung disease, not an infection taking hold in an already diseased lung (Wahl & Erickson, 1928). By 1928, there were fifty-four cases covered in medical literature. see: http://www.aspergillus.org.uk/index.html **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 15:45:52 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: European Resolution/Queen methods In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Murray > Yikes, what a horrible thought! That is too much to contemplate for a civilised discussion :-) > Did you see it on the tv? Not at first hand, but I suspect there are/will be some video links lurking on the Irish List. > Pretty resounding eh? Now remains to be seen what happens That is the bit that bothers me... High ideals and tight purse strings. But to return to our beekeeping remit, you raise 2 or 3 thousand queens a year, what percentage are raised by deliberate queen rearing methods as opposed to those generated as a result of colony manipulations like splitting ? -- Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://melliferabees.net Email: dave.cushman@lineone.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 7.21/2.01 Son of ORAC M/c, Build 5.o1/2.o1 **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 10:58:58 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Personal Attacks MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'll beg indulgence, and continue a thread of marginal value, as I've been reading these other forums for years, and can provide historical perspective. I have one nugget of useful beekeeping information at the end, in an attempt to satisfy convention. > It is also widely known that Beesource.com and the yahoo organic beek > list are more receptive to less rigid discussions about topics like > small cell and faith based beekeeping. That's not the case at all. Both groups are very rigid bastions of "faith-based beekeeping", dominated by a tiny number of self-proclaimed high priests who tolerate little else EXCEPT faith-based beekeeping dogma. Both groups were created specifically to continue to discuss beekeeping practices that had been thoroughly discussed (and discredited) here. When the posts to Bee-L became repetitive and shrill, those posts were not approved by the moderators, and they created their own groups, crying "censorship". As the second longest-standing member of BeeSource (since 2001) and a charter member of Dee's organic list, I can say with authority that any attempt to introduce ideas that contradict certain dogmas into their discussions is treated as openly hostile to their raison de etre, and gets one "thrashed", one's posts are edited/vandalized/censored, and one is forced to attempt to deal with vocal people who are openly hostile to education, experience, practical knowledge, and non-dogmatic thought. Dee has overt "forum rules" that openly prohibit any discussion of any approach to beekeeping other than her personal definition of "organic". BeeSource makes the classic error of defining "number of posts" as an indicator of expertise, rather than what it is, an indicator of free time spend "posting". > If people wish to make those claims here its pretty much given > they will be thrashed for lack of references The reverse is actually the case. Both of the other groups are openly hostile to the "bigger tent" approach of expecting everyone to maintain the same standards of "reasonable speculation", "evidence for claims", and "rational discourse". While these other groups have an inherent cognitive bias, any idea, no matter how implausible it might seem, is at least given a fair hearing here. Ideas presented here are subjected to close examination, and often the critiques can be scathing. (I myself am a purveyor of some of the more blistering critiques of fuzzy thinking.) But no one is openly censored, and no dogma is assumed as "true" as a precondition. (The trick is to bang the ideas together, and see which breaks first. Simple.) > but they persist anyhow. And this is the compelling proof that even they realize that Bee-L is a forum that is more legitimate than their own dogmatic forums. The persistent attempts to re-introduce what has been covered before (and been found wanting) here on Bee-L is clear evidence that they crave the approval of the "bigger tent" and seek to win the acceptance of the more rigorous examination of Bee-L. Despite the creation of their own private "Gilligan's Islands" of beekeeping, where science and the daily reality can be ignored at whim, they know that they have exiled themselves, and are voluntary castaways, isolated from the mainstream. I think it is hilarious that Dean ("Deknow") posted his plaintive pleas about "personal attacks" here on Bee-L, when Dee Lusby herself recently had to paste Dean's ears back in public on her "organic" list over certain comments he had for me. The reason that Dean was so angry at me was that I had mentioned the lab results Dee had sent me about her massive Nosema losses. Turns out that the losses were being kept "secret" from the members of the "organic" list, and I had inadvertently let the cat out of the bag. Clearly, even very basic facts are verboten in some forums. We can thus conclude that "drinking the Kool-Aid" is not an effective control method for Nosema ceranae. Sadly, this is the only nugget of information of value to beekeeping in this thread, but it is a crucial and very basic concept that can only be voiced on Bee-L. jim fischer ( A Bee-L subscriber since his e-mail address was "att!research!jim", proving that he's been around longer than nearly everyone else ) **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 11:19:27 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill T Subject: Re: A Sustainable Commercial Model? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > Nope, not quite that simple. Net _operating_ income from beekeeping, > _averaged_ over any five year span must be positive -- after return on > capital and labour. Not just cash flow, or totals including extraordinary > income. If you keep losing money over that span, the US IRS tends to look on it as a hobby But, any good accountant can help you through that wicket. You are still losing money, just looks better on paper. My wife is an artist, so I know. My brother-in-law has run several businesses. I consider them hobbies because he is wealthy and can afford to lose lots of money. At dinner one evening he mentioned that one had actually made 50K that year, until it was pointed out that he had to give the business $100k earlier that year. Did not matter to him- he made some money and that, to him, was what was important. He could afford to lose that much for 20 years before it became obvious to him that he was actually losing money. It would be nice if that did not apply to beekeepers, but we had a very long and productive exchange long ago (in the archives) on how to accurately measure your profit. A good businessman knows exactly what the business costs and what he is really taking home no matter what the number of colonies.Some beekeepers have no idea but just look in their pocket at the end of the year. Bill Truesdell: Standard disclaimer- I am a hobby beekeeper, but my colonies still are cheaper to maintain than a dog, and the bee's output is much more pleasant. A fact I point out to beginning beekeepers. Bath, Maine **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 08:51:35 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: Law of the Survivor MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> I often meet people who are "organic" and are successful, but when I >> question them they are using oxalic, formic, wintergreen, thymol or any >> other ... I have yet to meet anyone who controls mites with no treatment >> or hive manipulation (drone trapping). I have read about them here on the >> BeeL, but anyone can say anything here with no proof at all. > bill, you are welcome to come down to massachusetts some time and see. we > use nothing inside the hive, do not use drone trapping (and have plenty of > drone brood by way of foundationless). whether or not we are "successful" > really depends on the definition of "success". Seeing as you asked -- sort of -- 'success' on this list usually means you have done what you promote for five years or so and not had a wreck or had to blink. Regularly, we have people show up enthusiastically and insistently pumping the latest and greatest idea and/or denigrating proven techniques. One size fits all, they claim! Often they are quite insistent and claim great results. A year or three later they fall silent and it turns out they lost all their bees, or moved on to a 'newer and better' idea. We have the same sort of thing up here in Canada with the proponents of maintaining border closure. They insist we can all be self-sufficient. After all they are, and everyone else should be like them. Guess what, they eventually have a wreck and are really glad that the people they fought tooth and nail have ensured that they can get replacement stock. Not saying you are one of those short-term successes. You may have things going for you like microclimate and other factors that cannot be counted on. You also may not currently have neighbours who bring surprises. Maybe you will have long-term success, but the odds are against you. Good luck. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/pix/ --- The best measure of a man's honesty isn't his income tax return. It's the zero adjust on his bathroom scale. Arthur C. Clarke (1917 - ) **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 09:01:32 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: Law of the Survivor In-Reply-To: <20081121.100651.5175.0@webmail13.dca.