From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 11:06:00 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-90.0 required=2.4 tests=ALL_NATURAL,AWL, MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id A886D48864 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 11:03:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SG3Y6k017265 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 11:03:37 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 11:03:36 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0901B" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 186333 Lines: 4614 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 23:56:27 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: FW: [BEE-L] Dwindling In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > > >Given the amount of work done so far on CCD and comb contamination, > presumably someone has been checking for N ceranae spores? Great presumption, but I don't know if it's actually happened. I will try to find out tomorrow (I'm at the Am. Honey Producers Assoc convention). Randy Oliver ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 07:23:53 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John & Christy Horton Subject: Deaf Beekeepers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chris, What it is is that the beekeepers-while fooling with the bees-have ,when called by their spouses to do a chore, so long pretended to not be able to hear them that they finally succumbed to their own words. John :) ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 07:43:51 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Walter Weller Subject: Re: Deaf Beekeepers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, Chris and Bob, It's not just beekeepers; all the men I know are partially deaf. May just be age, but men who are my age were exposed to a lot of noise in WWII (guns, airplanes) and subsequent conflicts, plus various sustained occupational noises later (drilling rigs in my case). Lord knows what the new generation of rock fans will develop. Walter Weller ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 09:37:23 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Peter_L_Borst?= Subject: Re: FW: [BEE-L] Dwindling Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >> >Given the amount of work done so far on CCD and comb contamination, >> presumably someone has been checking for N ceranae spores? I would ask, why wouldn't there be? The idea that a hive that was sick with nosema would leave the equipment covered with spores is consistent with logic and common sense. The following refers to N. apis but no doubt applies to N. ceranae with the difference that it persists in the summer > Nosema disease is probably the most widespread of the diseases of adult bees. White (1919) cited reports of the presence of nosema in Australia, South America, North America and Europe. The disease has been reported on every continent (Furgala and Mussen, 1990). Considerable variation has been reported in its incidence in different countries. but this is probably a function of the scale and timing of investigations. The true incidences are probably considerably greater than the values that have been reported. These range from less than 2% of colonies infected in Italy to more than 60% in the Black Forest regions of Germany (Bailey and Ball, 1991). > Doull (1961) carried out a study of N. apis in hives in South Australia. He determined that N. apis was *present in all hives at all times*. He concluded that no hive is likely to be completely free from either spores or infected bees for any appreciable length of time. Langridge (1961) reported that during the summer months colonies in Victoria generally carry a few infected bees (usually a small fraction of 1%). [referring to N. apis] > N. apis spores are ingested by susceptible worker bees via contaminated water or food, by food exchange with other bees or in their duties of cleaning contaminated combs. The spores are passed quickly into the midgut by the proventriculus. A single spore of N. apis can cause infection. However, the mean infective dose is reported to be between approximately 20 and 90 spores per bee. When they enter the mid-gut they each extrude their hollow polar filament and inject the germ through it onto an epithelial cell (Kramer, 1960b; Morganthaler, 1963). Adult worker bees, adult queen bees and adult drones are all susceptible. © 2008 Rural Industries Research and Development Corporation. All rights reserved. ISBN 1 74151 595 5 ISSN 1440-6845 Nosema Disease: Literature review and three year survey of beekeepers - Part 2 Publication No. 08/006 Project No. DAN-228A ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 12:36:16 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: FW: [BEE-L] Dwindling MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> Given the amount of work done so far on CCD and comb contamination, >> presumably someone has been checking for N ceranae spores? > I don't know if it's actually happened. Yes, of course it has. More to the point, from the beginning, both kinds of Nosema have consistently been found in colonies showing the common symptoms of CCD. This has been well-known from the very first samples screened, circa Feb 2007 or so. Even the deeply flawed work leading to the 9/2007 paper in "Science" showed a consistent pattern - both kinds of Nosema together in the same hives correlate with a very high level of confidence to CCD. http://bee-quick.com/reprints/dapaper.pdf Their own data showed that the presence of both kinds of Nosema at the same time correlated with a much higher degree of confidence than did the much-ballyhooed "Israeli Acute Paralysis Virus" (IAPV): http://bee-quick.com/reprints/dedetails.pdf or, explained in plain English: http://bee-quick.com/reprints/reads.pdf I have renamed that virus ILPV ("Ian Lipkin's Pet Virus") so that we will never forget how long we were delayed by attempts to take credit for finding what is now clearly the wrong virus. It is interesting to note that the two types of "comb decontamination" employed on CCD dead-out equipment with what Dave Hackenberg described as "success" were traditional ways to decontaminate Nosema infested combs: http://tinyurl.com/a5rrdu or http://maarec.cas.psu.edu/CCDPpt/PathogenSub-GroupProjectMay142007.pdf (See "Equipment Re-Use From Dead Out Colonies") But having both kinds of Nosema is not, in itself, "CCD". There's more to it, but it is not my place to pre-announce findings that are not yet scheduled for publication. ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 14:27:16 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Alf Bashore Subject: Re: Hard of hearing--Deaf Beekeepers In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Anyone become hard of hearing, which I am. I alway have had some hearing loss but with a gradual progressive worsening. Various causes: Loud noisy work environment, shooting firearms, loud music, loud motorcycles, race cars, trucks. Prescription drugs especially some IV medications given in hospital environments. Genetics play a part. Also various childhood illnesses can cause this. And some head traumas can cause partial or total hearing loss. To a lesser extent age might be a factor, but most folks nowadays have some hearing loss which worsens as they age. Hence it is mostly environmental noise related. And aren't some of the current issues related to honey bees environmental, disease, and toxin related? Walter Weller wrote: > It's not just beekeepers ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 22:09:19 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: FW: [BEE-L] Dwindling - now N ceranae spores on combs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jim wrote concerning whether CCD combs have been checked for the presence of N. ceranae spores: > Yes, of course it has. Citation? > More to the point, from the beginning, both kinds of Nosema have > consistently been found in colonies showing the common symptoms > of CCD. Yes, we know that - but we were discussing the specific issue of whether N. ceranae spores are found on combs, rather than in adult bees. > Even the deeply flawed work leading to the 9/2007 paper in "Science" > showed a consistent pattern - both kinds of Nosema together in the > same hives correlate with a very high level of confidence to CCD. Spores in bees, on combs - or both? > http://bee-quick.com/reprints/dapaper.pdf A brief look at this paper suggests that the Noseama was found in samples of bees, not on comb - or did I miss something? > or, explained in plain English: > http://bee-quick.com/reprints/reads.pdf where we read: "In this case, it means processing samples of bees and royal jelly." "What The Paper Claims, In 44 Words Let's start with the essential core of the summary "abstract" paragraph: "The observation that irradiated combs from affected colonies can be repopulated with naive bees suggests that infection may contribute to CCD. ...pathogens were screened for significance of association with CCD. One organism, Israeli acute paralysis virus of bees (IAPV), was strongly correlated with CCD." " So nothing here about N. ceranae spores on combs. > I have renamed that virus ILPV ("Ian Lipkin's Pet Virus") so that we > will never forget how long we were delayed by attempts to take credit > for finding what is now clearly the wrong virus. Virus??? We were discussing N. ceranae! > It is interesting to note that the two types of "comb > decontamination" employed on CCD dead-out equipment with > what Dave Hackenberg described as "success" were traditional > ways to decontaminate Nosema infested combs: "Comb from dead out colonies was either fumigated with acetic acid, irradiated, or left untreated before packages were introduced." Is irradiation a 'traditional' treatment for nosema? Whether it is, or not, I still come back to the point that none of this tells us whether anyone has checked for the presence of N. ceranae spores on comb! Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers at stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 18:49:55 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter L Borst Subject: N ceranae spores on combs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > About 30-50 million spores are in the gut of a bee when infection is fully developed (Bailey and Ball, 1991) although 180 million spores per bee have been reported. So one crushed bee could liberate enough spores to provide an infective dose for 2 to 9 million bees or about 100 colonies pb -- Peter L Borst Danby, NY USA www.people.cornell.edu/pages/plb6 ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 19:05:23 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: FW: [BEE-L] Dwindling - now N ceranae spores on combs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > whether CCD combs have been checked for the presence of > N. ceranae spores: > Citation? Very little has been published on CCD with such detail. If you doubt my memory, I can send you the audio of the first "CCD Working Group" meeting, where the results from analysis of samples of bees, comb, and pollen were discussed in detail by the teams that did the analysis. > ...but we were discussing the specific issue of whether > N. ceranae spores are found on combs, rather than > in adult bees. Yes, they were found, and they still can be found. I'd guess that more comb is now infected than not in the US. >Is irradiation a 'traditional' treatment for nosema? Yes, the standard blurb goes something like: "Comb can be disinfected by: a) Irradiation, b) Maintaining comb at 50°C (120°F) for 24h c) Fumigation with concentrated (80%) acetic acid (150 ml per stack of five supers) for one week" Larger operations have used irradiation for years. In Canada, they use E-beam, and it has been used for Nosema apis and foulbrood for years. In the USA, there are several Cobalt sources, primarily used for irradiation of fruits and veggies. > none of this tells us whether anyone has checked for the > presence of N. ceranae spores on comb! I don't know where anyone might have published anything saying so in words of one syllable, but it certainly has come up in conversations multiple times. I'm sure you will agree that where bees have either form of Nosema, comb will be contaminated/infected, and is able to re-infect future generations of bees if the comb is not decontaminated. The point I thought was "obvious" here was that while the irradiation of comb will kill all pathogens, Acetic acid fumigation cannot be expected to kill all particles/spores of a suspected but unknown virus. Either treatment is well-known to kill Nosema of either type, so, in retrospect, the similar short-term successes of both treatments in the MAAREC test, combined with the similar long-term failure to keep the colonies healthy lent credence to the view that Nosema is a significant factor in CCD. If packages placed on irradiated combs had fared better than packages placed on comb fumigated with acetic acid, then I would be unable to make this point, but the similar short-term success of both types of comb treatments tried by MAAREC versus the relative lackluster short-term performance of packages placed on untreated combs just screams "Nosema" loudly. Now, >>> NONE <<< of the colonies in the MAAREC experiment did not show a long-term positive impact over a one-year period, but they did claim some noticeable short-term advantages. This is another thing that just screams "Nosema". People are finding that their yards are getting reinfected, as Nosema ceranae appears to be a year-round issue rather than the seasonal issue that Nosema apis has been. And before you ask - Dennis VanEnglesdorp is the one who noted the short-term success versus the longer term lack of success, and he made the point in several presentations made in the Feb/March 2008 timeframe. I am not voicing an opinion about the health of the colonies, I am quoting the person who examined the colonies to assess their health as a part of the testing. ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 06:37:13 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Mike_Bassett?= Subject: Re: Deaf Beekeepers Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Thu, 8 Jan 2009 07:43:51 -0600, Walter Weller wrote: >It's not just beekeepers; all the men I know are partially deaf. When they tested my hearing for a job they said I couldn't hear a specific decibel level, I asked what level that would be and they said I wouldn't be able to hear specific womens voices. took me forever to find the right women to marry!!!! when did you tell me to do that dear???? mike syracuse ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 16:27:28 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: FW: [BEE-L] Dwindling - now N ceranae spores on combs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jim wrote: "I'd guess that more comb is now infected than not in the US. it certainly has come up in conversations multiple times." "The point I thought was "obvious" here was that while the irradiation of comb will kill all pathogens, Acetic acid fumigation cannot be expected to kill all particles/spores of a suspected but unknown virus." "the relative lackluster short-term performance of packages placed on untreated combs just screams "Nosema" loudly." Is this the same Jim who demands scientific rigour in answers from others from others? No, I can't let you get away with words like "guess", "obvious", or "screams"! As for: "I'm sure you will agree that where bees have either form of Nosema, comb will be contaminated/infected" that is what we were trying to establish! I asked: "Given the amount of work done so far on CCD and comb contamination, presumably someone has been checking for N ceranae spores?" (Note the question mark). So far, the answer seems to be that nobody knows for sure and if they have then it does not appear to have been documented. I must admit I find this hard to believe. Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers at stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 14:09:01 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: SABA Seminar 2009 at UAlbany Comments: cc: Anne Frey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The Southern Adirondack Beekeepers Association will present ... S.A.B.A.'s 2009 Beekeeping Seminar Speakers and Topics: Jennifer Berry of the University of Georgia : Sub-lethal Levels of Miticides linger in the Hive, IPM vs. Small Hive Beetles Dr. Ernesto Guzman of the University of Guelph: Africanized Honey Bees and Their Impact on Honey Statistics, Mortality Causes of Over-wintered Colonies Dr. Medhat Nasr of Crop Diversification Centre North, Alberta: Varroa Control: Putting the Pieces Together for Successful Mite Control, Bee Health and Colony Kill: Beekeepers' Blues Presentations will run consecutively.  Raffle drawings held at 4:45. Date and time: Saturday February 21 9:00 A.M. - 5:00 P.M. Location: Lecture Center One at UAlbany (University at Albany), 1400 Washington Ave., Albany NY. (Same place as in 2003 - 2008). Cost: $30 if pre-registered by 2/11.  This includes refreshment breaks.  (Lunch is available nearby.) Walk-ins are welcome at a cost of $40 each. Friday night Dinner: There will be a get-together dinner at a nearby restaurant the night before the seminar. Speakers usually attend. (Please mark your registration and send $30 deposit.) Hotels: 3 hotels are extremely close by: Marriott Courtyard (518-435-1600), 1455 Washington Ave.; Marriott Fairfield (518-435-1800), 1383 Washington Ave.; and Best Western Sovereign (518-963-7666), 1228 Western Ave. Questions: Anne Frey SABA@capital.net Use seminar in the subject line, or call 518-895-8744. www.adirondackbees.org ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 16:00:42 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Walter Zimmermann Subject: question for Hawaiian beekeepers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Greetings: some Canadian friends are going to be? vacationing in Hawaii for two weeks coming up are there any of you who would care to give them a tour of your honeyhouse etc? Aaron Morris suggested I post this so you can email me direct if you wish littlewolfbees@aol.com Walter Little Wolf Apiaries Ontario Canada ________________________________________________________________________ New Music Releases - Free Full CD Listening Parties Every Week. Listen Now. http://music.aol.ca/full-cd-listening-party/?icid=AOLMUS00050000000045 ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 17:04:26 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: FW: [BEE-L] Dwindling - now N ceranae spores on combs In-Reply-To: <30065AE675FE4C4980A574DC967EB316@office> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, quick answer: Spores are viable on comb for *at least* 6 months to a year. Jerry Hayes quote from his January ABF "classroom". Jerry is a member of the CCD working group. Not sure how long comb would need to sit for the nosema spores to not be viable on comb. I personally am now treating ALL deadouts from the season before with acetic acid before adding bees. I would guess spores exposed to sunlight would not be as viable as long but only a guess. Radiating comb is too expensive in my opinion and acetic acid does as good a job in my opinion.(as far as nosema ceranae spores are concerned) bob ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 00:58:44 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juanse Barros Subject: Heating Honey for Homogenization MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I have a request for heating 80 drums of honey per week. Any hints for a good desing of heating room. -- Juanse Barros J. APIZUR S.A. Carrera 695 Gorbea - CHILE +56-45-271693 08-3613310 http://apiaraucania.blogspot.com/ juanseapi@gmail.com ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 18:58:46 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: FW: [BEE-L] Dwindling - now N ceranae spores on combs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am bemused by the focus on this minor point, but I will assist Peter's inquiries as best I can. > I can't let you get away with words like "guess", > "obvious", or "screams"! I will not put words in the mouths of others without verifying with them first, so I will refrain from attributing specifics simply to satisfy your demand for more definite "proof" of what I will stress yet again should be obvious to even the casual observer. > I asked: "Given the amount of work done so far > on CCD and comb contamination, presumably someone > has been checking for N ceranae spores?" > (Note the question mark). I answered. "Yes, of course". I'll even go so far as to say "Yes!" (Note the exclamation point.) > So far, the answer seems to be that nobody knows > for sure I think I've said I know often enough, but you seem to want to hear it from someone who is more than a mere "nobody". > and if they have then it does not appear to have > been documented. I must admit I find this > hard to believe. To quote Darth Vader, "I find your lack of faith disturbing." :) The more accurate test from a clinical standpoint would be the count of Nosema spores in the gut of a sample of bees, as the number of spores is of interest. It is clear (to me, at least) that the lack of anything more than casual interest in the use of comb analysis as a screening tool is the complete lack of any calibrated "levels" for Nosema comb residue. So, while someone certainly could publish data saying that they found so many million spores per gram of wax sampled, they would be unable to draw any firm conclusion from the data, given that residue levels are going to vary widely from colony to colony within a yard, and also vary widely for the same level of infection based upon the weather. Bees confined to the hive by bad weather will deposit more feces on comb than bees that can fly every day. So, the focus is certain to remain on looking at Nosema levels in samples of bees, as the results would be more meaningful/useful. ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 08:51:37 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter L Borst Subject: N ceranae spores on combs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Does anyone really doubt that the hives in which nosema afflicted colonies have lived and even died are covered with spores? One doesn't need to see the spores to know that they are there any more than one needs to see dandelion seeds to be certain if dandelions will come up in a field the next year after a heavy dandelion bloom. Finding nosema infection in the bees is indication that they are sick and leaving spores everywhere. Nosema was one of the first infectious diseases to be studied by Pasteur. That the spores are everywhere is evidenced by the fact that the only way Pasteur could raise healthy moths was to segregate the eggs into a disease free environment. The disease is not transmitted via the egg. Unfortunately this is no help in treating bees with nosema, as the larvae require the care of the bees. That is why the disease must be treated in the bees themselves. Sterilizing comb is just a precaution against reinfection, which probably is not even worth the trouble. If you are feeding fumagillin the bees will be protected from reinfection from combs. Sterilizing the combs would only be worthwhile if you were assured that you restocked with bees that were nosema free and that they weren't going to pick it up soon from somebody else's sick bees. Or, if you had in mind avoiding antibiotics at all costs, acetic acid is certainly an intelligent alternative, though expect it to do nothing to kill the nosema in the bees. > In 1865, the French government commissioned Pasteur to investigate pébrine disease [nosema bombycis], which was killing silkworms and devastating the national silk industry. After three years, Pasteur discovered that pébrine was caused by a microorganism, and showed that disease could be prevented if healthy worms and eggs were separated from sick worms and contaminated materials. Timeline: Louis Pasteur, 1822–1895 By Sheng Wang http://www.medhunters.com/articles/timelineLouisPasteur.html -- Peter L Borst Danby, NY USA www.people.cornell.edu/pages/plb6 ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 09:07:09 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randyoliver@INFOSTATIONS.COM Subject: Re: FW: [BEE-L] Dwindling - now N ceranae spores on combs In-Reply-To: <9054AADD1E104ECE883D96C3269BD807@office> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Peter, I am sorry to see you having such a difficult time getting an answer to a simple question! Yesterday I asked the following question to several researchers directly: "Have you, or any other researchers that you know of, actually looked to see if there were Nosema ceranae spores on the combs?" Dr. Eric Mussen, a U.S. nosema expert, said "No." Dr. Marla Spivak, who has been studying N ceranae, said "No." Dr. Jeff Pettis, head of the USDA/ARS team studying N ceranae, said "No." Dennis van Englesdorp, of the Penn State CCD collaboration, said "No." About the only other nosema researchers in the U.S. that I can think of are Dr. Steve Sheppard and Dr. Robert Cramer, who I didn't ask directly, but I have been speaking with both recently, and I have no reason to believe that they have looked at the comb. In fact, yesterday some of the researchers above, and I, discussed this glaring oversight, and had an interesting discussion as to how best to go about it! Should we simply swab, or rinse? I didn't get the impression that any planned to follow up. Jim Fischer, whose opinion I greatly respect, apparently has more information than myself or those above. Jim, I would be happy to fill in this apparent oversight in our knowledge of N. ceranae. If you will suggest to me a protocol for examination that would be satisfactory to you, I would be happy to go out to a N ceranae-infected colony and swab, wash, or otherwise collect a sample as per your instructions, and examine it under the microscope for spores. While you are at it, perhaps you could clarify your logic as to how the difference between acetic acid and irraditation sterilization of combs implies that N ceranae spores are on the combs. Both treatments kill nosema spores, and somehow I'm not understanding your reasoning. Maybe I'm the only dull one on this List, but would appreciate the favor of your clarification. Thank you Peter for pointing out an apparent gap in our knowledge. I look forward to plugging it upon receipt of Jim's suggested protocol (to this List, not private please, Jim). Randy Oliver Making an effort to maintain polite discussion in this new year! ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 15:52:01 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Marron Subject: N Ceranae spores on comb. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Randy wrote: >>>In fact, yesterday some of the researchers above, and I, discussed this glaring oversight, and had an interesting discussion as to how best to go about it! Should we simply swab, or rinse? <<< It seems to me that they could look in the book on how to test comb for AFB spores. It's been going on for a long time, no? The discussion is sort of like asking the question, "do fish get wet when it rains?" We know the spores are there because the bees transport them to the microscope (Via a Slurry). We know the spores are there because if the comb isn't treated, it infects the next swarm to inhabit them. We know a small number of spores can infect a lot of bees: ergo, who cares about the number of them. That's why no one counts. Sheesh, Dick marron. ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 23:42:17 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: FW: [BEE-L] Dwindling - now N ceranae spores on combs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jim wrote: >I am bemused by the focus on this minor point, So am I. Perhaps we should take a little time to re-cap on how we arrived here. Randy Oliver originally wrote: > I haven't yet seen any study that has shown the N ceranae contaminates > the comb, as does N apis. It very well may, but haven't seen supporting > evidence. and I responded: > Given the amount of work done so far on CCD and comb contamination, > presumably someone has been checking for N ceranae spores? I thought that a fairly uncontroversial response. At worse, I expected someone to say 'Yes they have -you have obviously missed reading xxxxx'. Instead, I seem to have been subjected to a vitriolic attack from Jim - which I have to admit I almost enjoy in a sort of masochistic way - but feel that I do not deserve it for asking such a simple question! Why did I ask it? Well, we all know that bees with Nosema apis often defaecate on the comb and that the combs are therefore a source of infection. Bailey taught us that there was no point in treating the adult bees with Fumidil B (take that as the Greek letter 'beta') unless we sterilised the combs at the same time - either with acetic acid or by employing a 'Bailey' comb change. But, we are told, N. ceranae is different. The infection is, unlike N. apis, prevalent in the summer when bees are able to fly freely and therefore perhaps less likely to soil the combs. So Randy's statement that he had not seem any supporting evidence that bees contaminate combs when infected with N.c. seemed a perfectly valid observation - as, I think, was my question 'presumably someone has been checking for N.c. spores?' Peter Borst has responded with: > Does anyone really doubt that the hives in which nosema afflicted > colonies have lived and even died are covered with spores? To which I would reply: 'No. My gut feeling is that it is extremely likely - but gut feelings are not particularly scientific'. Dick Marron responded (with a 'sheesh'): > We know the spores are there because if the comb isn't treated, it > infects the next swarm to inhabit them. But have we shown that these are N.c. spores - which was the original question? Jim's response was a little more condescending at times: > but I will assist Peter's inquiries as best I can. Thank you sir (he said, touching his forelock). > I will not put words in the mouths of others > without verifying with them first, so I > will refrain from attributing specifics > simply to satisfy your demand for more > definite "proof" of what I will stress > yet again should be obvious to even the > casual observer. Ah! the 'obvious' word again! > I think I've said I know often enough, but you > seem to want to hear it from someone who is more > than a mere "nobody". No Jim, you are definitely not a nobody! I have the greatest respect for your contributions to this list and appreciate your intellect and incisive wit. > To quote Darth Vader, "I find your lack of > faith disturbing." :) I thought that you separated faith and science a long time ago on this list. > The more accurate test from a clinical standpoint > would be the count of Nosema spores in the gut of > a sample of bees, as the number of spores is of > interest. Agreed!!! (he said, with three exclamation points!) - but, sadly, that is not what we were discussing. Again you have moved from the original question which simply asked whether N. c. contaminates the comb. > It is clear (to me, at least) that the > lack of anything more than casual interest in the > use of comb analysis as a screening tool is the > complete lack of any calibrated "levels" for > Nosema comb residue. No-one mentioned screening tools. > So, while someone certainly could publish data > saying that they found so many million spores > per gram of wax sampled, they would be unable to > draw any firm conclusion from the data... Yes they would - they could conclude either that N.c. spores are found on the comb or that they are not! If they are, then the comb becomes a source of infection, if not, then it is not. > Bees confined to the > hive by bad weather will deposit more feces > on comb than bees that can fly every day. Is this not a winter phenomenum? Bees are rarely confined for extended periods (at least in the UK) during the summer months. Of course, moving bees when they have been unable to fly for some time could be an issue here. > So, the focus is certain to remain on looking > at Nosema levels in samples of bees, as the > results would be more meaningful/useful. I think I agreed that above. Randy has also responded: > Yesterday I asked the following question to several researchers directly: > "Have you, or any other researchers that you know of, actually looked to > see if there were Nosema ceranae spores on the combs?" > Dr. Eric Mussen, a U.S. nosema expert, said "No." > Dr. Marla Spivak, who has been studying N ceranae, said "No." > Dr. Jeff Pettis, head of the USDA/ARS team studying N ceranae, said "No." > Dennis van Englesdorp, of the Penn State CCD collaboration, said "No." > Thank you Peter for pointing out an apparent gap in our knowledge. I look > forward to plugging it upon receipt of Jim's suggested protocol (to this > List, not private please, Jim). At this point I shall bow out of the thread, muttering Q.E.D. to myself, but also making the point that, although some things may seem 'obvious', in the words of a well know composer: ' It ain't necessarily so!' Just a few years ago, we 'knew' that bees emerged with deformed wings because Varroa jacobsoni mites were feeding on the larvae and damaging them; now we know that the mites are Varroa destructor and we have discovered Deformed Wing Virus. Assume nothing! Best wishes to all Peter Edwards beekeepers at stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 23:54:31 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: FW: [BEE-L] Dwindling - now N ceranae spores on combs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob wrote: > Spores are viable on comb for *at least* 6 months to a year.... > Radiating comb is too expensive in my opinion and acetic acid does as good > a job in my opinion.(as far as nosema ceranae spores are concerned) Thanks Bob - useful answer. Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers at stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 18:57:11 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Edward Bevan - A Scientific Apiarian Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From, Historical Honeybee Articles Floriferis ut apes In saltibus omnla libant This the first in a 3 part series on Edward Bevan, to be sent out as a Special Notice to subscribers of the Historical Honeybee Articles site over the next 3 days, and cross post to Bee-L for the purpose of informing about this most notable person in scientific beekeeping history. I thought it fitting to inform first, with a few short biographies of Bevan. Please find below, the first Special Notice, titled: Edward Bevan - A Biography of A Scientific Apiarian. Complete with source reference. (The 2nd and 3rd Special Notices to be sent over the next few days, are articles from 1843 in which writers from the National Intelligencer (over 160 years ago), review in an 'older fashion' the much anticipated 1843 American edition of The Honey Bee: Its Natural History, Physiology, and Management, by Edward Bevan, to “give an exact account of our author, and whatever in his subject seems to us fittest to be presented to our readers.”) ===== Edward Bevan, a brief Biography ===== Source: W.E.B. Du Boise Library University of Massachusetts, Amherst, Mass. http://www.library. umass.edu/ spcoll/exhibits/ bees/bevan. htm A physician and well known apiarist, Edward Bevan (1770-1860) faced a raft of hardships in his youth, including the death of both parents when he was an infant followed, at the age of eight, by the death of his uncle and guardian. Studying medicine in London and, later, Scotland, Bevan achieved a level of financial independence that allowed his to retire by his late 40s, after which he devoted himself to bee culture. A foundational text for modern beekeeping, Bevan's The Honey Bee (1827, 2nd edition 1838, American edition 1843) offers a broad overview of apiculture. Attempting to combine "the profitable with the instructive and amusing," Bevan provided a readable, yet scholarly look at managing bee hives. The final part of this text is an in depth study of bee anatomy and behavior. The 1827 edition can be found here: The honey bee; its natural history, physiology, and management - 1827 By Edward Bevan http://www.archive. org/details/ honeybeeitsnatur 00bevarich ===== Edward Bevan Biography ===== Source: Dictonary of National Biography by George Smith - 1885 Page 444 http://books. google.com/ books?id= KwMJAAAAQAAJ& pg=PA444 Bevan, Edward, M.D. (1770-1860), physician and an eminent apiarian, was born, in London on 8 July 1770. Being left fatherless in early infancy, he was received into the house of his maternal grandfather, Mr. Powle, of Hereford, and at the age of eight was placed at the grammar school, Woottonunder- Edge, where he remained for four years. He was afterwards removed to the college school at Hereford, and it having been determined that he should adopt medicine as a profession, he was apprenticed to a surgeon in that town. He then proceeded to London, was entered as a student at St. Bartholomew' s Hospital, and during three sessions of attendance on the lectures of his instructors Abernethy, Latham, and Austin, he acquired the honourable appellation of 'the indefatigable.' His degree of M.D. was obtained from the university of St. Andrew's in 1818. He commenced practice at Mort- lake as assistant to Dr. John Clarke. After five years so spent he settled on his own account first at Stoke-upon- Trent, and then at Congleton. There he married the second daughter of Mr. Cartwright, an apothecary, one of the last of the ' bishops ' of a sect called the primitive Christian church. After twelve years' residence in Cheshire, his health not bearing the fatigue of a country business, Bevan again returned to Mortlake, and practised there for two years, but with a like result. He thereupon retired to a small estate at Bridstow, near Ross, in Herefordshire, where he devoted himself to the development of an apiary which he found already established on his newly acquired property. Previous to this he had, in 1822, assisted his friend Mr. Samuel Parkes in the preparation of the third and revised edition of the latter's ' Rudiments of Chemistry.' The first edition of his book on bees was issued in 1827, with the title, `The Honey- Bee : its Natural History, Physiology, and Management.' This treatise at once established the author's reputation as a scientific apiarian, and was read wherever the bee is regarded as an object of interest. The second edition, published in 1838, is dedicated to her Majesty. In it the author has included much new and valuable matter. A third edition, by W. A. Munn, appeared in 1870. Bevan also wrote a paper on the ' Honey-Bee Communities ' in the first volume of the ' Magazine of Zoology and Botany,' and published a few copies of ' Hints on the History and Management of the Honey-Bee,' which had formed the substance of two lectures read before the Hereford Literary Institution in the winter of 1850-51. He had from 1849 fixed his residence at Hereford, where he died on 31 Jan. 1860, when within a few months of completing his ninetieth year As a public man Bevan was shy and retiring, but was much beloved in the circle of his private acquaintances. It is recorded as a proof of the esteem in which he was held, that on the occasion of a great flood in the Wye, in February 1802, washing away all the doctor's beehives, a public subscription was raised, and a new apiary presented to him, of which, as a very pleasing substitute for what he had playfullv called his ' Virgilian Temple,' the venerable apiarian was justly proud. Bevan was one of the founders of the Entomological Society in 1833. Best Wishes, Joe Waggle Historical Honeybee Articles Floriferis ut apes In saltibus omnla libant http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/HistoricalHoneybeeArticles/ ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 17:05:18 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: FW: [BEE-L] Dwindling - now N ceranae spores on combs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I remain amazed at the level of interest in the issue of nosema spores on combs. The issue may put the dancing angels out of work, and result in pinheads going out of business. I've got another edition of New York City's first-ever novice course to teach to somewhere between 40 and 70 students (depending on the snow) tomorrow and I am trying to chase down a working wireless mic, so I don't have time to respond in full to Randy. I'll just repeat a key part of my prior post, as Randy's comments hint that he has not yet read it. Long story short, while the spores certainly can and will be found on combs, and certainly can reinfect splits, shaken bees, and packages placed on that comb, there isn't a whole lot of value in knowing that any one box of comb has nosema spores. Here's why: : ...while someone certainly could publish data : saying that they found so many million spores : per gram of wax sampled, they would be unable to : draw any firm conclusion from the data, given : that residue levels are going to vary widely : from colony to colony within a yard, and also : vary widely for the same level of infection : based upon the weather. Bees confined to the : hive by bad weather will deposit more feces : on comb than bees that can fly every day. : : So, the focus is certain to remain on looking : at Nosema levels in samples of bees, as the : results would be more meaningful/useful. So, let me stress that spores on comb, while they are certain to exist both in colonies that currently suffer from either type of Nosema AND for some time after even a successful treatment, would be useless as a screening tool for current nosema problems, and also useless as a metric for assessment of the level of infection in any colony for the specific reasons I gave. So, I think I clearly explained how results from any analysis of comb for nosema would be one or all of three things: a) Statistically insignificant b) Clinically unimportant c) Useless in practical beekeeping Given Randy's comments, I can only assume that Randy is working on another of his articles, and does not want to hear from me yet again about killjoy details like statistical significance, clinical importance, or what I call practical (profitable) beekeeping. Randy did have one specific question I can answer quickly: > how the difference between acetic acid and irradiation > sterilization of combs implies that N ceranae spores are > on the combs. Nope, thats not what I said - what I said is that the equal success of acetic acid and irradiation indicated (at least to me) that what was being killed was Nosema on combs RATHER THAN A VIRUS SURVIVING ON THE COMBS. My reasoning is simple: 1) Irradiation at proper flux will kill everything 2) Acetic Acid fumigation will NOT reliably kill viruses > Both treatments kill Nosema spores, and somehow I'm not > understanding your reasoning. It is not what is killed, but is NOT reliably killed by the acetic fumigation. If the irradiation had worked better than the fumigation, I would have bought into the scenario posited where a virus would somehow survive on comb after turning a hive into a CCD dead-out. For those keeping score at home, beekeeping is still illegal in NYC, I have hives at undisclosed locations around Manhattan, and by teaching free novice courses, I am hand-crafting my own oppressed minority so we can hold rallies and such. ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 13:56:42 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: N Ceranae spores on comb. In-Reply-To: <007d01c97365$49f42d00$dddc8700$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > > >Sheesh Sorry Dick, but I think that you may have missed the point. We're not talking about counting spores. The question was, whether anyone has checked to see whether or not N ceranae spores *are even present* on the combs. We are hearing a lot of ASSUMPTIONS that spores would be present as they are for N apis. However, N apis causes bees to defecate on the combs. N ceranae doesn't. When I posed this question to the major researchers, they all thought that it was a valid question, and were a bit chagrined that no one could answer with actual data. Note that none of them were even tempted to offer an opinion, since they all realize that N ceranae is noted for not causing defecation. Randy Oliver ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 21:53:55 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Marron Subject: Re: N Ceranae spores on comb. In-Reply-To: <3dcef4a10901101356p53309462i252603cdd85be563@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>>>However, N apis causes bees to defecate on the combs. N ceranae doesn't.<<<< Are we now making the ASSUMPTION that defecation is the only way that spores get from the bees to the comb? Dick ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 22:48:50 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Steve_Noble?= Subject: Re: N Ceranae spores on comb. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit “We are hearing a lot of ASSUMPTIONS that spores would be present as they are for N apis. However, N apis causes bees to defecate on the combs. N. ceranae doesn't.” I have a question. Randy, is it your experience that bees would be unlikely to deficate on their comb for any other reason than that they had a N. apis infection? What do you think the likelihood would be that some defecation on comb would occur in a colony that was uninfected by N. apis? If, as I suspect, the likelihood would approach that of a virtual certainty, then wouldn’t that make this question of whether comb from a colony infected by N. ceranae is contaminated with N. ceranae spores a purely academic one? Wouldn’t you think that regardless of whether anyone had actually tested the comb it would be foolish not to assume that such comb has N. ceranae spores on it? I was also wondering if you asked those highly esteemed scientists why they never thought to check for N. ceranae spores on comb that had been occupied by bees that were infected with N. ceranae. That question really jumped out for me, and I hypothesized that it might have been because they had just assumed it was. What do you think? And Peter Edwards, feel free to add your wisdom here too. Thanks, Steve Noble ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 05:02:18 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juanse Barros Subject: Re: N Ceranae spores on comb. In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline a lot of ASSUMPTIONS ... I have allways assumpted (if that is the way one writes that word ;) 1.- that nosema spores was in honey 2.- that old frames will have a coating of honey and therefore spores. I do not assumpted that spores are in foundation since wax is heated above the heat tolerance of nosema spores. -- Juanse Barros J. APIZUR S.A. Carrera 695 Gorbea - CHILE +56-45-271693 08-3613310 http://apiaraucania.blogspot.com/ juanseapi@gmail.com ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 03:21:04 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Thompson Subject: More from the front Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit and something at end about nosema This is perhaps overdue #7 was ~nov7, chilled That's 25% winterkill before mid nov, have to call it "fall kill" And yes, I know VD control was semi failure Its the other symptoms/observations that make it unusual I'll think I've won if I have only 50% winterkill I won't win #7 was both PPB and ccd, about equal, d ~Nov7 For some reason in jun I thought that one would crash But then it got heavy and I forgot I looked after supers, spotty brood, and forgot twice The Q probably died mid-late aug, only 6 cells, only 2 good It looked like 1 emerged, but if there was a virgin she failed her role (If you try to raise a Q in a ccd hive, you won't get a Q, you must be insane!) Robbed out, 2 small (frozen) clusters 8" apart One tennis ball, other smaller No dead brood, avg on BB When I floundered in, dec 21 (1' snow, 200 yd) I went to this (7) to get sample, I knew it would be easy to get the handful Few snow angels around hives. No new (hive) mortality On the way out, I paused on the upslope, panting, and said look that lump is a bee under a thin white shroud and more, 5 ahead , and farther 5 more, and behind 5 and another 5 farther So that's 20 on only that path. If the hour(s) was to spare I could have picked up at least 500 corpses from the snow, up to 5d old by guess. Typical "flee" That they were all good flyers (no snow angels) suggests older bees, aug-sept?, perhaps 100-110d before intolerable?? gut pain?? or is it the smell? but this is just symptoms, not anything curative I don't know how to pick to breed from, nearly every choice that I have made has died The only selection that I can conceive is strongest in Spring, imply least affected life span or lucky Because of this, next yr I will (hopefully) induce supercedure by very heavy one sided wing clipping Young Qs is easier management than Zero VD (ccd Qs don't seem to live much more that 2 yrs) I'm going to have to feed OA, I don't like the idea You can't tell these hives are alive by any noise they make because they make none, You have to pull (3/4") plug & see NO noise Ozone. Did someone Randy? try O3 on nosema? What is the equipment? Cost? Question:(O3 vrs UV vrs bleach) vrs cost-benefit In my little campaign against ccd I've only got it in me for 5 years. I don't think I'm gonna win PS Today, jan10 I got back 4th nosema test BP says both samples are "negative" (as were 3 previous tests) I asked "only test for nosema" One of these was a ccd hive for sure dave ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 20:19:37 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: N Ceranae spores on comb. In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > > > I hypothesized that it might have been because they had > just assumed it was. That's likely, Steve. I have discussed the fact that we do not know the modes of transmission for N ceranae previously with several researchers. They are curious, but no one that I know has looked into it, except for Raquel Martin-Hernandez, who found infective spores in corbicular pollen. This conversation has gotten a little hot for me. Peter asked a simple relevant question with practical application. I'm surprised at the tenor of the responses, on and off list. I don't know why Peter's question is so threatening to others. It shouldn't be a difficult question to answer. I plan to wash some comb from an infected hive tomorrow. I hope to have Dave Westerveld, Florida Apiary Inspector, and Dr. Jerry Bromenshenk as witnesses. Randy Oliver ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 09:40:11 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Gavin Ramsay Subject: Re: N Ceranae spores on comb. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Randy > I plan to wash some comb from an infected hive tomorrow. If you are using mild methods to wash the combs (water only?) would it be worth feeding syrup laced with concentrated washings to a couple of nucs to see if it is still infective? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koch%27s_postulates all the best Gavin ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 11:11:18 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ruary Rudd Subject: Re: N Ceranae spores on comb. In-Reply-To: <007d01c97365$49f42d00$dddc8700$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Do we test the comb for AFB spores? I thought that what was tested was the scale (or the brood) within the comb for spores. If I am not right could I please have a protocol on testing COMB for AFB spores. Ruary -----Original Message----- On Behalf Of Dick Marron It seems to me that they could look in the book on how to test comb for AFB spores. It's been going on for a long time, no? Sheesh, Dick marron. ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 11:25:23 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ruary Rudd Subject: Re: N Ceranae spores on comb. In-Reply-To: <007d01c97365$49f42d00$dddc8700$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Do we test the comb for AFB spores? I thought that what was tested was the scale (or the brood) within the comb for spores. If I am not right could I please have a protocol on testing COMB for AFB spores. Ruary -----Original Message----- Dick Marron said It seems to me that they could look in the book on how to test comb for AFB spores. ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 11:34:30 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: N Ceranae spores on comb. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Are we now making the ASSUMPTION that defecation is the only way that > spores > get from the bees to the comb? > > Dick Hi Dick I am not making that assumption, but your point is valid. The reason for raising defaecation as a route for comb contamination was that we know that N apis causes bees to contaminate the comb in this way, but that N ceranae does not. Of course, bees with N ceranae may defaecate on comb for other reasons, e.g. moving colonies in cold weather or when they have not have a chance to fly to void in the days just before the move. Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers at stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 11:50:40 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: N Ceranae spores on comb. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Steve Noble wrote: > I was also wondering if you asked those highly esteemed scientists why > they > never thought to check for N. ceranae spores on comb that had been > occupied > by bees that were infected with N. ceranae. That question really jumped > out for me, and I hypothesized that it might have been because they had > just assumed it was. What do you think? And Peter Edwards, feel free to > add your wisdom here too. Thanks, but I really do not have much to add. My impression was that comb from CCD colonies had been tested for just about every known pathogen, so I am very surprised if N ceranae was not included. I think most of us would 'logically' expect the comb to be contaminated to some extent if the bees were carrying N ceranae, but what we think is logical does not always prove to be so. Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers at stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 09:01:12 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter L Borst Subject: N ceranae spores on combs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit NOSEMOSIS OF BEES SUMMARY To date, two microsporidian parasites have been described from honey bees: Nosema apis (Zander) and Nosema ceranae (Fries). Nosema apis is a parasite of the European honey bee (Apis mellifera) and Nosema ceranae of the Asian honey bee (Apis cerana) and the European honey bees). The latter has recently been detected in several geographically separated populations of European honey bees in Europe, South and North America and Asia. The pathological consequences of Nosema ceranae in Apis mellifera are not well known. In the following chapter, only Nosema apis is described. Both types are presumably very similar. The microsporidium Nosema apis (Zander) is a parasite of the adult honey bee that invades the epithelial cells of the ventriculus. Infections are acquired by the uptake of spores during feeding or grooming. The disease is transmitted among bees via the ingestion of *contaminated comb* material and water, and by trophallaxis; honey stores and crushed infected bees may also play a role in disease transmission. Spores are expelled with the faeces where they may retain their viability for more than 1 year. Spores may also remain infective after immersion in honey and in the cadavers of infected bees; however they may lose viability after 3 days when submerged in honey at hive temperature. The relative importance of faeces, honey and cadavers as reservoirs of infective spores is not fully understood. It is likely that faecal contamination of wax, *especially in combs* used for brood rearing, or other hive interior surfaces, provides sufficient inoculum for N. apis to be successfully transmitted to the next generation of bees. The relative importance of faeces, honey and cadavers as reservoirs of infective spores is not fully understood and it seems that temperature may have a marked effect on the rates at which spores lose viability, regardless of their medium (14) The spores are inactivated by acetic acid or by heating to 60°C for 15 minutes. To be effective, these treatments, which inactivate spores on hive surfaces, need to be combined with feeding colonies with the antibiotic fumagillin to suppress infections in live bees. Identification of the agent: In some acute cases, brown faecal marks are seen on the comb, with sick or dead bees in the vicinity of the hive. The majority of Nosema-infected colonies will appear normal, with *no obvious signs of disease* even when the disease is sufficient to cause significant losses in honey production and pollination efficiency. Autoinfections can occur at the same time as new infections. After a short interval, spores develop in large quantities. Infected bees are unable to fly and have been shown to be infected with up to 500 million spores. NOSEMOSIS OF BEES http://www.oie.int/eng/normes/en_mmanual.htm http://www.oie.int/eng/normes/mmanual/2008/pdf/2.02.04_NOSEMOSIS.pdf ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 10:03:27 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter L Borst Subject: N ceranae spores on combs In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline "The pathological consequences of Nosema ceranae in Apis mellifera are not well known. In the following only Nosema apis is described. Both types are presumably very similar." see: previous post > The hypothesis that soiled comb is the primary source of infection seems to be generally accepted ... BAILEY investigated old comb as a transmittor of Nosema apis between colonies, and concluded that soiled comb is the primary source of infection. ... comb replacement reduces nosema disease level in honey bee colonies. The present investigation supports the findings of BAILEY that old comb contributes to nosema disease. ... Data suggest that broodrearing contributes to the spread of the disease ... This supports the hypothesis of BAILEY (1955), where spores are ingested by the bees as they clean combs for the expanding brood nest. from: Fries, I. (1988) Comb replacement and Nosema disease (Nosema apis Z.) in honey bee colonies. Apidologie. 19: 343-354. * * * > Doull and Cellier, (1961) carried out a two year survey of the incidence of nosema disease of the honey bee in South Australia. They concluded that the disease, either in the form of a few infected bees or of spores on the combs, was present in all hives throughout the survey. from: Nosema Disease: Literature review and three year survey of beekeepers by Michael Hornitzky March 2008 RIRDC Publication ref: Doull, K. (1961) Nosema disease. The Australasian Beekeeper 62: 228-235. * * * Farrar (1947) provided evidence of the effect of transporting bees by finding a very high percentage of infected queens, as well as worker bees, in 'package bees' (bees which suffer long journeys from the south to the north of the U.S.A.). Usually the queen of a colony evades infection because she is fed by other bees and does not normally feed from infected combs, but she may be more readily infected when the colony is excited and the disease is being transmitted rapidly. In practice, therefore, it will be advisable not to transport infected colonies ... from: BAILEY L, . (1955). THE EPIDEMIOLOGY AND CONTROL OF NOSEMA DISEASE OF THE HONEY-BEE. Ann. Appl. Biol. 43 (3), 379-389. ref: FARRAR C,. L. (1947). Nosema losses in package bees as related to queen supersedure and honey yields. J. econ. Ent. 40, 333. -- Peter L Borst Danby, NY USA www.people.cornell.edu/pages/plb6 ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 10:05:08 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: Edward Bevan - A Scientific Apiarian Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >From the Historical Honeybee Articles site. Floriferis ut apes In saltibus omnla libant Second Special Notice, titled: The Bee. Huron Reflector Tuesday, May 02, 1843 Norwalk, Ohio =====Article Start===== >From the National Intelligencer. The Bee. “The Honey Bee: Its Natural History, Physiology, and Management, by Edward Bevan, with thirty-five engravings on wood," 8vo. pp. 128. Philadelphia, Carey & Hart. A subject always interesting, and an excellent book upon it. It is the good fortune of this noble, this wise, this singular little insect, to have attracted the studies of many men of genius and to have been celebrated by their pens;— which have, indeed, often been employed upon it with a peculiar delight. Favorites themselves of the Muses, their younger brothers, the poets, have loved them from the earliest times, and told how, along with a certain she-goat called Amalthea, they were the nurses of the infant Jove, who cherished them ever after, and bestowed upon them that admirable skill in government which they have practiced ever since. The Bee is, at any event, not a little the companion of civilized man. On this continent it marches with him, the pilot, the forerunner of his regular taking possession. When it first lent itself to human service we do not learn.— It seems certain, however, that it was known to use in very early times, since all those who describe the Golden Age agree in saying that honey gushed out of all the oak trees, and that every brook flowed with milk, (none of your sky-blue composition, skimmed first and profusely watered afterwards, as we get it in towns,) ready to eat with it. The heathen gods themselves, in those good old days, are supposed to have fed upon a better sort of it, culled probably from the immortal flowers of Elysium; for the famous ambrosia, on which they regaled themselves, is averred to have been like honey, only nine times sweeter; and their nectar was clearly only a superior kind of metheglin, of which the Olympian butler, Mr. Ganymede, jealously kept the recipe from all human eyes. Other Greek traditions attest the early domestication of the Bee, which that race probably brought with them from their Caucasian cradle, along that Scythian and Thracian route by which they came into Hellas. Virgil —a very learned authority in such remote matters attributes to Aristteus, the contemporary and the rival of Orpheus, the first taming and rearing of these little winged philosophers —a history which forms that beautiful episode in the Georgics Pliny, however, (as well as we recollect,) contends that the Bee was first introduced into Greece from Egypt by the colony which Cecrops led into Attica. That tale of Cecrops and his colony, however, we must beg Mr. Pliny to consider, is entirely passed over by Homer; so that it is evidently of posterior invention, and utterly improbable, in as much as the Egyptians were no sailors and inculcated a religious horror of the sea -a point in which every man of sense must still agree with them. But to proceed: the Bee was certainly well known to the Hebrews before they quitted the valley of the Nile, since the spies whom they send forward to explore the Promised Land return and report that it was "a land flowing with milk and honey." It would be talking like a commentator were we now to go on and argue ponderously, from this fuel, that they must have held that diet in habitual affection. A little lower down in Sacred History, one finds Samson constructing a riddle upon the occasion of his having swarmed a colony of Bees in a very singular hive -the carcass of a lion which he had slain. Later still, they must have abounded even in the desert parts of Palestine, since St. John the Baptist subsisted on them and locusts. To return however, to Hybla and Hymettus. The latter might well be the native scat of our insect, since it still flourishes there, surviving the poets who celebrated it there of old, the philosophers about whose lips it sometimes clustered, and every thing but the beauty of the skies and the blandness of the air. So at least Byron tells us when speaking of Attica: “Yet are thy skies as blue, thy crags as wild; Sweet are thy groves and verdant are thy fields, Thine olive ripe as when Minerva smiled, And still his honied wealth Hymcttus yields. There the blithe bee his fragrant fortress builds, The free born wanderer of thy mountain air: Apollo still thy lone, long summer gilds, Still in his beams Mcndeli's marbles glare- Art, Glory, Freedom fail, but Nature still is fair!” (All which, our readers Will see, is very pretty; though we could easily show, had we time, that his lordship did not come by it very honestly.) But to proceed: The Greeks, indeed, not only venerated Bees for their political skill -the image which the hive offers of a perfectly- ordered commonwealth -but for their taste in eloquence and poetry. Their clustering about the cradles of Plato, Pindar, Menander, and some Others was held to be a certain presage of harmonious prose or verse. The Greek, styled Bees, therefor, "the birds of the Muses." So, too, Milton seems to regard them, when he invokes the sound of their wings as one of the influences which the poet courts when he hides himself in some deep shade for the airy visits of imaginative dreams: “There, in close covert, by a brook Where no profaner eye may look, Hide me from day's garish eye, While the bee, with honied thigh, That at her flowery work doth sing, And the waters murmuring With, such concert as they keep Entice the dewy-feathered sleep.” In the wilder mythological inventions of the Scandinavians, which have the fancy, but not the grace, the taste, the singular elegance of the Greek fables, the Bee figures as affording, in mead or yet more potent metheglin, the refreshment with which their heroes and even their gods solaced themselves in that half- Mahomedan paradise, where they fed upon the perpetual flesh of a boar killed every day and reproduced on the morrow; washing it down with copious draughts of a richer hydromel, supplied (singularly enough) from the teats of the celestial goat Heidruna. It is thus that Gray talks, in his Gaelic and Runie translations, of “Nectar which the bees produce, Or the grape's ecstatic juice.” The latter potation is certainly added by the poets fancy, or from the necessities of the rhyme: for neither the Cambrians nor Scandinavians could have known such a liquor, except by report, their climate absolutely refusing it to them, and granting them no compensation but the drinks distilled from honey, or that saddest of all possible liquids, the horror of the Muses and Bacchus, beer, the most anti-poetical of all fluids, of which when one drinks, he gets duller just in proportion as he grows tipsier -a foul, thick, and oblivious drunkenness, the sottishness of which no single ray of exhilaration lights up. Mead, then, being the favorite beverage of the earlier Northern nations, the Bee was, of course, greatly an object of their care. Drinks prepared from honey thus remained one of the main household refections even down to the time of Queen Elizabeth; who appears, from a recipe that still preserves her name, to have prided herself on a particular skill in their preparation. With their favorite insect, it befel naturally enough that our ancestors associated those glad aerial creatures of their superstitions, the Fairies; whose sworn brothers and playmates they made the Bees to be, among the flower-cups which both frequented alike. Thus Ariel sings, in "the Tempest:” “Where the bee sucks, there suck I; In a cowslip's bell I lie; There I couch when owls do cry.” So, too, in the "Midsummer Night's Dream," the transformed Bottom, when tended by Titanin and her tiny crew of elves, desires the most valiant of them, Monsieur Cobweb, to get his tools of war, slay him a humble-bee, and bring him its pouch of honey: but, considerate of his stature, cautions him not to break the honey-bag, lest it half drown him. Bottom. “Where's Pease-blossom?” Pense blossom. “Ready.” Bottom. “Scratch my head, Pense-blossom. Where's Monsieur Cobweb?” Cobweb. “Ready.” Bottom. “Monsieur Cobweb! Good Monsieur, get your weapons in hand, and kill me a red hipp'd humble-bee on the top of a thistle; and, good Monsieur, bring me the honey-bag. Do not fret yourself too much in the action, Monsieur; and good Monsieur, have a care the honey bag break not: I would be loth to have you overflown with a honey-bag, good Signor.” The Bee is so perfectly the poetry and romance of all natural history, that one's fancy, upon such a subject, runs riot in all sorts of excursions. There are not wanting, however, much graver things to say of it; for their art of government presents, beyond question, a model of polity, such as human ingenuity has in vain striven to equal, and, perhaps, fails the more to equal, because it wanders too far from the wisdom of nature, is too ingenious, and sets up resorts too nice and complex; instead of the wise and easy simplicity of plain practice and things, giving us words, doctrine, and all that, which pay us off with sounds, instead of a healthy and right government. The Bees, in a word, are not at all addicted to abstractions. With them each State is the image of every other: first, perhaps, because they discovered that every race of insects, at least, if not of men, is happiest under that form of government to which the habits of the race have generally tended; and, secondly, because their occupations and the condition of their society being very where alike, they perceive that this identity should be reflected in their laws. For good laws and good government they know are not the attempted embodiment of universal truths, including every sort of circumstances and communities the most different, but laws modestly confining themselves to your own exact situation and necessities, and less to what you ought to be than to what you are. In point of form their governments may be said to be regal; but it is a royalty of affection and respect, not force- without an army, without courtiers, without slaves, with not a guard except that which the love of the whole people forms about the sovereign. It is, in a word, but a despotism as to the enforcement of the public good, to winch alone the thoughts of all orders are directed. In short, it is a perfect republic, under the guise of the government of one person, the head of the state, but in no sort its master. No rule can lie more paternal, or, rather, maternal; for, as is well known, the Bees are so far from having a Salique law, that none but a female can be their monarch. Thus far, briefly, of the Bees as politicians. But in truth we have written on, as yet, in humble imitation of what is now the approved mode of reviewing -that is to say, without ever touching the book ostensibly reviewed. At another time we will proceed after an older fashion, and give an exact account of our author, and whatever in his subject seems to us fittest to be presented to our readers. =====End Article===== You can read Bevans 1827 1st Edition Here The honey bee; its natural history, physiology, and management - 1827 By Edward Bevan http://www.archive.org/details/honeybeeitsnatur00bevarich Best Wishes, Joe Waggle Historical Honeybee Articles Floriferis ut apes In saltibus omnla libant http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/HistoricalHoneybeeArticles/ ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 15:44:31 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: N ceranae spores on combs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter L Borst > In the following > chapter, only Nosema apis is described. Both types are presumably very > similar. > NOSEMOSIS OF BEES > http://www.oie.int/eng/normes/en_mmanual.htm > http://www.oie.int/eng/normes/mmanual/2008/pdf/2.02.04_NOSEMOSIS.pdf Hi Peter I see that the chapter was written in 2008, but wonder why. It summarises the position with N apis well enough - but that is something that has already been well documented many times and which, I think, few of us would question. It is perhaps unfortunate that it then says: 'Both types are presumably very similar.' Once again we have a presumption without any evidence; indeed, when the paper was written some important differences were well-known. Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers at stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 11:13:18 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_L_Borst?= Subject: Re: N ceranae spores on combs Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Peter > It is perhaps unfortunate that it then says: 'Both types are presumably very similar.' I don't know about that. I am still wondering why anyone would "presume" that they are very different. That's what puzzles me personally Peter ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 11:15:09 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: FW: [BEE-L] Dwindling - now N ceranae spores on combs Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Someone contributed: … I seem to have been subjected to a vitriolic attack from Jim - >which I have to admit I almost enjoy in a sort of masochistic way - but feel >that I do not deserve it for asking such a simple question! Lurking here, I am enjoying this thread! But I agree with the above contributor that some responses lately have been a bit harsh. For lurkers reading, here is something to consider when evaluating EACH contributors presented letter. An inability of any person to respond to a question in a kind and factual manner, is something they, as well as the reader should be concerned about. For aggressive rhetoric type responses, even if presented with skill and wit, that attack the person OR have nothing to do with the question posed, is in itself, a public admission of failure of that person to support his or her position with facts ‘knowns’ and or citations as supporting evidence, as one might expect should occur on a list dedicated to informed discussion. A short motto I use is: “Facts lacking, resorts to rhetoric attacking” Someone contributed: >I am bemused by the focus on this minor point, I would propose that no scientist would let his opinion mitigate anything to ‘minor points’. Let science, and the facts dictate which points need mitigated to minor status. Sometimes minor points hold the most weight in the scientific methodry, for the best way to prove something, is to try and disprove it by seeing if it holds up against all minor points. Please continue with this great discussion! Best Wishes, Joe Waggle Historical Honeybee Articles Floriferis ut apes In saltibus omnla libant http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/HistoricalHoneybeeArticles/ ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 16:50:05 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: N ceranae spores on combs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I don't know about that. I am still wondering why anyone would "presume" > that they are very different. Hi Peter I am wondering why there is a need to 'presume' anything. One difficulty that we have here is the idea of something being 'similar' or 'very different'; surely these terms are subjective? My view, from what I have read so far, is that although there are obvious similarities, there are also very significant differences between the two, particularly with regards to their virulence and the damage done to the gut, the seasonal differences in outbreaks, and the 'defaecation effect'. Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers at stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 12:11:11 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter L Borst Subject: N ceranae spores on combs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Hi again According to my understanding, Nosema apis was often found in colonies with "dysentery" but there is no causal relationship between these. As I posted a few minutes ago, severe infections of Nosema apis may show no visible symptoms at all. My logic is that if insects infected with Nosema generally spread spores throughout their nests, then it would be safe to assume that the same would occur with Nosema ceranae in bees. This is one of the reasons why so many people have been recommending acetic fumigation or replacement of combs. Granted, the effects of N. c. may appear differently than N. a., but it does not necessarily follow that the mode of transmission would be different. As it is spore forming and highly contagious, it would be logical to assume that the hives would be a source of infection, the same as was concluded by Bailey regarding N. a. Again, I am not sure what difference it makes, because if the bees are still sick, it won't help much to put them on sterile combs. -- Peter L Borst Danby, NY USA www.people.cornell.edu/pages/plb6 ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 12:35:18 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Marron Subject: Request for clarificatio MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit . I seem to have been subjected to a vitriolic attack<<<< Hello Peter, I've been lurking and reading every word of bee-l for years. I,ve seen things get feisty and usually get some entertainment value from it. To characterize Jims post as "vitriolic" may itself contain some vitriol. I didn't see it and was surprised at your note. Dick Marron ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 12:54:28 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Marron Subject: N ceranae spores on comb. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Obviously there has been a lot of energy in this thread. I guess beekeepers have to get through the winter somehow. Do I smell an underlying premise that Nosema Ceranae just arrived and needs special attention? I know we thought this at first but later evidence showed that it's been here for years and moves hand in hand with Nosema Apis. Randy has written about how hard it is to tell them apart even when you are looking for it. (When we weren't looking it could slide past easier, no?) Much of what we know of Nosema in this country may well be the symptoms of the two travelling together. A bee containing both sorts, as Randy has pictured, could easily defecate in the combs due to N.apis with the N.cernae spores along as a passenger. A lot of our US bees can fly all year. I'm wondering about this feces in the comb as a given. Dick Marron ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 18:28:43 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ruary Rudd Subject: Re: N ceranae spores on comb. In-Reply-To: <000501c97415$a6d08b30$f471a190$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Has Randy got a photo with both types of Nosema from a bee? I know that he made a composite slide of the two type using Nosema apis spores which I sent him, and Nosema ceranae spores from his own apiary, but I did not know that he had both types in the one bee. Ruary -----Original Message----- A bee containing both sorts, as Randy has pictured, could easily defecate in the combs due to N.apis with the N.cernae spores along as a passenger. A lot of our US bees can fly all year. I'm wondering about this feces in the comb as a given. Dick Marron ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 14:30:42 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Marron Subject: Re: N ceranae spores on comb. In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Has Randy got a photo with both types of Nosema from a bee? ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Now I'm not sure. I do feel sure that I've seen this somewhere. Dick Marron ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 22:59:43 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Request for clarificatio MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dick Marron wrote: > I've been lurking and reading every word of bee-l for years. I,ve seen > things get feisty and usually get some entertainment value from it. To > characterize Jims post as "vitriolic" may itself contain some vitriol. I > didn't see it and was surprised at your note. Hello Dick I am surprised at the subject line of your post. If we remove [BEE-L] and add the letter 'n' to 'clarificatio' it would be precisely the same as the subject line of an email that Jim sent to me, but which does not seem to have appeared on the list. Remarkable co-incidence. However, to answer your point, are we not again in subjective territory? Perhaps you - and Jim - have a different view from mine as to what is, or is not, vitriolic; emails that I have received off-list, together with previous reactions Jim's periodic outbursts, suggest that my view prevails. But enough of this - it does not advance our of knowledge of bees which is the reason (I think I can safely assume, for once) that we subscribe to this excellent list. Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers at stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 14:51:10 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy oliver Subject: Re: More from the front In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > > >Ozone. Did someone Randy? try O3 on nosema? Dave, I think that the first thing we should confirm is that there are viable spores on the combs that need to be sterilized! I have not tried O3 yet. > I got back 4th nosema test > BP says both samples are "negative" > (as were 3 previous tests) Again, nosema infection does not appear to be necessary for CCD. The good news for you, Dave, is that if you breed from survivors in your operation, the first indications are that CCD may run its course in about two years. Please do not hold me to this number, it is only a preliminary observation. Randy Oliver ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 18:50:37 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Darrell Subject: Re: N ceranae spores on combs In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 10-Jan-09, at 8:51 AM, Peter L Borst wrote: > > Sterilizing comb is just a precaution against reinfection, which > probably is not even worth the trouble. If you are feeding fumagillin > the bees will be protected from reinfection from combs. Sterilizing > the combs would only be worthwhile if you were assured that you > restocked with bees that were nosema free and that they weren't going > to pick it up soon from somebody else's sick bees. Or, if you had in > mind avoiding antibiotics at all costs, acetic acid is certainly an > intelligent alternative, though expect it to do nothing to kill the > nosema in the bees. > Hi Peter and all At a recent Dufferin Beekeepers meeting our speaker, a well known researcher, said that while fumagillin is effective in controlling NC in the bees it does nothing to the spores on the combs. The reverse, he said, is true of acetic acid as it is not used while bees are on the comb. He did say, however, that in his opinion for the long term control of nosema, acetic fumigation would be his choice if he had to use only one treatment. He recommended rotating out brood combs from surviving hives for fumigation as well. Bob Darrell Caledon Ontario Canada 44N80W PS: I didn't name the researcher because I didn't obtain his permission before posting. ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 19:38:54 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?UTF-8?Q?Peter_L_Borst?= Subject: Re: N ceranae spores on combs Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >At a recent Dufferin Beekeepers meeting our speaker, a well known >researcher, said that while fumagillin is effective in controlling NC >in the bees it does nothing to the spores on the combs. Yes, well, neither one of them will prevent the bees from picking it up through shared water supplies or robbing, but fumagillin may prevent nosema from killing a hive pb ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 18:12:47 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: FW: [BEE-L] Dwindling - now N ceranae spores on combs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I found a basic disconnect, and can show all parties that there was apparently a mere semantic difference here, which I'd like to resolve with a definition of the term "dead-out comb": "Dead-Out Comb" - The drawn wax in a frame, AND ITS CONTENTS as found in a dead-out colony. So, yet again, "Do combs in CCD dead-outs contain Nosema ceranae spores?" We can say "yes", for several different compelling reasons: 1) The short-term advantage resulting from disinfecting dead-out combs with EITHER irradiation or acetic acid fumigation, showed that was what being killed was Nosema, rather than viruses. (Refer to the MAAREC press releases and the talks I cited by Dennis vanEngelsdorp about the attempts to sterilize dead-out combs.) 2) The detection of Nosema ceranae spores even in pollen collected in pollen traps gives us a big hint as to how combs become infected/infested/contaminated, and also give the spores a "media" to live in. (See the two papers cited below) 3) Symptoms of Nosema apis are well-understood, and include diarrhea-like symptoms. Bees with BOTH Nosema apis and Nosema ceranae in their midguts at the same time (the best-correlating pathogens to CCD symptoms ever found), are going to defecate, resulting in spores of BOTH Nosemas lying around on comb (not merely in/on pollen cells), despite the contention that Nosema ceranae does not itself have diarrhea-like symptoms. It doesn't, but it doesn't matter. Bees will commonly have both, as this is what is consistently found in CCD hives. Details Below ============= These two papers by Higes (Spain) will explain how pollen is a known vector for the spread of Nosema ceranae: http://tinyurl.com/9f2kn3 or http://cals.arizona.edu/ento/courses/ento446_546/readings/Higes_2008.pdf http://tinyurl.com/8v97wh or http://www.honeybee.org.au/pdf/Nosema_Ceranae_Environmental_Microbiology_200 8.pdf So, as this pollen is stored in combs, could the pollen alone be the sole mechanism for Nosema to be spread? Yes. Now, are the combs containing this pollen "contaminated"? I certainly would say so. But Peter (and later, Randy) would likely say that contaminated POLLEN does not make for "contaminated comb", in that the wax itself is perhaps free of Nosema spores. I'll offer my point (3) above as a mechanism by which the wax comb itself can become infected/infested with Nosema ceranae spores even in areas free of any pollen. But even if the pollen is the only vector, the disconnect is mere semantics - the pollen can't be removed from all the cells in all the combs of a dead-out, so, from a practical standpoint, the whole comb must be treated, either with acetic or irradiation, and lacking such treatment, the comb is still "contaminated". To see that what correlates best to CCD is not one, but BOTH types of Nosema at the same time, see the supplements to the Sept 2007 "Science" paper for the data: http://bee-quick.com/reprints/dedetails.pdf Joe said: > "Facts lacking, resorts to rhetoric attacking" Which sounds just like a rhetorical attack in itself, as Joe offered no facts, yet had pointed comments about the people participating in the discussion. ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 02:23:36 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juanse Barros Subject: Re: N ceranae spores on comb. In-Reply-To: <001501c97423$1830f9b0$4892ed10$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I had both types on one sample as determined by Dr Higes from Spain the 12/28/2007 -- Juanse Barros J. APIZUR S.A. Carrera 695 Gorbea - CHILE +56-45-271693 08-3613310 http://apiaraucania.blogspot.com/ juanseapi@gmail.com ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 21:22:29 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: FW: [BEE-L] Dwindling - now N ceranae spores on combs Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Someone contributed: >Joe said: > >> "Facts lacking, resorts to rhetoric attacking" > >Which sounds just like a rhetorical attack in itself, >as Joe offered no facts, yet had pointed comments >about the people participating in the discussion. Well I will offer the fact that lurkers are forced to read that crap. Let another fact show that I made comment about the material that was written, and in NO way did I make pointed comments towards any person. Another fact is that I go out of my way to reference quotes as ’someone contributed’, meaning that you are responsible for your contributions, and they are subject to comment, I don’t care to attack any person. Its not your fault, but if moderators watch more closely what you are saying, this might help stop the rhetorical and personal attacks. Again, its not 'you as a person', but 'what you are saying' that perhaps needs some attention. Please continue, I am enjoying the discussion! Joe ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 00:45:59 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: N ceranae spores on comb. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Do I smell an underlying premise that Nosema > Ceranae just arrived and needs special attention? Well, as one of the few who invested in bulk quantities of Fumagillin every year a decade or more before is was fashionable to worry about Nosema, I can certainly echo what others have noted - we have a new or different problem of late - Nosema that won't stay gone after a single treatment in spring. No one reported this in 2000 or 2001. To me, that says either: a) The Nosema ceranae is "new to" or "newly virulent in" many more hives. b) The Fumagillin being sold now is not anywhere near as effective as the non-discontinued Mid-Con Fumidil-B. and we aren't getting control over the same old pathogens we've had around for a while. Highly unlikely, but it is scary to have only a single source, isn't it? > I know we thought this at first but later evidence showed > that it's been here for years and moves hand in hand with > Nosema Apis The data table on Page 7 of this document http://bee-quick.com/reprints/dedetails.pdf the supplemental details for the 09/2007 paper in "Science", states that all bee samples taken from "CCD" hives tested positive for both Nosema apis and Nosema cerana, as did the "imported bees" (Australia). Interestingly, the samples from hives judged to not be showing signs of CCD showed as follows: Penn State non-CCD samples showed Nosema Apis, but not Nosema ceranae. Hawaii non-CCD samples showed Nosema ceranae but not Nosema Apis. I don't think we need to worry about photos when we can ID them with much more reliable tools than eyeballs. :) ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 06:35:47 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: FW: [BEE-L] Dwindling - now N ceranae spores on combs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm still unclear, if N. Ceranae doesn't cause dysentery, how the combs become contaminated. Is it maybe the bees that are unfortunate enough to have both sorts of Nosema at the same time who are the culprits? Has N. ceranae been found on combs in the absence of N.Apis? Chris ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 12:33:15 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lennard Pisa Subject: Re: FW: [BEE-L] Dwindling - now N ceranae spores on combs In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In theory=2C microparasites (parasite strains) competing for hosts show inc= reased virulence (due to selection for rapid multiplication/increased infec= tiousness). Maybe this plays a role for the Nosema duo? =20 regards=2C Lennard _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/= ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=3Dbee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 08:00:56 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Bill_Lord?= Subject: sugar pumps Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I am curious to know what types of pumps are in use to pump liquid feed. I use a 4.9 GPM Sur-flow 12 volt pump to pump sugar solution through a 100 foot hose. I run the pump off a marine battery independent of the truck and have an inline filter (T-Jet) placed in front of the pump intake to pick up any particulates. The hose is mounted on a hose reel and I use a 200 gallon 'tote' for the liquid feed. I use an aluminum gas nozzle to dispense the feed. This set-up works pretty well but my pump is nearing the end of its useful life and I would like to go with a higher volume 12 volt pump. The only problem I have with this set-up is purging air from the line from the tank to the pump when the tank gets low and the sugar solution sloshes around. I installed a 'T' with a cut off valve on the T that allows me to purge the air, so that solves the problem most of the time. Does anyone have suggestions on higher volume 12 volt pumps? thanks, Bill Lord Louisburg, NC ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 07:22:04 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John & Christy Horton Subject: sugar pumps MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill wrote: > I am curious to know what types of pumps are in use to pump liquid feed. > I use a 4.9 GPM Sur-flow 12 volt pump to pump sugar solution through a 100 > foot hose. I run the pump off a marine battery independent of the truck > and have an inline filter (T-Jet) placed in front of the pump intake to > pick up any particulates. The hose is mounted on a hose reel and I use a > 200 gallon 'tote' for the liquid feed. I use an aluminum gas nozzle to > dispense the feed. Bill, I have been contemplating(with a friend of mine) buying a portable pump for sugar syrup. Never would have thought of using (what appears to be) a water pump to pump syrup. Is the Shur flow pump you are using just a standard inexpensive Shur flow pump? Sorry, I am not answering your question but am asking one! Any response would be appreciated, including a very rough estimate of the life and cost of the pump Thanks much John Horton ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 09:09:38 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Peter_L_Borst?= Subject: Re: FW: [BEE-L] Dwindling - now N ceranae spores on combs Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Mon, 12 Jan 2009 06:35:47 EST, Chris Slade wrote: >I'm still unclear, if N. Ceranae doesn't cause dysentery, how the combs become contaminated. Sorry to have to just blurt it out, but the shit is all over the place. The following refers to viruses but *in my opinion* would also include bacteria, microsporidia, pathogens of any sort. > Fecal–oral transmission spreads pathogens by transferring feces of diseased hosts to uninfected hosts via ingestion and is strongly suspected in environments with overcrowded conditions. Honey bee colonies with densely crowded populations should be a favorable condition for this transmission route. > Evidence of a fecal-borne transmission route of viruses in honey bees has been provided by the detection of viruses in feces and digestive tracts of bees. Chen et al. demonstrated the presence of two viruses BQCV and DWV in the feces freshly defecated by individual queens. Among samples examined for viruses, 100% of feces samples tested positive for the presence of BQCV, and 90% of feces samples tested positive for the presence of DWV. Findings by Chen et al. were consistent with previous reports that viruses were found in the feces of worker bees. > Detection of viruses in feces of bees suggests the possibility of the existence of foodborne transmission in honey bees, where infected bees eliminate viruses in their feces and uninfected bees can be infected by feeding on feces-contaminated food or by cleaning the infected bees’ feces accumulated in the hive. > Oral infection of viruses by contaminated food can be further traced by examination of the digestive gut for virus infections. The studies showed that the same viruses found in feces were also detected in the digestive tract of the bees, providing further evidence of the ingestion of virus-contaminated food and the existence of foodborne or fecal–oral transmission routes in honey bees. Honey bee viruses. Chen YP, judy.chen@ars.usda.gov USDA-ARS, Bee Research Laboratory, Beltsville, Maryland 20705, USA. ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 09:04:06 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: sugar pumps MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My experience with bilge pumps has been that pumping feed is going to get you anywhere between half and two-thirds the gallons per minute claimed for the pump, even with a short hose and a 250-gallon tote on a trailer, making for a downward flow of feed and good static head pressure. In the hull of a boat, where they have no excuse for it, I find that all brands tend to overstate their capacity by about 15% or so, but in a boat, the pumps are always below the water line, pumping water up. Clearly, the 100-foot hose is going to be the major source of additional friction in your set-up. I never tried a hose that long. I'm impressed that you were able to pump feed through a hose that long with a mere bilge pump. If your hose is corrugated, rather than smooth, that's even more friction. Opening up the fill port on the tank might also improve flow, which would mean that the vents are too small for your thick syrup. Everything is "designed" for thin liquids like plain water. An inverter on the truck to provide 110 volts AC might expand your pump choices, but the other pump brands that marine supply companies tend to carry with which I am familiar are: Rule: I'd stay away, based on their cheap float switches Jabsco: Never heard anyone cursing at one Attwood: These will be quick to melt if you let your voltage drop below the required 12 volts, but any pump will die quickly if you run it for long at low voltage. (You can guess from this comment which pump I melted in my boat!) I don't have a better idea on the air purging. ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 11:11:34 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Claude Hachey Subject: Re: sugar pumps MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here is the setup we use for pumping syrup. Powered by a 5HP Honda "trash" pump. The "T" in the line before the pump was used as an intake when filling the bulk tank but we now use the boom on the 5 ton truck to empty barrels directly into the tank. Dismantling the pump for cleanup is easily done to prevent corrosion of the seals from the syrup. A ball valve is used at the end of the feeder hose and there is negligible pressure buildup between fillings and no bypass was necessary. http://s32.photobucket.com/albums/d17/claudehachey/?action=view¤t=HPIM0431.jpg http://s32.photobucket.com/albums/d17/claudehachey/?action=view¤t=HPIM0429.jpg http://s32.photobucket.com/albums/d17/claudehachey/?action=view¤t=HPIM0428.jpg ----- ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 10:38:16 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Steve_Noble?= Subject: Re: FW: [BEE-L] Dwindling - now N ceranae spores on combs Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit "I'm still unclear, if N. Ceranae doesn't cause dysentery, how the combs become contaminated." Chris and all, last spring I had a couple of hives that showed considerable streaking on the front and on the top bars. I thought for sure they had Nosema. I had just finished reading Randy Oliver’s excellent series on Nosema and was inspired to take a sample of the feces down to the local middle school science lab and look at it under a microscope. The science teacher there is a friend and a fellow beekeeper. Neither of us could find anything that looked like spores. I saw a lot of what I thought was digested pollen spores but nary a single N. spore. I didn’t try looking at the contents of the guts of any bees, which I should have. But what this tells me is that it is highly likely that bees do not have to have Nosema to crap in and on their hive. One of those two or three hives did wind up not making it into the summer, but the other(s) did well and are still around, further indication that they did not have Nosema. At one point or another I have seen feces, not necessarily a lot, in just about every hive I have had. Here in the N.W. U.S.A. we tend to have long, cool, wet winters. Bees stay cooped up for months on end. I know that the preferred method of elimination for bees is to take a short flight, but you gotta go when you gotta go, and sometimes you just can’t bring yourself to hang it out there in the cold wet wind. I can also imagine other ways besides fecal contamination of comb that might easily result in transmission of spores from bee to bee and colony to colony. Beyond that, I do think this whole issue of N. apis and N. ceranae means of transmission could stand some closer scrutiny beyond that which it is getting here on the merry-go-round we call Bee-L. Stev Noble ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 11:22:45 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: FW: [BEE-L] Dwindling - now N ceranae spores on combs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Certainly dysentery can be caused by other things than Nosema - feeding on sweets that have too much solid matter for example. What is the time table for N. Cerana in killing the bee? With N.Apis the bee's lifespan might be shortened by just a few days (which might be enough to make the difference between a hive being profitable or not). Does N. ceranae kill that much quicker? Chris ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 13:15:41 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Peter_L_Borst?= Subject: Re: FW: [BEE-L] Dwindling - now N ceranae spores on combs Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Mon, 12 Jan 2009 11:22:45 EST, Chris Slade wrote: >What is the time table for N. Cerana in killing the bee? > Nosema free honeybees were inoculated with 125,000 N. ceranae spores, isolated from heavily infected bees. Total mortality on day 7 was 94.1% in the three infected replicates and by day 8 no infected bee was alive. > N. ceranae is highly pathogenic to Apis mellifera. Possible relation with bee depopulation syndrome (CCD) is discussed by authors. -- Experimental infection of Apis mellifera honeybees with Nosema ceranae (Microsporidia), Mariano Higes, et al, Available online 10 January 2007. ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 17:28:01 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill T Subject: NC- Request for enlightenment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Interesting following the several threads on comb contamination. But it seems there is an issue here that seems not to have been cleared up. How does NC ever get to the hive in the first place? My guess is bees from away (as we would say in Maine), but maybe there are papers that do discuss the transmission of NC so possibly the moment of the disease is well known. What is also interesting is if it is not on the combs, then how does it further contaminate bees that go onto comb that had NC bees? My only guess here is honey and pollen left over. But that would be "comb contamination". BTW, there is a new study on the effect of cocaine on beekeepers. Like their bees, they also dance differently. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 21:54:38 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "=?windows-1252?Q?J._Waggle?