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > -- Bill T wrote: ... I have yet to meet anyone who controls > mites with no treatment or hive manipulation (drone > trapping). I have read about them here on the BeeL, but > anyone can say anything here with no proof at all. Even the proof hinges on one thingā€¦ ā€˜Trustā€˜! I donā€™t use any treatments or hive manipulation to control varroa, in fact, I donā€™t even bother monitoring varroa. Now that is not to say I donā€™t have any losses due to varroa. I do have sometimes 0% and occasionally as high as 5% percent of my colonies crashing from varroa in September and October in any given year. And winter kills usually range from 5% to as high as 20%, a mixture of causes ranging from varroa related, starvation, and small clusters. ā€¦But that is good enough success rate for me in exchange for no drugs in the hives. As far as This is true. BUT one will NEVER believe ANY proof without trust! I tell my customers that I donā€™t use any varroa controls. They donā€™t ask for proof, because they know me, and trust me. But they are welcome to ā€œgo somewhere elseā€ if they donā€™t trust me, or believe me. I as well, tell beekeepers that I do not use any varroa controls, and they are welcome to ask any questions or investigate any way they choose. But if they are requiring proof, I donā€™t know what proof I could EVER give that will satisfy any beekeeper that refuses to trust. Therefore, it all boils down to mater of trust. If one doesnā€™t trust someone, donā€™t listen, ā€œgo somewhere elseā€. Joe Hints to Farmers- Keep plenty of cows and bees, as the surest way of having milk and honey. Confine your cows with a good fence but let your bees go at large. -American Farmer, 1831 **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 17:23:12 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Gavin Ramsay Subject: Re: European Resolution/Queen methods MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Dave (and Murray, and All) > I suspect there are/will be some video links lurking on the Irish List. No video links, but you can see the tabled document, a transcript of the debate, the outcome of the vote and text adopted here: http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?type=PV&reference=20081119&secondRef=ITEM-020&language=EN&ring=B6-2008-0579 or: http://tinyurl.com/657zk3 The debate was broadcast live, but I don't think that there are archives of the video. We were castigating the officials of the European Parliament for their slackness on their 'news' site (the image used was a fly, and was later changed for a mining bee!) and indeed the lead politician (who also went for Einstein as his lead-in) but it is clear that this was an initiative that might deliver something positive for beekeeping (well done Murray!). best wishes Gavin **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 09:27:43 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen Organization: Deep Thought Subject: Re: A Sustainable Commercial Model? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > If you keep losing money over that span, the US IRS tends to look on it > as > a hobby But, any good accountant can help you through that wicket. You are > still losing money, just looks better on paper. My wife is an artist, so I > know. Mine too. There is an alternative argument that is acceptable, particularly in view of the fact that new businesses typically lose money in the first few years, but are demonstrably bona fide businesses, and that is the "reasonable expectation of profit". That argument is usually accepted, especially if the operation is run in a businesslike manner. I think though that the argument stretches thin over time, though. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/4dot9/ --- Sometimes what's right isn't as important as what's profitable. Trey Parker and Matt Stone, South Park, Prehistoric Ice Man, 1999 **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 12:33:01 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Ames Subject: Re: Personal Attacks Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Fri, 21 Nov 2008 10:58:58 -0500, James Fischer wrote: > >I have one nugget of useful beekeeping information at the end, >in an attempt to satisfy convention. Do I need to pan for gold in all those words to find that nugget ? it sounded like all opinion to me....(at least you posted it under the correct subject heading to reinforce your true goal). >That's not the case at all. Both groups are very rigid bastions of >"faith-based beekeeping", dominated by a tiny number of >self-proclaimed high priests who tolerate little else EXCEPT >faith-based beekeeping dogma. Thats funny because that's not what I have seen over there on Beesource. There are several dissident voices who point out a lack of scientific backing even on small cell. The Jennifer Berry paper on small cell got a pretty good discussion this past summer equally represented. There is more balance on that board these days then years ago. Sure its a hobby board but we are all brothers and sisters united under the umbrella of beekeeping. Occasionally there is actually a "nugget" of useful information not shared here. Like in our population everyone has something to offer in some small or large way. You just need to have an open mind to find those nuggets...... **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 13:51:43 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Steve_Noble?