=" Subject: Re: Edward Bevan - A Scientific Apiarian Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >From the Historical Honeybee Articles site. Floriferis ut apes In saltibus omnia libant This is the third and final Special Notice, titled: BEVAN ON THE BEE. — Second Notice. Huron Reflector Tuesday, May 09, 1843 Norwalk, Ohio =====Article Start===== >From the national Intelligencer. The Bee. BEVAN ON THE BEE. — Second Notice. In an introduction the author gives a concise account of the rise and progress of the study of this special branch of entomology, enumerating the authors who have elucidated that matter the most, and giving a view of the main ones on natural history in general. Without recurring to the wise King of the Hebrews, who seems to have cultivated all the natural sciences, but of whose particular labors in them we know nothing, except from the account given us by Josephus — who evidently attributes to Solomon all the knowledge current in his own day — it may be said that Homer's Odyssey contains no small body of natural history and of geography, though both largely mixed with the marvelous. So, too, of Herodotus's Muses, which are half travel and half history; describing, in every instance, each country and all its wonders, as he tells, the story of its public fortunes. We collect from more fortunate writers, whose works have not, like theirs, perished, that Aristomachus, of Soli, (the Athenian colony in Cilicia,) and Philiscus, of Thasos, were the first to apply themselves methodically to the observation of the habits of the Bee. The former of these philosophers is said to have consumed no less than fifty-eight years of his life in admiring and investigating their manners and policy: the latter spent so large a part of his time in the woods and fields, contemplating these industrious insects, that he received the nickname of Agrius, (the rustic,) a title which Aristaeus had borne before him. The observations of both these early apiarists must have formed an important body of information to those who next prosecuted the science, and no doubt were the basis of the subsequent labors of the learned Aristotle, the vast range of whose thought embraced and systematized all the knowledge of his day. To him succeeded his pupil Theophrastus; after whom natural history made little further progress among the ancients. If the zoological labors of Aristotle have in general perished, except fragments, we know at least that Fate has made him compensation as to whatever he had written of the Bee; for it was his researches which Virgil, some three hundred years later, embodied in the most admirable of all poems on rural affairs. The fourth book of the Georgis contains a history of the Bee much the most charming ever written, and as correct as could well be composed, until the invention by Maraldi, in the beginning of the eighteenth century, of the glass hive, an aid without which observation could go little further. But to return: Columella and some of the other Roman writers on rural economy, with the encyclopedic Natural History of Pliny, offer some little further research as to the Bee; but have probably done scarcely any thing but to copy Aristotle and Theophrastus. During the long interval of the middle ages, when science of every sort lay abandoned except by the Arabians, natural history was forgotten save in the single branch of chemistry; and it was not till the time of Conrad Gesner's copious History of Insects (not published till 1634, long after his death) that entomology began to take the form of a science. Later in the same century came Goedart, who applied himself for some forty years to the study; Swammerdam, whose valuable "General History of Insects" was first published in 1669; Maraldi, who devoted much time to the Bee; and Ray and Willoughby, whose "Historia Insectorum" is full of important observations, much assisted by the use of powerful microscopes. To these succeeded the exact and philosophic labors of Reaumur, who greatly enlightened natural history; Linnaaus, a still more eminent name; and Bonnet, the able and candid Swiss physiologist. Sehirach, Hunter, and Huber bring down the series of skillful elucidators of natural history almost to our own day. Besides these, Dobbs, Knight, Sir C.S. Mackenzie, Newport, Dunbar, and some other Britons have illustrated, in a particular manner, the history of the Bee. Thus far of the history of Bee writers. We pass now with our author, to the physiology of the insect itself. Naturalists place it in the order hymenoptera and genus Apis. Of this genus, many species have been enumerated. Kirby has described no less than two hundred and twenty sorts as natives of England only. Like the English monarchy, that of our particular subject, the species known as the domestic or honey Bee, embraces three orders, not ill resembling king, lords and commons. The queen is not only the acknowledged head and representative of the nation, but its common source of population, her ample loins pouring out annually as many young as are necessary to keep up the numbers of the hive; which are rarely less than twelve thousand, and rise to perhaps fifty or sixty thousand where abundant room is offered them. The lives of the workers are now supposed not usually to exceed three or four months, except while in the torpid state. Thus the entire population of the hive is probably re-produced some three times in the year: and we thus get something like a measure of her queenship's prolific powers. The drones or males are at once her majesty's nobles and husbands, dividing with her the administrative care of the State, the official trusts, and the parental functions. They are the office-holders and politicians; having, in general, little to do but to buz about royalty, pay their court, eat the fat and the sweat of the land, and talk politics. Their number varies with the strength of the hive, from fifteen hundred to two thousand. They seem to be, for nobles and husbands, rather unwarlike; for they possess no stings. On the whole, as they neither fight nor work, but only make love, they must have rather an easy time of it. Still, as we do not choose to injure any body's character, we feel bound to say that, if they mix not in the ordinary tasks of the operative Bees, it is the fault of nature, and not theirs: for she has furnished them with neither the sort of trowel to the jaws, with which the workers manage the wax, nor the baskets to the legs, in which they collect their fragrant spoil from the flowers. They labor not, then, because they have higher functions to perform, of a far loftier consequence to the public weal. And their wise and just fellow-citizens, content that each order in the State should discharge its appropriate duty, murmur not, nor stigmatize them as non-producers, nor rail nor roar at them us aristocrats; but recognize their utility in the peculiar part which has been assigned them of the public business, and submit with cheerfulness to their exemption from inferior tasks, inappropriate as well as impossible to these general fathers of the Bee people. Last come they of the third sex, the workers, formerly held to be neuters, but now ascertained to be undeveloped females; for the stimulant of a particular diet seems capable of converting them into breeding queens whenever there is a failure in the supply of royal personages. They are smaller and plainer in their persons than the rest: they have a trunk, mandibles, and thighs of a peculiar structure; and they are armed with a straight sting, while that of the queen is longer and curved. They are therefore both the artisans and the soldiery of the hive, replenishing it in peace and defending it in war. Nor do they disdain to stoop from these higher offices of the citizen to humbler, but equally useful ones; they mind the children, (as we must call the young maggots,) supply them, with pap, and do the other general duties of dry-nursing; they stand sentry at the mouth of the hive, form guards of honor about the queen, and manage the whole police of their busy little city. In short Nature, as if to show that she has prudence enough to do any thing, and as if to give the lie to the only universal rule of politics in which we have any faith, (namely, that females have no business to meddle with government,) appears to have taken pleasure in reversing, through every part of this Amazonian republic, whatever is safe every where else, and yet calling out of the flagrant solecism or anomaly an order the most admirable and results the happiest. Here the females alone wear weapons, while the males are timorous and harmless. The softer sex is not only braver but uglier than the rougher one. Domi Militiaque (as the Romans say) at home and abroad, the ladies lord it over the whole State, not only wearing the breeches, but vindicating their fitness for them by a masculine courage and energy. None of the vices usually said to attend a female reign are found in this insect microcosm. Favorites, the customary plague of a feeble dominion, do not infest the hive, seizing upon all public officers, and governing the monarch, while they themselves are governed by their lackeys. What is still stranger, the commonwealth does not appear to be one of tongues. There is no chatter, no scolding. Of course there is conversation; but it seems never to rise above a gentle murmur, or, at most, a hum of displeasure. But, upon the whole, it is difficult to conceive a more peaceful, resigned, and probably happy state of hen-peckdom than that in which the Bee husbands live. Besides the ascertained functions that we have mentioned, there are not wanting other singular ones, which some of the Bee students have imagined. Among such we may place the idea which some observers have entertained, that the drones sit upon the eggs to hatch them. Now though it has been said that some of the Algerine bashaws compel Christian captives who won't work to do (invested in a sort of pair of feathery unmentionables) the duty of setting hens, and hatch chicks and ducklings, it is incredible that in so mild and just a community as that of the Bees any mortification yet crueler and more degrading than those we have described should be inflicted upon the masculine sex. In addition to the characteristic difference of the workers from the other Bees, certain ones are seen, usually on the eve of swarming, to bear upon the middle of their frontlets a kind of light-colored top-knot, which seems to be formed of some tenacious foreign substance. This, we can hardly help concluding, must be a mark of command which designates their military leaders, or their architects. Individuals they certainly have who preside over certain parts of their work, and direct any of their deviations from their usual mode of building which particular circumstances may require; for the Bee, let it be remarked, is far from always pursuing the same plan of structure, and often displays judgment and invention in the manner in which he surmounts a difficulty or repairs a mishap. How the eggs are deposited, and their progressive development into full grown queens, drones, or workers, we have not time to describe. For all these things, involving many curious particulars, we must refer to the first chapter of our author. Among the fanciful notions to which the many singular facts of the bee-economy have given rise, it is one that the workers not only display a very affectionate care of the young bees, as soon as disengaged from the sealed-up cells in which they are bred, but even give them a course of preliminary instruction in the active duties upon which they are speedily to enter —in short, that they have a system of free schools. Certainly, in a state like theirs, where every thing is in common, (for they are agrarians, though monarchists,) there would be no injustice in educating every body at the public expense. The thing might therefore be so, without any taking of one man's property for another's benefit. But Mr. Bevan discredits, from observation, the whole notion; having continually witnessed the total unconcern with which the workers trample over the heads of the young of their own class who are breaking out of their nurseries. On the other hand, he has remarked a very manifest tenderness towards the young drones; whom they aid in emerging from their cells, and releasing themselves from the swadling-clothes in which nature wraps them; after which they regale them with a little honey, and then fall to cleaning out the empty cell, to fit it for a new egg, or for the reception of honey. When the larva or worm, which is hatched from the egg, has grown to the full capacity of the cell, the workers seal it over with wax; and it then begins to spin about itself cocoon. Enclosed in this, its wings and legs develop themselves and in a few days it is ready to cut its way out, a perfect, though weak and tender young bee. The queens, however—of whom as many as seven or eight are sometimes in progress at once—form a cocoon which covers but a part of their bodies, leaving them exposed to the sting of an adverse queen, who may, by the right of primogeniture, attain to royalty before them: in which event, guided by instinct, or by that policy which will ‘Bear, like the Turk, no brother near the throne,' the new princess never fails immediately, as the first step towards securing her throne, to seek and destroy every rival pretender that her subjects will let her at. This part of the bee-manners is so curious, that we must extract the passage of Bevan entire, the first paragraph of which (it will be remarked) is a citation from Huber: 'Such,' says Huber, 'is the instinctive comity of young queens to each other, that I have seen one of them, immediately on its emergence from the cell, rush to those of its sisters, and tear to pieces even the imperfect larva. Hitherto,' he adds, 'philosophers have claimed our admiration of Nature for her care in preserving and multiplying the species. But from those facts we must now admire her precautions in exposing certain individuals to a mortal hazard.' 'A curious circumstance occurs with respect to the hatching of the queen bee. When the pupa or nymph is about to change into the perfect insect, the bees render the cover of the cell thinner, by gnawing away part of the wax, scooping it out in waved circles at its edges; and with so much nicety do they perform this operation, that the cover at last becomes pellucid, owing to its extreme thinness, thus facilitating the exit of the fly. After the transformation is complete, the young queens would, in common course, immediately emerge from their cells, as workers and drones do; but the former generally keep the royal infants prisoners for some days, supplying them in the mean time with honey for food, a small hole being made in the cover of each cell, through which the confined bee extends its proboscis to receive it. The royal insects continually utter, while thus imprisoned, and whether imprisoned or not, a kind of song called piping, the modulations of which are sufficiently marked to make them readily distinguishable from each other. They consist of several monotonous notes in rapid succession, and Huber supposed the working bees to ascertain, by the loudness of these tones, the ripeness of their queens. 'Probably the young queens are thus temporarily imprisoned the more completely to ensure success to them in their first efforts to fly, which would seem to be an object of considerable importance: in furtherance of this, they are provided with capacious cells, which, by enabling them to expand their wings before they emerge, fit them for immediate flight; whereas the workers and drones issue from their cells with folded wings. 'It has been said that the queen is a good deal harassed by the other bees upon her liberation, which has been attributed to their endeavor to compel her departure with a swarm as soon as possible. It has also been said that her majesty has the power of instantly putting a stop to this occasional worrying by uttering a peculiar noise, which has been called the 'voice of sovereignty.’ But these notions arc probably erroneous. With respect to the first, it will, I think, be made apparent hereafter that the queen is never harassed by the bees on her liberation, except when she attempts to tear open the cells of her rivals: and as to the voice of sovereignty, I am not aware that any apiarian of the present day has ever witnessed an instance of its overawing effect. Mr. Dunbar, though he has seen her majesty raising her voice in the angry attitude described by Huber, never had any evidence of its impressing the bees with fear. Bonner has also declared that he never could observe in the queen any thing like an exercise of sovereignty. Not withstanding his want of evidence, however, among the generality of modern apiarians, we have the positive statement of Huber in favor of this vox regalis. He declares that he has heard it on various occasions, and witnessed the striking effect which it has always produced. On one occasion, he observes, that a queen, having escaped the vigilance of her guards and sprung from the cell, was, on her approach to the royal embryos, pulled, bitten, and chased by the other bees. But standing with her thorax against a comb and crossing her wings upon her back, keeping them motion, but not unfolding them, she emitted a particular sound, when the bees became, as it were, paralyzed, and remained motionless. Taking advantage of this dread, she rushed to the royal cells: but the sound having ceased as she prepared to ascend, the guardians of the cells instantly took courage and fairly drove her away, This voice of sovereignty is described as a very distinct kind of clicking, composed of many notes in the same key, which follow each other rapidly. Butler speaks of the voice of the queen, and says that he has sometimes heard her raise it to a high pitch, (sounding like the sharp note of a flute,) but not as producing a paralyzing effect upon the bees; on the contrary, he refers to it as being uttered when she wishes the workers to face an enemy, to 'fight for their prince, their lives, and their goods.' When piping, prior to the issue of an after-swarm, the bees that are near her remain still, with a slight inclination of their heads, but whether impressed by fear or not seems doubtful. 'Whether the queen possesses the influential power ascribed to her of overawing the workers or not, it is universally allowed that there is a considerable degree of stateliness and dignity in all her movements—a stateliness which till very lately was regarded as being upheld by the appointment of d regular court of attendants to pay her royal honors. Tills appears to have been Dr. Evans's notion, as expressed in the following lines: ‘But mark, of royal port and awful mien. Where moves with measure’d pace the insect queen!’ Twelve chosen guards, with slow and solemn gait, Bond at her nod, and round her person wait.’ Mr. Dunbar's observations, however, as well as those of Mr. Golding and myself, disprove this opinion. The queen has no regular guard, either when she traverses the combs or when she is stationary. In either case, us we have frequently observed, the working bees that happen to be near her, for the most part, turn their heads, towards her, after the manner of courtiers in the presence of royally, and wherever she moves clear the way to allow her to pass, or rather get hastily out of her way, forming a circle round hut never accompanying her. They occasionally, during her progress, fawn upon and caress her, touching her softly with their antenna. As she moves onward, till the bees, thro’ which she successively passes, pay her the same homage; those which in her track she leaves behind, close together, and resume their accustomed labors. This sort of homage is only paid to fertile queens; whilst they continue virgins, they receive no distinctive marks of respect. This fact was noticed by Huber, and it has several times fallen under my own observation. A very striking instance of it was remarked by Mr. Dunbar at the close of one of his experiments.