= Subject: Re: Law of the Survivor Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit “Therefore, it all boils down to mater of trust.” Good point, Joe. Here’s the thing, though, if I say I don’t use any treatments or manipulations, and that I am able to keep bees without having to go out and buy new packages to keep it all going, that is one thing. It is understood that trust is the only alternative applicable to that kind of claim. If, on the other hand, I say that what I am able to do proves that everyone can keep bees without any treatments or manipulations I am clearly putting something out there that I have no way of knowing unless I have much more than a few anecdotal examples and my own personal experience to go by. In that case I would not only be fooling myself, I would be expecting everyone else to be fools too. There is no reason to trust someone in as much as they are extending their claims beyond that which they can possibly know. What I see going on here is that people are being called to task, not so much for offering their personal experience, but for in some cases dogmatically claiming more than that experience alone can support. Still, it is not 100% proof that we should be expecting. What we are really looking for is a preponderance of irrefutable evidence, and for some there is a need to be able to bet the farm on it. Steve Noble **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 20:24:06 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: European Resolution/Queen methods In-Reply-To: <731701.88167.qm@web86205.mail.ird.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed In message <731701.88167.qm@web86205.mail.ird.yahoo.com>, Gavin Ramsay writes >No video links, but you can see the tabled document, a transcript of >the debate, the outcome of the vote and text adopted here: LOL..this is not the video I meant, but never mind. I meant the one from a few weeks back when we were in Brussels. I should imagine a video of the debate would be a great cure for insomnia. >indeed the lead politician (who also went for Einstein as his lead-in) I pointed out whilst in Brussels that the Einstein quote was an urban myth, but nevertheless it persists. I understand its origin is in a presentation by French beekeepers a few years back and was never known before. >but it is clear that this was an initiative that might deliver >something positive for beekeeping (well done Murray!). I am only a bit part player in this. The bee forage areas were my idea, enthusiastically taken up and run with by the agriculture committee, and the very short four species list initially suggested in the document were given to the chairman by myself, on the understanding that this list will vary according to where in Europe the plantings need to be made. The pesticides were the special area of our French colleague, Gerrard Schiro, who had so many papers and reports with him he almost needed a van! Most of the rest were from several sources, and it is apparent that some items were included to keep the Greens onside. -- Murray McGregor **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 21:08:19 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Murray McGregor Subject: Dave's queens question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed In message <4926D7B0.5030908@lineone.net>, Dave Cushman writes >But to return to our beekeeping remit, you raise 2 or 3 thousand queens >a year, what percentage are raised by deliberate queen rearing methods >as opposed to those generated as a result of colony manipulations like >splitting ? > Way off topic on this thread Dave, however, as always there is no short answer. Other than 'it depends' I suppose. Long answer is that each of the two teams we have working the season has to do ONE bar of grafts every day. A graft is 32 cells. Average acceptance is 22 to 26 ( though we have had 31 a few times, never a 32, and have sometimes had a zero, usually when you KNOW conditions are not favourable but take a chance anyway)............so between the two teams that's 44 to 52 a day. Most mothers are actually selected in the summer and autumn of the previous year, based on performance that season, in particular at our key heather crop, and also fitting a range of other criteria, none of which are set in concrete, just have to have enough good characteristics. The grafts are prepared on site, in the mother colony. ( Colony is specially selected, mother queen is taken away in a 5 bar nuc to another place, all her extra brood is given away to other colonies in the yard, her honey has all the bees shaken off and also given to other hives. The pollen bars are retained and go in the middle of the brood box with the graft placed in between, then the box is filled up with fresh combs and a spare one placed somewhere secure for insertion on the next visit when the grafts are removed. This cell builder is strong, with a big workforce bringing pollen, and lots of nurse bees. It is in a single deep, and almost full of bees. Its a simple one visit quick and dirty system, and the bar of grafts is ready next time back at that group. The grafts are always harvested by the other team, as the squads go round on a 20day schedule, thus arriving at 10 day intervals. Thus a bar of 10 day old grafts are there to be used, and this system continues over a period of 6 to 8 weeks. (We work 7 days a week in summer, so 6 weeks is 42 working days, which probably means around 1800 grafted cells used.) On arrival at the first yard you have a carrier nuc on the back of the truck with some of the day befores cells in them, all being incubated by a liberal covering of bees. Also on the truck are a