— 'So long,' says he, 'as the queen which survived the rencounter with her rival remained a virgin, not the slightest degree of respect or attention was paid her by the bees; not one gave her food; she was obliged, as often as she required it, to help herself; and in crossing to the honey cells for that purpose, she had to scramble, often will difficulty, over the crowd, not an individual of which got out of her way, or seemed to care whether she fed or starved; but no sooner die she become a mother than the scene was changed,' and all testified towards her those affectionate attentions which are uniformly exhibited to ferule queens. 'Bees, when deprived of their queen, have the power of selecting one or more worker-eggs, or grubs, and convening them into queens, thus showing that there is no inherent difference in female ova. To effect this, each of the promoted grubs has a royal cell or cradle formed for it, by having three contiguous common cells thrown into one; two of the three grubs that occupy those cells are sacrificed, and the remaining one is liberally fed with loyal jelly. This royal, jelly is a pungent food prepared by the working bees exclusively for the purpose of feeding such of the larvae as are destined to become candidates for the honors of royalty, whether it be their lot to assume them or not. It is more stimulating than the food of ordinary bees, has not that mawkish taste, and is evidently acescent from the first. The royal larva are supplied with it rather profusely, and there is always some of it left in the cell after the transformation.' Best Wishes, Joe Waggle Historical Honeybee Articles Floriferis ut apes In saltibus omnia libant http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/HistoricalHoneybeeArticles/ ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 21:27:51 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?windows-1252?Q?Eric_Slayton?= Subject: ccd question Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I would like to ask if anyone has looked at insect growth regulators used in cattle to control flys as part of the problem in ccd. one of the most common ways it is fed is in molasses blocks and in minerals which bees would frequent both of them. Eric ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 07:46:49 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-2?Q?Emanuel=20Vesel=FD?= Subject: Norwegian invention? In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hallo from Czechia, What do you judge of this invention?: http://www.avisenagder.no/artikkel.asp?Artid=7801 I have as well problem with norwegian words: opphakkede ospekvister ospevirke thanks for opinion and explanation Emanuel Vesely Kasalice 40 ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 10:49:39 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Roger White Subject: Norwegian invention MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1253" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello, We will translate it for you later today and post it on this list. Best regards Roger White Cyprus. ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=3Dbee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 22:00:02 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: ALDEN MARSHALL Subject: Nosema and Propolis MIME-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankDoes anyone know the effects of propolis on the nosema spore? = Thinking it may have some control. Obviously all propolis' vary. Alden M. ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=3Dbee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 07:56:38 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Nosema and Propolis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This doesn't answer the question, but at a lecture at the National Honey Show last year the speaker (Steve Ryan I think) said (if my fallible memory serves) that the action of propolis in combatting bacteria was different to that of the usual antibiotics in that it didn't kill the bugs but enveloped them, preventing reproduction. If this is the case then the same mode of action might be effective against Nosema spores. Chris ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 13:32:21 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Nosema and Propolis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chris wrote: >... the action of propolis in combatting bacteria was different to that > of the usual antibiotics in that it didn't kill the bugs but enveloped > them, > preventing reproduction. > If this is the case then the same mode of action might be effective > against > Nosema spores. Perhaps more work is needed here? Anecdotal observation: Over the past two or three years we have been working hard to replace our mongrel stocks with A.m.m. Still plenty of work to do, but we are making good progress. The level of propolis use in our colonies has increased significantly. Last year I tested a number of batches of adult bees for nosema - but could not find a single spore. This is in contrast with the situation previously when spores could be found easily. Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers at stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 09:08:48 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Kirk_Jones?= Subject: feeding syrup to bees/pumps and tips Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello fellow beeks, I can add a few tips for pumping feed to the hives. We feed 80 to 96 hive yards set up with internal "division board" feeders with the feeder all set to the inside of the pallet. The whole process can be done in under 1/2 hour. It takes 5 seconds to pump a gallon+. Just shift the tops forward a wee bit to accommodate the gas station type nozzle of 1 inch diameter. They are available at Tractor Supplies (store) We have had very good success with a trash water pump. No bypass is necessary. We have just purchased a new pump from eBay that was delivered for a total of $200. It is a knockoff of a 6.5 HP Honda. The hoses and quick disconnects, which I highly recommend, are available at: Grand Traverse Rubber 985 W Commerce Dr Traverse City, MI , 49684-9376 Phone: 231-943-4477 FAX: 231-943-4987 I would recommend a two inch pickup hose that fits nicely on a tote. With disconnects you could change tanks, or put on a longer hose to pump out of barrels if needed. The totes have shutoffs. I would recommend a one and a quarter inch delivery hose. Any larger than that is unnecessary and too heavy for us. We use a 60 foot, but could go longer is needed. It is big enough to overcome friction problems. The whole setup is placed on a pallet. The only problem ever encountered is laying the hose over the muffler and melting a hole in it. (I hate it when that happens) Btw, we do also recommend diluting the feed at least 10%, even for fall feeding. We always add a bit of clorox to reduce any bacterial issues. We have also added Thymol for the same purposes with no adverse effects. Kirk www.sleepingbearfarms.com ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 17:11:39 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juanse Barros Subject: Worst drought in 70 years // Argentina Comments: To: A serious list for discerning beekeepers , honey_australia@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline The new is in spanish tough. http://www.primeraedicionweb.com.ar/index.php?idnoticia=6143&dgprincipal=nota But it states that Argentina is suffering the worst drought in 70 years. -- Juanse Barros J. APIZUR S.A. Carrera 695 Gorbea - CHILE +56-45-271693 08-3613310 http://apiaraucania.blogspot.com/ juanseapi@gmail.com ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 14:08:27 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Slade Subject: Re: Nosema and Propolis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter, Do you think it likely that your bees obtain their propolis from a single source or multiple sources? Chris ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 23:00:38 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Nosema and Propolis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chris > Do you think it likely that your bees obtain their propolis from a single > source or multiple sources? What a question! I have no idea, but would expect that bees would forage for propolis as they do for honey and pollen, i.e. over a wide area with multiple sources - provided, of course, that more than one source was available within flying range. Perhaps there are some studies that might help, but I have not seen any. Most of the literature on propolis that I have seen seems to concentrate on its medicinal properties (for humans). I also cannot claim to have seen bees collecting propolis, other than a bee that I once watched removing it from a glove (back in the days before I used rubber gloves and soda wash); I suspect that much of it comes from high up in trees where it would be difficult for us to observe the bees working. Best wishes Peter Edwards beekeepers at stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 17:27:16 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John & Christy Horton Subject: feeding syrup to bees/pumps and tips MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kirk wrote: > I can add a few tips for pumping feed to the hives. etc Kirk, what a concise,practical, and clear presentation of feeding. Thanks for the input! And for the others I havent mentioned, thanks too,all contained useful info. John Horton ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 20:31:23 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Ames Subject: Re: feeding syrup to bees/pumps and tips Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Kirk Do you have any issues with cold temps and the syrup being too stiff to pump in the fall? ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 23:22:24 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John Melquist Sr Subject: Re: Norwegian invention? In-Reply-To: <1675.3419-16572-63953537-1231829209@seznam.cz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Emanuel Veselý wrote: > > http://www.avisenagder.no/artikkel.asp?Artid=7801 > > > > > Was able to translate the article but was unable to get a translation for the material they were using. Does anyone know what ospekvister translates to? ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 08:04:02 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?B?QXJpIFNlcHDkbOQ=?= Subject: Re: Norwegian invention? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit ospekvister = aspen branches /twigs Ari Seppälä Finland ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 08:14:07 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?B?QXJpIFNlcHDkbOQ=?= Subject: Re: Nosema and Propolis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In the last Eurbee kongress in Belfast Vassaya Blankova from Bulgaria was a keynote speaker about typing propolis in order to have same effects in use for humans. So she had to look the origing plants of propolis in diffrerent areas. In Europe poplar is the main source of propolis in the areas where it exists. Ari Seppälä Finland - too cold for poplars, no idea where my propolis originates ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 06:20:32 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: T'N'T Apiaries Subject: Re: feeding syrup to bees/pumps and tips MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If you have the room you can add a hose reel. They can be salvaged off old fuel delivery trucks or some of the fire units (usually those which were set up for fighting grass fires). My neighbors is electric, but ours just takes a few cranks. Pump & reel can be attached on the same pallet. Ours is under a 5 ft drift or I would supply a photo. I know it was stated twice, but I think it can't be emphasised enough that you should want to use "trash" pumps. They are slightly more money, but make a huge difference when it comes to trouble free operation. >Do you have any issues with cold temps and >the syrup being too stiff to pump in the fall? I would be very reluctant to throw out a broad statement here. I know there are some pretty funky high fructose blends that beekeepers get their hands on. The outfit I worked for in California had one that became like creamed honey at room temp. The heat of the bees was enough to liquify it. It was fantastic for baby nucs (because you didn't drowned bees when you dumped them initially), but a real pain in the @#$ when some was accidently left in a truck tank (fortunately in those days tanks was metal and could withstand a blow torch). In our case, we use liguid sucrose @ 67.5 BRIX. We have circulated the bulk tank using a 3" Honda trash pump at 0C (32F). We cut it 10% to feed and have moved that at -5/6C (20-23F) with a 2" trash pump. Definitely slower than when temps are warmer, but still moves it along at a pretty good clip. David Tharle Ardmore, AB Canada After nearly a solid month of -25C to -40C, we may be heading to 0C for the weekend, yahoo!! ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 19:13:17 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Mike_Rippe?= Subject: Re: Norwegian invention? *Salicyl?* Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I'm no Norwegian translator, but here's what I gathered from the article: Retired Veterinarian thinks bees with Varroa might be similar to animals with mites. Folk remedy for animals with mites: use aspen bark (branches, leaves, or some other part???) Dude gets idea to try 'something old' in a new way; using chopped aspen twigs as a varroacide... finds that his hives survived (no, he's not a beekeeper, beehaver maybe?). Now has many hives: "this might be a cure". =) Hmm... Aspen bark/branches/twigs as a possible Varroacide? I'm pretty sure that Aspen bark contains high levels of Salicyl (similar to aspirin but not the same). I wonder if Salicylic alcohol or Salicylic compounds have been evaluated any kind of scientifically controlled test with Varroa? (un-related paper on allergens contained in Aspen) "Salicyl alcohol or 2-methylolphenol ...salicyl alcohol in aspen bark. ...salicyl alcohol, salicylaldehyde..., aspen wood dust and an extract prepared from the bark of aspen (Populus tremula). ...We analysed salicyl alcohol and salicylaldehyde in the bark extracts and found the 2 chemicals in equal amounts, about 0.9 µg/mg in aspen bark and in lower concentrations in rowan and the willows. ...Besides salicyl alcohol, salicylaldehyde is also recommended to be used to screen for contact allergy to aspen. Both of these chemicals should be tested in forest workers in areas where aspen is growing. " http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/118692752/abstract - Mike (well over his head here) ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 20:05:46 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Walter Zimmermann Subject: Re: Norwegian invention? *Salicyl?* MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Greetings Mike et al Consider the connection We treat for mites with Formic acid and Oxalic Acid Formic Acid is the simplest of the Carboxylic acids and it's liquid If one goes down the list of? the carboxylic acids one comes upon salicylic acid? and yes through a process called acetylation is transformed into ASA . You may remember your mother or others sprinkling salicylic acid crystals on top of jam etc before closing the freshly canned contents.? Also it's used in dishdetergents and sold as antibacterial. if you can imagine taking two of those molecules of formic acid and joining them then they turn into a powder and? are call dicarboxylic acids thus Oxalic acid being the first? in that class. Walter Ontario ________________________________________________________________________ New Music Releases - Free Full CD Listening Parties Every Week. Listen Now. http://music.aol.ca/full-cd-listening-party/?icid=AOLMUS00050000000045 ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 02:57:38 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juanse Barros Subject: Re: Norwegian invention? *Salicyl?* In-Reply-To: <8CB44C487EC1476-10D8-1268@WEBMAIL-MC13.sysops.aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline thus Oxalic acid being the first? in that class. Sorry my ignorance Walter, and just to get it straight, the question mark confuse me. Are you stating or are you questioning that Oxalic is the first dicarboxylic acids? Juanse Barros J. Carrera 695 Gorbea - CHILE +56-45-271693 08-3613310 http://apiaraucania.blogspot.com/ juanseapi@gmail.com ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 20:00:05 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Walter Weller Subject: Re: Norwegian invention? *Salicyl?* MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit When humans take salicylic acid it's usually called "aspirin". Walter in Louisiana ******************************************************* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * * http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l * *******************************************************