stack of mini nucs, all prepared with candy and ready for filling. A number are prepared at the first yard and any surplus cells are placed in them and taken home that night to spend 2 or 3 days in the dark. Nucleus boxes ( Tegart type from Canada) are also prepared during the day on an ad hoc basis, just as time and opportunity allows, and these too have cells added. Sometimes we come across colonies of good character that through no fault of their own have prepared queen cells. If all else is good about the colony, and the swarming has an identifiable cause other than just plain swarminess, then we will use those cells too, especially in the Tegart boxes as they are already familiar to the bees and well secure on their frames. So any graft of cells are likely to be used in a variety of ways, in splits, in nucs, and in mini nucs. The graft harvest that morning is placed in the incubator box and taken onwards with us for use in the yards we meet the rest of the day, and also for the first yard next morning. If there is any suspicion that hatching might be imminent the cells are caged. The cell bars are our own design with rotatable cell bars inside a standard Langstroth deep frame, spaced correctly so that hair roller cages can be fitted onto the cups and rotated back to the vertical position, where the cages can only drop by a couple of millimeters and thus no queen escape is possible. These are Nicot cell materials we are using, secured onto our own style cell bars. As I mentioned earlier we try to mate the queens away from the apiary of their birth, but as with so many things, these are, in the words of an old sea captain I served with many years ago, 'guidelines, not tramlines' so if you need cells in the apiary of the graft and you only have cells from the graft you just use them anyway. Once you removed the graft from the raising colony you stick a few bars of brood in it, check to bars adjacent to the graft for cells (you sometimes find one or two, missed eggs in the pollen bars usually, and destroy them, add one cell from the graft ( the better acceptance of her own scented cells outweighs the need to use unrelated stock) and let them get on with it. Each colony is used for ONE bar of cells only, and recovery time of the mothers nuc is very rapid and goes on the make a full harvest at the heather that year. So back to the original question.......what percentage are deliberately raised rather than just normal split queens? I don't know, probably close to 65%. The bulk of the early Apidea ones are from grafts and probably about 50% of the ones in the Tegart nucs. Thinking I REALLY should have started a new thread with this answer. Will go back to the top and try do so. -- Murray McGregor **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 17:19:03 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Personal Attacks MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Brian said: > There are several dissident voices who point > out a lack of scientific backing even on small cell. Again, only to set the record straight... When merely suggesting the validity of science is considered "dissident" by a group, can there be any doubt about how far they have been led astray? > The Jennifer Berry paper on small cell got a pretty > good discussion this past summer equally represented. Well, there was the attempted creation of the new & entertaining theory of "Mite Leveling" to explain why Jen's spring data showed "no difference" between small cell hives and controls, but even that stillborn concept could not explain her full final data set, which showed the small cell colonies had a statistically significant difference of MORE mites per 100 brood cells than the controls. So, they attacked her personally and attacked her methods. She was more bemused than dismayed at the more vicious comments. Most of the offensive posts was deleted, but as I recall, not all were. **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 17:33:40 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: FW: The USA is in bad need of new genetics from abroad MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 20/11/2008 17:51:50 GMT Standard Time, murray@DENROSA.DEMON.CO.UK writes: <> Where do you advertise your queens? How many do you sell indvidually, and how many end up heading nucs which you sell? If you compare the number of ads for queens in the US beekeeping press with the number in the UK press, you'll see what I mean! There's nobody visible enough to really be considered 'large-scale'. 2000+ may be a lot, but I don't have the impression that this is the mainstay of your business! I may, of course, be wrong. I need to do some morphometrics on my bees to see how close they really are to the near-Amm I started with, but black bees are definitely the exception round here, so if there was a significant amount of outcrossing, I'd expect it to show over a few years. It's been very noticeable that my queen raising efforts only succeed when I have plenty of drones available in my own apiary, which again suggests that outcrossing isn't that big a factor. We have, of course, had a couple of vile summers, which won't have encouraged queens to fly far. But you're quite right, I need to look closely, and I've been putting it off since I had a couple of colonies I bought in (not a good decision!) and the presence of these bees would have skewed the results. It'll have to wait till spring, by which time the last of thise bees will thankfully be long gone. Regards, Robert Brenchley Birmingham UK **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2008 00:46:46 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: FW: The USA is in bad need of new genetics from abroad In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed In message , Robert Brenchley writes > Where do you advertise your queens? How many do you sell indvidually, >and how many end up heading nucs which you sell? If you compare the number of >ads for queens in the US beekeeping press with the number in the UK press, >you'll see what I mean! It's OK. From the LOL I put you would note that I was amused rather than offended in any way. Of course it utterly tiny compared to the US/Aus/NZ/Argentina etc etc scale. I don't advertise and I make no claims for either the queens or the nucleii in terms of any racial purity or any fancy pedigree. They are just our tough local bees, the ones we use ourselves in our production hives. I can easily sell all I have to spare and have several takers for every nucleus I can offer. All done privately and by word of mouth, and I dont sell nucs in units of less than 10 at a time plus the buyer has to collect. This is for no other reason than I don't have time to deal with a nuc or two at a time, plus dish out the free advice that of necessity goes with it for half an hour to every caller. > There's nobody visible enough to really be considered >'large-scale'. 2000+ may be a lot, Don't confuse visibility with scale or quality. Ask Bob. Even in the US some of the breeders are virtually invisible if all you do is a web search or a read of the US bee press. > but I don't have the impression that this is >the mainstay of your business! I may, of course, be wrong. No, of course you are not wrong. Queens and nucs are a by product of having surplus bees and queens and bring me some extra personal cash. The main function of the breeding of the queens is for our own needs. The nucs area different matter and I currently have 140 overwintering and I get a pollination fee on those in March/April for fruit tunnels then the good ones are sold or used in any dead outs we may have, and the dinks given the chop ready for filling with fresh nucs in May. We get 2 crops of nucs a season out of those boxes. FWIW I don't charge fancy UK prices either, which is in part because I like the buyer to have a chance that buying my bees/queens will be a viable exercise and thus likely to return for more in future, and partly to ensure the orders are mainly from professionals or amateur groupings who will take enough of them to make it worth my time. 2008 nucs were GBP 60, queens GBP 16. 2009 nucs are GBP 70 and I already have offers to buy more than I can produce, and queens are GBP 18 and already 100 queens are booked to the English Midlands, just a few miles east of you. > > I need to do some morphometrics on my bees to see how close they really >are to the near-Amm I started with, but black bees are definitely the >exception round here, so if there was a significant amount of >outcrossing, I'd >expect it to show over a few years. You are ahead of me on that one. I have never done any morphometry and probably never will. Its fine detail that does not really concern me as all I want are robust vigorous and hard working bees. In our climate this invariably means dark but does not HAVE to mean Amm. We do see characteristics in colonies that show race specific traits (ie the melanistic drones from a previous post) that tell us certain bees have a good bit of race x or y in them, but the actual mix is unimportant so long as the results are good. I have never noticed any of the reputed problems attributed to crosses, in fact crosses are often great. Dark phase NWC virgins (see earlier posts about open mating and Italian drones. Only choose the dark ones as they have an NWC dad as well) crossed on local dark bees ( which are predominantly Amm) is a truly excellent cross, and its vigour takes two or three generations to revert back to the local mean. > It's been very noticeable that my queen >raising efforts only succeed when I have plenty of drones available in my own >apiary, which again suggests that outcrossing isn't that big a factor. >We have, of >course, had a couple of vile summers, which won't have encouraged queens to >fly far. It has indeed been awful. Almost zilch mated in June both years, and those that were were prone to failure, either by supercedure at just weeks old, or by turning drone layer in the first winter. >But you're quite right, I need to look closely, and I've been >putting it off since I had a couple of colonies I bought in (not a >good decision!) >and the presence of these bees would have skewed the results. It'll have to >wait till spring, by which time the last of thise bees will thankfully >be long >gone. I would say just persist with the bees you like, no matter what the morphometry says. Its all a bit nazi to me, perfectly good bees rejected because their wing venation is not as desired. I am a perfectly happy local strain/mongrels owner. -- Murray McGregor **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 20:06:24 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Plaisted Subject: Re: Law of the Survivor In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "Still=2C it is not 100% proof that we should be expecting. What we are rea= lly looking for is a preponderance of irrefutable evidence=2C and for some = there is a need to be able to bet the farm on it." =20 There is only one thing I would bet the farm on....that once I get one pest= under control=2C the next one soon makes an appearance. I don't really ha= ve a mite problem=2C even after 2 years of no treatments(nothing=2C no drug= s introduced into the hive)=2C I saw maybe 20 mites in my hives all summer.= I do however have a problem with noseama crenea....a big problem. Lost 8= 5% of my hives last year to that bug. Did I treat for it this year? You b= etcha. Will I treat for it next year...proably. While I was at it=2C I al= so put on MiteAway II=2C which is rumored to help kill some of the noseama = spoores. And no=2C I haven't updated my website yet...but it is in the wor= ks. =20 My personnal oppinion is that some may get bye with no treatments=2C for aw= hile=2C but then comes the big realization that dead bees don't make honey.= ..that harsh reality takes care of the no treatments crowd...you only need = one careless beekeeper in your area=2C and everything changes. Just my .02= cents worth. =20 Jim =20 http://www.northernqueens.com/ _________________________________________________________________ Proud to be a PC? Show the world. Download the =93I=92m a PC=94 Messenger t= hemepack now. hthttp://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/119642558/direct/01/= **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 21:18:35 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_L_Borst?= Subject: Re: Bacterial Probiotics Induce an Immune Response in the Hone y Bee Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit deknow wrote: > please quote me if you think i've made outlandish claims response: > antibiotic use (ie, the prophylactic use of terramycen) ... will negatively impact the bacteria that do keep the chalkbrood in check ... with predictable results. [ By this I take it to mean that the use of terramycin will generally result in a chalk brood outbreak. Would you also suggest that by not using it, chalk brood would be therefore absent? I would like to see this backed up by real research, not internet advertising. ] **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 19:08:51 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: Law of the Survivor In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Steve said: There is no > reason to trust > someone in as much as they are extending their claims > beyond that which > they can possibly know. Steve, I agree, and I thought over you comments for sometime before deciding how to respond. First, I want to say that IMO, the making of claims beyond ones ability can be very problematic towards productive and honest discussion. This being said, what I look for is ā€˜claims with balanceā€™. I will tend to look towards extending more trust to those making a few high sounding claims if they are accompanied with balance. For instance, I have no problem posting for all to see, my losses and bee problems, including the occasional case of foulbrood, sacbrood, chalkbrood, fluctuating winter kills. You can go back to 2001 on many lists and see posts I made commenting on my 50 to 100% winter failures year after year. This is what I tend to look for, the good with the bad, which to me is perhaps more suggestive of being truthful. Now, for folks promoting small cell OR any other ā€˜single treatmentā€™ for that matter, as a miracle cure for all, without giving balance, sends up red flags with me. What I see going on here is that > people are being > called to task, not so much for offering their personal > experience, but for > in some cases dogmatically claiming more than that > experience alone can > support. I agree that they should be called to task. Now I thought for quite some time about where exactly the problem is. Where does the grief, blow ups, and hard feelings come from in these disagreements?,,,I hope to express in a very strong manner that IMO, it is not the dogmatic claims that are the problem. This, as I said in a previous post is ā€™junk mailā€™ and should be ignored, thrown in the trash or called to task. The problem lies in how one chooses to respond to the dogma. You need not go any further than to look at the persons that IMO are experts in promoting good discussion. And 2 of my many favorites that should be exemplified for their good discussion are Chris Slade and Keith Benson, who are both very good at confronting wild claims with well crafted questions. On the other side of the coin are those that choose to attack the person, or make insulting remarks, and I need not say more here. Any thread that gets out of hand is usually from a person resorting to insults or personal attacks. This is where the problem is, it is not the dogma! Watch the threads that get out of hand, and you will see the persons making personal attacks or insulting remarks in the middle of the fray every time. What we > are really looking for is a preponderance of irrefutable > evidence, and for > some there is a need to be able to bet the farm on it. I regret to say that we will perhaps never achieve 100% acceptance of irrefutable evidence on any discussion list. I have seen good research being picked apart on this list and others because of perceived or fabricated error that may have had no effect on the outcome of the study. This is due to some choosing to be disingenuous and dishonest in their debating tactics. Again, in parting words, evidence means nothing without trust. Best Wishes, Joe **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 19:40:43 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: Law of the Survivor In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit James Plaisted wrote: > My personnal oppinion is that some may get bye with no > treatments, for awhile, but then comes the big realization > that dead bees don't make honey... Hi Jim, Nice to hear from you. I know that you were into the feral bee thing, and I encourage you to keep up some ongoing efforts in this area. But, Iā€™m not sure that ā€œno treatmentsā€ equates to ā€œdead beesā€. I see this equation made by beekeepers all the time. The problem is, that beekeepers tend to want to blame a single event for there problems, and beekeepers that have hives die in years they use no treatments have a convenient scape goat, partly because everybody makes assertions that bees will die without treatments. This gives false comfort and good cause for future failure by ignoring the real cause, which perhaps is bees lacking in resistant traits. that harsh reality > takes care of the no treatments crowd... I want to say here that ā€œno treatmentsā€ not a magic bullet, it must be combined with good stock, as well as a multitude of good beekeeping practices. A person promoting ā€˜no treatmentsā€™ or ā€˜small cellā€™ as a magic bullet is doomed to failure. I am against the ā€™magic bullet theoriesā€™ in beekeeping! Beekeeping, requires a multitude good beekeeping practices to be successful. you only need one > careless beekeeper in your area, and everything changes. > Just my .02 cents worth. Iā€™m not one that believes other beekeepers problems can have a great impact on my bees. I see bees as not being at the mercy of other bee colonies, or bad beekeepers. But instead, at the mercy of their own fitness and disease resistant abilities. I believe we are not helpless, we can breed our way out of any bee problem. PS. bear season starts here in PA soon. I extend my usual offer of free jar of honey to every hunter that kills a bear on Derry ridge. Best Wishes, Joe Derry, PA **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 22:03:34 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: A Sustainable Commercial Model? In-Reply-To: <213203.3897.qm@web51604.mail.re2.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dee, I come from a similar background as Ed. I have hand loaded semi's of hives of bees. Moved bees with two wheelers etc. I have lived in farmhouses without running water, electricity and only heated by a fireplace in winter. I do not want to go back to those days on the farm nor the hand loading of beehives. I give advice to new commercial beeks all the time. In today's world the equipment needs to come along with the hives. Hive numbers are only part of the situation. The old ways which you advocate were fine years ago but are not sustainable in my world. Modern commercial beekeeping using help and paying a decent wage ( you will not get the best help unless you pay a decent wage as help will always be looking for a better job and can and will be stolen away by your fellow beeks which are willing to pay your help a better wage). Today beeks need fast ways of working bees. Moving hives is the easiest job we do. One person can move a truck load by their self using a forklift and pallets. A truck full of empty supers can be loaded in minutes. Full supers are simply lifted from the hive stack a couple feet to a waiting special honey house pallet. In my operation the next time the box is lifted the box is empty. I have friends which extract 40 drums of honey a day. You know I respect you Dee and we talk off list many times. I admire what you do and your methods but doing things the way you do would effect my bottom line and would make it hard for me to hire help. The help whines enough using modern methods. Many people think because we use swingers and trucks there is not heavy lifting involved. Even with today's modern methods there is plenty of heavy lifting. I have had two hernia operations and a rotator cuff surgery over the last six years. I just returned from 12 days on the road or I would have tried to come to Nebraska to hear your talk. However only if you would promise not to embarrass me like you did our mutual friend H.B. ( private joke between Dee & myself). You will always be a commercial beekeeper in my book! bob **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * ****************************************************